To Dycal, or Not To Dycal ?
J. Suljak & N. Scolieri
Vitrebond). If I've hit the pulp, I stop the bleeding with a drop of 35%
hydrogen peroxide (works great) and then apply the GIC base to seal the pulp
chamber.
My rationale to not use Dycal is based on what it turns into years down the
road: mush!
J Suljak
MZRDMD wrote in message <20000717214325...@ng-co1.aol.com>...
>I recently received correspondence via email from a regular poster to SMD
who
>says the current thinking is no dycal under composites. (no name, because
I
>didn't clear it with this person first, nothing personal, Dr. you-know-who)
If
>you want to ID yourself, go ahead. This question isn't about that, because
I
>can buy what I was told, and have cut the dycal out under the composites
>already.
>
>Anyway, what about under amalgams ? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS
>TURN INTO ANOTHER AMALGAM DEBATE !!!!! The bottom line is that I still do
>amalgams, and will continue to do them. Period.
>
>So, what is the current thinking about dycal under amalgams ?
>
>TIA,
>
>Dr. Mike
Craig A. Schlie, D.D.S.
Hydroxide and when it contacts tissues then shouldn't it ionize? If that is
the case then one should remember that the effect of a hydroxide on animal
tissues is to saponify them! [saponify is to hydrolyze (a fat) with alkali
to form a soap and glycerol]
Now this really made no sense to me while I was in school, about a million
years ago, and it still makes no sense. In fact it ranks right up there with
using copal varnish (the solvent is ether) which causes extreme desiccation
of the tooth.
My Best To You,
Craig A. Schlie, D.D.S.
"MZRDMD" <mzr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000717214325...@ng-co1.aol.com...
MZRDMD
Dr. Steve
Use it in a very thin layer only over the deepest part. Keep the CaOH
refined to as small a surface area as possible. Its benefit is
antibacterial, only.
--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan USA
sma...@home.msen.com
---------------------------------
.
MZRDMD <mzr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000717214325...@ng-co1.aol.com...
Nelson
I think you may be referring to me and I'm comfortable revealing my position
on this. Dr Steve's post is state of the art as I understand. I really
believe us dentists trained before the total etch technique were using dycal
under composites because it was new to acid etch and we were just worried
that it would hurt the pulp through the dentin AND, (the most important I
personally feel) is the early users of posterior resins or etched resins in
general noticed a high % of post op sensitivity, so we assumed the etch or
resin or both were irritating the pulp through the tubules so we covered the
dentin with dycal. (As I am writing this with the current knowledge we all
have, doesn't it sound silly?) Anyway, the Japanese started promoting the
idea of total etch. We Americans, of course, figuring nothing good could
come out of another country, especially Japan, dismissed it as heresy. A
few forward thinking docs started promoting it in the US and we nervously
put away our dycal and, guess what, we didn't kill the pulps with the acid,
in fact, less post op sensitivity! Wow! How could this be, it defies
logic. Well about this time if I remember correct, we finally agreed that
most post op sensitivity came from curing in bulk and the resin shrinking
away from the margin leaving literally a gap. Once we figured out the
"sandwich technique" and "incremental curing", we were getting great
posterior resin results and the rest is history.
As far as your question about under Amalgam, if I did amalgams, I would use
a bonded liner to seal the dentin and direct pulp cap etc and then place
the amalgam. A melding of the old and the new that helps the predictability
of the amalgam. Those that still do amalgam, what is your opinion of this?
Dr. Frank (my new anonymous handle)
Steven Fawks
I'm not shy about giving good advice. Now your composites are a little
faster and definitely stronger. I'll wager there are no sensitivity
problems either.
Like I said, one of the other guys will have to address the amalgam
issue since I haven't done one in 15 years (not because of mercury
issues either..I, and my patients just like composites better).
Best wishes,
Steve
>
> I recently received correspondence via email from a regular poster to SMD who
> says the current thinking is no dycal under composites. (no name, because I
> didn't clear it with this person first, nothing personal, Dr. you-know-who) If
> you want to ID yourself, go ahead. This question isn't about that, because I
> can buy what I was told, and have cut the dycal out under the composites
> already.
>
pon...@my-deja.com
.....
The Bluegill from Indy bytes on this post. The reparitave Physiology
of the dental pulp is one of my favorite subjects. At least we know
that spelling isn't one of them. But, I digress.
The injuries that that happen to the pulp are great and varied. The
reparative qualities of the pulp have a narrow window. Any thing that
widens this window will greatly increase the tooths chances of a good
prognosis. Rapid sanitation of the injured area is the foremost
technique in the protocall. Perfuse bleeding from the exposure site is
best addressed with endodontic protocalls. Mechanical and carious
exposures are two different things.Carious lesions that do-not envolve
the pulp in some way get better desensitization with good technique and
material selection. Calcium hydroxide is not the only way to go. I do
use USP CaOH2 as a styptic for pulpal exposure. One can get the same
effect with a hot ball burnesher as 35% H2O2 when cauterizing a pulp
bleeder. I had an assistant pour some of the peroxide on me in the army
and it was not an experience I care to repeat.
The modern Resins out there today makes the use of dycal less and less
prevelant.
As for under alloys, Poly carboxilates, poly flouro carboxilates, glass
filled polycarboxilates and such are what I use. Then I put a layer of
copal varnish on it to get a corosion layer on the alloy. I find that
for big restorations, resin and resin and etched metals hold up better
than alloys.
Calcium Hydroxide is a good bacteriostatic agent and it does stimulate
secondary denten. Burnishing it into the tubules then cleaning the area
with a cotton pleget will provide a surface that will accept dentin
bonding. This will give the same effect as Dycal and provide a better
foundation for your restoration of choice.
Valio Vali
Pontic
MZRDMD <mzr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000717214325...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> > I recently received correspondence via email from a regular poster
to SMD
> who
> > says the current thinking is no dycal under composites. (no name,
because
> I
> > didn't clear it with this person first, nothing personal, Dr.
> you-know-who) If
> > you want to ID yourself, go ahead. This question isn't about that,
> because I
> > can buy what I was told, and have cut the dycal out under the
composites
> > already.
> >
> > Anyway, what about under amalgams ? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT
LET
> THIS
> > TURN INTO ANOTHER AMALGAM DEBATE !!!!! The bottom line is that I
still do
> > amalgams, and will continue to do them. Period.
> >
> > So, what is the current thinking about dycal under amalgams ?
> >
> > TIA,
> >
> > Dr. Mike
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
pon...@my-deja.com
"Annemarie" <a...@post10.tele.dk> wrote:
> Danish researchers, for permanent fillings, recommend Dycal only under
> amalgam and only in points where the remaining dentine is so thin
that the
> red color of the pulp faintly shines through. Nothing under
composites.
>
> Otherwise it is only recommended for indirect pulp dressing, that is
when
> one doesn't finish excavation of caries for fear of perforation to
the pulp
> chamber. In this case, partial excavation is done (borders and "safe"
areas
> are completely excavated, deep places are excavated as far as one
judges one
> can without perforation, and Dycal is applied, on top of that a
> semi-permanent filling (for example glas ionomer). Complete
excavation is
> then attempted in approx. three months time.
>
> Annemarie
>
> MZRDMD skrev i meddelelsen <20000717214325.14392.00001181@ng-
co1.aol.com>...
Dr. Frank from AZ, USA
Dr. F
<pon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8l2k85$eb9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> to SMD
> > who
> > > says the current thinking is no dycal under composites. (no name,
> because
> > I
> > > didn't clear it with this person first, nothing personal, Dr.
Dr. Steve
Last research article I looked at said the stimulation of odontoblastic
action is not directly attributable to CaOH.
--
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
Troy, Michigan USA
sma...@home.msen.com
---------------------------------
.
Annemarie <a...@post10.tele.dk> wrote in message
news:8l2n8p$5km$1...@news.inet.tele.dk...
| I believe that the effect is also stimulation of odontoblasts for
tertiere
| dentine formation. (I know that tertiere word is not the right one in
| English, I hope you understand anyway!)
| Annemarie
|
| Dr. Steve skrev i meddelelsen ...
| >Last report I saw recommended using CaOH only when very close to the
pulp.
| >Use it in a very thin layer only over the deepest part. Keep the CaOH
| >refined to as small a surface area as possible. Its benefit is
| >antibacterial, only.
| >
| >--
| >Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
| >Troy, Michigan USA
| >sma...@home.msen.com
| > ---------------------------------
| >.
Louis Core
Maryland was advocating actually leaving decay under deep restorations, rather than
excavating all the way down to the pulp, and permananently filling. No need to do
an indirect pulp cap and excavating later. His premise was exactly the point made
in your post, that the acid pH of Dycal will arrest the decay. (At this point, half
the audience left the room!) But I have never done this, as I am unsure how deep
into the decay the pH will be bactericidal and for how long.
Have anybody seen his research and do any of you do this? If so, how are the
results?
Annemarie
amalgam and only in points where the remaining dentine is so thin that the
red color of the pulp faintly shines through. Nothing under composites.
Otherwise it is only recommended for indirect pulp dressing, that is when
one doesn't finish excavation of caries for fear of perforation to the pulp
chamber. In this case, partial excavation is done (borders and "safe" areas
are completely excavated, deep places are excavated as far as one judges one
can without perforation, and Dycal is applied, on top of that a
semi-permanent filling (for example glas ionomer). Complete excavation is
then attempted in approx. three months time.
Annemarie
MZRDMD skrev i meddelelsen <20000717214325...@ng-co1.aol.com>...
Annemarie
dentine formation. (I know that tertiere word is not the right one in
English, I hope you understand anyway!)
Annemarie
Dr. Steve skrev i meddelelsen ...
>Last report I saw recommended using CaOH only when very close to the pulp.
>Use it in a very thin layer only over the deepest part. Keep the CaOH
>refined to as small a surface area as possible. Its benefit is
>antibacterial, only.
>
>--
>Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
>Troy, Michigan USA
>sma...@home.msen.com
> ---------------------------------
>.
>MZRDMD <mzr...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20000717214325...@ng-co1.aol.com...
DrCnBseen
You wrote:
<< I recently received correspondence via email from a regular poster to SMD
who
says the current thinking is no dycal under composites. (no name, because I
didn't clear it with this person first, nothing personal, Dr. you-know-who) If
you want to ID yourself, go ahead. This question isn't about that, because I
can buy what I was told, and have cut the dycal out under the composites
already.>>
You might be interested in my perception of Dr. Leinfelder's thought on this.
In essence third handed. This concerns composite restorations. Upon
excavating the final remains of caries (instead of risking an exposure on an
asymptotic tooth) stop short. Leave a layer of caries, place dycal over this
small carious lesion. The dycal with its high pH acts as a bactericidal. This
is something bis GMA cannot do by itself. Than place a well sealed composite
restoration. If done correctly the dual properties of the bactericidal effects
of the dycal and the lack of leakage due to the bonded seal of the composite
have are symbiotic. The premise of using dycal as a bactericidal makes sense.
Does it work? I am not sure, but I sure do respect Carl.
Long live dycal,
Stan
Dr. Frank from AZ, USA
basic pH disinfects.
Dr Frank
Dr. Steve <sma...@home.msen.com> wrote in message
news:JZ6d5.5$eu1...@nntp.msen.com...
> Tertiary???
>
> Last research article I looked at said the stimulation of odontoblastic
> action is not directly attributable to CaOH.
>
> Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
> Troy, Michigan USA
> sma...@home.msen.com
> ---------------------------------
> .
> tertiere
> | dentine formation. (I know that tertiere word is not the right one in
> | English, I hope you understand anyway!)
> | Annemarie
> |
> | Dr. Steve skrev i meddelelsen ...
> | >Last report I saw recommended using CaOH only when very close to the
> pulp.
> | >Use it in a very thin layer only over the deepest part. Keep the CaOH
> | >refined to as small a surface area as possible. Its benefit is
> | >antibacterial, only.
> | >
> | >--
> | >Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.
> | >Troy, Michigan USA
> | >sma...@home.msen.com
> | > ---------------------------------
> | >.
> | >MZRDMD <mzr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> | >news:20000717214325...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> SMD
> | >who
> | >| says the current thinking is no dycal under composites. (no name,
> | >because I
> | >| didn't clear it with this person first, nothing personal, Dr.
> | >you-know-who) If
> | >| you want to ID yourself, go ahead. This question isn't about that,
> | >because I
> | >| can buy what I was told, and have cut the dycal out under the
> composites
> | >| already.
> | >|
pon...@my-deja.com
"Dr. Frank from AZ, USA" <pit...@ctaz.com> wrote:
> You are correct, Steve. Disproven a while ago. Theory how it worked?
> basic pH disinfects.
> Dr Frank
>
is not enough healthy primary dentin in the pulpcap area then the
prognosis is poor. An intact tubular matrix that is relitavely bacteria
free and sealed is the best condition under which the pulp can repair
it self. Otherwise you are better off using eugenol.
Valio Vali
Pontic
Annemarie
Annemarie
excavation three months later. I think I do this about three or four times a
month, and maybe one or two of these the whole year through ends up in root
treatment.
Annemarie
DrCnBseen skrev i meddelelsen <
Annemarie
??
Annemarie
Louis Core skrev i meddelelsen <39752CA1...@uswest.net>...
Louis Core
Annemarie wrote:
> I thought Dycal was basic, not acidic
> ??
> Annemarie
It is. I am just stupid like that sometimes.
Louis
Frank Nelson
I don't use the dycal and I just use the GI if I am not sure and I get about
the same results. I think we think we have more control than we actually
do. I personally think disinfection is the real key here, not material. I
use Chlorhexidine to cleanse the cavity before placing the GI and of course
use the conditioner (polyacrylic acid) before placing the GI. This is an
outstanding use of Fuji IX and miracle mix.
Regards
Dr Frank
Annemarie wrote in message <8l4pq9$cv$1...@news.inet.tele.dk>...
pon...@my-deja.com
"Frank Nelson" <pit...@ctaz.com> wrote:
> hello Annemarie,
> I don't use the dycal and I just use the GI if I am not sure and I
get about
> the same results. I think we think we have more control than we
actually
> do. I personally think disinfection is the real key here, not
material.
Amen brother Frank
I
> use Chlorhexidine- Allergic to a few- distilled sterile water is just
as bacteriocidal at that level. It also is kinder to the collagen
fibers. Hypotonics kill bacteria that have cell walls fast. Hypotonic
solutions also turn off growth stimulaters in bacteria; while diluting
the intercellular spaces in tissue causing increased chemotaxis. I
don't think one really needs to "soap" down the prep before filling.
Isolated resivoir distilled water systems are great for this. It's an
easy upgrade too.
Valio vali
Pontic
to cleanse the cavity before placing the GI and of course
> use the conditioner (polyacrylic acid) before placing the GI. This
is an
> outstanding use of Fuji IX and miracle mix.
That's why they call it Miricle Mix
Joel M. Eichen
>Danish researchers, for permanent fillings, recommend Dycal only under
>amalgam and only in points where the remaining dentine is so thin that the
>red color of the pulp faintly shines through. Nothing under composites.
In America,
Dycal researchers, for permanent fillings, recommend Danish only under
amalgam. The reason is that Calcium Hydroxide (dycal) looks like
Danish after a couple of years. That is cheese danish.
Annemarie
know Fuji I, II, and LC
Annemarie
Frank Nelson skrev i meddelelsen ...
>hello Annemarie,
>I don't use the dycal and I just use the GI if I am not sure and I get
about
>the same results. I think we think we have more control than we actually
>do. I personally think disinfection is the real key here, not material. I
>use Chlorhexidine to cleanse the cavity before placing the GI and of course
>use the conditioner (polyacrylic acid) before placing the GI. This is an
>outstanding use of Fuji IX and miracle mix.
Derrick Wang DMD
Vitrebond). If I've hit the pulp, I stop the bleeding with a drop of 35%
hydrogen peroxide (works great) and then apply the GIC base to seal the pulp
chamber.
Good point!
I don't know, but I think the only thing that Dycal maybe good for is to use it
as temp cement!