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Laura Lee Interview with George Meinig, DDS & Dr. M. LaMarche

Cavitations & Root Canals

The following is an interview from the Laura Lee Show on radio that
has been edited of news and commercials. For a complete listing of
over 200 interviews on cassette as well as selected videos and books,
write to Laura Lee, P.O. Box 3010, Bellevue, Washington 98009,
or call the hotline at 1-800-243-1438 for the newest listings.

Laura Lee: Have you ever looked at fossil remains of dinosaurs or
those of early man and noticed those rows and rows of perfect teeth
still intact? Have you ever wondered why modern man can't seem to get
through a lifetime with all his teeth intact, it doesn't seem fair
does it? What are we doing wrong? No doubt you've heard and we have
covered in depth on this show the problems arising from
mercury and silver amalgams. It's so well known in fact that 50% of
the over 1,000,000 amalgams placed in teeth of Americans today
are composites. A new material that doesn't contain mercury. You
probably thought that mercury was the big issue and that now you
know about it you're safe in terms of what's safe in your mouth. I'm
sorry, but there's more. There's much, much more. And we have
tonight two gentlemen who are experts in their field in some of the
newest research, actually it's old research, but it's just getting the
attention today that it deserves. And that is problems with root
canals; apparently there are bacteria that can be harbored in root
canals
no matter how perfectly they're done. These bacteria mutate and become
toxin factories, they can get out into the bloodstream and cause
degenerative diseases or make them worse. Also cavitation is a new
term you're going to learn tonight and that is the space left in the
jawbone when a tooth is extracted. If an infected tooth or simply a
wisdom tooth that needs to come out to make space, problems can
arise with dead tissue in the jawbone and you're going to learn
tonight what you can do about these conditions. We have with us Dr.
George Meinig, the author of Root Canal Cover-up. It's a book that
details this work from the 1920's done by Dr. Westin Price.
Research that has been done recently and confirmed. He's a specialist
in root canals and a dentist. We also have with us Dr. Michael
LaMarche. He's a dentist that is in practice today specializing in
mercury removal. He has worked closely with Dr. Hal Huggins who's a
leading researcher into mercury toxicity and silver dental amalgams
and also Dr. LaMarche is one of 13 dentists selected nationwide
selected for research into cavitations. And we're going to find out
some very important and useful information tonight.

Welcome Dr. Meinig.

Dr. Meinig: Thank you very much, Laura.

Laura Lee: And welcome Dr. LaMarche.

Dr. LaMarche: Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here.

Laura Lee: Thank you for all the work that you two have been doing in
this. I know that people who are plagued with degenerative
diseases, people who want to avoid those conditions, people whose
health is delicate don't need any extra assaults on the immune
system. And this research is quite startling when you first hear about
it. It begins to make more and more sense when you look into it.
Let's start with you Dr. Meinig, tell us a bit about the problems with
root canals, your research and why do we even have infected teeth?
That's a question we'll get to - prevention - at the end of our
discussion tonight, but what is a root canal, let's define some terms.
What
has been some of the research?

Dr. Meinig: Let me start out by saying that I am one of the 19
founding members of the root canal association, so the people out
there
don't get the idea that I have no background in the...

Laura Lee: Did I not mention that? I'm sorry, that was in my notes.

Dr. Meinig: And it's important for you to know that because I'm going
to be saying some things critical about root canal treatment today.
And the reason is that I practiced some 47 years and in all of that
time I never heard about a 25-year research program that was
conducted by Dr. Westin Price in the early 1900's and actually before
then and it was finally published in 1923. His work was all well
documented in two volumes of 1174 pages and in 25 articles that appear
in the medical and dental literature. Now what he reported and
what he found with the tests which involved some 5,000 animals over
the 25 year period was root canal distilled teeth, no matter how
good they looked, or how free they were from symptoms, always remained
infected. Now that's a shocker, and it's one that many
dentists don't want to believe because many of the things that we do
as an endodontist involve large areas of bone loss at the end of a
root of the tooth and when you do the root canal filling you see that
bone fills in with new bone and how could that dentist and that
patient ever think that there could still be infection in that tooth?
And the problem is that the infection occurs in what is known as the
dentin of the tooth. The dentin involves 95% of all of the tooth
substance and surprisingly, although it's almost as hard as enamel
when
it's cut with a drill it makes a shrill noise just like if you were
cutting stone, and you would think it was a very hard solid substance.
Surprisingly it's composed of little tiny tubules, and those tubules
are so small that if we took our smallest front tooth and stretched it
out
- stretched those tubules out end to end - it would stretch out for a
distance of 3 miles. Now what happens is when you get a cavity in a
tooth and the decay gets into the dentin of the tooth the bacteria
that are involved in the decay process get into those tubules. I
should tell
you that initially those tubules carry a fluid and that that fluid
carries nutriments and the nutriments in those dentin tubules keep the
tooth
alive and healthy. And those nutriments come from the nerve and the
blood vessels that come into the root canal of the tooth. And so
fundamentally what happens when you get a deep cavity and it exposes
the nerve of the tooth, those bacteria get into all of those dentin
tubules and they remain in there causing infection and eventually they
can escape and that's a story in itself. They can escape in what's
known as the lateral canals and there toxins can actually escape
directly through the root surface into what's called the peridontal
membrane or ligament. This is a hard fibrous tissue which holds the
tooth in the bony socket, and when the infection gets into there it
transfers easily into the bony socket and from there the bacteria and
the bacterial toxins can get into the surrounding bone and the blood
supply of that surrounding bone. And now this acts much like cancer
cells, you know cancer cells metastasize and that means that they
travel around the body in the bloodstream and they get to another
tissue, gland or organ and they set up a new cancer. Well these
bacteria from infected dentin tubules also travel around and
metastasize in the same way and they can get into the various tissue.
Those
bacteria are kind of like people, you know, if they get to like
Seattle or Reno or someplace they decide that's where they're going to
have
their home, well the bacteria traveling around the body, they may get
to the liver, the kidneys or the heart or the eyes or some other
tissue and they set up an infection in that area. So this is exactly
what happens and why the degenerative diseases occur from these teeth.

Laura Lee: Now why isn't the immune system not able to knock out these
bacteria when they get outside the tooth? I can understand
three miles of tunnels in these microtubules of an infected tooth for
these bacteria to propagate in. It's hard for the immune system to get
in there, but once they travel out, what's the immune system doing
there? Just a slow wear and tear where they can't get rid of the
infection sites so it's this constant default...?

Dr. Meinig: Well, you're right, the immune system under certain
circumstances can take care of this quite adequately, but it has to be
those people who have extremely good genetic backgrounds who are in
good nutrition basis, are having no health problems, in their daily
life.

Laura Lee: Now, who in the late 20th century can make that claim with
all the assaults on our systems.

Dr. Meinig: That's right, Laura, there's not very many that can make
that claim. Now if there are some people, and Dr. Price found that
258 of his patients met that requirement, he found they could stand
root canals for many years without any difficulty until they had a
severe accident, until they got a case of the flu, they had some
severe stress to them, and now their immune system which was able to
cope with these bacteria and these toxins of the bacteria now had too
much to do and they could no longer cope and this person would
develop a disease in their liver, their kidneys, their eyes, their
brain, their whatever, just the same as a cancer metastasizing around
this
would happen to them in degenerative disease situation.

Laura Lee: When we come back let's talk a little bit about Dr. Price's
original research. This research went on for five decades or so not
being recognized. He was first doing this in the 209. It went for a
long long time not really being recognized, though he was part of the
establishment of his day, he did legitimate research, he wrote
volumes, it's well-documented, he did the proper laboratory
experiments,
etc. etc. And yet it's counter intuitive to what dentists observe, or
how we thought the mouth worked, or bacteria in the immune system
worked. So I'd like to know what's the original research, I know he
did a lot with rabbits, it's pretty startling research, it's dramatic
research. Let's talk about that and how it went on for so long and you
said there was a cover-up involved. We've got more to talk about
with Dr. George Meinig, the author of Root Canal Cover-up and Dr.
Michael LaMarche that's going to tell us a bit about cavitations. I'm
Laura Lee.

Michael, you were telling me in the break that your description of
your practice in dentistry is now encompassing so much more that you
now describe it as biologically compatible dentistry. Could you define
that term and then we'll...

Dr. LaMarche: Yes, basically our practice has changed and to say that
our focus was strictly on amalgam removal would not be correct.
I think we're more focused on the nutritional aspects of an individual
in conjunction with blood chemistries and also working very closely
with physicians for the patient's general overall health. Certainly we
are concerned with heavy metals in our patients but to say that
would be our major concern and focus would...

Laura Lee: Well, I'm one of your patients and I know that you look at
the system as a holistic system and that the role that dental health
plays in that segues into so many other areas so I think you're the
dentist of the future and that you're looking at the whole system of
the
person, the entire health of the person, and that interplays, yes
indeed. Thank you for making that correction. And you'll also find Dr.
LaMarche in Lake Stevens, Washington. Dr. Meinig, you were going to
tell us about Westin Price's work in the 1920's - how he even
happened onto the thought that root canals might be a stress on the
immune system.

Dr. Meinig: Before I mention that I should say that all of this is
really dealing with the theory of local infection. Focal infection
means
that you can have an infection somewhere in the body and that the
bacteria that are involved may be transferred to another tissue,
gland,
or organ somewhere in the body and set up a whole new infection. Most
of this was started by Dr. Billings in the first decade of this
century and by 1914 his research had showed that 958 of all focal
infections came from teeth and from tonsils. The others came from a
few other sources like infected sinuses, fingernails, toenails,
appendices and so on. But what happened is that of course Dr. Price
learned
about all of this work and he had done a root canal filling for a
woman who developed a severe arthritic condition. She was so bad that
she was bedridden most of the time and her hands were so swollen with
arthritis that she could hardly feed herself. And when he heard
about all of this focal infection work by Billings he realized that
maybe this root fill that he did that looked so fine on the X-rays was
part
of her problem in causing this arthritis. And so like all research
programs in which researchers get involved, there's usually one that
sets
of the tone and this case happened to be the one that captured
everybody's imagination. There were a lot of others, but this one did,
and
the reason was that he finally convinced her that she should have that
tooth removed and she came into his office, had the tooth
removed aseptically incidentally, because if he contaminates the tooth
when he's taking it out with the saliva and other things then that's a
problem of introducing other bacteria into the situation.

Laura Lee: Also couldn't do a proper lab test on it.

Dr. Meinig: So he did that and he secured a laboratory animal and in
this case it was a rabbit and he put a little local anesthetic under
the
skin of the back of the rabbit. He made a small buttonhole incision
into the skin of the rabbit and he put that extracted root canal
filled
tooth into that incision. He put a couple of little stitches in there
to hold the tooth, to keep it from popping out again and he returned
the
animal to a spacious cage that had plenty of good food and awaited
development. Well it didn't take long, two days later that rabbit
developed the same arthritis in its limbs that the patient had and in
ten days it passed away from the infection from that root filled
tooth.
Well now this was somewhat of a confirmation for Dr. Price that people
who had root canal filled teeth and had illnesses that the medical
profession was having difficulty in solving - that maybe these root
filled teeth were causing those problems, and so whenever he had
people who were going from doctor to doctor and not finding out what
was wrong with them, he would then advise them to have any
root filled teeth out and he would implant the tooth under the skin of
the rabbit or they used numbers of other animals, but rabbits
proved to be a little more dramatic, but the same thing happened
whether it was a dog or a rat or a chipmunk or whatever they used,
these same diseases would occur. Well the surprising thing was when
the patient with a heart condition came in and had a root filled
tooth and wasn't getting anywhere with his treatment and they took
that root filled tooth and implanted it under the skin of a rabbit, by
golly, that rabbit got a heart condition and usually passed away
within a few days. If the person had kidney trouble, well the rabbit
got
kidney trouble. And if the person had trouble with their eyes, well
the rabbit got trouble with the eyes. As a matter of fact the eyes
reacted so severely that even minor problems with the patient's eyes
would cause the rabbit to go blindusually in two to three days. And
so there were a lot of different situations and almost any disease
that you might think of they eventually transferred from a patient
through the root filled tooth into another laboratory animal.

Laura Lee: So what's the theory with the focal infection? Why is it
there's the connection with the infected tooth and that problem area
in another part of the body?

Dr. Meinig: Well, the reason that this is a focal infection is because
the infection came from the tooth and traveled from the tooth to the
heart or the kidneys or the lungs or some area of the body and it set
up a new infection.

Laura Lee: Right, but certain bacteria that is human transferred to an
animal, say rabbit, that same bacteria will not just accidentally go
attack the liver, it will attack the eyes.

Dr. Meinig: Yes.

Laura Lee: It's destined for that one organ. How do you explain that?

Dr. Meinig: Price I'm sure was not able to explain that either, it was
a big surprise to them to think that almost always the same disease
occurred. Sometimes it wasn't exactly the same, but it was usually the
same tissue. But most of the time it was actually the same disease
and what he did in order to prove these things in those days - he
realized he might insert his own thinking into what was happening and
so what he did very often was to repeat experiments because they
didn't know double-blind business, but he did know enough about it,
so what he did was he transferred...

Laura Lee: We'll get the rest of this when we come back with DR,
George Meinig and Dr. Michael LaMarche. And you thought it was
just mercury in your mouth that was a problem. I'm Laura Lee, we'll be
right back on the Laura Lee Show.

And we are back, hi. Dr. George Meinig and Dr. Michael LaMarche are
with us in studio tonight. The topic, root canals and the problem
with bacteria that get trapped inside the microtubules of the tooth,
of an infected tooth, can migrate throughout the body, they can infect
an organ, gland or tissue, they can damage the heart, kidneys, joints,
eyes, brain. They can even endanger pregnant women. These
infections were first discovered by a 25 year root canal research
program carried out by the American Dental Association. Dr. Meinig
says this research was secretly covered up. It's been re-examined and
redone recently and here's the story. Let's start taking some phone
calls from Martin up first from Portland, Oregon. Hi, Martin.

Martin: Hello, Laura Lee. Yeah this is kind of a personal topic for
me, about 15 years ago I heard a report from the University of Texas
Medical School at Waco. They had a 6ve-year study where they
demonstrated that 1,000 milligrams of vitamin C per day would prevent
periodontal disease. Well then shortly thereafter my cat came down
with distemper so I cured him over a period of ten days using 500
mg. of vitamin C per day. And about two years after that I was
diagnosed by my dentist whom I had been going to for a long time, with
pretty serious periodontal disease. And he X-rayed my whole mouth
upper and lower, showed me all the pockets and everything I had
and he sectioned my teeth of into two upper and three lower and did
the scraping on the first section lower, the worst part first. Well I
was so frightened and saw that there was going to be such a tremendous
amount of expense to me that I immediately started taking
15,000 mg per day for the next four months. He x-rayed my teeth at the
end of the third month and he said "You know something's
happening here, the number of pockets you have and the size of those
pockets is rapidly diminishing" 90 he wanted to re-X-ray just to
verify this, so he did and it showed that some of the smaller pockets
had completely gone away and the larger pockets were reduced by
less than half their previous size only three months before. And he
was amazed and he asked me what I had been doing, and I said I had
simply been taking 15,000 mg of vitamin C every day - 5,000 with each
meal. And other than that I hadn't changed my diet or done
anything else. Does your guest have any experience using vitamin C for
therapy?

Laura Lee: Well, they are looking into nutrition and the impact it has
on health overall. Dr. Meinig...

Dr. Meinig: Well a third of my practice is actually periodontal
disease. You said that I was a specialist in endodontics but I
preferred to
do all of dentistry and about a third of practice was periodontal
disease. I never had any patient do 15,000 mg of vitamin C, I got many
of them on vitamin C, but not that much, and your discovery is a very
interesting one and I'm going to advise a few people to try that
and let's see what happens with them. I can't say that I've had
experience to that extent with anybody.

Laura Lee: I would say that you'd want to get the plaque and
everything else scraped off your teeth and give yourself a head start.
Don't
do it instead of.

Dr. Meinig: That's right. Absolutely it's important that you get all
of the deposits removed, otherwise.... Incidentally those infections
from
periodontal pockets are as serious as root canal filled teeth are, so
it's very important that you know that.

Martin: Well, just recently I had had a relapse where one of my front
teeth has been pressed back partly out of the jawbone as far as
support is concerned and developed a pretty serious periodontal pocket
because I used an infected dental floss, well I hadn't used a
brand new one, I used one I used a couple of days previous and
apparently the food had become contaminated and it infected the lower
gum, down the root line below the gum. And I developed a pretty
serious pus pocket down there which it took about three days to clean
out physically, but then I merely started taking high doses of vitamin
C and within about 2 weeks the gums are completely cleared up
and developed a more reddish color and the tooth was much firmer in
the gum than it had been before. Also, ginkgo can have some of
the same effect as far as helping a person of middle age or older to
develop much stronger teeth, you know as far as being rooted in the
jawbone and help their gums .

Laura Lee: Thanks for that story, we appreciate that Martin. Also,
let's go back to the research that Dr. Westin Price had done you were
saying you were going to explain another aspect of it.

Dr. Meinig: Well, we were talking about the fact that he didn't know
about double-blind studies and what he did instead. He knew that
he could introduce his own thinking into what he was doing and so he
repeated a lot of things. For instance he had a patient who had
kidney trouble and had a root filled tooth. He removed that tooth, put
it under the skin of a rabbit, the rabbit got kidney trouble and died
within a few days. He took the tooth out of that rabbit, surgically of
course, and washed it in soap and water, disinfected it with a
disinfectant and put it under the skin of another rabbit and that
rabbit got kidney trouble and passed away. He then took that tooth out
of
that rabbit and put it in another rabbit and he repeated that 30
times.

Laura Lee: The same tooth?

Dr. Meinig: That's right. The same root filled tooth. Now the reason
he did that was that he had to prove to himself and to the world that
this infection was able to be transferred and the only way he knew it
was to do more animals and it wasn't that he disliked rabbits, in fact
he took very good care of his rabbits, but this was one way he could
do something about it. Now one of the things that happens with
these root filled teeth is that when they are removed it is very often
that periodontal membrane that is infected and the surrounding bony
socket remains in the jaw and sometimes healing gets rid of that but
many times it doesn't. And what happens then is an infection that
occurs in the jawbone and I think we should turn this over to Dr.
LaMarche because he's going to be telling you something about that
phase of things.

Laura Lee: And the term cavitation. Dr. LaMarche...

Dr. LaMarche: Well cavitation actually is a cavity within the bone
which was formerly occupied by a tooth. I think it's important that
our
listeners know that our office is one of 30 in the United States,
Canada and Europe that have been selected to participate in a research
group called the North American NICO Research Group. NICO is an
acronym - Neuralgia Inducing Cavitational Osteonecrosis. Which is
another word for dead bone, actually it literally means a cavity
within the jaw that is lined with dead bone that causes pain. Our
research
group was formed by Dr. Jerry Eboco who is an oral pathologist in West
Virginia, and he began researching this extensively in I believe
early '90s. Papers have been written on it since the '80s, and more
recently he's been pursuing this and he gathered together a group of
dentists so that we could make the connection between trigeminal
neuralgia, atypical facial pain, chronic migraine headaches and
cavitations. And what we have found in addition to this is when
cavitations are removed, not only do we find that these trigeminal
neuralgia's or this pain is relieved, but we find that patients also
realize other improvements within their systemic health.

Laura Lee: How do you remove a cavitation, what do you mean by that?
Remove the dead bone?

Dr. LaMarche: Well, cavitations do not show up extremely well on
X-ray, but when they are located and maybe a little bit later we can
describe how we locate them, but a cavitation is...an incision is made
in the gum tissue over where a tooth was formerly located, a large
enough area or flap is laid so that the gum is removed from the bone
and we are allowed to penetrate the cortical plate or the bone
overlying the cavitation. The dental instrument, in this case a drill,
will actually fall through the bone and into this cavity. Before we
clean
it out, however, we go in with an instrument called a curette and
scrape it very thoroughly and we submit this sample to the
pathologist.

Laura Lee: What kind of lab results do you often get?

Dr. LaMarche: Well, I would say that probably 98% and even larger than
98% what we find is what's called ischemic osteonecrosis, it's
bone death due to poor perfusion of oxygen or blood supply to a local
area. The cavitations are lined with dead bone, the body's
response to that is to...

Laura Lee: Seal it off!

Dr. LaMarche: Seal it off, it does that with fat, we will find fat in
there. Ultimately the fat becomes calcified so we see what's called
calcific fat necrosis. We will sometimes see chronic inflammatory
cells, however that is not the hallmark of this disease, as a matter
of
fact we see few inflammatory cells - many times we'll see bacteria
colonies, toxide filaments, within these specimens. I think another
very interesting thing that we have learned from this through our
biopsying is that the pathologist will identify what he terms fibrin
sludging. That is the fibrin will actually start pooling.

Laura Lee: What is fibrin?

Dr. LaMarche: It is the part of the clotting factor and there is some
proteins - C proteins, S proteins...

Laura Lee: From blood that was in there when the tooth was pulled?

Dr. LaMarche: Exactly. What happens is the blood initially comes into
the site but because of the body's inability to break down the clot
or because of the body's ability to make a very tenacious clot - one
has either what's called thrombopheha or hypofibrinolysis. Laura
Lee: Whichever it is, it doesn't sound nice.

Dr. LaMarche: Either one of them, one of them is a very tenacious clot
or an inability to break the clot down, consequently nothing gets
in, nothing gets out, we have bone death.

Laura Lee: Why does it happen in the jaw bone 98% of the time? If
someone breaks their leg bone, that bone heals up nicely in most
instances. Why does the body have more trouble with the jaw bone tooth
extractions than say other parts of the body?

Dr. LaMarche: That's a very good question. I believe that when a bone
is broken and two pieces are put together that's a different kind
of...

Laura Lee: There's no space left.

Dr. LaMarche: Exactly, however what has been done in the Jewish
Hospital in Cincinatti, a Dr. Glick, MD has made a direct correlation
between the head of the femur, people fracturing the head of the
femur, that osteonecrosis or bone death is identical to that which we
find in the jaws.

Laura Lee: Because that's a more solid part of the bone, a denser part
of the bone? What is it about that site?

Dr. LaMarche: I would say that probably it has more to do

with the circulation to the area.

Laura Lee: Okay.

Dr. LaMarche: Again, osteonecrosis as we see it is defined as ischemic
osteonecrosis and ischemic implies that it is a lack of perfusion of
blood to the site.

Laura Lee: In both cases it's a lack of oxygen that leads to the
mutation of the bacteria, they go from being aerobic to being
anaerobic
bacteria in root canal instances. And here you find a lack of oxygen
to the site so there is a common factor. How often do you find
where you take out an infected tooth, say a root canal tooth, either
it's infected and you say I don't want to put a root canal in, let's
pull
it and do other options, or it's a root canal infected tooth that you
pull - probably you're going to have necrotic tissue arising because
it's
so full of bacteria, or that compared to say a wisdom tooth that needs
to be pulled for other reasons, it's not infected or impacted - it
just
needs to get taken out.

Dr. LaMarche: That's what we're now recommending no matter why you
have to take a tooth out - even if it isn't infected, then a
protocol needs to be followed and that protocol means that the dentist
after he removes the tooth he also removes the periodontal
ligament or membrane which is a fibrous tissue that holds the tooth in
the socket, that's what keeps the tooth from failing out. That
becomes infected and it's still attached very securely to the
surrounding bony socket and so what we recommend is that the dentist
go in
with a slow moving drill and remove that periodontal membrane and
about 1 mm of the bony socket in order to prevent these infections
from occurring. And strangely enough we find in many areas for
instance, wisdom teeth when they're removed, even though they were
healthy teeth - for some reason or another they very often develop a
cavitation around them. Some 400/0 of all wisdom teeth extractions
develop cavitations and the thing that should be done and what we're
thinking is better to be done, is to remove that periodontal
membrane at the time you remove the tooth and some of the surrounding
bone in order to prevent this from happening.

Laura Lee: Well, that's great when you're getting a tooth extracted by
a dentist that knows this research and knows the procedure, but
what about all those people who have wisdom teeth? I mean most of us
have had our wisdom teeth extracted and they've grown over
and the dentist didn't know and so then you have a situation where you
probably have to go in again and clean that out as you were
describing. We'll take a break and take some phone calls when we come
back and what we're going to do is have information only about
the topic - cavitations, root canals, nutrition.

Root Canals & Cavitations

These are the topics, and please don't get too personal and ask for a
diagnosis. That's not what these two doctors are here for, but to
give out information on some of this new research. We'll be right
back.

Laura Lee: And we are back, hi, Laura Lee here and we are talking with
Dr. Michael LaMarche, dentist in Lake Stevens, Washington
area and Dr. George Meinig. He's the author of Root Canal Cover-up,
and you were in Ojai, California. We have some calls for you
gentlemen, we have Call calling in next. Hi, Call, thanks for joining
us.

Gail: Thank you. A couple years ago I had a root canal done and as
soon as it was done it didn't feel very good and I kept telling them I
thought something was wrong and they told me it was a great root canal
and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. And I've had a
lot of pain in my right ear, and the jaw as a result and I can't find
a dentist that's willing to take that tooth out. I've been to three
endodontists and five dentists and no one will pull that tooth,
because they look at it and say it's a great root canal. So my
question is -
where can I find a dentist in my area that will actually look at this
and possibly extract that root canal tooth, it's a bicuspid.

Dr. LaMarche: Can I ask what area she's in?

Laura Lee: You're in Tacoma, Washington, Gail?

Gail: Yeah.

Laura Lee: Michael, you mentioned that there were 30 dentists involved
in the cavitation research, what about the root canal research?
How many dentists are there out there that are up on this and familiar
with the work?

Dr. LaMarche: Well currently, right now, in the research group there
are 30 of us, and I'm sure that there will be more.

Laura Lee: Can dentists anywhere say "I want to get involved, I want
to find out?" They're looking for more dentists?

Dr. LaMarche: Yes, if they would contact you perhaps you might connect
them up with me and we could make arrangements for them
to communicate with Dr. Bocho so that they could learn more about this
because certainly we need more involved....

Laura Lee: Is there a list available so that someone could send...I'11
be happy to distribute the information, but if there's a list then our
listeners in San Francisco to Minneapolis could also write in and get
a list of dentists.

Dr. LaMarche: Exactly. Dr. Bocho did ask those of us participating in
this research if we would have any objections to him giving the
names out and I cannot recall that anyone raised their hand and
objected, so I'm sure that he would provide you with that list.

Laura Lee: And Dr. Meinig do you have any sort of list of dentists who
are up on this?

Dr. Meinig: I have a list of dentists that I refer. This is such a new
subject many dentists are in disagreement with it of course, because
they haven't heard or seen the research.

Laura Lee: They may disagree until they see the research...

Dr. Meinig: We do have a scattering of them around the country and the
only thing is that when we give you a name, the first thing you
ask is whether they follow the root canal extraction protocol. Now
that may sound like a lot of things to say, but if you just ask if
they
follow the extraction protocol and they say "yes," then fine. If they
say "no," then you keep looking, because what you want is
somebody that does follow that protocol.

Dr. LaMarche: I would like to add too to this, if I may, that it's
very important that you have that biopsy. I think to take the tooth
out, to
say we've taken care of your problem, or to remove a cavitation and to
say that we've taken care of the problem is incorrect without
substantiating the clinical diagnosis with a pathologist's report.

Laura Lee: So what do you find out? If you had any bacteria colonies,
then what? Then what do you do?

Dr. LaMarche: Well, let me say that for example root canal teeth
radiographically on X-ray - they look beautiful, and there are those
people that don't believe that they cause a problem and probably they
don't cause a problem when one is healthy and in a healthy state. I
think when root canal teeth become a problem is when one becomes older
and there are more immunological challenges. Each root canal
tooth that we have removed we have documented on the last 150 - 147 of
those have had ischemic osteonecrosis around the tooth.

Dr. Meinig: Is it in the bone around there?

Dr. LaMarche: That is in the bone surrounding the tissue. Laura Lee:
Not to mention the tooth itself, right?

Dr. LaMarche: By the way, the trichologist (fungal scientist) also
decalcifies the tooth and examines if there is any necrotic or dead
tissue
within the tooth and some ofthese have been extremely well filled,
well done technically.

Laura Lee: Okay, we have Mike calling from a car phone before he gets
out of range. Hi, Mike.

Mike: This has been a very interesting topic. My wife is suffering
from a probable root canal, but my question is: the research that they
did with the animals where they implanted a tooth - how it had
affected the kidneys which was the thing of the original patient or
whatever - I wanted to know if the original human patient got better
or saw improvement after that and after the infected root canal tooth
was pulled out.

Dr. Meinig: Sorry I didn't answer that right away. We get so involved
in telling what's wrong we forget about telling you what happens.
Most of these people recover quite quickly, a little of it depends on
how long they've had the infection. Obviously if they've had it for
five or ten years it may be pretty well entrenched and take a while to
get rid of it and may not get rid of it completely. Most of them
however, go away completely and so many of them in one or two days,
it's really very startling. Some of us are beginning to think that
it's a little more than the transfer of infection and it may be
electrical in some way, electrical transference through the
acupuncture
meridians and through other systems in the body. There are a number of
things we don't know about this, other than we do know that it
happens and very many people by the next day - their arthritis is
gone. I've had them call and tell me that they can now do their mile
jogging and walking that they couldn't do yesterday when they had that
tooth in their mouth.

Laura Lee: To me it seems like "hedge your bets." If there's this kind
of research on line, take advantage of it and this information. Hi,
Laura Lee here for a second hour to spend with Dr. George Meinig and
Dr. Michael LaMarche talking about cavitations, that space left
in the jawbone when a tooth is extracted can lead to having necrotic
dead bone tissue there, can lead to jaw pain, neck pain, other
problems. And also root canals, the theory being that, in fact this is
pretty much confirmed, it's not really a theory, it's confirmed
science,
is it not, Dr. Meinig?

Dr. Meinig: Well, Dr. Price used 5,000 animals to help with all of
this confirming.

Laura Lee: And he ran through those rabbits. The research indicating
that microtubules in the tooth can harbor bacteria that mutate and
that can get out into the bloodstream and cause problems and
compromise the immune system and lead to degenerative diseases. So,
we're going to find out what to do, how to prevent problems and the
first place is - nutrition can play a role. I know that you also did
some extensive research with Dr. Price's theory that nutrition impacts
the development of the jaw and the person, the personality. An
extraordinary amount of research done that is being confirmed today.
By the way, someone wanted to know about getting a list of
dentists in your area that is upon this research and can perform some
ofthese techniques. There is a list from Dr. Bocho who is heading
up the NICO research of which Dr. LaMarche is a member, one of those
30 dentists nationwide who is conducting research into
cavitations. And that's one reason why you're doing the biopsies and
sending it to the lab, because that's part of the research. You want
to know...

Dr. LaMarche: May I add something here - that Dr. Bocho and our group
has applied for a grant and we are waiting to hear from NIH,
the National Institutes of Health, regarding acceptance of this grant.
And it looks as though they're very excited in supporting us in our
research.

Laura Lee: So this is very mainstream then?

Dr. LaMarche: Yes, it is.

Laura Lee: It's not alternative research when we have the National
Institutes of Health involved.

Dr. LaMarche: No. This makes very good sense, what's happening, and
you can't lie with microscopic slides.

Laura Lee: There are two lists - the Dr. Bocho list of dentists, those
30 dentists in the area, and also the Price-Pottenger list of those
who
specialize in root canal removal problems.

Dr. LaMarche: Right.

Laura Lee: Okay, we have two lists available and if you write to me at
P.O. Box 3010, Bellevue, Washington 98009 we'll be happy to
send you those two lists. Let's take a call next from Alex calling
from Salt Lake City, KCNR, hi Alex.

Read the rest of this article from the August/September Issue. Order
your subscription today from TOWNSEND LETTER for Doctors
& Patients.


http://www.tldp.com


Brian Sandle

unread,
Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96
to

Charles (cha...@hume.net) wrote:
: Laura Lee Interview with George Meinig, DDS & Dr. M. LaMarche
:
: Cavitations & Root Canals
[...]
: does it? What are we doing wrong? No doubt you've heard and we have

: covered in depth on this show the problems arising from
: mercury and silver amalgams. It's so well known in fact that 50% of
: the over 1,000,000 amalgams placed in teeth of Americans today
: are composites. A new material that doesn't contain mercury. You
: probably thought that mercury was the big issue and that now you
: know about it you're safe in terms of what's safe in your mouth. I'm
: sorry, but there's more.

Peter Montague <pe...@rachel.clark.net writes:

=======================Electronic Edition========================
. .
. RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #520 .
. ---November 14, 1996--- .
. HEADLINES: .
. BRAIN CANCER UPDATE .
. ========== .
. Environmental Research Foundation .
. P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 .
. Fax (410) 263-8944; Internet: e...@rachel.clark.net .
. ========== .
. Back issues available by E-mail; to get instructions, send .
. E-mail to IN...@rachel.clark.net with the single word HELP .
. in the message; back issues also available via ftp from .
. ftp.std.com/periodicals/rachel and from gopher.std.com. .
. Subscribe: send E-mail to rachel-wee...@world.std.com .
. with the single word SUBSCRIBE in the message. It's free. .
=================================================================

BRAIN CANCER UPDATE

In the U.S., brain cancer has been steadily increasing about 0.7%
per year since 1973. This steady increase is noteworthy by
itself. However, among people over age 65, brain cancer has been
increasing 2.9% each year, an astonishingly rapid rise in a
cancer that is almost always fatal in the elderly. At this rate,
the disease is doubling every 23 years among the elderly. Today
roughly 17,500 Americans (9600 males, 7900 females) are diagnosed
with new brain cancers each year.[1] During the period 1973-1990
brain cancer steadily increased in other industrialized countries
as well, especially among the elderly.[2]

Naturally the question arises, are these increases real or do
they simply reflect better diagnosis? Several careful studies of
this question have concluded that much of the increase in brain
cancer is real, and does not merely reflect better diagnosis.[3]

I feel that since composites use has been increasing at the same time
that double blind studies should be done to prove there is no connection,
or to the addition of substances like those from composites.

Composites are also porous, like the tubules spoken of in the dentin of
teeth.

The following article makes no mention of any difference between types of
root canal materials. It is known that substances other than gutta percha
have got through the apex of the tooth and irritated the tissue. That is
not infection for a start - it is a chemical irritant or toxin, such as
composite is.

There's much, much more. And we have
: tonight two gentlemen who are experts in their field in some of the
: newest research, actually it's old research, but it's just getting the
: attention today that it deserves. And that is problems with root
: canals; apparently there are bacteria that can be harbored in root
: canals
: no matter how perfectly they're done. These bacteria mutate and become
: toxin factories, they can get out into the bloodstream and cause
: degenerative diseases or make them worse. Also cavitation is a new
: term you're going to learn tonight and that is the space left in the
: jawbone when a tooth is extracted.

[...]
: Martin: Hello, Laura Lee. Yeah this is kind of a personal topic for

Vitamin C can rob the body of copper. Over some period this might worsen
a prostate swelling causing urinary trouble?

Brian Sandle

Steven Fawks DDS

unread,
Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96
to

Charles wrote:
>
> Laura Lee Interview with George Meinig, DDS & Dr. M. LaMarche
>
> Cavitations & Root Canals

>

> Laura Lee: Have you ever looked at fossil remains of dinosaurs or
> those of early man and noticed those rows and rows of perfect teeth
> still intact? Have you ever wondered why modern man can't seem to get
> through a lifetime with all his teeth intact, it doesn't seem fair
> does it? What are we doing wrong?


Modern man is not content to die at 20 years old!! (or less)
The other stuff is so bogus as to not deserve a response.

SWF DDS

K Wirth

unread,
Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96
to

>> Laura Lee: Have you ever looked at fossil remains of dinosaurs or
>> those of early man and noticed those rows and rows of perfect teeth
>> still intact? Have you ever wondered why modern man can't seem to get
>> through a lifetime with all his teeth intact, it doesn't seem fair
>> does it? What are we doing wrong?
>
>
>Modern man is not content to die at 20 years old!! (or less)
>The other stuff is so bogus as to not deserve a response.
>
>SWF DDS

Those dinosaurs didn't have dental insurance so that's why they didn't
live to be more than 20. kw


Elke Babiuk

unread,
Nov 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/19/96
to

[snip]
-------------------------------------

>Peter Montague <pe...@rachel.clark.net writes:
> . RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #520 .
[snip]

> BRAIN CANCER UPDATE
>
> In the U.S., brain cancer has been steadily increasing about 0.7%
> per year since 1973. This steady increase is noteworthy by
> itself. However, among people over age 65, brain cancer has been
> increasing 2.9% each year, an astonishingly rapid rise in a
> cancer that is almost always fatal in the elderly. At this rate,
> the disease is doubling every 23 years among the elderly. Today
> roughly 17,500 Americans (9600 males, 7900 females) are diagnosed
> with new brain cancers each year.[1] During the period 1973-1990
> brain cancer steadily increased in other industrialized countries
> as well, especially among the elderly.[2]
-----------------------------
[snip]

bsa...@southern.co.nz (Brian Sandle) wrote:
>I feel that since composites use has been increasing at the same time
>that double blind studies should be done to prove there is no connection,
>or to the addition of substances like those from composites.


Haven't you heard Brian? Tooth decay has decreased. So where does that
leave your pet theory? You seem to have missed the entire point of
RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT newsletter, which I happen to subscribe to. There is
a very STRONG aspartame/brain cancer link.

Elke
--

A clever person solves a problem a wise person avoids it
-------- Albert Einstein ----------

http://www.santarosa.edu/~dmontgom/fluoride.htm
http://emporium.turnpike.net/P/PDHA/health.htm

Brian Sandle

unread,
Nov 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/20/96
to

Elke Babiuk (bab...@cadvision.com) wrote:
[...]
:
: bsa...@southern.co.nz (Brian Sandle) wrote:
: >I feel that since composites use has been increasing at the same time
: >that double blind studies should be done to prove there is no connection,
: >or to the addition of substances like those from composites.
:
:
: Haven't you heard Brian? Tooth decay has decreased.

Tooth decay might have decreased, but composite use has gone up.

So where does that
: leave your pet theory? You seem to have missed the entire point of

: RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT newsletter, which I happen to subscribe to. There is
: a very STRONG aspartame/brain cancer link.

There is also more leukemia near cell phone towers. All the electronic
clocks near beds might be having an effect. But a toxin in the mouth
should not just be brushed aside as soon as one possible culprit is
found. You are obviously not a murder mystery addict.

Brian Sandle

CHARLES

unread,
Nov 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/22/96
to

On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:23:49 +0000, Steven Fawks DDS
<2th...@concentric.net> wrote:

>Charles wrote:
>>
>> Laura Lee Interview with George Meinig, DDS & Dr. M. LaMarche
>>
>> Cavitations & Root Canals
>
>>

>> Laura Lee: Have you ever looked at fossil remains of dinosaurs or
>> those of early man and noticed those rows and rows of perfect teeth
>> still intact? Have you ever wondered why modern man can't seem to get
>> through a lifetime with all his teeth intact, it doesn't seem fair
>> does it? What are we doing wrong?
>
>

>Modern man is not content to die at 20 years old!! (or less)
>The other stuff is so bogus as to not deserve a response.

Oh, but your response would be appreciated. If it is bogus, show us
the reason.
>SWF DDS


Steven Fawks DDS

unread,
Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96
to

Charles wrote:
>
> On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:23:49 +0000, Steven Fawks DDS
> <2th...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> >Charles wrote:
> >>
> >> Laura Lee Interview with George Meinig, DDS & Dr. M. LaMarche
> >>
> >> Cavitations & Root Canals
> >
> >>
> >> Laura Lee: Have you ever looked at fossil remains of dinosaurs or
> >> those of early man and noticed those rows and rows of perfect teeth
> >> still intact? Have you ever wondered why modern man can't seem to get
> >> through a lifetime with all his teeth intact, it doesn't seem fair
> >> does it? What are we doing wrong?
> >
> >
> >Modern man is not content to die at 20 years old!! (or less)
> >The other stuff is so bogus as to not deserve a response.
> Oh, but your response would be appreciated. If it is bogus, show us
> the reason.
> >SWF DDS


OK, here it is. In 1960, the average number of teeth for a 65 yr. old
US citizen was 6 (six). Thirty+ years later the average is over 20.
Soon, the person with dentures is going to be relatively rare. This
has come about with a combination of better dental care to a wider
segment of society, better education, and home care by the patient.
IF we could get rid of the soft drinks and cigarettes, we'd be there
already! You keep your teeth with proper diet, good home care
(including flossing), not smoking, and modern, scientific dental
treatment. It is not by magic or luck.

As I insinuated in my first response, ancient man had a very short
life expectancy, and a very different diet. There were no rifined
carbohydrates and not very many sugars at all. The grains, fruits,
etc were more coarsely prepared. You can see the wear on the biting
surfaces of teeth in these skulls even when they died in their teens
and twenties. Our teeth face a much more challenging environment.

SWF DDS

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