Re: A Simple Question
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Tim K." wrote:
>
> > What I'm interested in learning is how people reconcile the notion of a
> > loving god with all the terrible things that happen.
>
> It is a worthwhile investigation. I am a liberal minded Christian (became a
> Christian in 1972) and an Exiled Believer (because of these type of
> problems). I studied Philosophy for my undergraduate degree.
>
>
> > The difficulty in getting anyone to answer it makes me wonder if anyone
> > ever even
> > considers it - and that's a fair coping mechanism.
>
> Most Christians are trained NOT to think! One has to leave one's brain at
> the church door. This is part of the current Fundamentalist Dark Age of
> which Eric (fundamentalist) and Chuck Stamford (ultra conservative
> fundamentalist using selected philosophers to boost his fundamentalist
> views) are a part of.
>
> I'd be interested in exploring this problem with you. I think Jung has come
> the closest to defining the problem and where one should seek an answer.
> Kierkegaard poses huge problems for Christians. Chrisytians like C S Lewis
> and philkip Yancey do not give reasonable answers. I don't think any
> Christian has really understood the incredible consequences of one's view on
> the problem of evil. The answer will not be solved by quoting a vomit of
> bible verses but by using one's reason. The solution may not be what we like
> or expect but truth matters.
The answer can be found by reading the Book of Job with a discerning
heart.
To understand this, simply surf the link under my name.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/hsada
The Lord
> The answer can be found by reading the Book of Job with a discerning
> heart.
In other words, read it and warp the words into your own programmed
reality. Whatever it takes, right?
"Mark T"
>> I'd be interested in exploring this problem with you. I think Jung has
>> come
>> the closest to defining the problem and where one should seek an answer.
>> Kierkegaard poses huge problems for Christians. Christians like C S Lewis
>> and Philip Yancey do not give reasonable answers. I don't think any
>> Christian has really understood the incredible consequences of one's view
>> on
>> the problem of evil. The answer will not be solved by quoting a vomit of
>> bible verses but by using one's reason. The solution may not be what we
>> like
>> or expect but truth matters.
>
> The answer can be found by reading the Book of Job with a discerning
> heart.
Er ... no.
One has to use one's God-given brain. That's why God gave it to you!
God's answer to Job is basically "I'm bigger than you. Shut up." That is
not a satisfactory answer.
Have you read Carl Jung's "Answer To Job"? Have you ever studied philosophy
(which used to be the handmaiden to theology)?
You don't seem to be able to engage anyone at any serious level but here's
hoping .....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Problem of Evil, which for so many people simply denuminizes religion,
and which Schopenhauer used to reject the value of the world, became a
challenge for Jung in the psychoanalysis of God. The God of the Bible is
indeed a personality, and seemingly not always the same one. God as a
morally evolving personality is the extraordinary conception of Answer to
Job. What Otto saw as the evolution of human moral consciousness, Jung turns
right around on the basis of the principle that the human unconscious,
expressed spontaneously in religious practice and literature, transcends
mere human subjectivity. But the transcendent reality in the unconscious is
different in kind from consciousness. As Jung said in Memories, Dreams,
Reflections again:
If the Creator were conscious of Himself, He would not need conscious
creatures; nor is it probable that the extremely indirect methods of
creation, which squander millions of years upon the development of countless
species and creatures, are the outcome of purposeful intention. Natural
history tells us of a haphazard and casual transformation of species over
hundreds of millions of years of devouring and being devoured. The
biological and political history of man is an elaborate repetition of the
same thing. But the history of the mind offers a different picture. Here the
miracle of reflecting consciousness intervenes -- the second cosmogony [ed.
note: what Teilhard de Chardin called the origin of the "noosphere," the
layer of "mind"]. The importance of consciousness is so great that one
cannot help suspecting the element of meaning to be concealed somewhere
within all the monstrous, apparently senseless biological turmoil, and that
the road to its manifestation was ultimately found on the level of
warm-blooded vertebrates possessed of a differentiated brain -- found as if
by chance, unintended and unforeseen, and yet somehow sensed, felt and
groped for out of some dark urge. [p. 339]
In other words, a "meaningful coincidence." Jung also says,
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle
a light in the darkness of mere being. It may even be assumed that just as
the unconscious affects us, so the increase in our consciousness affects the
unconscious. [p. 326]
However, Jung has missed something there. If consciousness is "the light in
the darkness of mere being," consciousness alone cannot be the "sole purpose
of human existence," since consciousness as such could appear as just a
place of "mere being" and so would easily become an empty, absurd, and
meaningless Existentialist existence. Instead, consciousness allows for the
meaningful instantiation of existence, both through Jung's process of
Individuation, by which the Archetypes are given unique expression in a
specific human life, and from the historic process that Jung examines in
Answer to Job, by which interaction with the unconscious alters in turn the
Archetypes that come to be instantiated. While Otto could understand Job's
reaction to God, as the incomprehensible Numen, Jung thinks of God's
reaction to Job, as an innocent and righteous man jerked around by God's
unconsciousness. Jung's idea that the Incarnation then is the means by which
God redeems Himself from His morally false position in Job is an
extraordinary reversal (I hesitate to say "deconstruction") of the
consciously expressed dogma that the Incarnation is to redeem humanity.
from http://www.friesian.com/jung.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Book of Job: An authentic account of human suffering
Human suffering takes many forms - from commonplace disappointments,
frustrations, illnesses - through loss, loneliness, identity crisis,
emotional turmoil - to human response in the face of tragedy, disaster,
death, pointless and meaningless acts of violence, war, genocide. It is
Viktor Frankl (1987[1946]) who points out that, because human suffering
seems so pointless and meaningless, it is the ultimate challenge in human
growth. And, in the preface to Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning,
Gordon Allport says:-
" . . to live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the
suffering - if there is a purpose in life at all, there must be a purpose in
suffering and dying - but no-one can tell another what that purpose is."
....
After he had finished Answer to Job he felt well again. In Memories, Dreams,
Reflections, (Jung, 1961), he remarks:
"The inner root of [Answer to Job] is to be found in Aion. There I had
dealt with the psychology of Christianity, and Job is a kind of
prefiguration of Christ. The link between them is the idea of suffering.
Christ is the suffering servant of God, and so was Job . . . The ambivalent
God-image plays a crucial part in the Book of Job . Job expects that God
will, in a sense stand by him against God; in this we have a picture of
God's tragic contradictoriness. This was the main theme of Answer to Job"
(p. 243).
Jung goes on to point out that:
"The many questions from the public and from patients had made me feel
that I must express myself more clearly about the religious problems of
modern man. For years I hesitated to do so, because I was fully aware of the
storm I would be unleashing. But at last I could not help being gripped by
the problem, in all its urgency and difficulty, and I found myself compelled
to give an answer. I did so in a form in which the problem had presented
itself to me, that is, as an experience charged with emotion" (p. 243).
It should be noted that Answer to Job was the one work with which he was
completely satisfied. In his old age, Jung once remarked that " . . now that
he knew more he would like to rewrite all of his books except Answer to Job,
but he would leave that one just as it stands" (von Franz, 1975, p. 161).
Edward Edinger (1992) suggests that Answer to Job is possibly the most
complete statement of Jung's essential message, but it is a message that has
shocked many people, including theologians, other psychologists and even
some of his close friends (see Adler, 1976).
Jung makes it clear that he is writing in the way that:
"a modern man with a Christian education and background comes to terms
with the divine darkness which is unveiled in the Book of Job , and what
effect it has on him" (Jung, C.W. 9, par. 561).
Jung is concerned with what he calls a psychic truth, and he proposes that
the Book of Job can serve as a paradigm for a certain experience of God, and
that this has a special significance for our situation in today's world
(Jung, C.W. 9, par. 562). In the story of Job, the portrayal of Yahweh is as
both a persecutor and a helper in the same image, and both aspects are as
real as each other. Yahweh is not split but is a totality of inner
opposites, and this Jung identifies as the coincidentia oppositorium, the
conjunction of opposites (Jung, C.W. 9, par. 664). The importance of this
conjunction must not be underestimated, and we will return to this matter
later. Jung proposes that this terrible, tormenting image of Yahweh
constitutes his moral defeat at the hands of Job, and consequently Job
should be seen as standing morally higher than Yahweh (Jung, C.W. 9, par.
640).
What is striking about Answer to Job, is that the story of Job is only a
starting point for Jung's sweeping survey of many of the books from the Old
and New Testament which share a very similar theme. It turns out that Jung
hardly mentions Job in the second half of his book, and also, more
problematically, nothing is really resolved. Jung's Answer to Job is a very
angry book, and as such it probably suffers from the projections and
distortions that inevitably accompany human anger.
However, the main point to be made is that Jung presents his work as "an
experience charged with emotion". Clearly Jung's answer is an authentic
answer, and needs to be approached in precisely that way. Answer to Job is
the culmination of Jung's own heuristic inquiry (see Moustakas, 1990; Hiles
1999), i.e. his own life-long inquiry into the exploration of the meaning of
human suffering, and the tragic spiritual conflicts this must entail.
Marie-Louise von Franz reports that when Jung was asked how he could live
with the knowledge he had recorded in Answer to Job, he replied "I live in
my deepest hell, and from there I cannot fall any further" (von Franz, 1975,
p. 174).
http://psychematters.com/papers/hiles.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doesn't go to any website.
"Mark T"
Andrew seems to be a simplistic fundamentalist. He has not used his God
given brain in the study of philosophy or theology anfd separates his
medical work from his spiritual life. He has not progressed past Stage 3.
As such he is wasting the gift of intelloigence which God gave him. Life is
a whole and cannot be sep-arated into compartments. The same critical
reflection and analysis that is done in medicine is also required in
philosophy and theology. Andrew is lazy in this regard.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
Stages of Faith, by James W. Fowler (published in paperback by Harper
Collins, 1995.)
Stage 1--Magical World
ages 2-6, perceives the world through lens of imagination and intuition
unrestrained by logic e.g., lives in a magical world in which anything is
possible
Stage 2--Concrete Family
ages 6-12, sees the world as a story--concrete, literal, narrative family of
ritual and myth e.g., "In the beginning, God created the . . ."
~Stage 2 collapses when teenagers use newfound power of abstract thought to
deconstruct previous understanding of the world e.g., risk of rejecting
religious beliefs of parents, and identifying with surrounding secular
culture
Stage 3--Faith Community *
teenager to early adulthood or beyond, sees the world through the lens of
the peer community e.g., unconsciously "catches" faith, values, and way of
thinking from peer group or subculture tends not to question the accepted
ways of thinking e.g., "if the Bible says . . . it must be true" or "if some
group says . . . it's the Truth" difficult dealing calmly and rationally
with issues that touches on one's identity
Stage 4--Rational Constructs *
adulthood (if) traditional answers stop making sense e.g., beliefs
previously unquestioned are called into account; develops the capacity to
step back (usually for the first time) and examine beliefs with reason
universe is reconstructed with self-chosen concepts might experience deep
disappointment/anger on finding some beliefs did not stand up to
investigation
Stage 5--Numinous (Supernatural/Mysterious) Universe
mid-life or latter (if) it seems we have run up against the limits of
rational thought
e.g., the search for certainty can end in feelings of failure/despair; we
come to live in a spiritual universe of mystery, wonder, and paradox e.g.,
we might return to sacred symbol, story, tradition, liturgy, spiritual
community, but no longer captured in a theological box
Stage 6--Selfless Service **
rare stage for many; identifies deeply with all humanity, and spends
themselves in
service of worldwide issues of love, and justice e.g., Mahatma Gandhi,
Mother Theresa, etc.
________________
(*) To those in stage 3 or higher, the next stage looks like a loss of
faith, and the previous stage is repulsive. This can be seen when stage 3
engages in witch hunting, and stage 4 baits and taunts stage 3.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nos...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
> >
> > The answer can be found by reading the Book of Job with a discerning
> > heart.
>
> Er ... no.
Actually "yes" ... if you had a discerning heart.
> One has to use one's God-given brain. That's why God gave it to you!
Each person's brain is different and so each person's use of their
respective minds as given by GOD will be different.
Bottomline:
The brain is no substitute for a discerning heart.
> God's answer to Job is basically "I'm bigger than you. Shut up."
Not for the discerning.
> That is not a satisfactory answer.
Correct. This is one reason to want a discerning heart. It is the
reason for my prayerfully asking for a discerning heart many years ago
just as King Solomon had asked and received.
All thanks, praises, and glory to LORD GOD Almighty now and forever.
Amen !
> Have you read Carl Jung's "Answer To Job"?
No.
> Have you ever studied philosophy
> (which used to be the handmaiden to theology)?
Yes.
> You don't seem to be able to engage anyone at any serious level but here's
> hoping .....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Problem of Evil, which for so many people simply denuminizes religion,
> and which Schopenhauer used to reject the value of the world, became a
> challenge for Jung in the psychoanalysis of God. The God of the Bible is
> indeed a personality, and seemingly not always the same one. God as a
> morally evolving personality is the extraordinary conception of Answer to
> Job. What Otto saw as the evolution of human moral consciousness, Jung turns
> right around on the basis of the principle that the human unconscious,
> expressed spontaneously in religious practice and literature, transcends
> mere human subjectivity. But the transcendent reality in the unconscious is
> different in kind from consciousness. As Jung said in Memories, Dreams,
> Reflections again:
>
> If the Creator were conscious of Himself, He would not need conscious
> creatures;
LORD GOD Almighty does not need us. HE chose to create us out of HIS
infinite will. The LORD chose to generously give us our respective
free wills. Again, this is out of HIS infinite will.
> nor is it probable that the extremely indirect methods of
> creation, which squander millions of years upon the development of countless
> species and creatures, are the outcome of purposeful intention.
HIS method of creation is actually very direct.
Nothing in this universe has either happened or will happen by chance
(Proverbs 16:33).
> Natural
> history tells us of a haphazard and casual transformation of species over
> hundreds of millions of years of devouring and being devoured.
No such thing as Nature, capitalized in the manner as presented by
Charles Darwin in his book, "The Origin of Species."
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is dead because it was founded on the
false assumption that things in this universe happened by chance
(random selection by random forces of randomly arising traits
phenotypically arising from random mutations).
As it is written, a house built on sand will not stand.
> The
> biological and political history of man is an elaborate repetition of the
> same thing.
Aside from the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran, written works of man have
fallen short of being truthful.
> But the history of the mind offers a different picture. Here the
> miracle of reflecting consciousness intervenes -- the second cosmogony [ed.
> note: what Teilhard de Chardin called the origin of the "noosphere," the
> layer of "mind"]. The importance of consciousness is so great that one
> cannot help suspecting the element of meaning to be concealed somewhere
> within all the monstrous, apparently senseless biological turmoil, and that
> the road to its manifestation was ultimately found on the level of
> warm-blooded vertebrates possessed of a differentiated brain -- found as if
> by chance, unintended and unforeseen, and yet somehow sensed, felt and
> groped for out of some dark urge. [p. 339]
No such thing as chance (Proverbs 16:33).
The "element of meaning" is the essence of life (aka soul)
> In other words, a "meaningful coincidence." Jung also says,
No such thing as coincidence (Proverbs 16:33).
> As far as we can discern,
Not very far without a discerning heart.
> the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle
> a light in the darkness of mere being.
Incorrect.
Our purpose is to glorify LORD GOD Almighty.
> It may even be assumed that just as
> the unconscious affects us, so the increase in our consciousness affects the
> unconscious. [p. 326]
> However, Jung has missed something there. If consciousness is "the light in
> the darkness of mere being," consciousness alone cannot be the "sole purpose
> of human existence," since consciousness as such could appear as just a
> place of "mere being" and so would easily become an empty, absurd, and
> meaningless Existentialist existence. Instead, consciousness allows for the
> meaningful instantiation of existence, both through Jung's process of
> Individuation, by which the Archetypes are given unique expression in a
> specific human life, and from the historic process that Jung examines in
> Answer to Job, by which interaction with the unconscious alters in turn the
> Archetypes that come to be instantiated. While Otto could understand Job's
> reaction to God, as the incomprehensible Numen, Jung thinks of God's
> reaction to Job, as an innocent and righteous man jerked around by God's
> unconsciousness. Jung's idea that the Incarnation then is the means by which
> God redeems Himself from His morally false position in Job is an
> extraordinary reversal (I hesitate to say "deconstruction") of the
> consciously expressed dogma that the Incarnation is to redeem humanity.
>
> from http://www.friesian.com/jung.htm
Without the LORD, our existence would indeed be meaningless
(Ecclesiastes).
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The Book of Job: An authentic account of human suffering
Actually, the Book of Job is not an account of human suffering but
rather an explanation for why there is evil in this world.
> Human suffering takes many forms - from commonplace disappointments,
> frustrations, illnesses - through loss, loneliness, identity crisis,
> emotional turmoil - to human response in the face of tragedy, disaster,
> death, pointless and meaningless acts of violence, war, genocide. It is
> Viktor Frankl (1987[1946]) who points out that, because human suffering
> seems so pointless and meaningless, it is the ultimate challenge in human
> growth. And, in the preface to Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning,
> Gordon Allport says:-
>
> " . . to live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the
> suffering - if there is a purpose in life at all, there must be a purpose in
> suffering and dying - but no-one can tell another what that purpose is."
Actually rebelling out of free will against GOD's infinite will leads
to suffering.
Repenting, seeking out, and choosing to be within GOD's infinite will
alleviates all suffering.
"MY yoke is light." -- LORD Jesus Christ
> ....
>
> After he had finished Answer to Job he felt well again. In Memories, Dreams,
> Reflections, (Jung, 1961), he remarks:
>
> "The inner root of [Answer to Job] is to be found in Aion. There I had
> dealt with the psychology of Christianity, and Job is a kind of
> prefiguration of Christ. The link between them is the idea of suffering.
> Christ is the suffering servant of God, and so was Job . . . The ambivalent
> God-image plays a crucial part in the Book of Job . Job expects that God
> will, in a sense stand by him against God; in this we have a picture of
> God's tragic contradictoriness. This was the main theme of Answer to Job"
> (p. 243).
Actually, what the world (and those who are of this world) expected was
that GOD would stand by Job against the evil wiles of satan.
Instead, GOD allowed satan to test Job even though GOD foreknew what
the outcome would be: that Job would not curse GOD to HIS face even
when GOD withdrew all HIS blessings and protection. We know GOD
foreknew this by how HE describes Job as righteous like no other in the
world. This also reveals that though GOD is omniscient, satan is not,
because ultimately satan is shown to be wrong in his assumptions.
Even more interesting is the description of satan wandering about the
world "to and fro."
Not only is satan not omniscient, he is not omnipresent either.
Indeed, the evils that satan inflicted upon Job were sequential and not
simultaneous.
This reminds me of the sequential nature of the events that occurred
for the WTC towers on 9/11/2001.
Moreover, satan does not have the power to harm anyone in this world
unless GOD permits it.
So yes, the events of 9/11/2001 occurred according to GOD's infinite
will.
> Jung goes on to point out that:
>
> "The many questions from the public and from patients had made me feel
> that I must express myself more clearly about the religious problems of
> modern man. For years I hesitated to do so, because I was fully aware of the
> storm I would be unleashing. But at last I could not help being gripped by
> the problem, in all its urgency and difficulty, and I found myself compelled
> to give an answer. I did so in a form in which the problem had presented
> itself to me, that is, as an experience charged with emotion" (p. 243).
>
> It should be noted that Answer to Job was the one work with which he was
> completely satisfied. In his old age, Jung once remarked that " . . now that
> he knew more he would like to rewrite all of his books except Answer to Job,
> but he would leave that one just as it stands" (von Franz, 1975, p. 161).
> Edward Edinger (1992) suggests that Answer to Job is possibly the most
> complete statement of Jung's essential message, but it is a message that has
> shocked many people, including theologians, other psychologists and even
> some of his close friends (see Adler, 1976).
>
> Jung makes it clear that he is writing in the way that:
>
> "a modern man with a Christian education and background comes to terms
> with the divine darkness which is unveiled in the Book of Job , and what
> effect it has on him" (Jung, C.W. 9, par. 561).
It was Jung's choice to judge GOD.
It remains my choice to refrain from judging others especially GOD per
the kind and thoughtful suggestions of my LORD and Savior (Matthew 7).
"I am the way, the truth, and the life..." -- LORD Jesus Christ
Indeed, most assuredly, I know GOD to be kind, just, and right.
Those who choose to judge GOD will be rendered incapable of loving GOD.
Those who are unable to love GOD, will never come to know HIM.
For these reasons, Jung never knew GOD and indeed that is evident by
his writing:
"I live in my deepest hell, and from there I cannot fall any farther."
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/hsada
>
> It doesn't go to any website.
It goes to the Google archives.
Still praying for you, dear Mark.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://tinyurl.com/hsada
Pastor Kutchie
Try reading the Bible with a discerning mind, it's the right tool for
the job. Would you perform a coronary bypass with a rubber duck?
The Lord
> Would you perform a coronary bypass with a rubber duck?
Only if it were a HOLY duck...
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Governor Pontius Pilate tried to understand LORD Jesus Christ with his
mind but couldn't:
"What is truth?" -- Pontius Pilate.
> Would you perform a coronary bypass with a rubber duck?
Reading the Bible without a discerning heart would be like performing
coronary bypass surgery blindfolded.
To understand this, simply surf the link under my name.
Still praying for your poor enslaved soul, dear neighbor.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gj98a
jte...@gmail.com
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Not for the discerning.
Ironically, a strong belief in the quality of one's judgment
has never been an indicator of good judgment.
Pastor Kutchie
Why do you need to divert the topic in every post you make? And before
you try to twist that into some sneering, patronising and contemptuous
answer, it's a rhetorical question.
Me, I have both a discerning heart and a discerning mind. My discerning
mind tells me that the God you believe in cannot possibly exist. My
discerning heart is glad he doesn't for if he did, he would be an
unspeakably cruel, narcissistic and vindictive person. I suspect that's
why he appeals to you.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Don't and haven't. LORD Jesus Christ is the living Word of GOD, Source
of the Holy Bible, which is the written Word of GOD.
To understand this, simply surf the link under my name.
Still praying for your enslaved soul, dear neighbor.
Pastor Kutchie
Andrew B. Chung, liar for Christ RAN AWAY, again.
I wrote, he snipped:
"Me, I have both a discerning heart and a discerning mind. My
discerning
mind tells me that the God you believe in cannot possibly exist. My
discerning heart is glad he doesn't for if he did, he would be an
unspeakably cruel, narcissistic and vindictive person. I suspect that's
why he appeals to you. "
Chung has absolutely no response to this. He's a coward and a liar.
That isn't name-calling, that's fair comment.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> I wrote, he snipped:
Your words are not sacred.
> "Me, I have both a discerning heart and a discerning mind.
You remind me of the blind man who would feign vision among the seeing
by claiming he can see with both his eyes and his mind.
> My
> discerning
> mind tells me that the God you believe in cannot possibly exist.
It seems that your mind is dysfunctional rather than discerning.
> My
> discerning heart is glad he doesn't for if he did, he would be an
> unspeakably cruel, narcissistic and vindictive person.
As if a parent who disciplines his/her child is either cruel,
narcissistic, or vindictive.
> I suspect that's
> why he appeals to you. "
In truth, most definitely, I know the LORD to be kind, just, and right.
> Chung has absolutely no response to this.
Without the LORD, your fantasies remain meaningless (Ecclesiastes).
> He's a coward and a liar.
Cowards don't use their real names on usenet.
> That isn't name-calling, that's fair comment.
Actually, it is wholly untruthful therefore name-calling.
Still praying for your feeble and enslaved soul, dear neighbor.
To understand this, simply surf the link under my name.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gj98a
Pastor Kutchie
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> >
> > I wrote, he snipped:
>
> Your words are not sacred.
>
Neither are your imagunary friend's.
> > "Me, I have both a discerning heart and a discerning mind.
>
> You remind me of the blind man who would feign vision among the seeing
> by claiming he can see with both his eyes and his mind.
>
You are not in a postion to make that judgement.
> > My
> > discerning
> > mind tells me that the God you believe in cannot possibly exist.
>
> It seems that your mind is dysfunctional rather than discerning.
>
You are definitely in no [position to make that judgement.
> > My
> > discerning heart is glad he doesn't for if he did, he would be an
> > unspeakably cruel, narcissistic and vindictive person.
>
> As if a parent who disciplines his/her child is either cruel,
> narcissistic, or vindictive.
>
They generally don't murder them, and they certainly dot insist they
worship them on pain of death.
> > I suspect that's
> > why he appeals to you. "
>
> In truth, most definitely, I know the LORD to be kind, just, and right.
>
You're twisted.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
By your own measure, the latter 7 words of what you have written
describes your interaction with others.
FYI, those with discerning hearts know that staging people is the same
as judging them and that such man-made constructs are meaningless
without the LORD (Ecclesiastes).
To understand this, simply surf the link under my name.
Still praying for your enslaved soul, dear Mark.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gj98a
Tim K.
"The Lord" <chungism...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149654345.4...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Pastor Kutchie wrote:
>> Would you perform a coronary bypass with a rubber duck?
>
> Only if it were a HOLY duck...
<rimshot>
Pastor Kutchie
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Aside from the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran, written works of man have
> fallen short of being truthful.
>
Would you like to substantiate that statement, Andrew? For example,
where does Grossman's Cardiac Catheterization, Angiography, and
Intervention fall short of being truthful?
duke
wrote:
>> Most Christians are trained NOT to think!
Wow, I didn't know that was what I was doing.
>The answer can be found by reading the Book of Job with a discerning
>heart.
>To understand this, simply surf the link under my name.
>Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
>Andrew
>http://tinyurl.com/hsada
Sorry, bubba, but I'm a Christian. Think the New Testament.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
(1) Credit by the authors is given to their respective families and not
to LORD GOD Almighty, Who is the Source of their knowledge and wisdom.
(2) Men and their works are praised instead of the works of GOD on
which the men and their works depend.
(3) Controversial topics such as the indications for invasive cardiac
testing are discussed. Such discussions sans patient are less than
truthful.
(4) Enumeration of rates of possible complications of invasive cardiac
testing sans identification and description of a specific patient
population is less than truthful.
... et cetera.
To understand this exchange, simply surf the link under my sig.
Still praying for your poor enslaved soul, dear neighbor.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/gj98a
"Mark T"
>> Andrew seems to be a simplistic fundamentalist. He has not used his God
>> given brain in the study of philosophy or theology and separates his
>> medical work from his spiritual life. He has not progressed past Stage
>> 3.
>> As such he is wasting the gift of intelligence which God gave him. Life
>> is
>> a whole and cannot be sep-arated into compartments. The same critical
>> reflection and analysis that is done in medicine is also required in
>> philosophy and theology. Andrew is lazy in this regard.
>>
>> Stages of Faith, by James W. Fowler (published in paperback by Harper
>> Collins, 1995.)
...
>> Stage 3--Faith Community *
>>
>> teenager to early adulthood or beyond, sees the world through the lens of
>> the peer community e.g., unconsciously "catches" faith, values, and way
>> of
>> thinking from peer group or subculture tends not to question the
>> accepted
>> ways of thinking e.g., "if the Bible says . . . it must be true" or "if
>> some
>> group says . . . it's the Truth" difficult dealing calmly and rationally
>> with issues that touches on one's identity
...
>> FYI, those with discerning hearts know that staging people is the same
>> as judging them and that such man-made constructs are meaningless
FYI, those with functioning God-given brains know that medicine is a
man-made construct but is not meaningless.
***********************************************************
'As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.
#################################################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians at
all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
#################################################
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Actually medicine is not a man-made construct like that which you were
using to judge the faith of others.
To understand this exchange, simply surf the link below my sig.
"Mark T"
>> FYI, those with functioning God-given brains know that medicine is a
>> man-made construct but is not meaningless.
>
> Actually medicine is not a man-made construct
Really? Tell that to all the people involved in constructing medical
knowledge over the last few thousand years. For example, the truths about
heart surgery did not come from the bible but from scientific research. All
truth is God's truth.
You have failed to use your God-given mind on the topic of God.
2 Chr. 16:12-13 - In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa became diseased
in his feet. His disease was severe, yet even in his disease he did not seek
the LORD, but the physicians. So Asa slept with his fathers, having died in
the forty-first year of his reign.
It is obvious from the Bible that you should not consult a doctor!!!!!
Just remain on a diet of Bible verses in order to get cured.
Go to bed. Take 2 Bible verses a day with a glass of water. Report back
after being 10 years on this Bible Medicine ... or arrange for your obituary
to be posted on the ngs if you kick the bucket beforehand.
OR ....
Does God expect you to use your God-given mind and see a doctor if you are
sick?
A person of your intelligence should start to question the Fundamentalist
Dark Age.
Fundamentalism has done for Christianity what McDonalds has done for gourmet
food.
David
<nos...@heartmdphd.com> typed furiously:
>Pastor Kutchie wrote:
>> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>>
>> > Aside from the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran, written works of man have
>> > fallen short of being truthful.
>>
>> Would you like to substantiate that statement, Andrew? For example,
>> where does Grossman's Cardiac Catheterization, Angiography, and
>> Intervention fall short of being truthful?
>
>(1) Credit by the authors is given to their respective families and not
>to LORD GOD Almighty, Who is the Source of their knowledge and wisdom.
>
Prove it. My knowledge and wisdom comes from my own learning and
experience. God had nothing to do with it.
>(2) Men and their works are praised instead of the works of GOD on
>which the men and their works depend.
>
What works of God? None of the jobs I had had any dependence on God or
his works. Don't talk such rubbish.
>(3) Controversial topics such as the indications for invasive cardiac
>testing are discussed. Such discussions sans patient are less than
>truthful.
>
Which has what to do with God?
>(4) Enumeration of rates of possible complications of invasive cardiac
>testing sans identification and description of a specific patient
>population is less than truthful.
>
How would you know?
--
David
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> On 7 Jun 2006 16:08:55 -0700, Andrew wrote:
> >Pastor Kutchie wrote:
> >> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> >>
> >> > Aside from the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran, written works of man have
> >> > fallen short of being truthful.
> >>
> >> Would you like to substantiate that statement, Andrew? For example,
> >> where does Grossman's Cardiac Catheterization, Angiography, and
> >> Intervention fall short of being truthful?
> >
> >(1) Credit by the authors is given to their respective families and not
> >to LORD GOD Almighty, Who is the Source of their knowledge and wisdom.
> >
> Prove it.
The provided proof can be found by simply surfing the link below my
sig.
Will be praying for your poor enslaved soul, dear David.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
>
> >> FYI, those with functioning God-given brains know that medicine is a
> >> man-made construct but is not meaningless.
> >
> > Actually medicine is not a man-made construct
>
> Really?
Just as neither physics nor mathematics are man-made constructs.
> Tell that to all the people involved in constructing medical
> knowledge over the last few thousand years.
I am one of those people.
> For example, the truths about
> heart surgery did not come from the bible but from scientific research.
The knowledge which makes heart surgery possible came from GOD.
> All truth is God's truth.
Knowledge is not truth.
> You have failed to use your God-given mind on the topic of God.
Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).
> 2 Chr. 16:12-13 - In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa became diseased
> in his feet. His disease was severe, yet even in his disease he did not seek
> the LORD, but the physicians. So Asa slept with his fathers, having died in
> the forty-first year of his reign.
>
> It is obvious from the Bible that you should not consult a doctor!!!!!
Hardly.
> Just remain on a diet of Bible verses in order to get cured.
>
> Go to bed. Take 2 Bible verses a day with a glass of water. Report back
> after being 10 years on this Bible Medicine ... or arrange for your obituary
> to be posted on the ngs if you kick the bucket beforehand.
>
> OR ....
>
> Does God expect you to use your God-given mind and see a doctor if you are
> sick?
GOD expects you to seek HIM first and then HE will heal you either
directly or through others if your being healed is within HIS infinite
will.
> A person of your intelligence should start to question the Fundamentalist
> Dark Age.
It remains my choice to refrain from judging others.
> Fundamentalism has done for Christianity what McDonalds has done for gourmet
> food.
Christianity is not a religion but a personal relationship with the
risen Christ.
To understand this, simply surf the link below my sig.
Still praying for your poor enlaved soul, dear Mark.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu
Pastor Kutchie
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> David wrote:
> > On 7 Jun 2006 16:08:55 -0700, Andrew wrote:
> > >Pastor Kutchie wrote:
> > >> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Aside from the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran, written works of man have
> > >> > fallen short of being truthful.
> > >>
> > >> Would you like to substantiate that statement, Andrew? For example,
> > >> where does Grossman's Cardiac Catheterization, Angiography, and
> > >> Intervention fall short of being truthful?
> > >
> > >(1) Credit by the authors is given to their respective families and not
> > >to LORD GOD Almighty, Who is the Source of their knowledge and wisdom.
> > >
> > Prove it.
>
> The provided proof can be found by simply surfing the link below my
> sig.
>
Your tendentious submissions to Usenet groups are not proof of
anything. Your claim that they are is evidence of a serious personality
disorder.
"Mark T"
>> >> FYI, those with functioning God-given brains know that medicine is a
>> >> man-made construct but is not meaningless.
>> > Actually medicine is not a man-made construct
>> Really?
>
> Just as neither physics nor mathematics are man-made constructs.
Both are man made constructs. Read some philosophy.
>> Tell that to all the people involved in constructing medical
>> knowledge over the last few thousand years.
> I am one of those people.
So was my brother Dr Brett Tindall (see last post) ... and I am an educator
(K-12 & Adult) and a philosopher.
>> You have failed to use your God-given mind on the topic of God.
>
> Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).
Which "lord"?
>> 2 Chr. 16:12-13 - In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa became
>> diseased
>> in his feet. His disease was severe, yet even in his disease he did not
>> seek
>> the LORD, but the physicians. So Asa slept with his fathers, having died
>> in
>> the forty-first year of his reign.
>>
>> It is obvious from the Bible that you should not consult a doctor!!!!!
>
> Hardly.
This has been quoted by many fundamentalist ministers as proof that one
should only use faith healings ... I have heard it since I became a
Christian in 1972.
>> Fundamentalism has done for Christianity what McDonalds has done for
>> gourmet
>> food.
>
> Christianity is not a religion but a personal relationship with the risen
> Christ.
Not what Jesus said!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all your
heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the FIRST and
GREATEST COMMANDMENT. And the SECOND is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO COMMANDMENTS." -
Matthew 22:37-40
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing
that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the
COMMANDMENTS, which is the MOST IMPORTANT?" "The MOST IMPORTANT ONE,"
answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God (GOD NOT THE
MESSIAH) the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with
all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all
your strength.' (Mark12:28-30)
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying,
"Teacher, WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?"
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he
answered, "You shall love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all
your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all
your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have
answered right; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE." (Luke 10:25-28)
These are repeated THREE TIMES. They are in each of the synoptic gospels.
The commandments do not mention anything about the finite human Jesus of
Nazareth, The Messiah ...or about being BORN AGAIN ... or about Christians
following any of the man made "fundamentals" ... or about Christians having
to believe in the bible ... or about Christians having to be fundamentalist
... OR ABOUT BELIEVING IN A PHYISCAL RESUSCITATION OF JESUS' CORPSE!!!! ...
OR ABOUT CONFESSING JESUS AS LORD GOD!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is recorded in Mark and Matthew about the CONTENT of the gospel that
Jesus preached?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MARK'S GOSPEL (ending at Mark 16:8)
1:15; 4:11; 4:14; 6:12; 9:1;13:9-10 all describe the gospel / good news as
announcing that the kingdom [realm] of God is here so one must turn away
from one's sins. Nothing more! Count how many times Jesus says the "the
kingdom of God is like" in Mark's gospel!
MATTHEW'S GOSPEL
4:17; 4:23; 5:19; 6:33; 7:21; 9:35; 10:7; 11:12; 12:28; 13:11; 13:19; 13:38;
13;52; 18:2; 19:23; 21:31 21:43; 23:13; 24:34; 25:34 ff; 26:13; describe the
gospel / good news as announcing that the kingdom [realm] of heaven is here
so one must turn away from one's sins. Nothing more! (Matthew prefers
'kingdom of heaven" to "kingdom of God") Count how many times Jesus says
the "the kingdom of God is like" in Matthew's gospel!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
>
> >> >> FYI, those with functioning God-given brains know that medicine is a
> >> >> man-made construct but is not meaningless.
> >> > Actually medicine is not a man-made construct
> >> Really?
> >
> > Just as neither physics nor mathematics are man-made constructs.
>
> Both are man made constructs. Read some philosophy.
I prefer the truth, Who is absolute. Now, philosophy is indeed a
man-made construct.
"A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him
(Paul). Some of them asked, 'What is this babbler trying to say?'
Others remarked, 'He seems to be advocating foreign gods.' They said
this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the
resurrection." (Acts 17:18)
> >> Tell that to all the people involved in constructing medical
> >> knowledge over the last few thousand years.
> > I am one of those people.
>
> So was my brother Dr Brett Tindall (see last post) ... and I am an educator
> (K-12 & Adult) and a philosopher.
A philosopher is "a person who seeks wisdom or enlightenment."
Source: http://www.m-w.com
According to the Holy Bible, the wisest mortal man ever was King
Solomon.
Did King Solomon become the wisest mortal man by studying philosophy?
> >> You have failed to use your God-given mind on the topic of God.
> >
> > Without the LORD, your opinion is meaningless (Ecclesiastes).
>
> Which "lord"?
There is only ONE.
"My LORD **and** my GOD!" -- "Doubting" Thomas upon seeing the risen
Christ.
> >> 2 Chr. 16:12-13 - In the thirty-ninth year of his reign Asa became
> >> diseased
> >> in his feet. His disease was severe, yet even in his disease he did not
> >> seek
> >> the LORD, but the physicians. So Asa slept with his fathers, having died
> >> in
> >> the forty-first year of his reign.
> >>
> >> It is obvious from the Bible that you should not consult a doctor!!!!!
> >
> > Hardly.
>
> This has been quoted by many fundamentalist ministers as proof that one
> should only use faith healings ... I have heard it since I became a
> Christian in 1972.
The Bible has been misquoted by many.
It remains my choice to refrain from judging others, even those who
misquote the Bible.
> >> Fundamentalism has done for Christianity what McDonalds has done for
> >> gourmet
> >> food.
> >
> > Christianity is not a religion but a personal relationship with the risen
> > Christ.
>
> Not what Jesus said!
Would suggest you read John 21:15-23.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all your
> heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the FIRST and
> GREATEST COMMANDMENT. And the SECOND is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
> yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO COMMANDMENTS." -
> Matthew 22:37-40
Amen.
> One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing
> that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the
> COMMANDMENTS, which is the MOST IMPORTANT?" "The MOST IMPORTANT ONE,"
> answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God (GOD NOT THE
> MESSIAH) the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with
> all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all
> your strength.' (Mark12:28-30)
Amen.
> And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying,
> "Teacher, WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?"
> He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" And he
> answered, "You shall love the Lord your God (GOD NOT THE MESSIAH) with all
> your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all
> your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have
> answered right; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE." (Luke 10:25-28)
Amen.
Without LORD Jesus Christ, no one can do what HE commands.
> These are repeated THREE TIMES. They are in each of the synoptic gospels.
> The commandments do not mention anything about the finite human Jesus of
> Nazareth, The Messiah ...or about being BORN AGAIN ... or about Christians
> following any of the man made "fundamentals" ... or about Christians having
> to believe in the bible ... or about Christians having to be fundamentalist
The discerning know that without LORD Jesus Christ, no one can do what
HE commands.
The commandments convict us sinners. The LORD's grace and mercy saves
us when we believe in HIM. In this way, we are saved by faith and not
by the act of following HIS commandments. Those saved by faith are the
ones who can following HIS commandments... not the other way around.
> ... OR ABOUT BELIEVING IN A PHYISCAL RESUSCITATION OF JESUS' CORPSE!!!! ...
> OR ABOUT CONFESSING JESUS AS LORD GOD!!!!
Yelling hysterically upon reading the way to salvation is a tell for
those who have satan's mark emblazoned across their foreheads.
For an understanding of the above, simply surf the link under my sig.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> What is recorded in Mark and Matthew about the CONTENT of the gospel that
> Jesus preached?
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> MARK'S GOSPEL (ending at Mark 16:8)
>
> 1:15; 4:11; 4:14; 6:12; 9:1;13:9-10 all describe the gospel / good news as
> announcing that the kingdom [realm] of God is here so one must turn away
> from one's sins. Nothing more! Count how many times Jesus says the "the
> kingdom of God is like" in Mark's gospel!
>
> MATTHEW'S GOSPEL
>
> 4:17; 4:23; 5:19; 6:33; 7:21; 9:35; 10:7; 11:12; 12:28; 13:11; 13:19; 13:38;
> 13;52; 18:2; 19:23; 21:31 21:43; 23:13; 24:34; 25:34 ff; 26:13; describe the
> gospel / good news as announcing that the kingdom [realm] of heaven is here
> so one must turn away from one's sins. Nothing more! (Matthew prefers
> 'kingdom of heaven" to "kingdom of God") Count how many times Jesus says
> the "the kingdom of God is like" in Matthew's gospel!
"All authority in heaven and earth has been given to ME. Therefore go
and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father and of the Son and o the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to
the very end of the age." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18-19)
Still praying for your poor enslaved soul, dear Mark.
"Mark T"
> I prefer the truth, Who is absolute.
So do I.
> "A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him
> (Paul). Some of them asked, 'What is this babbler trying to say?'
> Others remarked, 'He seems to be advocating foreign gods.' They said
> this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the
> resurrection." (Acts 17:18)
You really have to do better than that, Andrew. Use your God-given brain!
From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New
York:1951]
" ... the example of Moses, Daniel, and Paul, who were skilful in the
learning of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Greeks, which could not possibly
be without reading their books of all sorts, in Paul especially, who thought
it no defilement to insert into Holy Scripture the sentences of three Greek
poets, and one of them a tragedian ..." (Acts 17:28 from Aratus; 1
Corinthians 15:33 from Euripides; Titus 1:12 from Epimenides) p. 14
"Any man may be a heretic in the truth; and if he believes things only
because his pastor says so, or the Assembly so determines, without knowing
other reason, though his belief be true, yet the very truth he holds becomes
his heresy. There is not any burden that some would gladlier post off to
another, than the charge and care of their religion." p. 37
p.51 "And though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the
earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and
prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple; who
ever knew Truth to be the worse in a free and open encounter? Her confuting
is the best and surest suppressing."
>> So was my brother Dr Brett Tindall (see last post) ... and I am an
>> educator
>> (K-12 & Adult) and a philosopher.
>
> A philosopher is "a person who seeks wisdom or enlightenment."
Yep! That's me!
Fundamentalists have the following unfortunate features:
- a distrust and fear of freedom
- a belief in the importance of authority and in controlling what people
believe
- a correč²ponding preference for obedience rather than love
- a desire to give people what they want rather than the truth
- a refusal to allow themselves to be in the least disconcerted when
confronted with the true nature of their fundamentalist religion
- a readiness to persecute and exclude anyone who is of a different
persuasion.
They prefer authority, obedience, and conformity over freedom, truth, and
dissent.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nos...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>
> > I prefer the truth, Who is absolute.
>
> So do I.
Many thanks and praises to GOD for giving you a seeking heart.
> > "A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him
> > (Paul). Some of them asked, 'What is this babbler trying to say?'
> > Others remarked, 'He seems to be advocating foreign gods.' They said
> > this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the
> > resurrection." (Acts 17:18)
>
> You really have to do better than that, Andrew. Use your God-given brain!
The LORD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to debate.
> From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New
> York:1951]
> " ... the example of Moses, Daniel, and Paul, who were skilful in the
> learning of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Greeks, which could not possibly
> be without reading their books of all sorts, in Paul especially, who thought
> it no defilement to insert into Holy Scripture the sentences of three Greek
> poets, and one of them a tragedian ..." (Acts 17:28 from Aratus; 1
> Corinthians 15:33 from Euripides; Titus 1:12 from Epimenides) p. 14
>
> "Any man may be a heretic in the truth; and if he believes things only
> because his pastor says so, or the Assembly so determines, without knowing
> other reason, though his belief be true, yet the very truth he holds becomes
> his heresy. There is not any burden that some would gladlier post off to
> another, than the charge and care of their religion." p. 37
>
> p.51 "And though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the
> earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and
> prohibiting to misdoubt her strength. Let her and falsehood grapple; who
> ever knew Truth to be the worse in a free and open encounter? Her confuting
> is the best and surest suppressing."
>
Would suggest you pray that GOD gives you a discerning heart.
>
> >> So was my brother Dr Brett Tindall (see last post) ... and I am an
> >> educator
> >> (K-12 & Adult) and a philosopher.
> >
> > A philosopher is "a person who seeks wisdom or enlightenment."
>
> Yep! That's me!
>
> Fundamentalists have the following unfortunate features:
> - a distrust and fear of freedom
> - a belief in the importance of authority and in controlling what people
> believe
> - a correĀsponding preference for obedience rather than love
> - a desire to give people what they want rather than the truth
> - a refusal to allow themselves to be in the least disconcerted when
> confronted with the true nature of their fundamentalist religion
> - a readiness to persecute and exclude anyone who is of a different
> persuasion.
>
> They prefer authority, obedience, and conformity over freedom, truth, and
> dissent.
Sounds like you have a very low opinion of your Fundamentalist
neighbors.
Are you truly able to love them despite your harsh judgment of them?
Still praying for Don and for you, dear Mark.
duke
wrote:
>"Mark T" wrote:
>> "Tim K." wrote:
>>
>> > What I'm interested in learning is how people reconcile the notion of a
>> > loving god with all the terrible things that happen.
1. God wanted his creation to have a free will.
2. Man used his free will to tell God "no" re the fruit.
3. God accused man of thereby wanting to be a (g)od.
4. God kicked man out of the eternal garden to fend for himself.
5. Man tried to be a (g)od.
6. We suffer all man's failures at being a (g)od.
7. We must turn back to (G)od.
"Mark T"
>>> > What I'm interested in learning is how people reconcile the notion of
>>> > a
>>> > loving god with all the terrible things that happen.
>
> 1. God wanted his creation to have a free will.
> 2. Man used his free will to tell God "no" re the fruit.
> 3. God accused man of thereby wanting to be a (g)od.
> 4. God kicked man out of the eternal garden to fend for himself.
> 5. Man tried to be a (g)od.
> 6. We suffer all man's failures at being a (g)od.
> 7. We must turn back to (G)od.
It does not address the problem ..............
###################################################
Is god willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not
omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he
both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor
willing? Then why call him god? - Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
##################################################
David
furiously:
>On 6 Jun 2006 16:40:16 -0700, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nos...@heartmdphd.com>
>wrote:
>
>>"Mark T" wrote:
>>> "Tim K." wrote:
>>>
>>> > What I'm interested in learning is how people reconcile the notion of a
>>> > loving god with all the terrible things that happen.
>
>1. God wanted his creation to have a free will.
>2. Man used his free will to tell God "no" re the fruit.
>3. God accused man of thereby wanting to be a (g)od.
>4. God kicked man out of the eternal garden to fend for himself.
>5. Man tried to be a (g)od.
>6. We suffer all man's failures at being a (g)od.
>
>7. We must turn back to (G)od.
>
Why?
wbarwell
> On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:05:09 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> typed
> furiously:
>
>>On 6 Jun 2006 16:40:16 -0700, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
>><nos...@heartmdphd.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Mark T" wrote:
>>>> "Tim K." wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > What I'm interested in learning is how people reconcile the notion of
>>>> > a loving god with all the terrible things that happen.
>>
>>1. God wanted his creation to have a free will.
>>2. Man used his free will to tell God "no" re the fruit.
>>3. God accused man of thereby wanting to be a (g)od.
>>4. God kicked man out of the eternal garden to fend for himself.
>>5. Man tried to be a (g)od.
>>6. We suffer all man's failures at being a (g)od.
>>
>>7. We must turn back to (G)od.
>>
> Why?
An European god or an African god?
--
"I used to think the brain was the most fascinating part
of the body. Then I thought, "Look what's telling me
that."
- Emo Phillips
Cheerful Charlie
The Lord
> An European god or an African god?
Huh? I -- I don't know that!!
(AAAARRRRRGHHH....)
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> "duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >>> > What I'm interested in learning is how people reconcile the notion of
> >>> > a
> >>> > loving god with all the terrible things that happen.
> >
> > 1. God wanted his creation to have a free will.
> > 2. Man used his free will to tell God "no" re the fruit.
> > 3. God accused man of thereby wanting to be a (g)od.
> > 4. God kicked man out of the eternal garden to fend for himself.
> > 5. Man tried to be a (g)od.
> > 6. We suffer all man's failures at being a (g)od.
> > 7. We must turn back to (G)od.
>
> It does not address the problem ..............
Our sins are our problem.
Only the blood of the Lamb can wash away our sins so that we may be
presentable to LORD GOD Almighty.
To understand this, simply surf the link below my sig.
Still praying for your poor enslaved soul, dear Mark.