Math analysis of two songs, Sondheim's Send in the Clowns and Joni Mitchell's Both Sides, Now. Was one stolen from the other????

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Archimedes Plutonium

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Nov 27, 2021, 7:36:17 PM11/27/21
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Math analysis of two songs, Sondheim's Send in the Clowns and Joni Mitchell's Both Sides, Now. Was one stolen from the other????

So there I was yesterday, hearing the news that Stephen Sondheim the composer had died at age 91 and his beautiful Send in the Clowns music piece aired on tv.

And so I thought, well, I remember Joan Baez did a lovely rendition and was looking that up, but only Judy Collins comes in search hits. Hit after hit after hit is Judy Collins, never a Joan Baez. So I thought to myself, am I getting to the age in which I cannot remember who did what, outside of science? Are the microplastics building up so bad in my body, that soon I will have arthritis of the knees and the brain-- called Alzheimers, for Alzheimers is arthritis of the brain, and I suspect due to microplastic build up in the brain.

So I went to bed disappointed in not hearing Joan Baez sing Send in the Clowns. Although I did listen to Frank Sinatra sing it. And as a youth, a teenager in the 1960s and beyond I had a low opinion of Frank Sinatra because it sounded to me as though Frank was just talking and not singing. Perhaps later on when rappers come on the scene in the 1990s, all the rappers owe their debt of gratitude to Frank Sinatra as the worlds first and most beautiful rapp singer of alltime. When listening to Frank, you never have to worry about asking your friends "what, what was that word".

And so in old age now, I am immensely appreciative of Frank's voice and if I had been a singer, I think if I had a voice not as good as Pavarotti, I would chose Frank Sinatra.

But getting back to Send in the Clowns, I woke up the next day and to my surprise, a memory came back to the tune of Both Sides, Now, a song about clouds.

And then my memory clicked. I was confused because those two songs melodies sounded almost alike, only change the lyrics.

Then I looked to see if Joan Baez sung Both Sides, Now. It is uncertain if she did, for you are swamped with Judy Collins and Joni Mitchell.

In the years that Baez, Collins and Mitchell were born, across the world mothers had a fixation on the letter "J" something having to do with Chinese culture of the year of the dragon or year of the carrier pigeon or year of the rat, that this was the year of naming your girl child starting with the letter J.

And making it difficult for scientists such as AP, the King of Science who wants to read and learn these social facts and forget them 5 minutes later.

So, well, the only thing of value here for the King of Science, other than a little appreciation of music, some music, is the question of whether the two melodies are the same, where one was stolen from the other.

So I looked to see the date on the Sondheim Send in the Clowns and found it to be the 1970s while Both Sides Now is 1960s.

So I wonder if Sondheim stole the melody from Mitchell and just changed clowns for clouds.

So can someone more skilled in music than me, which is most of the people, for the King has more important concerns, can someone dig down deep and see if Send in the Clowns and Both Sides Now, basically have the same melody.

Not that I care all that much, for time away from physics, is idle leisure vacation time for the King of Science, but in answer to whether my mind is tricked and fooled into thinking these were very much different songs.

P.S. There is a similar situation with the Righteous Brothers two songs of Lost that Loving Feeling and the song Soul and Inspiration, for if you analze those two songs, you come to realize the same melody but different words.

AP, thanks in advance

Archimedes Plutonium

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Nov 28, 2021, 12:06:28 AM11/28/21
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So now the Righteous Brothers songs of Lost that Loving Feeling and Soul and Heart Inspiration are the same melodies with different words. And it would be difficult for most people to spot that they were the same melody as the lyrics tend to cover up the fact.

But in Send in the Clowns and Both Sides, Now, I think they are the same melody but speeded up in the Both Sides, Now lyrics.

Could it be that Sondheim heard Mitchell's song and just slowed it down and then wrote the Send in the Clowns lyrics?

But what comes of this, if true, is that if you have a great melody, then you can create new songs with different lyrics and have another great song. And most people would not notice they are identical melodies.

AP
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Archimedes Plutonium

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Nov 28, 2021, 1:26:23 PM11/28/21
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Alright, so we make a test of this claim that Send in the Clowns is the same melody as Both Sides Now.

So we go to known identical melodies and what we do is sing one line from each after the other and see if congruent.

Adeste fidelus, Oh come all yee faithful
Venite adoramus in dominium
Joyful and triumphant

So those two melodies are identical

Now we try another.

Your all my Soul and my Heart's Inspiration
You lost that loving feeling, woo woo that loving feeling
You lost that loving feeling, now its gone gone gone
Your all my Heart and my Soul's inspiration.

Yes, those two melodies are the same, but of course, since both are the Righteous Brothers there is no theft, no stealing from one or the other, unlike every day on Usenet someone trying to steal the works of AP, left and right.

Now let us try the clouds song with the clowns song.

I've looked at life from both sides now, and still somehow, its life's illusions I recall, I don't know love at all
Send in the clowns, where are the clowns, don't bother, their here.
Dreams and schemes and ferris wheels
Where are the clowns, there has got to be clowns

So, who stole from whom? Did Joni Mitchell steal from Stephen Sondheim or did Sondheim steal from Mitchell?

AP, not a record, not a jukebox, but the King of Science, especially physics, and you have to get up very early in the morning to fool the King.

FromTheRafters

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Nov 28, 2021, 2:34:09 PM11/28/21
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It happens that bwr fml formulated :
> On Saturday, November 27, 2021 at 4:36:17 PM UTC-8, Archimedes Plutonium
> wrote:
>> Math analysis of two songs, Sondheim's Send in the Clowns and Joni
>> Mitchell's Both Sides, Now. Was one stolen from the other????
>>
>> So there I was yesterday, hearing the news that Stephen Sondheim the
>> composer had died at age 91 and his beautiful Send in the Clowns music piece
>> aired on tv. ... But getting back to Send in the Clowns, I woke up the next
>> day and to my surprise, a memory came back to the tune of Both Sides, Now, a
>> song about clouds.
>>
>> And then my memory clicked. I was confused because those two songs melodies
>> sounded almost alike, only change the lyrics.
>>
>> AP, thanks in advance
>
> Oh, an AP claim. Let's do something totally out of character and actually try
> to test it.
>
> Compare side-by-side
>
> https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0051853
> and
> https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0039945
>
> the first page or two of the notes and those do not appear to have any
> similarity at all, which makes your claim that the tunes sound almost
> identical seem very questionable. But that is just the first page or two.
>
> Perhaps you could pay the cheap price to get the complete digital copies
> of each, subtract the two second by second and see if the result is almost
> exactly zero and present here what the result of that actual calculation is.
> Or you could calculate the correlation coefficient between those two,
> second by second, and show how you did that and what the result is.
>
>
> That would test your claim and show whether you were right or wrong

Now you've done it! He's taken the first page and cut it into a cone
shape.
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Archimedes Plutonium

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Nov 28, 2021, 3:56:01 PM11/28/21
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Archimedes Plutonium<plutonium....@gmail.com>
2:10 PM (1 hour ago)



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Now, what would be super interesting for the musical audience inclined, cannot say I am a cohort of such, for I hated concerts and preferred to stay at home and read up on Feynman Lectures of Physics, rather than go to a concert and have my ears dynamited out, come home deaf. But I was always more mature than my friends, except one of my friend's mother and father hated when I came over their house, because I had bought these Swiss Raichle triple ski boots of all leather with vibram sole and heal, weighing god knows how much, and I was always the one hyper active, and I suspect they hated me being over, because, well, thinking of their poor poor floor as this energetic teenager in triple boot Raichle would walk so fast through their kitchen floor, scuff up their floor. I know Walmart and other stores hated me coming in with Swiss mountain boots and spoil their new wax floors. But those were the good old young days of life where you had to try out all sorts of things.

But what I was getting at, albeit slowly, is it would be fun to have whoever is still alive of the big "J's", of Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, Judi Collins,the big "J's" even Judi Dench singing together; 2 singing Send in the Clowns and 2 of them singing Both Sides Now, singing simultaneously and see if in fact the two melodies are perfectly the same. Sort of reminds me of the festive Christmas monks singing different melodies in unison. I need something like that to put me in the holiday mood. Please, what say you, the big "J's", can you cheer up the world in this Christmass holiday coming up shortly with 2 of you singing Both Sides Now simultaneously 2 of you singing Send in the Clowns???

How about it, ladies, give us one for the "gyper" as Ronald Reagan used to say. And maybe Judy Woodruff (she must have been born in the same Chinese new year of "J" that the other ladies were born, or else be banished to the suburbs), and maybe Judy will interview the big "J's" in concert. With Nick Schieffren telling us if the big J's quieted the Western Front of Ukraine and Russia, for we do want a All Quiet on the Western Front. Please give us one for the great gyper.

AP, Konig of Science, especially Physics
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Archimedes Plutonium

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Nov 28, 2021, 6:29:24 PM11/28/21
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This comedy on the letter "J" has me thinking. All of my comedy, in fact, everything I do in life is not far from science. I am always in science mode, from when I get out of bed to when I fall asleep. I cannot say that my dreams are science thoughts, but of another world.

So I discovered the 6th regular polyhedron from noting that physics is perfect with 6 laws of EM theory, so there had to be a 6th regular polyhedron and I wrote a book on what that figure was.

But now shifting attention to the phonetic alphabet. And there are 26 letters in the English alphabet, 5 vowels and 21 consonants.

So I was wondering, can I reduce the consonants to just 6 and up the vowels to be 6 vowels while retaining all the basic needs of the English language?

For instance, we really do not need a letter "J" because "G" does everything that a "j" does. And "S" does everything that a "X" does. And "F" does everything a "V" does. So can I reduce the consonants down to just 6, and increase the vowels from 5 to that of 6? Mind you without losing a single bit of the English language.

I think it is highly possible because I read where one language has just 12 letters in all -- Rotokas, a East Pauan language. So that would fit with my needs of 6 vowels and 6 consonants for English.

And the theory behind all of this, is the theory that all of Physics is reducible to 6 laws of physics.

AP, King of Science, especially Physics
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