Question on Formatting
Jonathan Groves
I access sci.math through Math Forum offered by Drexel University. All my postings on sci.math as seen by me on Math Forum look fine (in terms of formatting). However, several people have told me already that my postings appear on one or several very long lines. One person told me he/she accesses sci.math outside Math Forum and gave me a link that showed me how my message appeared to this person.
One recently told me I ought to use the enter key, but in Math Forum it's unnecessary to do so since there is a window that controls line lengths. The same is true for word processors, other software for producing documents, even many other discussion forums online. The only time it is necessary to use the enter key is to start a new line.
It is clear to me that wherever these people are accessing sci.math, that program does not seem to have automatic line breaks to prevent lines from becoming too long. I know there are places outside Math Forum where I can see sci.math postings of mine where the formatting looks just fine, where the lines aren't too long (and these postings I did see are postings where the only times I used the enter key were after the greeting and after paragraphs ended).
I wonder too if using the enter key helps. From what they have told me, it seems that everything appears to them on one long line (but the message could have been worded inaccuarately, and the example I saw was a message where I never used the enter key since it was only a single paragraph); if everything does appear in one long line--even those messages of mine with multiple paragraphs, then using the enter key won't fix the problem.
Please let me know if the formatting of my message looks fine to you. If it appears on one long line (not several, but only one), please let me know. If possible, please provide a link so that I can see for myself how it looks to you. If it does appear on one long line, then using the enter key won't fix the problem because this message here consists of several paragraphs. I have hit the enter key twice after the greeting and twice after each paragraph to put blank lines between paragraphs and between the greeting and the beginning of the message and between the end of the message and the closing.
Jonathan Groves
Greg Neill
> Dear All,
>
> I access sci.math through Math Forum offered by Drexel University. All my
postings on sci.math as seen by me on Math Forum look
> fine (in terms of formatting). However, several people have told me
already that my postings appear on one or several very long
> lines. One person told me he/she accesses sci.math outside Math Forum and
gave me a link that showed me how my message appeared
> to this person.
>
> One recently told me I ought to use the enter key, but in Math Forum it's
unnecessary to do so since there is a window that
> controls line lengths. The same is true for word processors, other
software for producing documents, even many other discussion
> forums online. The only time it is necessary to use the enter key is to
start a new line.
Most Usenet newsgroups are fundamentally simple ascii based
text forums. This is a legacy from the early days when access
devices were simple terminals; there were no PC's with windows.
Math Forum is not Usenet. It may provide a web interface to the
USenet groups, but it is not Usenet.
If you want your posts to be intelligible to all use line breaks and a
fixed width font (such as courier). Assume you're dealing with the
lowest common denominator devices - an 80 column dumb terminal.
Just because you have a fancy web interface via Math Forum does
not mean that everyone on Usenet has.
Kaba
> Dear All,
Jonathan,
My suspicion is that newsreaders insert additional new-lines _after
pushing send_ to meet some at-most-x-characters-per-line-or-so
"standard". While I am writing this very paragraph, my newsreader wraps
to 72 characters, and I do not type a single new-line. When I view my
message after posting, it looks exactly like I see it in the editor.
Does this paragraph appear as 7 lines to you (as it does to me) or as a
single long line?
My theory is that the Math Forum does not perform this 'clipping
process'. Could there be some flag to enable this? Clearly it is not an
option to manually insert new-lines inside a paragraph.
Kaba
> My suspicion is that newsreaders insert additional new-lines _after
> pushing send_ to meet some at-most-x-characters-per-line-or-so
> "standard".
Ok, I can confirm this with my newsreader 'Microplanet Gravity'. There
is an explicit setting which defines the "line wrap width" which is
defaulted to 73 (guess I calculated wrong). I suspect other newsreaders
have a similar setting.
Dave L. Renfro
> I access sci.math through Math Forum offered by Drexel
> University. All my postings on sci.math as seen by me
> on Math Forum look fine (in terms of formatting). However,
> several people have told me already that my postings
> appear on one or several very long lines. One person
> told me he/she accesses sci.math outside Math Forum and
> gave me a link that showed me how my message appeared
> to this person.
From a 24 September 2007 post of mine:
------------------------------------------------------
Just do what I've been doing for years -- copy to a pure
text editor (e.g. MicroSoft's Notepad) and write your
posts there. It's the only way to be sure [1]. Then copy
what you have and paste it into the google [or Math Forum]
posting window. Make sure you say something like "boo-boo
wrote:" at the beginning so the quoted part (use > signs
followed by one space) is correctly attributed to its author.
[1] http://www.google.com/search?q=it's-the-only-way-to-be-sure+aliens
------------------------------------------------------
Incidentally, there are several other reasons I do this.
For one thing, I don't always write a post all at once,
since I'm at work where I can only devote a minute or two
here and there, so having it on Notepad allows me to
un-minimize the file to work on my post when I have an
idea or when I feel the need for a short break. Also,
this allows me to avoid losing everything I've written
if there is a power failure or (more likely) my computer
gets locked up for some reason and I have to restart it.
Every half minute or so, I'll stop and save the file
(Ctrl + S) to make sure that I can't lose what I've written.
[Both rarely happen in recent years, but in the 1990s
both happened quite frequently to me and I got burned
too many times to ever take a chance again (except for
very short replies that I could easily retype from memory).]
Finally, as for how long the lines are, I seem to remember
reading a long time ago that you should never go over
71 (or maybe 72, I don't remember now) characters in
a line, otherwise you run the risk of some people seeing
unintended line breaks in what you wrote. In my case,
in anticipation that what I write might get quoted 4
or 5 times, I allow a little extra room for those extra
carrot symbols. I don't know about you, but some posts
are almost impossible to read after multiple quotings
because of end-user-machine line breaks that come in
between the quoted lines, and it's almost impossible to
make out who is saying what when the quotes get nested
4 deep or more. I also find it hard to write without
using the "enter" key, because I typed so much on manual
typewriters in the 1970s and 1980s (I never had sufficient
money and the need to buy a word processing machine in
the 1980s). It's a little easier to not accidentally do
this when I'm writing math manuscripts and such with
Scientific Workplace, because the writing is always so
slow (what is the best way to phrase something, putting
in math symbols, thinking about how to best write
up a proof, etc.) that I'm rarely in a situation where
I'm just typing away on autopilot like I do when I'm
writing a post.
Dave L. Renfro
Angus Rodgers
<renf...@cmich.edu> wrote:
>Finally, as for how long the lines are, I seem to remember
>reading a long time ago that you should never go over
>71 (or maybe 72, I don't remember now) characters in
>a line, otherwise you run the risk of some people seeing
>unintended line breaks in what you wrote. In my case,
>in anticipation that what I write might get quoted 4
>or 5 times, I allow a little extra room for those extra
>carrot symbols. I don't know about you, but some posts
>are almost impossible to read after multiple quotings
>because of end-user-machine line breaks that come in
>between the quoted lines, and it's almost impossible to
>make out who is saying what when the quotes get nested
>4 deep or more.
I've also found that keeping lines of text to 66 characters or
less enables me to paste them straight into a LaTeX {verbatim}
environment, without having to reformat them (except when they
are quoted, of course). This is handy, for instance, when I'm
having trouble with some textbook exercise, I discuss it in
sci.math, I get an answer within 10 minutes from Wade Ramey,
Robert Israel, David Ullrich, or one of the other gurus, and I
paste the conversation into my LaTeXed notes on the textbook.
(I hasten to add that I'm not doing a course, so I'm not doing
homework, so it isn't cheating!)
--
Angus Rodgers
Jonathan Groves
> From a 24 September 2007 post of mine:
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Just do what I've been doing for years -- copy to a pure
> text editor (e.g. MicroSoft's Notepad) and write your
> posts there. It's the only way to be sure [1]. Then copy
> what you have and paste it into the google [or Math Forum]
> posting window. Make sure you say something like "boo-boo
> wrote:" at the beginning so the quoted part (use > signs
> followed by one space) is correctly attributed to its author.
> [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=it's-the-only-way-to-be-sure+aliens
I am writing this post according to what Dave Renfro suggested.
I hope everyone who had trouble seeing my earlier post because it
appeared as several long lines will now see it with no formatting
problems. Please let me know if this idea worked. I am also
hitting enter after my lines reach the ends of the quoted lines above
to try to prevent them from becoming a mile long.
I will write a second paragraph to see if everyone can see two
paragraphs. It did surprise me to see that there are interfaces
out there for accessing sci.math that don't have maximum line
lengths like e-mails and word processors and Math Forum do.
Why should those people creating and running those newsgroups
continue to use such primitive technology?
Jonathan Groves
Jonathan Groves
> > Dear All,
>
> Jonathan,
>
> My suspicion is that newsreaders insert additional
> new-lines _after
> pushing send_ to meet some
> at-most-x-characters-per-line-or-so
> "standard". While I am writing this very paragraph,
> my newsreader wraps
> to 72 characters, and I do not type a single
> new-line. When I view my
> message after posting, it looks exactly like I see it
> in the editor.
> Does this paragraph appear as 7 lines to you (as it
> does to me) or as a
> single long line?
Yes, it appears as seven lines. Looks fine
to me.
> My theory is that the Math Forum does not perform
> this 'clipping
> process'. Could there be some flag to enable this?
> Clearly it is not an
> option to manually insert new-lines inside a
> paragraph.
This appears to be a reasonable explanation.
Whether you can manually insert new lines or
not, I don't know. I don't know if Math Forum has
this "clipping option" or not.
quasi
wrote:
The new formatting looks good.
With my newsreader, I could read your old formatting (that is, my
newsreader automatically inserted line breaks for readability), but
trying to reply to your old posts required a lot of manual fixing up.
With your current formatting, there's no problem with regard to either
reading or replying.
quasi
Greg Neill
>
> It did surprise me to see that there are interfaces
> out there for accessing sci.math that don't have maximum line
> lengths like e-mails and word processors and Math Forum do.
> Why should those people creating and running those newsgroups
> continue to use such primitive technology?
'Cause if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
First you add a web interface, then the next thing you've got
pop-ups and adware coming at you from left, right, and center,
throbbing, flashing icons, ad space that continually changes size
and shifts the text around while you're trying to read it, when all
you wanted to do was browse the content of the newsgroup.
Peter Webb
newsreader. OE at least implements automatic "word wrap" so the line length
is matched to the window screen, and dynamically changes as you alter the
window size. I can post lines as long as I like, and nobody has ever
complained that it appears as a single long line.
The above was a single long line, without line breaks.
I bet nobody sees it as a single long line.
"Jonathan Groves" <JGr...@Kaplan.edu> wrote in message
news:29323854.1235145877...@nitrogen.mathforum.org...
Mensanator
<webbfam...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
> Your post looks absolutely fine to me when viewed using the Outlook Express
> newsreader. OE at least implements automatic "word wrap" so the line length
> is matched to the window screen, and dynamically changes as you alter the
> window size. I can post lines as long as I like, and nobody has ever
> complained that it appears as a single long line.
>
> The above was a single long line, without line breaks.
>
> I bet nobody sees it as a single long line.
But we see it as top-posting.
>
> "Jonathan Groves" <JGro...@Kaplan.edu> wrote in message
> > Jonathan Groves- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Aatu Koskensilta
> Your post looks absolutely fine to me when viewed using the Outlook
> Express newsreader. OE at least implements automatic "word wrap" so
> the line length is matched to the window screen, and dynamically
> changes as you alter the window size. I can post lines as long as I
> like, and nobody has ever complained that it appears as a single long
> line.
>
> The above was a single long line, without line breaks.
No it wasn't.
--
Aatu Koskensilta (aatu.kos...@uta.fi)
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen"
- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
Kaba
> I am writing this post according to what Dave Renfro suggested.
> I hope everyone who had trouble seeing my earlier post because it
> appeared as several long lines will now see it with no formatting
> problems. Please let me know if this idea worked. I am also
> hitting enter after my lines reach the ends of the quoted lines above
> to try to prevent them from becoming a mile long.
It's good now:)
> Why should those people creating and running those newsgroups
> continue to use such primitive technology?
There is no single group of people running newsgroups. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
The news are mainly distributed between the servers of ISPs (Internet
Service Providers, the ones you pay for your connection).
Jonathan Groves
When I asked about primitive technology, I wasn't asking about
using all this fancy stuff that you're talking about; I was asking
about why some of these newsgroups don't fix the problem of lines
becoming too long. That way, anyone who wants to post from anywhere
doesn't have to worry about this problem and can type messages
as if they are typing them in e-mail or on a word processor.
I do agree that ads are a major problem on many websites; they
seem to be everywhere these days! Even websites I had seen that
used to not have ads at all now have them in your face on nearly
every page you look at on that website!
Greg Neill
Because "newsgroups" are not a physical thing; there's no central
owner of them, and no one place that they reside or are processed.
Usenet is a community of users passing around messages between
themselves via software servers. These servers do not impose any
formatting on the message content (well, not beyond ensuring that
they conform to the nntp protocol). In the past these servers were
simply "donated" services mainly hosted by universities. Then the ISPs
stepped in and offered Usenet services to their customers, but they
soon discovered that the nature of Usenet prevents them from making
a buck on it by selling advertising with it (The exception is the likes
of Google who have wrapped it up in a complicated web interface.
People who have used 'real' newsreaders are generally not impressed
by the limitations and annoyances imposed). That's why many ISPs
are now dropping or farming out their Usenet service offerings.
Michael Press
<17807403.1235168389...@nitrogen.mathforum.org>,
Jonathan Groves <JGr...@Kaplan.edu> wrote:
New does not imply better. Read up on what USENET is,
and what it is not. USENET is a pure text based system
for exchanging messages. It is _not_ the web. Mathforum
is a pirate. They built a web based interface
to sci.math and act as if it is themselves responsible
for it all. That is not true. Sci.math predates Drexel
Mathforum by many years. Not satisfied with pirating,
Drexel Mathforum spews abominably formated messages into
sci.math. But wait, there's more. Drexel Mathforum
deliberately throws away data in the References:
header line. Drexel Mathforum is a bad net citizen.
My advice: find a news server, get a free newsreader
and do things right, regardless of how primitive it is.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<12160572.1235229575...@nitrogen.mathforum.org>,
Jonathan Groves <JGr...@Kaplan.edu> wrote:
Your conception of what a newsgroup is incorrect.
Read up on what is USENET. USENET is a bunch of
news servers exchanging messages. Nobody is in charge.
--
Michael Press