Acoustics of Gold?
Mark Folsom
them than those copper/nickel things do. Ditto for sterling forks. Gold is
closely related, but again, I don't know.
Mark Folsom
Akilli <aki...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991120003922...@ng-fg1.aol.com...
> Greetings,
> As there are individuals who own solid gold flutes, does gold in
any
> way enhance the tonal qualities produced. The advantages of gold plating
are
> clear enough as regards tarnish, but what does solid gold provide aside
from
> ostentation? I would assume also that for durability's sake, it is not
pure
> gold which is being used; but who knows?
> Much Obliged,
> Ethan Gross
Akilli
Uncle Al
Cement flutes have been cast - they are indistinguishable from fine
metal or cheap plastic versions at the same level of workmanship. An
expensive flute is meticulously crafted, a cheap one is not. That is
the principal difference. Obviously a soft, heavy, unworkable, or
deformable material has severe strikes against it. Delrin is quite
wonderful for wind instruments out of the carrying case, but it has a
problem with moisture absorption over time in condensing atmospheres.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby/uncleal/
http://www.guyy.demon.co.uk/uncleal/
(Toxic URLs! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
Kevin G. Rhoads
materials -- however in this case I believe that your answer, for a change,
is overly simple.
The flute, like many other musical instruments, does not merely modulate
vibrational waves in the atmosphere -- the body of the instrument also
vibrates. Although this effect may be small for flutes, it is present, and
anything which modifies it will modify the"sound" albeit in small, subtle
-- and perhaps irrelevant -- ways. The vibration of the instrument body
affects the overtone structure of the atmospheric vibrations.
For flutes, the use of SILVER, which has a good hardness with low internal
friction and damping results, in all other variables being held constant,
in an
instrument which is considered superior (both by the ears of trained
musicians
and by harmonic analysis of the sound by sensitive acoustic measurement)
to an instrument made of, for example, nickel plated brass or other more
common metals.
Gold being more ductile than the metals usually used in the making of such
instruments, may be more readily wrought into proper form, but the body
resonances will likely be dulled, and due to it's greater density, shifted
(i.e.,
musically "off").
Perhaps we have some materials' experts who are also musicians (or vice
versa)
who would care to comment (to our communal elucidation)?
--
Kevin G. Rhoads, Ph.D. (The Cheshire Cat for official Internet mascot.)
kgrhoads@NO_SPAM.alum.mit.edu
material guy
(internal friction). Plate it to encapsulate the horrid 2% Be in the
alloy which really won't "leak out" anyway.
Used it as a structural material in equipment designed to measure
damping losses due to point defects. The parts had a real sweet ring to
them.
jim buch
Entropyfoe
EDGAR VARESE,
"Density 21.5 for Solo Flute" to commemorate the density of his newly
manufactured platinum flute.
Miyazawa has platinum components available, as well as gold, silver and nickel,
saying the platinum "has superior throwing power to the sound."
http://www.miyazawa.com/flutes.htm
Jay
Materials Guru and musician
>Subject: Acoustics of Gold?
>From: aki...@aol.com (Akilli)
>Date: Sat, 20 November 1999 12:39 AM EST
>Message-id: <19991120003922...@ng-fg1.aol.com>
>
>Greetings,
> As there are individuals who own solid gold flutes, does gold in any
>way enhance the tonal qualities produced. The advantages of gold plating are
>clear enough as regards tarnish, but what does solid gold provide aside from
>ostentation? I would assume also that for durability's sake, it is not pure
>gold which is being used; but who knows?
> Much Obliged,
> Ethan Gross
entr0pyf0e
William Kaukler
material guy <jbu...@postoffice.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3837570E...@postoffice.pacbell.net...
> I'd vote for beryllium - copper age hardened alloy for low damping
> (internal friction). Plate it to encapsulate the horrid 2% Be in the
> alloy which really won't "leak out" anyway.
Nice idea except for one thing.... would a society like ours that wishes to
ban Pb-Sn solder allow anything that has even a ppm of Be to come in regular
skin-contact with people?
I personally resent that certain organizations want to ban the use of
worthwhile materials like lead-solder and beryllium copper that have not
shown any ill effects to society. These same 'types' banned lead from
gasoline based on the same fears. However, as people will soon learn, the
additives to substitute for the tetraethyl lead are far more toxic once
passed through an engine (into our lungs). Maybe we'll all be forced to use
electric cars to fix that problem. Oh! Wait...these electric cars each
carry a half-ton of lead or other nasty metals. Oh-well......
Dr. K
MLclan
>friction and damping results, in all other variables being held constant,
>in an
>instrument which is considered superior (both by the ears of trained
>musicians
>and by harmonic analysis of the sound by sensitive acoustic measurement)
>to an instrument made of, for example, nickel plated brass or other more
>common metals.
>
>Gold being more ductile than the metals usually used in the making of such
>instruments, may be more readily wrought into proper form, but the body
>resonances will likely be dulled, and due to it's greater density, shifted
>(i.e.,
>musically "off").
>
>Perhaps we have some materials' experts who are also musicians (or vice
>versa)
>who would care to comment (to our communal elucidation)?
>--
>Kevin G. Rhoads, Ph.D. (The Cheshire Cat for official Internet mascot.)
>kgrhoads@NO_SPAM.alum.mit.edu
The good doctor has it right, the acoustical impedance of gold would tend to
cause dampening of the induced vibration. I have used many materials, from
silver to lead, in acoustically matching laser modulators (which tend to 'ring'
when switched). We ended up settling on silver.
Platinum or a hardened gold alloy may make a good instrument, I've just never
had the pleasure of playing one.
I played woodwinds for many years, and all of them produced resonances in the
instrument itself.
Mark
Mark Folsom
news:gFMZ3.32702$YI2.1...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com...
>
> material guy <jbu...@postoffice.pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3837570E...@postoffice.pacbell.net...
> > I'd vote for beryllium - copper age hardened alloy for low damping
> > (internal friction). Plate it to encapsulate the horrid 2% Be in the
> > alloy which really won't "leak out" anyway.
>
> Nice idea except for one thing.... would a society like ours that wishes
to
> ban Pb-Sn solder allow anything that has even a ppm of Be to come in
regular
> skin-contact with people?
You're not aware of the beryllium-nickel alloys commonly used in dental
crowns and bridges?
Mark Folsom
Robert S Rodgers
ago on Columbia records. Mighty fine piece, in fact, one of my favorites!
Bob
Robert S. Rodgers, Ph.D. Consultant in Electrochemistry
Research Solutions & Resources, PO Box 7561 Princeton, NJ 08543-7561
bob.r...@ConsultRSR.com http://www.ConsultRSR.com
rsro...@home.com http://members.home.net/rsrodgers
"Entropyfoe" <entro...@aol.com>
William Kaukler
reached public attention and I was not concerned about their safety. Add
that to the list with dental amalgams, medical uses for PMMA & silicones and
why not add free-machining brass illegal for use in plumbing in California.
Only after the special interest groups advertise the 'danger' of these
materials will the public even know such materials are being used everyday.
Mark Folsom <fols...@redshift.com> wrote in message
news:s3ga5s...@corp.supernews.com...
Stuart Hill
>> As there are individuals who own solid gold flutes, does gold in any
>>way enhance the tonal qualities produced. The advantages of gold plating are
>>clear enough as regards tarnish, but what does solid gold provide aside from
>>ostentation? I would assume also that for durability's sake, it is not pure
>>gold which is being used; but who knows?
particular regard to the notion that vowel shapes formed with the vocal tract
could affect the final tone.
Our supervisor was a firm believer that it wasn't the material that caused the
instrument to sound better but the craftsman ship, as implied by Uncle Al.
It stands to reason that an instrument made out of a more expensive material
will be of inherently better quality with regards to workmanship in the first
place. The same thing happens in the saxophone world with people claiming that
the amount of lacquer can affect the tone. I even have a friend who swears by
his gold ligature(Metal bracket holding the reed to the mouthpiece) even
though it is indistguishable from my bog standard ligature.
The problem with musical instruments is that two instruments will not be
Exactly the same so are hard to compare.
On a similar vein, a company is now looking at producing acoustic guitars out
of a plastic composite which are as good as high quality guitars made from
Rosewood.
CYA
Stu
Pirouz Djoharian
I'm looking for some references on frequency dependence of the internal loss of
several common materials (metals, woods, glasses, ..). I am a physical model
sound synthesist and I doing some experiments on the musical relevance of the
material choice. Any information would be helpful.
Regards,
Pirouz
Stuart Hill a écrit:
--
Pirouz Djoharian
A.C.R.O.E._I.N.P.G. 46, avenue Felix Viallet 38031 Grenoble France
Tel (33) 0476574653
e-mail : Pirouz.D...@imag.fr
material guy
internal damping vs frequency for a lot of materials.
The damping experiments tend not to lend themselves to generation of
these spectra, partly because some experiments are free decay of
vibrating mechanical systems and that is not so easily tunable by a dial
on electronic instruments.
Here is hoping that the above information is incorrect, however.
jim buch
Pirouz Djoharian
There are plenty of references on materials' viscolelasticity in which I've found
internal damping versus temperature graphs, but what I need is the frequency
dependence of the loss factor. At least, the location of the peaks and their relative
heights will be helpful. I think the temperature / frequency equivalence (even, if it
may be assumed) doesn't provide relaxation spectra.
Pirouz
material guy a écrit:
Tel (+33/0) 476574653
e-mail : Pirouz.D...@imag.fr
Jim Flowers
properties of wood, I came across a research article where different wall
materials for flutes were compared. No significant differences were found,
much to the amazement of the researchers and the professional musicians
consulted. Now the mouthpiece is another story. Sorry, but I don't have the
reference for you.
Jim Flowers
Stuart Hill <phy...@phys-irc.novell.leeds.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:1999Nov22.1...@leeds.ac.uk...
Uncle Al
Jim Flowers wrote:
>
> When I was doing some research about 15 years ago on the acoustical
> properties of wood, I came across a research article where different wall
> materials for flutes were compared. No significant differences were found,
> much to the amazement of the researchers and the professional musicians
> consulted. Now the mouthpiece is another story. Sorry, but I don't have the
> reference for you.
There is some continuing debate whether stiffness, hardness, and
internal damping makes a difference. If so, then the penultimate
flute would be made of Platigem PtAl2 (Mintek, European patents; with
some copper addition to control bandgap and color for aesthetics).
The stuff is so hard it takes and holds facets.
The ultimate flute then would be carved out of monocrystal diamond,
but it would be very cold on the lip and somewhat expensive.
BEBRENT
>The ultimate flute then would be carved out of monocrystal diamond.
That could be laborious. I'll wait for the paper on how it would be easily
done.
Regards,
Brent in Memphis (no "junk" for e-mail)
Uncle Al
BEBRENT wrote:
>
> >Uncle Al's write:
>
> >The ultimate flute then would be carved out of monocrystal diamond.
>
> That could be laborious. I'll wait for the paper on how it would be easily
> done.
You get a big lump of diamond (or a Czochralski pull) and excimer
laser machine it in a reactive atmosphere.
We have an interest in crystallizing kilogram gem diamond from
elemental carbon precursor in solvent at room pressure. We've taken
two cracks at it. The first was a graphitic bummer. The second was
OK chemically but suffered a corrosion problem - Devil Solvent
dissolves fused silica, alumina, zirconia, mullite, and every other
(realtively inexpensive) dielectric ceramic we could think of, plus
some very expensive nickel crucibles - which prevented externally
monitoring and controlling the process. Starting materials sat there
in solution, waiting for a green light that never arrived.
Devil Solvent II is more tractable. We're redesigning the reactor
head for air gap insulation for our probes. New alloy liners. All it
takes is money. Maybe next year.
Won't de Beers be surprised?
material guy
Aerospace Corporation work on carbons would soon make "Suitcase Sized"
diamonds common and cheap.
There were national cartoons showing the problems of ladies lugging
diamond rings with suitcase sized diamonds on them.
Frankly, I do hope that you, or someone else, is successful in large
synthetic diamonds.
But promise the suitcased sized ones to reporters only AFTER you have
made briefcase sized ones.
Good luck.
jim buch
Uncle Al
material guy wrote:
>
> 25 years ago, a former boss of mine made a claim to a reporter that the
> Aerospace Corporation work on carbons would soon make "Suitcase Sized"
> diamonds common and cheap.
>
> There were national cartoons showing the problems of ladies lugging
> diamond rings with suitcase sized diamonds on them.
>
> Frankly, I do hope that you, or someone else, is successful in large
> synthetic diamonds.
>
> But promise the suitcased sized ones to reporters only AFTER you have
> made briefcase sized ones.
"8^>) Bulk monocrystal dimaond is the stuff of an advanced
technological civilization.
Thermodynamic large diamond synthesis is limited to about 825,000 psi
and 1450 C. Making a good carat crystal requires about a week (aside
from Russian claims), e.g., Sumidiamond. The bigger you want the
slower you must go to avoid inclusions. 5 carats, a niggardly gram,
is as big as MTBF and budget allow. Also note the 36% volume collapse
graphite to diamond, plus /_\(PV) being an energy term (101.3
J/liter-atm), makes growth of gem diamond necessary as a
recrystallization from low quality diamond feed to seed. Expensive.
Kinetic growth of diamond, e.g., Brad Pate's PhD thesis and CVD
diamond, occurs from the gas phase and the resulting percolative
growth leads to unavoidable multiple twinning.Put in a clean diamond
crystal, pull out diamond cauliflower. CVD is also horribly energy
and capital equipment intensive.
There is, at least on paper, an organic synthesis route to single
crystal diamond from solution at ambient pressure (in a supremely
nasty chemical environment) like growing rock candy from sucrose.
That is what we invented and what we are pursuing. In principle one
could do a Czochralski pull from the pot to grow a single crystal
dimaond 30 cm wide and a meter long, as with silicon. Or scale up to
vats and produce tonnes/day of diamond sheet. Localizing the
admittedly aggressive chemistry with adequate control has proven to be
something of a bother.
We eliminated graphitization, we controlled corrosion. Next year,
budget permitting, we take one final grand stab at the Big Kahuna.
Even if the process only produces carat gems initially from hour runs,
it rapidly becomes self-funding one way or another.
BEBRENT
>Devil Solvent II is more tractable. We're redesigning the reactor
>head for air gap insulation for our probes. New alloy liners. All it
>takes is money. Maybe next year.
>
>Won't de Beers be surprised?
Wouldn't we all.