Short Hungarian a is rounded

[Ruud Harmsen]

More visual proof of the rounded nature of the Hungarian short /a/
phoneme: https://youtu.be/83qd2EUft9A?t=547

No microphone in the way, fine close-up. Very convincing, no room for
doubt whatsoever.

[Dingbat]

What is the Hungarian pronunciation of László Almásy? In the English Patient,
(film) the actor playing him pronounces the name with an English accent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Patient_(film)

[Christian Weisgerber]

On 2022-09-18, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What is the Hungarian pronunciation of László Almásy?

/ˈlaːsloː ˈɒlmaːʃi/

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Tim Lang]

as for the subject line: "sometimes", because only those
are concerned who don't have the gift of the gab and/or
whom their "logopedic" professors/trainers never taught
how to better control the relationship nerve impulses
and muscular contractions. As well as this: if good or
bad singers, one should control his/her ... grimasses
as soon as on the stage or broadcast (even in close-ups).
Those shown are a shame for their profession (or as
a German saying goes: "Es ist zum ... Fremdschämen".)
I wouldn't "buy a ticket" to go to the singing shows
of such artists. And the German minority gal Ildikó
(Hilde) Hencz (Hentz) Keller sings in a regional
country-side Hungarian with specific alterations of
some of the vowels inventory; makes grimasses, exag-
gerating the lip movements, showing she is no
professional singer (the voice is also untrained).
Whole lotta "petty" aspects and features, but real
ones (to put it in a nutshell). And I already mentioned
in one of my posts that the male singer, Dolhai, who
sings the song "Hej, cigány!", ostentatively exagerates
the movements of the entire muscular tissues of his
mouth - and might even be ... proud of that! His
teachers should keep him away from the operette house.
But, hey, operette and opera are domains where this
is quite an occurrence in all languages. But when
singing folk(lore) songs, such "rictus" movements
of the gab shouldn't be tolerated (or the singer
should be told by the appropriate environment to
better control the fine motility).

On 18.09.2022 11:33, Dingbat wrote:

>What is the Hungarian pronunciation of László Almásy?

['la:slo: 'ɒlma:ʃɪ]

Noteworthy (in the gemination context):

The spelling of this surname, esp. when the bearer is
a member of the aristocrat clan, is Almássy.

The -y ending is the typical sign for belonging to the
nobility.

The spelling -y without belonging to that social class
might be tolerated (treated in a liberal way) today but
I doubt that this was possible prior to 1900.

Cf. the name of the clan Eszterházy (high nobility;
otherwise it would be spelled Eszterházi). Or the
name of the former French president: Sárközy. His
father was a Hungarian nobleman from the lower
gentry or knight ranks. Otherwise the spelling should be
Sárközi. This was the name of the former president
of the Romany minority in Austria, Rudolf Sárközi,
who passed away a few years ago.

The doubling of the -s- OTOH is a typical aspect
of ... showing off ("lo and behold, who I am!" =
"ki vagyok mi vagyok!"): normal spellings are replaced by
invented ones, to show the "plebs" ... "we're different",
"we're ... de genere" (of aristocr. descent). But
Almássy is too moderate. Take something like Dessewffy
(instead of the normal Dezsőfi "son of Desiderius"),
Weör(r)ess (Veres(s) "Red, Roth, Rufus") or even
Eötvös (Ötvös "(Black)Smith", another word for the
ubiquitous Kovács with the same meaning).

Tim

[Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com>]

On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 3:28:56 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
> as for the subject line: "sometimes", because only those
> are concerned who don't have the gift of the gab and/or
> whom their "logopedic" professors/trainers never taught
> how to better control the relationship nerve impulses
> and muscular contractions. As well as this: if good or
> bad singers, one should control his/her ... grimasses
> as soon as on the stage or broadcast (even in close-ups).
> Those shown are a shame for their profession (or as
> a German saying goes: "Es ist zum ... Fremdschämen".)
> I wouldn't "buy a ticket" to go to the singing shows
> of such artists. And the German minority gal Ildikó
> (Hilde) Hencz (Hentz) Keller sings in a regional
> country-side Hungarian with specific alterations of
> some of the vowels inventory; makes grimasses, exag-
> gerating the lip movements, showing she is no
> professional singer (the voice is also untrained).

Yes, it's a shame. Kubinyi Júlia also sings a bad kind of
Hungarian. Very unnatural.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REq8wa06pTY
Sometimes slightly out of tune too.

> But, hey, operette and opera are domains where this
> is quite an occurrence in all languages. But when
> singing folk(lore) songs, such "rictus" movements
> of the gab shouldn't be tolerated (or the singer
> should be told by the appropriate environment to
> better control the fine motility).

Right.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sun, 18 Sep 2022 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT): "Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups
<goo...@rudhar.com>" <goo...@rudhar.com> scribeva:

>On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 3:28:56 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
>> a regional
>> country-side Hungarian with specific alterations of
>> some of the vowels inventory; makes grimasses, exag-
>> gerating the lip movements, showing she is no
>> professional singer (the voice is also untrained).
>
>Yes, it's a shame. Kubinyi Júlia also sings a bad kind of
>Hungarian. Very unnatural.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REq8wa06pTY
>Sometimes slightly out of tune too.

Bognár Szilvia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py-EZ_aNNsM
especially:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py-EZ_aNNsM&t=5m05s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t8MVvmJ164

Bad Hungarian, wrong voewels.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:12:30 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

Specifically: 3:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t8MVvmJ164&t=3m55s
Very rounded.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:18:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>>Bognár Szilvia
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py-EZ_aNNsM
>>especially:
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py-EZ_aNNsM&t=5m05s
>>
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t8MVvmJ164
>>
>>Bad Hungarian, wrong voewels.
>
>Specifically: 3:55
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t8MVvmJ164&t=3m55s
>Very rounded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t8MVvmJ164&t=12m27s
My phonetic spelling notation (without any idea what it means):
aguja árnyékat
Interesting how short <a> changes to long <á> here, watch the lip
movements, i.e. the lip position changes.

Again, note: it is already rather slow, but Youtube can reduce
playback speed even more, under Settings.

I see a general tendency that stressed (so initial) short <a>'s have
more liprounding than final ones, although sometimes final ones are
also quite clearly rounded.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sun, 18 Sep 2022 21:36:32 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>I see a general tendency that stressed (so initial) short <a>'s have
>more liprounding than final ones, although sometimes final ones are
>also quite clearly rounded.

Also, some people have a somewhat clearer variety of short <a>, e.g.
this singer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u-blsk1NwM&list=RDGMEMc6JZQrQ__ROET3gGdz-Trw&index=12
The lyrics are in the video, and in the comments, but without them,
I'd sometimes mistake her short <a> for a long one. With other
speakers/singers, that is never the case.

She also has a very high <é>, almost like [i:].

According to https://www.last.fm/music/Fondor+zenekar/+wiki, her name
would be Kinga Krámli (or Krámli Kinga in Hungarian, I suppose).

Cf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9L267qP8v8&list=RDEMto8PCTOBaqCSdci-QBrcSQ&start_radio=1

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 26 Sep 2022 11:57:58 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>

Look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVRhChCTKJ8
You can hear AND see that she often (not always) has less rounding
than other people. Probably a regional or personal trait.