Need help compiling an etymological word list of Boktürkçe.

140 views
Skip to first unread message

mu...@compuplus.net

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 7:57:37 AM11/19/19
to
I have been searching the Internet for weeks and been
very disappointed with not finding an etymological word
list (in some digital format) of the language spoken in
Turk-ia, (which in my opinion is wrongly called Turkish).

I think calling that language Ottomanish, Anatolianish,
etc. would be more appropriate. And if it has to include
the word "Türk" in it, I propose "Boktürkçe" (Shit-Türkish),
that I coined to sound like Göktürkçe (which I consider
to be the last "Türkçe" = Türk dili = Turkish language).

Similarly, the populations of Turk-ia (Northern Arabia)
who are anything but Turks, should be called "Boktürks".

I hope these two words (my humble contributions to the
Turkish language) will find acceptance/meaningful usage.

When I read and listen to the current language that those
people speak, I am tempted to guess that it must consist
of loanwords from mostly Arabic 30%(??) and several other
languages adding up to about 55%(??), with only 10-15%
of it being "Turkish".

I would like to know what the real ratios are and be able
to sort, filter, tabulate, count to analyse it from many
different angles.

However even TDK doesn't have an etymological dictionary
of what they call "Türkçe". Can it be because that they
would be too ashamed to call that "shit soup" of language
"Turkish" if we all knew the "ingredients"??

Worse comes to worse I can compile my own simple list
but I'm hoping that I won't need to reinvent the wheel.

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.

MK

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 8:26:13 AM11/19/19
to
sounds like a sock-puppet of Franz.

Yusuf B Gursey

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 10:04:51 AM11/19/19
to
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 7:57:37 AM UTC-5, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:

There is a project that is supposed to compile an extensive, proffesional etymological dctionary of Turkish, but has not really been launched. Most good dictionaries like Redhouse will tell you if a word is of Arabic or Persian or French / English origin via bookish learning, but have gaps concerning words of Greek, Armenian, or Colloquial Persian origin etc., or concerning words that come from Old or Middle Turkic but have been borrowed at that time from other languages such as Sogdian, Middle Persian, Chinese, Tocharian etc.. For those the best source is still Sevan Nişanyan's onlıne Turkish etymological dictionary online

https://www.nisanyansozluk.com/

It has some errors or controversial entries, but still useful.

Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 10:25:49 AM11/19/19
to
Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:04:49 -0800 (PST): Yusuf B Gursey
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 7:57:37 AM UTC-5, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:
>
>There is a project that is supposed to compile an extensive, proffesional etymological dctionary of Turkish, but has not really been launched. Most good dictionaries like Redhouse will tell you if a word is of Arabic or Persian or French / English origin via bookish learning, but have gaps concerning words of Greek, Armenian, or Colloquial Persian origin etc., or concerning words that come from Old or Middle Turkic but have been borrowed at that time from other languages such as Sogdian, Middle Persian, Chinese, Tocharian etc.. For those the best source is still Sevan Ni?anyan's onl?ne Turkish etymological dictionary online
>
>https://www.nisanyansozluk.com/
>
>It has some errors or controversial entries, but still useful.

I admire your ability to always stay polite, serious and helpful, even
amid avid insults.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Athel Cornish-Bowden

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 12:55:52 PM11/19/19
to
I have long had the same admiration of Yusuf's character. There was a
frequent poster at alt.usage.english who asked Yusuf many questions,
always received polite, serious and helpful answers, and often reacted
rudely. The poster in question was, I understand, autistic, and
possibly was unable to understand how his rudeness was perceived.


--
athel

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 21, 2019, 3:03:17 AM11/21/19
to
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:26:13 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> sounds like a sock-puppet of Franz.

I would never speak in such a way of Turkish. In case you did not notice
(being a sad clone of the sad clown Faucounau) I am a fan of the Goebekli
Tepe, great legacy to humankind, origin of Neolithic, making this period
of time double as old as before. - By the way, I got for the second time
an e-mail by someone who calls himself Yusuf Gürsey, with a link I did
of course not open. Someone must be stealing Yusuf's identity for a bad
purpose.

Yusuf B Gursey

unread,
Nov 21, 2019, 10:23:53 AM11/21/19
to
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 3:03:17 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:26:13 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > sounds like a sock-puppet of Franz.
>
> I would never speak in such a way of Turkish. In case you did not notice
> (being a sad clone of the sad clown Faucounau) I am a fan of the Goebekli
> Tepe, great legacy to humankind, origin of Neolithic, making this period
> of time double as old as before. - By the way, I got for the second time
> an e-mail by someone who calls himself Yusuf Gürsey, with a link I did

It was not me.

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 22, 2019, 3:21:16 AM11/22/19
to
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 4:23:53 PM UTC+1, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>
> It was not me.
>

Thanks fot he confirmation. I didn't believe that is was you, not for one
moment. But still somewhat freightening how people can steal online
identities.

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Nov 22, 2019, 9:21:59 AM11/22/19
to
More likely, Yusuf's Contacts list has been phished.

mu...@compuplus.net

unread,
Nov 25, 2019, 1:49:04 AM11/25/19
to
On November 19, 2019 at 8:04:51 AM UTC-7, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:

> There is a project that is supposed to compile an extensive,
> proffesional etymological dctionary of Turkish, but has not
> really been launched.

Do you mean it's un-really launched and available by request?

> Most good dictionaries like Redhouse will tell you if a word
> is of Arabic or Persian or French / English origin via bookish

Do you know of any available in digital format?

> learning, but have gaps concerning words of Greek, Armenian,
> or Colloquial Persian origin etc., or concerning words that
> come from Old or Middle Turkic but have been borrowed at that
> time from other languages such as Sogdian, Middle Persian,
> Chinese, Tocharian etc.

This is a good point that I should keep in mind...

> For those the best source is still Sevan Nişanyan's online
> Turkish etymological dictionary online
> https://www.nisanyansozluk.com/
> It has some errors or controversial entries, but still useful.

Yes, I've been using it many years but it's only for online
lookup. I emailed him for a digital file but got no answer.

I also found a pfd by someone calles Erkan Kiraz and these pages

https://tr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kategori:Türkçe_diğer_dillerden_alınan_sözcükler

http://www.turkcesozluk.org/browse-page-1/

But they are all partial and would need to be merged into a full
word list from TDK, after lots of manipulations and corrections.

I was hoping to find a mostly complete list that I can easily
import, sort, analyse, etc. for the simple purpose of finding
out the percentages of Turkish and foreign borrow word in the
language I called Boktürkçe.

Even if I can't count them for myself, do you know of any stats
by others?

Do you happen to have your own stats, estimates or guestimates?

MK

mu...@compuplus.net

unread,
Nov 25, 2019, 1:57:05 AM11/25/19
to
On November 19, 2019 at 6:26:13 AM UTC-7, Arnaud Fournet wrote:

> sounds like a sock-puppet of Franz.

I had offered my opinion based on a logical argument
and also asked for better info if available. Ignoring
both, you chose to insult me and someone called Franz
with a one liner, which I am sure proves you to be a
superior asshole to me and perhaps to Franz as well...

MK

mu...@compuplus.net

unread,
Nov 25, 2019, 2:04:57 AM11/25/19
to
On November 19, 2019 at 8:25:49 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> I admire your ability to always stay polite, serious
> and helpful, even amid avid insults.

Insults are relative but I agree on Yusuf's ability to
focus on the more important content part of the posts
and reply with calm politeness, which I always looked
at as his being well trained and able for his mission...

MK

mu...@compuplus.net

unread,
Nov 25, 2019, 2:13:51 AM11/25/19
to
On November 21, 2019 at 1:03:17 AM UTC-7, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> I would never speak in such a way of Turkish.

Neither would I speak in such a way of Turkish.

I was speaking in such a way about Shitturkish.

Get it...??

You may disagree with me on what can or can not
be called Turkish but that wouldn't take away my
right to form and express my own opinion on the
subject.

> In case you did not notice
> (being a sad clone of the sad clown Faucounau)
> I am a fan of the Goebekli Tepe,

I wouldn't object if the inhabitants of Turk-ia
decided to proudly call the language they speak
"Göbekli-Tepeish"... ;)

MK

mu...@compuplus.net

unread,
Nov 28, 2019, 6:26:37 PM11/28/19
to
On November 24, 2019 at 11:49:04 PM UTC-7, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:

As follow up to his response, I shared some info that I had found
and I asked a few more questions but I guess Yusuf isn't willing
to engage beyond polite quote/paraphrase/link/elementary comment
(ala "cluster-user") on some issues(??) with some people(??). :(

While jumping from link to link, I came accross this about you:

https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2015/07/19/can-teach-physics-for-room-and-board

I'm curious about what is the writing you are holding in the photo?

But I'm even more curious to know what happened to "the linguistic
theory" that the article said you were working on..? (The one that
"you believed would surprise the Muslim and Turkish community".)

MK

Yusuf B Gursey

unread,
Nov 29, 2019, 6:45:04 PM11/29/19
to
On Thursday, November 28, 2019 at 6:26:37 PM UTC-5, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:
> On November 24, 2019 at 11:49:04 PM UTC-7, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:
>
> As follow up to his response, I shared some info that I had found
> and I asked a few more questions but I guess Yusuf isn't willing
> to engage beyond polite quote/paraphrase/link/elementary comment
> (ala "cluster-user") on some issues(??) with some people(??). :(
>
> While jumping from link to link, I came accross this about you:
>
> https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2015/07/19/can-teach-physics-for-room-and-board
>
> I'm curious about what is the writing you are holding in the photo?


My grandfather's handbook on X-Rays and X-Ray technology and medicine. The first on the subject in Turkey, published in Ottoman script.

>
> But I'm even more curious to know what happened to "the linguistic
> theory" that the article said you were working on..? (The one that
> "you believed would surprise the Muslim and Turkish community".)

I gave a talk on it in Turkey and I hope to publish it.

>
> MK

Yusuf B Gursey

unread,
Nov 29, 2019, 6:54:02 PM11/29/19
to
On Monday, November 25, 2019 at 1:49:04 AM UTC-5, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:
> On November 19, 2019 at 8:04:51 AM UTC-7, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>
> > There is a project that is supposed to compile an extensive,
> > proffesional etymological dctionary of Turkish, but has not
> > really been launched.
>
> Do you mean it's un-really launched and available by request?
>

I always hear that such a work must be done, that a committee is being set up, but never a firm commitment or an actual body not to mention a complete work.

> > Most good dictionaries like Redhouse will tell you if a word
> > is of Arabic or Persian or French / English origin via bookish
>
> Do you know of any available in digital format?

There is the TDK website.


>
> > learning, but have gaps concerning words of Greek, Armenian,
> > or Colloquial Persian origin etc., or concerning words that
> > come from Old or Middle Turkic but have been borrowed at that
> > time from other languages such as Sogdian, Middle Persian,
> > Chinese, Tocharian etc.
>
> This is a good point that I should keep in mind...
>
> > For those the best source is still Sevan Nişanyan's online
> > Turkish etymological dictionary online
> > https://www.nisanyansozluk.com/
> > It has some errors or controversial entries, but still useful.
>
> Yes, I've been using it many years but it's only for online
> lookup. I emailed him for a digital file but got no answer.
>

No. There is an actual book, biut the online site is more authoritative and gets updated.

> I also found a pfd by someone calles Erkan Kiraz and these pages
>
> https://tr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kategori:Türkçe_diğer_dillerden_alınan_sözcükler
>
> http://www.turkcesozluk.org/browse-page-1/
>
> But they are all partial and would need to be merged into a full
> word list from TDK, after lots of manipulations and corrections.
>
> I was hoping to find a mostly complete list that I can easily
> import, sort, analyse, etc. for the simple purpose of finding
> out the percentages of Turkish and foreign borrow word in the
> language I called Boktürkçe.
>
> Even if I can't count them for myself, do you know of any stats
> by others?
>

Occasionally TDK has anounced stats, I would expect based on obvious loanwords, those that have entered the language through study.

> Do you happen to have your own stats, estimates or guestimates?

If I did a search I think it is possible to make an estimate


>
> MK

Yusuf B Gursey

unread,
Nov 29, 2019, 6:55:42 PM11/29/19
to
On Thursday, November 28, 2019 at 6:26:37 PM UTC-5, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:
> On November 24, 2019 at 11:49:04 PM UTC-7, mu...@compuplus.net wrote:
>
> As follow up to his response, I shared some info that I had found
> and I asked a few more questions but I guess Yusuf isn't willing
> to engage beyond polite quote/paraphrase/link/elementary comment
> (ala "cluster-user") on some issues(??) with some people(??). :(
>


I have been busy with other matters.

DKleinecke

unread,
Nov 29, 2019, 8:00:48 PM11/29/19
to
Good Luck on your employment and your research.

Yusuf B Gursey

unread,
Dec 3, 2019, 10:35:10 AM12/3/19
to
Thank you.

benboru1

unread,
Feb 19, 2021, 5:08:09 AMFeb 19
to
On December 3, 2019 at 8:35:10 AM UTC-7, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On November 29, 2019 at 8:00:48 PM UTC-5, DKleinecke wrote:

>>>> But I'm even more curious to know what happened to "the linguistic
>>>> theory" that the article said you were working on..? (The one that
>>>> "you believed would surprise the Muslim and Turkish community".)
>>>> MK

>> Good Luck on your employment and your research.

> Thank you.

Here we are over a year later... Has Yusuf and/or TDK made any progress?

Consequently, I haven't either but I'm still interested and willing to try...

What I would like to know is the ratio of loanwords from various languages
to Turkish proper in the language currently spoken in Turkey that is misnamed
Turkish, which I have been calling "Boktürkçe" (Shit-Turkish).

I had compiled a word list of about 70K last year, that I can sort out based
on etymology (from various sources, except unfortunately from TDK which
should now be called BDK = Bok Dil Kurumu!).

But I also and rather would have a weighted list based on the frequency of
those words, as used within the past 5 years or so (not from 1945-1950)...

I will try to make personal contacts with people who can help me
with this using already done work. Otherwise, I will try to do my
own statistics.

I can understand that most/all of you wouldn't approve of my
politically incorrect view of Boktürkçe, but what about helping
me in the name of science? Err, pseudo-science or better yet
"studies" in linguistics...?

MK
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages