is 系統 (meaning 'system') a calque ?

[henh...@gmail.com]

is 系統 (meaning 'system') a calque ?

no, but if the Chinese had a practice of using

系........... words and
.........統 words,

THEN it seems a bit like a calque (what the Jp ppl did)



> Taking an example from the last link: the
> Japanese combine the elements 系 [kei] and 統 [tō] to form a new compound
> word 系統 [keitō] meaning 'system'. The Chinese have the same two
> characters, so writing the new word is no problem; in speaking it,
> rather than try to approximate the Japanese pronunciation, they give the
> characters their normal Chinese pronunciation, so [xìtǒng].

Isn’t that what for other language pairs is called a calque?



______________________

is 系統 in this dictionary? i can't find it (the entry).

Cen Qixiang. (1990). Hanyu wai lai yu cidian. 汉语外来语词典. A Dictionary of Foreign Words and Loan Words in Chinese.Beijing: Shang wu yin shu guan. 商务印书馆. The Commercial Press.

[Tak To]

On 3/28/2023 5:27 PM, henh...@gmail.com wrote:
> is 系統 (meaning 'system') a calque ?
>
> no, but if the Chinese had a practice of using
>
> 系........... words and
> .........統 words,
>
> THEN it seems a bit like a calque (what the Jp ppl did)
>
>
>
>> Taking an example from the last link: the
>> Japanese combine the elements 系 [kei] and 統 [tō] to form a new compound
>> word 系統 [keitō] meaning 'system'. The Chinese have the same two
>> characters, so writing the new word is no problem; in speaking it,
>> rather than try to approximate the Japanese pronunciation, they give the
>> characters their normal Chinese pronunciation, so [xìtǒng].
>
> Isn’t that what for other language pairs is called a calque?

No.

系 <xi4> is hierarchy by affinity and 統 <tong3> is hierarchy
by control. Collectively it refers to an analytical view
of the organization of complex and abstract entities.

This is then generalized to "things-that-work-together" --
i.e., system.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[henh...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, April 6, 2023 at 12:10:56 PM UTC-7, Tak To wrote:
> On 3/28/2023 5:27 PM, henh...@gmail.com wrote:
> > is 系統 (meaning 'system') a calque ?
> >
> > no, but if the Chinese had a practice of using
> >
> > 系........... words and
> > .........統 words,
> >
> > THEN it seems a bit like a calque (what the Jp ppl did)
> >
> >
> >
> >> Taking an example from the last link: the
> >> Japanese combine the elements 系 [kei] and 統 [tō] to form a new compound
> >> word 系統 [keitō] meaning 'system'. The Chinese have the same two
> >> characters, so writing the new word is no problem; in speaking it,
> >> rather than try to approximate the Japanese pronunciation, they give the
> >> characters their normal Chinese pronunciation, so [xìtǒng].
> >
> > Isn’t that what for other language pairs is called a calque?
> No.
>
> 系 <xi4> is hierarchy by affinity and 統 <tong3> is hierarchy
> by control. Collectively it refers to an analytical view
> of the organization of complex and abstract entities.
>
> This is then generalized to "things-that-work-together" --
> i.e., system.
>

(off topic)



> A system of cells interlinked within
> Cells interlinked within cells interlinked
> Within one stem.

i thought VN (Nabokov)'s use of [system] was a bit suspicious...
i think he likes idea of [ Cyto + stem == System ] ------- in a Lewis Carroll-esque way.




Cyto- is a combining form used like a prefix meaning “cell.” It is used in many scientific terms, especially in medicine and biology. Cyto- comes from the Greek kýtos, meaning “container,” “receptacle,” “body.”


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cistern#Etymology
.................from Latin cisterna, from cista (“box”), from Ancient Greek κίστη (kístē, “box”). Doublet of cisterna.


are Greek kýtos, meaning “container,”
and Ancient Greek κίστη (kístē, “box”) related??????



https://genius.com/John-francis-shade-pale-fire-a-poem-in-four-cantos-annotated
............... Give me now
Your full attention.
I can't tell you how
I knew--but I did know that I had crossed
The border. Everything I loved was lost
But no aorta could report regret.
A sun of rubber was convulsed and set;
And blood-black nothingness began to spin
A system of cells interlinked within
Cells interlinked within cells interlinked
Within one stem. And dreadfully distinct
Against the dark, a tall white fountain played.