Re: Is the Pope Catholic?

[António Marques]

Steve Hayes wrote (21-03-2013 09:32):
> Melkites/Melchites is a term applied to several different groups, and it
> is therefore best avoided.

It doesn't work like that. 'Melkite' means the hierarchy officially
recognised by the [Eastern] Roman Empire (and nowadays, any hierarchy
claiming succession to one such). It's not an informal term. If a church is
melkite, it is melkite. Compare 'Autochtonous is a term applied to several
different groups, and it is therefore best avoided'.

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 21, 1:33 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Mar 21, 3:17 am, Dr Nick <nospa...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:
> > > On 20/03/13 11:32 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >> On Mar 19, 8:20 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> > >>> On 19/03/13 11:36 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> > >>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:03:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > >>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >>>>> On Mar 19, 9:00 am, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:24:35 +0000, John Briggs
> > >>>>>> <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 19/03/2013 03:21, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > >>>>>>>> What does the Italian word "rag " mean in England?
>
> > >>>>>>> It isn't used - except in technical discussions such as this, of course.
> > >>>>>>> Hence the imprecise use of "sauce".
>
> > >>>>>> Rag is a brand name of sauce-in-a-jar that originated in the US and
> > >>>>>> crossed the Atlantic to the UK in 1971.
>
> > >>>>>> The jars are on the shelves of many supermarkets and convenience stores
> > >>>>>> in the UK. So the word "Rag " is familiar. How many people know its
> > >>>>>> meaning is another matter.
>
> > >>>>>>http://www.ragu.co.uk/products
>
> > >>>>>> It is my guess that the majority of people in the UK who eat "Italian"
> > >>>>>> food do so at home rather than in an Italian Restaurant. They will buy
> > >>>>>> either a frozen ready-meal to be microwaved or prepared ingredients
> > >>>>>> requiring minimal preparation and cooking
>
> > >>>>>> For instance:http://www.ragu.co.uk/products/traditional-chunky
>
> > >>>>>>       Traditional Chunky
>
> > >>>>>>       Nothing brings out the taste of Italy better than a beautiful
> > >>>>>>       Bolognese sauce. So to feed your whole family with the best
> > >>>>>>       spaghetti dish in town, just reach for Rag
>
> > >>>>>>       Spaghetti Bolognese
>
> > >>>>>>       Loved in the thirties, adored today. Your Bolognese will be even
> > >>>>>>       better when you rustle up this recipe
> > >>>>>>       Serves  3-4  Ready in 15 mins
>
> > >>>>>>       Method
>
> > >>>>>>       Place 500g of minced beef into a saucepan and stir over a medium
> > >>>>>>       heat for 5 minutes or until lightly browned all over
>
> > >>>>> Wow. The American for that is "brown 1 lb. of lean ground beef." (And
> > >>>>> it's done in a frying pan, or skillet, rather than a saucepan; the
> > >>>>> thickness of the metal is extremely relevant to the quality of the
> > >>>>> result.)
>
> > >>>> I use a frying pan for browning the meat. I then transfer the browned
> > >>>> meat to a saucepan and add the contents of the jar and continue cooking
> > >>>> the mixture.
>
> > >>> I do any cooking of that sort in one of my electric woks.
> > >>> A saucepan is too likely to cause the meat to boil; a frying pan is too
> > >>> shallow and I might spill some when I add the sauce - I am most
> > >>> assuredly not going to use two vessels for cooking in when I have to do
> > >>> my own washing up.
>
> > >> Is that the ultimate in laziness??
>
> > >> BTW, how does meat "boil"?
>
> > > Meat contains water. If you put too much meat in at once, instead of
> > > frying, it boils. That's why cookery books always tell you to add meat
> > > in small batches.
>
> > Something you might have noticed that PTD also expressed incredulity
> > about.  It's odd how we Brits seem to know more about the practicalities
> > of cooking than he does.
>
> > You need to be able to have most of the meat in contact with the metal
> > of the pan for it to brown, and for the released water to evaporate.
> > Hence a big pan and small portions.
>
> Your "big pans" must be awfully small.
>
> A pound of ground beef -- or "500 g of mince" -- is accommodated
> perfectly well by a standard cast-iron frying pan (I think it's 12",
> but I've never had to buy one -- my mother gave me an extra one 40+
> years ago).
>
I have a lovely, large, deep, cast-iron frying pan - also a maternal
gift. It used to be the only thing that turned out perfect omelettes.

Sadly I don't use it that much now. Since, about five years ago, they
seem to have, finally, perfected the non-stick pan, I find that a very
light omelette pan can do the job as well.

It's odd, really, that they made such a fuss about 'non-stick' pans
when they first came out, when they didn't really work, or, if they
did, only did so for a month or so.

[António Marques]

Steve Hayes wrote (21-03-2013 09:33):
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:35:13 +0000, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>
> wrote:
>
>> Dennis wrote (20-03-2013 09:09):
>>> Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>>>> the Melchite Pope is also named Teodros II
>>>
>>> ??? The Melkites actually comprise several groups:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchite
>>>
>>> Some are Eastern Rite Catholics, who would have the current Vatican
>>> Pope as pope, others are Orthodox, and the Orthodox don't have a
>>> pope. Which Melkites do you mean? Is the Coptic Pope Tawadros II
>>> the same one as 'their' pope?
>>
>> He obviously meant the church *in Egypt* that continues the imperial
>> (melkite) hierarchy. The patriarch of the coptic catholics doesn't use
>> the title 'Pope' not because he is in communion with the Roman Pope but
>> because the title only makes sense when used by the successor of St.
>> Mark, and the coptic catholics do not have that pretension in full.
>
> Are the Coptic Catholics who are in communion with the Roman pope also
> called Melkites?

No, since they don't continue the imperial hierarchy but have instead split
from the coptic one - which in turn has common origins with the imperial
hierarchy (after Cyril in the 5th century the schism began, though
Theodosius in the 6th century was briefly accepted by both) - and so was
'imperial' too, in a sense, before the schism, but that applies to all such
cases (i.e. 'melkite' comes into play only after a schism, not before).

I think a problem in this thread is that Yusuf started off speaking of
'*the* Pope'. It then follows that 'coptic Pope' would be a kind of supreme
head of a 'Coptic Church' and 'melkite Pope' would be a kind of supreme head
of a 'Melkite Church'. But it doesn't work that way. Both are the heads of
their patriarchates and that is because they are their patriarchs. But
'coptic' and 'melkite' tell us nothing in this regard. There isn't a 'coptic
church', however you parse the term, in which the coptic pope is analogous
to the roman pope, nor the same re 'melkite'.

[António Marques]

Steve Hayes wrote (21-03-2013 10:00):

> That was in the 5th century. The Chalcedonian party were called "Melkite"
> because they generally had the support of the Emperor over the water. But they
> also had the support of the other major churches, which at that time were
> Rome, Constantinople, Antioch and Jerusalem.
>
> For about a century following the Chalcedon in 451 the two parties struggled
> to get their own candidate in as Pope.
>
> But the mid-6th century the Church of Alexandria had split, and there have
> been two popes ever since, each tracing his succession back to St Mark. The
> interesting (and somewhat confusing) thing at the moment is that both are
> called Pope Theodore II.

Maybe you should write them an e-mail complaining about it?
The even more interesting thing is that each had a different Theodoros I as
predecessor.

> I am sure that somewhere on the web, if you really want to, you could find the
> tables of succession of both, and you could see exactly where they diverge.
>
> But using the term "Melkite" in this context today is disingenuous and
> misleading.

No, it is not. In Egypt there is a melkite hierarchy and a coptic hierarchy
which both trace their origins to St Mark (and there is a coptic catholic
hierarchy which split off from the latter). No one is confused by that and
no one thinks 'melkite' has anything to do with Antioch especially.

Do you know what 'disingenuous' means?

[Tak To]

On 3/20/2013 5:15 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> On Mar 20, 1:01 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>>>> On Mar 20, 11:19 am, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>>> Peter T. Daniels filted:
>>>
>>>>>> My objection is to "beef sauce." The collocation is uninterpretable.
>>>>>> Normally it would mean 'sauce for beef', but that's not the case, so
>>>>>> there's nothing else it could mean but 'sauce made of beef', which is
>>>>>> absurd.
>>>
>>>>> Ever heard of "soy sauce"?...r
>>>
>>>> do you put soy sauce on your spaghetti?
>>>
>>> No, clearly he puts it on his soy. Just as he puts clam sauce on his
>>> clams, oyster sauce on his oysters, tomato sauce on his tomatoes,
>>> lobster sauce on his lobster, black bean sauce on his black beans,
>>> orange sauce on his oranges, etc.
>>
>> A little careless of you -- lobster sauce is indeed sauce designed for
>> lobster, not sauce with lobster in it.
>
> Interesting. I knew it didn't actually have lobster in it, at least
> as served in the US, but I didn't know it was a sauce designed for
> lobster. I had figured that it was originally made with lobster, but
> chefs had found a way of making something that tasted similar with
> cheaper ingredients.
>
> On the other hand, Wikipedia says that it "may have" gotten that name
> due to being derived from a family of sauces that were poured over
> stir-fried lobster, and follows that with a "citation needed".
>
> Actually, if I was being picky, I could note that there are quite a
> few recipes for "lobster sauce" in other cuisines that do, indeed,
> contain lobster. (For instance, the recipe in Raquel Roque's _The
> Cuban Kitchen_, Sophia Lindhal's _The Swedish-American Cookbook_, or
> Olive Green's, _How to Cook Fish_.) But the Chinese sauce was the one
> I was thinking of.
>
> On the other other hand:
>
> When the recipe arrived, I was puzzled that it didn't include
> lobster. So I called Kim. She explained that long ago, lobster
> shells were used to make the sauce for this dish. But the majority
> of restaurants now simply use a "creamy" sauce.
>
> so perhaps it's not really clear why the sauce got that name.

Not likely.

First of all, most Chinese cuisines (Cantonese included)
do not have a "sauce" in the French sense. What is
there is thickened jus. Near the end of stir-frying
(or braising, etc), a small amount of a starch (corn
starch, tapioca flour, etc) is mixed with water and
then stirred into the wok to thicken the jus. The
idea is to not waste the flavors in the jus by
thickening it and coating the food chunks with it.

Black bean sauce, hoisin sauce, oyster (flavored)
sauce etc are pre-made like steak sauce. They are
mainly for cooking, though some of them can also be
used directly on cooked food.

Second, when stir-frying chunks of lobsters or crabs
(with shells, always), it is a common technique to
add seasoned ground pork so that the meat flavor and
seafood flavor would complement each other. The
small pieces of meat also helps to spread heat more
evenly and carry the jus into the crevices between
the shell and the meat. And since pork is cheaper
than lobsters or crabs, this also makes a dish more
substantial in an inexpensive way. Egg or egg white
is sometimes added to the ground pork.

So that is the nature of "lobster sauce" in authentic
Cantonese cuisine. It is just a cooking method, and
not specifically for lobsters.

I don't know when this became a pour-over sauce for
shrimps.

I suppose if a restaurant also serves shelled lobster,
the chef might start this pour-over sauce with a stock
made with lobster shells. Otherwise there is really
no way to get lobster shells cheaply.

>> Cf. the Cantonese menu standard "shrimp with lobster sauce," one of
>> my favorites in the 1950s when Charlie Chan -style Chinese
>> restaurants were the only ones there were. (Now they're almost all
>> gone.)

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[John Briggs]

But it is best avoided: you should use 'autochthonous' instead.
--
John Briggs

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 21, 8:16 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> Steve Hayes wrote (21-03-2013 09:33):
>
>
>
>
>

> > On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:35:13 +0000, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt>

? what I refer to as the "Coptic Church" is a well defined non-
Chalcedonian Church organization, having subordinate organizations in
Ethiopia and Eritrea and is headed by a native Copt. the Chalcedonian
counterpart is within Greek Orthodoxy.

[António Marques]

And the coptic church is within 'Oriental Orthodoxy'*. Neither larger body
looks to the coptic pope as its head or someone to settle disputes, though
they give him primacy of honour.

(*) Now _here_ is a label that makes no sense at all. It's completely
english, in which language 'orthodox' means 'having married priests with
long beards' and 'oriental' is somehow supposed to be usable in opposition
to 'eastern'.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

> On Mar 21, 1:34�am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Mar 21, 4:13�pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> The point, of course, was to answer your question as to where in your
>> country spaghetti Bolognese is served and eaten (by that name). And
>> the answer turns out to be "not far from where you live".
>>
>> But I'm intrigued. Let me supply you with this "suppressed" [!!]
>> information, and see what further clouds of irrelevance you manage to
>> summon up.
>>
>> Respectively: Blue Sky, Sag Harbor NY; Butcher's Fancy, Yonkers NY;
>> Settimo Cielo, Trenton NJ.
>
> You have a strange idea of "near," especially for one in such a small
> country.
>
> But I daresay even in Canada those distances would not count as "near."

Well, actually, he said "not far from", not "near", which is different
to my ear. But in any case, I thought you said earlier that you were
a couple of miles from Union City. That's less than 100 miles (as the
crow flies) from Sag Harbor, about 50 or so from Trenton, and about 12
from Yonkers. Even driving, it's only about 20 miles to Yonkers.

Given that you asked about anywhere "in the US", I'd say those
certainly count as "not far from where you live". Even the furthest
is less than 4% of the distance between you and me.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If the human brain were so simple
SF Bay Area (1982-) |That we could understand it,
Chicago (1964-1982) |We would be so simple
|That we couldn't.
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:

> It's odd, really, that they made such a fuss about 'non-stick' pans
> when they first came out, when they didn't really work, or, if they
> did, only did so for a month or so.

Is it that the pans have changed or that people have finally learned
how to clean them without destroying them?

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |This gubblick contains many
SF Bay Area (1982-) |nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but
Chicago (1964-1982) |the overall pluggandisp can be
|glorked from context.
evan.kir...@gmail.com |
| David Moser
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 21, 6:55 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> writes:
> > It's odd, really, that they made such a fuss about 'non-stick' pans
> > when they first came out, when they didn't really work, or, if they
> > did, only did so for a month or so.
>
> Is it that the pans have changed or that people have finally learned
> how to clean them without destroying them?
>

The process of making the pans has changed substantially. There used
to be a thin, and delicate, layer of plastic-like non-stick material.
Now the pan has a hard surface and no evidently separate layer. At
least the pans that I've been buying the past few years.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:33:30 +0000, Ant�nio Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>
wrote:

>Yusuf B Gursey wrote (21-03-2013 14:55):

>> On Mar 21, 8:16 am, Ant�nio Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>> Steve Hayes wrote (21-03-2013 09:33):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:35:13 +0000, Ant�nio Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt>

It makes a lot more sense than Melkite, and is clearly understood in English,
which is what aue and aeu are concerned with.

And in English "orthodox" does not mean "having married priests with long
beards" any more than "glory" means "a nice knockdwn argument".

I think in AmE "orthodox" means "Jews who wear homburg hats".


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 11:57:44 +0000, Ant�nio Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>
wrote:

>Steve Hayes wrote (21-03-2013 09:32):
>> Melkites/Melchites is a term applied to several different groups, and it
>> is therefore best avoided.
>
>It doesn't work like that. 'Melkite' means the hierarchy officially
>recognised by the [Eastern] Roman Empire (and nowadays, any hierarchy
>claiming succession to one such).

Tell that to the Georgians.

> It's not an informal term. If a church is
>melkite, it is melkite.

I wouldn't know about informal, but it *is* a pejorative term.

> Compare 'Autochtonous is a term applied to several
>different groups, and it is therefore best avoided'.

Quite possibly, but I'd have to look it up in a dictionary since I have no
idea what kind of groups it might be applied to.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:24:42 +0000, Ant�nio Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>
wrote:

Well let's just call the former "Cavaliers" and the latter "Roundheads" shall
we, just to be formal.

>Do you know what 'disingenuous' means?

Yes. Do you know what "pejorative" means?

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 04:34:43 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Mar 21, 5:39�am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 11:38:00 +0000, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On 20/03/2013 03:35, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >> On Mar 19, 8:32 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> >>> On 19/03/13 10:52 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>> On Mar 19, 8:24 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> On 19/03/2013 03:21, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>> On Mar 18, 9:53 pm, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 18/03/2013 15:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 18, 10:11 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> On 18/03/2013 13:40, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 18, 9:05 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 18/03/2013 11:41, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 18, 6:34 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/03/2013 03:12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 6:09 pm, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2013 21:31, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 3:46 pm, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2013 17:57, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 11:38 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2013 12:46, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 8:16 am, Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:13:42 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 7:14 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/13 11:13 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 15, 9:24 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2013 5:50 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 15, 2:27 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx> wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes it is helpful to snip so that one doesn't need to scroll down
>> through several screenfuls of this kind of stuff in order to discover whether
>> the Pope is Catholic or not because he doesn't eat spaghetti Bolognaise.
>
>Once again, if you were using Google Groups, you wouldn't have to do
>an inch of scrolling to reach the first contribution from the poster
>you were reading.

I used to feel sorry for those who were forced to access Usenet through Google
groups. Now I'm beginning to think that those who automatically killfile them
have a very good point.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

I responded to this post but Google is acting up.

test

[Yusuf B Gursey]

but then there are the Nestorians, with a completelydifferent
Christology, who historically extended as far as China.

> looks to the coptic pope as its head or someone to settle disputes, though
> they give him primacy of honour.
>

I didn't say anything to contradict this.

[R H Draney]

Peter T. Daniels filted:
>
>On Mar 21, 5:39=A0am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 11:38:00 +0000, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.co=

>m>
>> wrote:
>> >On 20/03/2013 03:35, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >> On Mar 19, 8:32 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> >>> On 19/03/13 10:52 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>> On Mar 19, 8:24 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> On 19/03/2013 03:21, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Mar 18, 9:53 pm, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 18/03/2013 15:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 18, 10:11 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wro=

>te:
>> >>>>>>>>> On 18/03/2013 13:40, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 18, 9:05 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wr=

>ote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 18/03/2013 11:41, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 18, 6:34 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> =

>wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/03/2013 03:12, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 6:09 pm, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.com=

>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2013 21:31, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 3:46 pm, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworld.c=

>om> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2013 17:57, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 11:38 am, John Briggs <john.brig...@ntlworl=

>d.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2013 12:46, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 8:16 am, Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.a=

>t> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:13:42 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T=
>. Daniels"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 7:14 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@club=

>telco.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/13 11:13 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 15, 9:24 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edux=

>x> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/15/2013 5:50 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 15, 2:27 pm, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.ed=

>uxx> wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes it is helpful to snip so that one doesn't need to scroll down

>> through several screenfuls of this kind of stuff in order to discover whe=

>ther
>> the Pope is Catholic or not because he doesn't eat spaghetti Bolognaise.
>
>Once again, if you were using Google Groups, you wouldn't have to do
>an inch of scrolling to reach the first contribution from the poster
>you were reading.

OOn the contrary, if I were using Google Groups, I wouldn't be able to read at
all, because I would obviously have to have suffered some kind of massive head
injury....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Tak To]

Over the years, I see a more or less linear relationship
between price and durability of the cooking surface. In
other words, you get what you pay for. I haven't tried
the very high end ones since I don't want to pay that
much up front. They might be a better buy in the long
run -- or not.

I buy mid-range products when they are on sale in
department stores. Replace them when they are worn out.

[António Marques]

Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:33:30 +0000, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>

> wrote:
>
>> Yusuf B Gursey wrote (21-03-2013 14:55):

>>> On Mar 21, 8:16 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>> Steve Hayes wrote (21-03-2013 09:33):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:35:13 +0000, António Marques

No, it doesn't. (Nor is it an alternative; there is no melkite 'Oriental
Orthodox' entity.)

> and is clearly understood in English,

No, it isn't.

> which is what aue and aeu are concerned with.

That is, however, of no import; english has to make do with what labels
exist, regardless of their suitability.

> And in English "orthodox" does not mean "having married priests with long
> beards"

What does it mean, then?
('Orthodox' came into existence to describe the body of believers who
adhered to the historically consensual views. The 'Oriental Orthodox' are in
fact the opposite of that: they many believe to be in the right, but they
certainly cannot claim to have sided with the consensus. They were always a
minority, except regionally - whereas the Rome / Constantinople schism, by
comparison, was hardly doctrinal, and both parties could lay claim to half
of the then Church and the whole of the Fathers.)

>>> Melkites/Melchites is a term applied to several different groups,
>>> and it is therefore best avoided.
>>
>> It doesn't work like that. 'Melkite' means the hierarchy officially
>> recognised by the [Eastern] Roman Empire (and nowadays, any hierarchy
>> claiming succession to one such).
>
> Tell that to the Georgians.

Bring a georgian to us. (I won't attempt a guess as to what specificites of
the georgian church(es) you think are relevant here.)

>> It's not an informal term. If a church is melkite, it is melkite.
>
> I wouldn't know about informal, but it *is* a pejorative term.

No, it isn't, nor was that your previous concern.

>> Compare 'Autochtonous is a term applied to several different groups,
>> and it is therefore best avoided'.
>
> Quite possibly, but I'd have to look it up in a dictionary since I have
> no idea what kind of groups it might be applied to.

I'm sure the internets can be of assistance.

>>> But using the term "Melkite" in this context today is disingenuous
>>> and misleading.
>>
>> No, it is not. In Egypt there is a melkite hierarchy and a coptic
>> hierarchy which both trace their origins to St Mark (and there is a
>> coptic catholic hierarchy which split off from the latter). No one is
>> confused by that and no one thinks 'melkite' has anything to do with
>> Antioch especially.
>
> Well let's just call the former "Cavaliers" and the latter "Roundheads"
> shall we, just to be formal.

In what way would that be formal?

>> Do you know what 'disingenuous' means?
>
> Yes.

In what way do you then think it applies to Yusuf's innocent remark?

> Do you know what "pejorative" means?

It's from peior 'worse', -at- past participle of the 1st conjugation and
-iv- 'turning something into' (in this context), and true to its etymology
it means a referent which reflects negaitively on its object. Do you need
help with anything else?

[António Marques]

Indeed (though these days everyone from the non-Chalcedonian churches is
keen to show they have never been in disagreement with Chalcedon after all).
NB the nestorian churches won't necessarily defend everything Nestorius
said. And there is at least St. Isaac of Nineveh, which belonged to the
'nestorians' centuries post-split and yet is considered a saint by the
Chalcedonians. Things are never as clear cut as we like to decree them from
centuries later.

However, this goes astray from my point: that your original wording
suggested that 'pope' was a comparable office regardless of the church in
question. It isn't. The title is the same, but the offices are not, though
they have similarities. And since the offices are not the same, one cannot
speak of what 'the pope' is here vs there.

>> looks to the coptic pope as its head or someone to settle disputes, though
>> they give him primacy of honour.
>
> I didn't say anything to contradict this.

I was replying to another person.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Mar 22, 12:29 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Mar 21, 1:34 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > On Mar 21, 4:13 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 20, 4:44 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 21, 9:12 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 20, 12:21 pm, Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >>> "Meat-based sauce" suggests what we call "gravy,"
> > > > > > >> It may suggest that to you, but it wouldn't suggest it to anybody who'd
> > > > > > >> had either spaghetti bolognese or the British food of the same name.
> > > > > > >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/spaghetti_bolognese
> > > > > > > My god -- nothing in those 7 recipes is anything like anything that
> > > > > > > would be put on spaghetti in the US or, AFAICT, Italy. Bologna should
> > > > > > > sue for the profanation of its name.
> > > > > > > Almost every one of them calls for some additional protein --
> > > > > > > pancetta, bacon, or chicken liver -- and they all include very
> > > > > > > little tomato; it does indeed seem to be a "beef sauce"!
>
> > > > > > I had spaghetti bolognese made by an excellent cook from Bologna
> > > > > > last year.  It had much less tomato in it than the usual British
> > > > > > version (hence my phrasing above).
>
> > > > > So my recommendation that Bologna take legal action stands, albeit for
> > > > > different reasons.
>
> > > > > > In fact everybody I've met
> > > > > > with who knows Italian food first-hand is repelled by the amount
> > > > > > of tomato in the typical British "spag bol" (which I think is more
> > > > > > or less the same as what is generally consumed under that name in
> > > > > > the US) - the Italian versions are a lot drier.
>
> > > > > Where "in the US" is anything "generally consumed under that name"?
>
> > > > From NYTimes reviews of eating places in the greater New York area:
>
> > > > Among the cod Andalusia, tuna Provençal, paella Valenciana and roast
> > > > chicken Saloniki on the menu, there’s a spaghetti Bolognese that could
> > > > hold its own anywhere.  (09/08/2009)
>
> > > > The selection of three entrees changes daily...On one visit the
> > > > choices were a rustic meat loaf, chicken Marsala, or spaghetti
> > > > Bolognese.  (15/03/2009)
>
> > > > Of the dozen pastas available, spaghetti Bolognese was over-sauced but
> > > > well made,.... (14/10/2007)
>
> > > > What could they be referring to?
>
> > > No idea, since you chose to suppress the names of the "eating places"
> > > concerned.
>
> > So, as far as you can tell, they could be referring to Peach Melba?

>
> > The point, of course, was to answer your question as to where in your
> > country spaghetti Bolognese is served and eaten (by that name). And
> > the answer turns out to be "not far from where you live".
>
> > But I'm intrigued. Let me supply you with this "suppressed" [!!]
> > information, and see what further clouds of irrelevance you manage to
> > summon up.
>
> > Respectively: Blue Sky, Sag Harbor NY; Butcher's Fancy, Yonkers NY;
> > Settimo Cielo, Trenton NJ.
>
> You have a strange idea of "near," especially for one in such a small
> country.

Actually what I said was "not far". I'm not sure what effect you
imagine the size of the speaker's country should have on the use of
such expressions.

> But I daresay even in Canada those distances would not count as "near."

They would certainly count as "not far", particularly when the context
(established by your question) was the entire country. Perhaps you
need to look at a map from time to time to correct Steinbergian
tendencies in your world view.

But now that we know which particular axis of irrelevance you have
chosen to pursue, let me leave you with a few more sightings, these
ones a little closer to the core of the metropolitan area:

Mr.Garvin apparently came into De Marco’s [Pizzeria, West Houston St.]
several times a week, and would go through the same routine: He would
pore over the menu slowly, but then order the same thing, spaghetti
bolognese. (17/03/2007)

Eric Ripert, the chef at Le Bernardin, Zagat’s highest-rated
restaurant in New York [on what he feeds his 3-year-old son]: “I do
spaghetti Bolognese and he loves that.”
(28/01/2007)

This new spot calls itself a gastro pub and offers tapas and family-
style plates and comfort food like a one-pound cheeseburger, spaghetti
bolognese and roasted chicken. [Kitchenbar, 687 Sixth Avenue (20th
Street), South Slope, Brooklyn] (08/03/2006)

Sorry, I didn't happen to find anything within walking distance of
your place.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

I was just pointing to the fact that some Middle Eastern sources were
careful to refer to "the Catholic Pope" and making a pun in the
proccess

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le jeudi 21 mars 2013 20:38:34 UTC+1, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :

>
>
> I was just pointing to the fact that some Middle Eastern

***

Near-Eastern !?

A.
***

sources were
>
> careful to refer to "the Catholic Pope" and making a pun in the
>

> process
>

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 21, 5:08 pm, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Le jeudi 21 mars 2013 20:38:34 UTC+1, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
>
>
> > I was just pointing to the fact that some Middle Eastern
>
> ***
>
> Near-Eastern !?

"Middle East" generally refers to Southwest Asia in modern times,
"Near East" to Southwest Asia in ancient times.

There was apparently an attempt in the later 19th century to take
"Middle East" to mean roughly Iran through India, or maybe Afghanistan
through India, and "Near East" the part of southern Asia that was
nearer to Europe, but it didn't gain currency.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 21, 12:22 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 21, 1:34 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >> On Mar 21, 4:13 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> The point, of course, was to answer your question as to where in your
> >> country spaghetti Bolognese is served and eaten (by that name). And
> >> the answer turns out to be "not far from where you live".
>
> >> But I'm intrigued. Let me supply you with this "suppressed" [!!]
> >> information, and see what further clouds of irrelevance you manage to
> >> summon up.
>
> >> Respectively: Blue Sky, Sag Harbor NY; Butcher's Fancy, Yonkers NY;
> >> Settimo Cielo, Trenton NJ.
>
> > You have a strange idea of "near," especially for one in such a small
> > country.
>
> > But I daresay even in Canada those distances would not count as "near."
>
> Well, actually, he said "not far from", not "near", which is different
> to my ear.  But in any case, I thought you said earlier that you were
> a couple of miles from Union City.  That's less than 100 miles (as the
> crow flies) from Sag Harbor, about 50 or so from Trenton, and about 12
> from Yonkers.  Even driving, it's only about 20 miles to Yonkers.
>
> Given that you asked about anywhere "in the US", I'd say those
> certainly count as "not far from where you live".  Even the furthest
> is less than 4% of the distance between you and me.

Yeah, you grow up a Midwesterner and become a Westerner and you get
distorted worldviews.

Maybe those places are "nearby" in Chicago terms.

And anyway, flying crows do not provide the transportation to Sag
Harbor, Yonkers, or even Trenton.

Yonkers is a very big place -- it seems to seesaw with Buffalo for
second city in NYS -- and the few places that might house trendy
restaurants are not near the NYC end of the city.

[Peter T. Daniels]

You know where my place is?

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Close enough to know that none of the places I mentioned is within
walking distance.

But just to add some additional linguistic enlightenment to this
otherwise pointless excursus on where things are, I went back and
continued my exploration of "spaghetti bolognese" on ProQuest, looking
at the earlier stages.
The first appearances are surprising. Someone named "Chef Wyman" was
so enthusiastic about it that he published his recipe no fewer than
five times (1925-30) in the women's pages of the LA Times.
After that, there's a long gap, but regular occurrences begin about
1960. By the 70s we see signs that it was commonplace, e.g. "Dining
Out in New Jersey" (NYT 14/09/75), in which the writer observes of the
Cassese Restaurant (556 Valley St, Orange) that "The pasta list goes
beyond white clam sauce and spaghetti Bolognese to such things as
spaghetti carbonara...and a fascinating filetto di pomodoro." In other
words, spag.Bol. is a base-line standard dish that you would expect to
find on the menu of any place that serves pasta.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

the English language state university in Ankara is named Middle East
Technical University. later, in the Turkish sector of Cyprus a private
Near East Univeristy was formed. it's emblem is imitation of that if
METU

[Yusuf B Gursey]

On Mar 21, 5:08 pm, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> Le jeudi 21 mars 2013 20:38:34 UTC+1, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
>
>
> > I was just pointing to the fact that some Middle Eastern
>
> ***
>
> Near-Eastern !?
>

Middle Eastern. Aljazeera wasn't around in ancient times.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Petey T. Daniels wrote:

>
> "benl...@ihug.co.nz" wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, I didn't happen to find anything within
>> walking distance of your place.
>
> You know where my place is?
>

254 Palisade Ave
Jersey City, NJ 07307

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/03/13 11:18 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Mar 20, 9:00 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>> On 20/03/13 11:32 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Mar 19, 8:20 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
>>>> On 19/03/13 11:36 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:03:34 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>>>> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mar 19, 9:00 am, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:24:35 +0000, John Briggs

>>>>>>> <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19/03/2013 03:21, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>

>>>>>>>>> What does the Italian word "rag " mean in England?
>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't used - except in technical discussions such as this, of course.
>>>>>>>> Hence the imprecise use of "sauce".
>>
>>>>>>> Rag is a brand name of sauce-in-a-jar that originated in the US and
>>>>>>> crossed the Atlantic to the UK in 1971.
>>
>>>>>>> The jars are on the shelves of many supermarkets and convenience stores
>>>>>>> in the UK. So the word "Rag " is familiar. How many people know its
>>>>>>> meaning is another matter.
>>
>>>>>>> http://www.ragu.co.uk/products
>>
>>>>>>> It is my guess that the majority of people in the UK who eat "Italian"
>>>>>>> food do so at home rather than in an Italian Restaurant. They will buy
>>>>>>> either a frozen ready-meal to be microwaved or prepared ingredients
>>>>>>> requiring minimal preparation and cooking
>>
>>>>>>> For instance:http://www.ragu.co.uk/products/traditional-chunky
>>
>>>>>>> Traditional Chunky
>>
>>>>>>> Nothing brings out the taste of Italy better than a beautiful
>>>>>>> Bolognese sauce. So to feed your whole family with the best
>>>>>>> spaghetti dish in town, just reach for Rag
>>
>>>>>>> Spaghetti Bolognese
>>
>>>>>>> Loved in the thirties, adored today. Your Bolognese will be even
>>>>>>> better when you rustle up this recipe
>>>>>>> Serves 3-4 Ready in 15 mins
>>
>>>>>>> Method
>>
>>>>>>> Place 500g of minced beef into a saucepan and stir over a medium
>>>>>>> heat for 5 minutes or until lightly browned all over
>>
>>>>>> Wow. The American for that is "brown 1 lb. of lean ground beef." (And
>>>>>> it's done in a frying pan, or skillet, rather than a saucepan; the
>>>>>> thickness of the metal is extremely relevant to the quality of the
>>>>>> result.)
>>
>>>>> I use a frying pan for browning the meat. I then transfer the browned
>>>>> meat to a saucepan and add the contents of the jar and continue cooking
>>>>> the mixture.
>>
>>>> I do any cooking of that sort in one of my electric woks.
>>>> A saucepan is too likely to cause the meat to boil; a frying pan is too
>>>> shallow and I might spill some when I add the sauce - I am most
>>>> assuredly not going to use two vessels for cooking in when I have to do
>>>> my own washing up.
>>
>>> Is that the ultimate in laziness??
>>
>>> BTW, how does meat "boil"?
>>
>> Meat contains water. If you put too much meat in at once, instead of
>> frying, it boils. That's why cookery books always tell you to add meat
>> in small batches.
>
> We don't have "cookery books" in this country, but cookbooks tell us
> no such thing.
>
> Nor have I ever encountered "boiling" ground beef or hamburgers, or
> steaks, when I put them in the hot pan all at once.
>

I am amazed.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/03/13 12:55 AM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> It's odd, really, that they made such a fuss about 'non-stick' pans
>> when they first came out, when they didn't really work, or, if they
>> did, only did so for a month or so.
>
> Is it that the pans have changed or that people have finally learned
> how to clean them without destroying them?
>

I believe they really have changed. They used to be Teflon. I'm not sure
what the most commonly used material is nowadays, but my pans are titanium.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/03/13 8:53 AM, DKleinecke wrote:
>
> A dish that I have personally evolved now contains pasta (I use whole-
> wheat penne) and a something made of chopped spinach, olive oil,
> crushed cashews and Parmesan cheese seasoned by a little salt, garlic
> etc. and a lot of pepper. My question is what should I call the
> something? Once upon a time it was pesto - but it evolved.

I see many jars on supermarket shelves boldly proclaiming themselves as
pesto containing neither basil, pine nuts nor even parmesan.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/03/13 11:19 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Mar 20, 9:26 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:

>> On 21/03/13 1:15 AM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>>

>>>> On Mar 20, 11:10� am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>>> What I'd like to know is how a word similar to that one but with an
>>>>> acute accent has come about.
>>
>>>> It's not a "word." It's a trademark. It came about the same way as
>>>> Haagen Dazs (with an umlaut somewhere) and Spinal Tap (with an umlaut
>>>> on the n).
>>
>>> Interesting theory, but I'm not sure I quite follow. Are you saying
>>> the Italian-born Cantisano brothers, in the '30s, came up with "Rag�"
>>> as a nonsense word evocative of a language they didn't speak (as
>>> "H�agen-Dazs" was) or as a parody of other brands (as "Spinal Tap")
>>> was?
>>
>> Reversing the accent could have just been ignorance or unavailability of
>> the correct accent in the font their printer was using. On the other
>> hand, it may have been that, for copyright purposes, they deliberately
>> chose not to use a proper word.
>
> For the third time, no "printer" was involved in creating the logo.

Whatever the creator came up with would have to be printed. It could
well be that it was easier to go with what the printer had available
than follow the creator's instructions. I'm not saying that's what
happened; just that it's possible. I don't suppose they had a billion
dollar budget back then.

>
> Nor can "words" be copyrighted.
>

Look, I don't know the different between copyright, trademark or
whatever other restrictive practices exist, and I don't much care, but I
know that if firms want to claim exclusive right to a particular word,
it can't be a word in common use, which is why some of them go for funny
spellings.
--
Robert Bannister

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Of course. I'm the one with the "distorted" worldview.

> Maybe those places are "nearby" in Chicago terms.

Well they're certainly "not far". "Near" and "nearby" were your
terms. But when asking about whether something happens anywhere "in
the US"? Yeah, I'd say they count as "nearby". If you drew a circle
around yourself and encompassed all three of them, you'd cover less
than 1% of the landmass of the contiguous United States. That's
pretty much in the vicinity.

Do you really consider 20 or even 50 miles to be "far" from you when
considering the country as a whole?

> And anyway, flying crows do not provide the transportation to Sag
> Harbor, Yonkers, or even Trenton.
>
> Yonkers is a very big place -- it seems to seesaw with Buffalo for
> second city in NYS -- and the few places that might house trendy
> restaurants are not near the NYC end of the city.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If the human brain were so simple
SF Bay Area (1982-) |That we could understand it,
Chicago (1964-1982) |We would be so simple
|That we couldn't.
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Reinhold {Rey} Aman <am...@sonic.net> writes:

> Petey T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> "benl...@ihug.co.nz" wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry, I didn't happen to find anything within
>>> walking distance of your place.
>>
>> You know where my place is?
>>
> 254 Palisade Ave
> Jersey City, NJ 07307

I was just going to say "yes".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |To find the end of Middle English,
SF Bay Area (1982-) |you discover the exact date and
Chicago (1964-1982) |time the Great Vowel Shift took
|place (the morning of May 5, 1450,
evan.kir...@gmail.com |at some time between neenuh fiftehn
|and nahyn twenty-fahyv).
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Kevin Wald

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

It would be trademark, not copyright, but in the US, at least, accents
(and case variation) don't appear to be considered part of word
marks, and you can't trademark anything that's already the generic
name for something of the sort you're selling.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The only man I know who behaves
SF Bay Area (1982-) |sensibly is my tailor; he takes my
Chicago (1964-1982) |measurements anew each time he sees
|me. The rest go on with their old
evan.kir...@gmail.com |measurements and expect me to fit
|them.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
| Shaw, _Man and Superman_

[Tak To]

What does "the NYC end of the city" mean?

Rochester, home to Kodak, Xerox and Bausch & Lomb,
is slightly more populous than Yonkers.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman writes:
>> Petey T. Daniels wrote:
>>> "benl...@ihug.co.nz" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I didn't happen to find anything within
>>>> walking distance of your place.
>>>
>>> You know where my place is?
>>>
>> 254 Palisade Ave
>> Jersey City, NJ 07307
>
> I was just going to say "yes".
>

You know how cantankerous old Petey is. A mere "yes" would not have
been sufficient and acceptable to that anal freak.

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 18:52:25 +0000, Ant�nio Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>
wrote:

>Steve Hayes wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 15:33:30 +0000, Ant�nio Marques <anton...@sapo.pt>

>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yusuf B Gursey wrote (21-03-2013 14:55):

>>>> On Mar 21, 8:16 am, Ant�nio Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>>> Steve Hayes wrote (21-03-2013 09:33):
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:35:13 +0000, Ant�nio Marques

Yes it does. And your parenthesis makes no sense.

>
>> and is clearly understood in English,
>
>No, it isn't.

Yes it is.

They are the terms used by most English-speaking scholars in the field, even
if they are difficult to translate into some other languages.

>> which is what aue and aeu are concerned with.
>
>That is, however, of no import; english has to make do with what labels
>exist, regardless of their suitability.

And the labels that currently exist are "Eastern Orthodox" and "Oriental
Orthodox". Using "Melkite" for the former is misleading.

>> And in English "orthodox" does not mean "having married priests with long
>> beards"
>
>What does it mean, then?

Having the right opinion, doctrine, or way of worshipping.

>('Orthodox' came into existence to describe the body of believers who
>adhered to the historically consensual views. The 'Oriental Orthodox' are in
>fact the opposite of that: they many believe to be in the right, but they
>certainly cannot claim to have sided with the consensus. They were always a
>minority, except regionally - whereas the Rome / Constantinople schism, by
>comparison, was hardly doctrinal, and both parties could lay claim to half
>of the then Church and the whole of the Fathers.)

Would you describe the Church of Rome as "Melkite" then, since, in the period
in question (5th-7th centuries), it adhered to the consensus?

>>>> Melkites/Melchites is a term applied to several different groups,
>>>> and it is therefore best avoided.
>>>
>>> It doesn't work like that. 'Melkite' means the hierarchy officially
>>> recognised by the [Eastern] Roman Empire (and nowadays, any hierarchy
>>> claiming succession to one such).

According to the Wikipedia article:

The Melkite Greek Catholic Church (Arabic: ????? ????? ???????? ??????????,
Kani-sat ar-Ru-m al-Malakiyyi-n al-Ka-t_u-li-k) is an Eastern Catholic Church
in full communion with the Holy See as part of the worldwide Catholic Church.
The Melkites, Byzantine Rite Catholics of mixed Eastern Mediterranean and
Greek origin, trace their history to the early Christians of Antioch, Turkey,
of the 1st century AD, where Christianity was introduced by St. Peter.[3][4]

The Melkite Church has a high degree of ethnic homogeneity and the church's
origins lie in the Near East,[5] but Melkite Greek Catholics are present
throughout the world due to migration. Outside of the Near East, the Melkite
Church has also grown through inter-marriage with, and the conversion of,
people of various ethnic heritages. At present there is a worldwide membership
of approximately 1.6 million.[1][2] The Melkite Catholic Church's Byzantine
roots and liturgical practices are rooted in those of Eastern Orthodoxy, while
the Church has maintained communion with the Catholic Church in Rome since a
split from the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch in 1729.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melkite_Greek_Catholic_Church

And it is that group that comes to mind when one uses the term "Melkite".

>> Tell that to the Georgians.
>
>Bring a georgian to us. (I won't attempt a guess as to what specificites of
>the georgian church(es) you think are relevant here.)

The Wikipedia article gives an adequate summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Orthodox_Church

"The Georgian Apostolic Autocephalous Orthodox Church (Georgian: ???????????
?????????? ???????????? ??????????????? ???????, sak�art�velos samots�ik�ulo
avt�okep�aluri mart�lmadidebeli eklesia) is an autocephalous Eastern Orthodox
Church. It is Georgia's dominant religious institution, and a majority of
Georgian people affirm their membership in the Church. It asserts apostolic
foundation, and its historical roots can be traced to the conversion of the
Kingdom of Iberia to Christianity in the 4th century AD. Christianity, as
embodied by the Church, was the state religion of Georgia until 1921, when a
constitutional change separated church and state.[3]

The Georgian Orthodox Church is in full communion with the other churches of
Eastern Orthodoxy. Its autocephaly is recognized by other Orthodox bodies,
including the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople since 1990. As in
similar autocephalous Orthodox churches, the Church's highest governing body
is the Holy Synod of bishops. It is headed by the Catholicos-Patriarch of All
Georgia. The current Patriarch is Ilia II, who was elected in 1977."

The Kingdom of Georgia was never, to my knowledge, under the rule of the Roman
Empire, and thus the approval of the Roman emperors to which the term
"Melkite" refers would not apply to them.

>>> It's not an informal term. If a church is melkite, it is melkite.
>>
>> I wouldn't know about informal, but it *is* a pejorative term.
>
>No, it isn't, nor was that your previous concern.
>
>>> Compare 'Autochtonous is a term applied to several different groups,
>>> and it is therefore best avoided'.
>>
>> Quite possibly, but I'd have to look it up in a dictionary since I have
>> no idea what kind of groups it might be applied to.
>
>I'm sure the internets can be of assistance.

I doubt that they would be of much assistance in reading your mind to know
what comparison you are making here.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter T. Daniels]

What does any of this new obsession of yours have to do with the
nonexistence of "spag bol" in the US, let alone anywhere "near" pr
"not far from" me?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 21, 10:05 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Reinhold {Rey} Aman <a...@sonic.net> writes:
>
> > Petey T. Daniels wrote:
>

> >> "benli...@ihug.co.nz" wrote:
>
> >>> Sorry, I didn't happen to find anything within
> >>> walking distance of your place.
>
> >> You know where my place is?
>
> >
> >
>

> I was just going to say "yes".

Interesting. There's a device for reporting the malicious divulgence
of personal information in Google Groups. Maybe Rindhole will find
himself incarcerated again.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 21, 10:05 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Reinhold {Rey} Aman <a...@sonic.net> writes:
>
> > Petey T. Daniels wrote:
>

> >> "benli...@ihug.co.nz" wrote:
>
> >>> Sorry, I didn't happen to find anything within
> >>> walking distance of your place.
>
> >> You know where my place is?
>
> >
> >
>

> I was just going to say "yes".

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 21, 8:58 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> On 21/03/13 11:19 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Mar 20, 9:26 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> >> On 21/03/13 1:15 AM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> >>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>

> >>>> On Mar 20, 11:10 am, António Marques <antonio...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> >>>>> What I'd like to know is how a word similar to that one but with an
> >>>>> acute accent has come about.
>
> >>>> It's not a "word." It's a trademark. It came about the same way as
> >>>> Haagen Dazs (with an umlaut somewhere) and Spinal Tap (with an umlaut
> >>>> on the n).
>
> >>> Interesting theory, but I'm not sure I quite follow.  Are you saying

> >>> the Italian-born Cantisano brothers, in the '30s, came up with "Ragú"

> >>> as a nonsense word evocative of a language they didn't speak (as

> >>> "Häagen-Dazs" was) or as a parody of other brands (as "Spinal Tap")

> >>> was?
>
> >> Reversing the accent could have just been ignorance or unavailability of
> >> the correct accent in the font their printer was using. On the other
> >> hand, it may have been that, for copyright purposes, they deliberately
> >> chose not to use a proper word.
>
> > For the third time, no "printer" was involved in creating the logo.
>
> Whatever the creator came up with would have to be printed. It could
> well be that it was easier to go with what the printer had available
> than follow the creator's instructions. I'm not saying that's what
> happened; just that it's possible. I don't suppose they had a billion
> dollar budget back then.

??? If the artwork was created, then it was "available"! Lithography
was discovered/invented between ca. 1799 and 1802, and then came
photography, and rotogravure, ...

[Peter T. Daniels]

Look at a map.

> Rochester, home to Kodak, Xerox and Bausch & Lomb,
> is slightly more populous than Yonkers.

As of when?

Kodak? That's not much of a claim any more.

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 22, 2:43 am, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> On 22/03/13 12:55 AM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>

> > Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> It's odd, really, that they made such a fuss about 'non-stick' pans
> >> when they first came out, when they didn't really work, or, if they
> >> did, only did so for a month or so.
>
> > Is it that the pans have changed or that people have finally learned
> > how to clean them without destroying them?
>
> I believe they really have changed. They used to be Teflon. I'm not sure
> what the most commonly used material is nowadays, but my pans are titanium.
>

I think you're right. Teflon came off very easily, even if you didn't
have some idiot take wire-wool to it. I don't really want to check
that my omelette pan survives wire-wool, but I've had it working very
well indeed for well over six months. The last one lasted a couple of
years - they're quite cheap, very cheap compared to a pukka cast-iron
frying pan, so I'm happy to get a new one every two or three years.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Let me refresh your memory of the thread:

PTD:
I have never actually seen "spaghetti bolognese," so I don't know
_what_ sort of concoction you put on it. (Mar 18)

For the gazillionth time: what we are trying to get is an explanation
of what "spaghetti bolognese" _is_. (Mar 21)

Your repeatedly professed ignorance of the very nature of spaghetti
bolognese was the major subject of the thread. Various people
attempted to describe it to you, apparently to no avail. You
apparently considered it some kind of uniquely British abomination.
Then Jack Campin made a comparison of UK and US versions of the dish,
using the harmless abbreviation "spag bol". Your question in reply
was:

Where "in the US" is anything "generally consumed under that name"?

In all innocence, I assumed that this was a continuation of the main
subject of the thread -- ie. that you were asking where in the US
people ate spaghetti bolognese. I replied with three citations of
people eating same within the greater NY area in fairly recent times.
Did you correct my misconception, saying "No, that's not what I'm
talking about now -- I'm going to obsess about the abbreviation 'spag
bol', which is not used in the US."? No, you did not. You started some
ridiculous quibbulation about "near" and "far". I gave you more
examples. You continued to fuss about near and far. I gave more
examples. _Now_, unable to wave away evidence that people in the USA,
even in New York, cook and eat spaghetti bolognese all the time,
you've decided that it was 'spag bol' you're going to deny?

This would seem to be one reading of your ambiguous paragraph above.
But how can I be sure? You could, of course, clarify your own
position:

Are you merely denying the existence of the abbreviation 'spag bol' in
the US?

Or are you denying that Americans eat "spaghetti bolognese", and know
it by that name?

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Petey T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman writes:
>>> Petey T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> "benli...@ihug.co.nz" wrote:
>>
>>>>> Sorry, I didn't happen to find anything within
>>>>> walking distance of your place.
>>
>>>> You know where my place is?
>

I kindly provided the correct answer (snipped by paranoid Petey), which
is easily found on the WWW:

>>> *254 Palisade Ave* <--------------
>>> *Jersey City, NJ 07307* <--------------

>>
>> I was just going to say "yes".
>
> Interesting. There's a device for reporting the malicious divulgence
> of personal information in Google Groups.
>

(1) I didn't post using shitty Google Groups.
(2) Go ahead and report me to fuckin' Google Groups.
(3) Shove that "device" up your well-used asshole.
(4) There's nothing "malicious" about posting the correct answer
to your idiotic question for Ross.

>
> Maybe Rindhole will find himself incarcerated again.
>

Here we go again! Gloating faggot Petey just can't get over my
involuntary Federal Vacation. It wasn't bad though -- I was housed far
away from the repulsive imprisoned faggots who had their own cells where
they could infect one another with HIV and syphilis. One day you'll end
up there, Petey.

--
~~~ Reinhold {"Rindhole"} Aman ~~~

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

Are you questioning the "more populous" or the "slightly"? If the
former, always, as far as I can tell. Yonkers was incorporated in
1872, and the census numbers are

Rochester Yonkers
--------- -------
2010 210,565 195,976
2000 219,773 196,086
1990 231,686 188,082
1980 241,741 193,351
1970 296,233 204,297
1960 318,611 190,634
1950 332,488 152,798
1940 324,975 142,598
1930 328,132 134,646
1920 295,750 100,176
1910 218,149 79,803
1900 162,608 47,931
1890 133,896 32,033
1880 89,366 < 19,743 (not in top 100)

It's only recently that Yonkers has gotten anywhere close, as
Rochester's population has dropped.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |As the judge remarked the day that
SF Bay Area (1982-) | he acquitted my Aunt Hortense,
Chicago (1964-1982) |To be smut
|It must be ut-
evan.kir...@gmail.com |Terly without redeeming social
| importance.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Tom Lehrer

[Dr Nick]

Mystic Nick predicts "no reply".

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Teflon still seems to be the leading type of non-stick coating.
According to this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080704112712/http://www.plastechcoatings.com/dupont_teflon_coating.html

Teflon� PTFE fluropolymer resin was first discovered in 1938 by
DuPont chemist Roy Plunkett. Since that time DuPont has developed a
versatile line of industrial coatings that carry the Teflon�
trademark.

So, there is more than one type of Teflon.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 22, 1:06 am, Reinhold {Rey} Aman <a...@sonic.net> wrote:

> > Maybe Rindhole will find himself incarcerated again.
>
> Here we go again!  Gloating faggot Petey just can't get over my
> involuntary Federal Vacation.  It wasn't bad though -- I was housed far
> away from the repulsive imprisoned faggots who had their own cells where
> they could infect one another with HIV and syphilis.  One day you'll end
> up there, Petey.
>
> --
> ~~~ Reinhold {"Rindhole"} Aman ~~~

I bet all those aue'ers are real proud of having such scum among them.

[Tak To]

There is only one type of Teflon (trademark name for
PTFE which is chained up CF4), but more than one type
of Teflon _coating_. Dupont alone alone makes 5
types just for cookware.
http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon/en_US/products/cookware_coatings/index.html

There are probably companies other than Dupont that
makes PTFE coating for cookware as well. Chances are
if you see non-stick cookware without the Teflon
trademark and does not say that it is PTFE-free or
ceramic, it is PTFE by some other company.

There are PTFE coating for other uses; e.g., on
furniture fabric.

Btw, PTFE is just vinyl with the hydrogen atoms
replaced by fluorine atoms. Gore-tex is made from
PTFE.

A new alternative to PTFE coating is ceramic coating.
I have a ceramic coated fry/saute pan as a gift. Can't
say it works better than PTFE. Too early to gauge
durability.

One other thing. The ceramic coating is not black
like Teflon, so if you burn food, there will be visible
carbon residues that cannot be removed easily. I
heard that it is OK to use 00 grade steel wool on
the surface, but haven't tried it. (Don't plan to risk
it.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 22, 2:43 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I guess they lied to us when I was little Maybe Yonkers chauvinists
invaded NYC.

At one time Buffalo was the 9th largest city in the US. (Source: a
book about the Darwin Martin House.)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 20, 3:31 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > On Mar 20, 11:37 am, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
> > wrote:
> >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/healthyspaghettibolo_80401
>
> >>     200g/7oz lean steak mince
> >>     1 400g/14oz tin tomatoes, chopped
> >>     2 tbsp tomato purée
>
> >> I don't know what 2 tbsp tomato purée weigh.
>
> > About 15 g.
>
> Really?  This page
>
>    http://www.indiacurry.com/faqhints/tomatopureepaste.htm
>
> says that tomato purees have specific gravity between 1.045 and 1.7,
> so I'd expect 30 ml to be between 30 g and 50 g.  Even tomato juice,
> according to that page, is 2.5% heavier than water.

Okay, tomatoes might be denser than I thought.

--
Jerry Friedman

[R H Draney]

Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>
>It would be trademark, not copyright, but in the US, at least, accents
>(and case variation) don't appear to be considered part of word
>marks, and you can't trademark anything that's already the generic
>name for something of the sort you're selling.

Unless it's a personal computer or "PC"....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Robert Bannister]

On 23/03/13 3:55 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Mar 20, 3:31 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> On Mar 20, 11:37 am, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/healthyspaghettibolo_80401
>>
>>>> 200g/7oz lean steak mince
>>>> 1 400g/14oz tin tomatoes, chopped

>>>> 2 tbsp tomato pur�e
>>
>>>> I don't know what 2 tbsp tomato pur�e weigh.

>>
>>> About 15 g.
>>
>> Really? This page
>>
>> http://www.indiacurry.com/faqhints/tomatopureepaste.htm
>>
>> says that tomato purees have specific gravity between 1.045 and 1.7,
>> so I'd expect 30 ml to be between 30 g and 50 g. Even tomato juice,
>> according to that page, is 2.5% heavier than water.
>
> Okay, tomatoes might be denser than I thought.

I'm glad I've never had to teach one.

--
Robert Bannister

[DKleinecke]

Speaking as a left coast American, I can assure you that I was not
aware of "spaghetti bolognese" until this discussion began. I didn't
watch Rumple. We have had spaghetti all my life and in my youth that
always (? I can't remember any exceptions) implied a tomato sauce.
Meat, including meatballs was optional.

My 1975 Joy of Cooking lists "Bolognese pasta sauce" as one sauce
suitable for spaghetti. The recipe for Bolognese pasta sauce is quite
similar to those offered here.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 19:29:48 -0700 (PDT), DKleinecke
<dklei...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:3730e3dc-7564-4a5d...@i5g2000pbj.googlegroups.com>
in alt.english.usage,alt.usage.english,sci.lang:

[...]

> Speaking as a left coast American, I can assure you that I
> was not aware of "spaghetti bolognese" until this
> discussion began. I didn't watch Rumple.

I recognized it from the descriptions, though not by name.
And in the other direction I have encountered the name in
distinctly U.S. contexts, though I never bothered to put a
'face' to it.

> We have had spaghetti all my life and in my youth that
> always (? I can't remember any exceptions) implied a
> tomato sauce. Meat, including meatballs was optional.

My mother's (rather uninteresting) spaghetti sauce always
had ground/minced beef in it. I don't know whether it was
something that she knew from her childhood in Aberdeen,
Washington, or whether she acquired it later, but even in
the latter case it would have been a left coast acquisition.

[...]

Brian

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

If you have information that "PC" was ever registered as a trademark
for personal computers, it didn't make its way into the trademark
database. I see

1954 Piston rings (Perfect Circle Corp.)
1968 Jewelry (The Palomar Company)
1982 Vitamins (Nature's Way)
1983 Magazine (Premium Channels Publishing Co.)
1983 Financial services (Fed. Home Loan Mtge Corp.)
1988 Stationery items (Mead)
1988 Electrical equipment (Barry Epstein)
1988 Copying machines (Canon)
1989 Material handling equipment (Transfer Tech. Inc.)
1990 Shoes (Warson Group)
1991 Water Heaters (Bradford-White Corp.)
1992 Steel all thread studs (Pacific Coast Bolt Corp.)
1993 Dental instruments
1993 Printed news matter (Canadian Press Corp.)
1997 Wood products (Plum Creek Timber Company)
1998 Adhesives (Protective Coating Co.)
1999 Drywall accessories (Plastic Components, Inc.)
2000 Carton-mfg dies (Xyantech)

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |He who will not reason, is a bigot;
SF Bay Area (1982-) |he who cannot is a fool; and he who
Chicago (1964-1982) |dares not is a slave.
| Sir William Drummond
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Dr Nick]

In the UK the magazine Personal Computer World was being published ages
before "the PC" came along.

[Tak To]

Ages = 3.5 yr

[CDB]

On 22/03/2013 8:00 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:

> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> "Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/healthyspaghettibolo_80401

>>>>> 200g/7oz lean steak mince
>>>>> 1 400g/14oz tin tomatoes, chopped

>>>>> 2 tbsp tomato purée

>>>>> I don't know what 2 tbsp tomato purée weigh.

>>>> About 15 g.

>>> Really? This page

>>> http://www.indiacurry.com/faqhints/tomatopureepaste.htm

>>> says that tomato purees have specific gravity between 1.045 and 1.7,
>>> so I'd expect 30 ml to be between 30 g and 50 g. Even tomato juice,
>>> according to that page, is 2.5% heavier than water.

>> Okay, tomatoes might be denser than I thought.

> I'm glad I've never had to teach one.

Strange. The classes I took usually included a tomato or two.

[CDB]

In Bronxville in the mid-fifties, a speech-therapist came to my school
(PS #8) to see how well each of us could say "Yonkers is the
fifth-largest city in New York State." I assumed at the time that it
was the truth.

[R H Draney]

Tak To filted:

>
>On 3/23/2013 4:46 AM, Dr Nick wrote:
>>
>> In the UK the magazine Personal Computer World was being published ages
>> before "the PC" came along.
>
>Ages = 3.5 yr

Do you have any idea how long "3.5 yr" is in internet time?...r

[Tak To]

On 3/23/2013 3:56 PM, R H Draney wrote:
> Tak To filted:
>>
>> On 3/23/2013 4:46 AM, Dr Nick wrote:
>>>
>>> In the UK the magazine Personal Computer World was being published ages
>>> before "the PC" came along.
>>
>> Ages = 3.5 yr
>
> Do you have any idea how long "3.5 yr" is in internet time?...r

Don't know. This all happened before there was an
internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

:-)

[Adam Funk]

Fruit or vegetable?


--
You're the last hope for vaudeville.
--- Groucho Marx to Alice Cooper

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 23, 5:05 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2013-03-23, CDB wrote:
> > On 22/03/2013 8:00 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
> >> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> says that tomato purees have specific gravity between 1.045 and 1.7,
> >>>> so I'd expect 30 ml to be between 30 g and 50 g.  Even tomato juice,
> >>>> according to that page, is 2.5% heavier than water.
>
> >>> Okay, tomatoes might be denser than I thought.
>
> >> I'm glad I've never had to teach one.
>
> > Strange.  The classes I took usually included a tomato or two.
>
> Fruit or vegetable?

Even if the tomato in his class _was_ a fruit, that wouldn't stop a
lot of guys from hitting on her -- indeed, some of them take that as
an added challenge.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Bronxville! Weren't _you_ hoity-toity! (I was shocked when I
discovered that Sarah Lawrence is about two blocks from the Cross
County Shopping Center.)

Behind what, Rochester, and -- Syracuse? Utica? Binghamton?

[Robert Bannister]

Perhaps we should consider what the purpose of spaghetti and other pasta
is. Like Yorkshire pudding, its main purpose was to fill you up before
you reached the meat course - meat, being expensive, was going to be a
small ration.

Later, as meat became (at least until recently) within the reach of all,
we realised that Yorkshire pudding, pasta and a few other things that
were intended to be more of an entr�e (non-American sense) before the
main meal, were actually nice to have as a main course or at least as
part thereof. At this point, our Anglo-Saxon 'rosbif' genes turned on -
we like Yorkshire pudding, we like spaghetti, but we want meat with it.

It was a completely natural thing to put meat with spaghetti. We may
have justified it by saying they did the same thing in Bologna, but
really it's no business of the Italians at all. We don't eat Chinese
food as they do in China; why should we be fastidious about Italian
food? Pasta sauce, of course, does not have to have tomato at all. Apart
from the creamy sauces, I have fond memories of Nonna Maria's spaghetti
marina which was basically seafood, garlic, parsley and olive oil - no
tomato, no cream, but yummy, and so far I have never managed to achieve
the same effect.

--
Robert Bannister

[DKleinecke]

On Mar 23, 4:56 pm, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> On 23/03/13 10:46 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 19:29:48 -0700 (PDT), DKleinecke

> > <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote in

In Piers Plowman (1360 CE) the streets cries heard in London include
(spelling updated)
Cooks and [t]heir knaves crieth "Hot pies, hot"
"Good geese and grease; go we dine, go we"
Taverners to [t[hem told the same
"White wine of Osay and wine of Gascoyn
Of the Rhine and of the Rochelle, the roast to defy"
With a little money you could eat well a long tome ago.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 07:56:26 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com>
wrote:

I have eaten spaghetti bolognaise/bolognese at a cafe in a small village
outside Bologna, and it was made of more or less the same ingredients and
served in the same manner as in Italian restaurants in South Africa and
England. I can't speak for the left coast of America.

When I began to eat it, however, the proprietress said I was doing it all
wrong, and showed me how the locals eat it. She mixed up the spaghetti and
mince on the plate, then sprinkled the grated cheese on top of it, and when I
began to eat it like that she nodded her approval and went back to the
kitchen.





--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 23, 10:53 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> I have eaten spaghetti bolognaise/bolognese at a cafe in a small village
> outside Bologna, and it was made of more or less the same ingredients and
> served in the same manner as in Italian restaurants in South Africa and
> England. I can't speak for the left coast of America.
>
> When I began to eat it, however, the proprietress said I was doing it all
> wrong, and showed me how the locals eat it. She mixed up the spaghetti and
> mince on the plate, then sprinkled the grated cheese on top of it, and when I
> began to eat it like that she nodded her approval and went back to the
> kitchen.

Uh -- how else would one eat it?

(And why would it grow a French spelling in Bologna?)

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

I can't suggest anything about the eating, but the spelling -aise is
surely understandable, given the preeminence of things French in the
food world, and the existence of sauces like hollandaise, béarnaise,
mayonnaise... (Steve didn't say they actually spelled it that way on
the menu.) It occurs in ProQuest with about 1/4 the frequency of -ese,
and there are, I'm happy to report, only a handful of occurrences in
American papers.

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 24, 1:56 am, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> On 23/03/13 10:46 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 19:29:48 -0700 (PDT), DKleinecke

> > <dkleine...@gmail.com> wrote in

Not to mention Carbonara, which, if made properly, can be a
magnificent tribute to bacon, as well as nicely garlicky.

If I'm cooking just for myself, I find linguini with garlic cooked in
extra virgin olive oil with black pepper quite sufficient.

[R H Draney]

benl...@ihug.co.nz filted:

>
>On Mar 24, 4:34=A0pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> (And why would it grow a French spelling in Bologna?)
>
>I can't suggest anything about the eating, but the spelling -aise is
>surely understandable, given the preeminence of things French in the

>food world, and the existence of sauces like hollandaise, b=E9arnaise,

>mayonnaise... (Steve didn't say they actually spelled it that way on
>the menu.) It occurs in ProQuest with about 1/4 the frequency of -ese,
>and there are, I'm happy to report, only a handful of occurrences in
>American papers.

And you're not all *that* far from quadrilingual Switzerland....r

[pauljk]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:285d2687-45be-44db...@k4g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

Weird, I expect a vegetable to be he or she, but fruit is
automatically a female? Is that just NY usage or is it general US?

pjk

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:21:05 -0700 (PDT), "benl...@ihug.co.nz"
<benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

>On Mar 24, 4:34�pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Mar 23, 10:53�pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I have eaten spaghetti bolognaise/bolognese at a cafe in a small village
>> > outside Bologna, and it was made of more or less the same ingredients and
>> > served in the same manner as in Italian restaurants in South Africa and
>> > England. I can't speak for the left coast of America.
>>
>> > When I began to eat it, however, the proprietress said I was doing it all
>> > wrong, and showed me how the locals eat it. She mixed up the spaghetti and
>> > mince on the plate, then sprinkled the grated cheese on top of it, and when I
>> > began to eat it like that she nodded her approval and went back to the
>> > kitchen.
>>
>> Uh -- how else would one eat it?
>>
>> (And why would it grow a French spelling in Bologna?)
>
>I can't suggest anything about the eating, but the spelling -aise is
>surely understandable, given the preeminence of things French in the

>food world, and the existence of sauces like hollandaise, b�arnaise,

>mayonnaise... (Steve didn't say they actually spelled it that way on
>the menu.) It occurs in ProQuest with about 1/4 the frequency of -ese,
>and there are, I'm happy to report, only a handful of occurrences in
>American papers.

I cant remember what it was called on the menu in the cafe near Bologna, as it
was many years ago now, but I doubt that it would have had bolog-anything in
the name. Spaghetti con carne or whatever that is in Italian, perhaps.

[Cheryl]

On 23/03/2013 9:26 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:

>
> Perhaps we should consider what the purpose of spaghetti and other pasta
> is. Like Yorkshire pudding, its main purpose was to fill you up before
> you reached the meat course - meat, being expensive, was going to be a
> small ration.
>
> Later, as meat became (at least until recently) within the reach of all,
> we realised that Yorkshire pudding, pasta and a few other things that
> were intended to be more of an entr�e (non-American sense) before the
> main meal, were actually nice to have as a main course or at least as
> part thereof. At this point, our Anglo-Saxon 'rosbif' genes turned on -
> we like Yorkshire pudding, we like spaghetti, but we want meat with it.
>
> It was a completely natural thing to put meat with spaghetti. We may
> have justified it by saying they did the same thing in Bologna, but
> really it's no business of the Italians at all. We don't eat Chinese
> food as they do in China; why should we be fastidious about Italian
> food? Pasta sauce, of course, does not have to have tomato at all. Apart
> from the creamy sauces, I have fond memories of Nonna Maria's spaghetti
> marina which was basically seafood, garlic, parsley and olive oil - no
> tomato, no cream, but yummy, and so far I have never managed to achieve
> the same effect.
>

My mother's spaghetti sauce invariably had meat in it although you can
buy the kind without meat.

When we had more traditional meals, unless they were big holiday meals
like Christmas dinner, there was invariably a plate of sliced bread on
the table, and if we were really hungry, we were urged to help
ourselves. This was no burden since it was my mother's homemade bread,
which we all loved. It wasn't until much later that it occurred to me
that this family tradition probably had its origins much earlier, when
families naturally filled up on bread instead of meat.

--
Cheryl

[pensive hamster]

With the sauce on top, so you can vary the ratio of pasta/sauce as you
go along.

There are various recipes in these links, but all agree that you
should use tagliatelle rather than spaghetti, and that you should cook
the ragu very gently for several hours:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/7017565/Italian-chefs-tell-world-how-to-make-correct-bolognese.html

'In an attempt to restore the integrity of the dish known to millions
of British diners as "spag bol", nearly 450 chefs in Italian
restaurants in 50 countries cooked spaghetti bolognese on Sunday with
authentic ingredients including pancetta, carrots, celery, onions,
tomato paste and a dash of wine.

'They had to conform to a recipe set down in 1982 by the chamber of
commerce in Bologna - the home of bolognese. ...'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2010/nov/25/how-to-make-perfect-bolognese

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-1244297/ANTONIO-CARLUCCIO-The-secret-perfect-Spag-Bol-Dont-let-Brit-cook-it.html

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 24, 12:21 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

> On Mar 24, 4:34 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 23, 10:53 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > > I have eaten spaghetti bolognaise/bolognese at a cafe in a small village
> > > outside Bologna, and it was made of more or less the same ingredients and
> > > served in the same manner as in Italian restaurants in South Africa and
> > > England. I can't speak for the left coast of America.
>
> > > When I began to eat it, however, the proprietress said I was doing it all
> > > wrong, and showed me how the locals eat it. She mixed up the spaghetti and
> > > mince on the plate, then sprinkled the grated cheese on top of it, and when I
> > > began to eat it like that she nodded her approval and went back to the
> > > kitchen.
>
> > Uh -- how else would one eat it?
>
> > (And why would it grow a French spelling in Bologna?)
>
> I can't suggest anything about the eating, but the spelling -aise is
> surely understandable, given the preeminence of things French in the
> food world,

?? You don't know that "Italian" is considered one of the world's
great cuisines quite on its own?

> and the existence of sauces like hollandaise, béarnaise,
> mayonnaise... (Steve didn't say they actually spelled it that way on
> the menu.) It occurs in ProQuest with about 1/4 the frequency of -ese,
> and there are, I'm happy to report, only a handful of occurrences in
> American papers.

I'm delighted that you were so obsessed with demeaning me that you
bothered to research the question.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 24, 6:49 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 21:21:05 -0700 (PDT), "benli...@ihug.co.nz"

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >On Mar 24, 4:34 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Mar 23, 10:53 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> >> > I have eaten spaghetti bolognaise/bolognese at a cafe in a small village
> >> > outside Bologna, and it was made of more or less the same ingredients and
> >> > served in the same manner as in Italian restaurants in South Africa and
> >> > England. I can't speak for the left coast of America.
>
> >> > When I began to eat it, however, the proprietress said I was doing it all
> >> > wrong, and showed me how the locals eat it. She mixed up the spaghetti and
> >> > mince on the plate, then sprinkled the grated cheese on top of it, and when I
> >> > began to eat it like that she nodded her approval and went back to the
> >> > kitchen.
>
> >> Uh -- how else would one eat it?
>
> >> (And why would it grow a French spelling in Bologna?)
>
> >I can't suggest anything about the eating, but the spelling -aise is
> >surely understandable, given the preeminence of things French in the
> >food world, and the existence of sauces like hollandaise, b arnaise,
> >mayonnaise... (Steve didn't say they actually spelled it that way on
> >the menu.) It occurs in ProQuest with about 1/4 the frequency of -ese,
> >and there are, I'm happy to report, only a handful of occurrences in
> >American papers.
>
> I cant remember what it was called on the menu in the cafe near Bologna, as it
> was many years ago now, but I doubt that it would have had bolog-anything in
> the name. Spaghetti con carne or whatever that is in Italian, perhaps.

Then why did you claim it did?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 24, 3:36 am, "pauljk" <paul.kr...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:285d2687-45be-44db...@k4g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

"Tomato" [t@'mejt@] is archaic (WWII and earlier, didn't you have old
movies on TV down there?) slang for attractive woman.

"Fruit" is an archaic insult for (male) homosexual.

Putting the two together connotes 'lesbian'.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le dimanche 24 mars 2013 14:07:07 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

>
> "Tomato" [t@'mejt@] is archaic (WWII and earlier, didn't you have old
>
> movies on TV down there?) slang for attractive woman.
>
>
>
> "Fruit" is an archaic insult for (male) homosexual.
>
>
>
> Putting the two together connotes 'lesbian'.

***

Hm hm
so you're better at fruits and tomatoes than Hurrian and Cuneiform.

a.

[James Silverton]

On 3/24/2013 9:01 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Mar 24, 12:21 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 4:34 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 23, 10:53 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> I have eaten spaghetti bolognaise/bolognese at a cafe in a small village
>>>> outside Bologna, and it was made of more or less the same ingredients and
>>>> served in the same manner as in Italian restaurants in South Africa and
>>>> England. I can't speak for the left coast of America.
>>
>>>> When I began to eat it, however, the proprietress said I was doing it all
>>>> wrong, and showed me how the locals eat it. She mixed up the spaghetti and
>>>> mince on the plate, then sprinkled the grated cheese on top of it, and when I
>>>> began to eat it like that she nodded her approval and went back to the
>>>> kitchen.
>>
>>> Uh -- how else would one eat it?
>>
>>> (And why would it grow a French spelling in Bologna?)
>>
>> I can't suggest anything about the eating, but the spelling -aise is
>> surely understandable, given the preeminence of things French in the
>> food world,
>
> ?? You don't know that "Italian" is considered one of the world's
> great cuisines quite on its own?
>

>> and the existence of sauces like hollandaise, b�arnaise,

>> mayonnaise... (Steve didn't say they actually spelled it that way on
>> the menu.) It occurs in ProQuest with about 1/4 the frequency of -ese,
>> and there are, I'm happy to report, only a handful of occurrences in
>> American papers.
>
> I'm delighted that you were so obsessed with demeaning me that you
> bothered to research the question.
>

It was the Italian chef who came to France with Catharine of Medici who
started "haute cuisine" in France.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le dimanche 24 mars 2013 15:19:27 UTC+1, James Silverton a écrit :



>
> It was the Italian chef

***

Any idea about his name?

A.
***


who came to France
***

Any idea when?

A.
***

with Catharine of Medici who
>
> started "haute cuisine" in France.
>

***

Catherine.

To be frank, all that sounds like PTD-esque BullShit.

A.

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 24, 2:07 pm, pensive hamster <pensive_hams...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>
> 'In an attempt to restore the integrity of the dish known to millions
> of British diners as "spag bol", nearly 450 chefs in Italian
> restaurants in 50 countries cooked spaghetti bolognese on Sunday with
> authentic ingredients including pancetta, carrots, celery, onions,
> tomato paste and a dash of wine.
>

Very nice. I made one for myself today - I'm afraid that I used
venison, but most of the rest was as stated. I also used linguine.

[CDB]

On 23/03/2013 6:19 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> CDB <bellemar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Toronto now fourth-largest city in North America take that Chicago]

>> In Bronxville in the mid-fifties [...] speech-therapist [...]my school
[...]

> Bronxville! Weren't _you_ hoity-toity! (I was shocked when I
> discovered that Sarah Lawrence is about two blocks from the Cross
> County Shopping Center.)

We were tenants in a suburban palace. My father was a diplomat; it was
his job to impress foreigners.

> Behind what, Rochester, and -- Syracuse? Utica? Binghamton?

I didn't ask. She thought my accent was very nice.

[CDB]

On 23/03/2013 5:05 PM, Adam Funk wrote:

> CDB wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> says that tomato purees have specific gravity between 1.045 and 1.7,
>>>>> so I'd expect 30 ml to be between 30 g and 50 g. Even tomato juice,
>>>>> according to that page, is 2.5% heavier than water.

>>>> Okay, tomatoes might be denser than I thought.

>>> I'm glad I've never had to teach one.

>> Strange. The classes I took usually included a tomato or two.

> Fruit or vegetable?

Harder to tell when they're not quite ripe.

I recall a series of novels about a crime-solving C of E cleric who
addressed her daughter as "Fruit". Is that at all common (like NAmE
"punkin'"), or was she being biblical?

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Syracuse, from the '30s through the '60s. In the '20s, Yonkers was
sixth, behind Albany, and in the '70s, it had passed Syracuse into
fourth. It passed Utica (and Troy) in 1910, and it passed Binghamton
in 1900.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Never attempt to teach a pig to
SF Bay Area (1982-) |sing; it wastes your time and
Chicago (1964-1982) |annoys the pig.
| Robert Heinlein
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I'm not sure. There used to be a slang phrase "me old fruit" (me = my)
used as a term of endearment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_%28slang%29#Origin_and_historical_usage

In A Dictionary of Epithets and Terms of Address author Leslie
Dunkling traces the friendly use of the phrase "old fruit" (and
rarely "old tin of fruit") to the 1920s in Britain possibly deriving
from the phrase "fruit of the womb".

The phrase is discussed here along with the synonymous "my old bean":
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=716948


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> writes:

Mark your calendars. Peter Daniels and I agreed on something.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The reason that we don't have
SF Bay Area (1982-) |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the
Chicago (1964-1982) |park is that there is a significant
|overlap in intelligence between the
evan.kir...@gmail.com |smartest bears and the dumbest
|humans.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Yosemite Park Ranger

[Christopher Ingham]

Bolognaise is is not the same as bolognese, according to_Larousse
gastronomique_(rev. ed., English ed., New York: Clarkson Potter, 2001,
s.v. “_à la bolognaise_”):

“_à la bolognaise_  The French term for several dishes inspired by
Italian cookery, especially that of Bologna, that are served with a
thick sauce based on beef and vegetables, particularly tomato,
popularly associated with pasta. In Italy this becomes_alla
bolognese_and the sauce is known as_ragù_(a corrution of the French
word_ragoût_). It is richer than the French-style sauce, as it
contains chopped ham,various vegetables, beef, lean pork, chicken
livers and white wine.”

Christopher Ingham

[Christopher Ingham]

On Mar 24, 10:19 am, James Silverton <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net>
wrote:

It has been suggested that Catherine de Medici is responsible for
altering French gastronomic traditions in the early sixteenth
century, but there is no evidence of this, and the_haute cuisine_that
begins to be codified a century later shows no Italian influence.

Christopher Ingham

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le dimanche 24 mars 2013 19:33:55 UTC+1, Christopher Ingham a écrit :


> Bolognaise is is not the same as bolognese, according to_Larousse
>
> gastronomique_(rev. ed., English ed., New York: Clarkson Potter, 2001,
>
> s.v. “_à la bolognaise_”):
>
>
>
> “_à la bolognaise_  The French term for several dishes inspired by
>
> Italian cookery, especially that of Bologna, that are served with a
>
> thick sauce based on beef and vegetables, particularly tomato,
>
> popularly associated with pasta. In Italy this becomes_alla
>
> bolognese_and the sauce is known as_ragù_(a corrution of the French
>
> word_ragoût_). It is richer than the French-style sauce, as it
>
> contains chopped ham,various vegetables, beef, lean pork, chicken
>
> livers and white wine.”

***

Never heard of that.

a.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Mar 25, 2:01 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Mar 24, 12:21 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 24, 4:34 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 23, 10:53 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I have eaten spaghetti bolognaise/bolognese at a cafe in a small village
> > > > outside Bologna, and it was made of more or less the same ingredients and
> > > > served in the same manner as in Italian restaurants in South Africa and
> > > > England. I can't speak for the left coast of America.
>
> > > > When I began to eat it, however, the proprietress said I was doing it all
> > > > wrong, and showed me how the locals eat it. She mixed up the spaghetti and
> > > > mince on the plate, then sprinkled the grated cheese on top of it, and when I
> > > > began to eat it like that she nodded her approval and went back to the
> > > > kitchen.
>
> > > Uh -- how else would one eat it?
>
> > > (And why would it grow a French spelling in Bologna?)
>
> > I can't suggest anything about the eating, but the spelling -aise is
> > surely understandable, given the preeminence of things French in the
> > food world,
>
> ?? You don't know that "Italian" is considered one of the world's
> great cuisines quite on its own?

What sort of a pompous-ass question is that? (And by whom? The
International Academy of Gastronomic Opinions?)

> > and the existence of sauces like hollandaise, béarnaise,
> > mayonnaise... (Steve didn't say they actually spelled it that way on
> > the menu.) It occurs in ProQuest with about 1/4 the frequency of -ese,
> > and there are, I'm happy to report, only a handful of occurrences in
> > American papers.
>
> I'm delighted that you were so obsessed with demeaning me that you
> bothered to research the question.

(Obaue: Hey! Peter misused "demean"!)

Wipe that delight off your face. I was not even thinking of you. Weird
though it may seem, I actually get interested in some of these points
for their own sake, even if they do begin as checks on your
pronouncements. Somewhere I noticed an example of the -aise spelling
and realized that it was, in a way, natural. I did a search on that
spelling (well before Steve's post) and found quite a few examples.
What I thought you _would_ be pleased about was that it was rare in
American papers -- all the occurrences were from the 60s, except for
one later story about Switzerland, where I suppose confusion was to be
expected.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Mar 25, 7:33 am, Christopher Ingham <christophering...@comcast.net>
wrote:

If I'm reading this correctly, this is not a contrast in French. All
they are saying is that you say "bolognese" in Italian and
"bolognaise" in French, and that the French version of the sauce
differs from the Italian. Just as we have long since established here
that the Anglo/American/international version is different from
anything Italian -- in using spaghetti, for one thing.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

I guess it's imaginable that the people who referred to "spaghetti
bolognaise" in English might have been eating or serving a French-
style sauce -- but I doubt it.

[Tony Cooper]

>> > and the existence of sauces like hollandaise, b�arnaise,

>> > mayonnaise... (Steve didn't say they actually spelled it that way on
>> > the menu.) It occurs in ProQuest with about 1/4 the frequency of -ese,
>> > and there are, I'm happy to report, only a handful of occurrences in
>> > American papers.
>>
>> I'm delighted that you were so obsessed with demeaning me that you
>> bothered to research the question.
>
>(Obaue: Hey! Peter misused "demean"!)
>
>Wipe that delight off your face. I was not even thinking of you. Weird
>though it may seem, I actually get interested in some of these points
>for their own sake, even if they do begin as checks on your
>pronouncements. Somewhere I noticed an example of the -aise spelling
>and realized that it was, in a way, natural. I did a search on that
>spelling (well before Steve's post) and found quite a few examples.
>What I thought you _would_ be pleased about was that it was rare in
>American papers -- all the occurrences were from the 60s, except for
>one later story about Switzerland, where I suppose confusion was to be
>expected.

I have never heard the term "spag bol" used, and only seen it in print
written by Europeans. I've never heard "spaghetti" shortened. (My son
used to say "Psgetti" when he was a tot, though)

How is it pronounced? "Spag" to rhyme with "rag"? "Bol" as in "bowl"
or "bawl"?

I've ordered the dish and eaten the dish, but never by the shortened
name. Most Italian restaurants simply list it as "Spaghetti with meat
sauce". It adds $10 to the order if "Bolognes" is used, and at least
$12.50 if it's spaghetti with rag� alla bolognese.

It's just like the cheese added to the top. If there's no container
of grated Parmigiano cheese with a lid with big holes on the table,
and the waiter grates the cheese at the table, add $10 to the bill. A
garnish of thyme or basil is $2 a pop.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL