Re: Paleo-etymology

[António Marques]

Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On 19/09/2020 2:07 a.m., António Marques wrote:
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>> On 2020-09-18, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now, if you want to establish that there is a word _cirque_ in english,
>>>
>>> You can find it in medium-size dictionaries:
>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cirque
>>> https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=cirque
>>>
>>
>> You can find many words in Kindle's dictionary, but that doesn't mean
>> anyone actually has passive, much less active, knowledge of them.
>
> It really is an English word, Antonio. I don't understand why you're so
> skeptical. I recognized it, and could have given a rough account of its
> meaning, though I didn't learn it in school. Probably from growing up in
> a fairly mountainous part of the world, having some friends who were
> climbers and hikers, and reading things. In fact, I read it just the
> other day, in Oliver Sacks's autobiographical book _On The Move_. He
> quotes one of his own letters from 1960, when he was traveling across
> Canada, and met a man he calls "the Professor", who took him on some
> excursions into the Rockies:
>
> "The Professor...taught me to recognize glacial cirques and the
> different species of moraine...."
>
> So yes, it's a bit technical, but lots of people know it. What's the
> problem?

I fully believe the lot of you when you say it is indeed an actual english
word. Too many words included in english dictionaries are of questionable
currency and that's what I was getting at. I dare say you and Peter and
maybe the Dowd were the only participants in this thread who knew its
actual meaning rather than assuming it had something to do with circuses
(but that may be another incorrect assumption).

[DKleinecke]

I knew it. Since childhood.

[António Marques]

Nonsense, you were probably a grown up by the time the french turned -cus
into -que!!

When I said 'this thread' I did mean this specific subthread, in which I
don't think you had been a participant yet.

Yet the word is proving to be widely known. That does go against my
expectation.

[Daud Deden]

Kör@Hungarian: circle
Kerèk@Hungarian: wheel
Kolo@Polish: wheel
Okrag@Polish: circle
Gulu@Chn: circle, dome
Guilin@Chn: wheel
Gyre@Grk

[DKleinecke]

It seemed too trivial to bother with.

I have opted out of following sub-threads and only see posts to
threads in acquisition order. All sub-threads mixed together.

[Daud Deden]

Speaking of bother, I see now that on my 2 phones, Classic Groups are the preferred style. Only on the public library computers does the New Groups style dominate, where I have to physically change the style back to Classic Groups.

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 6:17:55 PM UTC-4, António Marques wrote:

Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 4:22:15 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

> Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).

Alternatively, you could try to find out what the French word "cirque"
meant to the geologist who first gave that name to the formation.

Nothing to do with coracles or curraghs.

So far, no one has disrupted GG by replying to a message earlier than
this one. Let it remain so!

[Daud Deden]

On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 10:11:29 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 4:22:15 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).
>
> Alternatively, you could try to find out what the French word "cirque"
> meant to the geologist who first gave that name to the formation.
>
> Nothing to do with coracles or curraghs.

They tend to be circular and bowl shaped.

> So far, no one has disrupted GG by replying to a message earlier than
> this one. Let it remain so!

indeed.

[Daud Deden]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rancid

Rancid rank
must differ from hierarchical rank

[Daud Deden]

Re. Ark stories

I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle with some specializations for size and cargo, and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's wheel).


https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/


Wikipedia Ziusudrah portion

After a missing section in the tablet, we learn that the gods have decided to send a flood to destroy mankind. The god Enki (lord of the underworld sea of fresh water and Sumerian equivalent of Babylonian god Ea) warns Ziusudra, the ruler of Shuruppak, to build a large boat; the passage describing the directions for the boat is also lost. When the tablet resumes, it is describing the flood. A terrible storm raged for seven days, "the huge boat had been tossed about on the great waters," then Utu (Sun) appears and Ziusudra opens a window, prostrates himself, and sacrifices an ox and a sheep. After another break, the text resumes, the flood is apparently over, and Ziusudra is prostrating himself before An (Sky) and Enlil (Lordbreath), who give him "breath eternal" and take him to dwell in Dilmun. The remainder of the poem is lost.[11][failed verification]

The Epic of Ziusudra adds an element at lines 258–261 not found in other versions, that after the river flood[12] "king Ziusudra ... they caused to dwell in the KUR Dilmun, the place where the sun rises". The Sumerian word "KUR" is an ambiguous word. Samuel Noah Kramer states that "its primary meanings is "mountain" is attested by the fact that the sign used for it is actually a pictograph representing a mountain. From the meaning "mountain" developed that of "foreign land," since the mountainous countries bordering Sumer were a constant menace to its people. Kur also came to mean "land" in general".[13]. The last sentence can be translated as "In the mountain of crossing, the mountain of Dilmun, the place where the sun rises" [14].

A Sumerian document known as the Instructions of Shuruppak dated by Kramer to about 2600 BC, refers in a later version to Ziusudra. Kramer stated "Ziusudra had become a venerable figure in literary tradition by the middle of the third millennium B.C.".[15]

Xisuthros Edit
Xisuthros (Ξισουθρος) is a Hellenization of the Sumerian Ziusudra, known from the writings of Berossus, a priest of Bel in Babylon, on whom Alexander Polyhistor relied heavily for information on Mesopotamia. Among the interesting features of this version of the flood myth, are the identification, through interpretatio graeca, of the Sumerian god Enki with the Greek god Cronus, the father of Zeus; and the assertion that the reed boat constructed by Xisuthros survived, at least until Berossus' day, in the "Corcyrean Mountains" of Armenia.

---

Comparison chart of flood heroes:
https://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/flood2/

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Re. Ark stories
>
> I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge

the Genesis ark myth does

> nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle

the Akkadian ark myth does

> with some specializations for size and cargo,

no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.

Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
vessel?

> and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> wheel).

No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.

> https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
>
> the Genesis ark myth does

Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations eventually.

>
> > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
>
> the Akkadian ark myth does
>
> > with some specializations for size and cargo,
>
> no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
>
> Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
> vessel?

Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.

> > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > wheel).
>
> No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.

About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.

The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > Re. Ark stories

> > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
>
> Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> eventually.

You do say the strangest things.

> > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > an actual vessel?
>
> Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.

Perhaps not. Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.

> > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > wheel).
> > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
>
> About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.

You do say the strangest things.

> The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/

You can't build a boat from coiled clay. You can't build a boat the
size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > Re. Ark stories
>
> > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> >
> > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > eventually.
>
> You do say the strangest things.

Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?

>
> > > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > > an actual vessel?
> >
> > Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> > royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.

I think it was 10,000 rather.

> Perhaps not. Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.

I was merely saying that royalty may have had different measures than common folk, cf royal cubit. Ziusudrah-Atrahasis was royal.

>
> > > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > > wheel).
> > > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
> >
> > About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.
>
> You do say the strangest things.

As do you.

Ape bowl nests & potters wheels are not boats, coracles are the oldest boats. Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.

> > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
>
> You can't build a boat from coiled clay.

Why not? Concrete boats exist, why not burnt clay boats? How many boats have you built? I've built one.

You can't build a boat the
> size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.

One probably could, though again, it was an ark, not a sailing vessel. Have you seen a nuclear aircraft carrier or panamax oil freighter? The cruise ships here in Miami are about 1/4 mile long, they can be extended.

[Daud Deden]

Eridu sailboat?

No deep keel, appears to be a coracle with a floor socket that would fit either a sail mast or a parasol.

https://jayseaarchaeology-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/jayseaarchaeology.wordpress.com/2019/11/08/the-myth-of-mesopotamian-sails/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=16010873073947&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fjayseaarchaeology.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F11%2F08%2Fthe-myth-of-mesopotamian-sails%2F

People of that region also made rafts with stoppered clay pots (and also inflated goat skins) beneath for increased buoyancy.

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
>
> the Genesis ark myth does
>
> > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
>
> the Akkadian ark myth does
>
> > with some specializations for size and cargo,
>
> no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.

Have you ever heard of a "king size" bed? A king needs his kingdom & his menagerie, else he's an out-caste. An ark built for a king would not fit in a Welsh fisherman's coracle. Note too, apes construct individual bowl nests, humans construct family-sized domes (Congo) or band-sized domes (Andamans).

> Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
> vessel?

A Russian Tzar had 2 round huge warships built and used them in the Black Sea.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > >
> > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > eventually.
> >
> > You do say the strangest things.
>
> Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?

Of course not. Do you?

Is that how the settlers of Australia got to the continent 40,000 -
50,000 years B.P.?

> Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.
>
> > > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
> > You can't build a boat from coiled clay.
>
> Why not? Concrete boats exist, why not burnt clay boats? How many boats have you built? I've built one.

From concrete, or from reeds?

> > You can't build a boat the
> > size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.
>
> One probably could, though again, it was an ark, not a sailing vessel. Have you seen a nuclear aircraft carrier or panamax oil freighter? The cruise ships here in Miami are about 1/4 mile long, they can be extended.

"an ark, not a sailing vessel"???

Try reading the narratives, both of them.

[Daud Deden]

maitre d'hotel
1530s, "head domestic, master or superintendent of the table in a mansion," from French maître d'hôtel, literally "house-master," from Old French maistre "master; skilled worker, educator" (12c.), from Latin magistrum (see magistrate). Sense of "hotel manager, manager of a dining room" is from 1890. Shortened form maître d' is attested from 1942
---

Maître d' <= ma(gi)ster/manager of <= mother/d'mestic? (House wife/manager//home-maker home berth/set-up (ribs & cladding, branches & broadleaves, poles & stitched hides).

[Daud Deden]

On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > >
> > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > >
> > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > eventually.
> > >
> > > You do say the strangest things.
> >
> > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
>
> Of course not. Do you?

Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved lived in domed huts, and almost certainly used coracles. I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley, if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written down and passed along.

> > > > > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > > > > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > > > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > > > > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > > > > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > > > > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > > > > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > > > > an actual vessel?
> > > > Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> > > > royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.
> >
> > I think it was 10,000 rather.
> >
> > > Perhaps not. Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.

Does that distinguish between royal and nonroyal numeration?

> > I was merely saying that royalty may have had different measures than common folk, cf royal cubit. Ziusudrah-Atrahasis was royal.
>
> Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.

Does that distinguish between common and royal numeration?

> > > > > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > > > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > > > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > > > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > > > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > > > > wheel).
> > > > > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
> > > > About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.
> > > You do say the strangest things.
> >
> > As do you.
> >
> > Ape bowl nests & potters wheels are not boats, coracles are the oldest boats.
>
> Is that how the settlers of Australia got to the continent 40,000 -
> 50,000 years B.P.?

Unknown, dugout canoes were brought to Australia by much later Austronesions.
Probably bark canoes of Australia came from Papua, derived from bowl boats.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

> > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > eventually.
> > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > Of course not. Do you?
>
> Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> lived in domed huts,

evidence?

> and almost certainly used coracles.

evidence?

> I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> down and passed along.

so what?

evidence?

[Daud Deden]

On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > Of course not. Do you?
> >
> > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > lived in domed huts,
> evidence?

I can't find my old source, but this shows it:

“The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. The Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/

> > and almost certainly used coracles.
> evidence?

Cf Eridu "sailboat" without keel or actual mast

> > I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> > if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> > down and passed along.
> so what?

So one would expect to find that Noah's ark resembled later multi-tiered wind-powered wooden ships of planed wood rather than more accurate reed rafts & bowl boats.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:44:27 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > > Of course not. Do you?
> > >
> > > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > > lived in domed huts,
> > evidence?
>
> I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
>
> “The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. The Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/

NB No reed huts.

> > > and almost certainly used coracles.
> > evidence?
>
> Cf Eridu "sailboat" without keel or actual mast

So what? (whatever "Eridu" means to you)

> > > I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> > > if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> > > down and passed along.
> > so what?
>
> So one would expect to find that Noah's ark resembled later multi-tiered wind-powered wooden ships of planed wood rather than more accurate reed rafts & bowl boats.

Where did you get _that_ from? Have you ever read the scriptural
description of Noah's Ark?

[Daud Deden]

On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:44:27 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > > > Of course not. Do you?
> > > >
> > > > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > > > lived in domed huts,
> > > evidence?
> >
> > I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
> >

> > “The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. T he Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/
> NB No reed huts.

Reed huts were used around the marshes, having rounded roofs .where bamboo-like river reeds grew. The huts there were endomed with vertical walls

> > > > and almost certainly used coracles.
> > > evidence?
> >
> > Cf Eridu "sailboat" without keel or actual mast
> So what? (whatever "Eridu" means to you)

Eridu was an early city of SUMER. EVIDENCE OF CORACLES.

> > > > > Try reading the narratives, both of them. AN ARK IS A BASKET/CONTAINER, NOT A SAILING VESSEL. (NEW GG KEYBOARD PROBLEMS)

[Daud Deden]

Australia ~40ka had ribbed bark canoes & rafts, no dugouts, no coracles. Coracles north of Kra ithsmus, Thailand, no sign of them south, only bamboo rafts in Malaya.
Ribbed coracles -> ribbed bark canoes on Coral Sea? Rafts too poor for open seas.

> > > > > > > Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.
> > > > > > > > > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
> > > > > > > > You can't build a boat from coiled clay.
> > > > > > > Why not? Concrete boats exist, why not burnt clay boats? How many boats have you built? I've built one.
> > > > > > From concrete, or from reeds?
> > > > > > > > You can't build a boat the
> > > > > > > > size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.
> > > > > > > One probably could, though again, it was an ark, not a sailing vessel. Have you seen a nuclear aircraft carrier or panamax oil freighter? The cruise ships here in Miami are about 1/4 mile long, they can be extended.
> > > > > > "an ark, not a sailing vessel"???

Right, just trying to point out the sizes today.

> > > > > > Try reading the narratives, both of them.

An ark is a waterproof basket/container, not propulsive.

[Daud Deden]

Sago processing in Papua



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me (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves change)
9:47 AM (less than a minute ago)
https://youtu.be/BpMIaCmwhFQ

Sago scoop, pancake flatbread torta pudding starch good with egg or larva (protein), 1st non-coracle boats from hull/stem mods

[Daud Deden]

Human nasal sinuses drain the wrong way, why? Most similar to African apes, but drains poorly. Effect on speech, larynx, swallowing, viruses...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSSmJLb468k

at 3 minutes

Orangutans have forward draining sinuses, have only 2 sinuses.
African apes have large drains near top of sinuses, have 4 sinuses.
Humans have small drains near top of sinues, have 4 sinuses.

[Arnaud Fournet]

so, WTF ?

[Daud Deden]

Unlike other primate mammals, humans & great apes drain maxillary sinuses near the top, which results in poor drainage and clogged sinuses. Why did that evolve? Probably, because sleeping on the back in an ape bowl nest in the forest canopy was safer (against climbing or flying predators) than sleeping exposed on a branch or in a tree fork for those with large bodies. This posture may relate also to the evolution of enlarged laryngeal air sacs in apes. Humans switched to forest floor roundshield dome huts, but still continued to sleep on the back and the sides, so the top drainage was still selected for.

It would be interesting to know if sea otters, which sleep on their backs afloat, have top-draining sinuses.

All this is relevant to vocalization, breathing, sickness etc.

[Arnaud Fournet]

=> BS...

[Daud Deden]

Tacadac, you aren't a biologist. Go back to your crayons.

[Daud Deden]

Emigrate: leave from, migrate out of
Epigraphic: write on

Exo.migrare: out.go pergi keluar
Epi.graphein: on.scrib.ble en.grave

I don't find anything deeper.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Dig your own ass.

[Daud Deden]

-ship
word-forming element meaning "quality, condition; act, power, skill; office, position; relation between," Middle English -schipe, from Old English -sciepe, Anglian -scip "state, condition of being," from Proto-Germanic *-skepi- (cognates: Old Norse -skapr, Danish -skab, Old Frisian -skip, Dutch -schap, German -schaft), from *skap- "to create, ordain, appoint," from PIE root *(s)kep-, forming words meaning "to cut, scrape, hack" (see shape (v.)).

s.haft s.hav.e x.yambua.(tlachyah)
land-scraper land-shaver lawn-siev.er (possible link to buffalo patties?)
lawnskeeper

-ship
word-forming element meaning "quality, condition; act, power, skill; office, position; relation between," Middle English -schipe, from Old English -sciepe, Anglian -scip "state, condition of being," from Proto-Germanic *-skepi- (cognates: Old Norse -skapr, Danish -skab, Old Frisian -skip, Dutch -schap, German -schaft), from *skap- "to create, ordain, appoint," from PIE root *(s)kep-, forming words meaning "to cut, scrape, hack" (see shape (v.)).

s.haft s.hav.e x.yambua.(tlachyah)
land-scraper land-shaver lawn-siev.er (possible link to buffalo patties?)
lawnskeeper

[Daud Deden]

https://www.academia.edu/954013/Is_the_syllable_frame_stored?email_work_card=thumbnail


This target article is concerned with the evolution of speech production as action.
The question is, how did we evolve the capacity to do what we do with the speech production apparatus when we speak? There will be little concern with the evolution of the conceptual structure that underlies speech actions. Instead, the focus will be on a capability typ-ically taken for granted in current linguistic theory and cognitive science: How do we explain our remarkable capacity for making the serially organized complexes of movements that constitute speech?The basic thesis is quite simple. Human speech differs from vocal communication of other mammals in that wealone superimpose a continual rhythmic alternation between an open and closed mouth (a frame) on the sound produc-tion process. The likelihood that this cyclicity, associated with the syllable, evolved from ingestive cyclicities (e.g., chewing)is indicated by the fact that much of the new development of the brain for speech purposes occurred in and around Broca’s area, in a frontal perisylvian region basic to the control of in-gestive movements in mammals. An evolutionary route from ingestive cyclicities to speech is suggested by the existence of a putative intermediate form present in many other higher primates, namely, visuofacial communicative cyclicities such as lipsmacks, tonguesmacks, and teeth chatters. The modifi-cation of the frontal perisylvian region leading to syllable pro-duction presumably made its other ingestion-related capa-bilities available for use in modulation of the basic cycle in the form of different consonants and vowels content. More generally, it is suggested that the control of speech produc-tion evolved by descent with modification within two generalpurpose primate cortical motor control systems, a medial sys-tem, associated with vocalization control in all primates, and a lateral system, including Broca’s area, that has the neces-sary emergent vocal learning capacity.In Darwin’s words, evolution is a matter of “descent with modification” (Darwin 1859, p.420). We must therefore accept the constraint noted by Huxley: “The doctrine of continuity is too well established for it to be permissible tome to suppose that any complex natural phenomenon comes into existence suddenly, and without being preceded by simpler modifications” (Huxley 1917, p.236). Conse-quently, the most successful theory of evolution of speech BEHAVIORAL AND BRAIN SCIENCES(1998)
21,
499–546
Printed in the United States of America
©
1998 Cambridge University Press
0140-525X/98 $12.50 499
The frame/content theory of evolution of speech production
Peter F. MacNeilage
Department of Psychology,University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX 78712
Electronic mail:
macne...@mail.utexas.edu
Abstract:
The species-specific organizational property of speech is a continual mouth open-close alternation, the two phases of whichare subject to continual articulatory modulation. The cycle constitutes the syllable, and the open and closed phases are segments – vow-els and consonants, respectively. The fact that segmental serial ordering errors in normal adults obey syllable structure constraints sug-gests that syllabic “frames” and segmental “content” elements are separately controlled in the speech production process. The framesmay derive from cycles of mandibular oscillation present in humans from babbling onset, which are responsible for the open-close al-ternation. These communication-related frames perhaps first evolved when the ingestion-related cyclicities of mandibular oscillation (as-sociated with mastication [chewing] sucking and licking) took on communicative significance as lipsmacks, tonguesmacks, and teeth chat-ters – displays that are prominent in many nonhuman primates. The new role of Broca’s area and its surround in human vocalcommunication may have derived from its evolutionary history as the main cortical center for the control of ingestive processes. Theframe and content components of speech may have subsequently evolved separate realizations within two general purpose primate mo-tor control systems: (1) a motivation-related medial “intrinsic” system, including anterior cingulate cortex and the supplementary motorarea, for self-generated behavior, formerly responsible for ancestral vocalization control and now also responsible for frames, and (2) alateral “extrinsic” system, including Broca’s area and surround, and Wernicke’s area, specialized for response to external input (and there-fore the emergent vocal learning capacity) and more responsible for content

[Daud Deden]

Tsuris@Yid: troubles, constrictions

Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)

[Daud Deden]

On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 3:02:19 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Tsuris@Yid: troubles, constrictions
>
> Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)

-

Marka@Rus: stamp
Tamaga@Mongol: stamp, brand, seal

[Ross Clark]

Russian marka for a postage stamp is a modern borrowing from German
Marke. The German word, like English "mark" refers to a wide range of
things, apparently generalized from the sense 'boundary marker', from
earlier 'boundary' (English "march"), IE *merg 'boundary', cf. Latin
margo: 'boundary', whence Eng "margin".

[Daud Deden]

Thanks, I thought of the German Mark and French Marchand only afterwards.

Still appears to be linked, a mark or brand indicates ownership, as does a boundary, one mobile, the other stationary.

[Christian Weisgerber]

On 2020-10-08, Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

> Russian marka for a postage stamp is a modern borrowing from German
> Marke. The German word, like English "mark" refers to a wide range of
> things, apparently generalized from the sense 'boundary marker', from
> earlier 'boundary' (English "march"), IE *merg 'boundary', cf. Latin
> margo: 'boundary', whence Eng "margin".

German "Marke" itself is a 17th century borrowing from French
"marque" from "marquer", which is borrowed from Old Norse and/or
from Italian "marcare", again from Germanic.

German also has direct reflexes (Mark, merken) of the Germanic root.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Daud Deden]

Cap@Mly: a seal, brand, stamp

Stamp/tamp/stomp/step

Marching steps in mechanical rythmic gait, drum

Tracking wild game long preceded the use of stamps & brands on livestock, papyrus, clay tablets

B.oundary/b.order/p.otli/h.oly(owned by god.s)

(B) + own(ership) -> bound
(Gr) + own(d) -> ground-grown-grained
(P) + own(d) -> £, pestle\mortar punch-press (olive, grape, nardoo pita-ru, pizza poundflatbread)

[Daud Deden]

Tamaga ~ hammer, (s)ta(m)p, tekton

hammer (n.)
Old English hamor "hammer," from Proto-Germanic *hamaraz (source also of Old Saxon hamur, Middle Dutch, Dutch hamer, Old High German hamar, German Hammer). The Old Norse cognate hamarr meant "stone, crag" (it's common in English place names), and suggests an original sense of the Germanic words as "tool with a stone head," which would describe the first hammers. The Germanic words thus could be from a PIE *ka-mer-, with reversal of initial sounds, from PIE *akmen "stone, sharp stone used as a tool" (source also of Old Church Slavonic kamy, Russian kameni "stone"), from root *ak- "be sharp, rise (out) to a point, pierce

Tactile tape touchy tlaca tocha

Tam(a)g(a) to(e) mark stepmark

Endu into

[Daud Deden]

metate@Azt: pounding stone, mill
: a stone with a concave upper surface used as the lower millstone for grinding grains especially corn

Examples of metate in a Sentence

Back to the grind: Following ancient Maya traditions, chocolate makers in Belize still grind cacao beans with a tool called a metate, made of volcanic stone.
— National Geographic, "Go Loco for Belize Cocoa," 8 Apr. 2019
At the site, four other pieces of pottery were found with a metate, a type of mortar used to ground grain or corn.
— Sarah Gibbens, National Geographic, "Ancient Remains Offer Clues About Early Americans," 1 Sep. 2017

[peter2...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:01:15 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:39:13 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Le jeudi 1 octobre 2020 12:06:40 UTC+2, Daud Deden a écrit :

Trivia: Under Arnaud's post in Google Groups, there was an offer, "Translate into English."
And so the software translated the preceding attribution line into the following

On Thursday, October 1, 2020 12:06:40 UTC + 2, Daud Deden wrote:

But it knew better than to tamper with Arnaud's one-liner,
=> BS...

Don't be too hard on him, Daud. After all, linguistics does not require
much knowledge of biology, although professinals DO have to
know about the anatomy of the parts used in speech.

Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
unless he is a troll.


Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

[Daud Deden]

PN, this thread is Re: Paleo-etymology, which is the study of ancient words and their evolution in the human language. You are welcome to participate in this group and this specific subject.

I hope you will refrain from OT behaviour, which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 12:44:33 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 10:58:54 AM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,

Just look at his posting history.

> > unless he is a troll.
> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > University of South Carolina
> > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>
> PN, this thread is Re: Paleo-etymology, which is the study of ancient words and their evolution in the human language. You are welcome to participate in this group and this specific subject.
>
> I hope you will refrain from OT behaviour, which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD

PN, you are free to post whatever you like. DD does not "own" this
thread, and DD has no understanding of linguistics, so he and AF
are a good match. AF has been refreshingly silent for weeks.

[Daud Deden]

PD, please do not incite any more foolishness, start a new thread on freedom of speech and preach your message there, not here.

[DKleinecke]

DD, as PTD says, you don't own this thread. I rarely read your posts
but if I were to I would feel free to comment. Like this.

[Arnaud Fournet]

oh, really, for weeks ??
Time flies by so quickly, I'm amazed.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le vendredi 9 octobre 2020 19:02:36 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 12:44:33 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 10:58:54 AM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
>
> Just look at his posting history.

just look at Senile PTD posting history ...
But avoid wasting too much time on his excrementa.

[Daud Deden]

OT comments are not welcome unless headed by "OT". That is merely common courtesy.

On topic comments are always welcome and indeed appreciated by most Sci.Lang participants.

Feel free to start a new thread anytime, 'Thread ownership' might be a good topic to discuss there?

[DKleinecke]

I disagree with all your points. Including your concept of "thread
ownership".

[Daud Deden]

Which is why I tend to ignore your posts, as I am far more interested in Paleo-etymology than I am in your opinions about my opinions.

[Daud Deden]

Metate@Azt: pound/groundstone, mortar
Petat(e/l)@Azt: flat mat, straw mat
Tatami@Jpn: flat mat, straw floor mat

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:21:58 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<na...@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

In Dutch we have merk (brand), merkteken (mark), Mark (name), merken
(to notice; to mark) and markeren (to mark, to limit).

[Daud Deden]

Edit

Metate@Azt: pound/groundstone, mortar
Petate/petlatl@Azt: flat palm mat
Tatami@Jpn: flat mat, rice-straw floor mat, from tatamu: to fold(?)
Cot@Egl: portable bed
Katil@Mly: bed, mattress

[Ross Clark]

Winstedt says katil is from Tamil.
If that's right, and if Eng cot really is from Hindi khāt 'bedstead,
hammock', the two might actually be related.

[Daud Deden]

Thanks, that leaves me uncertain about katu : tied, as in katu maram : tied logs = catamaran, since string beds and hammocks were used in India. A different pathway than pounded flat/mat. Matlatl@Azt: net.

[Daud Deden]

Clock

late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'

Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock

Jam@Mly: hour

[Ross Clark]

pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
pound, beat'

> Jam@Mly: hour
>

< Persian, saith Winstedt.

[Daud Deden]

On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 7:43:41 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> On 12/10/2020 4:15 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > Clock
> >
> > late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
> >
> > Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
>
> pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
> pound, beat'

Thanks. I'd say pukpuk is duplicate cognate with tektek range in Iran, source of stone tools, tekton, hammering.

[Daud Deden]

On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 7:43:41 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:

> On 12/10/2020 4:15 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > Clock
> >
> > late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
> >
> > Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
>
> pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
> pound, beat'

Might link to puki : vagina, and possibly to f*ck.

[Daud Deden]

Jam@Mly also refers to the mating of (wom)bell(y)/gong and beater/batang, fitting between jambo@Swahili, jam(Vb Egl), join/junction/conjugal@Egl, jambu@Mly: attract, jumpa@Mly: meet, etc. Are you sure pukul & jam aren't from Sanskrit re. Temple gongs? Did Proto- Austronesians use gong sounds to give hours before Hindi contact?



> >
> > < Persian, saith Winstedt.

[Ross Clark]

On 12/10/2020 2:20 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 9:00:45 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 7:43:41 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
>>> On 12/10/2020 4:15 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
>>>> Clock
>>>>
>>>> late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
>>>>
>>>> Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
>>>
>>> pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
>>> pound, beat'
>>
>> Might link to puki : vagina, and possibly to f*ck.
>>
>>
>>>> Jam@Mly: hour
>
> Jam@Mly also refers to the mating of (wom)bell(y)/gong and beater/batang, fitting between jambo@Swahili, jam(Vb Egl), join/junction/conjugal@Egl, jambu@Mly: attract, jumpa@Mly: meet, etc.

This may be what Winstedt has as jam' (< Arabic) -- 'union (of the
mystic with God)'. Everything points to both as being part of the
Islamic package that arrived a few centuries ago.

Are you sure pukul & jam aren't from Sanskrit re. Temple gongs? Did
Proto- Austronesians use gong sounds to give hours before Hindi contact?

I doubt it. Gongs were used for making music. *pukul in WMP is just
hitting anything with an implement. I suspect it acquired the time sense
when the first clocks (or maybe church bells) were brought in (by
Portuguese? Dutch?).
Muslims need to mark times for prayer, but they don't do it with bells
or gongs.

>
>
>>>
>>> < Persian, saith Winstedt.
>

[Daud Deden]

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 12:02:22 AM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> On 12/10/2020 2:20 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 9:00:45 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 7:43:41 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> >>> On 12/10/2020 4:15 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> >>>> Clock
> >>>>
> >>>> late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
> >>>>
> >>>> Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
> >>>
> >>> pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
> >>> pound, beat'
> >>
> >> Might link to puki : vagina, and possibly to f*ck.
> >>
> >>
> >>>> Jam@Mly: hour
> >
> > Jam@Mly also refers to the mating of (wom)bell(y)/gong and beater/batang,

Note: beater, beatle (stick used to flail rugs?), bat, batang

fitting between jambo@Swahili, jam(Vb Egl), join/junction/conjugal@Egl, jambu@Mly: attract, jumpa@Mly: meet, etc.
>
> This may be what Winstedt has as jam' (< Arabic) -- 'union (of the
> mystic with God)'.

Yes, a jam session of God and followers

Everything points to both as being part of the
> Islamic package that arrived a few centuries ago.

Ok, thanks.

>
> Are you sure pukul & jam aren't from Sanskrit re. Temple gongs? Did
> Proto- Austronesians use gong sounds to give hours before Hindi contact?
>
> I doubt it. Gongs were used for making music.

I thought also used for courtly appointments.

*pukul in WMP is just
> hitting anything with an implement. I suspect it acquired the time sense
> when the first clocks (or maybe church bells) were brought in (by
> Portuguese? Dutch?).
> Muslims need to mark times for prayer, but they don't do it with bells
> or gongs.

Right.

>
> >
> >
> >>>
> >>> < Persian, saith Winstedt.
> >

[nyik...@gmail.com]

I was reacting to a sentence with the word "crayons" which looked OT to me.
Didn't you think of it as being OT also?

>which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD

Well, lets see whether you deem the following to be OT or not...

My father was a linguist, and he was looking for a big hunk of his life
at the words we share in a more general sense. He specialized in verbs
depicting circular motions - multiple circles, arcs of circles, rolling
circles...

He found early on that about 80% of these words in Magyar (Hungarian), English,
and German -- the languages in which he was fluent -- have the sound
of R in them. Then someone told him about Plato's dialogue "Cratylus"
where Socrates said this about Greek words.

Then he went a step further, and started going through his considerable
store of Magyar books and, during much of the 60's and 70's, collected allthe uses of such verbs that he could find. He processed something like
25 million words doing this. The final outcome was the same: over 80% here too.

His main hypothesis was that the R wasn't accidental, that the original
words from which all the rest were derived were a case of onomotopea. IIRC
Plato has Socrates come to the same conclusion.

And that certainly seems close to fitting the title of this thread,
"Paleo-etymology." However, maybe it is too Paleo- for us to make
it a fruitful discussion topic. What say you?

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina

http://www.math.sc.edu/~nyikos/

[Daud Deden]

No, it was equivalent to me telling him to stop mindlessly insulting me and get back to the chalkboard to do the linguistic work he actually knows about.

The French word crayon, originally meaning "chalk pencil", dates to around the 16th century, and it derives from the word craie (chalk) which comes from the Latin word creta (Earth).
Crayon - Wikipedia

I generally request of anyone reading & responding to the Paleo-etymology threads to not go off on tangents unrelated to the topic, but instead to create their own thread.

> >which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD
>
> Well, lets see whether you deem the following to be OT or not...

Not a bit, thanks deeply for sharing your father's explorations, I would have loved to have discussed them with him.

> My father was a linguist, and he was looking for a big hunk of his life
> at the words we share in a more general sense. He specialized in verbs
> depicting circular motions - multiple circles, arcs of circles, rolling
> circles...
>
> He found early on that about 80% of these words in Magyar (Hungarian), English,
> and German -- the languages in which he was fluent -- have the sound
> of R in them.

Amongst other tongues, L can supplant R, and in some, U can instead, in my experience. Eg. (Nouns)

[Word@Language: English translation]

Gulu@Chn: circle, dome
Guilin@Chn: wheel
Kolo@Pol: wheel
Coloa@Azt: coil, hut (frmr dome)
Bulatan@Mly: circle

Then someone told him about Plato's dialogue "Cratylus"
> where Socrates said this about Greek words.

Expanding to Greek.

>
> Then he went a step further, and started going through his considerable
> store of Magyar books and, during much of the 60's and 70's, collected allthe uses of such verbs that he could find. He processed something like
> 25 million words doing this. The final outcome was the same: over 80% here too.
>
> His main hypothesis was that the R wasn't accidental, that the original
> words from which all the rest were derived were a case of onomotopea.

Very interesting. I don't know how an R sound would translate into a verb associated with circles. Why not an open mouth forming an "O", an open circle?

IIRC
> Plato has Socrates come to the same conclusion.
>
> And that certainly seems close to fitting the title of this thread,
> "Paleo-etymology."

Yes indeed.

However, maybe it is too Paleo- for us to make
> it a fruitful discussion topic. What say you?
>
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> University of South Carolina
> http://www.math.sc.edu/~nyikos/

I say it sounds wonderfully on topic.

(My interest in Plato has been largely geometric.)

[nyik...@gmail.com]

Really? I thought it came from the name of the island of Crete. The
Magyar word for them is the same: Kreta, with an acute accent over the e.

I've always assumed that there were big chalk deposits in Crete, like
the cliffs of Dover, because of this. Maybe I ought to look into this
more closely.

> Crayon - Wikipedia
>
> I generally request of anyone reading & responding to the Paleo-etymology threads to not go off on tangents unrelated to the topic, but instead to create their own thread.
>
> > >which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD
> >
> > Well, lets see whether you deem the following to be OT or not...
>
> Not a bit, thanks deeply for sharing your father's explorations, I would have loved to have discussed them with him.

I probably should have discussed them with him more than I did. He did
tell me lots of tidbits about languages that has given me a lifelong
interest in the subject. I did a lot of poring over "Ethnologue" on
the internet, especially the years after quitting Usenet
cold turkey in mid-2001 and only returning at the beginning
of November 2008.

One language that was missing from "Ethnologue" was Silbo Gomero, the
whistling language of the Canary Islands. This may be because the
whistling sounds are designed to mimic actual words. But then,
so is the most usual sign language (but not Ameslan).

>
> > My father was a linguist, and he was looking for a big hunk of his life
> > at the words we share in a more general sense. He specialized in verbs
> > depicting circular motions - multiple circles, arcs of circles, rolling
> > circles...

> > He found early on that about 80% of these words in Magyar (Hungarian), English,
> > and German -- the languages in which he was fluent -- have the sound
> > of R in them.
>
> Amongst other tongues, L can supplant R, and in some, U can instead, in my experience. Eg. (Nouns)
>
> [Word@Language: English translation]
>
> Gulu@Chn: circle, dome
> Guilin@Chn: wheel
> Kolo@Pol: wheel
> Coloa@Azt: coil, hut (frmr dome)
> Bulatan@Mly: circle
>
> > Then someone told him about Plato's dialogue "Cratylus"
> > where Socrates said this about Greek words.
>
> Expanding to Greek.
>
> >
> > Then he went a step further, and started going through his considerable
> > store of Magyar books and, during much of the 60's and 70's, collected all
> > the uses of such verbs that he could find. He processed something like
> > 25 million words doing this. The final outcome was the same: over 80% here too.
> >
> > His main hypothesis was that the R wasn't accidental, that the original
> > words from which all the rest were derived were a case of onomotopea.
>
> Very interesting. I don't know how an R sound would translate into a verb associated with circles. Why not an open mouth forming an "O", an open circle?

One, these are verbs, not nouns, and most motions have sounds associated
with them.

Two, "circular" is rather broad: spiraling is included, for instance.

> IIRC
> > Plato has Socrates come to the same conclusion.
> >
> > And that certainly seems close to fitting the title of this thread,
> > "Paleo-etymology."
>
> Yes indeed.
>
> > However, maybe it is too Paleo- for us to make
> > it a fruitful discussion topic. What say you?
> >
> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > University of South Carolina
> > http://www.math.sc.edu/~nyikos/
>
> I say it sounds wonderfully on topic.

Thanks. It's too bad you are more than a decade too late to be able to
converse with my father, and that none of us offspring followed in his footsteps professionally.

[António Marques]

Cf Sicilian _critaru_ 'clay deposit' < *cretarius. Of course, Sicily spoke
greek before it spoke latin...

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 at 9:59:18 PM UTC-4, nyik...@gmail.com

> One language that was missing from "Ethnologue" was Silbo Gomero, the
> whistling language of the Canary Islands. This may be because the
> whistling sounds are designed to mimic actual words. But then,
> so is the most usual sign language (but not Ameslan).

It's not a "language," but a signaling system that's based on the
pitch-contours of the spoken language of the people who used it.
It works because the sounds of whistling carry well through mountain
valleys.

It's not a unique phenomenon; (Donna) Jean Umiker is the authority
on "drum and whistle languages" and wrote one and edited at least
one book on the subject. You'll find a survey by her in vol. 12,
part 1, of Current Trends in Linguistics (ed. Thomas A. Sebeok,
1974),* which predates the books. (They were married in 1973,
when he was 53 and she was 27. This isn't indicated in the volume
or in the biographical paragraph in the Index volume of 1976, but
she subsequently published as Jean Umiker-Sebeok.)

*Though there's no indication of when the ms. of the book was
completed, except that chapters in it have Addenda and Supplements.

"Ameslan" is not an alternative name for American Sign Language.
It is a disparaging, even derogatory, term for "Signed English,"
which isn't a language as ASL is, but an attempt to mimic English
vocabulary and syntax, maybe a sort of pidgin.

[Daud Deden]

https://hu.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kr%C3%A9ta_(egy%C3%A9rtelm%C5%B1s%C3%ADt%C5%91_lap)

Chalk

In Bali, a bicycle is kreta angin (wind cart, because it was thought to be wind-powered).

[Daud Deden]

Re noun, verb

Circle noun
Encircle, circulate verb
Cycle noun, verb

Distinguishing nouns from verbs can be difficult without context.

[Daud Deden]

On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 6:02:29 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 3:02:19 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Tsuris@Yid: troubles, constrictions
> >
> > Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)
>
> -
>
> Marka@Rus: stamp
> Tamaga@Mongol: stamp, brand, seal

Tanda@Indon: mark, tik, enclosing, check, a sign of...

[Daud Deden]

Mongolian plateau: did the name mongol derive from the place?

Mound, mesa.

Mongolu@Mbuti: dome hut

Is 'kara' a word meaning black, dark in Asian tongues?

Kara Khitai: tribe active during Genghis Khan's battles. Meaning black capes?

Gala: means black, raven in some IE/Balkan tongues.

(Men)Gelap@Mly: dark(en). derived from inside hut/under shield, thus ~ monguoluo/mbuangualua

-
http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2020/10/gal.html?m=1

Finally we have a very little known word Gal. It comes from Proto-Slavic Galъ, and is of uncertain origin...

I would like to talk here about this word...

In dialectic dictionaries of Crna Trava region and South Morava region of Serbia we find these interesting words:

Gal - black, dark
Galati - make dirty, black (gal)
Galin - black (gal) horse
Gal, Galić - raven, black (gal) bird
Galjan - black, dark person, negro
Galičast - black (gal)
Galovran - black (galo) crow. This one is very interesting. Because black crows don't live in Serbia.

Croatian we find

Galka, Galica - chough

In Bulgarian we find

Gal - pitch black, dirt
Galica - Black corvid, raven, jackdaw, chough
Galata - dirt, black

In Czech we find

Gał - pitch (black substance)

In Ukrainian and Russian we find

Galka - jackdaw
Sanskrit, Hindi, Punjabi, Romani we find

kala - black

In Nepali we find

kalo - black

This is the root of the name of the Goddess Kali...



And in Gaelic we find

"Cailleach"

[Daud Deden]

EDAR gene mutation ~30ka affects east Asians: decreased body hair, increased eccrine sweat glands (more dermcidin biochemical armor against microbes), smaller breasts, shovel-shaped incisors (possibly due to reduced canine size).

---

Mongols, who have very reduced body hair due to EDAR mutation, physically removed all their body hair & most scalp hair to control lice infestation, only facial hair & side braids (outside of hat) retained.

Oldest shoes China 45ka.

Oldest clothes China? -> edar?

-

Domestication creates our hairless shape (this effect is seen in other domesticated creatures) loss of cranial thickness, gracile bones.
Jack D Barnes at AAT
-

Domestication (breeding under human control) does not result in hair loss, unless that is a preferred trait.

Domestication (shielded from natural environmental extremes, endomed) does select for hair reduction in Homo, since biting insects, heat, cold, wetness are under human control during periods of rest & sleep. Sleeping in small domeshields retains head hair as sensorial protection of the face, and provides solar shading diurnally to an upright bipedal strider.

Reduction of body hair paralleled reduction of canines (eyeteeth) in Homo due to regular safe sheltering.

Titi monkeys greatly reduced canines but retained long thick body hair because biting insects and heat/cold penetrate their "liana tangle" shelters but predators cannot.

All other primates, monkeys, apes retain long canine teeth & long thick body hair and sleep exposed to biting insects, heat & cold and wetness, although great apes have a relative reduction in canine length and hair density vs monkeys & lesser apes.

Safe nocturnal sheltering of all ages increased selection for crepuscular/nocturnal communication in Homo groups, selecting for acoustic (spoken, drumming), non-visible (non-gestural), language.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Did you notice that your "posts" float in the middle of a pornorrhea of spam.

[Daud Deden]

On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 5:35:19 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Mongolian plateau: did the name mongol derive from the place?

Apparently Mongol was the term invented by G Khan for his new tribe, unknown etymology. Khan was a member of the Black Tartars. Black refers to North of the 4 primary directions.
The Black/Kara Khitai/Khitan/Cathay/Liao of Central Asia were distinct.

[Daud Deden]

I have blocked those. I cannot block spam within the Paleo-etymology threads, to my regret.

[Arnaud Fournet]

It's because you belong to the same pornorrhea of spam !

[Daud Deden]

On Thursday, October 22, 2020 at 7:11:28 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:

His usual spam.

[Daud Deden]

On Thursday, October 22, 2020 at 6:55:10 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 5:35:19 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Mongolian plateau: did the name mongol derive from the place?
>
> Apparently Mongol was the term invented by G Khan for his new tribe, unknown etymology. Khan was a member of the Black Tartars. Black refers to North of the 4 primary directions.

The Black/Kara Khitai/Khitan/Cathay/Liao of Central Asia were distinct, had run the Khitai Empire of China before the Jurched/Jin of Manchuria kicked them out, then settled in west as kara khitai or western Liao.

[Daud Deden]

Building Blocks of Language Evolved at least 40 Million Years before Language Itself, Study Shows

Oct 22, 2020 by News Staff / Source

In a new study, published this week in the journal Science Advances, apes and monkeys were able to track relationships between sounds the same way as humans, showing that this ability predates the evolution of language itself by at least 40 million years.

http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/building-blocks-language-08977.html

Stuart K. Watson et al. 2020. Nonadjacent dependency processing in monkeys, apes, and humans. Science Advances 6 (43): eabb0725; doi: 10.1126/sciadv.abb0725

For example, in the sentence ‘the dog who bit the cat ran away’ we understand that is it the dog who ran away rather than the cat, thanks to being able to process the relationship between the first and last phrases.

“Most animals do not produce non-adjacent dependencies in their own natural communication systems, but we wanted to know whether they might nevertheless be able to understand them,” said first author Dr. Stuart Watson, a researcher at the University of Zürich.

For their experiments, the scientists created artificial grammars in which sequences made up of meaningless tones instead of words were used to examine the abilities of subjects to process the relationships between sounds.

This made it possible to compare the ability to recognize non-contiguous dependencies between three different primate species, even though they do not share a common language.

The experiments were carried out with common marmosets, chimpanzees and humans.

The authors found that all three species were readily able to process the relationships between both adjacent and non-adjacent sound elements.

Non-adjacent dependency processing is, therefore, widespread in the primate family.

“The implications of this finding are significant,” said Professor Townsend, senior author of the study.

“This indicates that this critical feature of language already existed in our ancient primate ancestors, predating the evolution of language itself by at least 30-40 million years.”

_____

[nyik...@gmail.com]

Word endings help a lot in Magyar. It is a highly inflected language.


A fascinating Paleo question: which came first, inflected or uninflected
languages?

That's probably too hard, so here is one for which many partial answers
could probably be given: which inflected languages came from uninflected ones,
and which evolved the other way around?


To remind readers here how very different the two kinds of languages can be,
a good illustration is the way Latin can completely scramble a
sentence like "The dog bit the man" without it ever being confused
with "The man bit the dog."

In Magyar, a difference in word order shifts the emphasis. A generic, unemphasized translation runs,

A kutya megharapta az embert. [Same word order, one to one.]

Megharapta az embert a kutya. [It didn't just lick him, it bit him.]

Emphasis also comes by splitting "megharapta":

Az embert a kutya harapta meg . [Like, it wasn't the raccoon that bit him.]

Az embert harapta meg a kutya. [It wasn't another dog that it bit.]

It works for interrogative sentences too:

Harapta az embert meg a kutya? [Poor man!]

Harapta a kutya meg az embert? [Bad dog!]


By the way, if you really want to say "The man bit the dog," you have to swap the -t ending around:

Az ember megharapta a kutyat. [Another change is that the "a" in kutyat gets an acute accent.]


Peter Nyikos

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le vendredi 23 octobre 2020 01:57:13 UTC+2, nyik...@gmail.com a écrit :
> On Wednesday, October 14, 2020 at 10:41:07 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re noun, verb
> >
> > Circle noun
> > Encircle, circulate verb
> > Cycle noun, verb
> >
> > Distinguishing nouns from verbs can be difficult without context.
>
> Word endings help a lot in Magyar. It is a highly inflected language.

What's the difference between "inflected" and "highly inflected"?

Please explain.

[Daud Deden]

PN, thanks for sharing. Let's copy/paste your post to a new thread entitled "Paleo-linguistcs" so it doesn't get lost. The reason is of course your post is about sentence structure, grammar, word endings in Hungarian, which belong in Linguistics, rather than etymology, and certainly not Paleo-etymology, which has a singular foundation statement that "there is only one human language", Hungarian being naturally a geopolitical dialect of that one human language. I'll start the new thread now.

[Daud Deden]

On nesting & carrying

nidicolous (adj.)

of birds, "bearing young which are helpless at birth," 1896, from Modern Latin Nidicolae (1894), the zoologists' collective name for the species of birds having the young born in a more or less helpless condition, unable to leave the nest for some time and fed directly by the parent, from Latin nidus "nest" (see nest (n.)) + colere "to inhabit" (see colony). Contrasted to nidifugous birds (1902), whose young are well-developed and leave the nest at birth (from Latin fugere "to flee").

Cf altricial, prococial

nest (n.)
"structure built by a bird or domestic fowl for the insulation and rearing of its young," Old English nest "bird's nest; snug retreat," also "young bird, brood," from Proto-Germanic *nistaz (source also of Middle Low German, Middle Dutch nest, German Nest; not found in Scandinavian or Gothic), from PIE *nizdo- (source also of Sanskrit nidah "resting place, nest," Latin nidus "nest," Old Church Slavonic gnezdo, Old Irish net, Welsh nyth, Breton nez "nest"), probably from *ni "down" + from PIE root *sed- (1) "to sit". Onletym

Nest
Old English, of Germanic origin; related to Latin nidus, from the Indo-European bases of nether (meaning ‘down’) and sit. Wiki

Etymology Edit
From Middle English nest, nist, nyst, from Old English nest, from Proto-Germanic *nestą, from Proto-Indo-European *nisdós (“nest”), literally "where [the bird] sits down", a compound of *ni (“down”) (whence also English nether) + the zero-grade of the root *sed- (“to sit”) (whence also English sit).

Latvian Etymology
Cognate with Lithuanian nèšti (“to carry, bring”)

Dìdžiąją dãlį trasòs tẽko nèšti mažiùką añt rankų̃. - I ended up having to carry (to nest) my little one in my arms for most of the route

From Proto-West Germanic *nest, from Proto-Germanic *nestą. Cognate with Old Church Slavonic гнѣздо (gnězdo, “nest”), Old Irish net (“nest”), Latin nīdus (“nest”), Sanskrit नीड (nīḍa, “nest”), Albanian neth (“sprout, bud”), Old Armenian նիստ (nist, “sitting; seat; property”).

[Ross Clark]

Looks like you have a Latvian enthusiast in there. Baltic (and Slavic)
*nes- 'carry' is not cognate with the "nest" words.

[Daud Deden]

I think that is debatable. My hypothesis is that ancient humans ~1ma in nomadic H&G bands carried simple spears & portable dome shields, and mothers carried their pre-pedal infants (nestled) in their arms, then words for woven birds nests, woven-knotted nets (rete), inter-locking fingers (knuckle?), dome hut wicker frame over-under nodes, would be expected to share modern resemblances due to ancient origin. IOW anciently cognate. But if true, it would be reflected in virtually all tongues, not just in English, or IE derivatives.

A bit of work still to be done.

[Daud Deden]

nook (n.)
c. 1300, noke, "angle formed by the meeting of two lines; a corner of a room," a word of unknown origin. Possibly from Old Norse and connected with Norwegian dialectal nokke "hook, bent figure," or from Old English hnecca "neck," but the sense evolution would be difficult. OED considers the similar Celtic words to be borrowings from English. Meaning "remote or secluded place" is by late 14c

Unrelated to rookery

[Daud Deden]

Niche actually means nest. Both Homo and titis dwell in tangled/woven shelters which predators can't penetrate, so both reduced their canine eyeteeth to match the tooth row, but titi monkeys nest in liana tangles which allowed flying biting insects and rain-cold to penetrate so they retained the fur coat, while human domeshields prevented these, thus resulting in the "naked ape".

niche (n.)
1610s, "shallow recess in a wall," from French niche "recess (for a dog), kennel" (14c.), perhaps from Italian nicchia "niche, nook," which is said to be from nicchio "seashell," itself said by Klein, Barnhart, etc. to be probably from Latin mitulus "mussel," but the change of -m- to -n- is not explained (Century Dictionary compares napkin from Latin mappa). Watkins suggests that the word is from an Old French noun derived from nichier "to nestle, nest, build a nest," via Gallo-Roman *nidicare from Latin nidus "nest" (see nidus), but that, too, has difficulties. The figurative sense is recorded by 1725. Biological use dates from 1927.

Mongoluo@PPygmy: dome hut
Negara@Mly: nation (Sskt?), home
Mengelap@Mly: dark.en ~ nigra mela
Njambuangdualua: thicket dweller?
Njama@Mbuti: thicket

[Daud Deden]

Naked from nogw@PIE to naan@Hin

(Bogel@Mly: naked)

https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/In-a-Word/2019/0207/Stripping-down-the-origins-of-naked

Linguists have tried to reconstruct Proto-Indo-European, and have determined that a root that might be approximated in modern English as nog- gave rise to the English naked as well as a surprisingly diverse bunch of other words.

In Latin, the root became nudus, which by the 16th century had produced the English word nude. At first this was a legal term for a promise not formally attested to by witnesses or in writing ..
Greek, nog- became gumnos, which became the Greek gymnasium, a place where men and boys exercised, as was the custom, naked. English adopted this word in the 17th century to mean a space dedicated to athletic instruction, presumably with everybody’s clothes on. And it gave Hindi and Urdu naan, a flat bread that is baked “naked” in an oven and not buried in the ashes of a fire, which had been one of the earliest baking techniques.
---

Naan had not fit well with other pita/pizza/pan/roti/brod pattern, good to know its origin!

[Daud Deden]

-

Bogel/nogw/nudus/naked/nude/birthday suit/bereshit/em.body/naan/gumnos/>gymnasium/hygeine/genital

Njambuangdualua > buanuaguandua
buang@Mly: excrete, throw out
nacod@OE: naked
guano@Spn?: feces of bat, bird

[Ross Clark]

I did say "cognate" (as did the Latvian enthusiast). Using the word in
its normal ("neo-etymological") sense, it is not cognate. And since this
remark was included in the middle of a lot of perfectly correct
etymological notes, I thought I should point out its incorrectness.

I did suspect that you would have reasons to believe that the two were
"related" or "linked" or "anciently cognate". Fine.

[Daud Deden]

Would you agree that among the most important items carried by highly mobile ancient humans were near-immoble infants? Efe Pygmy newborns are handled and carried by 14 alloparents in the first few days of life.

Latvian Translations of carry

pārvadāt
transport, carry, convey, haul, tote

nest
bear, carry, return

vest
lead, carry, conduct, take, keep, go


Latvian Translations of nest

ligzda
nest, socket, mortise, connection, mortice, aerie

kaktiņš
nest

perēklis
hotbed, nest, nidus, den

[Ross Clark]

Quite likely, but not relevant to questions of IE etymology.
Note also that birds don't carry their young around.

[Daud Deden]

Thanks. I agree. Nor do birds move completed nests, they just rebuild from scratch. Humans, aside from being warmblooded bipeds, are very different from birds. Arboreal great apes and arboreal songbirds weave bowl nests and retain pelage. Humans mostly lost the coat.
The soldier wren of New Zealand constructs dome nests on the ground for young, as do AMHs Pygmies, I doubt it carries the nest or the chicks. Lithuanian lizdas sounds to me similar to nest(ahs).

Lithuanian Translations of nest
noun

lizdas
socket, nest, nidus, aerie, den, family

gūžta
nest, aerie

jaukus kampelis
nest, cosy nook

paukščių jaunikliai
nest

lindynė
den, slum, hole, nest, jungle

grupė
group, range, party, set, unit, nest

vienodų daiktų rinkinys
nest

[Ross Clark]

Yes, forgot to mention that. Looks similar enough to Slavic gnězdo that
it might be a genuine cognate.

[Daud Deden]

Nest\carry in Hindi: ghonsala\nikalana
Nest\carry in Tamil: Kūṭu\Eṭuttuccel
Nest\carry in Bangla: Nīṛa\Bahana
Similarity nika.lana, nira
Nest\carry in Malay: sarang\bawa

[Daud Deden]

On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 11:49:07 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Nest\carry in Hindi: ghonsala\nikalana

To me, there is a plausible link between (gho)nsala and nikala(na) which I'd note as nxala: nestle, which could describe both the hugging of an infant during transit, and the snuggling of an infant in a cradle.

[Daud Deden]

Nest\carry in Azt: chiquihuitl\nitlahuica

Etymology Edit
From tōtōtl (“bird”) +‎ chiquihuitl (“basket”).

I carry something nitlahuica

Nest\carry in Basque habia\izan/eduki/eraman

bird's nest: txori habia

Nest\carry in Finn: pesä.ke\kuljettaa, kantaa

Not much linkage...