Re: Paleo-etymology

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António Marques

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Sep 18, 2020, 6:17:55 PM9/18/20
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Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On 19/09/2020 2:07 a.m., António Marques wrote:
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>> On 2020-09-18, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now, if you want to establish that there is a word _cirque_ in english,
>>>
>>> You can find it in medium-size dictionaries:
>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cirque
>>> https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=cirque
>>>
>>
>> You can find many words in Kindle's dictionary, but that doesn't mean
>> anyone actually has passive, much less active, knowledge of them.
>
> It really is an English word, Antonio. I don't understand why you're so
> skeptical. I recognized it, and could have given a rough account of its
> meaning, though I didn't learn it in school. Probably from growing up in
> a fairly mountainous part of the world, having some friends who were
> climbers and hikers, and reading things. In fact, I read it just the
> other day, in Oliver Sacks's autobiographical book _On The Move_. He
> quotes one of his own letters from 1960, when he was traveling across
> Canada, and met a man he calls "the Professor", who took him on some
> excursions into the Rockies:
>
> "The Professor...taught me to recognize glacial cirques and the
> different species of moraine...."
>
> So yes, it's a bit technical, but lots of people know it. What's the
> problem?

I fully believe the lot of you when you say it is indeed an actual english
word. Too many words included in english dictionaries are of questionable
currency and that's what I was getting at. I dare say you and Peter and
maybe the Dowd were the only participants in this thread who knew its
actual meaning rather than assuming it had something to do with circuses
(but that may be another incorrect assumption).

DKleinecke

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Sep 18, 2020, 8:45:05 PM9/18/20
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I knew it. Since childhood.

António Marques

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Sep 18, 2020, 11:15:36 PM9/18/20
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Nonsense, you were probably a grown up by the time the french turned -cus
into -que!!

When I said 'this thread' I did mean this specific subthread, in which I
don't think you had been a participant yet.

Yet the word is proving to be widely known. That does go against my
expectation.

Daud Deden

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Sep 19, 2020, 12:31:54 AM9/19/20
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Kör@Hungarian: circle
Kerèk@Hungarian: wheel
Kolo@Polish: wheel
Okrag@Polish: circle
Gulu@Chn: circle, dome
Guilin@Chn: wheel
Gyre@Grk

DKleinecke

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Sep 19, 2020, 1:54:31 AM9/19/20
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It seemed too trivial to bother with.

I have opted out of following sub-threads and only see posts to
threads in acquisition order. All sub-threads mixed together.

Daud Deden

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Sep 19, 2020, 4:14:08 AM9/19/20
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Speaking of bother, I see now that on my 2 phones, Classic Groups are the preferred style. Only on the public library computers does the New Groups style dominate, where I have to physically change the style back to Classic Groups.

Daud Deden

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Sep 19, 2020, 4:22:15 AM9/19/20
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On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 6:17:55 PM UTC-4, António Marques wrote:
Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 19, 2020, 10:11:29 AM9/19/20
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On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 4:22:15 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

> Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).

Alternatively, you could try to find out what the French word "cirque"
meant to the geologist who first gave that name to the formation.

Nothing to do with coracles or curraghs.

So far, no one has disrupted GG by replying to a message earlier than
this one. Let it remain so!

Daud Deden

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Sep 19, 2020, 4:29:48 PM9/19/20
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On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 10:11:29 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 4:22:15 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).
>
> Alternatively, you could try to find out what the French word "cirque"
> meant to the geologist who first gave that name to the formation.
>
> Nothing to do with coracles or curraghs.

They tend to be circular and bowl shaped.

> So far, no one has disrupted GG by replying to a message earlier than
> this one. Let it remain so!

indeed.

Daud Deden

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Sep 20, 2020, 10:24:55 PM9/20/20
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https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rancid

Rancid rank
must differ from hierarchical rank

Daud Deden

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Sep 25, 2020, 8:03:17 AM9/25/20
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Re. Ark stories

I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle with some specializations for size and cargo, and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's wheel).


https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/


Wikipedia Ziusudrah portion

After a missing section in the tablet, we learn that the gods have decided to send a flood to destroy mankind. The god Enki (lord of the underworld sea of fresh water and Sumerian equivalent of Babylonian god Ea) warns Ziusudra, the ruler of Shuruppak, to build a large boat; the passage describing the directions for the boat is also lost. When the tablet resumes, it is describing the flood. A terrible storm raged for seven days, "the huge boat had been tossed about on the great waters," then Utu (Sun) appears and Ziusudra opens a window, prostrates himself, and sacrifices an ox and a sheep. After another break, the text resumes, the flood is apparently over, and Ziusudra is prostrating himself before An (Sky) and Enlil (Lordbreath), who give him "breath eternal" and take him to dwell in Dilmun. The remainder of the poem is lost.[11][failed verification]

The Epic of Ziusudra adds an element at lines 258–261 not found in other versions, that after the river flood[12] "king Ziusudra ... they caused to dwell in the KUR Dilmun, the place where the sun rises". The Sumerian word "KUR" is an ambiguous word. Samuel Noah Kramer states that "its primary meanings is "mountain" is attested by the fact that the sign used for it is actually a pictograph representing a mountain. From the meaning "mountain" developed that of "foreign land," since the mountainous countries bordering Sumer were a constant menace to its people. Kur also came to mean "land" in general".[13]. The last sentence can be translated as "In the mountain of crossing, the mountain of Dilmun, the place where the sun rises" [14].

A Sumerian document known as the Instructions of Shuruppak dated by Kramer to about 2600 BC, refers in a later version to Ziusudra. Kramer stated "Ziusudra had become a venerable figure in literary tradition by the middle of the third millennium B.C.".[15]

Xisuthros Edit
Xisuthros (Ξισουθρος) is a Hellenization of the Sumerian Ziusudra, known from the writings of Berossus, a priest of Bel in Babylon, on whom Alexander Polyhistor relied heavily for information on Mesopotamia. Among the interesting features of this version of the flood myth, are the identification, through interpretatio graeca, of the Sumerian god Enki with the Greek god Cronus, the father of Zeus; and the assertion that the reed boat constructed by Xisuthros survived, at least until Berossus' day, in the "Corcyrean Mountains" of Armenia.

---

Comparison chart of flood heroes:
https://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/flood2/

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 25, 2020, 9:16:25 AM9/25/20
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On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Re. Ark stories
>
> I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge

the Genesis ark myth does

> nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle

the Akkadian ark myth does

> with some specializations for size and cargo,

no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.

Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
vessel?

> and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> wheel).

No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.

> https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/

Daud Deden

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Sep 25, 2020, 1:41:13 PM9/25/20
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On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
>
> the Genesis ark myth does

Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations eventually.
>
> > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
>
> the Akkadian ark myth does
>
> > with some specializations for size and cargo,
>
> no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
>
> Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
> vessel?

Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.

> > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > wheel).
>
> No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.

About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.

The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 25, 2020, 1:56:53 PM9/25/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > Re. Ark stories

> > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
>
> Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> eventually.

You do say the strangest things.

> > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > an actual vessel?
>
> Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.

Perhaps not. Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.

> > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > wheel).
> > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
>
> About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.

You do say the strangest things.

> The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/

You can't build a boat from coiled clay. You can't build a boat the
size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.

Daud Deden

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Sep 25, 2020, 10:10:38 PM9/25/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > Re. Ark stories
>
> > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> >
> > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > eventually.
>
> You do say the strangest things.

Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?

>
> > > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > > an actual vessel?
> >
> > Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> > royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.

I think it was 10,000 rather.

> Perhaps not. Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.

I was merely saying that royalty may have had different measures than common folk, cf royal cubit. Ziusudrah-Atrahasis was royal.

>
> > > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > > wheel).
> > > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
> >
> > About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.
>
> You do say the strangest things.

As do you.

Ape bowl nests & potters wheels are not boats, coracles are the oldest boats. Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.

> > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
>
> You can't build a boat from coiled clay.

Why not? Concrete boats exist, why not burnt clay boats? How many boats have you built? I've built one.

You can't build a boat the
> size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.

One probably could, though again, it was an ark, not a sailing vessel. Have you seen a nuclear aircraft carrier or panamax oil freighter? The cruise ships here in Miami are about 1/4 mile long, they can be extended.

Daud Deden

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Sep 25, 2020, 10:42:29 PM9/25/20
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Daud Deden

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Sep 26, 2020, 7:04:44 AM9/26/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
>
> the Genesis ark myth does
>
> > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
>
> the Akkadian ark myth does
>
> > with some specializations for size and cargo,
>
> no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.

Have you ever heard of a "king size" bed? A king needs his kingdom & his menagerie, else he's an out-caste. An ark built for a king would not fit in a Welsh fisherman's coracle. Note too, apes construct individual bowl nests, humans construct family-sized domes (Congo) or band-sized domes (Andamans).

> Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
> vessel?

A Russian Tzar had 2 round huge warships built and used them in the Black Sea.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 26, 2020, 8:56:09 AM9/26/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > >
> > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > eventually.
> >
> > You do say the strangest things.
>
> Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?

Of course not. Do you?
Is that how the settlers of Australia got to the continent 40,000 -
50,000 years B.P.?

> Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.
>
> > > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
> > You can't build a boat from coiled clay.
>
> Why not? Concrete boats exist, why not burnt clay boats? How many boats have you built? I've built one.

From concrete, or from reeds?

> > You can't build a boat the
> > size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.
>
> One probably could, though again, it was an ark, not a sailing vessel. Have you seen a nuclear aircraft carrier or panamax oil freighter? The cruise ships here in Miami are about 1/4 mile long, they can be extended.

"an ark, not a sailing vessel"???

Try reading the narratives, both of them.

Daud Deden

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Sep 26, 2020, 11:56:57 AM9/26/20
to

maitre d'hotel
1530s, "head domestic, master or superintendent of the table in a mansion," from French maître d'hôtel, literally "house-master," from Old French maistre "master; skilled worker, educator" (12c.), from Latin magistrum (see magistrate). Sense of "hotel manager, manager of a dining room" is from 1890. Shortened form maître d' is attested from 1942
---

Maître d' <= ma(gi)ster/manager of <= mother/d'mestic? (House wife/manager//home-maker home berth/set-up (ribs & cladding, branches & broadleaves, poles & stitched hides).

Daud Deden

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Sep 26, 2020, 12:19:48 PM9/26/20
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On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > >
> > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > >
> > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > eventually.
> > >
> > > You do say the strangest things.
> >
> > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
>
> Of course not. Do you?

Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved lived in domed huts, and almost certainly used coracles. I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley, if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written down and passed along.



> > > > > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > > > > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > > > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > > > > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > > > > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > > > > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > > > > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > > > > an actual vessel?
> > > > Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> > > > royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.
> >
> > I think it was 10,000 rather.
> >
> > > Perhaps not. Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.

Does that distinguish between royal and nonroyal numeration?

> > I was merely saying that royalty may have had different measures than common folk, cf royal cubit. Ziusudrah-Atrahasis was royal.
>
> Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.

Does that distinguish between common and royal numeration?

> > > > > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > > > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > > > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > > > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > > > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > > > > wheel).
> > > > > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
> > > > About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.
> > > You do say the strangest things.
> >
> > As do you.
> >
> > Ape bowl nests & potters wheels are not boats, coracles are the oldest boats.
>
> Is that how the settlers of Australia got to the continent 40,000 -
> 50,000 years B.P.?

Unknown, dugout canoes were brought to Australia by much later Austronesions.
Probably bark canoes of Australia came from Papua, derived from bowl boats.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 26, 2020, 12:46:09 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

> > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > eventually.
> > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > Of course not. Do you?
>
> Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> lived in domed huts,

evidence?

> and almost certainly used coracles.

evidence?

> I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> down and passed along.

so what?
evidence?

Daud Deden

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Sep 26, 2020, 4:44:27 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > Of course not. Do you?
> >
> > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > lived in domed huts,
> evidence?

I can't find my old source, but this shows it:

“The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. The Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/

> > and almost certainly used coracles.
> evidence?

Cf Eridu "sailboat" without keel or actual mast

> > I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> > if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> > down and passed along.
> so what?

So one would expect to find that Noah's ark resembled later multi-tiered wind-powered wooden ships of planed wood rather than more accurate reed rafts & bowl boats.

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Sep 26, 2020, 5:06:01 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:44:27 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > > Of course not. Do you?
> > >
> > > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > > lived in domed huts,
> > evidence?
>
> I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
>
> “The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. The Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/

NB No reed huts.

> > > and almost certainly used coracles.
> > evidence?
>
> Cf Eridu "sailboat" without keel or actual mast

So what? (whatever "Eridu" means to you)

> > > I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> > > if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> > > down and passed along.
> > so what?
>
> So one would expect to find that Noah's ark resembled later multi-tiered wind-powered wooden ships of planed wood rather than more accurate reed rafts & bowl boats.

Where did you get _that_ from? Have you ever read the scriptural
description of Noah's Ark?

Daud Deden

unread,
Sep 26, 2020, 6:45:53 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:44:27 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > > > Of course not. Do you?
> > > >
> > > > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > > > lived in domed huts,
> > > evidence?
> >
> > I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
> >
> > “The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. T he Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/
> NB No reed huts.

Reed huts were used around the marshes, having rounded roofs .where bamboo-like river reeds grew. The huts there were endomed with vertical walls

> > > > and almost certainly used coracles.
> > > evidence?
> >
> > Cf Eridu "sailboat" without keel or actual mast
> So what? (whatever "Eridu" means to you)

Eridu was an early city of SUMER. EVIDENCE OF CORACLES.
> > > > > Try reading the narratives, both of them. AN ARK IS A BASKET/CONTAINER, NOT A SAILING VESSEL. (NEW GG KEYBOARD PROBLEMS)

Daud Deden

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Sep 27, 2020, 6:57:22 AM9/27/20
to
Australia ~40ka had ribbed bark canoes & rafts, no dugouts, no coracles. Coracles north of Kra ithsmus, Thailand, no sign of them south, only bamboo rafts in Malaya.
Ribbed coracles -> ribbed bark canoes on Coral Sea? Rafts too poor for open seas.

> > > > > > > Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.
> > > > > > > > > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
> > > > > > > > You can't build a boat from coiled clay.
> > > > > > > Why not? Concrete boats exist, why not burnt clay boats? How many boats have you built? I've built one.
> > > > > > From concrete, or from reeds?
> > > > > > > > You can't build a boat the
> > > > > > > > size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.
> > > > > > > One probably could, though again, it was an ark, not a sailing vessel. Have you seen a nuclear aircraft carrier or panamax oil freighter? The cruise ships here in Miami are about 1/4 mile long, they can be extended.
> > > > > > "an ark, not a sailing vessel"???

Right, just trying to point out the sizes today.

> > > > > > Try reading the narratives, both of them.

An ark is a waterproof basket/container, not propulsive.

Daud Deden

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Sep 27, 2020, 9:50:10 AM9/27/20
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Sago processing in Papua



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me (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves change)
9:47 AM (less than a minute ago)
https://youtu.be/BpMIaCmwhFQ

Sago scoop, pancake flatbread torta pudding starch good with egg or larva (protein), 1st non-coracle boats from hull/stem mods


Daud Deden

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Sep 30, 2020, 5:17:34 PM9/30/20
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Human nasal sinuses drain the wrong way, why? Most similar to African apes, but drains poorly. Effect on speech, larynx, swallowing, viruses...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSSmJLb468k

at 3 minutes

Orangutans have forward draining sinuses, have only 2 sinuses.
African apes have large drains near top of sinuses, have 4 sinuses.
Humans have small drains near top of sinues, have 4 sinuses.

Arnaud Fournet

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Oct 1, 2020, 1:21:20 AM10/1/20
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so, WTF ?

Daud Deden

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Oct 1, 2020, 6:06:40 AM10/1/20
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Unlike other primate mammals, humans & great apes drain maxillary sinuses near the top, which results in poor drainage and clogged sinuses. Why did that evolve? Probably, because sleeping on the back in an ape bowl nest in the forest canopy was safer (against climbing or flying predators) than sleeping exposed on a branch or in a tree fork for those with large bodies. This posture may relate also to the evolution of enlarged laryngeal air sacs in apes. Humans switched to forest floor roundshield dome huts, but still continued to sleep on the back and the sides, so the top drainage was still selected for.

It would be interesting to know if sea otters, which sleep on their backs afloat, have top-draining sinuses.

All this is relevant to vocalization, breathing, sickness etc.

Arnaud Fournet

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Oct 1, 2020, 7:39:13 AM10/1/20
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=> BS...

Daud Deden

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Oct 1, 2020, 7:01:15 PM10/1/20
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Tacadac, you aren't a biologist. Go back to your crayons.

Daud Deden

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Oct 3, 2020, 1:11:07 AM10/3/20
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Emigrate: leave from, migrate out of
Epigraphic: write on

Exo.migrare: out.go pergi keluar
Epi.graphein: on.scrib.ble en.grave

I don't find anything deeper.



Arnaud Fournet

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Oct 3, 2020, 7:36:10 AM10/3/20
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Dig your own ass.

Daud Deden

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Oct 3, 2020, 12:10:33 PM10/3/20
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-ship
word-forming element meaning "quality, condition; act, power, skill; office, position; relation between," Middle English -schipe, from Old English -sciepe, Anglian -scip "state, condition of being," from Proto-Germanic *-skepi- (cognates: Old Norse -skapr, Danish -skab, Old Frisian -skip, Dutch -schap, German -schaft), from *skap- "to create, ordain, appoint," from PIE root *(s)kep-, forming words meaning "to cut, scrape, hack" (see shape (v.)).

s.haft s.hav.e x.yambua.(tlachyah)
land-scraper land-shaver lawn-siev.er (possible link to buffalo patties?)
lawnskeeper

-ship
word-forming element meaning "quality, condition; act, power, skill; office, position; relation between," Middle English -schipe, from Old English -sciepe, Anglian -scip "state, condition of being," from Proto-Germanic *-skepi- (cognates: Old Norse -skapr, Danish -skab, Old Frisian -skip, Dutch -schap, German -schaft), from *skap- "to create, ordain, appoint," from PIE root *(s)kep-, forming words meaning "to cut, scrape, hack" (see shape (v.)).

s.haft s.hav.e x.yambua.(tlachyah)
land-scraper land-shaver lawn-siev.er (possible link to buffalo patties?)
lawnskeeper

Daud Deden

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Oct 3, 2020, 1:51:16 PM10/3/20
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https://www.academia.edu/954013/Is_the_syllable_frame_stored?email_work_card=thumbnail


This target article is concerned with the evolution of speech production as action.
The question is, how did we evolve the capacity to do what we do with the speech production apparatus when we speak? There will be little concern with the evolution of the conceptual structure that underlies speech actions. Instead, the focus will be on a capability typ-ically taken for granted in current linguistic theory and cognitive science: How do we explain our remarkable capacity for making the serially organized complexes of movements that constitute speech?The basic thesis is quite simple. Human speech differs from vocal communication of other mammals in that wealone superimpose a continual rhythmic alternation between an open and closed mouth (a frame) on the sound produc-tion process. The likelihood that this cyclicity, associated with the syllable, evolved from ingestive cyclicities (e.g., chewing)is indicated by the fact that much of the new development of the brain for speech purposes occurred in and around Broca’s area, in a frontal perisylvian region basic to the control of in-gestive movements in mammals. An evolutionary route from ingestive cyclicities to speech is suggested by the existence of a putative intermediate form present in many other higher primates, namely, visuofacial communicative cyclicities such as lipsmacks, tonguesmacks, and teeth chatters. The modifi-cation of the frontal perisylvian region leading to syllable pro-duction presumably made its other ingestion-related capa-bilities available for use in modulation of the basic cycle in the form of different consonants and vowels content. More generally, it is suggested that the control of speech produc-tion evolved by descent with modification within two generalpurpose primate cortical motor control systems, a medial sys-tem, associated with vocalization control in all primates, and a lateral system, including Broca’s area, that has the neces-sary emergent vocal learning capacity.In Darwin’s words, evolution is a matter of “descent with modification” (Darwin 1859, p.420). We must therefore accept the constraint noted by Huxley: “The doctrine of continuity is too well established for it to be permissible tome to suppose that any complex natural phenomenon comes into existence suddenly, and without being preceded by simpler modifications” (Huxley 1917, p.236). Conse-quently, the most successful theory of evolution of speech BEHAVIORAL AND BRAIN SCIENCES(1998)
21,
499–546
Printed in the United States of America
©
1998 Cambridge University Press
0140-525X/98 $12.50 499
The frame/content theory of evolution of speech production
Peter F. MacNeilage
Department of Psychology,University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX 78712
Electronic mail:
macne...@mail.utexas.edu
Abstract:
The species-specific organizational property of speech is a continual mouth open-close alternation, the two phases of whichare subject to continual articulatory modulation. The cycle constitutes the syllable, and the open and closed phases are segments – vow-els and consonants, respectively. The fact that segmental serial ordering errors in normal adults obey syllable structure constraints sug-gests that syllabic “frames” and segmental “content” elements are separately controlled in the speech production process. The framesmay derive from cycles of mandibular oscillation present in humans from babbling onset, which are responsible for the open-close al-ternation. These communication-related frames perhaps first evolved when the ingestion-related cyclicities of mandibular oscillation (as-sociated with mastication [chewing] sucking and licking) took on communicative significance as lipsmacks, tonguesmacks, and teeth chat-ters – displays that are prominent in many nonhuman primates. The new role of Broca’s area and its surround in human vocalcommunication may have derived from its evolutionary history as the main cortical center for the control of ingestive processes. Theframe and content components of speech may have subsequently evolved separate realizations within two general purpose primate mo-tor control systems: (1) a motivation-related medial “intrinsic” system, including anterior cingulate cortex and the supplementary motorarea, for self-generated behavior, formerly responsible for ancestral vocalization control and now also responsible for frames, and (2) alateral “extrinsic” system, including Broca’s area and surround, and Wernicke’s area, specialized for response to external input (and there-fore the emergent vocal learning capacity) and more responsible for content

Daud Deden

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Oct 8, 2020, 3:02:19 AM10/8/20
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Tsuris@Yid: troubles, constrictions

Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)

Daud Deden

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Oct 8, 2020, 6:02:29 PM10/8/20
to
On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 3:02:19 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Tsuris@Yid: troubles, constrictions
>
> Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)

-

Marka@Rus: stamp
Tamaga@Mongol: stamp, brand, seal

Ross Clark

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Oct 8, 2020, 6:38:41 PM10/8/20
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Russian marka for a postage stamp is a modern borrowing from German
Marke. The German word, like English "mark" refers to a wide range of
things, apparently generalized from the sense 'boundary marker', from
earlier 'boundary' (English "march"), IE *merg 'boundary', cf. Latin
margo: 'boundary', whence Eng "margin".

Daud Deden

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Oct 8, 2020, 9:00:18 PM10/8/20
to
Thanks, I thought of the German Mark and French Marchand only afterwards.

Still appears to be linked, a mark or brand indicates ownership, as does a boundary, one mobile, the other stationary.

Christian Weisgerber

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Oct 9, 2020, 7:30:08 AM10/9/20
to
On 2020-10-08, Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

> Russian marka for a postage stamp is a modern borrowing from German
> Marke. The German word, like English "mark" refers to a wide range of
> things, apparently generalized from the sense 'boundary marker', from
> earlier 'boundary' (English "march"), IE *merg 'boundary', cf. Latin
> margo: 'boundary', whence Eng "margin".

German "Marke" itself is a 17th century borrowing from French
"marque" from "marquer", which is borrowed from Old Norse and/or
from Italian "marcare", again from Germanic.

German also has direct reflexes (Mark, merken) of the Germanic root.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

Daud Deden

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Oct 9, 2020, 8:39:33 AM10/9/20
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Cap@Mly: a seal, brand, stamp

Stamp/tamp/stomp/step

Marching steps in mechanical rythmic gait, drum

Tracking wild game long preceded the use of stamps & brands on livestock, papyrus, clay tablets

B.oundary/b.order/p.otli/h.oly(owned by god.s)

(B) + own(ership) -> bound
(Gr) + own(d) -> ground-grown-grained
(P) + own(d) -> £, pestle\mortar punch-press (olive, grape, nardoo pita-ru, pizza poundflatbread)




Daud Deden

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Oct 9, 2020, 9:02:13 AM10/9/20
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Tamaga ~ hammer, (s)ta(m)p, tekton

hammer (n.)
Old English hamor "hammer," from Proto-Germanic *hamaraz (source also of Old Saxon hamur, Middle Dutch, Dutch hamer, Old High German hamar, German Hammer). The Old Norse cognate hamarr meant "stone, crag" (it's common in English place names), and suggests an original sense of the Germanic words as "tool with a stone head," which would describe the first hammers. The Germanic words thus could be from a PIE *ka-mer-, with reversal of initial sounds, from PIE *akmen "stone, sharp stone used as a tool" (source also of Old Church Slavonic kamy, Russian kameni "stone"), from root *ak- "be sharp, rise (out) to a point, pierce

Tactile tape touchy tlaca tocha

Tam(a)g(a) to(e) mark stepmark

Endu into

Daud Deden

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Oct 9, 2020, 9:17:08 AM10/9/20
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metate@Azt: pounding stone, mill
: a stone with a concave upper surface used as the lower millstone for grinding grains especially corn

Examples of metate in a Sentence

Back to the grind: Following ancient Maya traditions, chocolate makers in Belize still grind cacao beans with a tool called a metate, made of volcanic stone.
— National Geographic, "Go Loco for Belize Cocoa," 8 Apr. 2019
At the site, four other pieces of pottery were found with a metate, a type of mortar used to ground grain or corn.
— Sarah Gibbens, National Geographic, "Ancient Remains Offer Clues About Early Americans," 1 Sep. 2017

peter2...@gmail.com

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Oct 9, 2020, 10:58:54 AM10/9/20
to
On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:01:15 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:39:13 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Le jeudi 1 octobre 2020 12:06:40 UTC+2, Daud Deden a écrit :

Trivia: Under Arnaud's post in Google Groups, there was an offer, "Translate into English."
And so the software translated the preceding attribution line into the following

On Thursday, October 1, 2020 12:06:40 UTC + 2, Daud Deden wrote:

But it knew better than to tamper with Arnaud's one-liner,
=> BS...
Don't be too hard on him, Daud. After all, linguistics does not require
much knowledge of biology, although professinals DO have to
know about the anatomy of the parts used in speech.

Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
unless he is a troll.


Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos


Daud Deden

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Oct 9, 2020, 12:44:33 PM10/9/20
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PN, this thread is Re: Paleo-etymology, which is the study of ancient words and their evolution in the human language. You are welcome to participate in this group and this specific subject.

I hope you will refrain from OT behaviour, which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD

Peter T. Daniels

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Oct 9, 2020, 1:02:36 PM10/9/20
to
On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 12:44:33 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 10:58:54 AM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,

Just look at his posting history.

> > unless he is a troll.
> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > University of South Carolina
> > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>
> PN, this thread is Re: Paleo-etymology, which is the study of ancient words and their evolution in the human language. You are welcome to participate in this group and this specific subject.
>
> I hope you will refrain from OT behaviour, which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD

PN, you are free to post whatever you like. DD does not "own" this
thread, and DD has no understanding of linguistics, so he and AF
are a good match. AF has been refreshingly silent for weeks.

Daud Deden

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Oct 9, 2020, 2:30:04 PM10/9/20
to
PD, please do not incite any more foolishness, start a new thread on freedom of speech and preach your message there, not here.

DKleinecke

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Oct 9, 2020, 3:13:43 PM10/9/20
to
DD, as PTD says, you don't own this thread. I rarely read your posts
but if I were to I would feel free to comment. Like this.

Arnaud Fournet

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Oct 9, 2020, 5:20:14 PM10/9/20
to
oh, really, for weeks ??
Time flies by so quickly, I'm amazed.

Arnaud Fournet

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Oct 9, 2020, 5:21:45 PM10/9/20
to
Le vendredi 9 octobre 2020 19:02:36 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 12:44:33 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 10:58:54 AM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
>
> Just look at his posting history.

just look at Senile PTD posting history ...
But avoid wasting too much time on his excrementa.

Daud Deden

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Oct 9, 2020, 10:28:44 PM10/9/20
to
OT comments are not welcome unless headed by "OT". That is merely common courtesy.

On topic comments are always welcome and indeed appreciated by most Sci.Lang participants.

Feel free to start a new thread anytime, 'Thread ownership' might be a good topic to discuss there?

DKleinecke

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Oct 10, 2020, 12:38:31 AM10/10/20
to
I disagree with all your points. Including your concept of "thread
ownership".

Daud Deden

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Oct 10, 2020, 2:25:45 AM10/10/20
to
Which is why I tend to ignore your posts, as I am far more interested in Paleo-etymology than I am in your opinions about my opinions.

Daud Deden

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Oct 10, 2020, 2:30:27 AM10/10/20
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Metate@Azt: pound/groundstone, mortar
Petat(e/l)@Azt: flat mat, straw mat
Tatami@Jpn: flat mat, straw floor mat

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 10, 2020, 4:11:06 AM10/10/20
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Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:21:58 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<na...@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
In Dutch we have merk (brand), merkteken (mark), Mark (name), merken
(to notice; to mark) and markeren (to mark, to limit).

Daud Deden

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Oct 10, 2020, 5:32:12 AM10/10/20
to
Edit

Metate@Azt: pound/groundstone, mortar
Petate/petlatl@Azt: flat palm mat
Tatami@Jpn: flat mat, rice-straw floor mat, from tatamu: to fold(?)
Cot@Egl: portable bed
Katil@Mly: bed, mattress

Ross Clark

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Oct 10, 2020, 7:00:18 AM10/10/20
to
Winstedt says katil is from Tamil.
If that's right, and if Eng cot really is from Hindi khāt 'bedstead,
hammock', the two might actually be related.

Daud Deden

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Oct 10, 2020, 8:26:15 AM10/10/20
to
Thanks, that leaves me uncertain about katu : tied, as in katu maram : tied logs = catamaran, since string beds and hammocks were used in India. A different pathway than pounded flat/mat. Matlatl@Azt: net.

Daud Deden

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Oct 11, 2020, 11:15:29 AM10/11/20
to
Clock

late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'

Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock

Jam@Mly: hour

Ross Clark

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Oct 11, 2020, 7:43:41 PM10/11/20
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pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
pound, beat'

> Jam@Mly: hour
>

< Persian, saith Winstedt.

Daud Deden

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Oct 11, 2020, 8:58:07 PM10/11/20
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On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 7:43:41 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> On 12/10/2020 4:15 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > Clock
> >
> > late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
> >
> > Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
>
> pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
> pound, beat'

Thanks. I'd say pukpuk is duplicate cognate with tektek range in Iran, source of stone tools, tekton, hammering.

Daud Deden

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Oct 11, 2020, 9:00:45 PM10/11/20