Re: Paleo-etymology
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António Marques
Sep 18, 2020, 6:17:55 PM9/18/20
to
Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On 19/09/2020 2:07 a.m., António Marques wrote:
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>> On 2020-09-18, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now, if you want to establish that there is a word _cirque_ in english,
>>>
>>> You can find it in medium-size dictionaries:
>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cirque
>>> https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=cirque
>>>
>>
>> You can find many words in Kindle's dictionary, but that doesn't mean
>> anyone actually has passive, much less active, knowledge of them.
>
> It really is an English word, Antonio. I don't understand why you're so
> skeptical. I recognized it, and could have given a rough account of its
> meaning, though I didn't learn it in school. Probably from growing up in
> a fairly mountainous part of the world, having some friends who were
> climbers and hikers, and reading things. In fact, I read it just the
> other day, in Oliver Sacks's autobiographical book _On The Move_. He
> quotes one of his own letters from 1960, when he was traveling across
> Canada, and met a man he calls "the Professor", who took him on some
> excursions into the Rockies:
>
> "The Professor...taught me to recognize glacial cirques and the
> different species of moraine...."
>
> So yes, it's a bit technical, but lots of people know it. What's the
> problem?
I fully believe the lot of you when you say it is indeed an actual english
word. Too many words included in english dictionaries are of questionable
currency and that's what I was getting at. I dare say you and Peter and
maybe the Dowd were the only participants in this thread who knew its
actual meaning rather than assuming it had something to do with circuses
(but that may be another incorrect assumption).
> On 19/09/2020 2:07 a.m., António Marques wrote:
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>>> On 2020-09-18, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Now, if you want to establish that there is a word _cirque_ in english,
>>>
>>> You can find it in medium-size dictionaries:
>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cirque
>>> https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=cirque
>>>
>>
>> You can find many words in Kindle's dictionary, but that doesn't mean
>> anyone actually has passive, much less active, knowledge of them.
>
> It really is an English word, Antonio. I don't understand why you're so
> skeptical. I recognized it, and could have given a rough account of its
> meaning, though I didn't learn it in school. Probably from growing up in
> a fairly mountainous part of the world, having some friends who were
> climbers and hikers, and reading things. In fact, I read it just the
> other day, in Oliver Sacks's autobiographical book _On The Move_. He
> quotes one of his own letters from 1960, when he was traveling across
> Canada, and met a man he calls "the Professor", who took him on some
> excursions into the Rockies:
>
> "The Professor...taught me to recognize glacial cirques and the
> different species of moraine...."
>
> So yes, it's a bit technical, but lots of people know it. What's the
> problem?
I fully believe the lot of you when you say it is indeed an actual english
word. Too many words included in english dictionaries are of questionable
currency and that's what I was getting at. I dare say you and Peter and
maybe the Dowd were the only participants in this thread who knew its
actual meaning rather than assuming it had something to do with circuses
(but that may be another incorrect assumption).
DKleinecke
Sep 18, 2020, 8:45:05 PM9/18/20
to
António Marques
Sep 18, 2020, 11:15:36 PM9/18/20
to
into -que!!
When I said 'this thread' I did mean this specific subthread, in which I
don't think you had been a participant yet.
Yet the word is proving to be widely known. That does go against my
expectation.
Daud Deden
Sep 19, 2020, 12:31:54 AM9/19/20
to
Kerèk@Hungarian: wheel
Kolo@Polish: wheel
Okrag@Polish: circle
Gulu@Chn: circle, dome
Guilin@Chn: wheel
Gyre@Grk
DKleinecke
Sep 19, 2020, 1:54:31 AM9/19/20
to
I have opted out of following sub-threads and only see posts to
threads in acquisition order. All sub-threads mixed together.
Daud Deden
Sep 19, 2020, 4:14:08 AM9/19/20
to
Daud Deden
Sep 19, 2020, 4:22:15 AM9/19/20
to
On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 6:17:55 PM UTC-4, António Marques wrote:
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 19, 2020, 10:11:29 AM9/19/20
to
On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 4:22:15 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).
Alternatively, you could try to find out what the French word "cirque"
> Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).
meant to the geologist who first gave that name to the formation.
Nothing to do with coracles or curraghs.
So far, no one has disrupted GG by replying to a message earlier than
this one. Let it remain so!
Daud Deden
Sep 19, 2020, 4:29:48 PM9/19/20
to
On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 10:11:29 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 4:22:15 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).
>
> Alternatively, you could try to find out what the French word "cirque"
> meant to the geologist who first gave that name to the formation.
>
> Nothing to do with coracles or curraghs.
They tend to be circular and bowl shaped.
> On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 4:22:15 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > Being that a glacial cirque is a bowl-like basin in a valley, I would expect it to be etymologically related to a bowl-boat coracle (Welsh) or curragh (Irish).
>
> Alternatively, you could try to find out what the French word "cirque"
> meant to the geologist who first gave that name to the formation.
>
> Nothing to do with coracles or curraghs.
> So far, no one has disrupted GG by replying to a message earlier than
> this one. Let it remain so!
Daud Deden
Sep 20, 2020, 10:24:55 PM9/20/20
to
Daud Deden
Sep 25, 2020, 8:03:17 AM9/25/20
to
Re. Ark stories
I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle with some specializations for size and cargo, and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's wheel).
https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
Wikipedia Ziusudrah portion
After a missing section in the tablet, we learn that the gods have decided to send a flood to destroy mankind. The god Enki (lord of the underworld sea of fresh water and Sumerian equivalent of Babylonian god Ea) warns Ziusudra, the ruler of Shuruppak, to build a large boat; the passage describing the directions for the boat is also lost. When the tablet resumes, it is describing the flood. A terrible storm raged for seven days, "the huge boat had been tossed about on the great waters," then Utu (Sun) appears and Ziusudra opens a window, prostrates himself, and sacrifices an ox and a sheep. After another break, the text resumes, the flood is apparently over, and Ziusudra is prostrating himself before An (Sky) and Enlil (Lordbreath), who give him "breath eternal" and take him to dwell in Dilmun. The remainder of the poem is lost.[11][failed verification]
The Epic of Ziusudra adds an element at lines 258–261 not found in other versions, that after the river flood[12] "king Ziusudra ... they caused to dwell in the KUR Dilmun, the place where the sun rises". The Sumerian word "KUR" is an ambiguous word. Samuel Noah Kramer states that "its primary meanings is "mountain" is attested by the fact that the sign used for it is actually a pictograph representing a mountain. From the meaning "mountain" developed that of "foreign land," since the mountainous countries bordering Sumer were a constant menace to its people. Kur also came to mean "land" in general".[13]. The last sentence can be translated as "In the mountain of crossing, the mountain of Dilmun, the place where the sun rises" [14].
A Sumerian document known as the Instructions of Shuruppak dated by Kramer to about 2600 BC, refers in a later version to Ziusudra. Kramer stated "Ziusudra had become a venerable figure in literary tradition by the middle of the third millennium B.C.".[15]
Xisuthros Edit
Xisuthros (Ξισουθρος) is a Hellenization of the Sumerian Ziusudra, known from the writings of Berossus, a priest of Bel in Babylon, on whom Alexander Polyhistor relied heavily for information on Mesopotamia. Among the interesting features of this version of the flood myth, are the identification, through interpretatio graeca, of the Sumerian god Enki with the Greek god Cronus, the father of Zeus; and the assertion that the reed boat constructed by Xisuthros survived, at least until Berossus' day, in the "Corcyrean Mountains" of Armenia.
---
Comparison chart of flood heroes:
https://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/flood2/
I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle with some specializations for size and cargo, and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's wheel).
https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
Wikipedia Ziusudrah portion
After a missing section in the tablet, we learn that the gods have decided to send a flood to destroy mankind. The god Enki (lord of the underworld sea of fresh water and Sumerian equivalent of Babylonian god Ea) warns Ziusudra, the ruler of Shuruppak, to build a large boat; the passage describing the directions for the boat is also lost. When the tablet resumes, it is describing the flood. A terrible storm raged for seven days, "the huge boat had been tossed about on the great waters," then Utu (Sun) appears and Ziusudra opens a window, prostrates himself, and sacrifices an ox and a sheep. After another break, the text resumes, the flood is apparently over, and Ziusudra is prostrating himself before An (Sky) and Enlil (Lordbreath), who give him "breath eternal" and take him to dwell in Dilmun. The remainder of the poem is lost.[11][failed verification]
The Epic of Ziusudra adds an element at lines 258–261 not found in other versions, that after the river flood[12] "king Ziusudra ... they caused to dwell in the KUR Dilmun, the place where the sun rises". The Sumerian word "KUR" is an ambiguous word. Samuel Noah Kramer states that "its primary meanings is "mountain" is attested by the fact that the sign used for it is actually a pictograph representing a mountain. From the meaning "mountain" developed that of "foreign land," since the mountainous countries bordering Sumer were a constant menace to its people. Kur also came to mean "land" in general".[13]. The last sentence can be translated as "In the mountain of crossing, the mountain of Dilmun, the place where the sun rises" [14].
A Sumerian document known as the Instructions of Shuruppak dated by Kramer to about 2600 BC, refers in a later version to Ziusudra. Kramer stated "Ziusudra had become a venerable figure in literary tradition by the middle of the third millennium B.C.".[15]
Xisuthros Edit
Xisuthros (Ξισουθρος) is a Hellenization of the Sumerian Ziusudra, known from the writings of Berossus, a priest of Bel in Babylon, on whom Alexander Polyhistor relied heavily for information on Mesopotamia. Among the interesting features of this version of the flood myth, are the identification, through interpretatio graeca, of the Sumerian god Enki with the Greek god Cronus, the father of Zeus; and the assertion that the reed boat constructed by Xisuthros survived, at least until Berossus' day, in the "Corcyrean Mountains" of Armenia.
---
Comparison chart of flood heroes:
https://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/flood2/
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 25, 2020, 9:16:25 AM9/25/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Re. Ark stories
>
> I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
the Genesis ark myth does
> Re. Ark stories
>
> I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
> nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> with some specializations for size and cargo,
Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
vessel?
> and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> wheel).
> https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
Daud Deden
Sep 25, 2020, 1:41:13 PM9/25/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
>
> the Genesis ark myth does
Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations eventually.
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
>
> the Genesis ark myth does
>
> > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
>
> the Akkadian ark myth does
>
> > with some specializations for size and cargo,
>
> no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
>
> Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
> vessel?
Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.
> > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
>
> the Akkadian ark myth does
>
> > with some specializations for size and cargo,
>
> no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
>
> Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
> vessel?
> > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > wheel).
>
> No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 25, 2020, 1:56:53 PM9/25/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > Re. Ark stories
> > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
>
> Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> eventually.
You do say the strangest things.
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > Re. Ark stories
> > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
>
> Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> eventually.
> > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > an actual vessel?
>
> Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.
> > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > wheel).
> > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
>
> About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.
> The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.
Daud Deden
Sep 25, 2020, 10:10:38 PM9/25/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > Re. Ark stories
>
> > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> >
> > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > eventually.
>
> You do say the strangest things.
Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > Re. Ark stories
>
> > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> >
> > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > eventually.
>
> You do say the strangest things.
>
> > > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > > an actual vessel?
> >
> > Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> > royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.
> Perhaps not. Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.
>
> > > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > > wheel).
> > > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
> >
> > About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.
>
> You do say the strangest things.
Ape bowl nests & potters wheels are not boats, coracles are the oldest boats. Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.
> > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
>
> You can't build a boat from coiled clay.
You can't build a boat the
> size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.
Daud Deden
Sep 25, 2020, 10:42:29 PM9/25/20
to
Eridu sailboat?
No deep keel, appears to be a coracle with a floor socket that would fit either a sail mast or a parasol.
https://jayseaarchaeology-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/jayseaarchaeology.wordpress.com/2019/11/08/the-myth-of-mesopotamian-sails/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=16010873073947&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fjayseaarchaeology.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F11%2F08%2Fthe-myth-of-mesopotamian-sails%2F
People of that region also made rafts with stoppered clay pots (and also inflated goat skins) beneath for increased buoyancy.
No deep keel, appears to be a coracle with a floor socket that would fit either a sail mast or a parasol.
https://jayseaarchaeology-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/jayseaarchaeology.wordpress.com/2019/11/08/the-myth-of-mesopotamian-sails/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=16010873073947&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fjayseaarchaeology.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F11%2F08%2Fthe-myth-of-mesopotamian-sails%2F
People of that region also made rafts with stoppered clay pots (and also inflated goat skins) beneath for increased buoyancy.
Daud Deden
Sep 26, 2020, 7:04:44 AM9/26/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
>
> the Genesis ark myth does
>
> > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
>
> the Akkadian ark myth does
>
> > with some specializations for size and cargo,
>
> no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
Have you ever heard of a "king size" bed? A king needs his kingdom & his menagerie, else he's an out-caste. An ark built for a king would not fit in a Welsh fisherman's coracle. Note too, apes construct individual bowl nests, humans construct family-sized domes (Congo) or band-sized domes (Andamans).
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular barge
>
> the Genesis ark myth does
>
> > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
>
> the Akkadian ark myth does
>
> > with some specializations for size and cargo,
>
> no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for an actual
> vessel?
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 26, 2020, 8:56:09 AM9/26/20
to
On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > >
> > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > eventually.
> >
> > You do say the strangest things.
>
> Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
Of course not. Do you?
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > Re. Ark stories
> >
> > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > >
> > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > eventually.
> >
> > You do say the strangest things.
>
> Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
50,000 years B.P.?
> Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.
>
> > > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
> > You can't build a boat from coiled clay.
>
> Why not? Concrete boats exist, why not burnt clay boats? How many boats have you built? I've built one.
> > You can't build a boat the
> > size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.
>
> One probably could, though again, it was an ark, not a sailing vessel. Have you seen a nuclear aircraft carrier or panamax oil freighter? The cruise ships here in Miami are about 1/4 mile long, they can be extended.
Try reading the narratives, both of them.
Daud Deden
Sep 26, 2020, 11:56:57 AM9/26/20
to
maitre d'hotel
1530s, "head domestic, master or superintendent of the table in a mansion," from French maître d'hôtel, literally "house-master," from Old French maistre "master; skilled worker, educator" (12c.), from Latin magistrum (see magistrate). Sense of "hotel manager, manager of a dining room" is from 1890. Shortened form maître d' is attested from 1942
---
Maître d' <= ma(gi)ster/manager of <= mother/d'mestic? (House wife/manager//home-maker home berth/set-up (ribs & cladding, branches & broadleaves, poles & stitched hides).
Daud Deden
Sep 26, 2020, 12:19:48 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > >
> > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > >
> > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > eventually.
> > >
> > > You do say the strangest things.
> >
> > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
>
> Of course not. Do you?
Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved lived in domed huts, and almost certainly used coracles. I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley, if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written down and passed along.
> On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > >
> > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > >
> > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > eventually.
> > >
> > > You do say the strangest things.
> >
> > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
>
> Of course not. Do you?
> > > > > > nor a sailing ship, but a circular coracle
> > > > > the Akkadian ark myth does
> > > > > > with some specializations for size and cargo,
> > > > > no, and you certainly didn't get that from the TV show.
> > > > > Did you notice, incidentally, that Irving pointed out that the boat
> > > > > they built in India was far smaller than the specs given in the tablet,
> > > > > tablet, because the specs given in the tablet are impossible for
> > > > > an actual vessel?
> > > > Atra-hasis ruled for 10 sar or 10k years as did his father, perhaps
> > > > royal measures differed from others by a factor of 1000.
> >
> > I think it was 10,000 rather.
> >
> > > Perhaps not. Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.
> > I was merely saying that royalty may have had different measures than common folk, cf royal cubit. Ziusudrah-Atrahasis was royal.
>
> Learn something about Mesopotamian numeration.
> > > > > > and that it evolved naturally from precedents such as the broad-leafed
> > > > > > interior-lined great ape bowl nest, the exterior-lined coiled broadleaf-
> > > > > > shingled roundshield-dome huts (before domestic hearths and associated
> > > > > > smokeholes/doorways), and also the coil of clay used to build an
> > > > > > earthenware water-pot (before the advent of the fast-spinning potter's
> > > > > > wheel).
> > > > > No doubt great ape bowl huts and potters' wheels are perfectly seaworthy.
> > > > About the same as the 100ma ancestors of whales and dolphins.
> > > You do say the strangest things.
> >
> > As do you.
> >
> > Ape bowl nests & potters wheels are not boats, coracles are the oldest boats.
>
> Is that how the settlers of Australia got to the continent 40,000 -
> 50,000 years B.P.?
Probably bark canoes of Australia came from Papua, derived from bowl boats.
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 26, 2020, 12:46:09 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > eventually.
> > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > Of course not. Do you?
>
> Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> lived in domed huts,
evidence?
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > eventually.
> > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > Of course not. Do you?
>
> Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> lived in domed huts,
> and almost certainly used coracles.
> I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> down and passed along.
Daud Deden
Sep 26, 2020, 4:44:27 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > Of course not. Do you?
> >
> > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > lived in domed huts,
> evidence?
I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > Of course not. Do you?
> >
> > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > lived in domed huts,
> evidence?
“The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. The Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/
> > and almost certainly used coracles.
> evidence?
> > I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> > if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> > down and passed along.
> so what?
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 26, 2020, 5:06:01 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:44:27 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > > Of course not. Do you?
> > >
> > > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > > lived in domed huts,
> > evidence?
>
> I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
>
> “The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. The Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/
NB No reed huts.
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > > Of course not. Do you?
> > >
> > > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > > lived in domed huts,
> > evidence?
>
> I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
>
> “The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. The Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/
> > > and almost certainly used coracles.
> > evidence?
>
> Cf Eridu "sailboat" without keel or actual mast
> > > I have found no evidence of dome huts or coracles in the Jordan valley,
> > > if they were used there it was long before the Noah story was written
> > > down and passed along.
> > so what?
>
> So one would expect to find that Noah's ark resembled later multi-tiered wind-powered wooden ships of planed wood rather than more accurate reed rafts & bowl boats.
description of Noah's Ark?
Daud Deden
Sep 26, 2020, 6:45:53 PM9/26/20
to
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:44:27 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > > > Of course not. Do you?
> > > >
> > > > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > > > lived in domed huts,
> > > evidence?
> >
> > I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
> >
> > “The Halaf culture also produced a great variety of amulets and stamp seals of geometric design, as well as a range of largely female terracotta figurines that often emphasize the sexual features. Among the best-known Halaf sites are Arpachiyah, Sabi Abyad, and Yarim Tepe, small agricultural villages with distinctive buildings known as tholoi. These rounded domed structures, with or without antechambers, were made of different materials depending on what was available locally: limestone boulders or mud and straw. T he Halaf culture was eventually absorbed into the so-called Ubaid culture, with changes in pottery and building styles." \^/
> On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:44:27 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:46:09 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 12:19:48 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10:10:38 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:56:53 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 1:41:13 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 9:16:25 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, September 25, 2020 at 8:03:17 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > Re. Ark stories
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not rejecting the interpretations offered, I'm just trying to
> > > > > > > > > > establish that historically the ark did not resemble a rectangular
> > > > > > > > > > barge the Genesis ark myth does
> > > > > > > > Hebrews in Babylon were rectangle-oriented, as were most populations
> > > > > > > > eventually.
> > > > > > > You do say the strangest things.
> > > > > > Do you have any evidence the Hebrews during their stay in Babylon lived in dome huts or used coracles?
> > > > > Of course not. Do you?
> > > >
> > > > Correct answer. The people of Sumer BEFORE the royal cities evolved
> > > > lived in domed huts,
> > > evidence?
> >
> > I can't find my old source, but this shows it:
> >
> NB No reed huts.
Reed huts were used around the marshes, having rounded roofs .where bamboo-like river reeds grew. The huts there were endomed with vertical walls
> > > > and almost certainly used coracles.
> > > evidence?
> >
> > Cf Eridu "sailboat" without keel or actual mast
> So what? (whatever "Eridu" means to you)
Daud Deden
Sep 27, 2020, 6:57:22 AM9/27/20
to
Ribbed coracles -> ribbed bark canoes on Coral Sea? Rafts too poor for open seas.
> > > > > > > Please distinguish construction technique from seaworthiness.
> > > > > > > > > The connection is of course a coiled & curved waterproof container. Note that I referred to coiling clay, not spinning it, you may have confused them.
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.claycraft.co.uk/how-to/coiling-for-beginners/
> > > > > > > > You can't build a boat from coiled clay.
> > > > > > > Why not? Concrete boats exist, why not burnt clay boats? How many boats have you built? I've built one.
> > > > > > From concrete, or from reeds?
> > > > > > > > You can't build a boat the
> > > > > > > > size given in the tablet no matter what you're coiling.
> > > > > > > One probably could, though again, it was an ark, not a sailing vessel. Have you seen a nuclear aircraft carrier or panamax oil freighter? The cruise ships here in Miami are about 1/4 mile long, they can be extended.
> > > > > > "an ark, not a sailing vessel"???
> > > > > > Try reading the narratives, both of them.
Daud Deden
Sep 27, 2020, 9:50:10 AM9/27/20
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me (DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves change)
9:47 AM (less than a minute ago)
https://youtu.be/BpMIaCmwhFQ
Sago scoop, pancake flatbread torta pudding starch good with egg or larva (protein), 1st non-coracle boats from hull/stem mods
Daud Deden
Sep 30, 2020, 5:17:34 PM9/30/20
to
Human nasal sinuses drain the wrong way, why? Most similar to African apes, but drains poorly. Effect on speech, larynx, swallowing, viruses...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSSmJLb468k
at 3 minutes
Orangutans have forward draining sinuses, have only 2 sinuses.
African apes have large drains near top of sinuses, have 4 sinuses.
Humans have small drains near top of sinues, have 4 sinuses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSSmJLb468k
at 3 minutes
Orangutans have forward draining sinuses, have only 2 sinuses.
African apes have large drains near top of sinuses, have 4 sinuses.
Humans have small drains near top of sinues, have 4 sinuses.
Arnaud Fournet
Oct 1, 2020, 1:21:20 AM10/1/20
to
Daud Deden
Oct 1, 2020, 6:06:40 AM10/1/20
to
It would be interesting to know if sea otters, which sleep on their backs afloat, have top-draining sinuses.
All this is relevant to vocalization, breathing, sickness etc.
Arnaud Fournet
Oct 1, 2020, 7:39:13 AM10/1/20
to
Daud Deden
Oct 1, 2020, 7:01:15 PM10/1/20
to
Daud Deden
Oct 3, 2020, 1:11:07 AM10/3/20
to
Emigrate: leave from, migrate out of
Epigraphic: write on
Exo.migrare: out.go pergi keluar
Epi.graphein: on.scrib.ble en.grave
I don't find anything deeper.
Epigraphic: write on
Exo.migrare: out.go pergi keluar
Epi.graphein: on.scrib.ble en.grave
I don't find anything deeper.
Arnaud Fournet
Oct 3, 2020, 7:36:10 AM10/3/20
to
Daud Deden
Oct 3, 2020, 12:10:33 PM10/3/20
to
word-forming element meaning "quality, condition; act, power, skill; office, position; relation between," Middle English -schipe, from Old English -sciepe, Anglian -scip "state, condition of being," from Proto-Germanic *-skepi- (cognates: Old Norse -skapr, Danish -skab, Old Frisian -skip, Dutch -schap, German -schaft), from *skap- "to create, ordain, appoint," from PIE root *(s)kep-, forming words meaning "to cut, scrape, hack" (see shape (v.)).
s.haft s.hav.e x.yambua.(tlachyah)
land-scraper land-shaver lawn-siev.er (possible link to buffalo patties?)
lawnskeeper
-ship
word-forming element meaning "quality, condition; act, power, skill; office, position; relation between," Middle English -schipe, from Old English -sciepe, Anglian -scip "state, condition of being," from Proto-Germanic *-skepi- (cognates: Old Norse -skapr, Danish -skab, Old Frisian -skip, Dutch -schap, German -schaft), from *skap- "to create, ordain, appoint," from PIE root *(s)kep-, forming words meaning "to cut, scrape, hack" (see shape (v.)).
s.haft s.hav.e x.yambua.(tlachyah)
land-scraper land-shaver lawn-siev.er (possible link to buffalo patties?)
lawnskeeper
Daud Deden
Oct 3, 2020, 1:51:16 PM10/3/20
to
https://www.academia.edu/954013/Is_the_syllable_frame_stored?email_work_card=thumbnail
This target article is concerned with the evolution of speech production as action.
The question is, how did we evolve the capacity to do what we do with the speech production apparatus when we speak? There will be little concern with the evolution of the conceptual structure that underlies speech actions. Instead, the focus will be on a capability typ-ically taken for granted in current linguistic theory and cognitive science: How do we explain our remarkable capacity for making the serially organized complexes of movements that constitute speech?The basic thesis is quite simple. Human speech differs from vocal communication of other mammals in that wealone superimpose a continual rhythmic alternation between an open and closed mouth (a frame) on the sound produc-tion process. The likelihood that this cyclicity, associated with the syllable, evolved from ingestive cyclicities (e.g., chewing)is indicated by the fact that much of the new development of the brain for speech purposes occurred in and around Broca’s area, in a frontal perisylvian region basic to the control of in-gestive movements in mammals. An evolutionary route from ingestive cyclicities to speech is suggested by the existence of a putative intermediate form present in many other higher primates, namely, visuofacial communicative cyclicities such as lipsmacks, tonguesmacks, and teeth chatters. The modifi-cation of the frontal perisylvian region leading to syllable pro-duction presumably made its other ingestion-related capa-bilities available for use in modulation of the basic cycle in the form of different consonants and vowels content. More generally, it is suggested that the control of speech produc-tion evolved by descent with modification within two generalpurpose primate cortical motor control systems, a medial sys-tem, associated with vocalization control in all primates, and a lateral system, including Broca’s area, that has the neces-sary emergent vocal learning capacity.In Darwin’s words, evolution is a matter of “descent with modification” (Darwin 1859, p.420). We must therefore accept the constraint noted by Huxley: “The doctrine of continuity is too well established for it to be permissible tome to suppose that any complex natural phenomenon comes into existence suddenly, and without being preceded by simpler modifications” (Huxley 1917, p.236). Conse-quently, the most successful theory of evolution of speech BEHAVIORAL AND BRAIN SCIENCES(1998)
21,
499–546
Printed in the United States of America
©
1998 Cambridge University Press
0140-525X/98 $12.50 499
The frame/content theory of evolution of speech production
Peter F. MacNeilage
Department of Psychology,University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX 78712
Electronic mail:
macne...@mail.utexas.edu
Abstract:
The species-specific organizational property of speech is a continual mouth open-close alternation, the two phases of whichare subject to continual articulatory modulation. The cycle constitutes the syllable, and the open and closed phases are segments – vow-els and consonants, respectively. The fact that segmental serial ordering errors in normal adults obey syllable structure constraints sug-gests that syllabic “frames” and segmental “content” elements are separately controlled in the speech production process. The framesmay derive from cycles of mandibular oscillation present in humans from babbling onset, which are responsible for the open-close al-ternation. These communication-related frames perhaps first evolved when the ingestion-related cyclicities of mandibular oscillation (as-sociated with mastication [chewing] sucking and licking) took on communicative significance as lipsmacks, tonguesmacks, and teeth chat-ters – displays that are prominent in many nonhuman primates. The new role of Broca’s area and its surround in human vocalcommunication may have derived from its evolutionary history as the main cortical center for the control of ingestive processes. Theframe and content components of speech may have subsequently evolved separate realizations within two general purpose primate mo-tor control systems: (1) a motivation-related medial “intrinsic” system, including anterior cingulate cortex and the supplementary motorarea, for self-generated behavior, formerly responsible for ancestral vocalization control and now also responsible for frames, and (2) alateral “extrinsic” system, including Broca’s area and surround, and Wernicke’s area, specialized for response to external input (and there-fore the emergent vocal learning capacity) and more responsible for content
Daud Deden
Oct 8, 2020, 3:02:19 AM10/8/20
to
Tsuris@Yid: troubles, constrictions
Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)
Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)
Daud Deden
Oct 8, 2020, 6:02:29 PM10/8/20
to
On Thursday, October 8, 2020 at 3:02:19 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Tsuris@Yid: troubles, constrictions
>
> Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)
-
> Tsuris@Yid: troubles, constrictions
>
> Tsaros (or tsarot in Modern Hebrew) is the plural form of tsar “troubles,” as used by King David in Psalms, “The troubles (tsaros) of my heart have increased; deliver me from my straits.”3 (from Chabad.org)
Marka@Rus: stamp
Tamaga@Mongol: stamp, brand, seal
Ross Clark
Oct 8, 2020, 6:38:41 PM10/8/20
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Marke. The German word, like English "mark" refers to a wide range of
things, apparently generalized from the sense 'boundary marker', from
earlier 'boundary' (English "march"), IE *merg 'boundary', cf. Latin
margo: 'boundary', whence Eng "margin".
Daud Deden
Oct 8, 2020, 9:00:18 PM10/8/20
to
Still appears to be linked, a mark or brand indicates ownership, as does a boundary, one mobile, the other stationary.
Christian Weisgerber
Oct 9, 2020, 7:30:08 AM10/9/20
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On 2020-10-08, Ross Clark <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Russian marka for a postage stamp is a modern borrowing from German
> Marke. The German word, like English "mark" refers to a wide range of
> things, apparently generalized from the sense 'boundary marker', from
> earlier 'boundary' (English "march"), IE *merg 'boundary', cf. Latin
> margo: 'boundary', whence Eng "margin".
German "Marke" itself is a 17th century borrowing from French
> Russian marka for a postage stamp is a modern borrowing from German
> Marke. The German word, like English "mark" refers to a wide range of
> things, apparently generalized from the sense 'boundary marker', from
> earlier 'boundary' (English "march"), IE *merg 'boundary', cf. Latin
> margo: 'boundary', whence Eng "margin".
"marque" from "marquer", which is borrowed from Old Norse and/or
from Italian "marcare", again from Germanic.
German also has direct reflexes (Mark, merken) of the Germanic root.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Daud Deden
Oct 9, 2020, 8:39:33 AM10/9/20
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Cap@Mly: a seal, brand, stamp
Stamp/tamp/stomp/step
Marching steps in mechanical rythmic gait, drum
Tracking wild game long preceded the use of stamps & brands on livestock, papyrus, clay tablets
B.oundary/b.order/p.otli/h.oly(owned by god.s)
(B) + own(ership) -> bound
(Gr) + own(d) -> ground-grown-grained
(P) + own(d) -> £, pestle\mortar punch-press (olive, grape, nardoo pita-ru, pizza poundflatbread)
Stamp/tamp/stomp/step
Marching steps in mechanical rythmic gait, drum
Tracking wild game long preceded the use of stamps & brands on livestock, papyrus, clay tablets
B.oundary/b.order/p.otli/h.oly(owned by god.s)
(B) + own(ership) -> bound
(Gr) + own(d) -> ground-grown-grained
(P) + own(d) -> £, pestle\mortar punch-press (olive, grape, nardoo pita-ru, pizza poundflatbread)
Daud Deden
Oct 9, 2020, 9:02:13 AM10/9/20
to
Tamaga ~ hammer, (s)ta(m)p, tekton
hammer (n.)
Old English hamor "hammer," from Proto-Germanic *hamaraz (source also of Old Saxon hamur, Middle Dutch, Dutch hamer, Old High German hamar, German Hammer). The Old Norse cognate hamarr meant "stone, crag" (it's common in English place names), and suggests an original sense of the Germanic words as "tool with a stone head," which would describe the first hammers. The Germanic words thus could be from a PIE *ka-mer-, with reversal of initial sounds, from PIE *akmen "stone, sharp stone used as a tool" (source also of Old Church Slavonic kamy, Russian kameni "stone"), from root *ak- "be sharp, rise (out) to a point, pierce
Tactile tape touchy tlaca tocha
Tam(a)g(a) to(e) mark stepmark
Endu into
hammer (n.)
Old English hamor "hammer," from Proto-Germanic *hamaraz (source also of Old Saxon hamur, Middle Dutch, Dutch hamer, Old High German hamar, German Hammer). The Old Norse cognate hamarr meant "stone, crag" (it's common in English place names), and suggests an original sense of the Germanic words as "tool with a stone head," which would describe the first hammers. The Germanic words thus could be from a PIE *ka-mer-, with reversal of initial sounds, from PIE *akmen "stone, sharp stone used as a tool" (source also of Old Church Slavonic kamy, Russian kameni "stone"), from root *ak- "be sharp, rise (out) to a point, pierce
Tactile tape touchy tlaca tocha
Tam(a)g(a) to(e) mark stepmark
Endu into
Daud Deden
Oct 9, 2020, 9:17:08 AM10/9/20
to
: a stone with a concave upper surface used as the lower millstone for grinding grains especially corn
Examples of metate in a Sentence
Back to the grind: Following ancient Maya traditions, chocolate makers in Belize still grind cacao beans with a tool called a metate, made of volcanic stone.
— National Geographic, "Go Loco for Belize Cocoa," 8 Apr. 2019
At the site, four other pieces of pottery were found with a metate, a type of mortar used to ground grain or corn.
— Sarah Gibbens, National Geographic, "Ancient Remains Offer Clues About Early Americans," 1 Sep. 2017
peter2...@gmail.com
Oct 9, 2020, 10:58:54 AM10/9/20
to
On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:01:15 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:39:13 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Le jeudi 1 octobre 2020 12:06:40 UTC+2, Daud Deden a écrit :
Trivia: Under Arnaud's post in Google Groups, there was an offer, "Translate into English."
> On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 7:39:13 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Le jeudi 1 octobre 2020 12:06:40 UTC+2, Daud Deden a écrit :
And so the software translated the preceding attribution line into the following
On Thursday, October 1, 2020 12:06:40 UTC + 2, Daud Deden wrote:
But it knew better than to tamper with Arnaud's one-liner,
=> BS...
much knowledge of biology, although professinals DO have to
know about the anatomy of the parts used in speech.
Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
unless he is a troll.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Daud Deden
Oct 9, 2020, 12:44:33 PM10/9/20
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I hope you will refrain from OT behaviour, which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD
Peter T. Daniels
Oct 9, 2020, 1:02:36 PM10/9/20
to
On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 12:44:33 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 10:58:54 AM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
Just look at his posting history.
> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 10:58:54 AM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
> > unless he is a troll.
> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > University of South Carolina
> > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>
> PN, this thread is Re: Paleo-etymology, which is the study of ancient words and their evolution in the human language. You are welcome to participate in this group and this specific subject.
>
> I hope you will refrain from OT behaviour, which isn't helpful in solving the prehistory & mystery of the words we share as a species filtered through geo/socio/temporal dialects. DD
thread, and DD has no understanding of linguistics, so he and AF
are a good match. AF has been refreshingly silent for weeks.
Daud Deden
Oct 9, 2020, 2:30:04 PM10/9/20
to
DKleinecke
Oct 9, 2020, 3:13:43 PM10/9/20
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but if I were to I would feel free to comment. Like this.
Arnaud Fournet
Oct 9, 2020, 5:20:14 PM10/9/20
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Time flies by so quickly, I'm amazed.
Arnaud Fournet
Oct 9, 2020, 5:21:45 PM10/9/20
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Le vendredi 9 octobre 2020 19:02:36 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 12:44:33 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 10:58:54 AM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
>
> Just look at his posting history.
just look at Senile PTD posting history ...
> > On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 10:58:54 AM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Did Arnaud claim to be a professional linguist? Somehow, that doesn't seem likely,
>
> Just look at his posting history.
But avoid wasting too much time on his excrementa.
Daud Deden
Oct 9, 2020, 10:28:44 PM10/9/20
to
On topic comments are always welcome and indeed appreciated by most Sci.Lang participants.
Feel free to start a new thread anytime, 'Thread ownership' might be a good topic to discuss there?
DKleinecke
Oct 10, 2020, 12:38:31 AM10/10/20
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ownership".
Daud Deden
Oct 10, 2020, 2:25:45 AM10/10/20
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Daud Deden
Oct 10, 2020, 2:30:27 AM10/10/20
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Petat(e/l)@Azt: flat mat, straw mat
Tatami@Jpn: flat mat, straw floor mat
Ruud Harmsen
Oct 10, 2020, 4:11:06 AM10/10/20
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Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:21:58 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<na...@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
In Dutch we have merk (brand), merkteken (mark), Mark (name), merken
(to notice; to mark) and markeren (to mark, to limit).
<na...@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
(to notice; to mark) and markeren (to mark, to limit).
Daud Deden
Oct 10, 2020, 5:32:12 AM10/10/20
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Metate@Azt: pound/groundstone, mortar
Petate/petlatl@Azt: flat palm mat
Tatami@Jpn: flat mat, rice-straw floor mat, from tatamu: to fold(?)
Cot@Egl: portable bed
Katil@Mly: bed, mattress
Ross Clark
Oct 10, 2020, 7:00:18 AM10/10/20
to
If that's right, and if Eng cot really is from Hindi khāt 'bedstead,
hammock', the two might actually be related.
Daud Deden
Oct 10, 2020, 8:26:15 AM10/10/20
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Daud Deden
Oct 11, 2020, 11:15:29 AM10/11/20
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Clock
late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
Jam@Mly: hour
late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
Jam@Mly: hour
Ross Clark
Oct 11, 2020, 7:43:41 PM10/11/20
to
pound, beat'
> Jam@Mly: hour
>
< Persian, saith Winstedt.
Daud Deden
Oct 11, 2020, 8:58:07 PM10/11/20
to
On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 7:43:41 PM UTC-4, Ross wrote:
> On 12/10/2020 4:15 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > Clock
> >
> > late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
> >
> > Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
>
> pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
> pound, beat'
Thanks. I'd say pukpuk is duplicate cognate with tektek range in Iran, source of stone tools, tekton, hammering.
> On 12/10/2020 4:15 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > Clock
> >
> > late Middle English: from Middle Low German and Middle Dutch klocke, based on medieval Latin clocca ‘bell'
> >
> > Pukol@Mly: beat, peal, o'clock
>
> pukul 'hit...strike (the hour)' < PWMP *pukul, cf. PAN *pukpuk 'hammer,
> pound, beat'
Daud Deden
Oct 11, 2020, 9:00:45 PM10/11/20