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Tyrrhenian as para-Kartvelian

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Dan Briggs

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Sep 2, 2016, 1:43:50 AM9/2/16
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Hi!

I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.

Dan Alexe believes he has found a rather substantial amount of simple evidence that Etruscan is related to Kartvelian.

If I'm reading it right, then it wouldn't even be that distantly related either.

His has three kinds of evidence:
1. noun case and number endings: form, order, and scope
2. pronouns
3. shared basic vocabulary.

1. He says that it is a known fact that Kartvelian languages have a tendency to overload the dative, using it for both direct and indirect object, lacking an accusative. That the genitive ending has a tendency to come dangerously close phonologically to the dative (voiceless sibilants). That the ending is tacked on after the pluralizer—and that all of the above are true for Etruscan, in addition the forms being almost exactly the same. Also, the dative is used for time and duration in both sets of languages. He says he has discovered the adverbial case in Etruscan, and can observe it acting on the two (or half) zal/zilaθ/zilaχ, cognate with the Kartvelian cal-/cel-/cil- root for the same.

2. He finds the 1sing. & 3sing. mi & eca phonologically identical in Etruscan and Kartvelian. (Svan eǯa) He finds the 1pl. ni &1pl. possessive identical too. He finds the 2sing. identical, albeit knowing it from only one inscription. He says the menaχe/zinake of the Etruscan inscriptions are not different verbs, but the same verb (for built or gave) with 1sing./2sing. pronominals (benefactives?) prefixed, "as in Kartvelian" and with the same phonology.

3. He finds father, mother, daughter, son, write, moon, sun, young, sacred, musician (dancer), and actor nearly identical between Etruscan and Kartvelian. He finds nominalizing derivational prefixes such as m- in common between the families.

Throughout, he claims to have settled a number of "otherwise puzzling" aspects of Kartvelian incriptions. In my estimation, he never strays too close to the etymological method. *If he is right,* as he says, that these are cases where it is wondered why a certain thing is written a certain way, then I find his argument compelling indeed.

He says that the Etruscan writing system was poorly suited for Etruscan phonology in the case of c and z.

He says that when researchers first probed for an Etruscan-Kartvelian link, Svan wasn't very widely known, and so they found themselves relying on Georgian, which has some innovations that distract from being able to prove anything.

I find his arguments very convincing, but I don't know if he's citing his sources faithfully. Is there anyone in here who has studied Etruscan and Kartvelian (or has studied Etruscan and knows basic Svan)?

https://cabalinkabul.wordpress.com/2015/11/16/a-structural-comparison-of-etruscan-with-the-kartvelian-languages/

Best regards,
Dan

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 2, 2016, 2:40:40 AM9/2/16
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On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 7:43:50 AM UTC+2, Dan Briggs wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.
>
> Dan Alexe believes he has found a rather substantial amount of simple evidence that Etruscan is related to Kartvelian.
>

If you are seriously interested, you may try to contact Douglas G. Kilday,
expert on Etruscan and former member of sci.lang, possibly still active in
one or another group. Did you hear of the new Etruscan stele? Here some links.
Can Dan Alex shed light on the inscription via Kartvelian?

(quote from rogueclassicist in sci.archaeology)

They’re beginning to ‘decipher’ that Etruscan inscription found at Poggio Colla a few months ago:

http://phys.org/news/2016-08-significant-etruscan-discoveries-decades-female.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-08/smu-oot082416.php
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160824135508.htm
http://blog.smu.edu/research/2016/08/24/one-of-the-most-significant-etruscan-discoveries-in-decades-names-female-goddess-uni/
http://www.livescience.com/55907-etruscan-tablet-holds-lost-language.html
http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27488/20160826/discovery-of-uni-goddess-name-found-on-ancient-etruscan-temple-stone.htm
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/08/2016/etruscan-discovery-names-goddess-uni
http://www.archaeology.org/news/4792-160826-etruscan-stele-uni

(unquote)

I myself see a fairly close connection between Etruscan and the Ice Age
lingua franca of shamans and shamanesses I call Magdalenian. An example.
TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, AS means
upward, SA downward, and NOS means mind. SA TYR NOS became Saturnus
Saturn, founder of the golden age in Latium - he who from above SA
overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR and has a mind NOS
of his own. An Etruscan shard wearing the inscription TYRSANOS had been
found in the agora of Athens, TYR SA NOS, he who overcomes in the double
sense of rule and give TYR from above (in downward direction) SA and has
a mind NOS of his own. Saturnus and TYRSANOS would then have been the same
god, worshipped by the Romans and Etruscans respectively.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 2, 2016, 2:47:37 AM9/2/16
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On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 9:40:40 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 7:43:50 AM UTC+2, Dan Briggs wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.
> >
> > Dan Alexe believes he has found a rather substantial amount of simple evidence that Etruscan is related to Kartvelian.
> >
>
> If you are seriously interested, you may try to contact Douglas G. Kilday,
> expert on Etruscan and former member of sci.lang, possibly still active in
> one or another group. Did you hear of the new Etruscan stele? Here some links.
> Can Dan Alex shed light on the inscription via Kartvelian?
>
> (quote from rogueclassicist in sci.archaeology)
>
> They’re beginning to ‘decipher’ that Etruscan inscription found at Poggio Colla a few months ago:
>
> http://phys.org/news/2016-08-significant-etruscan-discoveries-decades-female.html
> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-08/smu-oot082416.php
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160824135508.htm
> http://blog.smu.edu/research/2016/08/24/one-of-the-most-significant-etruscan-discoveries-in-decades-names-female-goddess-uni/
> http://www.livescience.com/55907-etruscan-tablet-holds-lost-language.html
> http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27488/20160826/discovery-of-uni-goddess-name-found-on-ancient-etruscan-temple-stone.htm
> http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/08/2016/etruscan-discovery-names-goddess-uni
> http://www.archaeology.org/news/4792-160826-etruscan-stele-uni
>
> (unquote)
>
> I myself see a fairly close connection between Etruscan and the Ice Age

Disregard this part.

Antonio Marques

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Sep 2, 2016, 6:25:43 AM9/2/16
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Dan Briggs wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.

Try to get the guy at http://paleoglot.blogspot.com interested. I don't
even know if he's still around (I know nothing about him other than he's
difficult but knows things and has a method to deduce others).

(I also have no idea if he knows anything about Kartvelian but I think
he'll be eager to learn what is needed if he sees something in the query.)

Antonio Marques

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Sep 2, 2016, 6:28:55 AM9/2/16
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(NB Yusuf meant the part that he cut out.)


Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 2, 2016, 7:59:29 AM9/2/16
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Yes.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 3, 2016, 3:26:36 AM9/3/16
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> I myself see a fairly close connection between Etruscan and the Ice Age
> lingua franca of shamans and shamanesses I call Magdalenian. An example.
> TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, AS means
> upward, SA downward, and NOS means mind. SA TYR NOS became Saturnus
> Saturn, founder of the golden age in Latium - he who from above SA
> overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR and has a mind NOS
> of his own. An Etruscan shard wearing the inscription TYRSANOS had been
> found in the agora of Athens, TYR SA NOS, he who overcomes in the double
> sense of rule and give TYR from above (in downward direction) SA and has
> a mind NOS of his own. Saturnus and TYRSANOS would then have been the same
> god, worshipped by the Romans and Etruscans respectively.

I wish Dan Alexe good luck with the Kartvelian approach, and can perhaps
give him some support from my side - if Kartvelian and Armenian should
have had a common ancestor 9,000 years ago. Here an ultra-concise version
(by courtesy of the disregarder who makes me go on; leaving out some
conjunctives, you may add them at your own expense ;-)

The Etruscans may have been the autochthonous population of Etruria
(Dionysos of Halikarnassos), heirs of the Villanove culture (mainstream
archaeology), absorbing numerous migrants from northern Europe
(mitochondrial DNA), and were formed by a relatively small but influential
tribe that came from Armenia (me, 2008) via Lydia shortly after the end
of the Trojan war (Herodotus).

AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and light RAA with a mind NOS, would have been
the sky god of the Göbekli Tepe region in southeastern Anatolia and
northern Syria, visualized ex negativo by the big limestone ring on the
Göbekli Tepe

http://www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG

and implored for rain that fills river beds (water symbol snake predominant
on the Göbekli Tepe and in the wider region: snakes heading upward
symbolizing prayers for rain and the smoke of sacrificial fires imploring
rain, snakes heading downward symbolizing falling rain that rewards the
prayers and sacrificial fires, and snakes undulating horizontally
symbolizing rivers and irrigation channels).

A severe drought occurred some 9,500 years ago. It was followed by a heavy
rain that fell for forty days and forty nights (Bible) and swept away
the fertile soil. NOS AAR RAA Noah, he who obeys the mind NOS of the one
of air AAR and light RAA, was an archetypical figure. There were two of them.
One Noah and his tribe followed the Euphrates downward and settled in Sumer,
where they founded Uruk of the cattle enclosure (Erech and the ark in the
Bible), named for AAR RAA CA, he of air AAR and light RAA in the sky CA.
The other Noah and his tribe followed the Euphrates upward and settled in
the region of Yerewan. AAR RAA MAN, he who carries out the will of the one
of air AAR and light RAA with his right hand MAN, accounts for Aramaean,
Araman and Armenia. The sun archer Tir of Armenia in the Bronze Age goes
along with TYRSANOS mentioned on the Etruscan shard from the agora of
Athens, permutation SA TYR NOS Saturnus Saturn, while AAR RAA NOS,
he implored for rain that fills river beds, named the main river of Etruria,
Arnus Arno

AAR RAA NOS A R NuS Arno


Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 3, 2016, 7:18:02 AM9/3/16
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Le vendredi 2 septembre 2016 07:43:50 UTC+2, Dan Briggs a écrit :
> Hi!
>
> I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.
>
> Dan Alexe believes he has found a rather substantial amount of simple evidence that Etruscan is related to Kartvelian.
>
[...]

> He says that when researchers first probed for an Etruscan-Kartvelian link, Svan wasn't very widely known, and so they found themselves relying on Georgian, which has some innovations that distract from being able to prove anything.
>
> I find his arguments very convincing, but I don't know if he's citing his sources faithfully. Is there anyone in here who has studied Etruscan and Kartvelian (or has studied Etruscan and knows basic Svan)?
>
> https://cabalinkabul.wordpress.com/2015/11/16/a-structural-comparison-of-etruscan-with-the-kartvelian-languages/
>
> Best regards,
> Dan

I used to be quite sceptical about ideas that Etruscan would not be autochthonous in Italy.
Now, I think that Etruscan contains Hurro-Urartian material, quite extensively. It's then possible that Etruscan indeed came from the Near East, possibly from Cyprus.
Some sentences in Etruscan easily translate into Hurrian. One is:
ci clenar acanasa lupu
three kids having begotten (s)he died

ci = Hurrian kig three
clen-ar- = Hurrian hani "child", with initial cluster simplication and uvular *g > h in Hurrian
acan- = ag "to bring, lead"
-asa = Hurrian usa past active participle
lupu = ullil-ub "to die"
the ending ub(i) in the archaic past tense

As a rule Etruscan devoices consonants.
ag- > ac
ub- > upu

On the whole, Etruscan seems to be a mixture of phonetically evolved Hurrian with a number of lexical borrowings from Italic.
I don't think it's close to Kartvelian.

As regards *g > h in Hurrian, you can also compare Tagès = Hurrian tahe "man".
A.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 3, 2016, 7:50:45 AM9/3/16
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On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:26:36 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:


Ignore.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 3, 2016, 8:50:06 AM9/3/16
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On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 7:18:02 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:

> I used to be quite sceptical about ideas that Etruscan would not be autochthonous in Italy.
> Now, I think that Etruscan contains Hurro-Urartian material, quite extensively. It's then possible that Etruscan indeed came from the Near East, possibly from Cyprus.
> Some sentences in Etruscan easily translate into Hurrian. One is:
> ci clenar acanasa lupu
> three kids having begotten (s)he died
>
> ci = Hurrian kig three
> clen-ar- = Hurrian hani "child", with initial cluster simplication and uvular *g > h in Hurrian

That can be strictly graphic. Cuneiform had no provision for uvulars
so they would have to be written with the <x> (h-rocker) signs.
Hebrew /G/ survived at least into the 3rd c BCE (as shown by Greek
transcriptions) but
was written with <`ayin> for centuries because Phoenician had
lost the sound long before and didn't keep the letter for it.

> acan- = ag "to bring, lead"
> -asa = Hurrian usa past active participle
> lupu = ullil-ub "to die"
> the ending ub(i) in the archaic past tense
>
> As a rule Etruscan devoices consonants.
> ag- > ac
> ub- > upu

"As a rule" in English means 'usually'. That is not the case; you mean
"always." The Etruscan abedecaries include the letters B, C(amma),
D, O but none are used in the Etruscan language: it had no phonemic
voiced stops.

Italo

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Sep 3, 2016, 2:13:42 PM9/3/16
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Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:

>
> As regards *g > h in Hurrian, you can also compare Tagès = Hurrian tahe "man".
> A.

Since Tages appeared from the earth, one could also compare words meaning earth.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+137
e.g. Hittite tekan, genitive taknas








--

b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 3, 2016, 7:45:01 PM9/3/16
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On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:26:36 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > I myself see a fairly close connection between Etruscan and the Ice Age
> > lingua franca of shamans and shamanesses I call Magdalenian. An example.
> > TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, AS means
> > upward, SA downward, and NOS means mind. SA TYR NOS became Saturnus
> > Saturn, founder of the golden age in Latium - he who from above SA
> > overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR and has a mind NOS
> > of his own. An Etruscan shard wearing the inscription TYRSANOS had been
> > found in the agora of Athens, TYR SA NOS, he who overcomes in the double
> > sense of rule and give TYR from above (in downward direction) SA and has
> > a mind NOS of his own. Saturnus and TYRSANOS would then have been the same
> > god, worshipped by the Romans and Etruscans respectively.
>
> I wish Dan Alexe good luck with the Kartvelian approach, and can perhaps
> give him some support from my side - if Kartvelian and Armenian should
> have had a common ancestor 9,000 years ago

You, Franz, don't know a word of either Georgian or Armenian and have no business to pronounce upon either language.

If you want to learn the languages, Helmut Buske Verlag has excellent textbooks for German speakers.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 3, 2016, 7:53:07 PM9/3/16
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On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 9:13:42 PM UTC+3, Italo wrote:
> Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:
>
> >
> > As regards *g > h in Hurrian, you can also compare Tagès = Hurrian tahe "man".
> > A.
>
> Since Tages appeared from the earth, one could also compare words meaning earth.

Do you know Etruscan creation myth? Greek myth has from clay, which
may have been adopted the the Etruscans.

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 4, 2016, 3:24:10 AM9/4/16
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Le samedi 3 septembre 2016 14:50:06 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 7:18:02 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> > I used to be quite sceptical about ideas that Etruscan would not be autochthonous in Italy.
> > Now, I think that Etruscan contains Hurro-Urartian material, quite extensively. It's then possible that Etruscan indeed came from the Near East, possibly from Cyprus.
> > Some sentences in Etruscan easily translate into Hurrian. One is:
> > ci clenar acanasa lupu
> > three kids having begotten (s)he died
> >
> > ci = Hurrian kig three
> > clen-ar- = Hurrian hani "child", with initial cluster simplication and uvular *g > h in Hurrian
>
> That can be strictly graphic. Cuneiform had no provision for uvulars
> so they would have to be written with the <x> (h-rocker) signs.
> Hebrew /G/ survived at least into the 3rd c BCE (as shown by Greek
> transcriptions) but
> was written with <`ayin> for centuries because Phoenician had
> lost the sound long before and didn't keep the letter for it.

It's a sound change in Hurrian, as evidenced by
Akkadian quradu "soldier, hero" > Hurrian huradi
The Hurrian form was reborrowed into Late Babylonian.
A.

>
> > acan- = ag "to bring, lead"
> > -asa = Hurrian usa past active participle
> > lupu = ullil-ub "to die"
> > the ending ub(i) in the archaic past tense
> >
> > As a rule Etruscan devoices consonants.
> > ag- > ac
> > ub- > upu
>
> "As a rule" in English means 'usually'. That is not the case; you mean
> "always." The Etruscan abedecaries include the letters B, C(amma),
> D, O but none are used in the Etruscan language: it had no phonemic
> voiced stops.

yes, they were devoiced at some point in Ancient Etruscan.
A.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 4, 2016, 8:10:10 AM9/4/16
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On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 3:24:10 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> Le samedi 3 septembre 2016 14:50:06 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 7:18:02 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:

> > > acan- = ag "to bring, lead"
> > > -asa = Hurrian usa past active participle
> > > lupu = ullil-ub "to die"
> > > the ending ub(i) in the archaic past tense
> > >
> > > As a rule Etruscan devoices consonants.
> > > ag- > ac
> > > ub- > upu
> >
> > "As a rule" in English means 'usually'. That is not the case; you mean
> > "always." The Etruscan abedecaries include the letters B, C(amma),
> > D, O but none are used in the Etruscan language: it had no phonemic
> > voiced stops.
>
> yes, they were devoiced at some point in Ancient Etruscan.

You can only say "devoiced" if you have some reason to suppose there
was an earlier voiced stage.

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 4, 2016, 8:55:44 AM9/4/16
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they use c (originally [g]) to note /k/, so I suppose they did have the phoneme /g/ originally.
Besides, we have plenty of Greek loanwords into Etruscan, all of them pointing toward devoicing in Etruscan.
A.

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 4, 2016, 9:01:35 AM9/4/16
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Le samedi 3 septembre 2016 20:13:42 UTC+2, Italo a écrit :
> Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:
>
> >
> > As regards *g > h in Hurrian, you can also compare Tagès = Hurrian tahe "man".
> > A.
>
> Since Tages appeared from the earth, one could also compare words meaning earth.
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+137
> e.g. Hittite tekan, genitive taknas

yes, thank you,
this is an interesting idea.
BUT, in Nakh languages, "man" is originally *stag
so things get pretty complicated,
I'm not against a connection between:
PIE *teg^h-om "earth", *g^hdhom-vn- "(hu)man"
Hurrian *tahe "man" < (?) tag-
NAkh *stag- "man"
but this needs some additional comments.
Besides the (u)v(e)lar is not the same.
A.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 5, 2016, 3:04:43 AM9/5/16
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a dozen Etruscan words and a couple of names in the light of Magdalenian
(una, thi, tiur, thevru, ushil, zeri, caper, tupi, leu, mi, netshvis,
Tages, ais, Tinia, TYRSANOS, Arno)

Una 'to flow, (water-)course' may be a strongly polished version of the
generic river formula AD DA naming a river that flows toward AD the sea
while coming from DA hills or mountains, also a trading route or a person
going to one place while coming from another; with a nasal infix in
the river name Indus, in Italian andare 'to go', in Latin unda 'wave'
- losing the D in Etruscan una, while the second DA of AD DA may have
become Etruscan thi 'water'. Proto-Indo-European derives Latin unda from
*wodr- that accounts for English water Hittite watar Lithuanian vanduo ...
This means that also *wodr- goes back to AD DA (or perhaps AD DA REO,
REO meaning river, Greek hydor 'water').

Tiur 'moon' might refer to the moon bull, from TOR for bull in motion,
also present in thevru 'bull'.

More demanding is ushil 'sun' and maybe 'south'. The summer sun horse
of Lascaux was called CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, Spanish caballo 'horse'.
As means upward. AS CA BAL, up with you, (summer) sun horse, rise toward
the south! AS CA BAL ushil ? (I see a main problem of Etruscan in strongly
polished forms.)

Zeri 'bright, clear (sky, weather)' is akin to Serri of the Hurrites,
the Serri bull of the day sky, from TYR for the one who overcomes in the
double sense of rule and give, emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos
Disc, Derk Ohlenroth) Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus, Greek
sky and weather god.

Caper 'coat' has cognates in English cape and cap that somehow capture
body and head, from very ancient *KAPA 'hand, palm, finger, to take,
also bite', with derivatives in way more than one hundred languages
(Merritt Ruhlen et al.).

Tupi 'punishment' evokes DAP for the activity of hands, French tapper
'to knock, beat', suggesting a beating as early punishment. English beat
derives from inverse PAD for the activity of feet, a word of very many
derivatives, among them paw, used by a bear to carry out a blow. DA PAD
David, he delivered out of the paws of the lion and the bear and Goliath.
(In sci.lang I am getting panushed for my wealth in ideas, a verbal beating.)

Leu 'lion' is an easy case, Magdalenian )EI or LEI for an attacking lion,
Swiss Leu for lion.

Another easy case is mi 'I' from the humming Mm that marks presence,
English me French moi (consider also my mine, mon ma mes, mio mia miei mie,
...).

A real challenge is netshvis 'reader of a sheep's liver, divinator'.
Conspicuous features of a liver were seen as divine messages. Along the
margin of the bronze model of a sheep's liver from Piacenza are sixteen
fields that correspond to the sixteen houses of gods and goddesses along
the horizon. I propose NOT PAS netshvis. NOT means knowledge acquired
via the senses, as verb to note or notice, while PAS means everywhere
(in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me - further
subdivisions being the 8 and 16 heavenly sectors of Etruscan religion,
inhabited by deities who spoke via the liver of a sacrificed sheep.

Divination was introduced by the mythical boy Tages. Magdalenian DhAG
means able, good in the sense of able. (Tag-words for earth refer to the
ancient belief that our able ur-ancestors had been born from the earth.)

Ais 'good' may derive from AIS meaning fate, Greek aisa, indicating
deities as the ones who decide on the fate of people, a permutation of
AIS being SAI for life.

Tinia was the supreme Etruscan god, equivalent of the Greek Zeus. His name
might derive from TON for to make oneself heard (inverse of NOT). Among
the derivatives of TON are English tone German Ton 'sound', English din,
also tin as clanging metal (tin pan and sheet). Then there are thunder
German Donner. Tinia may may have made himself heard via thunder, on a par
with Zeus the thunderer.

SA TYR NOS Saturnus Saturn was the founder of the golden age in Latium.
He was mentioned in the form of TYRSANOS on an Etruscan shard found in
the agora of Athens: he overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR
from up above (in downward direction) SA and has a mind NOS of his own.

AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and light RAA with a mind NOS, had been the old
sky god and was implored for rain on the Göbekli Tepe. He became the Hurri
bull of the Hurrites, relegated to the night sky by the new god TYR Serri
in his guise of a bull. AAR RAA NOS implored for rain that fills river beds
would have named the main river of Etruria, Arnus Arno.

The polished forms might indicate a mixed population, basically
autochthonous, absorbing numerous migrants from northern Europe
(mitochondrial DNA), joined before 1 200 BC by an influential tribe
from Anatolia, mountain land of the many river valleys, AD DA being
the generic river formula, DAL meaning dale or valley

AD DA DAL An DA DAL An A DoL Anatolia

(Etruscan words from http://www.etruskisch.de )

Are there cognates of Svan and Etruscan? If so, tell me a few examples
and I shall have a look at them from my vantage point.


Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 5, 2016, 3:18:05 AM9/5/16
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On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 10:04:43 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

>
> a dozen Etruscan words and a couple of names in the light of Magdalenian

Any mention of Magdalenian or any sort of so-called analysis pertaining to
it should be on the "Magdalenian" thread (ideally not even mentioned at all)


Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 5, 2016, 3:53:00 AM9/5/16
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Correction: Ais 'god' later eis ...

By the way, I work in sci.lang, instead of hanging around and claiming
to own a penthouse at the top of the Tower of Truth from where I can
drop verdicts and make the rules for those who have ideas.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 5, 2016, 4:11:36 AM9/5/16
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On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 10:53:00 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

>
> Correction: Ais 'god' later eis ...
>

You have a lot "correct".

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 5, 2016, 8:46:48 AM9/5/16
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They use all of C, K, and Q to write /k/, depending on the following
vowel (CA KE KI QO QU). Nothing to do with *g.

> Besides, we have plenty of Greek loanwords into Etruscan, all of them pointing toward devoicing in Etruscan.

French "plume" [plym] comes into English as "plume" [plum]. Does that
mean that English "has" a "derounding rule"?

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 5, 2016, 8:48:38 AM9/5/16
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On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:53:00 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> By the way, I work in sci.lang,

Wrong. You fantasize. You frequently proclaim that you "dream" your nonsense.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 6, 2016, 2:10:33 AM9/6/16
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On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 2:48:38 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Wrong. You fantasize. You frequently proclaim that you "dream" your nonsense.

Den seinen gibt's der Herr im Schlaf ... If you were interested in modern
neurology you'd know that the brain is most active when we are sleeping
and solves a lot of problems on its own. Deciding is that you organize
your knowledge well. If you stuff your brain with textbook material only,
then the brain has a lot of trouble with artificial separations and
classifications. Learn along ideas and projects of your own and you'll
acquire what I call an organic knowledge and what psychologists call
apperception, and sleep will be your friend.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 6, 2016, 2:22:48 AM9/6/16
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> Tiur 'moon' might refer to the moon bull, from TOR for bull in motion,
> also present in thevru 'bull'.
>
> More demanding is ushil 'sun' and maybe 'south'. The summer sun horse
> of Lascaux was called CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, Spanish caballo 'horse'.
> As means upward. AS CA BAL, up with you, (summer) sun horse, rise toward
> the south! AS CA BAL ushil ? (I see a main problem of Etruscan in strongly
> polished forms.)
>

As for Etruscan tiur 'moon', Dan Alexe gives tivr 'moon' and Svan tovare
tvare as basic element of the moon word. I see them as derivatives of TOR
for bull in motion and reference to the moon bull of old. This word has
derivatives in very many languages (compiled by Saul Levin, testifying
to a universal early language), among them Spanish toro and Latin taurus,
note the inserted -u- as in tiur, or the v in tivr and tovare tvare.

If the moon was named for a bull, the ancient moon bull, then the sun
for the horse, the ancient sun horse, AS CA BAL, up summer sun horse,
AS CA BAL ushil, maybe overformed by the diminutive of -z- 'to shine',
hence the little shining one, with a possible parallel in Svan, as
proposed by Dan Alexe. Overformings were frequent. Classical Paleo-
linguistics can't see behind overformings. Magdalenian can.

CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, name of the summer sun horse, caballus caballo
upward AS
together AS CA BAL, up summer sun horse
in Etruscan as pidgin Magdalenian ushil
overformed by uzi:l, the sun as the little shining one

Next time: Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)


Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 6, 2016, 8:55:41 AM9/6/16
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On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:10:33 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 2:48:38 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > Wrong. You fantasize. You frequently proclaim that you "dream" your nonsense.
>
> Den seinen gibt's der Herr im Schlaf ... If you were interested in modern
> neurology you'd know that the brain is most active when we are sleeping
> and solves a lot of problems on its own. Deciding is that you organize
> your knowledge well. If you stuff your brain with textbook material only,

If you exclude from your brain textbook material -- i.e., facts -- you
have nothing to base your suppositions on.

Mr Kekule dreamed the structure of the benzene ring because his mind
was prepared with a large number of facts that hadn't yet been
brought into coherence.

> then the brain has a lot of trouble with artificial separations and
> classifications. Learn along ideas and projects of your own and you'll
> acquire what I call an organic knowledge and what psychologists call
> apperception, and sleep will be your friend.

I don't know what "learn along" is.

What I know is that I learned a large number of disparate facts about
the world's writing systems and was able to see some overarching principles
in how they work. If I hadn't learned about Sumerian, Chinese,
Mayan, Cherokee, Cree, Vai, Aramaic, Sasanian, Kharosthi, Tibetan,
and Korean, I wouldn't have seen them.

Antonio Marques

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Sep 6, 2016, 11:17:15 AM9/6/16
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And I was going to ask whether they paid him and might there be some
openings sometime.....

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 6, 2016, 6:25:45 PM9/6/16
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The rest of us have other venues where we can work and publish our results. Poor Franz has only sci.lang.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 6, 2016, 9:42:42 PM9/6/16
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You have a lot to "correct".

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 7, 2016, 3:31:09 AM9/7/16
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Khoisan 1 "Magdalenian" 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmr0AE1Qyws

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 7, 2016, 3:51:19 AM9/7/16
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> As for Etruscan tiur 'moon', Dan Alexe gives tivr 'moon' and Svan tovare
> tvare as basic element of the moon word. I see them as derivatives of TOR
> for bull in motion and reference to the moon bull of old. This word has
> derivatives in very many languages (compiled by Saul Levin, testifying
> to a universal early language), among them Spanish toro and Latin taurus,
> note the inserted -u- as in tiur, or the v in tivr and tovare tvare.
>
> If the moon was named for a bull, the ancient moon bull, then the sun
> for the horse, the ancient sun horse, AS CA BAL, up summer sun horse,
> AS CA BAL ushil, maybe overformed by the diminutive of -z- 'to shine',
> hence the little shining one, with a possible parallel in Svan, as
> proposed by Dan Alexe. Overformings were frequent. Classical Paleo-
> linguistics can't see behind overformings. Magdalenian can.
>
> CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, name of the summer sun horse, caballus caballo
> upward AS
> together AS CA BAL, up summer sun horse
> in Etruscan as pidgin Magdalenian ushil
> overformed by uzi:l, the sun as the little shining one
>
> Next time: Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)

Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)

The fire giver PIR GID and the fur giver BIR GID and the fertility giver
BRI GID met on the Göbekli Tepe. It was in the early days, cold and dark.
BRI GID complained: I am freezing. BIR GID gave her a warming fur. But
BRI GID went on complaining: It is so dark. Hereupon PIR GID made a fire
that warmed the three mighty sisters and made their faces shine. Now the
women blew into the flames of the bonfire, making it flare up, and the wind
they caused made a million sparks fly into the sky. BRI GID was delighted:
How pretty they are! And look, they hang in the sky, ornating the heavenly
vault, PIR LIC ....

PIR means fire and LIC means light and luck. BRI GID named the stars
that are specks of light from the fire of PIR GID. LIC became Latin lux
genitive lumen, and PIR LIC pulum in the Magdalenian pidgin called Etruscan

PIR LIC PIR Lux PI(R) Lum pulum 'star'

while a further derivative of LIC may be Etruscan lur naming the rays of
a star.

Next time: Etruscan numbers (taken from an early calendar?)


Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 7, 2016, 4:09:31 AM9/7/16
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On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 10:51:19 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

>
> Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)
>
> The fire giver PIR GID and the fur giver BIR GID and the fertility giver

OMG "fur" again.

You are determined to make yourself obnoxious.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 7, 2016, 4:24:47 AM9/7/16
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> Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)
>
> The fire giver PIR GID and the fur giver BIR GID and the fertility giver
> BRI GID met on the Göbekli Tepe. It was in the early days, cold and dark.
> BRI GID complained: I am freezing. BIR GID gave her a warming fur. But
> BRI GID went on complaining: It is so dark. Hereupon PIR GID made a fire
> that warmed the three mighty sisters and made their faces shine. Now the
> women blew into the flames of the bonfire, making it flare up, and the wind
> they caused made a million sparks fly into the sky. BRI GID was delighted:
> How pretty they are! And look, they hang in the sky, ornating the heavenly
> vault, PIR LIC ....
>
> PIR means fire and LIC means light and luck. BRI GID named the stars
> that are specks of light from the fire of PIR GID. LIC became Latin lux
> genitive lumen, and PIR LIC pulum in the Magdalenian pidgin called Etruscan
>
> PIR LIC PIR Lux PI(R) Lum pulum 'star'
>
> while a further derivative of LIC may be Etruscan lur naming the rays of
> a star.
>
> Next time: Etruscan numbers (taken from an early calendar?)

Etruscan numbers (taken from an early calendar?)

September October November December had once been the months number 7 8 9 10.
A regular year of 365 days and ten months or rather periods may have had

36 37 36 37 36 37 36 37 36 37 days

while 36 double periods of 73 days correspond fairly well to 89 lunations
or synodic months (there are further correspondences of a practical value).

The Etruscans used a decimal number system. Here tentative explanations
of the numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 9 and 10 in the frame of the above calendar
and a regular year of 365 days:

thu 'one' - period number one, beginning with the winter soltice, from
December 21 till January 25 in our modern calendar, honoring the Divine
Hind or Hind Woman who called life into existence. Her name was CER -: I -:
(pronounce the lip lick -: by touching both lips with the tip of the
tongue. Among the many derivatives of -: I -: are articles like English
the (which call the subsequent noun into existence), and possibly also
Etruscan thu 'one' and 'a/an' (a word, an article). Period number one
in the above calendar calls the year into existence

zal 'two' - period number two, 37 days, January 26 till March 3, when the
watery ground SAL is frozen, Italian gelato

ci 'three' - period number three, 36 days, March 4 till April 9, period
of the spring equinox (March 21), honoring the bird goddess of 'Old Europe'
(Marija Gimbutas, Ki Ri Ke given as cross line angle, surviving in Homer's
Kirkae Circe, from the emphatic formula CA AAR RAA CA, she in the sky CA
of air AAR and light RAA, she in the sky CA

mach 'four' - period number four, 37 days, April 9 till May 15, honoring
the bull MUC. The Divine Hind of Altamira called life into existence,
also moon bulls. A beautiful and large hind painted in that cave licks
the horns of a small bison under her

http://www.seshat.ch/home/hind1.JPG

huth 'five' - period number five, 36 days, May 16 till June 20, when arbors
and huts where built in honor of the Divine Hind Woman, from KOD for hut

sha 'six - period number six, 37 days, beginning with the summer solstice,
June 21 till July 27, when the sun (horse) rules the sky, ruler ShA

ciem 'seven' - period number seven, 36 days, July 28 till September 1, ??

eslem 'eight' - period number eight, 37 days, September 2 till October 8,
period of the fall equinox (September 23), ??

thunem 'nine' - period number nine, 36 days, October 9 till November 13,
harvest festival, honoring the Divine Hind Woman and Etruscan fertility
goddess in personalunion

sar 'ten' - period number ten, 37 days, November 14 till December 20,
honoring TYRSANOS mentioned on an Etruscan shard found in the agora of
Athens: he overcomes in the double way of rule and give TYR from above
(in downward direction) SA and has a mind NOS of his own; Roman version
SA TYR NOS Saturnus Saturn, founder of the golden age in Latium. The
Saturnalia were celebrated in later December. Sar may be an emphatic
form of TYR, while TYRSANOS may have been a title of Tinia whose wife
was the fertility goddess Uno. (The pair of them is mentioned on the
newly discovered stele from Poggio Buca. I look forward to a trans-
literation and translation of the long inscription.) Uno became the Roman
Juno, wife of ShA PAD TYR Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove, the ruler ShA
goes (ahead) PAD and overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR,
DhAG PAD TYR Dis pater, byname of Jupiter, the able one DhAG goes (ahead)
PAD and overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR.


Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 7, 2016, 4:34:12 AM9/7/16
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On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:55:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> If you exclude from your brain textbook material -- i.e., facts -- you
> have nothing to base your suppositions on.

If you stuff your mind with textbooks only - did you miss the 'only'?

> Mr Kekule dreamed the structure of the benzene ring because his mind
> was prepared with a large number of facts that hadn't yet been
> brought into coherence.

I don't dream my insights, but when I ponder a problem and sleep over it
and wake up in the morning I sometimes feel that a solution is close,
and then I have to work, beginning to write a chapter, and then ideas
form as if on their own, magical moments, but also a lot of work.

> What I know is that I learned a large number of disparate facts about
> the world's writing systems and was able to see some overarching principles
> in how they work. If I hadn't learned about Sumerian, Chinese,
> Mayan, Cherokee, Cree, Vai, Aramaic, Sasanian, Kharosthi, Tibetan,
> and Korean, I wouldn't have seen them.

Fine, and I studied cave art and rock art and mobile art for more than
four decades, enabling me to formulate my Magdalenian approach to early
language. You told me that archaeology and paintings have nothing to do
with language. That's one of the artificial separations and classifications
you make your brain struggle with.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 7, 2016, 8:24:41 AM9/7/16
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On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 4:34:12 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:55:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > If you exclude from your brain textbook material -- i.e., facts -- you
> > have nothing to base your suppositions on.
>
> If you stuff your mind with textbooks only - did you miss the 'only'?

Then when will you start incorporating facts into your fantasies?

> > Mr Kekule dreamed the structure of the benzene ring because his mind
> > was prepared with a large number of facts that hadn't yet been
> > brought into coherence.
>
> I don't dream my insights, but when I ponder a problem and sleep over it
> and wake up in the morning I sometimes feel that a solution is close,
> and then I have to work, beginning to write a chapter, and then ideas
> form as if on their own, magical moments, but also a lot of work.
>
> > What I know is that I learned a large number of disparate facts about
> > the world's writing systems and was able to see some overarching principles
> > in how they work. If I hadn't learned about Sumerian, Chinese,
> > Mayan, Cherokee, Cree, Vai, Aramaic, Sasanian, Kharosthi, Tibetan,
> > and Korean, I wouldn't have seen them.
>
> Fine, and I studied cave art and rock art and mobile art for more than
> four decades, enabling me to formulate my Magdalenian approach to early
> language. You told me that archaeology and paintings have nothing to do
> with language. That's one of the artificial separations and classifications
> you make your brain struggle with.

You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
(as if it were one single thing) and language.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 7, 2016, 12:22:54 PM9/7/16
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Maybe it's just a sexual fetish Franz has.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 8, 2016, 12:47:02 AM9/8/16
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I strongly suspect that.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 8, 2016, 3:51:06 AM9/8/16
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Concluding hypothesis. Etruscan might be a Magdalenian pidgin of three main
elements: a) language of the autochthonous population of Etruria, heirs of
the Villanova culture; b) migrants from northern Europe, their presence
testified to by mitochondrial DNA; and c) language of a relatively small
but influential tribe from Anatolia arriving in Etruria in around 1 100 BC.

What I realize only now: the calendar periods 1 3 5 9 are female, 4 10 male,
suggesting

female periods 1 3 5 7 9
male periods 2 4 6 8 10

We know this balance from other objects, for example the newly discovered
stele from Poggio Buco, one face dedicated to Tinia, the other to his wife
Uno. One side of Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is dedicated to Adu (Baal),
the other to Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Baal). One side of the
Phaistos Disc represents Elaia's grove at Phigalia, sacred to Demeter in
her guise of Elaia, the other Tiryns, the shining town of Sseyr Zeus.
Makes me wonder about the spiral texts on the two sides of the Etruscan
lead disc from Magliano.

There is now material that can be tested. The winter solstice, New Year,
would have been consecrated to the life giving goddess, Divine Hind or
Hind woman of Magdalenian times. The srping equinox to the goddess in
her bird emanation. And the summer solstice to the sun horse, period
number 6 being male, therefore a stallion. This can already be tested.
Here an impasto chalice from Narce, Lazio

http://cpw.imagenavi.jp/preview/515/51512187_PW36.jpg
(at home I have a better picture and may place it online some day)

The rim of the chalice would symbolize a year. The pair of horse heads
(horses in low position) midwinter, and the pair of horses held by a man
on the other side the sun god and his horses. A drawing I found on the
inner cover of the Catalogue of Etruscan art of the University of
Pennsylvania (google for chalice etruscan impasto - in this order,
in the sector Images, and you can find the drawing from the inner
frontispice of a salisbury book) shows the man holding up his hands
and spreading his fingers, ten fingers, of course, sar 'ten' indicating
TYRSANOS of the calendar period ten. And, as I assumed, the horses are
stallions, confirming that the even numbers are male periods of time.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 8, 2016, 4:23:35 AM9/8/16
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On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> (as if it were one single thing) and language.

All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
I read as SAI for life, while the cave wall symbolizes the sky CA,
so we have SAI CA wherefrom pSAI CA psychae - claiming a second life SAI
in the sky CA for a worthy soul ... The Magdalenian paintings, the most
famous bulls, often in compact rounded forms, impressed Picasso, and me
when I first saw photographs of them near the entrance of the Musée de
l'homme at Paris when I was seventeen years old, learning French with
a classmate from school. The biggest painted animal in the Altamira cave,
however, is a beautiful hind licking the horns of a small bison under her

http://www.seshat.ch/home/hind1.JPG

I interpret her as as the Divine Hind calling life into existence,
also moon bulls, thus creating time, lunations or synodic months,
periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days. Her name
was CER -: I -: (produce the lip lick -: by touching both lips
with the tip of your tongue). CER accounts for Latin cervus French cerf
'stag'; CER -: I -: for the Greek goddess Hera, wife of Zeus, and for
Northwest Proto-Indo-European *kerdeh- 'herd'; -: I -: alone for a call
of Celtic herdsmen that survives in a similar form in the locally famous
lyoba call of herdsmen in the Swiss Canton of Fribourg, then in German
Leben English life, German Liebe English love, in Latin libido 'desire',
Ugaritic dd 'loved one' and Phoenician Dido 'Beloved one', in the female
given name Lily and flower lily, German Laub 'foliage' and Laube 'arbor
(also English lobby), and articles like English the, articles calling
the subsequent noun into existence ...

Apparently the goddess was also responsible for the life of plants. If so,
there should be some evidence in Altamira. And there is! While some bulls
have regular tails in form of 'paintbrushes', others have tails in form
of 'fir twiglets' ...

The Divine Hind as Hind Woman is invisibly present in the midwinter niche
at the rear end of the axial gallery of Lascaux, evoked ex negatio by
the pair of antithetic ibices (identified as emblem of the winter solstice
by Marie E.P. König), the arcs of horns and heads indicating Orion, guise
of the Divine Hind Woman, from ORE EON, she on the beautiful ORE bank or
shore EON of the CA LAC, heavenly CA river or lake LAC overformed by Galaxy,
Milky Way ...

And now those interpretations proved to be most important for Etruscan!
(But I must long have lost you, as you told me several times, and proudly,
that you only read ten lines of a message of mine).

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 8, 2016, 7:39:11 AM9/8/16
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On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 3:51:06 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> Concluding hypothesis. Etruscan might be a Magdalenian pidgin

Oh, dear. He learned a new word but not what it means.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 8, 2016, 7:41:52 AM9/8/16
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On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
>
> All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
> here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
> is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
> I read as SAI for life,

Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.

Even if it signified 'life' in a cave in Spain, there is no reason
to suppose that it also signified 'life' in a cave in China.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 8, 2016, 1:56:36 PM9/8/16
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On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 2:41:52 PM UTC+3, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> > > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
> >
> > All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
> > here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
> > is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
> > I read as SAI for life,
>
> Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
> is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.

Probably Franz has read somewhere that "life" is "chaim" in Hebrew, and thinks that the "ch" should be read as in English. And in his idea of historical phonology, ch and s are more or less the same sound.

Dan Briggs

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Sep 8, 2016, 8:05:29 PM9/8/16
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Welp, in the absence of any Svan scholarship...

http://i.imgur.com/x0MTLck.jpg

It's good to see you all again this September, after so long

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 9, 2016, 2:55:49 AM9/9/16
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Finally a reply from you. Can you tell me the Svan word for horse?
My university library is being renovated, no access to the books
for the time being, and online I found a Svan-Russian dictionary only
which I can't read. Even better would be a list of the Svan words
for the Etruscan words I interpreted in the light of my alternative
approach to early language, but I am happy with the word for horse
as a beginning.

Franz Gnaedinger

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The impasto horses on the rim of the Etruscan chalice from Nerce, Lazio,
confirm the word for sun in the sense of the sun horse AS CA BAL ushil.
The pair of lower horses - only head and neck visible - indicate midwinter,
December 21, New Year, and the pair of upper horses - fully visible -
midsummer, June 21, beginning of the second half of the year, so the sun
horse rises, climbing an ever higher trajectory, and becomes the summer
sun horse named by the Magdalenian formula CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL,
accounting for Latin caballus (etymology unexplained, says my dictionary)
Italian cavallo French cheval Spanish caballo.

The rim of the chalice can be seen as the year, the left semicircle as
the half year from midwinter to midsummer, the sun horse climbing,
and the right semicircle as the half year from midsummer to midwinter,
the sun horse returning backward, looking toward midsummer when it had
its full power.

Another confirmation for AS in context with the Etruscan sun horse comes
from the pair of terracotta stallions from the gable of the temple Ara
delle Regina in Tarquinia, winged horses ready to fly upward.

Upward AS plays a role in further compounds naming the horse. Magdalenian
had PAC for the common horse. The horse of the first Indo-European homeland
on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle of Termez and Kunduz
and Kurgan T'upe, was called PAC AS, horse PAC upward AS, accounting for
Avestan aspa 'horse' and Sanskrit asva 'horse' - small pony-like horses
used for carrying loads up on a hill or a mountain slope. (The horse of
the second IE homeland in the Uralic steppes east of the Rha Volga, and
of the Pontic steppes west of the Rha Volga, was called by a phonetically
similar but semantically different compound, AC PAS, expanse of land with
water AC everywhere in a plain PAS - riding a horse you can get everywhere
PAS in the steppes AC ..., present in *h1ekwos Greek hippos Latin equus,
also in the name of the Gallo-Roman horse goddess Epona, and in Finnish
hevonen 'horse'. PIE derives Avestan aspa and Sanrkit asva from the same
root *h1ekwos, which I contest.) Then there was the winged horse PAC AS AS
Pegasos Pegasus, emphatic horse up up, originally naming the personified
hot summer wind Afghanetz that blows from the Aral Sea along the the Amu
Darya to the Hindukush, and then became the horse of poetry, testifying
(I believe) to an oral epic in that region by the title AD LAS Atlantis,
a vision of the first world as island oriented toward AS the central
world mountain LAS, and what became of the first world when the humans
began mining copper and tin, associated in the same mines in the Alai
Mountains above the Amu Darya, fragments of that epic surviving in the
oldest layer of Greek mythology.

AS PAC aspa asva
PAC AS AS Pegasos Pegasus
AS CA BAL ushil 'sun (horse)'

What is the Svan word for horse? I asked Dan Briggs for that word in
a separate message.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 9, 2016, 3:38:32 AM9/9/16
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SAI belongs to a permutation group of six words, comparative form of DAI
for a protected area given as tectiform signs in cave art, red ocher
dots for SAI and tectiform signs for DAI often associated. The combined
permutation group of DAI and SAI has a dozen words, and is part of the
biggest coherent group of Magdalenian words, in all seventy-two words.
Regarding DAI for a protected area, consider also Daidalos, Minoan
architect. SAI means life, existence, consider for example German Sein
'being, existence'. There might be an onomatopoeic origin of SAI,
from spitting, a healer shaman or shamaness desinfecting the wound of
a patient with spittle that has antiseptic properties, and in the technique
of cave painting so convincingly demonstrated by Michel Lorblanchet:
mix pigments with fat and spittle in your mouth and blow the soft mush
onto the cave wall, thus giving life and existence to the animals and
ideas you like to represent. Neolithic houses in Switzerland have been
decorated with red ocher dots, which I see as a blessing for its dwellers:
may you have many children, new life around you ... The red trefoil on
art from the Indus Valley would have much the same meaning: a long life,
a healthy and happy life, and many children ... Finally the toi toi toi
of actors going onstage imitates a triple spitting meaning good luck
- may I survive my stage fright, may it go well.

The oldest red ocher dots and hand impressions were found in Indochina,
some sixty thousand years old. The sound of spitting is the same in those
parts of the world.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 9, 2016, 4:10:04 AM9/9/16
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Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 9, 2016, 4:10:04 AM9/9/16
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Fri, 9 Sep 2016 00:38:29 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:

>On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 1:41:52 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
>> > > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
>> >
>> > All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
>> > here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
>> > is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
>> > I read as SAI for life,
>>
>> Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
>> is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.
>>
>> Even if it signified 'life' in a cave in Spain, there is no reason
>> to suppose that it also signified 'life' in a cave in China.
>
>SAI belongs to a permutation group of six words, comparative form of DAI
>for a protected area given as tectiform signs in cave art, red ocher
>dots for SAI and tectiform signs for DAI often associated. The combined
>permutation group of DAI and SAI has a dozen words, and is part of the
>biggest coherent group of Magdalenian words, in all seventy-two words.
>Regarding DAI for a protected area, consider also Daidalos, Minoan
>architect. SAI means life, existence, consider for example German Sein
>'being, existence'.

Franz Gnaedinger

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SAI emphatic doubling SAI SAI *h1es *es sein, a case of oscillation within
the verbal morphospace.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 9, 2016, 8:52:02 AM9/9/16
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On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 3:38:32 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 1:41:52 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > > > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> > > > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
> > > All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
> > > here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
> > > is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
> > > I read as SAI for life,
> > Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
> > is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.
> > Even if it signified 'life' in a cave in Spain, there is no reason
> > to suppose that it also signified 'life' in a cave in China.
>
> SAI belongs to a permutation group of six words,

In human language there is no such thing as "permutation group."

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 9, 2016, 8:54:02 AM9/9/16
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On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 4:34:48 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 10:10:04 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Fri, 9 Sep 2016 00:38:29 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
> > <fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
> >
> > >On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 1:41:52 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > >> > On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> > >> > > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
> > >> >
> > >> > All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
> > >> > here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
> > >> > is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
> > >> > I read as SAI for life,
> > >>
> > >> Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
> > >> is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.
> > >>
> > >> Even if it signified 'life' in a cave in Spain, there is no reason
> > >> to suppose that it also signified 'life' in a cave in China.
> > >SAI belongs to a permutation group of six words ... SAI means life, existence, consider for example German Sein 'being, existence'.
> > In PIE, that was es-.
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sein#Etymology_1
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sooth#English
>
> SAI emphatic doubling SAI SAI *h1es *es sein, a case of oscillation within
> the verbal morphospace.

In human language there is no such thing as "oscillation within the
verbal morphospace."

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 9, 2016, 9:05:04 AM9/9/16
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Fri, 9 Sep 2016 01:34:45 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
>> In PIE, that was es-.
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sein#Etymology_1
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sooth#English
>>
>
>SAI emphatic doubling SAI SAI *h1es *es sein, a case of oscillation within
>the verbal morphospace.

"Sein sein" does have a meaning in German, as has Dutch "zijn zijn",
but oscillations they are not. They simply mean: his being, his
existence, or (for masculin or neuter non-person nouns): its being,
its existence.

That the words are the same is a coincidence.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 9, 2016, 9:10:49 AM9/9/16
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>> > In PIE, that was es-.
>> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sein#Etymology_1
>> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sooth#English
>>
>> SAI emphatic doubling SAI SAI *h1es *es sein, a case of oscillation within
>> the verbal morphospace.

Fri, 9 Sep 2016 05:53:59 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>In human language there is no such thing as "oscillation within the
>verbal morphospace."

Like, as they say in Facebook. Or on Facebook, if you like. Like.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 9, 2016, 9:53:10 AM9/9/16
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On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 9:55:49 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:


I would help you if you weren't a crackpot.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 10, 2016, 3:37:28 AM9/10/16
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Promised picture http://www.seshat.ch/home/ushil.jpg below the impasto
chalice from Narce, Lazio, above a drawing, variant of the midsummer group
stallion god stallion

(numbers 5 and 10, ritual union of Uni and Tinia making the land fertile,
prediction regarding the long inscription on the recently discovered stele
from Poggio Buco)

The rim of the impasto chalice from Narce, Lazio, can be seen as year;
the pair of lower horses, only heads and necks visible, as midwinter,
December 21, New Year; and the group on the other side, stallion god
stallion, as midsummer, June 21, beginning of the second half of the year.

The god in the alternative drawing of the midsummer group raises his hands
and spreads his fingers, one hand referring to the five calendar periods
from midwinter to midsummer, 36 37 36 37 36 sum 182 days, the other hand
to the five periods from midsummer to midwinter, 37 36 37 36 37 sum 183
days, together a regular year of 365 days - one horse ascending, upward
AS, the other horse descending, backward, still looking upward AS ...

5 times 5 equals 25, and so does the sum of the numbers of the female
calendar periods 1 3 5 7 9. How many days are in 25 years? Begin with
365 days for one year and add repeatedly 1461 days for four years

365/1 (plus 1461/4) 1820/5 3287/9 4748/13 6209/17 7670/21 9131/25

25 years are practically 9,131 days - 5x5 regular years of 365 days
or 5x5x5 double periods of 73 days or 309 lunations (calculation omitted
here) plus 6 leap days.

The Etruscans believed that their reign will hold for one thousand years
(and were almost right with their prediction). 1,000 years are 40 times
25 years, or 365,240 days (not even two days five hours short of the
exact value).

Conclusion: the number huth 'five' could have played a special role in
the hypothetical religious calendar of the Etruscans, huth from KOD for
tent or hut, here an arbor in honor of Uni as successor of the Divine
Hind or Hind Woman of Magdalenian times; doubled sar 'ten', number of
her husband Tinia, sar an emphatic form of TYR for the one who overcomes
in the double sense of rule and give.

Seems there are five eyelets (a couple of them with rings) under the bowl
of the chalice, while the lower part of the stand is composed of ten pillars
evoking a round temple, perhaps the temple wherein a ritual union of Uni and
Tinia was performed in order to ensure the fertility of the land? enacted
by a priestess of Uni and a priest of Tinia?

If so, the recently discovered stele from Poggia Buco (some fifty kilometers
northwestwest of Narce) dedicated to Uni and Tinia might reveal details of
that ritual union. Predictions are not possible in Paleo-linguistics,
with the one exception when an ancient inscription is discovered. Here
we have such a case. I look forward to the transliteration and translation
of the stele.

By the way, I asked kindly for the horse word in Svan. No answer (apart
from a snotty one). People use sci.lang for power games, uninterested
in a scientific discussion. But no answer is also an answer. I focus on
Etruscan and give up on Svan.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 10, 2016, 3:47:39 AM9/10/16
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SAI SAI has various meanings, emphatic be it so, be it so, also six,
calendar period six in the Late Magdalenian calendar, and sex, hot month
number six dedicated to the the love goddess, in the Julian calendar reform
named for Julius Caesar, Julius July, his family having claimed to descend
from Venus. Looking backward in time instead of studying the rich legacy
of the past, cave art and rock art and mobile art, will lead you astray
forever. And an example of an oscillation. KOD means tent or hut, accounting
for English cot and cottage, shed, and city, also coat ('tent' around the
body) and head (casing of the mind), French château and cité English city,
German Kate 'hut' and Hütte 'hut', numerous derivatives in Sanskrit (wich
I listed up ten years ago), also neighborhood reduced to hood in the
language of hiphop and rap - hood close to the original KOD, the ancient
form nearly regained.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 10, 2016, 12:20:11 PM9/10/16
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Sat, 10 Sep 2016 00:47:35 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>SAI SAI has various meanings, emphatic be it so, be it so, also six,
>calendar period six in the Late Magdalenian calendar, and sex, hot month
>number six dedicated to the the love goddess, [...[

Sex and six are not etymologically connected:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexus#Latin
vs.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/six#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sex#Latin

If you want to know why sex, here is an explanation:
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/proq-sex.htm

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 11, 2016, 6:11:37 AM9/11/16
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Word language and visual language are for me like walking on a pair of legs.
My reading AS CA BAL ushil was prepared by studies of menhir sites, and
of Celtic staters and torques, for example the golden torque of the princess
(monarch) of Vix (Côte-d'Or, between Chalon-sur-Seine and Dijon, not very
far west of Switzerland), from the end of the sixth or beginning of the
fifth century BC

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6x.JPG

and now I find confirmation for AS CA BAL in the impasto chalice from Nacre,
Lazio. In a very fine exhibition of Celtic art, a good decade ago in Berne,
Switzerland, I saw a torque with bulls instead of winged horses, which tells
me that the Stone Age metaphors of the moon bull and sun horse were still
alive in the Iron Age, in Etruscan times.

If anyone could chance upon a parallel in Kartvelian, both in the vocabulary
of a language and in an archaeological finding from the Caucasus, then me.
But I am not even told the Svan word for horse.

Franz Gnaedinger

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On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 6:20:11 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> Sex and six are not etymologically connected:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexus#Latin
> vs.
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/six#Etymology
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sex#Latin
>
> If you want to know why sex, here is an explanation:
> http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/proq-sex.htm
>

Latin words of unknown origin, so how can you not know where a word
comes from and ignore its etymology yet claim to know its etymology?

Franz Gnaedinger

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On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 2:05:29 AM UTC+2, Dan Briggs wrote:
Looked up the link only now, funny, John Travolta as CroMagnon?
But please, again, the Svan word for horse. Dan Alexe relies on grammar,
I on vocabularies, mainly religious words and terms that belong to the
oldest layer of a language, moreover I am an expert on reading visual
language. If anyone can make a connection between Etruscan and Kartvelian,
both the vocabulary of a language and ideas encoded in archaeological
findings, then me. You went to the trouble of making that picture.
Telling me the Svan word for horse would have been more easy.

(Also the erdowanizer of sci.lang knows that word, but he won't tell me,
being what he is.)

Franz Gnaedinger

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On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 2:52:02 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> In human language there is no such thing as "permutation group."

Permutations are good enough for our genes, why not also for an earlier stage
of word language as extended pühenotype? Children love to say words backwards,
inverse forms being the first permutation. People with legastheny change
the place of letters, in my opinion testifying to an earlier stage of word
processing.

PIE follows single words down to the past, whereas Magdalenian starts from
groups of words, permutation groups that filled the verbal morphospace.
(A sad theory that can't come up with a new concept.)

My panusher opened a thread wherein he accuses me of having stolen
the idea of permutations from a Finn. Hölynpöly (wood shavings, metal pane
dust, nonsense). How many times did I say that I took up the alternative
approach to the language of the last Ice Age from Richard Fester? Prof.
Dr. Richard Fester, if you please, professor of geology who got support
from colleagues in linguistic departments. He postulated five ur-words
and recognized them in many permutations.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 11, 2016, 6:39:40 AM9/11/16
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Just found a Svan-English dictionary in the catalogue of my university
library: Svan-English dictionary Chato Gudjedjiani; Mykolas Letas Palmaitis,
1944-; B.G. Hewitt, 1949-1985. The renovated library will reopen near
the end of September. I will look up the dictionary anyway, but you could
tell me right now.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 11, 2016, 8:36:50 AM9/11/16
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On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 6:33:57 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 2:52:02 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > In human language there is no such thing as "permutation group."
>
> Permutations are good enough for our genes, why not also for an earlier stage
> of word language as extended pühenotype?

Language is not "genes."

> Children love to say words backwards,

No child "says words backwards" until they have been taught to spell
words. Do Chinese children "say words backwards" even though their
writing system does not tell them about the internal structure of morphemes?

Do Indian children "say words backwards" according to the aksharas?

> inverse forms being the first permutation. People with legastheny change
> the place of letters, in my opinion testifying to an earlier stage of word
> processing.

You confuse writing with language.

Wouldn't be the first person to do so.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 11, 2016, 1:50:51 PM9/11/16
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Sun, 11 Sep 2016 03:13:08 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
The etymology is known up until Latin for sex, and much further (Proto
IE) for six. That makes it highly likely (but not certain) that sex
and six are unrelated, and that their similarity is a coincidence.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 11, 2016, 1:55:05 PM9/11/16
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Sun, 11 Sep 2016 03:33:56 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:

>On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 2:52:02 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> In human language there is no such thing as "permutation group."
>
>Permutations are good enough for our genes, why not also for an earlier stage
>of word language as extended pühenotype? Children love to say words backwards,
>inverse forms being the first permutation. People with legastheny change
>the place of letters, in my opinion testifying to an earlier stage of word
>processing.

There are no known cases where an attested or reconstructed former
language produced related words by means of sound permutations.

>PIE follows single words down to the past,

That is science.

>whereas Magdalenian starts from groups of words, permutation groups
>that filled the verbal morphospace.

That is fantasy.

Franz Gnaedinger

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On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 7:50:51 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> The etymology is known up until Latin for sex, and much further (Proto
> IE) for six. That makes it highly likely (but not certain) that sex
> and six are unrelated, and that their similarity is a coincidence.
> --

My Latin dictionary says that sexus derives _maybe_ from secus. 'Maybes'
have a place in science. Omitting them makes it more easy for you, but then
it's no longer science.

Franz Gnaedinger

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On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 7:55:05 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> There are no known cases where an attested or reconstructed former
> language produced related words by means of sound permutations.
>
You don't go back far enough. Traces of permutations can still be found
in recent language, for example British metre and meter having related
but different meanings.

> That is science.
>
The ruling paradigm is not science per se, only the ruling paradigm that
can later be modified, relativated, corrected, or replaced.

> That is fantasy.
>
No, a scientific hypothesis requiring fantasy, as all science does.

Franz Gnaedinger

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On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 2:36:50 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Language is not "genes."

Word language is not genes, but, as I said, an extended phenotype of
the human genotype.

> No child "says words backwards" until they have been taught to spell
> words. Do Chinese children "say words backwards" even though their
> writing system does not tell them about the internal structure of morphemes?

We did such word plays. Twins are known for inventing their own language
and playing all sorts of word games without writing down their special
language nobody else understands. For me testifying to an earlier stage
of language development in humans. Marketing firms do the same nowadays
with computers, trying to find names for new products by permuting letters.

> Do Indian children "say words backwards" according to the aksharas?

I don't know, but I know about kabalists who carried out endless permutations
in order to find the Word God created the world with.

> You confuse writing with language.

No, I don't.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 12, 2016, 4:28:34 AM9/12/16
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> Word language and visual language are for me like walking on a pair of legs.
> My reading AS CA BAL ushil was prepared by studies of menhir sites, and
> of Celtic staters and torques, for example the golden torque of the princess
> (monarch) of Vix (Côte-d'Or, between Chalon-sur-Seine and Dijon, not very
> far west of Switzerland), from the end of the sixth or beginning of the
> fifth century BC
>
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir6x.JPG
>
> and now I find confirmation for AS CA BAL in the impasto chalice from Nacre,
> Lazio. In a very fine exhibition of Celtic art, a good decade ago in Berne,
> Switzerland, I saw a torque with bulls instead of winged horses, which tells
> me that the Stone Age metaphors of the moon bull and sun horse were still
> alive in the Iron Age, in Etruscan times.
>
> If anyone could chance upon a parallel in Kartvelian, both in the vocabulary
> of a language and in an archaeological finding from the Caucasus, then me.
> But I am not even told the Svan word for horse.

The hypothetical Etruscan religious calendar of ten periods (36 37 36 37 36
37 36 37 36 37 days, in all 365 days for a regular year) has an interesting
numerical property.

Imagine a circle with an inscribed decagon, a regular polygon of ten sides.
If the side measures 73 units, corresponding to a double period (36 female
days followed by 37 male days), the radius of the circle corresponds to
four lunations or synodic months (one lunation lasting 29 days 12 hours
44 minutes 2.9 seconds; modern average from 1989 AD).

The radius of the circle is then a lunar measurement, and the side of
the inscribed decagon a solar one, the periphery of the decagon 2 regular
solar years (730 days).

Now picture a temple on the ground plan of this decagon (as evoked by
the lower part of the stand of the impasto chalice from Narce), a temple
for the worship of the cosmic union of Uni and Tinia, she in her lunar
and he in his solar aspect ...

Here is how to calculate the decagon in the way of Ancient Egypt and
Mesopotamia. Draw up a number column that requires nothing more than
additions, multiplications by a factor of 5, and halving of numbers

1 1 5
2 6 10
1 3 5
4 8 20
2 4 10
1 2 5
3 7 15
10 22 50
5 11 25
16 36 80
8 18 40
4 9 20
13 29 65
42 94 210
21 47 105
68 152 340
34 76 170
17 38 85
55 123 275
178 398 890
89 199 445
288 644 1440
144 322 720
72 161 360 and so on

side of decagon 18
radius of circumscribing circle 29

side of decagon 55
radius of circumscribing circle 89

side 55 18 sum 73
radius 89 29 sum 118

side 47 13 13 sum 73
radius 76 21 21 sum 118

If the side of a decagon measures 73 units, the radius of the circumscribing
circle measures 118 units, corresponding to four lunations counted in the
Stone Age way

30 29 30 29 sum 118 days

Now the construction of the decagon becomes easy. Use a rope of the length
118 units for the radius of the circle, and a rope of the length 73 units
for the side of the inscribed decagon.

Having no list of Etruscan measures I use the Roman palmus 'palm' of 7.4 cm
for an example: radius of the circle 118 palmi or 873.2 cm, side of the
inscribed decagon 73 palmi or 540.2 cm.

(A temple of astronomical measures would not have been unthinkable,
considering that Ezekiel's vision in the Bible is a heavenly Jerusalem
combined of astronomical cycles, lunation and solar year and Venus year
http://www.seshat.ch/home/calendar.htm )

An imaginary decagon in a round Etruscan tomb, corners marked along the
wall, would have provided time for the beyond.

This an addition to the main test case regarding the long inscription
on the recently discovered Tinia - Uni stele from Poggio Buco.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 12, 2016, 7:17:49 AM9/12/16
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 2:10:22 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 7:55:05 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >
> > There are no known cases where an attested or reconstructed former
> > language produced related words by means of sound permutations.
> >
> You don't go back far enough. Traces of permutations can still be found
> in recent language, for example British metre and meter having related
> but different meanings.

There is no difference in sound between those words: no "permutation."

> > That is science.

That is ignorance.

> The ruling paradigm is not science per se, only the ruling paradigm that
> can later be modified, relativated, corrected, or replaced.
>
> > That is fantasy.
> >
> No, a scientific hypothesis requiring fantasy, as all science does.

Scientific hypotheses require first and foremost _facts_.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 12, 2016, 7:20:02 AM9/12/16
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You, as usual, did not answer the questions and _only_ gave examples
involving the spelling of alphabetically written words.

Clearly you have no idea what "secret twin languages"(a common
phenomenon) are like.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 12, 2016, 10:55:08 AM9/12/16
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Sun, 11 Sep 2016 23:04:26 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:

>On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 7:50:51 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>> The etymology is known up until Latin for sex, and much further (Proto
>> IE) for six. That makes it highly likely (but not certain) that sex
>> and six are unrelated, and that their similarity is a coincidence.
>> --
>
>My Latin dictionary says that sexus derives _maybe_ from secus.

Or seco. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexus

But even if that is true (we'll probably never know for certain), sex
and six are still unrelated, because six had a clear and different
etymology.

>'Maybes'
>have a place in science. Omitting them makes it more easy for you, but then
>it's no longer science.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 13, 2016, 2:28:02 AM9/13/16
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 1:17:49 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Scientific hypotheses require first and foremost _facts_.

Cave art is a fact for me, although a big international anthropological
conference held in Southern Germany in 1899 voted about cave art and then
declared that all of cave art is a fake. Academia locuta, causa finita.
Also rock art and mobile art are facts for me. Also visual language is
a fact for me, although a certain Peter T. Daniels told me that visual
language does not exist. PTD locuta causa finita. But not for me.

As for permutations, a photographer I know has a mild legastheny and says
panaroma instead of panorama. I correct him, and half a minute later he says
again panaroma, switching the 'o' and 'a' in spoken language. Permutations
made sense with early language, words of two and mostly three phonemes,
no longer in a modern language of long words. You issued the sci.lang
dogma that early language was the same as recent language, not to be
discerned from a modern language, and consider this a fact. No, it is
an assumption. I can discern fact from assumption, hypothesis and theory.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 13, 2016, 2:44:14 AM9/13/16
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On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 4:55:08 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> Or seco. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexus
>
> But even if that is true (we'll probably never know for certain), sex
> and six are still unrelated, because six had a clear and different
> etymology.

The Oxford dictionary on the Mac says that sex and six have the same origin.
Are the Oxfordians unscientific? They drive their oxen over the ford just
fine.

Plato believed that the human being originally had been a sphere, but was
then cut in half, in man and woman, and ever since they long for each other.
This might be the origin of sexus 'having been cut apart'. In my opinion
it is an overforming of a way older word doubled in an emphatic compound,
SAI SAI life life. Magdalenian etymology goes deeper.

Did you ever notice that September October November December are wrong
names for the months number 9 10 11 12 in our calendar? Septem 'seven'
till decem 'ten' indicate the months number 7 8 9 10 instead. So there
must have been an older calendar of ten months. I reconstructed such
a calendar in 2006, as I recall, the Late Magdalenian calendar, numerically
the same as the Etruscan religious calendar I am reconstructing now,
but with different names. IAS named the first month, meaning healing,
the cold and harsh long month having caused many illnesses and required
the healing skills of shamans and shamanesses, later named for IAN that
became January, IAN meaning the entrance of a camp, now the entrance of
a year. The calendar names integrate SAP September, OKD Oktober, NOPh
November and DEC December, while the month of the summer solstice was
opposite of IAS, named SAI or doubled SAI SAI, accounting for six, as
it was period number six in the Late Magdalenian calendar, also accounting
for sex, for it was the lovely time of summer, covering the end of June
- midsummer having been a love-in at the menhir site of Yverdon-Clendy in
Western Switzerland - and most of July. Also the name of this month was
changed, adopted by Julius Caesar, hence Julius July, whose family claimed
to have descended from the Roman love goddess Venus. What explanation
do you have for the wrong names of Septmber till December? did you ever
take note of those mistakes? I don't remember that anyone ever asked
this question in sci.lang.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 13, 2016, 3:01:47 AM9/13/16
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If you google for etruscan art in the sector Images you can find this photo
of a goddess with five 'hoods' around her head, in each a flower, the number
five indicating Uni, the flowers Uni as goddess in her floral aspect, goddess
of vegetation, and of general fertility

http://www.canstockphoto.com/ancient-etruscan-art-painted-terracotta-9181241.html

(hope the broken link can be opened)

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 13, 2016, 3:45:04 AM9/13/16
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>On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 4:55:08 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Or seco. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexus
>>
>> But even if that is true (we'll probably never know for certain), sex
>> and six are still unrelated, because six had a clear and different
>> etymology.

Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:44:13 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>The Oxford dictionary on the Mac says that sex and six have the same origin.

Did you look at the Wiktionary entries I linked to?

My 1982 Concise Oxford confirms that sex and six have different
etymologies. So do http://www.collinsdictionary.com and
http://www.merriam-webster.com/ .

>Are the Oxfordians unscientific? They drive their oxen over the ford just
>fine.

Can you quote the etymologies you read in your Oxford, verbatim?

Are they different from what is in:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/sex
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/six ?

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 13, 2016, 3:50:39 AM9/13/16
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Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:44:13 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:

> as
>it was period number six in the Late Magdalenian calendar, also accounting
>for sex, for it was the lovely time of summer,

Folk etymology. Cf. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheurbuik .

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 13, 2016, 3:50:39 AM9/13/16
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Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:44:13 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>Did you ever notice that September October November December are wrong
>names for the months number 9 10 11 12 in our calendar? Septem 'seven'
>till decem 'ten' indicate the months number 7 8 9 10 instead.
[...]
>What explanation
>do you have for the wrong names of Septmber till December? did you ever
>take note of those mistakes?

The Roman year started in March (not so strange, think of Spring and
the tropic of Cancer), not in January. The Jewish still starts in
September/October (in one sense) or March (in another).

http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/proq-sex.htm

>So there must have been an older calendar of ten months.

No. Always 12. Read Wikipedia, I'm sure it's all in there.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 13, 2016, 3:55:39 AM9/13/16
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Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:44:13 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:

>did you ever take note of those mistakes?

"In annos intercalari il habeva duo dies sexte ante martio in le
calendario roman, [...]"

http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/proq-sex.htm

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 13, 2016, 6:35:03 AM9/13/16
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>Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:44:13 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
>>What explanation
>>do you have for the wrong names of Septmber till December? did you ever
>>take note of those mistakes?

You wrote this: http://www.seshat.ch/home/calendar.htm but you were
not aware of the Roman and Jewish calendars that did start in
January??

>The Roman year started in March (not so strange, think of Spring and
>the tropic of Cancer), not in January. The Jewish still starts in
>September/October (in one sense) or March (in another).

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 13, 2016, 6:40:46 AM9/13/16
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Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 13, 2016, 6:45:46 AM9/13/16
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Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:35:36 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Tue, 13 Sep 2016 12:30:21 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>>You wrote this: http://www.seshat.ch/home/calendar.htm but you were
>>not aware of the Roman and Jewish calendars that did
>
>not
>
>>start in January??

So Franz' method is: ignore (in the English sense of 'refuse to look
at' AND the Romance sense of 'not know about') anything that is
already known and has already been invented by mankind, and then fill
in the apparent gaps using his own fantasy.

Science fiction is more interesting because it builds on both.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 13, 2016, 7:30:05 AM9/13/16
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On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 2:28:02 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 1:17:49 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > Scientific hypotheses require first and foremost _facts_.
>
> Cave art is a fact for me,

Cave art exists. Demonstrable connection with any vocables, let
alone language, does not.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 14, 2016, 4:06:19 AM9/14/16
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> If you google for etruscan art in the sector Images you can find this photo
> of a goddess with five 'hoods' around her head, in each a flower, the number
> five indicating Uni, the flowers Uni as goddess in her floral aspect, goddess
> of vegetation, and of general fertility
>
> http://www.canstockphoto.com/ancient-etruscan-art-painted-terracotta-9181241.html
>

In the middle of the rear wall of the beautiful Tomb of Augurs, Tarquinia,
540-520 BC, appears a big red door, painted on the wall, closed, partly
in the ground, reaching the sky, gate to the beyond.

Augurs watched birds and interpreted the way they flew as omina. A pair of
augurs flank the big door, each one standing between three twigs that may
indicate young olive trees, before the left augur a red bird, and perhaps
a falcon before the augur on the right side.

A 'flock' of golden metal fittings on the closed door are painted as tiny
yellow circles or dots: in the middle a vertical line of nine yellow dots
(the white one above them an accidental damage), plus three horizontal
bands of six and six yellow dots, each field of six dots a double line of
three dots each (difficult in words, easy on the eye)

http://www.maravot.com/Etruscan_mural_augurs.gif

Now the yellow dots convey a message via the numbers 3 and 6 and 9 in the
frame of the hypothetical religious Etruscan calendar of ten months.

The number three evokes period 3 of the bird goddess, March 4 till April 9,
spring, the spring equinox in the middle. The number six evokes period 6,
June 21 till July 27, the summer solstice at the beginning. And the number
nine evokes period 9, October 9 till November 13, harvest and a harvest
festival (possibly on a flexible point in time).

Together those numbers convey a message, make a triple promise to a worthy
soul: once you pass the door and reach the beyond, you'll experience eternal
spring and summer and a never ending harvest festival rolled in one ...

A part of the door is belongs to the dark painted ground, possibly indicating
a dark passage between this and the next life, perhaps also eternal darkness
for the soul of an unworthy augur who abused the power he had.

We may assume that a similar fresko decorated a temple, or a school for
aspiring augurs, teaching them a lesson: make a good use of the power
you acquire with the art of divination.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 14, 2016, 9:44:51 AM9/14/16
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On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 12:45:46 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> So Franz' method is: ignore (in the English sense of 'refuse to look
> at' AND the Romance sense of 'not know about') anything that is
> already known and has already been invented by mankind, and then fill
> in the apparent gaps using his own fantasy.
>
> Science fiction is more interesting because it builds on both.

We get fleeting and ever changing impressions from the senses, and then
we connect them in our mind, using partly the inborn knowledge and partly
the knowledge we acquire from the outside, fantasy or imagination being
a precious tool of the mind. Sorry but I prefer my Latin dictionary,
my heavy Webster's Unabridged, and the Oxford Dictionary on my Mac to
what you find on Wikipedia. As for calendars, I rely on the oldest ones
I reconstruct, a pair of calendars from ideograms and paintings in the
Lascaux cave, a calendar of nine periods (too complex to explain here,
but it was the beginning of my Magdalenian adventure), and a complementary
calendar of 13 periods of 28 days, plus one more day, encoded in the
standing rectangle with an additional dot in the middle of the axial
gallery, also found in the first terrazzo building at Nervali Cori (chori)
while the second terrazzo building incorporates the Göbekli Tepe lunisolar
calendar (all calendars explained many times in sci.lang). Also did I
reconstruct the oldest Hebrew calendar from a tablet, years ago in here.
If you wish to discuss calendars, start a separate thread, also if you wish
to discuss the etymology of six and sexus. This thread is about Etruscan
and Kartvelian. For the time being I focus on Etruscan, and from September
26 onward, when my library is open again, I will have a look at Svan.
What do you have to say about Etruscan and Kartvelian? As for science
fiction, I find most of that stuff boring (apart from the original Star
Trek series with Captain Kirk, and Douglas Adams of course), lacking fantasy
and imagination - when they show aliens in a sci-fi movie they just make
them wear medieval costumes. The past is way more exiting. As the philosopher
Ernst Bloch said: Our past is far from being exhausted.


Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 15, 2016, 2:22:14 AM9/15/16
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On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 1:30:05 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Cave art exists. Demonstrable connection with any vocables, let
> alone language, does not.

We consider facts and make connections between them and draw conclusions
from them. A complex web logic leads me from cave art and rock art and
mobile art to words, not a linear mechanism. I tell you the facts I rely on,
the connections I make and conclusions I draw, but I can't in a single
message repeat all I said in the dozen messages before. You may have a sharp
look at what I do and point out when I violate a fact, but please don't sell
me opinion, hypothesis, theory or paradigm for a fact. Not even the most
successful paradigm that relies on very many facts is a fact in itself.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 15, 2016, 2:41:41 AM9/15/16
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Sorry for the typo in my calendar reconstruction: period 3 (p3) has 36 days
(36d) and ends on April 8 (Apr 8) not 9. Here the correct version (hopefully).
Periods of 36 days are female (f) and possible emanations of the fertility
goddess Uni, while periods of 37 days are male (m) and possible emanations
of her husband Tinia

p1 36d f Dec 21 - Jan 25 beginning with New Year on winter solstice
p2 37d m Jan 26 - Mar 3
p3 36d f Mar 4 - Apr 8 spring equinox in the middle
p4 37d m Apr 9 - May 15
p5 36d f May 16 - Jun 20
p6 37d m Jun 21 - Jul 27 beginning with the summer solstice
p7 36d f Jul 28 - Aug 1
p8 37d m Aug 2 - Oct 8 fall equinox on September 23
p9 36d f Oct 9 - Nov 13
p10 37d m Nov 14 - Dec 20 ending on New Year's Eve

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 15, 2016, 7:19:02 AM9/15/16
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On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 2:22:14 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 1:30:05 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > Cave art exists. Demonstrable connection with any vocables, let
> > alone language, does not.
>
> We consider facts and make connections between them and draw conclusions
> from them. A complex web logic leads me from cave art and rock art and
> mobile art to words, not a linear mechanism. I tell you the facts I rely on,
> the connections I make and conclusions I draw, but I can't in a single
> message repeat all I said in the dozen messages before. You may have a sharp

Nothing in your dozen dozen dozen messages offers a single shred of
evidence justifying any one of your imagined vocables.

> look at what I do and point out when I violate a fact, but please don't sell
> me opinion, hypothesis, theory or paradigm for a fact. Not even the most
> successful paradigm that relies on very many facts is a fact in itself.

You have never enunciated a fact about "Magdalenian."

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 16, 2016, 2:36:20 AM9/16/16
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Google company, are you aware that flagging for abuse can be abused as a tool
of mobbing, especially by stalkers of a multiple online identity?

I apologize for a silly mistake. The Oxford Dictionary on the Mac says that
English sex derives from Latin sexus, and six and sex- as in sexennial from
Latin sex 'six'. Both my Webster's Unabridged and Latin dictionary say
that sex derives _perhaps_ (emphasis mine) from Latin secare seco. I derive
sex and six from SAI for life, existence, in the emphatic form of SAI SAI
accounting for *h1es- 'to be' *es- *s- and then Italian tu sei 'you are'
and German sein 'to be' via an oscillation

SAI SAI hAI S he S *h1es- *es- *s- sei sein

SAI SAI SAI S Se S Se x Se x sex(ennial) six

The common origin of sex and six would have been a midsummer 'love-in'
coinciding with period number 6 called SAI SAI in the Late Magdalenian
calendar of ten months, based on the same numerical model as the
hypothetical Etruscan religious calendar but with different names

period 6 called SAI SAI beginning with the summer solstice
period 7 called SAP September (septem 7)
period 8 called OKD October (octo 8)
period 9 called NOPh November (novem 9)
period 10 called DEC December (decem 10) ending before winter solstice

Our Septemebr October November December should properly be called November
December Undecimber Duodecimber = months number 10 11 11 12 respectively.

Period SAI SA began on the summer solstice, June 21 in our calendar,
while I have reasons to assume that midsummer was the time of a 'love-in'
at Yeverdon-Clendy in western Switzerland and probably in wide parts of
Europe. Children begotten in midsummer are born around the spring equinox,
when the harshest part of winter was over, which gave child and mother
a better chance to survive. The spring stone group of the menir site at
Yverdon-Clendy is a charming family, mother baby father

http://www.seshat.ch/home/menhir3z.jpg

Stage 1 of Yverdon-Clendy combined a raven with a map of the region of
the Three Lakes and a midsummer corridor leading on the lake in the axis
of the rising midsummer sun, while stage 2 added the fertility cycles of
plants and animals and humans - a really fascinating menhir site which
led me to Lascaux with the glorious midsummer hall, and Lascaux initiated
my Magdalenian experiment. Consider also the beloved play A Midsummer
Night's Dream. When Julius Caesar reformed the calendar he named period
six for himself, Julius, wherefrom July, however, a connection with the
former midsummer love-in remained, since the family of Julius Caesar
claimed to have descended from the love goddess Venus.



Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 16, 2016, 2:45:15 AM9/16/16
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On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 1:19:02 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Nothing in your dozen dozen dozen messages offers a single shred of
> evidence justifying any one of your imagined vocables.
>
> You have never enunciated a fact about "Magdalenian."

Google company, flagging messages for abuse can be abused as a tool
of mobbing, especially by stalkers with a multiple online identity.
How can you hold up the decline of the Usenet when you punish people
who take their time publishing and developing original ideas of their own?

Now to you, Peter. What you say above are meta-statements. Scientific
statements would be to point out a specific fact I violate or ignore,
and to ask me about a specific word in Magdalenian and what connection
I make between that word and cave art or rock art or mobile art and
recent language. If you can't focus on a specific word I propose DAI
for a protected area, or the comparative form SAI for life, existence,
or Latin caballus 'horse' (a word whose etymology is not yet explained).
Discuss a specific case on the scientific level instead of making meta-
statements, dropping verdicts from above.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 16, 2016, 8:40:39 AM9/16/16
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On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:45:15 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 1:19:02 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > Nothing in your dozen dozen dozen messages offers a single shred of
> > evidence justifying any one of your imagined vocables.
> >
> > You have never enunciated a fact about "Magdalenian."
>
> Google company, flagging messages for abuse can be abused as a tool
> of mobbing, especially by stalkers with a multiple online identity.
> How can you hold up the decline of the Usenet when you punish people
> who take their time publishing and developing original ideas of their own?

I have never "flagged for abuse" any message of yours, and I
resent the implication that I have.

And "Google company" (there's no such thing) does not read your messages.

> Now to you, Peter. What you say above are meta-statements.

Yes, they are. They are "ground rules" that set the stage for any
legitimate discussion.

> Scientific
> statements would be to point out a specific fact I violate or ignore,

Wrong. "Scientific statements" point out that your "methodology" (such
as it is) is worthless.

The "specific fact" is that there is NO EVIDENCE to connect ANY "cave
art" with any specific vocables.

> and to ask me about a specific word in Magdalenian and what connection

The very assumption of a "Magdalenian" is not valid. We can be absolutely
certain that the people who made "cave art" were fully human and
spoke human languageS (different ones in every community) that
were identical in principle and structure with their descendants, the
5000ish modern human languages.

> I make between that word and cave art or rock art or mobile art and
> recent language. If you can't focus on a specific word I propose DAI
> for a protected area, or the comparative form SAI for life, existence,
> or Latin caballus 'horse' (a word whose etymology is not yet explained).
> Discuss a specific case on the scientific level instead of making meta-
> statements, dropping verdicts from above.

As wrong as you could possibly be.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 17, 2016, 3:14:54 AM9/17/16
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Dan Briggs, you started another thread on a difficult language, Basque.
Nobody joins you there. They flock around me, so they can complain
without having to say anything about the topic of the thread, and flag
my messages for abuse. Complaining is the sci.lang way of pretending
knowledge and feeling as authority.

I give you my advice here. Theo Vennemann, author of the Vasconic theory
on early language, believes that Basque had been spoken aqlong the shores
of western Europe. This would go along pretty well with what you quote.

(My personal opinion: http://www.seshat.ch/home/lasco11.htm )

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 17, 2016, 3:33:00 AM9/17/16
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On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:40:39 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> I have never "flagged for abuse" any message of yours, and I
> resent the implication that I have.

You have two e-mail addresses but use your actual name, so you don't have
a multiple online identity and I can't have meant you.

> Wrong. "Scientific statements" point out that your "methodology" (such
> as it is) is worthless.

A scientific refutation requires that you give a summary of my methodology
in your own words (Freud was a master also in this respect) and only then
criticize it. You make a caricature of my work beforehand.

> The "specific fact" is that there is NO EVIDENCE to connect ANY "cave
> art" with any specific vocables.

The comparative method dates from the heyday of the mechanistic paradigm
when a direct cause had a direct effect. Sound laws were considered
actual laws that hold one hundred percent and allow to trace back language
to the paradise around 6,000 years ago, as Newton's laws of gravity
allow to trace back the positions of celestial bodies for millennia.
Your implication that I believe an element of cave art can directly be
translated into a vocable is made in the same spirit of direct cause and
effect, and therefore a case where you confound a paradigm with a fact.
I tell you again, and certainly in vain again, that there is a complex
web of connections between cave art and language, and the net value is
what counts in Magdalenian. Apart from that there are certain words
that may have an onomatopoeic origin. I told you the example of SAI
for life, existence. The origin was - spitting, emulated in toi toi toi
wishing luck to an actor going on stage, the older origin being the
spittle of a healer shaman or shamaness desinfecting the wound of a patient,
spittle having antiseptic properties, and then pigments mixed with fat
and spittle in the mouth of a cave artist and then blown on the wall,
giving life to the animals he painted, in the way Michel Lorblanchet
demonstrated so convincingly. You igrnored that reply of mine. You make
me say it all all over and over again. And you never go for a test case
of mine, nor do you propose a test case you can formulate on your own.

> The very assumption of a "Magdalenian" is not valid. We can be absolutely
> certain that the people who made "cave art" were fully human and
> spoke human languageS (different ones in every community) that
> were identical in principle and structure with their descendants, the
> 5000ish modern human languages.

I connect word language with tools. A hand axe was the universal tool
for millions of years. CroMagnon began to make different stone tools,
however, still very simple in comparison to the tools we have today.
This development is mirrored in language, in word language, to make
it precise.

> As wrong as you could possibly be.

Verdict dropped from above.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 17, 2016, 3:54:40 AM9/17/16
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Google company, you opened your center for deep machine learning in my
hometown of Zurich. Machine learning requires big data. Is this a reason
why you maintain the Usenet archive?

Learning is a highly creative process, not a dull stuffing of the brain
with information. We learn best when we follow ideas and projects of our own,
thus acquiring what psychologists call apperception, and what I call an
organic knowledge.

The great, really great French mathematician Henri Poincaré trusted
intuition and understood the creative process as preparation, incubation,
and finally illumination. Let me comment on the three phases:

Preparation

Study a problem from all sides and vantage points. Richard P. Feynman
in a letter from November 30, 1965: "Study hard what interests you the most
in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."

Incubation

Poincaré had the impression that his brain went on working on his own
when we made a break or went sleeping, pondering a problem on the
subconscious and unconscious leves, making deep connections we can't
make in the full daylight of the conscious mind ...

Illumination

... and then, when the time is right, provides a solution. Ramanujan
was dreaming some of his baffling formulae. Poincaré found the solution
to a difficult problem while climbing on or descending from a bus.
And Mozart wrote his best pieces in the early afternoon, when he had
eaten a good meal and drunk some whine - holding siesta with open eyes,
one might say.

Machine algorithms, in my opinion, can assist the human mind but not replace
it, because we make deeper and 'crazier' connections than machines can.
Now for the Usenet as potential or actual provider of big data: are you
happy with never ending meta-discussions and power games? are you aware
that flagging messages for abuse can be abused as a mobbing tool? Mobbing
is the enemy of learning and creativity, sometimes the revenge of someone
with a burning ambition but no ideas to nourish the fire. The rules you make
and facilities you offer shape the content. You can (to a certain degree)
make it shift toward dullness, or toward creativity and help to better
organize big data and thus enhance machine learning.

Google company, a good ten years ago you hired. I applied as professional
moron - I can test a device or a program etc. like a moron but observe
and then analyze what happens or happened (as if taking a wax impression
which I then can turn before my inner eye and study from every angle).
You told me that for the time being you need nobody of my abilities.
A computer programmer told me that professional morons are exactly
what the IT branch needs. Ever since I give you my advice for free.
Pas de quoi. You are welcome.

Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich, September 2016

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 17, 2016, 6:17:56 AM9/17/16
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Le samedi 17 septembre 2016 09:33:00 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:40:39 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > I have never "flagged for abuse" any message of yours, and I
> > resent the implication that I have.
>
> You have two e-mail addresses but use your actual name, so you don't have
> a multiple online identity and I can't have meant you.
>
> > Wrong. "Scientific statements" point out that your "methodology" (such
> > as it is) is worthless.
>
> A scientific refutation requires that you give a summary of my methodology
> in your own words (Freud was a master also in this respect) and only then
> criticize it. You make a caricature of my work beforehand.

I'm afraid it's very hard to understand what your "methodology" is.
Could you provide some summary of your "methodology" in your own words?
A.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 17, 2016, 8:11:03 AM9/17/16
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On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 3:14:54 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> Dan Briggs, you started another thread on a difficult language, Basque.
> Nobody joins you there.

No one here knows anything about Basque, so no one says anything about
it. You know nothing about Basque, but that doesn't stop _you_.

They flock around me, so they can complain
> without having to say anything about the topic of the thread, and flag
> my messages for abuse. Complaining is the sci.lang way of pretending
> knowledge and feeling as authority.

No one here knows anything about Etruscan, so no one says anything about
it. You know nothing about Etruscan, but that doesn't stop _you_.

No one "flocks around" you. the few sci.lang'ers that you did not
permanently drive away circle our wagons around those who are naive
enough to think that there are still linguists here who might be able
to help them with their inquiries.

You killed sci.lang. That is not appreciated.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 17, 2016, 10:20:47 AM9/17/16
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Sat, 17 Sep 2016 00:32:54 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>A scientific refutation requires that you give a summary of my methodology
>in your own words [...]

I did, on the example of six and sex. You insisted that they are
related, but ignored my question on details of the source of your
findings.

>(Freud was a master also in this respect) and only then
>criticize it. You make a caricature of my work beforehand.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 17, 2016, 10:25:03 AM9/17/16
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Sun, 11 Sep 2016 19:50:23 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>>PIE follows single words down to the past,
>
>That is science.
>
>>whereas Magdalenian starts from groups of words, permutation groups
>>that filled the verbal morphospace.
>
>That is fantasy.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 18, 2016, 3:37:14 AM9/18/16
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On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 12:17:56 PM UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I'm afraid it's very hard to understand what your "methodology" is.
> Could you provide some summary of your "methodology" in your own words?
> A.

In late 2004 I reconstructed the lunisolar calendar of the Göbekli Tepe
und saw a link to the Horus calendar of Egypt. Then, in early 2005,
followed the lunisolar calendar of Lascuax, reconstructed from ideograms
and pictures in that cave. Marie E.P. König had interpreted the bull as
moon bull, the horse as sun horse, the descending horses in the niche
at the rear end of the axial gallery as winter sun horse giving way to
a pair of antithetic ibices, emblem of midwinter (in Asia Minor also
opposing mountain goats). If so, the glorious rotunda is midsummer,
and the connecting axial gallery the year, the lovely pair of Chinese
horses the spring sun horse. There is a both amazing and beautiful calendar
encoded in several ideograms. This calendar is evidence for me that the
people of Lascaux and the Guyenne had a highly developed language. I found
nothing in literature but remembered Richard Fester's approach to the Ice
Age language. He proposed five ur-words, among the AQC (or is it ACQ ?)
for water, naming very many places in the Guyenne, for example Montignac
and Cognac. I modified the word to AC for an expanse of land with water.
Fester considered inverse forms and permutations. I tried the inverse of
AC which is CA and may have named the sky, Old Latin caelum 'sky'. Then
I went on, first in a more intuitive way, but then, in the spring of 2005,
coming up with a pair of Magdalenian laws

inverse forms have related meanings

permutations yield words around the same meme (a term coined by Dawkins)

In the spring of 2006 followed two more laws

D-words have comparative forms in S-words

important words can have lateral associations

Using my four laws of Magdalenian I mined a good four hundred words,
most often permutation groups of six words, sometimes of a dozen words
(D-forms and S-forms), and in one case a coherent group of 72 (seventy-
two) words around the topic of settlements, among them DAI for a protected
area and the comparative form SAI for life, existence, DAI represented as
tectiform signs in cave art, and SAI as dots, expecially red ocher ones
(a famous cave wherein both are combined in a most impressive way is
El Castillo in northern Spain).

Since then I explore combinations of the some four hundred Magdalenian words.
400 words allow in principle 160,000 compounds of two words and even many
more of three words. Mallory and Adams estimate some 40,000 PIE words. It's
not necessary to start with such a high number, much less basic words in
combinations do the job.

Important: Magdalenian relies on web logic, while I consider the linear
logic of the comparative method a fiction from the heyday of the mechanistic
era. Sound laws, was the hope, are actual laws that lead back to the Proto-
form. But they are but rules, outward approximations to the neurological
processes of language forming in the brain. Ten years ago I gave a longer
quote from a Proceeding of the Annual UCLA Indo-European Conference
wherein a scholar says that their PIE reconstructions are only half
scientific and for the other half lucky guesses relying on intuition.
Intuition, psychologists explain, is nothing mysterious but a quick access
to deep layers of the memory. However, intuition is not linear, it follows
web logic. That is the kind of logic Peter T. Daniels denies, as he denies
a lot else. I documented every step of my Magdalenian experiment since
early 2005 (nearly a dozen years) in sci.lang and publish summaries on
my website (www.seshat.ch, Lascaux chapters, permutation groups in
Lascaux 2).

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 18, 2016, 3:47:49 AM9/18/16
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On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 2:11:03 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> You killed sci.lang. That is not appreciated.

I keep sci.lang alive. A lot of activity here, whereas sci.archaeology,
in former years a very lively group, almost died. I began posting there
again, but as my main activity is here I post little to sci.archaeology.
I join only a few threads, when I am interested in the topic, leaving
the other threads to you. I see you and others claim to be in the know,
no, in the Know, but it's only a claim, you rarely demonstrate that you
actually do know. A rule of mine from long ago: Don't complain, offer
something better. Never ending meta-discussions larded with invectives
and peppered with ad hominems are the drag of sci.lang. That kills this
group while I keep it alive with a lot of ideas and challenges for the
scientifically interested. A main reason for the exodus from the Usenet
is the new version of the Google interface: former versions told us that
sci.lang has several thousand members (yes, Google uses the word member,
calls me a member of sci.lang and sci.archaeology and two more groups)
while the new interface reveals that a message is read by a few people
only. Why take one's time for a few views and plenty invectives? I read
of a group that emigrated from the Usenet to facebook, and not because
of me, but because they have way more readers there. So be careful with
accusations.
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