Tyrrhenian as para-Kartvelian

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Dan Briggs

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Sep 2, 2016, 1:43:50 AM9/2/16
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Hi!

I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.

Dan Alexe believes he has found a rather substantial amount of simple evidence that Etruscan is related to Kartvelian.

If I'm reading it right, then it wouldn't even be that distantly related either.

His has three kinds of evidence:
1. noun case and number endings: form, order, and scope
2. pronouns
3. shared basic vocabulary.

1. He says that it is a known fact that Kartvelian languages have a tendency to overload the dative, using it for both direct and indirect object, lacking an accusative. That the genitive ending has a tendency to come dangerously close phonologically to the dative (voiceless sibilants). That the ending is tacked on after the pluralizer—and that all of the above are true for Etruscan, in addition the forms being almost exactly the same. Also, the dative is used for time and duration in both sets of languages. He says he has discovered the adverbial case in Etruscan, and can observe it acting on the two (or half) zal/zilaθ/zilaχ, cognate with the Kartvelian cal-/cel-/cil- root for the same.

2. He finds the 1sing. & 3sing. mi & eca phonologically identical in Etruscan and Kartvelian. (Svan eǯa) He finds the 1pl. ni &1pl. possessive identical too. He finds the 2sing. identical, albeit knowing it from only one inscription. He says the menaχe/zinake of the Etruscan inscriptions are not different verbs, but the same verb (for built or gave) with 1sing./2sing. pronominals (benefactives?) prefixed, "as in Kartvelian" and with the same phonology.

3. He finds father, mother, daughter, son, write, moon, sun, young, sacred, musician (dancer), and actor nearly identical between Etruscan and Kartvelian. He finds nominalizing derivational prefixes such as m- in common between the families.

Throughout, he claims to have settled a number of "otherwise puzzling" aspects of Kartvelian incriptions. In my estimation, he never strays too close to the etymological method. *If he is right,* as he says, that these are cases where it is wondered why a certain thing is written a certain way, then I find his argument compelling indeed.

He says that the Etruscan writing system was poorly suited for Etruscan phonology in the case of c and z.

He says that when researchers first probed for an Etruscan-Kartvelian link, Svan wasn't very widely known, and so they found themselves relying on Georgian, which has some innovations that distract from being able to prove anything.

I find his arguments very convincing, but I don't know if he's citing his sources faithfully. Is there anyone in here who has studied Etruscan and Kartvelian (or has studied Etruscan and knows basic Svan)?

https://cabalinkabul.wordpress.com/2015/11/16/a-structural-comparison-of-etruscan-with-the-kartvelian-languages/

Best regards,
Dan

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 2, 2016, 2:40:40 AM9/2/16
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On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 7:43:50 AM UTC+2, Dan Briggs wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.
>
> Dan Alexe believes he has found a rather substantial amount of simple evidence that Etruscan is related to Kartvelian.
>

If you are seriously interested, you may try to contact Douglas G. Kilday,
expert on Etruscan and former member of sci.lang, possibly still active in
one or another group. Did you hear of the new Etruscan stele? Here some links.
Can Dan Alex shed light on the inscription via Kartvelian?

(quote from rogueclassicist in sci.archaeology)

They’re beginning to ‘decipher’ that Etruscan inscription found at Poggio Colla a few months ago:

http://phys.org/news/2016-08-significant-etruscan-discoveries-decades-female.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-08/smu-oot082416.php
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160824135508.htm
http://blog.smu.edu/research/2016/08/24/one-of-the-most-significant-etruscan-discoveries-in-decades-names-female-goddess-uni/
http://www.livescience.com/55907-etruscan-tablet-holds-lost-language.html
http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27488/20160826/discovery-of-uni-goddess-name-found-on-ancient-etruscan-temple-stone.htm
http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/08/2016/etruscan-discovery-names-goddess-uni
http://www.archaeology.org/news/4792-160826-etruscan-stele-uni

(unquote)

I myself see a fairly close connection between Etruscan and the Ice Age
lingua franca of shamans and shamanesses I call Magdalenian. An example.
TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, AS means
upward, SA downward, and NOS means mind. SA TYR NOS became Saturnus
Saturn, founder of the golden age in Latium - he who from above SA
overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR and has a mind NOS
of his own. An Etruscan shard wearing the inscription TYRSANOS had been
found in the agora of Athens, TYR SA NOS, he who overcomes in the double
sense of rule and give TYR from above (in downward direction) SA and has
a mind NOS of his own. Saturnus and TYRSANOS would then have been the same
god, worshipped by the Romans and Etruscans respectively.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 2, 2016, 2:47:37 AM9/2/16
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On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 9:40:40 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 7:43:50 AM UTC+2, Dan Briggs wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.
> >
> > Dan Alexe believes he has found a rather substantial amount of simple evidence that Etruscan is related to Kartvelian.
> >
>
> If you are seriously interested, you may try to contact Douglas G. Kilday,
> expert on Etruscan and former member of sci.lang, possibly still active in
> one or another group. Did you hear of the new Etruscan stele? Here some links.
> Can Dan Alex shed light on the inscription via Kartvelian?
>
> (quote from rogueclassicist in sci.archaeology)
>
> They’re beginning to ‘decipher’ that Etruscan inscription found at Poggio Colla a few months ago:
>
> http://phys.org/news/2016-08-significant-etruscan-discoveries-decades-female.html
> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-08/smu-oot082416.php
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160824135508.htm
> http://blog.smu.edu/research/2016/08/24/one-of-the-most-significant-etruscan-discoveries-in-decades-names-female-goddess-uni/
> http://www.livescience.com/55907-etruscan-tablet-holds-lost-language.html
> http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27488/20160826/discovery-of-uni-goddess-name-found-on-ancient-etruscan-temple-stone.htm
> http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/08/2016/etruscan-discovery-names-goddess-uni
> http://www.archaeology.org/news/4792-160826-etruscan-stele-uni
>
> (unquote)
>
> I myself see a fairly close connection between Etruscan and the Ice Age

Disregard this part.

Antonio Marques

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Sep 2, 2016, 6:25:43 AM9/2/16
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Dan Briggs wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.

Try to get the guy at http://paleoglot.blogspot.com interested. I don't
even know if he's still around (I know nothing about him other than he's
difficult but knows things and has a method to deduce others).

(I also have no idea if he knows anything about Kartvelian but I think
he'll be eager to learn what is needed if he sees something in the query.)

Antonio Marques

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Sep 2, 2016, 6:28:55 AM9/2/16
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(NB Yusuf meant the part that he cut out.)


Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 2, 2016, 7:59:29 AM9/2/16
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Yes.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 3, 2016, 3:26:36 AM9/3/16
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> I myself see a fairly close connection between Etruscan and the Ice Age
> lingua franca of shamans and shamanesses I call Magdalenian. An example.
> TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, AS means
> upward, SA downward, and NOS means mind. SA TYR NOS became Saturnus
> Saturn, founder of the golden age in Latium - he who from above SA
> overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR and has a mind NOS
> of his own. An Etruscan shard wearing the inscription TYRSANOS had been
> found in the agora of Athens, TYR SA NOS, he who overcomes in the double
> sense of rule and give TYR from above (in downward direction) SA and has
> a mind NOS of his own. Saturnus and TYRSANOS would then have been the same
> god, worshipped by the Romans and Etruscans respectively.

I wish Dan Alexe good luck with the Kartvelian approach, and can perhaps
give him some support from my side - if Kartvelian and Armenian should
have had a common ancestor 9,000 years ago. Here an ultra-concise version
(by courtesy of the disregarder who makes me go on; leaving out some
conjunctives, you may add them at your own expense ;-)

The Etruscans may have been the autochthonous population of Etruria
(Dionysos of Halikarnassos), heirs of the Villanove culture (mainstream
archaeology), absorbing numerous migrants from northern Europe
(mitochondrial DNA), and were formed by a relatively small but influential
tribe that came from Armenia (me, 2008) via Lydia shortly after the end
of the Trojan war (Herodotus).

AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and light RAA with a mind NOS, would have been
the sky god of the Göbekli Tepe region in southeastern Anatolia and
northern Syria, visualized ex negativo by the big limestone ring on the
Göbekli Tepe

http://www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG

and implored for rain that fills river beds (water symbol snake predominant
on the Göbekli Tepe and in the wider region: snakes heading upward
symbolizing prayers for rain and the smoke of sacrificial fires imploring
rain, snakes heading downward symbolizing falling rain that rewards the
prayers and sacrificial fires, and snakes undulating horizontally
symbolizing rivers and irrigation channels).

A severe drought occurred some 9,500 years ago. It was followed by a heavy
rain that fell for forty days and forty nights (Bible) and swept away
the fertile soil. NOS AAR RAA Noah, he who obeys the mind NOS of the one
of air AAR and light RAA, was an archetypical figure. There were two of them.
One Noah and his tribe followed the Euphrates downward and settled in Sumer,
where they founded Uruk of the cattle enclosure (Erech and the ark in the
Bible), named for AAR RAA CA, he of air AAR and light RAA in the sky CA.
The other Noah and his tribe followed the Euphrates upward and settled in
the region of Yerewan. AAR RAA MAN, he who carries out the will of the one
of air AAR and light RAA with his right hand MAN, accounts for Aramaean,
Araman and Armenia. The sun archer Tir of Armenia in the Bronze Age goes
along with TYRSANOS mentioned on the Etruscan shard from the agora of
Athens, permutation SA TYR NOS Saturnus Saturn, while AAR RAA NOS,
he implored for rain that fills river beds, named the main river of Etruria,
Arnus Arno

AAR RAA NOS A R NuS Arno


Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 3, 2016, 7:18:02 AM9/3/16
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Le vendredi 2 septembre 2016 07:43:50 UTC+2, Dan Briggs a écrit :
> Hi!
>
> I'm posting here because I would really like to get an expert pair of eyes on this.
>
> Dan Alexe believes he has found a rather substantial amount of simple evidence that Etruscan is related to Kartvelian.
>
[...]

> He says that when researchers first probed for an Etruscan-Kartvelian link, Svan wasn't very widely known, and so they found themselves relying on Georgian, which has some innovations that distract from being able to prove anything.
>
> I find his arguments very convincing, but I don't know if he's citing his sources faithfully. Is there anyone in here who has studied Etruscan and Kartvelian (or has studied Etruscan and knows basic Svan)?
>
> https://cabalinkabul.wordpress.com/2015/11/16/a-structural-comparison-of-etruscan-with-the-kartvelian-languages/
>
> Best regards,
> Dan

I used to be quite sceptical about ideas that Etruscan would not be autochthonous in Italy.
Now, I think that Etruscan contains Hurro-Urartian material, quite extensively. It's then possible that Etruscan indeed came from the Near East, possibly from Cyprus.
Some sentences in Etruscan easily translate into Hurrian. One is:
ci clenar acanasa lupu
three kids having begotten (s)he died

ci = Hurrian kig three
clen-ar- = Hurrian hani "child", with initial cluster simplication and uvular *g > h in Hurrian
acan- = ag "to bring, lead"
-asa = Hurrian usa past active participle
lupu = ullil-ub "to die"
the ending ub(i) in the archaic past tense

As a rule Etruscan devoices consonants.
ag- > ac
ub- > upu

On the whole, Etruscan seems to be a mixture of phonetically evolved Hurrian with a number of lexical borrowings from Italic.
I don't think it's close to Kartvelian.

As regards *g > h in Hurrian, you can also compare Tagès = Hurrian tahe "man".
A.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 3, 2016, 7:50:45 AM9/3/16
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On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:26:36 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:


Ignore.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 3, 2016, 8:50:06 AM9/3/16
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On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 7:18:02 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:

> I used to be quite sceptical about ideas that Etruscan would not be autochthonous in Italy.
> Now, I think that Etruscan contains Hurro-Urartian material, quite extensively. It's then possible that Etruscan indeed came from the Near East, possibly from Cyprus.
> Some sentences in Etruscan easily translate into Hurrian. One is:
> ci clenar acanasa lupu
> three kids having begotten (s)he died
>
> ci = Hurrian kig three
> clen-ar- = Hurrian hani "child", with initial cluster simplication and uvular *g > h in Hurrian

That can be strictly graphic. Cuneiform had no provision for uvulars
so they would have to be written with the <x> (h-rocker) signs.
Hebrew /G/ survived at least into the 3rd c BCE (as shown by Greek
transcriptions) but
was written with <`ayin> for centuries because Phoenician had
lost the sound long before and didn't keep the letter for it.

> acan- = ag "to bring, lead"
> -asa = Hurrian usa past active participle
> lupu = ullil-ub "to die"
> the ending ub(i) in the archaic past tense
>
> As a rule Etruscan devoices consonants.
> ag- > ac
> ub- > upu

"As a rule" in English means 'usually'. That is not the case; you mean
"always." The Etruscan abedecaries include the letters B, C(amma),
D, O but none are used in the Etruscan language: it had no phonemic
voiced stops.

Italo

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Sep 3, 2016, 2:13:42 PM9/3/16
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Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:

>
> As regards *g > h in Hurrian, you can also compare Tagès = Hurrian tahe "man".
> A.

Since Tages appeared from the earth, one could also compare words meaning earth.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+137
e.g. Hittite tekan, genitive taknas








--

b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 3, 2016, 7:45:01 PM9/3/16
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On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 10:26:36 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > I myself see a fairly close connection between Etruscan and the Ice Age
> > lingua franca of shamans and shamanesses I call Magdalenian. An example.
> > TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, AS means
> > upward, SA downward, and NOS means mind. SA TYR NOS became Saturnus
> > Saturn, founder of the golden age in Latium - he who from above SA
> > overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR and has a mind NOS
> > of his own. An Etruscan shard wearing the inscription TYRSANOS had been
> > found in the agora of Athens, TYR SA NOS, he who overcomes in the double
> > sense of rule and give TYR from above (in downward direction) SA and has
> > a mind NOS of his own. Saturnus and TYRSANOS would then have been the same
> > god, worshipped by the Romans and Etruscans respectively.
>
> I wish Dan Alexe good luck with the Kartvelian approach, and can perhaps
> give him some support from my side - if Kartvelian and Armenian should
> have had a common ancestor 9,000 years ago

You, Franz, don't know a word of either Georgian or Armenian and have no business to pronounce upon either language.

If you want to learn the languages, Helmut Buske Verlag has excellent textbooks for German speakers.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 3, 2016, 7:53:07 PM9/3/16
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On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 9:13:42 PM UTC+3, Italo wrote:
> Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:
>
> >
> > As regards *g > h in Hurrian, you can also compare Tagès = Hurrian tahe "man".
> > A.
>
> Since Tages appeared from the earth, one could also compare words meaning earth.

Do you know Etruscan creation myth? Greek myth has from clay, which
may have been adopted the the Etruscans.

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 4, 2016, 3:24:10 AM9/4/16
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Le samedi 3 septembre 2016 14:50:06 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 7:18:02 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> > I used to be quite sceptical about ideas that Etruscan would not be autochthonous in Italy.
> > Now, I think that Etruscan contains Hurro-Urartian material, quite extensively. It's then possible that Etruscan indeed came from the Near East, possibly from Cyprus.
> > Some sentences in Etruscan easily translate into Hurrian. One is:
> > ci clenar acanasa lupu
> > three kids having begotten (s)he died
> >
> > ci = Hurrian kig three
> > clen-ar- = Hurrian hani "child", with initial cluster simplication and uvular *g > h in Hurrian
>
> That can be strictly graphic. Cuneiform had no provision for uvulars
> so they would have to be written with the <x> (h-rocker) signs.
> Hebrew /G/ survived at least into the 3rd c BCE (as shown by Greek
> transcriptions) but
> was written with <`ayin> for centuries because Phoenician had
> lost the sound long before and didn't keep the letter for it.

It's a sound change in Hurrian, as evidenced by
Akkadian quradu "soldier, hero" > Hurrian huradi
The Hurrian form was reborrowed into Late Babylonian.
A.

>
> > acan- = ag "to bring, lead"
> > -asa = Hurrian usa past active participle
> > lupu = ullil-ub "to die"
> > the ending ub(i) in the archaic past tense
> >
> > As a rule Etruscan devoices consonants.
> > ag- > ac
> > ub- > upu
>
> "As a rule" in English means 'usually'. That is not the case; you mean
> "always." The Etruscan abedecaries include the letters B, C(amma),
> D, O but none are used in the Etruscan language: it had no phonemic
> voiced stops.

yes, they were devoiced at some point in Ancient Etruscan.
A.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 4, 2016, 8:10:10 AM9/4/16
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On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 3:24:10 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> Le samedi 3 septembre 2016 14:50:06 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Saturday, September 3, 2016 at 7:18:02 AM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:

> > > acan- = ag "to bring, lead"
> > > -asa = Hurrian usa past active participle
> > > lupu = ullil-ub "to die"
> > > the ending ub(i) in the archaic past tense
> > >
> > > As a rule Etruscan devoices consonants.
> > > ag- > ac
> > > ub- > upu
> >
> > "As a rule" in English means 'usually'. That is not the case; you mean
> > "always." The Etruscan abedecaries include the letters B, C(amma),
> > D, O but none are used in the Etruscan language: it had no phonemic
> > voiced stops.
>
> yes, they were devoiced at some point in Ancient Etruscan.

You can only say "devoiced" if you have some reason to suppose there
was an earlier voiced stage.

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 4, 2016, 8:55:44 AM9/4/16
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they use c (originally [g]) to note /k/, so I suppose they did have the phoneme /g/ originally.
Besides, we have plenty of Greek loanwords into Etruscan, all of them pointing toward devoicing in Etruscan.
A.

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 4, 2016, 9:01:35 AM9/4/16
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Le samedi 3 septembre 2016 20:13:42 UTC+2, Italo a écrit :
> Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:
>
> >
> > As regards *g > h in Hurrian, you can also compare Tagès = Hurrian tahe "man".
> > A.
>
> Since Tages appeared from the earth, one could also compare words meaning earth.
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+137
> e.g. Hittite tekan, genitive taknas

yes, thank you,
this is an interesting idea.
BUT, in Nakh languages, "man" is originally *stag
so things get pretty complicated,
I'm not against a connection between:
PIE *teg^h-om "earth", *g^hdhom-vn- "(hu)man"
Hurrian *tahe "man" < (?) tag-
NAkh *stag- "man"
but this needs some additional comments.
Besides the (u)v(e)lar is not the same.
A.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 5, 2016, 3:04:43 AM9/5/16
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a dozen Etruscan words and a couple of names in the light of Magdalenian
(una, thi, tiur, thevru, ushil, zeri, caper, tupi, leu, mi, netshvis,
Tages, ais, Tinia, TYRSANOS, Arno)

Una 'to flow, (water-)course' may be a strongly polished version of the
generic river formula AD DA naming a river that flows toward AD the sea
while coming from DA hills or mountains, also a trading route or a person
going to one place while coming from another; with a nasal infix in
the river name Indus, in Italian andare 'to go', in Latin unda 'wave'
- losing the D in Etruscan una, while the second DA of AD DA may have
become Etruscan thi 'water'. Proto-Indo-European derives Latin unda from
*wodr- that accounts for English water Hittite watar Lithuanian vanduo ...
This means that also *wodr- goes back to AD DA (or perhaps AD DA REO,
REO meaning river, Greek hydor 'water').

Tiur 'moon' might refer to the moon bull, from TOR for bull in motion,
also present in thevru 'bull'.

More demanding is ushil 'sun' and maybe 'south'. The summer sun horse
of Lascaux was called CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, Spanish caballo 'horse'.
As means upward. AS CA BAL, up with you, (summer) sun horse, rise toward
the south! AS CA BAL ushil ? (I see a main problem of Etruscan in strongly
polished forms.)

Zeri 'bright, clear (sky, weather)' is akin to Serri of the Hurrites,
the Serri bull of the day sky, from TYR for the one who overcomes in the
double sense of rule and give, emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos
Disc, Derk Ohlenroth) Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus, Greek
sky and weather god.

Caper 'coat' has cognates in English cape and cap that somehow capture
body and head, from very ancient *KAPA 'hand, palm, finger, to take,
also bite', with derivatives in way more than one hundred languages
(Merritt Ruhlen et al.).

Tupi 'punishment' evokes DAP for the activity of hands, French tapper
'to knock, beat', suggesting a beating as early punishment. English beat
derives from inverse PAD for the activity of feet, a word of very many
derivatives, among them paw, used by a bear to carry out a blow. DA PAD
David, he delivered out of the paws of the lion and the bear and Goliath.
(In sci.lang I am getting panushed for my wealth in ideas, a verbal beating.)

Leu 'lion' is an easy case, Magdalenian )EI or LEI for an attacking lion,
Swiss Leu for lion.

Another easy case is mi 'I' from the humming Mm that marks presence,
English me French moi (consider also my mine, mon ma mes, mio mia miei mie,
...).

A real challenge is netshvis 'reader of a sheep's liver, divinator'.
Conspicuous features of a liver were seen as divine messages. Along the
margin of the bronze model of a sheep's liver from Piacenza are sixteen
fields that correspond to the sixteen houses of gods and goddesses along
the horizon. I propose NOT PAS netshvis. NOT means knowledge acquired
via the senses, as verb to note or notice, while PAS means everywhere
(in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me - further
subdivisions being the 8 and 16 heavenly sectors of Etruscan religion,
inhabited by deities who spoke via the liver of a sacrificed sheep.

Divination was introduced by the mythical boy Tages. Magdalenian DhAG
means able, good in the sense of able. (Tag-words for earth refer to the
ancient belief that our able ur-ancestors had been born from the earth.)

Ais 'good' may derive from AIS meaning fate, Greek aisa, indicating
deities as the ones who decide on the fate of people, a permutation of
AIS being SAI for life.

Tinia was the supreme Etruscan god, equivalent of the Greek Zeus. His name
might derive from TON for to make oneself heard (inverse of NOT). Among
the derivatives of TON are English tone German Ton 'sound', English din,
also tin as clanging metal (tin pan and sheet). Then there are thunder
German Donner. Tinia may may have made himself heard via thunder, on a par
with Zeus the thunderer.

SA TYR NOS Saturnus Saturn was the founder of the golden age in Latium.
He was mentioned in the form of TYRSANOS on an Etruscan shard found in
the agora of Athens: he overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR
from up above (in downward direction) SA and has a mind NOS of his own.

AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and light RAA with a mind NOS, had been the old
sky god and was implored for rain on the Göbekli Tepe. He became the Hurri
bull of the Hurrites, relegated to the night sky by the new god TYR Serri
in his guise of a bull. AAR RAA NOS implored for rain that fills river beds
would have named the main river of Etruria, Arnus Arno.

The polished forms might indicate a mixed population, basically
autochthonous, absorbing numerous migrants from northern Europe
(mitochondrial DNA), joined before 1 200 BC by an influential tribe
from Anatolia, mountain land of the many river valleys, AD DA being
the generic river formula, DAL meaning dale or valley

AD DA DAL An DA DAL An A DoL Anatolia

(Etruscan words from http://www.etruskisch.de )

Are there cognates of Svan and Etruscan? If so, tell me a few examples
and I shall have a look at them from my vantage point.


Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 5, 2016, 3:18:05 AM9/5/16
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On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 10:04:43 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

>
> a dozen Etruscan words and a couple of names in the light of Magdalenian

Any mention of Magdalenian or any sort of so-called analysis pertaining to
it should be on the "Magdalenian" thread (ideally not even mentioned at all)


Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 5, 2016, 3:53:00 AM9/5/16
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Correction: Ais 'god' later eis ...

By the way, I work in sci.lang, instead of hanging around and claiming
to own a penthouse at the top of the Tower of Truth from where I can
drop verdicts and make the rules for those who have ideas.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 5, 2016, 4:11:36 AM9/5/16
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On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 10:53:00 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

>
> Correction: Ais 'god' later eis ...
>

You have a lot "correct".

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 5, 2016, 8:46:48 AM9/5/16
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They use all of C, K, and Q to write /k/, depending on the following
vowel (CA KE KI QO QU). Nothing to do with *g.

> Besides, we have plenty of Greek loanwords into Etruscan, all of them pointing toward devoicing in Etruscan.

French "plume" [plym] comes into English as "plume" [plum]. Does that
mean that English "has" a "derounding rule"?

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 5, 2016, 8:48:38 AM9/5/16
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On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:53:00 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> By the way, I work in sci.lang,

Wrong. You fantasize. You frequently proclaim that you "dream" your nonsense.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 6, 2016, 2:10:33 AM9/6/16
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On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 2:48:38 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Wrong. You fantasize. You frequently proclaim that you "dream" your nonsense.

Den seinen gibt's der Herr im Schlaf ... If you were interested in modern
neurology you'd know that the brain is most active when we are sleeping
and solves a lot of problems on its own. Deciding is that you organize
your knowledge well. If you stuff your brain with textbook material only,
then the brain has a lot of trouble with artificial separations and
classifications. Learn along ideas and projects of your own and you'll
acquire what I call an organic knowledge and what psychologists call
apperception, and sleep will be your friend.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 6, 2016, 2:22:48 AM9/6/16
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> Tiur 'moon' might refer to the moon bull, from TOR for bull in motion,
> also present in thevru 'bull'.
>
> More demanding is ushil 'sun' and maybe 'south'. The summer sun horse
> of Lascaux was called CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, Spanish caballo 'horse'.
> As means upward. AS CA BAL, up with you, (summer) sun horse, rise toward
> the south! AS CA BAL ushil ? (I see a main problem of Etruscan in strongly
> polished forms.)
>

As for Etruscan tiur 'moon', Dan Alexe gives tivr 'moon' and Svan tovare
tvare as basic element of the moon word. I see them as derivatives of TOR
for bull in motion and reference to the moon bull of old. This word has
derivatives in very many languages (compiled by Saul Levin, testifying
to a universal early language), among them Spanish toro and Latin taurus,
note the inserted -u- as in tiur, or the v in tivr and tovare tvare.

If the moon was named for a bull, the ancient moon bull, then the sun
for the horse, the ancient sun horse, AS CA BAL, up summer sun horse,
AS CA BAL ushil, maybe overformed by the diminutive of -z- 'to shine',
hence the little shining one, with a possible parallel in Svan, as
proposed by Dan Alexe. Overformings were frequent. Classical Paleo-
linguistics can't see behind overformings. Magdalenian can.

CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, name of the summer sun horse, caballus caballo
upward AS
together AS CA BAL, up summer sun horse
in Etruscan as pidgin Magdalenian ushil
overformed by uzi:l, the sun as the little shining one

Next time: Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)


Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 6, 2016, 8:55:41 AM9/6/16
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On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:10:33 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 2:48:38 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > Wrong. You fantasize. You frequently proclaim that you "dream" your nonsense.
>
> Den seinen gibt's der Herr im Schlaf ... If you were interested in modern
> neurology you'd know that the brain is most active when we are sleeping
> and solves a lot of problems on its own. Deciding is that you organize
> your knowledge well. If you stuff your brain with textbook material only,

If you exclude from your brain textbook material -- i.e., facts -- you
have nothing to base your suppositions on.

Mr Kekule dreamed the structure of the benzene ring because his mind
was prepared with a large number of facts that hadn't yet been
brought into coherence.

> then the brain has a lot of trouble with artificial separations and
> classifications. Learn along ideas and projects of your own and you'll
> acquire what I call an organic knowledge and what psychologists call
> apperception, and sleep will be your friend.

I don't know what "learn along" is.

What I know is that I learned a large number of disparate facts about
the world's writing systems and was able to see some overarching principles
in how they work. If I hadn't learned about Sumerian, Chinese,
Mayan, Cherokee, Cree, Vai, Aramaic, Sasanian, Kharosthi, Tibetan,
and Korean, I wouldn't have seen them.

Antonio Marques

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Sep 6, 2016, 11:17:15 AM9/6/16
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And I was going to ask whether they paid him and might there be some
openings sometime.....

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 6, 2016, 6:25:45 PM9/6/16
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The rest of us have other venues where we can work and publish our results. Poor Franz has only sci.lang.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 6, 2016, 9:42:42 PM9/6/16
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You have a lot to "correct".

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 7, 2016, 3:31:09 AM9/7/16
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Khoisan 1 "Magdalenian" 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmr0AE1Qyws

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 7, 2016, 3:51:19 AM9/7/16
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> As for Etruscan tiur 'moon', Dan Alexe gives tivr 'moon' and Svan tovare
> tvare as basic element of the moon word. I see them as derivatives of TOR
> for bull in motion and reference to the moon bull of old. This word has
> derivatives in very many languages (compiled by Saul Levin, testifying
> to a universal early language), among them Spanish toro and Latin taurus,
> note the inserted -u- as in tiur, or the v in tivr and tovare tvare.
>
> If the moon was named for a bull, the ancient moon bull, then the sun
> for the horse, the ancient sun horse, AS CA BAL, up summer sun horse,
> AS CA BAL ushil, maybe overformed by the diminutive of -z- 'to shine',
> hence the little shining one, with a possible parallel in Svan, as
> proposed by Dan Alexe. Overformings were frequent. Classical Paleo-
> linguistics can't see behind overformings. Magdalenian can.
>
> CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL, name of the summer sun horse, caballus caballo
> upward AS
> together AS CA BAL, up summer sun horse
> in Etruscan as pidgin Magdalenian ushil
> overformed by uzi:l, the sun as the little shining one
>
> Next time: Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)

Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)

The fire giver PIR GID and the fur giver BIR GID and the fertility giver
BRI GID met on the Göbekli Tepe. It was in the early days, cold and dark.
BRI GID complained: I am freezing. BIR GID gave her a warming fur. But
BRI GID went on complaining: It is so dark. Hereupon PIR GID made a fire
that warmed the three mighty sisters and made their faces shine. Now the
women blew into the flames of the bonfire, making it flare up, and the wind
they caused made a million sparks fly into the sky. BRI GID was delighted:
How pretty they are! And look, they hang in the sky, ornating the heavenly
vault, PIR LIC ....

PIR means fire and LIC means light and luck. BRI GID named the stars
that are specks of light from the fire of PIR GID. LIC became Latin lux
genitive lumen, and PIR LIC pulum in the Magdalenian pidgin called Etruscan

PIR LIC PIR Lux PI(R) Lum pulum 'star'

while a further derivative of LIC may be Etruscan lur naming the rays of
a star.

Next time: Etruscan numbers (taken from an early calendar?)


Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 7, 2016, 4:09:31 AM9/7/16
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On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 10:51:19 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

>
> Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)
>
> The fire giver PIR GID and the fur giver BIR GID and the fertility giver

OMG "fur" again.

You are determined to make yourself obnoxious.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 7, 2016, 4:24:47 AM9/7/16
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> Etruscan pulum 'star' (a fable from the beginning of the world)
>
> The fire giver PIR GID and the fur giver BIR GID and the fertility giver
> BRI GID met on the Göbekli Tepe. It was in the early days, cold and dark.
> BRI GID complained: I am freezing. BIR GID gave her a warming fur. But
> BRI GID went on complaining: It is so dark. Hereupon PIR GID made a fire
> that warmed the three mighty sisters and made their faces shine. Now the
> women blew into the flames of the bonfire, making it flare up, and the wind
> they caused made a million sparks fly into the sky. BRI GID was delighted:
> How pretty they are! And look, they hang in the sky, ornating the heavenly
> vault, PIR LIC ....
>
> PIR means fire and LIC means light and luck. BRI GID named the stars
> that are specks of light from the fire of PIR GID. LIC became Latin lux
> genitive lumen, and PIR LIC pulum in the Magdalenian pidgin called Etruscan
>
> PIR LIC PIR Lux PI(R) Lum pulum 'star'
>
> while a further derivative of LIC may be Etruscan lur naming the rays of
> a star.
>
> Next time: Etruscan numbers (taken from an early calendar?)

Etruscan numbers (taken from an early calendar?)

September October November December had once been the months number 7 8 9 10.
A regular year of 365 days and ten months or rather periods may have had

36 37 36 37 36 37 36 37 36 37 days

while 36 double periods of 73 days correspond fairly well to 89 lunations
or synodic months (there are further correspondences of a practical value).

The Etruscans used a decimal number system. Here tentative explanations
of the numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 9 and 10 in the frame of the above calendar
and a regular year of 365 days:

thu 'one' - period number one, beginning with the winter soltice, from
December 21 till January 25 in our modern calendar, honoring the Divine
Hind or Hind Woman who called life into existence. Her name was CER -: I -:
(pronounce the lip lick -: by touching both lips with the tip of the
tongue. Among the many derivatives of -: I -: are articles like English
the (which call the subsequent noun into existence), and possibly also
Etruscan thu 'one' and 'a/an' (a word, an article). Period number one
in the above calendar calls the year into existence

zal 'two' - period number two, 37 days, January 26 till March 3, when the
watery ground SAL is frozen, Italian gelato

ci 'three' - period number three, 36 days, March 4 till April 9, period
of the spring equinox (March 21), honoring the bird goddess of 'Old Europe'
(Marija Gimbutas, Ki Ri Ke given as cross line angle, surviving in Homer's
Kirkae Circe, from the emphatic formula CA AAR RAA CA, she in the sky CA
of air AAR and light RAA, she in the sky CA

mach 'four' - period number four, 37 days, April 9 till May 15, honoring
the bull MUC. The Divine Hind of Altamira called life into existence,
also moon bulls. A beautiful and large hind painted in that cave licks
the horns of a small bison under her

http://www.seshat.ch/home/hind1.JPG

huth 'five' - period number five, 36 days, May 16 till June 20, when arbors
and huts where built in honor of the Divine Hind Woman, from KOD for hut

sha 'six - period number six, 37 days, beginning with the summer solstice,
June 21 till July 27, when the sun (horse) rules the sky, ruler ShA

ciem 'seven' - period number seven, 36 days, July 28 till September 1, ??

eslem 'eight' - period number eight, 37 days, September 2 till October 8,
period of the fall equinox (September 23), ??

thunem 'nine' - period number nine, 36 days, October 9 till November 13,
harvest festival, honoring the Divine Hind Woman and Etruscan fertility
goddess in personalunion

sar 'ten' - period number ten, 37 days, November 14 till December 20,
honoring TYRSANOS mentioned on an Etruscan shard found in the agora of
Athens: he overcomes in the double way of rule and give TYR from above
(in downward direction) SA and has a mind NOS of his own; Roman version
SA TYR NOS Saturnus Saturn, founder of the golden age in Latium. The
Saturnalia were celebrated in later December. Sar may be an emphatic
form of TYR, while TYRSANOS may have been a title of Tinia whose wife
was the fertility goddess Uno. (The pair of them is mentioned on the
newly discovered stele from Poggio Buca. I look forward to a trans-
literation and translation of the long inscription.) Uno became the Roman
Juno, wife of ShA PAD TYR Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove, the ruler ShA
goes (ahead) PAD and overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR,
DhAG PAD TYR Dis pater, byname of Jupiter, the able one DhAG goes (ahead)
PAD and overcomes in the double sense of rule and give TYR.


Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 7, 2016, 4:34:12 AM9/7/16
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On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:55:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> If you exclude from your brain textbook material -- i.e., facts -- you
> have nothing to base your suppositions on.

If you stuff your mind with textbooks only - did you miss the 'only'?

> Mr Kekule dreamed the structure of the benzene ring because his mind
> was prepared with a large number of facts that hadn't yet been
> brought into coherence.

I don't dream my insights, but when I ponder a problem and sleep over it
and wake up in the morning I sometimes feel that a solution is close,
and then I have to work, beginning to write a chapter, and then ideas
form as if on their own, magical moments, but also a lot of work.

> What I know is that I learned a large number of disparate facts about
> the world's writing systems and was able to see some overarching principles
> in how they work. If I hadn't learned about Sumerian, Chinese,
> Mayan, Cherokee, Cree, Vai, Aramaic, Sasanian, Kharosthi, Tibetan,
> and Korean, I wouldn't have seen them.

Fine, and I studied cave art and rock art and mobile art for more than
four decades, enabling me to formulate my Magdalenian approach to early
language. You told me that archaeology and paintings have nothing to do
with language. That's one of the artificial separations and classifications
you make your brain struggle with.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 7, 2016, 8:24:41 AM9/7/16
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On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 4:34:12 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 2:55:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > If you exclude from your brain textbook material -- i.e., facts -- you
> > have nothing to base your suppositions on.
>
> If you stuff your mind with textbooks only - did you miss the 'only'?

Then when will you start incorporating facts into your fantasies?

> > Mr Kekule dreamed the structure of the benzene ring because his mind
> > was prepared with a large number of facts that hadn't yet been
> > brought into coherence.
>
> I don't dream my insights, but when I ponder a problem and sleep over it
> and wake up in the morning I sometimes feel that a solution is close,
> and then I have to work, beginning to write a chapter, and then ideas
> form as if on their own, magical moments, but also a lot of work.
>
> > What I know is that I learned a large number of disparate facts about
> > the world's writing systems and was able to see some overarching principles
> > in how they work. If I hadn't learned about Sumerian, Chinese,
> > Mayan, Cherokee, Cree, Vai, Aramaic, Sasanian, Kharosthi, Tibetan,
> > and Korean, I wouldn't have seen them.
>
> Fine, and I studied cave art and rock art and mobile art for more than
> four decades, enabling me to formulate my Magdalenian approach to early
> language. You told me that archaeology and paintings have nothing to do
> with language. That's one of the artificial separations and classifications
> you make your brain struggle with.

You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
(as if it were one single thing) and language.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 7, 2016, 12:22:54 PM9/7/16
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Maybe it's just a sexual fetish Franz has.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 8, 2016, 12:47:02 AM9/8/16
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I strongly suspect that.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Concluding hypothesis. Etruscan might be a Magdalenian pidgin of three main
elements: a) language of the autochthonous population of Etruria, heirs of
the Villanova culture; b) migrants from northern Europe, their presence
testified to by mitochondrial DNA; and c) language of a relatively small
but influential tribe from Anatolia arriving in Etruria in around 1 100 BC.

What I realize only now: the calendar periods 1 3 5 9 are female, 4 10 male,
suggesting

female periods 1 3 5 7 9
male periods 2 4 6 8 10

We know this balance from other objects, for example the newly discovered
stele from Poggio Buco, one face dedicated to Tinia, the other to his wife
Uno. One side of Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is dedicated to Adu (Baal),
the other to Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Baal). One side of the
Phaistos Disc represents Elaia's grove at Phigalia, sacred to Demeter in
her guise of Elaia, the other Tiryns, the shining town of Sseyr Zeus.
Makes me wonder about the spiral texts on the two sides of the Etruscan
lead disc from Magliano.

There is now material that can be tested. The winter solstice, New Year,
would have been consecrated to the life giving goddess, Divine Hind or
Hind woman of Magdalenian times. The srping equinox to the goddess in
her bird emanation. And the summer solstice to the sun horse, period
number 6 being male, therefore a stallion. This can already be tested.
Here an impasto chalice from Narce, Lazio

http://cpw.imagenavi.jp/preview/515/51512187_PW36.jpg
(at home I have a better picture and may place it online some day)

The rim of the chalice would symbolize a year. The pair of horse heads
(horses in low position) midwinter, and the pair of horses held by a man
on the other side the sun god and his horses. A drawing I found on the
inner cover of the Catalogue of Etruscan art of the University of
Pennsylvania (google for chalice etruscan impasto - in this order,
in the sector Images, and you can find the drawing from the inner
frontispice of a salisbury book) shows the man holding up his hands
and spreading his fingers, ten fingers, of course, sar 'ten' indicating
TYRSANOS of the calendar period ten. And, as I assumed, the horses are
stallions, confirming that the even numbers are male periods of time.

Franz Gnaedinger

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On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> (as if it were one single thing) and language.

All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
I read as SAI for life, while the cave wall symbolizes the sky CA,
so we have SAI CA wherefrom pSAI CA psychae - claiming a second life SAI
in the sky CA for a worthy soul ... The Magdalenian paintings, the most
famous bulls, often in compact rounded forms, impressed Picasso, and me
when I first saw photographs of them near the entrance of the Musée de
l'homme at Paris when I was seventeen years old, learning French with
a classmate from school. The biggest painted animal in the Altamira cave,
however, is a beautiful hind licking the horns of a small bison under her

http://www.seshat.ch/home/hind1.JPG

I interpret her as as the Divine Hind calling life into existence,
also moon bulls, thus creating time, lunations or synodic months,
periods of 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 29 30 ... days. Her name
was CER -: I -: (produce the lip lick -: by touching both lips
with the tip of your tongue). CER accounts for Latin cervus French cerf
'stag'; CER -: I -: for the Greek goddess Hera, wife of Zeus, and for
Northwest Proto-Indo-European *kerdeh- 'herd'; -: I -: alone for a call
of Celtic herdsmen that survives in a similar form in the locally famous
lyoba call of herdsmen in the Swiss Canton of Fribourg, then in German
Leben English life, German Liebe English love, in Latin libido 'desire',
Ugaritic dd 'loved one' and Phoenician Dido 'Beloved one', in the female
given name Lily and flower lily, German Laub 'foliage' and Laube 'arbor
(also English lobby), and articles like English the, articles calling
the subsequent noun into existence ...

Apparently the goddess was also responsible for the life of plants. If so,
there should be some evidence in Altamira. And there is! While some bulls
have regular tails in form of 'paintbrushes', others have tails in form
of 'fir twiglets' ...

The Divine Hind as Hind Woman is invisibly present in the midwinter niche
at the rear end of the axial gallery of Lascaux, evoked ex negatio by
the pair of antithetic ibices (identified as emblem of the winter solstice
by Marie E.P. König), the arcs of horns and heads indicating Orion, guise
of the Divine Hind Woman, from ORE EON, she on the beautiful ORE bank or
shore EON of the CA LAC, heavenly CA river or lake LAC overformed by Galaxy,
Milky Way ...

And now those interpretations proved to be most important for Etruscan!
(But I must long have lost you, as you told me several times, and proudly,
that you only read ten lines of a message of mine).

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 8, 2016, 7:39:11 AM9/8/16
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On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 3:51:06 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> Concluding hypothesis. Etruscan might be a Magdalenian pidgin

Oh, dear. He learned a new word but not what it means.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 8, 2016, 7:41:52 AM9/8/16
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On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
>
> All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
> here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
> is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
> I read as SAI for life,

Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.

Even if it signified 'life' in a cave in Spain, there is no reason
to suppose that it also signified 'life' in a cave in China.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 8, 2016, 1:56:36 PM9/8/16
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On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 2:41:52 PM UTC+3, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> > > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
> >
> > All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
> > here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
> > is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
> > I read as SAI for life,
>
> Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
> is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.

Probably Franz has read somewhere that "life" is "chaim" in Hebrew, and thinks that the "ch" should be read as in English. And in his idea of historical phonology, ch and s are more or less the same sound.

Dan Briggs

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Sep 8, 2016, 8:05:29 PM9/8/16
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Welp, in the absence of any Svan scholarship...

http://i.imgur.com/x0MTLck.jpg

It's good to see you all again this September, after so long

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 9, 2016, 2:55:49 AM9/9/16
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Finally a reply from you. Can you tell me the Svan word for horse?
My university library is being renovated, no access to the books
for the time being, and online I found a Svan-Russian dictionary only
which I can't read. Even better would be a list of the Svan words
for the Etruscan words I interpreted in the light of my alternative
approach to early language, but I am happy with the word for horse
as a beginning.

Franz Gnaedinger

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The impasto horses on the rim of the Etruscan chalice from Nerce, Lazio,
confirm the word for sun in the sense of the sun horse AS CA BAL ushil.
The pair of lower horses - only head and neck visible - indicate midwinter,
December 21, New Year, and the pair of upper horses - fully visible -
midsummer, June 21, beginning of the second half of the year, so the sun
horse rises, climbing an ever higher trajectory, and becomes the summer
sun horse named by the Magdalenian formula CA BAL, sky CA hot BAL,
accounting for Latin caballus (etymology unexplained, says my dictionary)
Italian cavallo French cheval Spanish caballo.

The rim of the chalice can be seen as the year, the left semicircle as
the half year from midwinter to midsummer, the sun horse climbing,
and the right semicircle as the half year from midsummer to midwinter,
the sun horse returning backward, looking toward midsummer when it had
its full power.

Another confirmation for AS in context with the Etruscan sun horse comes
from the pair of terracotta stallions from the gable of the temple Ara
delle Regina in Tarquinia, winged horses ready to fly upward.

Upward AS plays a role in further compounds naming the horse. Magdalenian
had PAC for the common horse. The horse of the first Indo-European homeland
on the banks of the Amu Darya, centered in the triangle of Termez and Kunduz
and Kurgan T'upe, was called PAC AS, horse PAC upward AS, accounting for
Avestan aspa 'horse' and Sanskrit asva 'horse' - small pony-like horses
used for carrying loads up on a hill or a mountain slope. (The horse of
the second IE homeland in the Uralic steppes east of the Rha Volga, and
of the Pontic steppes west of the Rha Volga, was called by a phonetically
similar but semantically different compound, AC PAS, expanse of land with
water AC everywhere in a plain PAS - riding a horse you can get everywhere
PAS in the steppes AC ..., present in *h1ekwos Greek hippos Latin equus,
also in the name of the Gallo-Roman horse goddess Epona, and in Finnish
hevonen 'horse'. PIE derives Avestan aspa and Sanrkit asva from the same
root *h1ekwos, which I contest.) Then there was the winged horse PAC AS AS
Pegasos Pegasus, emphatic horse up up, originally naming the personified
hot summer wind Afghanetz that blows from the Aral Sea along the the Amu
Darya to the Hindukush, and then became the horse of poetry, testifying
(I believe) to an oral epic in that region by the title AD LAS Atlantis,
a vision of the first world as island oriented toward AS the central
world mountain LAS, and what became of the first world when the humans
began mining copper and tin, associated in the same mines in the Alai
Mountains above the Amu Darya, fragments of that epic surviving in the
oldest layer of Greek mythology.

AS PAC aspa asva
PAC AS AS Pegasos Pegasus
AS CA BAL ushil 'sun (horse)'

What is the Svan word for horse? I asked Dan Briggs for that word in
a separate message.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 9, 2016, 3:38:32 AM9/9/16
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SAI belongs to a permutation group of six words, comparative form of DAI
for a protected area given as tectiform signs in cave art, red ocher
dots for SAI and tectiform signs for DAI often associated. The combined
permutation group of DAI and SAI has a dozen words, and is part of the
biggest coherent group of Magdalenian words, in all seventy-two words.
Regarding DAI for a protected area, consider also Daidalos, Minoan
architect. SAI means life, existence, consider for example German Sein
'being, existence'. There might be an onomatopoeic origin of SAI,
from spitting, a healer shaman or shamaness desinfecting the wound of
a patient with spittle that has antiseptic properties, and in the technique
of cave painting so convincingly demonstrated by Michel Lorblanchet:
mix pigments with fat and spittle in your mouth and blow the soft mush
onto the cave wall, thus giving life and existence to the animals and
ideas you like to represent. Neolithic houses in Switzerland have been
decorated with red ocher dots, which I see as a blessing for its dwellers:
may you have many children, new life around you ... The red trefoil on
art from the Indus Valley would have much the same meaning: a long life,
a healthy and happy life, and many children ... Finally the toi toi toi
of actors going onstage imitates a triple spitting meaning good luck
- may I survive my stage fright, may it go well.

The oldest red ocher dots and hand impressions were found in Indochina,
some sixty thousand years old. The sound of spitting is the same in those
parts of the world.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 9, 2016, 4:10:04 AM9/9/16
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Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 9, 2016, 4:10:04 AM9/9/16
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Fri, 9 Sep 2016 00:38:29 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:

>On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 1:41:52 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
>> > > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
>> >
>> > All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
>> > here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
>> > is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
>> > I read as SAI for life,
>>
>> Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
>> is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.
>>
>> Even if it signified 'life' in a cave in Spain, there is no reason
>> to suppose that it also signified 'life' in a cave in China.
>
>SAI belongs to a permutation group of six words, comparative form of DAI
>for a protected area given as tectiform signs in cave art, red ocher
>dots for SAI and tectiform signs for DAI often associated. The combined
>permutation group of DAI and SAI has a dozen words, and is part of the
>biggest coherent group of Magdalenian words, in all seventy-two words.
>Regarding DAI for a protected area, consider also Daidalos, Minoan
>architect. SAI means life, existence, consider for example German Sein
>'being, existence'.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 9, 2016, 4:34:48 AM9/9/16
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SAI emphatic doubling SAI SAI *h1es *es sein, a case of oscillation within
the verbal morphospace.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 9, 2016, 8:52:02 AM9/9/16
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On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 3:38:32 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 1:41:52 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > > > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> > > > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
> > > All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
> > > here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
> > > is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
> > > I read as SAI for life,
> > Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
> > is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.
> > Even if it signified 'life' in a cave in Spain, there is no reason
> > to suppose that it also signified 'life' in a cave in China.
>
> SAI belongs to a permutation group of six words,

In human language there is no such thing as "permutation group."

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 9, 2016, 8:54:02 AM9/9/16
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On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 4:34:48 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 10:10:04 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Fri, 9 Sep 2016 00:38:29 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
> > <fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
> >
> > >On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 1:41:52 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:23:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > >> > On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 2:24:41 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > > You have _demonstrated_ no connection whatsoever between "cave art"
> > >> > > (as if it were one single thing) and language.
> > >> >
> > >> > All the time do I make connections between cave art and language, again
> > >> > here in this thread! The oldest element of cave art identified so far
> > >> > is a red ocher dot in the Altamira cave, some 41,000 years old, which
> > >> > I read as SAI for life,
> > >>
> > >> Even if it signified 'life' (for which there is no evidence), there
> > >> is no reason whatsoever to associate it with a sound SAI.
> > >>
> > >> Even if it signified 'life' in a cave in Spain, there is no reason
> > >> to suppose that it also signified 'life' in a cave in China.
> > >SAI belongs to a permutation group of six words ... SAI means life, existence, consider for example German Sein 'being, existence'.
> > In PIE, that was es-.
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sein#Etymology_1
> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sooth#English
>
> SAI emphatic doubling SAI SAI *h1es *es sein, a case of oscillation within
> the verbal morphospace.

In human language there is no such thing as "oscillation within the
verbal morphospace."

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 9, 2016, 9:05:04 AM9/9/16
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Fri, 9 Sep 2016 01:34:45 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
>> In PIE, that was es-.
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sein#Etymology_1
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sooth#English
>>
>
>SAI emphatic doubling SAI SAI *h1es *es sein, a case of oscillation within
>the verbal morphospace.

"Sein sein" does have a meaning in German, as has Dutch "zijn zijn",
but oscillations they are not. They simply mean: his being, his
existence, or (for masculin or neuter non-person nouns): its being,
its existence.

That the words are the same is a coincidence.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 9, 2016, 9:10:49 AM9/9/16
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>> > In PIE, that was es-.
>> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sein#Etymology_1
>> > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sooth#English
>>
>> SAI emphatic doubling SAI SAI *h1es *es sein, a case of oscillation within
>> the verbal morphospace.

Fri, 9 Sep 2016 05:53:59 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>In human language there is no such thing as "oscillation within the
>verbal morphospace."

Like, as they say in Facebook. Or on Facebook, if you like. Like.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Sep 9, 2016, 9:53:10 AM9/9/16
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On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 9:55:49 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:


I would help you if you weren't a crackpot.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 10, 2016, 3:37:28 AM9/10/16
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Promised picture http://www.seshat.ch/home/ushil.jpg below the impasto
chalice from Narce, Lazio, above a drawing, variant of the midsummer group
stallion god stallion

(numbers 5 and 10, ritual union of Uni and Tinia making the land fertile,
prediction regarding the long inscription on the recently discovered stele
from Poggio Buco)

The rim of the impasto chalice from Narce, Lazio, can be seen as year;
the pair of lower horses, only heads and necks visible, as midwinter,
December 21, New Year; and the group on the other side, stallion god
stallion, as midsummer, June 21, beginning of the second half of the year.

The god in the alternative drawing of the midsummer group raises his hands
and spreads his fingers, one hand referring to the five calendar periods
from midwinter to midsummer, 36 37 36 37 36 sum 182 days, the other hand
to the five periods from midsummer to midwinter, 37 36 37 36 37 sum 183
days, together a regular year of 365 days - one horse ascending, upward
AS, the other horse descending, backward, still looking upward AS ...

5 times 5 equals 25, and so does the sum of the numbers of the female
calendar periods 1 3 5 7 9. How many days are in 25 years? Begin with
365 days for one year and add repeatedly 1461 days for four years

365/1 (plus 1461/4) 1820/5 3287/9 4748/13 6209/17 7670/21 9131/25

25 years are practically 9,131 days - 5x5 regular years of 365 days
or 5x5x5 double periods of 73 days or 309 lunations (calculation omitted
here) plus 6 leap days.

The Etruscans believed that their reign will hold for one thousand years
(and were almost right with their prediction). 1,000 years are 40 times
25 years, or 365,240 days (not even two days five hours short of the
exact value).

Conclusion: the number huth 'five' could have played a special role in
the hypothetical religious calendar of the Etruscans, huth from KOD for
tent or hut, here an arbor in honor of Uni as successor of the Divine
Hind or Hind Woman of Magdalenian times; doubled sar 'ten', number of
her husband Tinia, sar an emphatic form of TYR for the one who overcomes
in the double sense of rule and give.

Seems there are five eyelets (a couple of them with rings) under the bowl
of the chalice, while the lower part of the stand is composed of ten pillars
evoking a round temple, perhaps the temple wherein a ritual union of Uni and
Tinia was performed in order to ensure the fertility of the land? enacted
by a priestess of Uni and a priest of Tinia?

If so, the recently discovered stele from Poggia Buco (some fifty kilometers
northwestwest of Narce) dedicated to Uni and Tinia might reveal details of
that ritual union. Predictions are not possible in Paleo-linguistics,
with the one exception when an ancient inscription is discovered. Here
we have such a case. I look forward to the transliteration and translation
of the stele.

By the way, I asked kindly for the horse word in Svan. No answer (apart
from a snotty one). People use sci.lang for power games, uninterested
in a scientific discussion. But no answer is also an answer. I focus on
Etruscan and give up on Svan.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 10, 2016, 3:47:39 AM9/10/16
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SAI SAI has various meanings, emphatic be it so, be it so, also six,
calendar period six in the Late Magdalenian calendar, and sex, hot month
number six dedicated to the the love goddess, in the Julian calendar reform
named for Julius Caesar, Julius July, his family having claimed to descend
from Venus. Looking backward in time instead of studying the rich legacy
of the past, cave art and rock art and mobile art, will lead you astray
forever. And an example of an oscillation. KOD means tent or hut, accounting
for English cot and cottage, shed, and city, also coat ('tent' around the
body) and head (casing of the mind), French château and cité English city,
German Kate 'hut' and Hütte 'hut', numerous derivatives in Sanskrit (wich
I listed up ten years ago), also neighborhood reduced to hood in the
language of hiphop and rap - hood close to the original KOD, the ancient
form nearly regained.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 10, 2016, 12:20:11 PM9/10/16
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Sat, 10 Sep 2016 00:47:35 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>SAI SAI has various meanings, emphatic be it so, be it so, also six,
>calendar period six in the Late Magdalenian calendar, and sex, hot month
>number six dedicated to the the love goddess, [...[

Sex and six are not etymologically connected:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexus#Latin
vs.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/six#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sex#Latin

If you want to know why sex, here is an explanation:
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/proq-sex.htm

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 11, 2016, 6:11:37 AM9/11/16
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