Language Evolution Blog

[Brian M. Scott]

Some folks here who don't already know about it may be
interested in Piotr Gąsiorowski's blog Language Evolution,
subtitled 'How and why language changes', at

<http://langevo.blogspot.com/>.

Brian

[Arnaud F.]

thanks

Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,

which lists Franco-Provençal into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with French...

A.

[gpi...@wa.amu.edu.pl]

On Monday, 4 February 2013 08:57:42 UTC+1, Arnaud F. wrote:

> Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,
>
> which lists Franco-Provençal into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with
> French...

I don't think it's an isolated idiosyncratic opinion:

"Franco-Provençal's name would suggest it is a transitional language between French and the Provençal dialect of Occitan, but it is not. It is first and foremost a northern Gallo-Romance language, separate from but most closely related to the Oïl language group which includes French. As a transitional language, Franco-Provençal transitions northern Gallo-Romance into Romansh to the east, the Gallo-Italian language Piemontese to the southeast, and finally the Vivaro-Alpine dialect of Occitan to the southwest."

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Provençal_language ]

I meant the (simplified and idealised) tree to be comprehensible to non-specialists, so I used "French" as a cover term for Oïl in general. That makes French and Franco-Provençal sister branches. You are entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I fail to see what is so funny about the pretty standard classification I adopted.

Piotr

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-02-08 08:01:57 +0000, gpi...@wa.amu.edu.pl said:

> On Monday, 4 February 2013 08:57:42 UTC+1, Arnaud F. wrote:
>
>> Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,
>>

>> which lists Franco-Proven�al into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with

>> French...
>
> I don't think it's an isolated idiosyncratic opinion:
>

> "Franco-Proven�al's name would suggest it is a transitional language
> between French and the Proven�al dialect of Occitan, but it is not. It

> is first and foremost a northern Gallo-Romance language, separate from

> but most closely related to the O�l language group which includes
> French. As a transitional language, Franco-Proven�al transitions

> northern Gallo-Romance into Romansh to the east, the Gallo-Italian
> language Piemontese to the southeast, and finally the Vivaro-Alpine
> dialect of Occitan to the southwest."
>

> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Proven�al_language ]

>
> I meant the (simplified and idealised) tree to be comprehensible to

> non-specialists, so I used "French" as a cover term for O�l in general.
> That makes French and Franco-Proven�al sister branches. You are

> entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I fail to see what is so
> funny about the pretty standard classification I adopted.

He means "funnily" in the sense of "that just shows how wrong you are,
Ant�nio". In other words it's a reference to a recent discussion about
whether Occitan exists: Ant�nio thinks it does; Arnaud disagrees. I
think his comment means, therefore, that he agrees with you. (If he
disagreed he'd say so in my more offensive terms.)

--
athel

[Arnaud F.]

Le vendredi 8 février 2013 09:28:09 UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2013-02-08 08:01:57 +0000, gpi...@wa.amu.edu.pl said:
>
>
>
> > On Monday, 4 February 2013 08:57:42 UTC+1, Arnaud F. wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,
>
> >>
>

> >> which lists Franco-Provençal into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with

>
> >> French...
>
> >
>
> > I don't think it's an isolated idiosyncratic opinion:
>
> >
>

> > "Franco-Provençal's name would suggest it is a transitional language
>
> > between French and the Provençal dialect of Occitan, but it is not. It

>
> > is first and foremost a northern Gallo-Romance language, separate from
>

> > but most closely related to the Oïl language group which includes
>
> > French. As a transitional language, Franco-Provençal transitions

>
> > northern Gallo-Romance into Romansh to the east, the Gallo-Italian
>
> > language Piemontese to the southeast, and finally the Vivaro-Alpine
>
> > dialect of Occitan to the southwest."
>
> >
>

> > [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Provençal_language ]

>
> >
>
> > I meant the (simplified and idealised) tree to be comprehensible to
>

> > non-specialists, so I used "French" as a cover term for Oïl in general.
>
> > That makes French and Franco-Provençal sister branches. You are

>
> > entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I fail to see what is so
>
> > funny about the pretty standard classification I adopted.
>
>
>
> He means "funnily" in the sense of "that just shows how wrong you are,
>

> António". In other words it's a reference to a recent discussion about
>
> whether Occitan exists: António thinks it does; Arnaud disagrees. I

>
> think his comment means, therefore, that he agrees with you. (If he
>
> disagreed he'd say so in my more offensive terms.)

***

yes Athel's interpretation is correct.

To summarize past posts, I've been arguing against that idea that Gallo-Romance in general, which personally I just call French, can be split up in two parts: namely a super Macro-Occitan à la Marques extending from the Ocean to the Alps, and a northern supposedly "restricted French" half.

That construction à la Marques is completely false. Even if it may be somewhat fashionable to break up French into little bits these days.

I agree of course that there's an obvious phonetic gradient in Gallo-Romance and that the more you move north, the more eroded good old Latin becomes.

But the fact remains that the internal structure of French dialects is not a north-south divide but an opposition between the huge bulk of Central French extending from Paris to Lyon and the waterbasins of Loire and Seine rivers and all other peripheral dialects, which all lack a number of key sound changes and typically have or don't have the exceptional palatalization of ka, ga into ch, dj, a typical feature of Central French.
In that respect it can noted that Franco-Provençal has this change but the result is spirant th, dh somewhat as in Spanish, instead of s(h)ibilants.
cabra > thebra

And it can be noted that dialects like normand and picard fail to have the typical Central French change: ka, ga > ch, dj; In that respect and many others, picard and northernmost chtimi dialects are just as aberrant as Gascon is.
Which means I also deny that the northern-half dialects add up to a coherent dialectal entity, supposedly "restricted French".

I've also been disagreeing with Marques' over extension of the word Occitan to include dialects like Gascon and Provençal which have their own traditional names and graphic norms and whose speakers adamantly reject inclusion into the "Macro-Occitanic" construction.
I've also disagreed with hacking off Auvergnat and Limousin from Central French in order to include them into the "Macro-Occitanic" construction.

So far nobody has been able to provide any indication that what southern dialects like Occitan, Gascon and Provençal share is anything but archaisms, and that they might share a number of key innnovations that would justify dealing with them as a genetic sub-entity, with its own life, separate from French as a whole.

I've also indicated that this "Macro-Occitanic" construction is a recent and political invention, which is not as innocent and innocuous as it claims to be.
Actually one more reason why many speakers of Provençal and Gascon reject it, in spite of their desire to keep their own "dialects" alive.

I've been accused of maintaining a supposedly "napoleonic" "ultra-nationalist" point of view, which is false. None of my arguments is based on politics, contrary to what happens with this "Macro-Occitanic" construction.

A.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 8 Feb 2013 02:10:20 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:

>To summarize past posts, I've been arguing against that idea that Gallo-Romance in general, which personally I just call French, can be split up in two parts: namely a super Macro-Occitan � la Marques extending from the Ocean to the Alps, and a northern supposedly "restricted French" half.
>
>That construction � la Marques is completely false. Even if it may be somewhat fashionable to break up French into little bits these days.

>
>I agree of course that there's an obvious phonetic gradient in Gallo-Romance and that the more you move north, the more eroded good old Latin becomes.
>
>But the fact remains that the internal structure of French dialects is not a north-south divide but an opposition between the huge bulk of Central French extending from Paris to Lyon and the waterbasins of Loire and Seine rivers and all other peripheral dialects, which all lack a number of key sound changes and typically have or don't have the exceptional palatalization of ka, ga into ch, dj, a typical feature of Central French.

>In that respect it can noted that Franco-Proven�al has this change but the result is spirant th, dh somewhat as in Spanish, instead of s(h)ibilants.
>cabra > thebra

In your view, are Catalan and Valencian Spanish, French or Catalan
dialects? Seeing the similarity between Catalan and Occitan (cf.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/catalan.htm
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/occitan.htm ) I think you only be
consistent by calling them French dialects.

[Arnaud F.]

Le vendredi 8 février 2013 11:18:01 UTC+1, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Fri, 8 Feb 2013 02:10:20 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
>
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:
>
>
>

> >To summarize past posts, I've been arguing against that idea that Gallo-Romance in general, which personally I just call French, can be split up in two parts: namely a super Macro-Occitan à la Marques extending from the Ocean to the Alps, and a northern supposedly "restricted French" half.
>
> >
>
> >That construction à la Marques is completely false. Even if it may be somewhat fashionable to break up French into little bits these days.

>
> >
>
> >I agree of course that there's an obvious phonetic gradient in Gallo-Romance and that the more you move north, the more eroded good old Latin becomes.
>
> >
>
> >But the fact remains that the internal structure of French dialects is not a north-south divide but an opposition between the huge bulk of Central French extending from Paris to Lyon and the waterbasins of Loire and Seine rivers and all other peripheral dialects, which all lack a number of key sound changes and typically have or don't have the exceptional palatalization of ka, ga into ch, dj, a typical feature of Central French.
>

> >In that respect it can noted that Franco-Provençal has this change but the result is spirant th, dh somewhat as in Spanish, instead of s(h)ibilants.

>
> >cabra > thebra
>
>
>
> In your view, are Catalan and Valencian Spanish, French or Catalan
>
> dialects? Seeing the similarity between Catalan and Occitan (cf.
>
> http://www.omniglot.com/writing/catalan.htm
>
> http://www.omniglot.com/writing/occitan.htm ) I think you only be
>
> consistent by calling them French dialects.

***

Catalan is usually considered to be a kind of Occitan (I mean lengodoucian) dialect with a quite heavy influence of Spanish and a couple of specific innovations like using "to go" for past instead of future.
It's on its way to becoming a full-blossomed language, though so far the EU has not accepted it among the languages spoken in the EU, and Spain no longer knows how to deal with it.

Catalanified orthography is one reason why the std "language" invented by the "Macro-Occitanic" militants was rejected by Gascon and Provençal speakers.
So I suppose there's something in Catalan that makes it too different.

I would personally not include Catalan into French, for linguistic, graphic, cultural and political reasons.
It remains to be determined to which extent the emergence of Catalan as a full-blossomed language can have an impact on the French side of the border.
I suppose Gascon and Provençal speakers are not interested in learning Catalan, but we may imagine that radios and TV chains in Catalan may attract whatever is left of Lengodoucian speakers. Many people in that area have at least a passive knowledge of Catalan. There's certainly some fertile ground on which Catalan may extend north in the historically occitan area in Languedoc.

A.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 8 Feb 2013 03:04:13 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:

>I would personally not include Catalan into French, for linguistic, graphic, cultural and political reasons.
>It remains to be determined to which extent the emergence of Catalan as a full-blossomed language can have an impact on the French side of the border.

>I suppose Gascon and Proven�al speakers are not interested in learning Catalan, but we may imagine that radios and TV chains in Catalan may attract whatever is left of Lengodoucian speakers. Many people in that area have at least a passive knowledge of Catalan. There's certainly some fertile ground on which Catalan may extend north in the historically occitan area in Languedoc.

Perhaps we can turn the whole area into a province called Pyreneos in
the pan-European state emerging in 2145. What do you think?

[Adam Funk]

Interesting stuff, thanks!


--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Verity Stob)

[Arnaud F.]

Le vendredi 8 février 2013 13:40:39 UTC+1, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Fri, 8 Feb 2013 03:04:13 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
>
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:
>
>
>
> >I would personally not include Catalan into French, for linguistic, graphic, cultural and political reasons.
>
> >It remains to be determined to which extent the emergence of Catalan as a full-blossomed language can have an impact on the French side of the border.
>

> >I suppose Gascon and Provençal speakers are not interested in learning Catalan, but we may imagine that radios and TV chains in Catalan may attract whatever is left of Lengodoucian speakers. Many people in that area have at least a passive knowledge of Catalan. There's certainly some fertile ground on which Catalan may extend north in the historically occitan area in Languedoc.

>
>
>
> Perhaps we can turn the whole area into a province called Pyreneos in
>
> the pan-European state emerging in 2145. What do you think?

**

There's no pan-European "state",

There are only USA banks, and CIA agents, on the prowl.

Plus idiots, and sell-out yellow-livers.

A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Feb 8, 6:04 am, "Arnaud F." <fournet.arn...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> I would personally not include Catalan into French, for linguistic, graphic, cultural and political reasons.

"Graphic, cultural, and political reasons" are supremely irrelevant to
language classification.

[Arnaud F.]

***

And what about linguistic reasons, fraud?

A.

[Ruud Harmsen]

<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:

>> Perhaps we can turn the whole area into a province called Pyreneos in
>> the pan-European state emerging in 2145. What do you think?

Fri, 8 Feb 2013 06:19:48 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."

>There's no pan-European "state",

Which of the five digits of 2145 do you want me to explain&nbsp;?

>There are only USA banks, and CIA agents, on the prowl.
>Plus idiots, and sell-out yellow-livers.

Quite so. Glad you said it.

[Arnaud F.]

***

Not sure Greek and Spanish people are that glad...

but of course, all the assholes from Nederland to Poland must be glad about the current situation.

A.

[Trond Engen]

Adam Funk:

> On 2013-02-04, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>> Some folks here who don't already know about it may be
>> interested in Piotr Gąsiorowski's blog Language Evolution,
>> subtitled 'How and why language changes', at
>>
>> <http://langevo.blogspot.com/>.
>
> Interesting stuff, thanks!

Yes it is! Nice and simple layout too. Too bad with that awful Blogspot
commenting interface.

--
Trond Engen

[Peter T. Daniels]

We've been waiting for you to present them, but you have offered
nothing but cultural and political reasons. Someone mentioned
something graphical, I think.

[Arnaud F.]

***

pfff,

I think I've well enough summarized my point of view, which is based on facts, linguistic facts, and is more or less the traditional point of view.
and as usual, the only thing you can do is your bad faith and autistic deafness.

You really think that the center/peripheral structure of French dialects is political??
This north-south divide is romantic and political bullshit.

A.

[António Marques]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2013-02-08 08:01:57 +0000, gpi...@wa.amu.edu.pl said:
>
>> On Monday, 4 February 2013 08:57:42 UTC+1, Arnaud F. wrote:
>>>> Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,

>>>>> which lists Franco-Provençal into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with

>>> French...
>>> I don't think it's an isolated idiosyncratic opinion:

>>> "Franco-Provençal's name would suggest it is a transitional language >
>>> between French and the Provençal dialect of Occitan, but it is not. It

>>> > is first and foremost a northern Gallo-Romance language, separate

>>>> from > but most closely related to the Oïl language group which
>>>> includes > French. As a transitional language, Franco-Provençal

>>>> transitions > northern Gallo-Romance into Romansh to the east, the
>>>> Gallo-Italian > language Piemontese to the southeast, and finally the
>>>> Vivaro-Alpine > dialect of Occitan to the southwest."

>>> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Provençal_language ]

>>> I meant the (simplified and idealised) tree to be comprehensible to >

>>> non-specialists, so I used "French" as a cover term for Oïl in general.
>>> > That makes French and Franco-Provençal sister branches. You are >

>>>> entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I fail to see what is so
>>>> > funny about the pretty standard classification I adopted.
>

> He means "funnily" in the sense of "that just shows how wrong you are, António"

I beg your pardon? My one and only mention of FP was to say it clustered
with French against Occitan.

>. In other words it's a reference to a recent discussion about whether Occitan exists:

Who's been discussing that? One might as well discuss whether England
exists.
I've been presenting some info about Occitan to some who have inquired on
it.
I noticed yaang has been saying things because I've read people who were
replying to him, but there would be no point or interest in entering a
conversation with him, all the more about an issue on which he's given
strong signs of knowing next to nothing. (For instance, he's been trying to
make much of ca -> cha, because it's all he knows about, oblivious of the
fact that it's a mere areal phenomenon, with very different phonetic
results in French and Occitan (S vs ts), and so old that it was obscured by
latter French developments (cf chef vs chap, and French kept only the
figurative meaning of the word). Now, what business would I have discussing
the indiscussable with such a person? Franz is at least imaginative, though
he used to be more.)
--
Sent from one of my newsreaders

[Arnaud F.]

***

Buffoon,

In one of your most insane and recent posts, you claimed to have heard people talking "Occitan" [sic] in the Alps and beyond Italian borders!!

Definitely a benchmark in sheer idiocy.

A.
***

>
>
>
> >. In other words it's a reference to a recent discussion about whether Occitan exists:
>
>
>
> Who's been discussing that? One might as well discuss whether England
>
> exists.
>
> I've been presenting some info about Occitan to some who have inquired on
>
> it.
>
> I noticed yaang has been saying things because I've read people who were
>
> replying to him, but there would be no point or interest in entering a
>
> conversation with him, all the more about an issue on which he's given
>
> strong signs of knowing next to nothing. (For instance, he's been trying to
>
> make much of ca -> cha, because it's all he knows about, oblivious of the
>
> fact that it's a mere areal phenomenon, with very different phonetic
>
> results in French and Occitan (S vs ts),

***

That change does not exist in Occitan,
How long will you misuse that word and apply it to dialects that have nothing to do with what Occitan really is?

what you claim is a "mere areal phenomenon" in complete denial of the obvious, is the touchstone change that identifies the bulk of Central French, and tears to shreds your inventions.

Besides it's obvious that ts is the intermediary stem from ky to s.
It's not another sound change.

A.
***

and so old that it was obscured by
>
> latter French developments (cf chef vs chap, and French kept only the
>
> figurative meaning of the word). Now, what business would I have discussing
>
> the indiscussable with such a person? Franz is at least imaginative, though
>
> he used to be more.)

***

You're a buffoon, heaping lies upon lies, misusing words, making a mess out of what is obvious, inventing that you hear people who speak "occitan" all about the place.

What don't you read what Blanchet says about Provençal and about politicized crap-mongers like you and their "Macro-Occitanic" myth?

A.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Fri, 8 Feb 2013 17:25:30 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:

>Buffoon,
>
>In one of your most insane and recent posts, you claimed to have heard people talking "Occitan" [sic] in the Alps and beyond Italian borders!!

In Italy, yes:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Occitania_blanck_map.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dialectes_de_l'occitan_selon_Pierre_Bec.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bec_supradialectal.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language

See also http://oc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acuèlh
http://oc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan
http://oc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan#Classificacion
==
La sola classificacion incontestada es aquela: l'occitan fa partida de
las lengas romanicas (eissidas del latin), que son una branca de las
lengas italicas (latin e divèrsas lengas anticas d'Itàlia), que son a
lor torn una branca de las lengas indoeuropèas.
==

There you have it, very little is uncontested, even in Occitan itself,
which to my surprise, I can read.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-02-09 01:06:32 +0000, Ant�nio Marques said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2013-02-08 08:01:57 +0000, gpi...@wa.amu.edu.pl said:
>>
>>> On Monday, 4 February 2013 08:57:42 UTC+1, Arnaud F. wrote:
>>>>> Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,

>>>>>> which lists Franco-Proven�al into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with
>>>> French...

>>>>> entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I fail to see what is so
>>>>>> funny about the pretty standard classification I adopted.
>>

>> He means "funnily" in the sense of "that just shows how wrong you are, Ant�nio"

>
> I beg your pardon? My one and only mention of FP was to say it clustered
> with French against Occitan.
>
>> . In other words it's a reference to a recent discussion about whether
>> Occitan exists:
>
> Who's been discussing that? One might as well discuss whether England
> exists.

By the time you posted this Arnaud had already confirmed that my
interpretation of his remark was correct. It's not surprising that it
wasn't obvious to Piotr what he meant, but I do find it odd that it
wasn't obvious to you.


> --
athel

[pauljk]

"Athel Cornish-Bowden" <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote in message
news:anmnki...@mid.individual.net...

Funny that.
pjk

P.S. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

[António Marques]

You can even find some of them on YouTube!
The usual name for the region is Valadas Occitanas. The Italians have no
problem whatsoever with them, go look for Valli Occitane.
A very well-known name in the cultural milieu is Ousitanio Vivo, which as
you can see has no qualms about expressing an Occitan identity by means of
the 19th-century French-inspired orthography.

[António Marques]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2013-02-09 01:06:32 +0000, António Marques said:
>
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> On 2013-02-08 08:01:57 +0000, gpi...@wa.amu.edu.pl said:
>>>>>> On Monday, 4 February 2013 08:57:42 UTC+1, Arnaud F. wrote:
>>>>>> Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,

>>>>>>> which lists Franco-Provençal into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with

>>>>> French...
>
>>>>>> entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I fail to see what is so
>>>>>>> funny about the pretty standard classification I adopted.

>>>>> He means "funnily" in the sense of "that just shows how wrong you are, António"

>>> I beg your pardon? My one and only mention of FP was to say it clustered
>> with French against Occitan.
>>>> . In other words it's a reference to a recent discussion about whether
>>>> >> Occitan exists:
>>> Who's been discussing that? One might as well discuss whether England
>> exists.
>
> By the time you posted this Arnaud had already confirmed that my
> interpretation of his remark was correct. It's not surprising that it
> wasn't obvious to Piotr what he meant, but I do find it odd that it wasn't obvious to you.

I still can't understand how Piotr's agreement with what I had said about
FP goes to show how wrong I was, even in yaangland.

[Arnaud F.]

Le dimanche 10 février 2013 02:19:52 UTC+1, António Marques a écrit :
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>

>

> > By the time you posted this Arnaud had already confirmed that my
>
> > interpretation of his remark was correct. It's not surprising that it
>
> > wasn't obvious to Piotr what he meant, but I do find it odd that it wasn't obvious to you.
>
>
>
> I still can't understand how Piotr's agreement with what I had said about
>
> FP goes to show how wrong I was, even in yaangland.

***

I'm afraid you never understand when you are wrong, kindof PTD-like autism.

A.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I didn't say you were wrong. I said that that was what Arnaud meant.


--
athel

[António Marques]

Oh, in a Piotr is saying the same so it must be wrong mood?
In that spirit, I guess I could say, while being perfectly honest, that I'm
far less troubled by having the French and Hindu chauvinists on the other
side of the fence than if they were on my side!

[Arnaud F.]

***

If you had rational scientific arguments in favor of your "occitanic" inventions, you would not have to resort to political insults.

The fact is anything you begin to describe something precise the whole BS goes bust.

A.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-02-11 03:39:11 +0100, Ant�nio Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>> On 2013-02-10 01:19:52 +0000, Ant�nio Marques said:
>>
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>>>> On 2013-02-09 01:06:32 +0000, Ant�nio Marques said:
>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2013-02-08 08:01:57 +0000, gpi...@wa.amu.edu.pl said:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 4 February 2013 08:57:42 UTC+1, Arnaud F. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,

>>>>>>>>>> which lists Franco-Proven�al into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with

>>>>>>>> French...
>>>>>>>>>>> entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I fail to see what is so
>>>>>>>>>> funny about the pretty standard classification I adopted.

>>>>>>>> He means "funnily" in the sense of "that just shows how wrong you are, Ant�nio"

>>>>>> I beg your pardon? My one and only mention of FP was to say it clustered
>>>>> with French against Occitan.
>>>>>>> . In other words it's a reference to a recent discussion about whether
>>>>>>>>> Occitan exists:
>>>>>> Who's been discussing that? One might as well discuss whether England
>>>>> exists.
>>>>>> By the time you posted this Arnaud had already confirmed that my
>>>> interpretation of his remark was correct. It's not surprising that it
>>>> wasn't obvious to Piotr what he meant, but I do find it odd that it >>
>>>> wasn't obvious to you.
>>>> I still can't understand how Piotr's agreement with what I had said about
>>> FP goes to show how wrong I was, even in yaangland.
>>
>> I didn't say you were wrong. I said that that was what Arnaud meant.
>
> Oh, in a Piotr is saying the same so it must be wrong mood?

Good grief, Ant�nio, you're still insisting on reading meanings that I
didn't express and didn't think.

> In that spirit, I guess I could say, while being perfectly honest, that I'm
> far less troubled by having the French and Hindu chauvinists on the other
> side of the fence than if they were on my side!


--

athel

[Arnaud F.]

Le lundi 11 février 2013 14:25:25 UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :

> On 2013-02-11 03:39:11 +0100, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> said:
>

>
> >>>> I still can't understand how Piotr's agreement with what I had said about
>
> >>> FP goes to show how wrong I was, even in yaangland.
>
> >>
>
> >> I didn't say you were wrong. I said that that was what Arnaud meant.
>
> >
>
> > Oh, in a Piotr is saying the same so it must be wrong mood?
>
>
>

> Good grief, António, you're still insisting on reading meanings that I

>
> didn't express and didn't think.
>

***

People like Bigoted Skatosaurus Rex PTD or bakaliau-eating Marques who sell shiat and fuss most of time always have something to blame other people with and always complain they don't understand what other people actually said or meant.

As they have nothing positive and constructive to say, other people are an issue. Screensmokes, empty talk, ghost polemics, inventions and BS are their play ground.

A.

[António Marques]

Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 2013-02-11 03:39:11 +0100, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> said:
>
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>>> On 2013-02-10 01:19:52 +0000, António Marques said:
>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>>>>> On 2013-02-09 01:06:32 +0000, António Marques said:
>>>>>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2013-02-08 08:01:57 +0000, gpi...@wa.amu.edu.pl said:
>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 4 February 2013 08:57:42 UTC+1, Arnaud F. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Quite funnily, he has a tree of Romance languages,

>>>>>>>>>>> which lists Franco-Provençal into a Northern Gallo-Romance subgroup with

>>>>>>>>> French...
>>>>>>>>>>>> entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I fail to see what is so
>>>>>>>>>>> funny about the pretty standard classification I adopted.

>>>>>>>>> He means "funnily" in the sense of "that just shows how wrong you are, António"

>>>>>>> I beg your pardon? My one and only mention of FP was to say it clustered
>>>>>> with French against Occitan.
>>>>>>>> . In other words it's a reference to a recent discussion about whether
>>>>>>>>>> Occitan exists:
>>>>>>> Who's been discussing that? One might as well discuss whether England
>>>>>> exists.
>>>>>>> By the time you posted this Arnaud had already confirmed that my
>>>>> interpretation of his remark was correct. It's not surprising that it
>>>>> wasn't obvious to Piotr what he meant, but I do find it odd that it >>
>>>>> wasn't obvious to you.
>>>>> I still can't understand how Piotr's agreement with what I had said about
>>>> FP goes to show how wrong I was, even in yaangland.
>>>>> I didn't say you were wrong. I said that that was what Arnaud meant.
>>> Oh, in a Piotr is saying the same so it must be wrong mood?
>

> Good grief, António, you're still insisting on reading meanings that I

> didn't express and didn't think.

For Heaven's Sake, Athel, I'm not talking about you. You suggested a
motivation for A.'s comment, which was apparently correct. So your
interpretation is 100% correct and justified. So what's left to determine
is the way AF operated. I see the following possibilities:

- A. somehow misread me and saw Piotr's take on the issue as contrary to
mine
- A. Is as fond of Piotr as of evvery one else A. deals with here, and saw
Piotr's agreement with me as proof we're both wrong

Because, it's never too much to stress, Piotr's characterisation of FP here
is one I couldn't be more in agreement with. I stress that because, from
your original explanation to Piotr, I think Piotr might have had the
opposite impression.

[Arnaud F.]

***

somehow misread... good joke,

In one of your most insane posts here, you claimed you had heard Occitan [sic] spoken beyond the border between France and Italy, in the Alps !!!
A geolinguistic wonder of high magnitude!!

A.
***

>
> - A. Is as fond of Piotr as of evvery one else A. deals with here, and saw
>
> Piotr's agreement with me as proof we're both wrong
>

***

I definitely think you're just selling inventions and mythomaniac claims,

I consider Piotr just added a FWIW graph in his blog and does not have political and insane annexionistic agendas to sell about French dialects.

A.
***

>
>
> Because, it's never too much to stress, Piotr's characterisation of FP here
>
> is one I couldn't be more in agreement with. I stress that because, from
>
> your original explanation to Piotr, I think Piotr might have had the
>
> opposite impression.

***

While going thru Piotr's blog, I just happened to notice he had a tree on his blog and I found it quite interesting to point that, and incidentally that tree was in contradiction with your claims at that time.
Which is clearly an indication that the structure of Gallo-Romance dialects is not all stable from one source to the other, contrary to your mythomaniac claims.

a.

[António Marques]

? How did you manage to miss the rest of the information I provided on that
subject?
And are you really unaware that both FP and Occitan are spoken well into
the Italian side of the border? Perhaps you want to look at the Italian
laws recognising them?Do you need someone to email you folklore CDs? What
did you expect, that Piedmontese began at the border?

More to the point, what's all that got to do with the fact that FP and
French are closer to each other than any of them is to Occitan?

[Arnaud F.]

Le mardi 12 février 2013 02:07:25 UTC+1, António Marques a écrit :

> "Arnaud F." <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>

>
> And are you really unaware that both FP and Occitan are spoken well into
>
> the Italian side of the border?

****

Pfff...

Occitan spoken on the Italian side of the border...

Nonsensical idiocy of colossal magnitude.

I'm just bored of reading these idiocies.

A.
***

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:11:54 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:

>Occitan spoken on the Italian side of the border...
>
>Nonsensical idiocy of colossal magnitude.

I showed you these maps before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Occitania_blanck_map.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dialectes_de_l'occitan_selon_Pierre_Bec.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivaroalpenc
==
Vivaro-Alpine is spoken in Southern France and North-Western Italy,
and in the remote Guardia Piemontese, Calabria, where it is known as
gardiol.
==

[Arnaud F.]

Le mardi 12 février 2013 09:07:05 UTC+1, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:11:54 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
>
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:
>
>
>
> >Occitan spoken on the Italian side of the border...
>
> >
>
> >Nonsensical idiocy of colossal magnitude.
>
>
>
> I showed you these maps before:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Occitania_blanck_map.PNG
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dialectes_de_l'occitan_selon_Pierre_Bec.jpg
>

***

I completely reject the misuse of the word "Occitan" to describe anything else but Lengodoucian.

A.
***

[Ruud Harmsen]

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 01:49:27 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:

>I completely reject the misuse of the word "Occitan" to describe anything else but Lengodoucian.

I don't care what anybody calls it, the point is "do dialects extend
across the French-Italian border?". Looking at those maps, it seems
language scolars agree they do.

[Arnaud F.]

***

fallacy,

some militants of hyper-occitanism hijack wikipedia as their playground.

A.

[bruce bowser]

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 5:00:48 AM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 01:49:27 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:
> >I completely reject the misuse of the word "Occitan" to describe anything else but Lengodoucian.
> I don't care what anybody calls it, the point is "do dialects extend
> across the French-Italian border?".

Because of more tunnels between cities and towns in Italy, France and Switzerland? [På grund af flere tunneler mellem byer og byer en Italien, Frankrig, Schweiz]?