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AI tackling the Voynich manuscript; it appears to be in Hebrew
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Tilde
Jun 24, 2018, 11:25:18 PM6/24/18
to
Hmmm
https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
Computing scientists at the University of Alberta are using artificial
intelligence to decipher an ancient manuscript.
The mysterious text in the 15th-century Voynich manuscript has plagued
historians and cryptographers since its discovery in the 19th century.
Recently, U of A computing science professor Greg Kondrak, an expert in
natural language processing, and graduate student Bradley Hauer used
artificial intelligence to decode the ambiguities in human language using
the Voynich manuscript as a case study.
Their first step was to address the language of origin, which is
enciphered on hundreds of delicate vellum pages with accompanying
illustrations.
Kondrak and Hauer used samples of 400 different languages from the
“Universal Declaration of Human Rights” to systematically identify the
language. They initially hypothesized that the Voynich manuscript was
written in Arabic but after running their algorithms, it turned out that
the most likely language was Hebrew.
...
Kondrak and Hauer hypothesized the manuscript was created using
alphagrams, defining one phrase with another, exemplary of the ambiguities
in human language. Assuming that, they tried to come up with an algorithm
to decipher that type of scrambled text.
“It turned out that over 80 per cent of the words were in a Hebrew
dictionary, but we didn’t know if they made sense together,” said Kondrak.
After unsuccessfully seeking Hebrew scholars to validate their findings,
the scientists turned to Google Translate.
“It came up with a sentence that is grammatical, and you can interpret
it,” said Kondrak. “'She made recommendations to the priest, man of the
house and me and people.' It’s a kind of strange sentence to start a
manuscript but it definitely makes sense.”
Without historians of ancient Hebrew, Kondrak explained, the full meaning
of the Voynich manuscript will remain a mystery. He said he is looking
forward to applying the algorithms he and Hauer developed to other ancient
manuscripts.
...
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
Decoding Anagrammed Texts Written in an Unknown Language and Script
Bradley Hauer and Grzegorz Kondrak
Department of Computing Science
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada
Abstract
Algorithmic decipherment is a prime example of a truly unsupervised
problem. The first step in the decipherment process is the identification
of the encrypted language. We propose three methods for determining the
source language of a document enciphered with a monoalphabetic
substitution cipher. The best method achieves 97% accuracy on 380
languages. We then present an approach to decoding anagrammed substitution
ciphers, in which the letters within words have been arbitrarily
transposed. It obtains the average decryption word accuracy of 93% on a
set of 50 ciphertexts in 5 languages. Finally, we report the results on
the Voynich manuscript, an unsolved fifteenth century cipher, which
suggest Hebrew as the language of the document.
...
https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
Computing scientists at the University of Alberta are using artificial
intelligence to decipher an ancient manuscript.
The mysterious text in the 15th-century Voynich manuscript has plagued
historians and cryptographers since its discovery in the 19th century.
Recently, U of A computing science professor Greg Kondrak, an expert in
natural language processing, and graduate student Bradley Hauer used
artificial intelligence to decode the ambiguities in human language using
the Voynich manuscript as a case study.
Their first step was to address the language of origin, which is
enciphered on hundreds of delicate vellum pages with accompanying
illustrations.
Kondrak and Hauer used samples of 400 different languages from the
“Universal Declaration of Human Rights” to systematically identify the
language. They initially hypothesized that the Voynich manuscript was
written in Arabic but after running their algorithms, it turned out that
the most likely language was Hebrew.
...
Kondrak and Hauer hypothesized the manuscript was created using
alphagrams, defining one phrase with another, exemplary of the ambiguities
in human language. Assuming that, they tried to come up with an algorithm
to decipher that type of scrambled text.
“It turned out that over 80 per cent of the words were in a Hebrew
dictionary, but we didn’t know if they made sense together,” said Kondrak.
After unsuccessfully seeking Hebrew scholars to validate their findings,
the scientists turned to Google Translate.
“It came up with a sentence that is grammatical, and you can interpret
it,” said Kondrak. “'She made recommendations to the priest, man of the
house and me and people.' It’s a kind of strange sentence to start a
manuscript but it definitely makes sense.”
Without historians of ancient Hebrew, Kondrak explained, the full meaning
of the Voynich manuscript will remain a mystery. He said he is looking
forward to applying the algorithms he and Hauer developed to other ancient
manuscripts.
...
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
Decoding Anagrammed Texts Written in an Unknown Language and Script
Bradley Hauer and Grzegorz Kondrak
Department of Computing Science
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Canada
Abstract
Algorithmic decipherment is a prime example of a truly unsupervised
problem. The first step in the decipherment process is the identification
of the encrypted language. We propose three methods for determining the
source language of a document enciphered with a monoalphabetic
substitution cipher. The best method achieves 97% accuracy on 380
languages. We then present an approach to decoding anagrammed substitution
ciphers, in which the letters within words have been arbitrarily
transposed. It obtains the average decryption word accuracy of 93% on a
set of 50 ciphertexts in 5 languages. Finally, we report the results on
the Voynich manuscript, an unsolved fifteenth century cipher, which
suggest Hebrew as the language of the document.
...
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 25, 2018, 3:04:37 AM6/25/18
to
On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 5:25:18 AM UTC+2, Tilde wrote:
>
> After unsuccessfully seeking Hebrew scholars to validate their findings,
> the scientists turned to Google Translate.
>
> “It came up with a sentence that is grammatical, and you can interpret
> it,” said Kondrak. “'She made recommendations to the priest, man of the
> house and me and people.' It’s a kind of strange sentence to start a
> manuscript but it definitely makes sense.”
The usual problem. Decipherers give one single sentence, or just a few words,
>
> After unsuccessfully seeking Hebrew scholars to validate their findings,
> the scientists turned to Google Translate.
>
> “It came up with a sentence that is grammatical, and you can interpret
> it,” said Kondrak. “'She made recommendations to the priest, man of the
> house and me and people.' It’s a kind of strange sentence to start a
> manuscript but it definitely makes sense.”
and then claim to have found the right approach. Never are we given the
transliteration of a whole page, let alone the translation of a whole page.
The assumption is: A) it was written in one language, and B) it must make
sense in that language. No, it is an exercise in automatic writing, which
you can easily see once you achieve a pronounceable transliteration, and
words from many languages have been sprinkled over the meaningless lines.
In my opinion the Voynich ms is a fake report from an expedition to the
Southern Seas and discovery of New Atlantis by Bacon, written and drawn
after 1604, when he was fired as prime minister, probably composed in
a monastery in Northern Italy, district of Bergamo, that monastery being
depicted in the ms, the occasional allusions to real words in Latin, Italian,
French, German and English and maybe further languages alluding to the wish
of rejuvenation, and the drawings proposing a new method of combining plants
under the microscope, so that helpful properties of several plants can be
combined in a new mixed plant, while nocive properties can be excluded -
which we now do with genetic engineering. And the Voynich reveals a belief
in evolution, which was revolutionary for 1604, and dangerous to convey in
openly understandable language.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 4:00:03 AM6/25/18
to
Sun, 24 Jun 2018 21:25:14 -0600: Tilde <inv...@invalid.invalid>
scribeva:
>“It came up with a sentence that is grammatical, and you can interpret
>it,” said Kondrak. “'She made recommendations to the priest, man of the
>house and me and people.' It’s a kind of strange sentence to start a
>manuscript but it definitely makes sense.”
That sentence is in the same 'lunar' style as the strangely
philosophical texts that Google Translate generated from my 'Greek'
Interlingua texts.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
scribeva:
>“It came up with a sentence that is grammatical, and you can interpret
>it,” said Kondrak. “'She made recommendations to the priest, man of the
>house and me and people.' It’s a kind of strange sentence to start a
>manuscript but it definitely makes sense.”
philosophical texts that Google Translate generated from my 'Greek'
Interlingua texts.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 4:00:03 AM6/25/18
to
Sun, 24 Jun 2018 21:25:14 -0600: Tilde <inv...@invalid.invalid>
scribeva:
[...]
scribeva:
https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
[...]
>“It turned out that over 80 per cent of the words were in a Hebrew
>dictionary, but we didn’t know if they made sense together,” said Kondrak.
Really? With all those strange repetitions of the same characters in
>dictionary, but we didn’t know if they made sense together,” said Kondrak.
Voynich, that cannot occur in Hebrew words?
>After unsuccessfully seeking Hebrew scholars to validate their findings,
>the scientists turned to Google Translate.
I encoded texts in Interlingua (a language that GT does not know) in
Greek script (a language that GT does know, but Interlingua of course
is not Greek), and GT managed to 'translate' that into 'English' that
seems grammatical at first sight, but which is completely nonsensical
on closer inspection.
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en05.htm
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Frudhar.com%2Ftechnica%2Fgrviarti%2Fia-Grek.htm
==
Take care of the rotors, rotate all the way, fill in the serial
numbers of the rods, and trim them to a flat terracotta.
How many times did you come to work? You can also take a walk in the
center of the city, take a walk or take a stroll along the street and
enjoy the masseuse, the same day, even in the evenings. Let us know
what to do next. Fenoral spindle mowers, but other types of mowers.
==
Is that a 'decoding' of my mysterious text in interlingua? No, it is
not, the original is not so weird at all, but makes sense:
http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia-Grek.htm
http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia.htm
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 6:20:44 AM6/25/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 00:04:35 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>The usual problem. Decipherers give one single sentence, or just a few words,
>and then claim to have found the right approach.
No. Read the PDF. I am doing that now.
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>The usual problem. Decipherers give one single sentence, or just a few words,
>and then claim to have found the right approach.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 6:25:03 AM6/25/18
to
>The assumption is: A) it was written in one language, and B) it must make
>sense in that language.
No. Read the PDF.
>sense in that language.
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
"Decoding Anagrammed Texts Written in an Unknown Language and Script"
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 6:25:03 AM6/25/18
to
>In my opinion the Voynich ms is a fake report from an expedition to the
>Southern Seas and discovery of New Atlantis by Bacon, written and drawn
>after 1604,
C14 dating gives: 1400-1438. Read the PDF:
>Southern Seas and discovery of New Atlantis by Bacon, written and drawn
>after 1604,
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
("Decoding Anagrammed Texts Written in an Unknown Language and
Script")
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 6:30:03 AM6/25/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 09:57:08 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
(according to an unknown alphabet) PER WORD. They call that
anagramming in the PDF. Interesting idea. I think English and
Interlingua etc. would still be readible if you'd do that do those
languages.
aaegglnsu.
Or maybe usnlggeaa, so the most frequent letters tend to be repeated
towards the end. No. Yes, if the sorting order is letter frequency.
scribeva:
>Really? With all those strange repetitions of the same characters in
>Voynich, that cannot occur in Hebrew words?
Which perhaps can be explained as the result of alphabetic sorting
>Voynich, that cannot occur in Hebrew words?
(according to an unknown alphabet) PER WORD. They call that
anagramming in the PDF. Interesting idea. I think English and
Interlingua etc. would still be readible if you'd do that do those
languages.
aaegglnsu.
Or maybe usnlggeaa, so the most frequent letters tend to be repeated
towards the end. No. Yes, if the sorting order is letter frequency.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 25, 2018, 7:23:35 AM6/25/18
to
On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 3:04:37 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> The usual problem. Decipherers give one single sentence, or just a few words,
> and then claim to have found the right approach.
Just like EVERY one of the hundreds of attempts at the Phaistos Disk.
> The usual problem. Decipherers give one single sentence, or just a few words,
> and then claim to have found the right approach.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 8:50:03 AM6/25/18
to
> https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
> https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
[Open e-mail to Greg Kondrak, PhD, and Bradley Hauer, also published
here: rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en06.htm]
Dear Sirs,
In Usenet Group sci.lang someone referred to your research on the
Voynich manuscript, as described in
https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
("Using AI to uncover the mystery of an ancient manuscript", January
24, 2018) and
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
("Decoding Anagrammed Texts Written in an Unknown Language and
Script"). This Usenet discussion (including my comments) can be found
in Google Groups here:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.lang/jlWEsHSdsRw/UTI4hmBEBAAJ .
You research is certainly interesting and important, but with all due
respect, I think that regarding the use of Google Translate (page 10,
section 5.4), you are not on the right track. That's because for
completely different and non-scientific reasons (fascination with
scripts; boredom with what I should actually have been doing at the
time; nostalgia for my C programming days), I happened to have done
something similar to what you did:
I devised some schemes for writing Interlingua (a language that Google
Translate does not support) in Greek script (in ways that make it
immediately clear to human observers, that the result cannot possibly
be Greek), and fed that 'Greek' to Google Translate. Surprisingly, the
result is English that is often grammatical (or nearly so), and on
superficial inspection, even seems to contain many interesting
philosophical thoughts. If you look closer though, you will see that
it is complete nonsense.
If we replace Interlingua with Hebrew, and the script and possible
encodings in the Voynich manuscript with my Greek encoding schemes, we
see the parallels. And just like the English I obtained from Google
Translate does not reveal what my Interlingua originals were about, I
think your results do not give us more insight into the meaning of the
Voynich manuscript, and do not prove that it was originally in Hebrew.
What the results do show, is a shortcoming of Deep Learning techniques
(as now employed by Google Translate and DeepL), which can produce
seemingly sensible output from invalid input, if the invalidity of
that input is not detected in a preliminary step in the translation
algorithm.
The point is my 'Greek' Interlingua wasn't Greek, but GT assumed that
it was. And my original Interlingua texts weren't philosophical at
all: one is about a car journey in France, during which I discovered a
nice programme on a French classical music station, and I drank coffee
with my wife; the other is about muscle and bones problems people may
develop when residing in a spaceship without gravity, and my amazement
that they don't let the spacecraft rotate like a big bicycle wheel, so
artificial gravity would result.
GT's 'translations' give a completely different and therefore false
impression of the contents.
Regards,
Hyperlinks:
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en05.htm
http://rudhar.com/musica/frmusiq.htm
http://rudhar.com/musica/frmusih.htm
http://rudhar.com/musica/frmusif.htm
http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia.htm
http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia-Grek
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ia.htm
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ia023.htm
> https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
[Open e-mail to Greg Kondrak, PhD, and Bradley Hauer, also published
here: rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en06.htm]
Dear Sirs,
In Usenet Group sci.lang someone referred to your research on the
Voynich manuscript, as described in
https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
("Using AI to uncover the mystery of an ancient manuscript", January
24, 2018) and
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
("Decoding Anagrammed Texts Written in an Unknown Language and
Script"). This Usenet discussion (including my comments) can be found
in Google Groups here:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.lang/jlWEsHSdsRw/UTI4hmBEBAAJ .
You research is certainly interesting and important, but with all due
respect, I think that regarding the use of Google Translate (page 10,
section 5.4), you are not on the right track. That's because for
completely different and non-scientific reasons (fascination with
scripts; boredom with what I should actually have been doing at the
time; nostalgia for my C programming days), I happened to have done
something similar to what you did:
I devised some schemes for writing Interlingua (a language that Google
Translate does not support) in Greek script (in ways that make it
immediately clear to human observers, that the result cannot possibly
be Greek), and fed that 'Greek' to Google Translate. Surprisingly, the
result is English that is often grammatical (or nearly so), and on
superficial inspection, even seems to contain many interesting
philosophical thoughts. If you look closer though, you will see that
it is complete nonsense.
If we replace Interlingua with Hebrew, and the script and possible
encodings in the Voynich manuscript with my Greek encoding schemes, we
see the parallels. And just like the English I obtained from Google
Translate does not reveal what my Interlingua originals were about, I
think your results do not give us more insight into the meaning of the
Voynich manuscript, and do not prove that it was originally in Hebrew.
What the results do show, is a shortcoming of Deep Learning techniques
(as now employed by Google Translate and DeepL), which can produce
seemingly sensible output from invalid input, if the invalidity of
that input is not detected in a preliminary step in the translation
algorithm.
The point is my 'Greek' Interlingua wasn't Greek, but GT assumed that
it was. And my original Interlingua texts weren't philosophical at
all: one is about a car journey in France, during which I discovered a
nice programme on a French classical music station, and I drank coffee
with my wife; the other is about muscle and bones problems people may
develop when residing in a spaceship without gravity, and my amazement
that they don't let the spacecraft rotate like a big bicycle wheel, so
artificial gravity would result.
GT's 'translations' give a completely different and therefore false
impression of the contents.
Regards,
Hyperlinks:
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en05.htm
http://rudhar.com/musica/frmusiq.htm
http://rudhar.com/musica/frmusih.htm
http://rudhar.com/musica/frmusif.htm
http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia.htm
http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia-Grek
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ia.htm
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ia023.htm
Yusuf B Gursey
Jun 25, 2018, 9:39:14 AM6/25/18
to
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 9:50:05 AM6/25/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 04:23:34 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
The paper is quite interesting. That part where they feed a (one!)
'Hebrew' sentence to Google Translate is at the end, and is hardly a
part of the investigation itself
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
'Hebrew' sentence to Google Translate is at the end, and is hardly a
part of the investigation itself
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 10:05:04 AM6/25/18
to
Duration of the contract is 3 quarters of the year, with a minimum of
6 cents, and a maximum of 10 cigarettes per day, up to 3.5 cubic
meters.
[...]
The cost of the purchase of the product is after the expense.
Characteristics of the year 2009 Shahnaz Datasheets are used to
calculate the cost of each month.
(From: Interlingua 'Greek' S&R'd to Arabic script, translated as if
Persian by Googe Translate.)
6 cents, and a maximum of 10 cigarettes per day, up to 3.5 cubic
meters.
[...]
The cost of the purchase of the product is after the expense.
Characteristics of the year 2009 Shahnaz Datasheets are used to
calculate the cost of each month.
(From: Interlingua 'Greek' S&R'd to Arabic script, translated as if
Persian by Googe Translate.)
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 25, 2018, 10:36:49 AM6/25/18
to
did you tell it that? (Or maybe you included some Persian-only letters.)
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 12:50:53 PM6/25/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 07:36:47 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
I told it that, because it is obviously neither Farsi nor Arabic. It
is Interlingua which I converted to Greek script with one more or less
making scheme (I have 3 variants to choose from now), after which I
changed everything that starts with  (the start of entities for
Greek Unicode characters) to same but starting  (the series for
Arabic). (I really wanted Hebrew, but as that starts at 059, it
requires some calcuations that I didn't want to spend time on now).
The results makes no sense, interpreted in any language, because my
conversion of 'Greek' to 'Arabic' was done without looking at the
actual letters and their relation to the underlying Interlingua at
all. Nevertheless, Google Translate manages to produce at least some
'English' sentences from it. But they are complete gobbledegook, and
they bear no relation to the Interlingua original at all. Which was
the point I was trying to make.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
is Interlingua which I converted to Greek script with one more or less
making scheme (I have 3 variants to choose from now), after which I
changed everything that starts with  (the start of entities for
Greek Unicode characters) to same but starting  (the series for
Arabic). (I really wanted Hebrew, but as that starts at 059, it
requires some calcuations that I didn't want to spend time on now).
The results makes no sense, interpreted in any language, because my
conversion of 'Greek' to 'Arabic' was done without looking at the
actual letters and their relation to the underlying Interlingua at
all. Nevertheless, Google Translate manages to produce at least some
'English' sentences from it. But they are complete gobbledegook, and
they bear no relation to the Interlingua original at all. Which was
the point I was trying to make.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 25, 2018, 2:41:00 PM6/25/18
to
"colorless green ideas."
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 3:20:04 PM6/25/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 18:49:07 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>which I converted to Greek script with one more or less
>making scheme
More or less SENSE making scheme.
scribeva:
>which I converted to Greek script with one more or less
>making scheme
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 3:25:03 PM6/25/18
to
>> >On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 10:05:04 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Duration of the contract is 3 quarters of the year, with a minimum of
>> >> 6 cents, and a maximum of 10 cigarettes per day, up to 3.5 cubic
>> >> meters.
>> >> [...]
>> >> The cost of the purchase of the product is after the expense.
>> >> Characteristics of the year 2009 Shahnaz Datasheets are used to
>> >> calculate the cost of each month.
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> Duration of the contract is 3 quarters of the year, with a minimum of
>> >> 6 cents, and a maximum of 10 cigarettes per day, up to 3.5 cubic
>> >> meters.
>> >> [...]
>> >> The cost of the purchase of the product is after the expense.
>> >> Characteristics of the year 2009 Shahnaz Datasheets are used to
>> >> calculate the cost of each month.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>The two sentences you quote are lovely poetry. Much lovelier than
>"colorless green ideas."
O yes. There are many more in
>"colorless green ideas."
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en05.htm#Ex01 and below.
And in
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Frudhar.com%2Ftechnica%2Fgrviarti%2Fia-Grek.htm
from http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia.htm .
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 3:30:03 PM6/25/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 21:23:44 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
witness with a divine bosom. You are only coming up, all day. If you
are not in a position to do so, you will not be able to do so.
Protect the spinal cord from the spinal cord or from the sprays or
from the tissues; Explanation of the wounded fibers. It is the most
important thing to do, but it does not matter whether or not it is
based on any of the above mentioned terminals. As a matter of fact, in
the middle of a week, we have only a few moments.
Excessive bumps If you inseminate only in the middle, do not worry.
If you do not have an in-depth, 60-year-old woman, she's a vampire,
and she's got a lot of money, she's got loads of money, incoming
mailboxes. They have sex with the sexes, but they have sex with the
same measure of the diameters, and they have not gone anywhere.
Do you want to know how much you want to do? If you have a
cross-section, you will be given a barrel. Those who have been born
have been born in the same city.
Somole scanned the website; The barrel roll has been fastened, as long
as it has been trimmed, but you have not left it to the left or to the
other side of the road, as far as you can see. In the middle of a long
relay, a long line of rectangular altimeters is a stationary
star-shaped star.
Since other memories have not yet been uploaded to the 10th
anniversary, there has been a library of literary astronauts with
aeronautical astronauts, all of which have been published in the past.
Inlove you have all the spell-shaped posts of an angel-style sparkle,
in the same way as a rocker.
Take care of the rotors, rotate all the way, fill in the serial
numbers of the rods, and trim them to a flat terracotta.
How many times did you come to work? You can also take a walk in the
center of the city, take a walk or take a stroll along the street and
enjoy the masseuse, the same day, even in the evenings. Let us know
what to do next. Fenoral spindle mowers, but other types of mowers.
You can also make copies of works of artwork, but you have to do the
same thing, so that you can find out about everyday life.
Something has been done in front of real-life singles too; Other
formulas are in front of you.
scribeva:
>And in
>https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Frudhar.com%2Ftechnica%2Fgrviarti%2Fia-Grek.htm
>from http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia.htm .
The abbey of the blessed bearer of the orthodox has been given a
>https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Frudhar.com%2Ftechnica%2Fgrviarti%2Fia-Grek.htm
>from http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia.htm .
witness with a divine bosom. You are only coming up, all day. If you
are not in a position to do so, you will not be able to do so.
Protect the spinal cord from the spinal cord or from the sprays or
from the tissues; Explanation of the wounded fibers. It is the most
important thing to do, but it does not matter whether or not it is
based on any of the above mentioned terminals. As a matter of fact, in
the middle of a week, we have only a few moments.
Excessive bumps If you inseminate only in the middle, do not worry.
If you do not have an in-depth, 60-year-old woman, she's a vampire,
and she's got a lot of money, she's got loads of money, incoming
mailboxes. They have sex with the sexes, but they have sex with the
same measure of the diameters, and they have not gone anywhere.
Do you want to know how much you want to do? If you have a
cross-section, you will be given a barrel. Those who have been born
have been born in the same city.
Somole scanned the website; The barrel roll has been fastened, as long
as it has been trimmed, but you have not left it to the left or to the
other side of the road, as far as you can see. In the middle of a long
relay, a long line of rectangular altimeters is a stationary
star-shaped star.
Since other memories have not yet been uploaded to the 10th
anniversary, there has been a library of literary astronauts with
aeronautical astronauts, all of which have been published in the past.
Inlove you have all the spell-shaped posts of an angel-style sparkle,
in the same way as a rocker.
Take care of the rotors, rotate all the way, fill in the serial
numbers of the rods, and trim them to a flat terracotta.
How many times did you come to work? You can also take a walk in the
center of the city, take a walk or take a stroll along the street and
enjoy the masseuse, the same day, even in the evenings. Let us know
what to do next. Fenoral spindle mowers, but other types of mowers.
same thing, so that you can find out about everyday life.
Something has been done in front of real-life singles too; Other
formulas are in front of you.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 25, 2018, 3:36:41 PM6/25/18
to
semantic field.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 3:40:03 PM6/25/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> The results makes no sense, interpreted in any language, because my
>> conversion of 'Greek' to 'Arabic' was done without looking at the
>> actual letters and their relation to the underlying Interlingua at
>> all. Nevertheless, Google Translate manages to produce at least some
>> 'English' sentences from it. But they are complete gobbledegook, and
>> they bear no relation to the Interlingua original at all. Which was
>> the point I was trying to make.
>
>The two sentences you quote are lovely poetry. Much lovelier than
>"colorless green ideas."
Maybe if I make a conversion that converts real Interlingua into
something that is more plausible as fake Hebrew (or Arabic), including
using the special final letter forms of Hebrew, leaving out vowels
except word initially (of maybe write all i's as jod etc.), Google
Translate might produce more such lunacy poetry.
But it requires some programming for which I currently don't have the
time. Perhaps I'll do it some day, similar to
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/lfn-cyr.c.htm .
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> The results makes no sense, interpreted in any language, because my
>> conversion of 'Greek' to 'Arabic' was done without looking at the
>> actual letters and their relation to the underlying Interlingua at
>> all. Nevertheless, Google Translate manages to produce at least some
>> 'English' sentences from it. But they are complete gobbledegook, and
>> they bear no relation to the Interlingua original at all. Which was
>> the point I was trying to make.
>
>The two sentences you quote are lovely poetry. Much lovelier than
>"colorless green ideas."
something that is more plausible as fake Hebrew (or Arabic), including
using the special final letter forms of Hebrew, leaving out vowels
except word initially (of maybe write all i's as jod etc.), Google
Translate might produce more such lunacy poetry.
But it requires some programming for which I currently don't have the
time. Perhaps I'll do it some day, similar to
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/lfn-cyr.c.htm .
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 25, 2018, 3:40:03 PM6/25/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 21:26:40 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>Something has been done in front of real-life singles too; Other
>formulas are in front of you.
Perhaps THIS is what Magdalenean _really_ looked like, don't you
think, Franz?
scribeva:
>Mon, 25 Jun 2018 21:23:44 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>>And in
>>https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Frudhar.com%2Ftechnica%2Fgrviarti%2Fia-Grek.htm
>>from http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia.htm .
>
>The abbey of the blessed bearer of the orthodox has been given a
>witness with a divine bosom. You are only coming up, all day. If you
>are not in a position to do so, you will not be able to do so.
[...]
>Mon, 25 Jun 2018 21:23:44 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>>And in
>>https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Frudhar.com%2Ftechnica%2Fgrviarti%2Fia-Grek.htm
>>from http://rudhar.com/technica/grviarti/ia.htm .
>
>The abbey of the blessed bearer of the orthodox has been given a
>witness with a divine bosom. You are only coming up, all day. If you
>are not in a position to do so, you will not be able to do so.
>Something has been done in front of real-life singles too; Other
>formulas are in front of you.
think, Franz?
Daud Deden
Jun 25, 2018, 9:35:02 PM6/25/18
to
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 26, 2018, 2:53:43 AM6/26/18
to
On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 1:23:35 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Just like EVERY one of the hundreds of attempts at the Phaistos Disk.
No, PTD alias Peter The Dogmatician, there are thousands of decipherments
>
> Just like EVERY one of the hundreds of attempts at the Phaistos Disk.
of the PhD, and only one holds, and another one came close. Derk Ohlenroth
deciphered the entire disc, both sides, or rather both discs (a pair of clay
discs baked together), and for meanwhile fifteen years you find every silly
excuse not to lay even a glass eye on his book.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 26, 2018, 3:12:28 AM6/26/18
to
On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 9:40:03 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> Perhaps THIS is what Magdalenean _really_ looked like, don't you
> think, Franz?
> --
I don't understand your sudden flood of messages on a topic you apparently
>
> Perhaps THIS is what Magdalenean _really_ looked like, don't you
> think, Franz?
> --
occupied yourself with for some time. What I ask for in the beginning is
a readable and pronounceable transliteration. Here mine of a paragraph in
77 recto, and of 87 recto
Panveseroan dalan iuà dapiuvà dapiuvà vàniuu anluvà nanà
kanivas inuà dalero dakuvà dalan ivà dalero iukuà sen
dakuuvà dalero ihuvà ian ihuvà ihuvà ihikiuà daluuvà akuuvà ian
sankuuvà daluuvà daluuvà ihuvero iuvà ihuvero ihuanan iuv
daluuvà danihuavà ihan kuvà iuvà nihuuvà daluvà dalen iuvà
daluvà ihuvà dakan ihuvà dalero ihuuà daluuvà niuvà nan
sihuvà dalero iuvà dalero ihuvà daniuuvà daluuvà nan
dakuvà dakuuvà daluvà ihuuvduà sero ihuukà daluuvà nan
vero iuuvà nihuà danasiuus ihiliuvà dan iuuvà dakero
daluuvà niuà nihuuà daluuvà daluuvà dales daluuà nero iua
dakero ihuan daluuvà daluuà dalero ihuuà daluvà daniuvà
iuvero ihuvà daluuvà daluvà daluuà iuvà aluvà dalà
ihualà dalero iuvà anihuà daluvà iuvà dalan
vero vanihas ipiuà npiuan ihues dalià
Paenihihen ihuaipas àpiapiuasero akuaven sero
viuuilias iukà ikiaven àkuavero ipiuipià sàkà
kias akuuvà àluuvà ikiuavà luas ihiuuliuà servà
sasero dailias iuavas iliualuà ikiavà sasero
kas ihu luavero piuas ihua sa ihluavà sasero
àkuuaven ia luuavà ihàlansens iulan
sanihuas àsero ias iuasà dakà
sas ihaikiuà akuavà vian sasero
iha ikias iuaven ikiuavà dakà
Pihuavihà ven ihuu senven ihan envà
àihuuus iukià kuaves akiuan kailia
luas iliuà ihavà kauuuukà s iavà vero
vero ihan ikuà aluan iuas aluua vero
ihas iuan iuas iliuà sero dailiuan vero
àquuas ihuan viuuan
I see automatic writing, gibberish interspersed with some recognizeable words,
for example danasiuus on 77r might refer to the Danish alchemist Drebbel,
then there are words like vero vanihas which remind me of vero vanitas, real
vanity (Bacon aging, still vain, deploring his youth that has gone, hoping
to restore it with a new medicine of combined plants, as explained yesterday),
and for a fountain of youth, àquuas ihuan viuuan, aqua 'water' vita 'life'.
All I ask for is a readable transliteration of entire paragraphs or pages.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 26, 2018, 3:31:18 AM6/26/18
to
On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 12:20:44 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> No. Read the PDF. I am doing that now.
I went through the links you gave, no PDF among them. And I don't comprende
>
> No. Read the PDF. I am doing that now.
wamer seisch. You should give the original text on the left side, then the
translation on the right side. And I see nowhere a transliteration of the
Voynich. Not a translation, first a trans l i t e r ation.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 26, 2018, 8:20:19 AM6/26/18
to
any imagined similarities you claim to see are utterly meaningless.
> All I ask for is a readable transliteration of entire paragraphs or pages.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 10:30:03 AM6/26/18
to
Tue, 26 Jun 2018 00:31:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
The links were in the thread starter (and repeated a few times by me,
and mentioned in my open e-mail):
https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
The second one is a downloadable PDF (which means you can also just
read it in your browser).
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
and mentioned in my open e-mail):
https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
The second one is a downloadable PDF (which means you can also just
read it in your browser).
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 10:50:03 AM6/26/18
to
Mon, 25 Jun 2018 21:37:23 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
Results, counting by apparent lunacy and poetic qualities, vary a lot
depending on whether I use 'tet' to encode t (as in Yiddish for
non-Semitic words) or tav. Likewise: using qamats alef for the letter
o of Interlingua produces the most interesting results. Using vav with
cholam (as in non-YIVO Yiddish, and under some circumstances
(complicated) in Hebrew, make it less spectacular. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_orthography
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholam
etc.
Google Translate autodetects Yiddish (although it isn't anything like
that), and can also be set to Hebrew as the assumed languages.
scribeva:
>Maybe if I make a conversion that converts real Interlingua into
>something that is more plausible as fake Hebrew (or Arabic), including
>using the special final letter forms of Hebrew, leaving out vowels
>except word initially (of maybe write all i's as jod etc.), Google
>Translate might produce more such lunacy poetry.
>
>But it requires some programming for which I currently don't have the
>time. Perhaps I'll do it some day, s
Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
>something that is more plausible as fake Hebrew (or Arabic), including
>using the special final letter forms of Hebrew, leaving out vowels
>except word initially (of maybe write all i's as jod etc.), Google
>Translate might produce more such lunacy poetry.
>
>But it requires some programming for which I currently don't have the
>time. Perhaps I'll do it some day, s
Results, counting by apparent lunacy and poetic qualities, vary a lot
depending on whether I use 'tet' to encode t (as in Yiddish for
non-Semitic words) or tav. Likewise: using qamats alef for the letter
o of Interlingua produces the most interesting results. Using vav with
cholam (as in non-YIVO Yiddish, and under some circumstances
(complicated) in Hebrew, make it less spectacular. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_orthography
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholam
etc.
Google Translate autodetects Yiddish (although it isn't anything like
that), and can also be set to Hebrew as the assumed languages.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:10:04 AM6/26/18
to
>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
Interlingua:
- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
terra non muta.
Written in Hebrew script, interpreted as Yiddish, Google Translate
thinks this means:
- If you do not know what you are doing, do not worry about it, but do
not worry about it. All of this is the case in which it can be used to
enjoy the sweet love of the sun. All the results of the tournament
will be ongoing, but Kuwaello has been busy with Puntsa Plus, but it
does not have any superiority at all. As a whole, a charger is being
used, but everybody learns it is in the best of all.
And when telling it it is Hebrew (which of course is a lie as well):
- For example, in the case of a sinner, a person is a person, a
person, or a person. For the sake of the people of the land of Canaan,
the land of Canaan is the land of Canaan. This is the first time that
I have been able to get to know the meaning of the word "paslas
bassa". Assi al-Ista'iyyat al-Qaytniyouna al-Sa'dar, Ibn Qu'a
al-Disatantha, I will appeal to you on the authority of Ataataran.
Interlingua:
- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
terra non muta.
Written in Hebrew script, interpreted as Yiddish, Google Translate
thinks this means:
- If you do not know what you are doing, do not worry about it, but do
not worry about it. All of this is the case in which it can be used to
enjoy the sweet love of the sun. All the results of the tournament
will be ongoing, but Kuwaello has been busy with Puntsa Plus, but it
does not have any superiority at all. As a whole, a charger is being
used, but everybody learns it is in the best of all.
And when telling it it is Hebrew (which of course is a lie as well):
- For example, in the case of a sinner, a person is a person, a
person, or a person. For the sake of the people of the land of Canaan,
the land of Canaan is the land of Canaan. This is the first time that
I have been able to get to know the meaning of the word "paslas
bassa". Assi al-Ista'iyyat al-Qaytniyouna al-Sa'dar, Ibn Qu'a
al-Disatantha, I will appeal to you on the authority of Ataataran.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:10:04 AM6/26/18
to
Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:09:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>This is the first time that
>I have been able to get to know the meaning of the word "paslas
>bassa".
OK! So what does it mean?
scribeva:
>This is the first time that
>I have been able to get to know the meaning of the word "paslas
>bassa".
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:16:13 AM6/26/18
to
Interlingua:
פּראָקוע ין ון סתאתיאָן ספּאתיאל ין ון אָרבּיתא צירצומתעררעסתרע יל נאָן הא גראביתאתע, בּען קוע לע תעררא עס פּרעססאָ? לע עחפּליצאתיאָן עס קוע לע סתאתיאָן עס ין ון צאדיתע ליבּערע צאָנתינוע. לע סתאתיאָן גירא צירצום לע תעררא ע צאדע אל תעררא, מא קואנדאָ יללאָ הא ארריבאתע א ון פּונצתאָ פּלוס בּאססע, יללאץ לע סופּערפיציע תעררעסתרע עס עתיאם פּלוס בּאססע. אססי לע סתאתיאָן צאָנתינוע א צאדער, בּען קוע לע דיסתאנתיא ינתער לע סתאתיאָן ע לע תעררא נאָן מותא.
which Google Translate transcribed as:
prokue in un ssasyon spasyal in un orbisa tsirtsumserressre il non ha grabisase, ben kue le serra es presso? le ekhplitsasyon es kue le ssasyon es in un tsadise libere tsonsinue. le ssasyon gira tsirtsum le serra e tsade al serra, ma kuando illo ha arribase a un puntsso plus basse, illats le superfitsye serressre es esyam plus basse. assi le ssasyon tsonsinue a tsader, ben kue le dissansya inser le ssasyon e le serra non musa.
(All t's are transcribed as s, because in Yiddish, without a dagesh they are interpreted as th, or s in Ashkenazi pronunciation. For Interlingua in Hebrew script, there is no need to write a Dagesh, so I didn't.)
Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le terra non muta.
The Hebrew I generated was:
פּראָקוע ין ון סתאתיאָן ספּאתיאל ין ון אָרבּיתא צירצומתעררעסתרע יל נאָן הא גראביתאתע, בּען קוע לע תעררא עס פּרעססאָ? לע עחפּליצאתיאָן עס קוע לע סתאתיאָן עס ין ון צאדיתע ליבּערע צאָנתינוע. לע סתאתיאָן גירא צירצום לע תעררא ע צאדע אל תעררא, מא קואנדאָ יללאָ הא ארריבאתע א ון פּונצתאָ פּלוס בּאססע, יללאץ לע סופּערפיציע תעררעסתרע עס עתיאם פּלוס בּאססע. אססי לע סתאתיאָן צאָנתינוע א צאדער, בּען קוע לע דיסתאנתיא ינתער לע סתאתיאָן ע לע תעררא נאָן מותא.
which Google Translate transcribed as:
prokue in un ssasyon spasyal in un orbisa tsirtsumserressre il non ha grabisase, ben kue le serra es presso? le ekhplitsasyon es kue le ssasyon es in un tsadise libere tsonsinue. le ssasyon gira tsirtsum le serra e tsade al serra, ma kuando illo ha arribase a un puntsso plus basse, illats le superfitsye serressre es esyam plus basse. assi le ssasyon tsonsinue a tsader, ben kue le dissansya inser le ssasyon e le serra non musa.
(All t's are transcribed as s, because in Yiddish, without a dagesh they are interpreted as th, or s in Ashkenazi pronunciation. For Interlingua in Hebrew script, there is no need to write a Dagesh, so I didn't.)
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:25:04 AM6/26/18
to
Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:09:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
>
>Interlingua:
>- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
>gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
>station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
>terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
>basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
>station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
>terra non muta.
No the other Hebrew conversion (t s teth, o as waw holam):
Interpreted as Yiddish:
- Proceeding from the Statutory Protocol in the Revolution of the
Corruption Tribunal, according to the laws of the Republic. The whole
of it is the statue of the statue in it, the real pleasure of love.
The Staten Island District, the Territorial Territorial Territorial
Territory, and the United States of America, have been launched in
October 2013, and have been launched by the Supreme Court of Terrorism
and the Plus Plus. As all of the Staten Island, a charger, cow all the
stonework amongst all the Staten Island territories.
And as Hebrew:
- Proctogenesis Statin spatialin vorbitta trichomonas trichomonacillus
trigemusus, neuralgia, neutrophilus. For the purpose of dealing with
statin. In the context of the work of the Church of the SubGenius, the
Church of the Nativity of the Patriarchs, Assiut on Satyunit Znitoye
Tsudar, Ba'an Kua for Distanti Yanter for a staatun with ta'arru nun
muta.
scribeva:
>>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
>
>Interlingua:
>- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
>gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
>station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
>terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
>basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
>station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
>terra non muta.
Interpreted as Yiddish:
- Proceeding from the Statutory Protocol in the Revolution of the
Corruption Tribunal, according to the laws of the Republic. The whole
of it is the statue of the statue in it, the real pleasure of love.
The Staten Island District, the Territorial Territorial Territorial
Territory, and the United States of America, have been launched in
October 2013, and have been launched by the Supreme Court of Terrorism
and the Plus Plus. As all of the Staten Island, a charger, cow all the
stonework amongst all the Staten Island territories.
And as Hebrew:
- Proctogenesis Statin spatialin vorbitta trichomonas trichomonacillus
trigemusus, neuralgia, neutrophilus. For the purpose of dealing with
statin. In the context of the work of the Church of the SubGenius, the
Church of the Nativity of the Patriarchs, Assiut on Satyunit Znitoye
Tsudar, Ba'an Kua for Distanti Yanter for a staatun with ta'arru nun
muta.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:25:41 AM6/26/18
to
My generated Hebrew in the other spelling convention:
פּרוֹקוע ין ון סטאטיוֹן ספּאטיאל ין ון וֹרבּיטא צירצומטעררעסטרע יל נוֹן הא גראביטאטע, בּען קוע לע טעררא עס פּרעססוֹ? לע עחפּליצאטיוֹן עס קוע לע סטאטיוֹן עס ין ון צאדיטע ליבּערע צוֹנטינוע. לע סטאטיוֹן גירא צירצום לע טעררא ע צאדע אל טעררא, מא קואנדוֹ יללוֹ הא ארריבאטע א ון פּונצטוֹ פּלוס בּאססע, יללאץ לע סופּערפיציע טעררעסטרע עס עטיאם פּלוס בּאססע. אססי לע סטאטיוֹן צוֹנטינוע א צאדער, בּען קוע לע דיסטאנטיא ינטער לע סטאטיוֹן ע לע טעררא נוֹן מוטא.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:35:03 AM6/26/18
to
Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:22:15 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
Now t as teth, o as qamats alef (closest to YIVO Yiddish, but still
quite different from it):
As Yiddish:
- Or maybe the Labor Camp in the Orbit of the Circuit Criminal Court,
because of the State of the Presidency? All of this is the whole of
it, the whole of it's love story. All stages in the territory of Terra
State, Corgo Illo have been occupied by PlusSto, but the Superfire
Terrestrial Plus will not be enough. As a whole, a branch is required,
but every one of the stations in the entire territorial entity.
As Hebrew:
- Punctuation of the Statue of Spatialin and Arbaita of
Tsurtsumetterstrasse yell nan ha gravitata, Ibn Qu'a al-Ta'arra
As-Farsa? For the purpose of the work of the Jewish people, For the
first time in the history of the city, the village of Qandala, the
village of Al-Arabiya, is located in the village of As-Tasir. Assiut
Le'Statiyan Tsantyonu A Sadar, Ba'an Kua L'al-Dastantiy Yantar
Lataatiyan A'Ta'ataru Nun Muta.
scribeva:
>Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:09:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>
>>>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
>>
>>Interlingua:
>>- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
>>gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
>>station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
>>terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
>>basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
>>station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
>>terra non muta.
>
>Now the other Hebrew conversion (t as teth, o as waw holam):
>Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:09:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>
>>>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
>>
>>Interlingua:
>>- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
>>gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
>>station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
>>terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
>>basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
>>station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
>>terra non muta.
>
Now t as teth, o as qamats alef (closest to YIVO Yiddish, but still
quite different from it):
As Yiddish:
- Or maybe the Labor Camp in the Orbit of the Circuit Criminal Court,
because of the State of the Presidency? All of this is the whole of
it, the whole of it's love story. All stages in the territory of Terra
State, Corgo Illo have been occupied by PlusSto, but the Superfire
Terrestrial Plus will not be enough. As a whole, a branch is required,
but every one of the stations in the entire territorial entity.
As Hebrew:
- Punctuation of the Statue of Spatialin and Arbaita of
Tsurtsumetterstrasse yell nan ha gravitata, Ibn Qu'a al-Ta'arra
As-Farsa? For the purpose of the work of the Jewish people, For the
first time in the history of the city, the village of Qandala, the
village of Al-Arabiya, is located in the village of As-Tasir. Assiut
Le'Statiyan Tsantyonu A Sadar, Ba'an Kua L'al-Dastantiy Yantar
Lataatiyan A'Ta'ataru Nun Muta.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:40:04 AM6/26/18
to
Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:34:42 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>As a whole, a branch is required,
>but every one of the stations in the entire territorial entity.
All your base are belong to us!
scribeva:
>As a whole, a branch is required,
>but every one of the stations in the entire territorial entity.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:45:03 AM6/26/18
to
Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:34:42 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>- Punctuation of the Statue of Spatialin and Arbaita of
>Tsurtsumetterstrasse yell nan ha gravitata, Ibn Qu'a al-Ta'arra
>As-Farsa? For the purpose of the work of the Jewish people, For the
>first time in the history of the city, the village of Qandala, the
>village of Al-Arabiya, is located in the village of As-Tasir. Assiut
>Le'Statiyan Tsantyonu A Sadar, Ba'an Kua L'al-Dastantiy Yantar
>Lataatiyan A'Ta'ataru Nun Muta.
Secret instructions to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?
scribeva:
>- Punctuation of the Statue of Spatialin and Arbaita of
>Tsurtsumetterstrasse yell nan ha gravitata, Ibn Qu'a al-Ta'arra
>As-Farsa? For the purpose of the work of the Jewish people, For the
>first time in the history of the city, the village of Qandala, the
>village of Al-Arabiya, is located in the village of As-Tasir. Assiut
>Le'Statiyan Tsantyonu A Sadar, Ba'an Kua L'al-Dastantiy Yantar
>Lataatiyan A'Ta'ataru Nun Muta.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 11:45:03 AM6/26/18
to
Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:40:30 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
Do remember that all of this is still under MY copyright, because I
wrote the original this was translated from, and I gave Google
permission to translate it, but not to publish or use it.
So if anyone finds any gold using this, I will want my share!!!
wrote the original this was translated from, and I gave Google
permission to translate it, but not to publish or use it.
So if anyone finds any gold using this, I will want my share!!!
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 26, 2018, 12:05:03 PM6/26/18
to
Politenite
Ebentos: 23 de Shunio, Teatro: 1 de Shulio 2017
From Brussels to North A Plus, the Monetary Fund of Labor, within the
Communist Republic of the Dominican Republic, is responsible for the
delinquency of the United States and the United States of America.
Small Business Survey in Insolvency, Non-Commercial Real Estate
Insurance, Credit Unions, Credit Unions, Credit Suisse. All of us have
the right serbite service from Doma Apache toothpaste Otsulos Bird.
Muslim Tsassis, Honorary Daemon, Duncan Stations, French Music,
Ethnographic Intelligence, Sobole Without Non-Muslims, Cedar Cassio
Silentio. Joint Commissioning Deliberation by Manuel Del Bolumine
Remedio Illo. This is the motto of a postmodernist prominent,
inter-prominent member of the basketball court, tackle towers, and
annexation of Ethiopia.
Whether it is a franca present, you will be able to spend more time on
cooking. From the beginning of the coup d'étéption of the whole region
of France? All secret? The National Coalition of National Socialist
Republic of the British Revolution of the Protpo Tort. Le / o / de
<or> Tendeba Forson A [?], but it does not have it incomplete Insusal
within FR French. Fun / L / Aliceto Grasso There's Something Like It.
E / ? / kusasi ekuol a / ? /?
Maldives is the most important detail of the French principals in
French, French and Spanish. Yes, it is a plus t-shirt reformer law. Is
it illegal?
Retreading a passage from Thys Depos, Wifi Semper A Disposable
Scenario Causes of Health Insurance A PEDE, Natural Alternative In
Essential For A Trophy: All Donshence Dernias In Western Proto, Benny
A French A New Non-Speaking, Yes No Asset Cue Illa Gives Above,
Auditing Every Perfection Authenticité de Su Francès.
From France, Cés Setsundo, Guo Sono Tsomo, Deborah Sonor, Scout
Leadership, Organizations Stridentious Courses, In My Orders,
Courageous 'Bear' French Frontier.
Dennis Chisszoto's Presentation Chorno De Lava de Andesse A Tragedy
Horace All Progression Allegretto. Rename recipient.
The doctrine de l'autor © 2017, r. Tarmens, Tote Depositors of the
House of Representatives, All Rights Reserved.
Originally in Interlingua, ?? ??te??????a (Stshema 1), ?? ??te??????a
(Stshema 2), Trodu N en Elephena (Lingua Franca Noba), traditions are
new (Lingua franca new).
Attractive
Ponsetitsa
Reviews
Mission Statements in Interlingue: Menu, RSS.
Resource Interpretation
Porta de Entrato de Iste sito web
Toll-Free: Enoosyose Private Citizen Preference Reporter All Paginas
Ebentos: 23 de Shunio, Teatro: 1 de Shulio 2017
From Brussels to North A Plus, the Monetary Fund of Labor, within the
Communist Republic of the Dominican Republic, is responsible for the
delinquency of the United States and the United States of America.
Small Business Survey in Insolvency, Non-Commercial Real Estate
Insurance, Credit Unions, Credit Unions, Credit Suisse. All of us have
the right serbite service from Doma Apache toothpaste Otsulos Bird.
Muslim Tsassis, Honorary Daemon, Duncan Stations, French Music,
Ethnographic Intelligence, Sobole Without Non-Muslims, Cedar Cassio
Silentio. Joint Commissioning Deliberation by Manuel Del Bolumine
Remedio Illo. This is the motto of a postmodernist prominent,
inter-prominent member of the basketball court, tackle towers, and
annexation of Ethiopia.
Whether it is a franca present, you will be able to spend more time on
cooking. From the beginning of the coup d'étéption of the whole region
of France? All secret? The National Coalition of National Socialist
Republic of the British Revolution of the Protpo Tort. Le / o / de
<or> Tendeba Forson A [?], but it does not have it incomplete Insusal
within FR French. Fun / L / Aliceto Grasso There's Something Like It.
E / ? / kusasi ekuol a / ? /?
Maldives is the most important detail of the French principals in
French, French and Spanish. Yes, it is a plus t-shirt reformer law. Is
it illegal?
Retreading a passage from Thys Depos, Wifi Semper A Disposable
Scenario Causes of Health Insurance A PEDE, Natural Alternative In
Essential For A Trophy: All Donshence Dernias In Western Proto, Benny
A French A New Non-Speaking, Yes No Asset Cue Illa Gives Above,
Auditing Every Perfection Authenticité de Su Francès.
From France, Cés Setsundo, Guo Sono Tsomo, Deborah Sonor, Scout
Leadership, Organizations Stridentious Courses, In My Orders,
Courageous 'Bear' French Frontier.
Dennis Chisszoto's Presentation Chorno De Lava de Andesse A Tragedy
Horace All Progression Allegretto. Rename recipient.
The doctrine de l'autor © 2017, r. Tarmens, Tote Depositors of the
House of Representatives, All Rights Reserved.
Originally in Interlingua, ?? ??te??????a (Stshema 1), ?? ??te??????a
(Stshema 2), Trodu N en Elephena (Lingua Franca Noba), traditions are
new (Lingua franca new).
Attractive
Ponsetitsa
Reviews
Mission Statements in Interlingue: Menu, RSS.
Resource Interpretation
Porta de Entrato de Iste sito web
Toll-Free: Enoosyose Private Citizen Preference Reporter All Paginas
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 27, 2018, 2:45:23 AM6/27/18
to
sci.lang years ago. He pointed out what must be the four basic elements
earth water air fire, and I started from there. I said I ask _first_ for
a readable and pronounceable transliteration, the further discussion can
then follow. Any readable transliteration will reveal automatic writing.
Consider the first word of each transliterated paragraph above: it is
special, then the writer falls back to his usual gibberish with endless
repetitions, a clear indication of automatic writing, here in a pseudo-
Oceanian. My transliteration is readable, the standard transliteration
is not, and could thus fool people into believing it might or must be
a real language.
I wonder why nobody cared and cares for a readable transliteration.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 27, 2018, 2:50:28 AM6/27/18
to
On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 4:30:03 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 26 Jun 2018 00:31:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
> Tue, 26 Jun 2018 00:31:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
> scribeva:
>
> >On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 12:20:44 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>
> >> No. Read the PDF. I am doing that now.
> >
> >I went through the links you gave, no PDF among them. And I don't comprende
> >wamer seisch. You should give the original text on the left side, then the
> >translation on the right side. And I see nowhere a transliteration of the
> >Voynich. Not a translation, first a trans l i t e r ation.
>
> The links were in the thread starter (and repeated a few times by me,
> and mentioned in my open e-mail):
> https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
> https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
>
> The second one is a downloadable PDF (which means you can also just
> read it in your browser).
>
There is no transliteration of the Voynich in the links you gave. Nor in the
>
> >On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 12:20:44 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>
> >> No. Read the PDF. I am doing that now.
> >
> >I went through the links you gave, no PDF among them. And I don't comprende
> >wamer seisch. You should give the original text on the left side, then the
> >translation on the right side. And I see nowhere a transliteration of the
> >Voynich. Not a translation, first a trans l i t e r ation.
>
> The links were in the thread starter (and repeated a few times by me,
> and mentioned in my open e-mail):
> https://www.folio.ca/using-ai-to-uncover-the-mystery-of-an-ancient-manuscript/
> https://transacl.org/ojs/index.php/tacl/article/download/821/174
>
> The second one is a downloadable PDF (which means you can also just
> read it in your browser).
>
flood of subsequent messages. I absolutely have no idea what you are talking
about.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 27, 2018, 3:21:38 AM6/27/18
to
Voynich paragraphs, and let Google detect the language:
Panveseroan dalan is one of the most beautiful and most beautiful people
in the world
The only one in the world is to get rid of it
dakuuvà dalero ihuvà ian ihuvà ihuvà ihikiuà works in the world
The work of the workshop is to work in the environment
daluhuas danihuavà ihan kuvà iuvà nihuuvà daluvà dalen iuvà
You will be able to find out how much you have to do today
This is the first time in the world of the world
Dakuvà dakuuvà works in front of the world today
This is the case in the southern part of the world
This is what I have done in my life
There are many ways in which we can work together
I know that I have a great deal of responsibility
The only one in the world is the same
vero vanihas ipiuà npiuan ihues student
This is a seamless goddess inhumane
In addition, we need to be able to access the target computer
These two-dimensional two-dimensional two-dimensional apartments are equipped
Sasero dailias is a major source of sedimentary work
to face luavero piuas over his or her lungs
This is the first step in the future
It is not possible to know what to do
There are many different types of vian sasero
Iua ikias iuaven licensed
Pihuaviha is coming senven in the near future
Infected style has been cut off
Two-dimensional two-dimensional layout
What is your name?
ihas iuan iuas iliuà sero dailiuan vero
search for iuann viuuan
AlphaGo masters a highly structured mathematical game, while Google Translator
is not flexible enough to jump out of the routine: it must be a real language
and make sense. No, it is automatic writing, gibberish interspersed with
a couple of recognizeable words, pseudo-Oceanian with hidden allusions that
only reveal themselves if you link the Voynich with Bacon in the sense I
described. Iuvero ihuvà daluuvà daluvà daluuà iuvà aluvà dalà - I know that
I have a great deal of responsibility. As an expert in hermeneutics, way
ahead of Artificial Intelligence. Thank you, Google, for confirming me.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 27, 2018, 7:38:45 AM6/27/18
to
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 2:45:23 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 2:20:19 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 3:12:28 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > Since your assignment of sounds to letters is, you claimed, arbitrary,
> > any imagined similarities you claim to see are utterly meaningless.
> > > All I ask for is a readable transliteration of entire paragraphs or pages.
> > Any random assignment of sounds to letters will yield that.
>
> No, its not arbitrary, I tested a clue provided by Dr. HotSalt here in
> sci.lang years ago. He pointed out what must be the four basic elements
> earth water air fire, and I started from there.
There is no "must be" about it. But what would that have to do with the
> On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 2:20:19 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 3:12:28 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > Since your assignment of sounds to letters is, you claimed, arbitrary,
> > any imagined similarities you claim to see are utterly meaningless.
> > > All I ask for is a readable transliteration of entire paragraphs or pages.
> > Any random assignment of sounds to letters will yield that.
>
> No, its not arbitrary, I tested a clue provided by Dr. HotSalt here in
> sci.lang years ago. He pointed out what must be the four basic elements
> earth water air fire, and I started from there.
assignment of sounds to letters?
> I said I ask _first_ for
> a readable and pronounceable transliteration, the further discussion can
> then follow. Any readable transliteration will reveal automatic writing.
> Consider the first word of each transliterated paragraph above: it is
> special, then the writer falls back to his usual gibberish with endless
> repetitions, a clear indication of automatic writing, here in a pseudo-
> Oceanian.
> My transliteration is readable, the standard transliteration
> is not, and could thus fool people into believing it might or must be
> a real language.
> I wonder why nobody cared and cares for a readable transliteration.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 27, 2018, 8:05:04 AM6/27/18
to
Tue, 26 Jun 2018 23:50:26 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
I never promised there would be transliterations. I didn't start this
thread, nor did I wrote the paper about the scientific research.
>I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.
I cannot help you with that.
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
thread, nor did I wrote the paper about the scientific research.
>I absolutely have no idea what you are talking about.
Dr. HotSalt
Jun 27, 2018, 3:49:25 PM6/27/18
to
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:38:45 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 2:45:23 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 2:20:19 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 3:12:28 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>
> > > Since your assignment of sounds to letters is, you claimed, arbitrary,
> > > any imagined similarities you claim to see are utterly meaningless.
> > > > All I ask for is a readable transliteration of entire paragraphs or
> > > > pages.
> > > Any random assignment of sounds to letters will yield that.
> >
> > No, its not arbitrary, I tested a clue provided by Dr. HotSalt here in
> > sci.lang years ago. He pointed out what must be the four basic elements
> > earth water air fire, and I started from there.
>
> There is no "must be" about it.
Correct. I never said "must be"- I noted that a particular illustration
> On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 2:45:23 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 2:20:19 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 3:12:28 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>
> > > Since your assignment of sounds to letters is, you claimed, arbitrary,
> > > any imagined similarities you claim to see are utterly meaningless.
> > > > All I ask for is a readable transliteration of entire paragraphs or
> > > > pages.
> > > Any random assignment of sounds to letters will yield that.
> >
> > No, its not arbitrary, I tested a clue provided by Dr. HotSalt here in
> > sci.lang years ago. He pointed out what must be the four basic elements
> > earth water air fire, and I started from there.
>
> There is no "must be" about it.
*appears* to have alchemical elements, particularly a prominent foursome
of character groupings that could be the classical four elements.
My observation was all about the context, which depended on the context
indeed being alchemical, and something resembling Renaissance alchemy at that.
I am quite happy to take credit/blame for what I write but I prefer not to
be misquoted (Franz!).
> But what would that have to do with the
> assignment of sounds to letters?
element was which much less label them explicitly (assuming they were elements).
Not that that would have helped much considering alchemists' penchant for using
non-standard (even for the day) terminology.
> > I said I ask _first_ for
> > a readable and pronounceable transliteration, the further discussion can
> > then follow. Any readable transliteration will reveal automatic writing.
>
> (If there were such a thing.)
necessarily what its more spiritually-inclined proponents claim it is)
nor does it mean that it produces any semantic content. Rather the opposite.
As for translation/transliteration of the MS- I believe we're all agreed
that it either makes sense or it does not, but we still can't tell.
> > Consider the first word of each transliterated paragraph above: it is
> > special, then the writer falls back to his usual gibberish with endless
> > repetitions, a clear indication of automatic writing, here in a pseudo-
> > Oceanian.
>
> "Oceanian"??
hard to keep track).
> > My transliteration is readable, the standard transliteration
> > is not, and could thus fool people into believing it might or must be
> > a real language.
>
> "Standard"??
> > I wonder why nobody cared and cares for a readable transliteration.
>
> I wonder why anyone cares about this at all.
That it may not have an actual solution isn't really relevant.
Dr. HotSalt
Dr. HotSalt
Jun 27, 2018, 3:53:09 PM6/27/18
to
On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 8:25:04 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:09:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
>
> >>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
> >
> >Interlingua:
> >- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
> >gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
> >station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
> >terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
> >basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
> >station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
> >terra non muta.
>
> No the other Hebrew conversion (t s teth, o as waw holam):
>
> Interpreted as Yiddish:
> - Proceeding from the Statutory Protocol in the Revolution of the
> Corruption Tribunal, according to the laws of the Republic. The whole
> of it is the statue of the statue in it, the real pleasure of love.
> The Staten Island District, the Territorial Territorial Territorial
> Territory, and the United States of America, have been launched in
> October 2013, and have been launched by the Supreme Court of Terrorism
> and the Plus Plus. As all of the Staten Island, a charger, cow all the
> stonework amongst all the Staten Island territories.
>
> And as Hebrew:
> - Proctogenesis
!!!!
> Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:09:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
>
> >>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
> >
> >Interlingua:
> >- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
> >gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
> >station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
> >terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
> >basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
> >station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
> >terra non muta.
>
> No the other Hebrew conversion (t s teth, o as waw holam):
>
> Interpreted as Yiddish:
> - Proceeding from the Statutory Protocol in the Revolution of the
> Corruption Tribunal, according to the laws of the Republic. The whole
> of it is the statue of the statue in it, the real pleasure of love.
> The Staten Island District, the Territorial Territorial Territorial
> Territory, and the United States of America, have been launched in
> October 2013, and have been launched by the Supreme Court of Terrorism
> and the Plus Plus. As all of the Staten Island, a charger, cow all the
> stonework amongst all the Staten Island territories.
>
> And as Hebrew:
> - Proctogenesis
I suspect it is actually an AI and is messing with you.
Dr. HotSalt
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 28, 2018, 2:35:03 AM6/28/18
to
Wed, 27 Jun 2018 12:53:07 -0700 (PDT): "Dr. HotSalt"
<alie...@gmail.com> scribeva:
It seems you didn't follow the thread and didn't read
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en05.htm . The above were
'translations' by Google Translate of sensible and coherent
(non-hallucinant) Interlingua text I wrote, but converted to the
Hebrew alphabet and interpreted by GT as either Yiddish or Hebrew
(while of course it isn't anything like either).
And yes, GT, like DeepL, probably uses Deep Learning techniques, which
is a form of Articificial Intelligence (AI).
<alie...@gmail.com> scribeva:
http://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en05.htm . The above were
'translations' by Google Translate of sensible and coherent
(non-hallucinant) Interlingua text I wrote, but converted to the
Hebrew alphabet and interpreted by GT as either Yiddish or Hebrew
(while of course it isn't anything like either).
And yes, GT, like DeepL, probably uses Deep Learning techniques, which
is a form of Articificial Intelligence (AI).
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 28, 2018, 2:36:51 AM6/28/18
to
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 1:38:45 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> There is no "must be" about it. But what would that have to do with the
> assignment of sounds to letters?
Well then: could be. The Voynich stumped me, and never really interested me,
>
> There is no "must be" about it. But what would that have to do with the
> assignment of sounds to letters?
apart from the leonardesk appeal of some pages. Then Dr. HotSalt wrote that
87 recto may provide a key for a decipherment: four words at the top may
represent the four ancient elements earth water air fire. So I tested his
hypothesis, beginning with the word of the structure 1 2 2 1 which I read
as akka, name of the ancient earth goddess (Pokorny). The rest was fairly
easy. And so I found my readable transliteration.
> (If there were such a thing.)
readable. I can imagine a good actor reading the text as fake report of
the discovery of New Atlantis in the Southern Seas. When I read it I need
a quarter of an hour then I am in the flow and can read page for page without
a problem. A good actor could add inflections and the whole shebang of prosody.)
> "Oceanian"??
I used pseudo-Polynesian, but Ross Clark told me time and again that I can't
use the term Polynesian, only Oceanian.
> "Standard"??
A couple of years back there was a standard transliteration, used by everybody.
> I wonder why anyone cares about this at all.
opinion the revolutionary first formulation of evolution, and a method of
combining plants which we now achieve with genetic engineering, moreover
a psychogram of the ageing Bacon.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 28, 2018, 2:50:03 AM6/28/18
to
Thu, 28 Jun 2018 08:31:39 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
"This is because the definite article was originally a stand-alone
particle ??? hal, but at some early stage in ancient Hebrew it
contracted into a prefix ?? 'ha-', and the loss of the ? 'l' was
compensated for by doubling the following letter. "
Wow! This is exactly like what happens in Arabic! So ancient! And so
interesting!
Yesterday, I tried to read the Yiddish Wikipedia article about klemzer
music, with no prior knowledge of Yiddish, only some of its
orthography and phonology, of Standard High-German, and of klezmer.
And I actually could! Albeit extremely slowly. And with the help of a
large-font printout of the Hebrew alphabet in both serif and
non-serif. Without that I keep confusing letters.
Hebrew words in the Yiddish text were immediately recognizable by the
use of letters that Yiddish doesn't use (e.g. Het, tav, kof with
dagesh), and most were links to other Wikipedia article so I could
quickly find the meaning by hovering over the links to other-language
articles.
scribeva:
>but converted to the Hebrew alphabet a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagesh
"This is because the definite article was originally a stand-alone
particle ??? hal, but at some early stage in ancient Hebrew it
contracted into a prefix ?? 'ha-', and the loss of the ? 'l' was
compensated for by doubling the following letter. "
Wow! This is exactly like what happens in Arabic! So ancient! And so
interesting!
Yesterday, I tried to read the Yiddish Wikipedia article about klemzer
music, with no prior knowledge of Yiddish, only some of its
orthography and phonology, of Standard High-German, and of klezmer.
And I actually could! Albeit extremely slowly. And with the help of a
large-font printout of the Hebrew alphabet in both serif and
non-serif. Without that I keep confusing letters.
Hebrew words in the Yiddish text were immediately recognizable by the
use of letters that Yiddish doesn't use (e.g. Het, tav, kof with
dagesh), and most were links to other Wikipedia article so I could
quickly find the meaning by hovering over the links to other-language
articles.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 28, 2018, 2:50:30 AM6/28/18
to
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 9:49:25 PM UTC+2, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
>
> I am quite happy to take credit/blame for what I write but I prefer not to
> be misquoted (Franz!).
Here is the version on my website, 2009/14. Correct me if I should have
>
> I am quite happy to take credit/blame for what I write but I prefer not to
> be misquoted (Franz!).
misquoted you. In my language I would say müesti, a subjonctive of must,
far less conclusive than the hammer bang of the English must. And I achieved
my transliteration not quite in the way I just told Peter; t'was a long time
ago:
Francis Bacon, author of the Voynich manuscript ? © 2009 by Franz Gnaedinger, www.seshat.ch
Foreword May 2014. The vellum of the Voynich manuscript was recently dated to around 1430, while the inks could not be dated. In principle it is possible that Bacon got a stack of old virgin vellum from an Italian monastery on which he wrote the MS.
H.R. SantaColoma, on his great page www.santa-coloma.net Drebbel/Voynich theory, links the Voynich manuscript to Francis Bacon’s Nova Atlantis, an utopian island west of Peru, and interprets the circular drawings via cilia as they may have been observed through a microscope fabricated by the Danish alchemist and inventor Cornelius Drebbel at the begin of the 17th century. And in an online forum one Dr. HotSalt wrote that the five vertical vents at the top of 77r could represent the four classical elements plus aether (the quinta essentia introduced by Aristotle). Using this hint I transcribed four words that may name the four elements water earth fire air in heightened, energized and organic form:
Water akuvà – combining Latin aqua ‘water’ with Italian uva ‘grape’, the latter evoking vine and wine, Mass wine being transformed into the blood of Christ in the Catholic church. We have then a triple liquid, water wine blood, explaining the triple beam spouting out of the first vertical vent on the left side
Earth akasl – combining Latin ager ‘field’ and German Acker ‘field’, an old form being achar, while akka was the Indo-European earth goddess (Julius Pokorny) with s for sun and the solar metal gold and l for luna ‘moon’ and the lunar metal silver, both concealed inside the earth
Fire akan – combining Latin accendo ‘I kindle, set on fire, light’ and German Vulkan ‘volcano’, a highly energized form of fire, suiting the red cloud emerging from the second vertical vent from the right side
Air vivà – combining Old English wawan ‘to blow’ and English wind with Latin viva ‘may he or she live’, thus denoting the air in the lungs, organic air, breath and breathing
The six words under the long tube at the top of 77r from left to right: anlis akuvà akasl vivà sasen, and the names of the three women and of the man, in clockwise direction: Akaneroà Akivà Vasives Vakuvà.
I believe that the Voynich manuscript was written and drawn by Francis Bacon in 1622, as a private sequel to the highly successful Nova Atlantis, written in a pseudo-Polynesian idiom allowing page-filling automatic writing, and drawn in a deliberate retro-style honoring Francis Bacon’s ancestor Roger Bacon. The text is gibberish but makes allusions. Here is the first paragraph of 77r:
Panveseroan dalan iuà dapiuvà dapiuvà vàniuu anluvà nanà
kanivas inuà dalero dakuvà dalan ivà dalero iukuà sen
dakuuvà dalero ihuvà ian ihuvà ihuvà ihikiuà daluuvà akuuvà ian
sankuuvà daluuvà daluuvà ihuvero iuvà ihuvero ihuanan iuv
daluuvà danihuavà ihan kuvà iuvà nihuuvà daluvà dalen iuvà
daluvà ihuvà dakan ihuvà dalero ihuuà daluuvà niuvà nan
sihuvà dalero iuvà dalero ihuvà daniuuvà daluuvà nan
dakuvà dakuuvà daluvà ihuuvduà sero ihuukà daluuvà nan
vero iuuvà nihuà danasiuus ihiliuvà dan iuuvà dakero
daluuvà niuà nihuuà daluuvà daluuvà dales daluuà nero iua
dakero ihuan daluuvà daluuà dalero ihuuà daluvà daniuvà
iuvero ihuvà daluuvà daluvà daluuà iuvà aluvà dalà
ihualà dalero iuvà anihuà daluvà iuvà dalan
vero vanihas ipiuà npiuan ihues dalià
In his main work Novum Organum Francis Bacon explains that spirits “less than air” are present in all tangible objects and cause alteration, quick or slow decay, but also, we may assume, healing and evolution, favorable changes. Herbs can be combined to healing infusions, why not also to a rejuvenating herbal wine? We just have to find out what plants and which parts thereof must be combined in such a way that their inherent spirits less than air do us the favor of making us young and lively again … The dwellers of New Atlantis combine various plants, and the many plants in the Voynich manuscript are combinations of existing plants. Francis Bacon may really have hoped to concoct a magic herbal wine of rejuvenation, but he also knew that his hope was in vain.
87r shows one of the many flowers in the Voynich manuscript, and the text reads:
Paenihihen ihuaipas àpiapiuasero akuaven sero
viuuilias iukà ikiaven àkuavero ipiuipià sàkà
kias akuuvà àluuvà ikiuavà luas ihiuuliuà servà
sasero dailias iuavas iliualuà ikiavà sasero
kas ihu luavero piuas ihua sa ihluavà sasero
àkuuaven ia luuavà ihàlansens iulan
sanihuas àsero ias iuasà dakà
sas ihaikiuà akuavà vian sasero
iha ikias iuaven ikiuavà dakà
Pihuavihà ven ihuu senven ihan envà
àihuuus iukià kuaves akiuan kailia
luas iliuà ihavà kauuuukà s iavà vero
vero ihan ikuà aluan iuas aluua vero
ihas iuan iuas iliuà sero dailiuan vero
àquuas ihuan viuuan
What makes the Voynich manuscript exiting for me is the drawing on 77r, an amateurish but highly philosophical illustration of an early idea of evolution from microbes, a stack of paramecia on the left margin, to plants; the woman Akaneroà below, standing next to a tree trunk on a river bank, the trunk hollowed, filled with the deep blue water of life; and animals: the woman Akivà in the middle, next to her a strange animal composed of tubes and vents, evoking an armadillo (see also the real armadillo in the Voynich), its legs again symbolizing the four classical elements, its head aether, the irregular shape indicating change over time, the primeval animal evolving into all the various animals we know today, and the woman at the top representing the human world rooted in the animal kingdom. The woman named Vasives has her main root in the animal kingdom, plus four lateral roots in the spiritual world, while the man named Vakuvà has two strong roots in the spiritual world, probably symbolizing experimental and theoretical reasoning. The elements earth and water are on the female side, and the elements fire and air on the male side, according to the alchemistic understanding. We have a lot of old superstition, on the other hand we see biological science emerge from alchemy, a first idea of evolution that may even be reflected in the ever mutating pseudo-Polynesian idiom ... The page-filling automatic writing could well be an experiment in paleo-linguistics: how do words change and evolve when repeated over and over and over again?
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 28, 2018, 2:51:32 AM6/28/18
to
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 28, 2018, 3:02:09 AM6/28/18
to
> Did anyone notice how much sense Google Translator made of my transliteration?
and Hausa. Maybe Francis Bacon had a Hawaian glossary from somewhere?
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 28, 2018, 7:25:22 AM6/28/18
to
On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 2:50:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 28 Jun 2018 08:31:39 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
> >but converted to the Hebrew alphabet a
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagesh
> "This is because the definite article was originally a stand-alone
> particle ??? hal, but at some early stage in ancient Hebrew it
> contracted into a prefix ?? 'ha-', and the loss of the ? 'l' was
> compensated for by doubling the following letter. "
>
> Wow! This is exactly like what happens in Arabic! So ancient! And so
> interesting!
Is that sarcasm, or genuine surprise that two closely related languages
> Thu, 28 Jun 2018 08:31:39 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> scribeva:
> >but converted to the Hebrew alphabet a
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagesh
> "This is because the definite article was originally a stand-alone
> particle ??? hal, but at some early stage in ancient Hebrew it
> contracted into a prefix ?? 'ha-', and the loss of the ? 'l' was
> compensated for by doubling the following letter. "
>
> Wow! This is exactly like what happens in Arabic! So ancient! And so
> interesting!
have very similar phenomena?
Hebrew *hal, BTW, is completely conjectural. The evidence that dagesh
represents *l is the Arabic cognate.
Yusuf B Gursey
Jun 28, 2018, 8:07:56 AM6/28/18
to
Ahmad al-Jallad says the article is an areal phenomenon in Semitic
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 28, 2018, 12:20:03 PM6/28/18
to
Thu, 28 Jun 2018 04:25:21 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 2:50:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 28 Jun 2018 08:31:39 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>> scribeva:
>> >but converted to the Hebrew alphabet a
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagesh
>> "This is because the definite article was originally a stand-alone
>> particle ??? hal, but at some early stage in ancient Hebrew it
>> contracted into a prefix ?? 'ha-', and the loss of the ? 'l' was
>> compensated for by doubling the following letter. "
>>
>> Wow! This is exactly like what happens in Arabic! So ancient! And so
>> interesting!
>
>Is that sarcasm, or genuine surprise that two closely related languages
>have very similar phenomena?
No, no sarcasm at all. I was always surprised about the definite
articles 'ha' and 'al' being so different. But now I understand.
>Hebrew *hal, BTW, is completely conjectural. The evidence that dagesh
>represents *l is the Arabic cognate.
OK.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 2:50:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 28 Jun 2018 08:31:39 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>> scribeva:
>> >but converted to the Hebrew alphabet a
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagesh
>> "This is because the definite article was originally a stand-alone
>> particle ??? hal, but at some early stage in ancient Hebrew it
>> contracted into a prefix ?? 'ha-', and the loss of the ? 'l' was
>> compensated for by doubling the following letter. "
>>
>> Wow! This is exactly like what happens in Arabic! So ancient! And so
>> interesting!
>
>Is that sarcasm, or genuine surprise that two closely related languages
>have very similar phenomena?
articles 'ha' and 'al' being so different. But now I understand.
>Hebrew *hal, BTW, is completely conjectural. The evidence that dagesh
>represents *l is the Arabic cognate.
Yusuf B Gursey
Jun 28, 2018, 12:35:59 PM6/28/18
to
On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 7:25:22 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 29, 2018, 2:48:25 AM6/29/18
to
> By the way, Google Translator recognizes mainly Hawaian, also English, Finnish,
> and Hausa. Maybe Francis Bacon had a Hawaian glossary from somewhere?
have own a Hawaian glossary. But in his time there was a small Polynesian
dictionary that he could have consulted. And, my favorite version, he could
have spoken with dwellers of an island in the Southern Seas who arrived in
England on a ship. Furthermore, the automatic writing might have been
a Paleo-linguistic experiment by Bacon in gaining a glimpse of the language
of Adam and Eve - sort of a back-evolution of language. There are many levels
of the Voynich, and that's what interests me. In a time (ours) when only
binary solutions count, either / or, nothing in between.
Dr. HotSalt
Jun 29, 2018, 11:20:30 PM6/29/18
to
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:50:30 PM UTC-7, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 9:49:25 PM UTC+2, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
> >
> > I am quite happy to take credit/blame for what I write but I prefer not to
> > be misquoted (Franz!).
>
> Here is the version on my website, 2009/14. Correct me if I should have
> misquoted you.
What I wrote was:
> On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 9:49:25 PM UTC+2, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
> >
> > I am quite happy to take credit/blame for what I write but I prefer not to
> > be misquoted (Franz!).
>
> Here is the version on my website, 2009/14. Correct me if I should have
> misquoted you.
"77r has one of those "Rubenesque chicks with pipes" diagrams which
according to some possibly show the classical four elements, earth,
air, fire and water flowing from vents in a common pipe, along with a
fifth central vent apparently empty...I'm thinking the fifth one
associates with the "classical aether" since it wouldn't be expected
to be visible. There are text labels near each of the vents which might
be the names of the elements, and could serve as a Rosetta Stone for
the whole MS. Unfortunately the labels appear to be associated with
the interconnects between the vents, not the vents themselves."
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/sci.lang/QfLIzU7IFvE/NRYpTkbmtgUJ
I in my turn have forgotten where I saw the suggestion of a connection with the four (or five, counting quintessence) elements.
So there you are. The idea is not original with me, I merely mentioned it, and I can not provide a cite.
Dr. HotSalt
Franz Gnaedinger
Jun 30, 2018, 3:32:07 AM6/30/18
to
On Saturday, June 30, 2018 at 5:20:30 AM UTC+2, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
>
> What I wrote was:
>
> "77r has one of those "Rubenesque chicks with pipes" diagrams which
> according to some possibly show the classical four elements, earth,
> air, fire and water flowing from vents in a common pipe, along with a
> fifth central vent apparently empty...I'm thinking the fifth one
> associates with the "classical aether" since it wouldn't be expected
> to be visible. There are text labels near each of the vents which might
> be the names of the elements, and could serve as a Rosetta Stone for
> the whole MS. Unfortunately the labels appear to be associated with
> the interconnects between the vents, not the vents themselves."
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/sci.lang/QfLIzU7IFvE/NRYpTkbmtgUJ
>
> I in my turn have forgotten where I saw the suggestion of a connection with the four (or five, counting quintessence) elements.
>
> So there you are. The idea is not original with me, I merely mentioned it, and I can not provide a cite.
>
>
> Dr. HotSalt
"There are text labels near each of the vents which might be the names of the
elements, and could serve as a Rosetta Stone for the whole MS" - this was the
>
> What I wrote was:
>
> "77r has one of those "Rubenesque chicks with pipes" diagrams which
> according to some possibly show the classical four elements, earth,
> air, fire and water flowing from vents in a common pipe, along with a
> fifth central vent apparently empty...I'm thinking the fifth one
> associates with the "classical aether" since it wouldn't be expected
> to be visible. There are text labels near each of the vents which might
> be the names of the elements, and could serve as a Rosetta Stone for
> the whole MS. Unfortunately the labels appear to be associated with
> the interconnects between the vents, not the vents themselves."
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/sci.lang/QfLIzU7IFvE/NRYpTkbmtgUJ
>
> I in my turn have forgotten where I saw the suggestion of a connection with the four (or five, counting quintessence) elements.
>
> So there you are. The idea is not original with me, I merely mentioned it, and I can not provide a cite.
>
>
> Dr. HotSalt
"There are text labels near each of the vents which might be the names of the
sentence that made the spark fly. I see the tree on the left side as tree of
life, and the tubuli as an anticipation of the genes, more appropriate than
the globuli proposed later on by Darwin. Man and Woman at the top are Adam
and Eve, not created but evolved from the animal kingdom (see the animal at
the lower end of the tree), as mixture of the four or five elements. Not only
ideas themselves are important, also their history is. - I will correct my
text when I next revise my website.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 2, 2018, 2:44:19 AM7/2/18
to
> Hawai was discovered only much later, by Cook, so Francis Bacon could not
> have own a Hawaian glossary. But in his time there was a small Polynesian
> dictionary that he could have consulted. And, my favorite version, he could
> have spoken with dwellers of an island in the Southern Seas who arrived in
> England on a ship. Furthermore, the automatic writing might have been
> a Paleo-linguistic experiment by Bacon in gaining a glimpse of the language
> of Adam and Eve - sort of a back-evolution of language. There are many levels
> of the Voynich, and that's what interests me. In a time (ours) when only
> binary solutions count, either / or, nothing in between.
family, so if Google Translate (GT) recognizes Hawaian in my Voynich
transliteration this partly confirms my interpretation: a fake report
from Nova Atlantis in the Southern Seas written in a half-automatic pseudo-
Polynesian. GT found amazingly much sense in what I considered mere gibberish
interspersed with a few veiled key words in European languages. Did Francis
Bacon befriend a young man from Tahiti (which was discovered in 1606) ?
did he learn some Polynesian from him? and did he remember the melody of
that language and some words and phrases when he wrote his ms? Did he mourn
not only his lost youth but also an unfulfilled relation? Did he wish to be
young again for his alleged Polynesian friend? Many possible meanings and
motivations are combined and interwoven in the Voynich.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jul 2, 2018, 2:56:41 AM7/2/18
to
On 2018-07-02 06:44:17 +0000, Franz Gnaedinger said:
>>
>> Hawai was discovered only much later, by Cook, so Francis Bacon could not
>> have own a Hawaian glossary. But in his time there was a small Polynesian
>> dictionary that he could have consulted. And, my favorite version, he could
>> have spoken with dwellers of an island in the Southern Seas who arrived in
>> England on a ship. Furthermore, the automatic writing might have been
>> a Paleo-linguistic experiment by Bacon in gaining a glimpse of the language
>> of Adam and Eve - sort of a back-evolution of language. There are many levels
>> of the Voynich, and that's what interests me. In a time (ours) when only
>> binary solutions count, either / or, nothing in between.
>
> From a website I learned that Hawaian belongs to the Polynesian language
> family,
How is it possible that you didn't know that already?
>>
>> Hawai was discovered only much later, by Cook, so Francis Bacon could not
>> have own a Hawaian glossary. But in his time there was a small Polynesian
>> dictionary that he could have consulted. And, my favorite version, he could
>> have spoken with dwellers of an island in the Southern Seas who arrived in
>> England on a ship. Furthermore, the automatic writing might have been
>> a Paleo-linguistic experiment by Bacon in gaining a glimpse of the language
>> of Adam and Eve - sort of a back-evolution of language. There are many levels
>> of the Voynich, and that's what interests me. In a time (ours) when only
>> binary solutions count, either / or, nothing in between.
>
> From a website I learned that Hawaian belongs to the Polynesian language
> family,
> so if Google Translate (GT) recognizes Hawaian in my Voynich
> transliteration this partly confirms my interpretation: a fake report
> from Nova Atlantis in the Southern Seas written in a half-automatic pseudo-
> Polynesian. GT found amazingly much sense in what I considered mere gibberish
> interspersed with a few veiled key words in European languages. Did Francis
> Bacon befriend a young man from Tahiti (which was discovered in 1606) ?
> did he learn some Polynesian from him? and did he remember the melody of
> that language and some words and phrases when he wrote his ms? Did he mourn
> not only his lost youth but also an unfulfilled relation? Did he wish to be
> young again for his alleged Polynesian friend? Many possible meanings and
> motivations are combined and interwoven in the Voynich.
athel
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 2, 2018, 3:04:18 AM7/2/18
to
On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 8:56:41 AM UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> How is it possible that you didn't know that already?
I never occupied myself with southern languages, out of respect. But when
>
> How is it possible that you didn't know that already?
transliterating the Voynich in 2009 I had the impression that the language
sounds like Polynesian, what I heard of it in songs and in tv documentaries.
And now that Google Translate recognizes the language as Hawaian, and a web-
site tells me Hawaian is a Polynesian languge, I am mighty proud. The result
is the more valuable as I had no idea of those languages and could not have
influenced my transliteration.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Jul 2, 2018, 5:00:32 AM7/2/18
to
On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 9:44:19 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> From a website I learned that Hawaian belongs to the Polynesian language
> family
Wow. From a website, Fränzelissimus learns something that is known to any linguist worth his salt, while having the sheer cheek to disdain real linguists. Well, entirely in character.
> From a website I learned that Hawaian belongs to the Polynesian language
> family
Daud Deden
Jul 2, 2018, 10:05:15 AM7/2/18
to
Hawaii & Taiwan are both quite far north of the equator.
António Marques
Jul 2, 2018, 5:14:23 PM7/2/18
to
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jul 3, 2018, 3:00:33 AM7/3/18
to
On 2018-07-02 21:14:21 +0000, António Marques said:
> Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski <craoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 9:44:19 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>>> From a website I learned that Hawaian belongs to the Polynesian language
>>> family
>>
>> Wow. From a website, FrƤnzelissimus learns something that is known to any
Like me, for example. I can't remember a time when I didn't know that
-- probably I learned it from Mario Pei's book (I don't remember which
one) that I devoured in the public library when I was a teenager.
More important, if Magdalenian didn't reach Hawaii how did the people
there communicate wuth one another?
--
athel
> Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski <craoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 9:44:19 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>>> From a website I learned that Hawaian belongs to the Polynesian language
>>> family
>>
>> linguist worth his salt, while having the sheer cheek to disdain real
>> linguists. Well, entirely in character.
>
> Ahem. You mean to say itā€™s known to any sloppy amateur.
>> linguists. Well, entirely in character.
>
Like me, for example. I can't remember a time when I didn't know that
-- probably I learned it from Mario Pei's book (I don't remember which
one) that I devoured in the public library when I was a teenager.
More important, if Magdalenian didn't reach Hawaii how did the people
there communicate wuth one another?
--
athel
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 3, 2018, 3:05:03 AM7/3/18
to
Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>From a website I learned that Hawaian belongs to the Polynesian language
>family, so if Google Translate (GT) recognizes Hawaian in my Voynich
>transliteration this partly confirms my interpretation:
No it doesn't. Google Translate 'recognizes Hawaian in almost
anything, so that proves nothing.
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=36753
Meanwhile, I modified my Interlingua-to-Hebrew script conversion
(http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm) to
include a variant in which the result looks MORE like real Yiddish.
The result, strangely (or not so strange if you think about it longer)
is that GT does not 'recognize' that as Yiddish and does not think it
can translate that. Instead, it largely transcibes back the Hebrew
letters into what looks somewhat like the original underlying
Interlingua. The LSD-like 'translations' I got with my earlier
'Yiddish' that violated the rules of that language more, are now gone.
So if GT can 'translate' something, it does NOT mean it makes sense.
Rather the contrary.
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>From a website I learned that Hawaian belongs to the Polynesian language
>family, so if Google Translate (GT) recognizes Hawaian in my Voynich
>transliteration this partly confirms my interpretation:
anything, so that proves nothing.
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=36753
Meanwhile, I modified my Interlingua-to-Hebrew script conversion
(http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm) to
include a variant in which the result looks MORE like real Yiddish.
The result, strangely (or not so strange if you think about it longer)
is that GT does not 'recognize' that as Yiddish and does not think it
can translate that. Instead, it largely transcibes back the Hebrew
letters into what looks somewhat like the original underlying
Interlingua. The LSD-like 'translations' I got with my earlier
'Yiddish' that violated the rules of that language more, are now gone.
So if GT can 'translate' something, it does NOT mean it makes sense.
Rather the contrary.
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 3, 2018, 3:10:03 AM7/3/18
to
>Many possible meanings and
>motivations are combined and interwoven in the Voynich.
No. Or not as far as we know. We still know very little.
>motivations are combined and interwoven in the Voynich.
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 3, 2018, 3:10:04 AM7/3/18
to
>GT found amazingly much sense in what I considered mere gibberish
>interspersed with a few veiled key words in European languages.
Not "found sense", but "hallucinated sense", by wrongly applying Deep
>interspersed with a few veiled key words in European languages.
Learning techniques without a proper sensibility check on the source
text.
António Marques
Jul 3, 2018, 9:16:38 AM7/3/18
to
Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
> <fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>
>> GT found amazingly much sense in what I considered mere gibberish
>> interspersed with a few veiled key words in European languages.
>
> Not "found sense", but "hallucinated sense",
You know what, I think we’re just witnessing Franz finding a soulmate in
> Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
> <fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>
>> GT found amazingly much sense in what I considered mere gibberish
>> interspersed with a few veiled key words in European languages.
>
> Not "found sense", but "hallucinated sense",
GT.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 4, 2018, 2:50:17 AM7/4/18
to
On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 9:00:33 AM UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> More important, if Magdalenian didn't reach Hawaii how did the people
> there communicate wuth one another?
I know a lot, but a lotter I know notter. While others claim to know everything
>
> More important, if Magdalenian didn't reach Hawaii how did the people
> there communicate wuth one another?
but when I probe their knowledge it is often a mere sliver of ice on a winter
lake that carries nobody. I learn easily and quickly when I need to know
something about a topic, and then it's often like falling in love. Till I am
ninety years old I will go on with Magdalenian, then I might go for the
language of South Africa in the Middle Stone Age (people of the Blombos cave,
75,000 years ago). Once I took a sneak peak into their mythology, proposing
KA for what is beyond, in the sky (Magdalenian CA), inside rock, in a lake,
or inside ourselves, accessible to a shaman or a shamaness in a self-induced
trance achieved with a breathing technique. Animals in the cave art of Europe
and in the rock art of South Africa are often depicted as if emerging from
or disappearing into clefts and niches in the rock, anticipating Vladimir
Vernadzky's famous dictum of life being the metamorphosis of rock. This will
be my starting point, on the morning of my 90th anniversary. Have a little
patience till then.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 4, 2018, 3:01:22 AM7/4/18
to
On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 9:05:03 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger scribeva:
A line from my transliteration / Google Translate recognized it as Hawaian
and gave an English version / then I translated the English sentence into
Hawaian // comparing the two sentences, one in pseudo-Polynesian, the other
in Hawaian
Iuvero ihuvà daluuvà daluvà daluuà iuvà aluvà dalà
Iuvero ihuvà daluuvà daluvà daluuà iuvà aluvà dalà
Uaʻike wau he nui koʻu kuleana
Really a big difference, but still fun. And I have no problem with the gap
between the two versions, as the Voynich is written in a pseudo-Polynesian
(my opinion).
> Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger scribeva:
and gave an English version / then I translated the English sentence into
Hawaian // comparing the two sentences, one in pseudo-Polynesian, the other
in Hawaian
Iuvero ihuvà daluuvà daluvà daluuà iuvà aluvà dalà
I know that I have a great deal of responsibility
Uaʻike wau he nui koʻu kuleana
Iuvero ihuvà daluuvà daluvà daluuà iuvà aluvà dalà
Really a big difference, but still fun. And I have no problem with the gap
between the two versions, as the Voynich is written in a pseudo-Polynesian
(my opinion).
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 4, 2018, 3:20:09 AM7/4/18
to
On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 9:10:03 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger scribeva:
Pointing out a language and providing a tiny bit of a translation is not
enough. We have to consider all aspects of the Voynich, and then find
a solution of matching complexity. I found that in Francis Bacon and
his situation in maybe 1622. I don't know the truth, which can only be
approximated anyway, but I go on with my approach as long as one conclusion
follows from the other. Always comparing the complexity of the Voynich
with the one of Bacon's life and work.
> Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger scribeva:
>
> >Many possible meanings and
> >motivations are combined and interwoven in the Voynich.
>
> No. Or not as far as we know. We still know very little.
Thinking is a question of what I call matching patterns of complexity.
> >Many possible meanings and
> >motivations are combined and interwoven in the Voynich.
>
> No. Or not as far as we know. We still know very little.
Pointing out a language and providing a tiny bit of a translation is not
enough. We have to consider all aspects of the Voynich, and then find
a solution of matching complexity. I found that in Francis Bacon and
his situation in maybe 1622. I don't know the truth, which can only be
approximated anyway, but I go on with my approach as long as one conclusion
follows from the other. Always comparing the complexity of the Voynich
with the one of Bacon's life and work.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Jul 4, 2018, 4:22:17 AM7/4/18
to
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Jul 4, 2018, 4:23:46 AM7/4/18
to
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 4, 2018, 8:03:43 AM7/4/18
to
On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:50:17 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> I might go for the
> language of South Africa in the Middle Stone Age (people of the Blombos cave,
> 75,000 years ago). Once I took a sneak peak into their mythology, proposing
> KA
On what basis?
> I might go for the
> language of South Africa in the Middle Stone Age (people of the Blombos cave,
> 75,000 years ago). Once I took a sneak peak into their mythology, proposing
> KA
António Marques
Jul 4, 2018, 10:02:10 AM7/4/18
to
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:50:17 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>
>> I might go for the
>> language of South Africa in the Middle Stone Age (people of the Blombos cave,
>> 75,000 years ago). Once I took a sneak peak into their mythology, proposing
>> KA
>
> On what basis?
Being African, they use K rather than C.
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:50:17 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>
>> I might go for the
>> language of South Africa in the Middle Stone Age (people of the Blombos cave,
>> 75,000 years ago). Once I took a sneak peak into their mythology, proposing
>> KA
>
> On what basis?
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 4, 2018, 11:22:29 AM7/4/18
to
On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 10:02:10 AM UTC-4, António Marques wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:50:17 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> >> I might go for the
> >> language of South Africa in the Middle Stone Age (people of the Blombos cave,
> >> 75,000 years ago). Once I took a sneak peak into their mythology, proposing
> >> KA
> > On what basis?
>
> Being African, they use K rather than C.
Did you mean Afrikan?
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:50:17 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> >> I might go for the
> >> language of South Africa in the Middle Stone Age (people of the Blombos cave,
> >> 75,000 years ago). Once I took a sneak peak into their mythology, proposing
> >> KA
> > On what basis?
>
> Being African, they use K rather than C.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 6, 2018, 2:57:36 AM7/6/18
to
> I know a lot, but a lotter I know notter. While others claim to know everything
> but when I probe their knowledge it is often a mere sliver of ice on a winter
> lake that carries nobody. I learn easily and quickly when I need to know
> something about a topic, and then it's often like falling in love. Till I am
> ninety years old I will go on with Magdalenian, then I might go for the
> language of South Africa in the Middle Stone Age (people of the Blombos cave,
> 75,000 years ago). Once I took a sneak peak into their mythology, proposing
> KA for what is beyond, in the sky (Magdalenian CA), inside rock, in a lake,
> or inside ourselves, accessible to a shaman or a shamaness in a self-induced
> trance achieved with a breathing technique. Animals in the cave art of Europe
> and in the rock art of South Africa are often depicted as if emerging from
> or disappearing into clefts and niches in the rock, anticipating Vladimir
> Vernadzky's famous dictum of life being the metamorphosis of rock. This will
> be my starting point, on the morning of my 90th anniversary. Have a little
> patience till then.
what time it is, while I notter know what time is, time per se,
the nature of time representing a deeper level of not knowing,
Dear editorial board of the OED, if you would kindly take up
_notter_ in your dictionary, my life will not have been in vain.
Before the emergence of life there were 250 minerals in the crust
of our planet. Meanwhile, owing to life as metamorphosis of rock,
there are 5,000 minerals, twenty times more. The blue planet is
life's work of art.
Google Translate is fun. Metamorphing a Dylan song verse from
English to English via Hawaian, Finnisch, and Hausa (the languages
GT recognized in my Voynich transliteration)
Flowers on the hillside, bloomin’ crazy
Crickets talkin’ back and forth in rhyme
Blue river runnin’ slow and lazy
I could stay with you forever and never realize the time
yielded
Pigs on a hill are fun
Music is playing
Bluen Runnin is delayed
I can be comfortable and forever in time
If I had more time I would experiment and go for a cover version.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 6, 2018, 3:08:35 AM7/6/18
to
On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:03:43 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> On what basis?
The South Africans at Pinnacle Point, 125,000 years ago, already used a glue
of two components, and the ones of the Blombos cave, 75,000 years ago, made
a geometrical drawing of overlapping rhombs on a red ocher prism, and used
perforated snail shells. Tentatively I read the overlapping rhombs as myth
of Blue Crane in the act of creating the world, and the shells lined up on
a thread as a calendar (guided by numerous calendar reconstructions that
lead far back in time and also to Africa). Then, most important, is the rock
art of southern Africa and their genetic parallel with European cave art:
animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and niches in the rock
(by 'genetic' I mean this transition goes far back in time, before 75 000 BP).
Magdalenian CA meaning sky, KA might have meant the beyond, the heavens,
but also the inside of rock, the ground of a pond or lake, and what is deep
inside ourselves, accessible to a shaman or a shamaness in a trance induced
by a special breathing technique. I checked then for KA words in the languages
of the San, the Ainu, and the Greeks. Not conclusive at all, but before you
can draw a map of an island you have to explore it, following intuition.
>
> On what basis?
The South Africans at Pinnacle Point, 125,000 years ago, already used a glue
of two components, and the ones of the Blombos cave, 75,000 years ago, made
a geometrical drawing of overlapping rhombs on a red ocher prism, and used
perforated snail shells. Tentatively I read the overlapping rhombs as myth
of Blue Crane in the act of creating the world, and the shells lined up on
a thread as a calendar (guided by numerous calendar reconstructions that
lead far back in time and also to Africa). Then, most important, is the rock
art of southern Africa and their genetic parallel with European cave art:
animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and niches in the rock
(by 'genetic' I mean this transition goes far back in time, before 75 000 BP).
Magdalenian CA meaning sky, KA might have meant the beyond, the heavens,
but also the inside of rock, the ground of a pond or lake, and what is deep
inside ourselves, accessible to a shaman or a shamaness in a trance induced
by a special breathing technique. I checked then for KA words in the languages
of the San, the Ainu, and the Greeks. Not conclusive at all, but before you
can draw a map of an island you have to explore it, following intuition.
Dr. HotSalt
Jul 6, 2018, 4:13:41 AM7/6/18
to
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:35:03 PM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 27 Jun 2018 12:53:07 -0700 (PDT): "Dr. HotSalt"
> <alie...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
> >On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 8:25:04 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:09:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> >> scribeva:
> >>
> >> >>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
> >> >
> >> >Interlingua:
> >> >- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
> >> >gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
> >> >station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
> >> >terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
> >> >basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
> >> >station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
> >> >terra non muta.
> >>
> >> No the other Hebrew conversion (t s teth, o as waw holam):
> >>
> >> Interpreted as Yiddish:
> >> - Proceeding from the Statutory Protocol in the Revolution of the
> >> Corruption Tribunal, according to the laws of the Republic. The whole
> >> of it is the statue of the statue in it, the real pleasure of love.
> >> The Staten Island District, the Territorial Territorial Territorial
> >> Territory, and the United States of America, have been launched in
> >> October 2013, and have been launched by the Supreme Court of Terrorism
> >> and the Plus Plus. As all of the Staten Island, a charger, cow all the
> >> stonework amongst all the Staten Island territories.
> >>
> >> And as Hebrew:
> >> - Proctogenesis
> >
> > !!!!
> >
> > I suspect it is actually an AI and is messing with you.
>
> It seems you didn't follow the thread
Yes, I did. I merely found the neologism "proctogenesis" simultaneously
amusing, startling, and repulsive in approximately equal measure.
> and didn't read
> http://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en05.htm . The above were
> 'translations' by Google Translate of sensible and coherent
> (non-hallucinant) Interlingua text I wrote, but converted to the
> Hebrew alphabet and interpreted by GT as either Yiddish or Hebrew
> (while of course it isn't anything like either).
Yes, I did, and found it interesting. I have been following other papers
and discussions regarding the current explorations of artificial
intelligence that science fiction never considered.
> And yes, GT, like DeepL, probably uses Deep Learning techniques, which
> is a form of Articificial Intelligence (AI).
Well, to me, its invention of "proctogenesis" suggests that it has a weird
sense of humor.
Dr. HotSalt
> Wed, 27 Jun 2018 12:53:07 -0700 (PDT): "Dr. HotSalt"
> <alie...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
> >On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 8:25:04 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:09:13 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> >> scribeva:
> >>
> >> >>Done: http://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/scrptura/ina-Hebr.c.htm
> >> >
> >> >Interlingua:
> >> >- Proque in un station spatial in un orbita circumterrestre il non ha
> >> >gravitate, ben que le Terra es presso? Le explication es que le
> >> >station es in un cadite libere continue. Le station gira circum le
> >> >terra e cade al terra, ma quando illo ha arrivate a un puncto plus
> >> >basse, illac le superficie terrestre es etiam plus basse. Assi le
> >> >station continue a cader, ben que le distantia inter le station e le
> >> >terra non muta.
> >>
> >> No the other Hebrew conversion (t s teth, o as waw holam):
> >>
> >> Interpreted as Yiddish:
> >> - Proceeding from the Statutory Protocol in the Revolution of the
> >> Corruption Tribunal, according to the laws of the Republic. The whole
> >> of it is the statue of the statue in it, the real pleasure of love.
> >> The Staten Island District, the Territorial Territorial Territorial
> >> Territory, and the United States of America, have been launched in
> >> October 2013, and have been launched by the Supreme Court of Terrorism
> >> and the Plus Plus. As all of the Staten Island, a charger, cow all the
> >> stonework amongst all the Staten Island territories.
> >>
> >> And as Hebrew:
> >> - Proctogenesis
> >
> > !!!!
> >
> > I suspect it is actually an AI and is messing with you.
>
> It seems you didn't follow the thread
Yes, I did. I merely found the neologism "proctogenesis" simultaneously
amusing, startling, and repulsive in approximately equal measure.
> and didn't read
> http://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en05.htm . The above were
> 'translations' by Google Translate of sensible and coherent
> (non-hallucinant) Interlingua text I wrote, but converted to the
> Hebrew alphabet and interpreted by GT as either Yiddish or Hebrew
> (while of course it isn't anything like either).
Yes, I did, and found it interesting. I have been following other papers
and discussions regarding the current explorations of artificial
intelligence that science fiction never considered.
> And yes, GT, like DeepL, probably uses Deep Learning techniques, which
> is a form of Articificial Intelligence (AI).
Well, to me, its invention of "proctogenesis" suggests that it has a weird
sense of humor.
Dr. HotSalt
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 6, 2018, 8:56:25 AM7/6/18
to
On Friday, July 6, 2018 at 3:08:35 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:03:43 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > On what basis?
>
> The South Africans at Pinnacle Point, 125,000 years ago, already used a glue
> of two components, and the ones of the Blombos cave, 75,000 years ago, made
> a geometrical drawing of overlapping rhombs on a red ocher prism, and used
> perforated snail shells. Tentatively I read the overlapping rhombs as myth
> of Blue Crane in the act of creating the world, and the shells lined up on
> a thread as a calendar (guided by numerous calendar reconstructions that
> lead far back in time and also to Africa). Then, most important, is the rock
> art of southern Africa and their genetic parallel with European cave art:
> animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and niches in the rock
> (by 'genetic' I mean this transition goes far back in time, before 75 000 BP).
> Magdalenian CA meaning sky,
Even if there were any legitimate source of that, what does it have to do
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:03:43 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > On what basis?
>
> The South Africans at Pinnacle Point, 125,000 years ago, already used a glue
> of two components, and the ones of the Blombos cave, 75,000 years ago, made
> a geometrical drawing of overlapping rhombs on a red ocher prism, and used
> perforated snail shells. Tentatively I read the overlapping rhombs as myth
> of Blue Crane in the act of creating the world, and the shells lined up on
> a thread as a calendar (guided by numerous calendar reconstructions that
> lead far back in time and also to Africa). Then, most important, is the rock
> art of southern Africa and their genetic parallel with European cave art:
> animals emerging from and disappearing into clefts and niches in the rock
> (by 'genetic' I mean this transition goes far back in time, before 75 000 BP).
> Magdalenian CA meaning sky,
with
> KA might have meant the beyond, the heavens,
> but also the inside of rock, the ground of a pond or lake, and what is deep
> inside ourselves, accessible to a shaman or a shamaness in a trance induced
> by a special breathing technique. I checked then for KA words in the languages
> of the San, the Ainu, and the Greeks. Not conclusive at all, but before you
> can draw a map of an island you have to explore it, following intuition.
Tilde
Jul 7, 2018, 12:38:17 AM7/7/18
to
>> Panveseroan dalan iuà dapiuvà dapiuvà vàniuu anluvà nanà
>> kanivas inuà dalero dakuvà dalan ivà dalero iukuà sen
>> dakuuvà dalero ihuvà ian ihuvà ihuvà ihikiuà daluuvà akuuvà ian
>> sankuuvà daluuvà daluuvà ihuvero iuvà ihuvero ihuanan iuv
>> daluuvà danihuavà ihan kuvà iuvà nihuuvà daluvà dalen iuvà
>> daluvà ihuvà dakan ihuvà dalero ihuuà daluuvà niuvà nan
>> sihuvà dalero iuvà dalero ihuvà daniuuvà daluuvà nan
>> dakuvà dakuuvà daluvà ihuuvduà sero ihuukà daluuvà nan
>> vero iuuvà nihuà danasiuus ihiliuvà dan iuuvà dakero
>> daluuvà niuà nihuuà daluuvà daluuvà dales daluuà nero iua
>> dakero ihuan daluuvà daluuà dalero ihuuà daluvà daniuvà
>> iuvero ihuvà daluuvà daluvà daluuà iuvà aluvà dalà
>> ihualà dalero iuvà anihuà daluvà iuvà dalan
>> vero vanihas ipiuà npiuan ihues dalià
>>
>>
>> Paenihihen ihuaipas àpiapiuasero akuaven sero
>> viuuilias iukà ikiaven àkuavero ipiuipià sàkà
>> kias akuuvà àluuvà ikiuavà luas ihiuuliuà servà
>> sasero dailias iuavas iliualuà ikiavà sasero
>> kas ihu luavero piuas ihua sa ihluavà sasero
>> àkuuaven ia luuavà ihàlansens iulan
>> sanihuas àsero ias iuasà dakà
>> sas ihaikiuà akuavà vian sasero
>> iha ikias iuaven ikiuavà dakà
>>
>> Pihuavihà ven ihuu senven ihan envà
>> àihuuus iukià kuaves akiuan kailia
>> luas iliuà ihavà kauuuukà s iavà vero
>> vero ihan ikuà aluan iuas aluua vero
>> ihas iuan iuas iliuà sero dailiuan vero
>> àquuas ihuan viuuan
>>
>
> For the fun of it I fed Google Translator with my transliteration of three
> Voynich paragraphs, and let Google detect the language:
>
> Panveseroan dalan is one of the most beautiful and most beautiful people
> in the world
> The only one in the world is to get rid of it
> dakuuvà dalero ihuvà ian ihuvà ihuvà ihikiuà works in the world
> The work of the workshop is to work in the environment
> daluhuas danihuavà ihan kuvà iuvà nihuuvà daluvà dalen iuvà
> You will be able to find out how much you have to do today
> This is the first time in the world of the world
> Dakuvà dakuuvà works in front of the world today
> This is the case in the southern part of the world
> This is what I have done in my life
> There are many ways in which we can work together
> I know that I have a great deal of responsibility
> The only one in the world is the same
> vero vanihas ipiuà npiuan ihues student
>
> This is a seamless goddess inhumane
> In addition, we need to be able to access the target computer
> These two-dimensional two-dimensional two-dimensional apartments are
equipped
> Sasero dailias is a major source of sedimentary work
> to face luavero piuas over his or her lungs
> This is the first step in the future
> It is not possible to know what to do
> There are many different types of vian sasero
> Iua ikias iuaven licensed
>
> Pihuaviha is coming senven in the near future
> Infected style has been cut off
> Two-dimensional two-dimensional layout
> What is your name?
> ihas iuan iuas iliuà sero dailiuan vero
> search for iuann viuuan
Ifed that to google translate (not that I doubted your
posting), but it was just amazing what it cranked out.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 7, 2018, 3:38:15 AM7/7/18
to
On Friday, July 6, 2018 at 2:56:25 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Yet you have no explanation whatsoever for KA.
I gave you the brfst pssbl summary of my reasoning, all I can offer.
>
> Yet you have no explanation whatsoever for KA.
I could go on, but I doubt you are really interested. Well, I might try.
As I said, I started from Magdalenain CA for sky. The sky is beyond,
out of reach for Stone Age people. Also the inside of rock is out of
reach, origin of animals appearing from clefts and niches in the rock,
both in European cave art and South African rock art. Deep waters were
considered entrances to the Underworld in Celtic times and certainly
also before. Then our inside, the depth of our soul, is a mystery too.
So maybe CA for sky, for the heavenly beyond, derives from another
word of beyond, more general, KA for the sky above, for the inside
of rock, for the depth of water, for what is deep inside ourselves,
accessible to a shaman or shamaness in a trance achieved by a special
breathing technique? Consider that in a painted caves all elements come
together: inside rock, the walls and ceiling often representing the sky
(Chauvet, Lascaux, Altamira, and many others), water trickling out of
many cave walls, rituals performed in caves affecting the soul of those
who participate. So European cave art may prolong a very ancient African
tradition, and CA might go back to KA of which I found ample traces in
the languages of the San in southern Africa and Australian aborigines
and Ainu on Hokkaido. Not conclusive at all, as I said before. Nothing
you can find in textbooks, but emerging from half a century of studying
cave art.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 7, 2018, 3:48:42 AM7/7/18
to
On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 6:38:17 AM UTC+2, Tilde wrote:
>
> Ifed that to google translate (not that I doubted your
> posting), but it was just amazing what it cranked out.
Quite hilarious, isn't it? Francis Bacon would have had a lot of fun playing
>
> Ifed that to google translate (not that I doubted your
> posting), but it was just amazing what it cranked out.
with Google Translate.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 7, 2018, 8:47:51 AM7/7/18
to
On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 3:38:15 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Friday, July 6, 2018 at 2:56:25 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > Yet you have no explanation whatsoever for KA.
>
> I gave you the brfst pssbl summary of my reasoning,
Which contained nothing at all bearing on "K," a voiceless velar stop
> On Friday, July 6, 2018 at 2:56:25 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > Yet you have no explanation whatsoever for KA.
>
> I gave you the brfst pssbl summary of my reasoning,
consonant, or on "A," a low central unrounded vowel.
> all I can offer.
> I could go on, but I doubt you are really interested. Well, I might try.
> As I said, I started from Magdalenain CA for sky.
consonant, or on "A," a low central unrounded vowel.
> The sky is beyond,
> out of reach for Stone Age people. Also the inside of rock is out of
> reach, origin of animals appearing from clefts and niches in the rock,
> both in European cave art and South African rock art. Deep waters were
> considered entrances to the Underworld in Celtic times and certainly
> also before. Then our inside, the depth of our soul, is a mystery too.
> So maybe CA for sky, for the heavenly beyond, derives from another
> word of beyond, more general, KA for the sky above, for the inside
> of rock, for the depth of water, for what is deep inside ourselves,
> accessible to a shaman or shamaness in a trance achieved by a special
> breathing technique? Consider that in a painted caves all elements come
> together: inside rock, the walls and ceiling often representing the sky
> (Chauvet, Lascaux, Altamira, and many others), water trickling out of
> many cave walls, rituals performed in caves affecting the soul of those
> who participate. So European cave art may prolong a very ancient African
> tradition, and CA might go back to KA of which I found ample traces in
> the languages of the San in southern Africa and Australian aborigines
> and Ainu on Hokkaido. Not conclusive at all, as I said before. Nothing
> you can find in textbooks, but emerging from half a century of studying
> cave art.
whatsoever on any linguistic matter.
"Cave art" does not contain phonetic transcriptions.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 7, 2018, 8:48:27 AM7/7/18
to
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 9, 2018, 3:09:09 AM7/9/18
to
On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 2:47:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Which contained nothing at all bearing on "K," a voiceless velar stop
> consonant, or on "A," a low central unrounded vowel.
I go back from Magdalenian CA for the sky, KA suggested by the languages
>
> Which contained nothing at all bearing on "K," a voiceless velar stop
> consonant, or on "A," a low central unrounded vowel.
of the San, of the Australian aborigines, and of the Ainu, some of the very
oldest languages, and relying on the calls of the blue crane (grus paradisea),
emblematic animal of South Africa
The blue crane has a distinctive rattling croak, fairly high-pitched
at call, which can be heard from far away. It is, however, usually quiet.
I will have to check that again; the first notion dates from June 2005
when I interpreted the overlapping rhombs on a red ocher prism from the
Blombos cave as Blue Crane flapping his wings and thus creating the world.
As I said, this are preliminary intuitions, not conclusive at all.
> Which no justification at all bearing on "C," a voiceless velar stop
> consonant, or on "A," a low central unrounded vowel.
gaining a wide picture.
> Yes, however many times you type out your fantasies, they have no bearing
> whatsoever on any linguistic matter.
>
> "Cave art" does not contain phonetic transcriptions.
biology, with archaeology, with mathematics, animal language does not exist,
body language does not exist, visual language does not exist. I am tired of
them. Einstein: intuition is more important than knowledge, because the
latter covers only what we already know, while the former embraces the
whole world.
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 9, 2018, 7:25:35 AM7/9/18
to
On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 3:09:09 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 2:47:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Which contained nothing at all bearing on "K," a voiceless velar stop
> > consonant, or on "A," a low central unrounded vowel.
>
> I go back from Magdalenian CA for the sky,
No justification has ever been presented for "C," perhaps a voiceless
> On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 2:47:51 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Which contained nothing at all bearing on "K," a voiceless velar stop
> > consonant, or on "A," a low central unrounded vowel.
>
> I go back from Magdalenian CA for the sky,
palatal stop or affricate, or for "A."
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 9, 2018, 9:00:44 AM7/9/18
to
Mon, 9 Jul 2018 04:25:34 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
Pure phantasy by Franz. And phantasy comes from the devil:
http://rudhar.com/writings/Pessoa/HoraDiab/hrddb-ia.htm . A
sympathetic and human looking devil, that is.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
http://rudhar.com/writings/Pessoa/HoraDiab/hrddb-ia.htm . A
sympathetic and human looking devil, that is.
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 9, 2018, 9:00:44 AM7/9/18
to
know and use in that form) already existed 8000 or 12000 years before
CE, in Franz's view of scientific methodology, so just specifying a
letter C is sufficient, no further phonetic specification is required.
Clear and simple.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 10, 2018, 2:37:01 AM7/10/18
to
On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 2:48:27 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> No, he had far more productive things to do with his time.
In my opinion Frqancis Bacon hid in the the Voynich ms what he couldn't say
>
> No, he had far more productive things to do with his time.
openly in his Nova Atlantis: a first idea or hunch of evolution which included
language - how did language evolve and develop and branch? His half-automatic
writing in pseudo-Polynesian might well have been an experiment in language
evolution: can it bud for example into Latin? Task for a student: study my
transliterations of 87r and 77r and go for the entire text, not very difficult,
and may reward you with more key words alluding to several European languages.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 10, 2018, 2:52:22 AM7/10/18
to
On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 3:00:44 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> The 26 letter Latin alphabet (that even the Romans themselves didn't
> know and use in that form) already existed 8000 or 12000 years before
> CE, in Franz's view of scientific methodology, so just specifying a
> letter C is sufficient, no further phonetic specification is required.
> Clear and simple.
Early languages had clicks, so KA might have sounded quite different,
>
> The 26 letter Latin alphabet (that even the Romans themselves didn't
> know and use in that form) already existed 8000 or 12000 years before
> CE, in Franz's view of scientific methodology, so just specifying a
> letter C is sufficient, no further phonetic specification is required.
> Clear and simple.
imitating the call of the Blue Crane that can be heard for miles, or of
the Crowned Crane. Why do you fix each and every detail before you gained
a wider picture? The first alphabet with vowels and consonants is found
on the Phaistos Disc, and the first writing are red ocher dots on cave
walls, claiming a next life in the beyond for a worthy soul, SAI meaning
life, existence, invoked by the red ocher, and CA for sky by the cave wall
representing heaven, SAI CA wherefrom Greek psychae 'soul' ...
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 10, 2018, 7:05:03 AM7/10/18
to
Mon, 9 Jul 2018 23:52:20 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 3:00:44 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>> The 26 letter Latin alphabet (that even the Romans themselves didn't
>> know and use in that form) already existed 8000 or 12000 years before
>> CE, in Franz's view of scientific methodology, so just specifying a
>> letter C is sufficient, no further phonetic specification is required.
>> Clear and simple.
>
>Early languages had clicks, so KA might have sounded quite different,
>imitating the call of the Blue Crane that can be heard for miles, or of
>the Crowned Crane. Why do you fix each and every detail before you gained
>a wider picture?
There is no picture, and there are no details.
WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW.
Just like you, I had rather we knew. But we don't. Any attempt to
write about it is fantasy writing, science-fiction. Nothing else.
>The first alphabet with vowels and consonants is found
>on the Phaistos Disc, and the first writing are red ocher dots on cave
>walls, claiming a next life in the beyond for a worthy soul, SAI meaning
>life, existence, invoked by the red ocher, and CA for sky by the cave wall
>representing heaven, SAI CA wherefrom Greek psychae 'soul' ...
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 3:00:44 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>> The 26 letter Latin alphabet (that even the Romans themselves didn't
>> know and use in that form) already existed 8000 or 12000 years before
>> CE, in Franz's view of scientific methodology, so just specifying a
>> letter C is sufficient, no further phonetic specification is required.
>> Clear and simple.
>
>Early languages had clicks, so KA might have sounded quite different,
>imitating the call of the Blue Crane that can be heard for miles, or of
>the Crowned Crane. Why do you fix each and every detail before you gained
>a wider picture?
WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW.
Just like you, I had rather we knew. But we don't. Any attempt to
write about it is fantasy writing, science-fiction. Nothing else.
>The first alphabet with vowels and consonants is found
>on the Phaistos Disc, and the first writing are red ocher dots on cave
>walls, claiming a next life in the beyond for a worthy soul, SAI meaning
>life, existence, invoked by the red ocher, and CA for sky by the cave wall
>representing heaven, SAI CA wherefrom Greek psychae 'soul' ...
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 10, 2018, 8:07:22 AM7/10/18
to
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 2:37:01 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 2:48:27 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[Maybe my remark was about Francis Bacon, maybe it wasn't]
> On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 2:48:27 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > No, he had far more productive things to do with his time.
>
> In my opinion Frqancis Bacon hid in the the Voynich ms what he couldn't say
> openly in his Nova Atlantis: a first idea or hunch of evolution which included
> language - how did language evolve and develop and branch? His half-automatic
> writing in pseudo-Polynesian might well have been an experiment in language
> evolution: can it bud for example into Latin? Task for a student: study my
> transliterations of 87r and 77r and go for the entire text, not very difficult,
> and may reward you with more key words alluding to several European languages.
Plenty of people in Bacon's time were speculating about language evolution
>
> In my opinion Frqancis Bacon hid in the the Voynich ms what he couldn't say
> openly in his Nova Atlantis: a first idea or hunch of evolution which included
> language - how did language evolve and develop and branch? His half-automatic
> writing in pseudo-Polynesian might well have been an experiment in language
> evolution: can it bud for example into Latin? Task for a student: study my
> transliterations of 87r and 77r and go for the entire text, not very difficult,
> and may reward you with more key words alluding to several European languages.
and interrelationships. See any history of (proto-)linguistics.
Next counterfactual fantasy?
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 10, 2018, 8:10:08 AM7/10/18
to
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 2:52:22 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 3:00:44 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >
> > The 26 letter Latin alphabet (that even the Romans themselves didn't
> > know and use in that form) already existed 8000 or 12000 years before
> > CE, in Franz's view of scientific methodology, so just specifying a
> > letter C is sufficient, no further phonetic specification is required.
> > Clear and simple.
>
> Early languages had clicks,
How could you know such a thing?
> On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 3:00:44 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >
> > The 26 letter Latin alphabet (that even the Romans themselves didn't
> > know and use in that form) already existed 8000 or 12000 years before
> > CE, in Franz's view of scientific methodology, so just specifying a
> > letter C is sufficient, no further phonetic specification is required.
> > Clear and simple.
>
> Early languages had clicks,
> so KA might have sounded quite different,
> imitating the call of the Blue Crane that can be heard for miles, or of
> the Crowned Crane. Why do you fix each and every detail before you gained
> a wider picture? The first alphabet with vowels and consonants is found
> on the Phaistos Disc,
extremely unlikely that its large number of symbols are letters of
an alphabet.
> and the first writing are red ocher dots on cave
> walls, claiming a next life in the beyond for a worthy soul, SAI meaning
> life, existence, invoked by the red ocher, and CA for sky by the cave wall
> representing heaven, SAI CA wherefrom Greek psychae 'soul' ...
justification whatsoever for connecting "red ocher dots" with any
particular sound.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 11, 2018, 2:10:13 AM7/11/18
to
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 1:05:03 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> There is no picture, and there are no details.
>
> WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW.
>
> Just like you, I had rather we knew. But we don't. Any attempt to
> write about it is fantasy writing, science-fiction. Nothing else.
The past is getting more and more fragmented. Archaeological and Paleo-
>
> There is no picture, and there are no details.
>
> WE SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW.
>
> Just like you, I had rather we knew. But we don't. Any attempt to
> write about it is fantasy writing, science-fiction. Nothing else.
linguistic imagination, trained by decades of patient and thorough studies,
weaves a thread among such fragments, joining some of them, completing
the picture, or at least partial pictures, filling the mosaic by and by.
Not just fantasy, imagination trained by long and careful studies, and
apperception gained from excursions beyond the hedges and fault lines
of academe.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 11, 2018, 2:20:49 AM7/11/18
to
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 2:07:22 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> Plenty of people in Bacon's time were speculating about language evolution
> and interrelationships. See any history of (proto-)linguistics.
>
> Next counterfactual fantasy?
I am speaking of _biological_ evolution, the mechanism of which might have
>
> Plenty of people in Bacon's time were speculating about language evolution
> and interrelationships. See any history of (proto-)linguistics.
>
> Next counterfactual fantasy?
been tried to find out via the experiment of half-automatic writing. I see
no hunch of biological evolution in any work of the Renaissance or previous
epochs. The one in the Voynich would be a sensation, if confirmed by a full
transliteration. 87r shows the four elements earth water air fire at the top
out of which everything is composed (ancient belief going back to the Ionians
and possibly still earlier times) in various measures. All human beings are
equal and unequal (Bacon, in my opinion, was befriended with Edward de Vere
alias William Shakespeare who made the principle of equal unequal his topic)
and from this constitution (equal unequal) might come not only variation at
a specific point in time but also changes over a long time, development or
even evolution, biological evolution, in the Voynich anticipated by tubuli,
more accurate than the later globuli proposed by Darwin. Alchemy would then
not only have paved the way for chemistry, but also for the idea of evolution,
biological evolution. Tell me of someone who anticipated biological evolution
earlier than 1600.
Franz Gnaedinger
Jul 11, 2018, 2:38:08 AM7/11/18
to
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 2:10:08 PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> How could you know such a thing?
The language of the San is full of clicks. And this makes sense for early
>
> How could you know such a thing?
hunters, because clicks allow communications among them without disturbing
their potential prey. Animals ignore clicks, while they are very sensible
for voices.
> Even if the Phaistos Disk represents a language in writing, it is
> extremely unlikely that its large number of symbols are letters of
> an alphabet.
(I tell you so since fifteen years - in vain, in vainer, in vainestly).
The peculiar alphabet contains in all 46 letters, among them six different
alphas. Ohlenroth explains them phonetically, via various dialects, while
I propose a double function of those peculiar letters: allowing to represent
Elaia's grove at Phigalia and Middle Helladic Tiryns in the time around
1650 BC both in word and picture.
> Even if "red ocher dots" somehow represent language, there is no
> justification whatsoever for connecting "red ocher dots" with any
> particular sound.
form a domino five with an additional dot in elevated position, big dots
applied with a palm. One Holly identified the domino five with my PAS
for everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west
of me, while I added CA for sky as meaning of the elevated palm impression,
together PAS CA, may the supreme leader who roamed the land in this life
roam the heavens in his next life, may he get everywhere PAS in the sky CA
- PAS CA Russian Paskha Italian Pasqua French Pâques ... There is a large
panel of red ocher dots in the cave, and in a vertical stripe there is
a red ocher butterfly starting in upward direction. A red ocher dot on
a cave wall is reading SAI CA, imploring a next life SAI in the heavenly
beyond CA for a worthy soul
SAI CA pSAI CA psychae 'soul'
Now Greek psychae also means butterfly, the ancient idea having been that
a soul in a dying human being leaves the body in form of a butterfly ...
Also this idea might go back a very long time.
Whenever you drop your condescending "fantasy" you deliberately ignore
my half a century of studying cave art and visual language.
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 11, 2018, 2:45:04 AM7/11/18
to
Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:10:11 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
Imagination and phantasy are synonyms in this context.
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
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