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Arrangement has 2 R's but Derangement has 1 R ---- because...
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henh...@gmail.com
Oct 12, 2022, 5:23:03 PM10/12/22
to
Arrangement has 2 R's
but
Derangement has 1 R ---- because
[Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/derangement
i was noticing how even the most Deranged ppl would have lots of Correct Thoughts.... that it'd be very difficult to have all incorrect thoughts.
( [derangement] as a term in Math, Combinatorics )
What (else) is an example of interesting discrepancy (or diff.) between a Word's ordinary and specialized meanings ?
but
Derangement has 1 R ---- because
[Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/derangement
i was noticing how even the most Deranged ppl would have lots of Correct Thoughts.... that it'd be very difficult to have all incorrect thoughts.
( [derangement] as a term in Math, Combinatorics )
What (else) is an example of interesting discrepancy (or diff.) between a Word's ordinary and specialized meanings ?
Ruud Harmsen
Oct 13, 2022, 4:01:02 AM10/13/22
to
Wed, 12 Oct 2022 14:23:01 -0700 (PDT): "henh...@gmail.com"
<henh...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>Arrangement has 2 R's
> but
>Derangement has 1 R ---- because
> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
Latin ad-.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
<henh...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>Arrangement has 2 R's
> but
>Derangement has 1 R ---- because
> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
wugi
Oct 13, 2022, 5:46:09 AM10/13/22
to
Op 13/10/2022 om 10:00 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
Arrogate, derogate
Apposition, depose
append, depend
oppress [< ob-], depress
oppose, depose
etc...
--
guido wugi
> Wed, 12 Oct 2022 14:23:01 -0700 (PDT): "henh...@gmail.com"
> <henh...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
>> Arrangement has 2 R's
>> but
>> Derangement has 1 R ---- because
>> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
>
> Latin ad-.
>
Arrive, derive
> <henh...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
>> Arrangement has 2 R's
>> but
>> Derangement has 1 R ---- because
>> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
>
> Latin ad-.
>
Arrogate, derogate
Apposition, depose
append, depend
oppress [< ob-], depress
oppose, depose
etc...
--
guido wugi
Christian Weisgerber
Oct 13, 2022, 9:30:06 AM10/13/22
to
On 2022-10-12, henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arrangement has 2 R's
> but
> Derangement has 1 R ---- because
> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
Some Latin prefixes assimilate to a following consonant. A good
> Arrangement has 2 R's
> but
> Derangement has 1 R ---- because
> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
example is con-, which turns into com- (combine), col- (collaborate)
or cor- (correct).
The Latin prefix ad- also undergoes assimilation. Now, "arrangement"
isn't Latin, it's French. And Latin ad- had already become a- in
French. But French orthography sometimes imitates Latin and so you
have "arranger" or "alléger" as if an ad- had been assimilated.
The double letter does not affect pronunciation, since French doesn't
have geminate consonants.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Oct 13, 2022, 11:18:06 AM10/13/22
to
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
henh...@gmail.com
Oct 13, 2022, 7:25:25 PM10/13/22
to
so it seems... Other words could've obtained the Double-Consonants (by assimilation)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/adsorb ----> Assorb
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/adroit (?) -----> Arroit
apprehend -------- already has PP
henh...@gmail.com
Oct 13, 2022, 7:32:21 PM10/13/22
to
While shooting the film [Gosford Park]
a certain scene required several takes
because
(Dame) Kristin Scott Thomas
kept pronouncing the word [Condolences] in the French way.
________________
There is no animal rights tag in the closing credits of this movie. The shooting scene was filmed with real birds, and they were shot.
________________
In the DVD commentary, producer and director Robert Altman stated he included the "f" word several times on purpose to get an R-rating because he didn't want kids to see this movie. He thought kids wouldn't like the movie, so he wanted to keep them out (especially fourteen-year-old boys).
Daud Deden
Oct 14, 2022, 7:12:24 AM10/14/22
to
wugi
Oct 14, 2022, 12:41:09 PM10/14/22
to
Op 14/10/2022 om 1:25 schreef henh...@gmail.com:
This one not, as it is not < *~ ad rectum but < ~ ad directum.
Or it should be a second phase assimiliation.
> apprehend -------- already has PP
BTW L. prehendere has a nice false etymology as *~ for-hand; the right
etymo being ~ for-get. (with nasalised stem in L.)
--
guido wugi
> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 2:46:09 AM UTC-7, wugi wrote:
>> Op 13/10/2022 om 10:00 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>> Wed, 12 Oct 2022 14:23:01 -0700 (PDT): "henh...@gmail.com"
>>> <henh...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Arrangement has 2 R's
>>>> but
>>>> Derangement has 1 R ---- because
>>>> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
>>>
>
>>> Latin ad-.
>>>
>
>> Arrive, derive
>> Arrogate, derogate
>>
>> Apposition, depose
>> append, depend
>>
>> oppress [< ob-], depress
>> oppose, depose
>>
>> etc...
>>
>
>
> thank you (all) ! ...
>
> so it seems... Other words could've obtained the Double-Consonants (by assimilation)
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/adsorb ----> Assorb
Like Italian
>> Op 13/10/2022 om 10:00 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>> Wed, 12 Oct 2022 14:23:01 -0700 (PDT): "henh...@gmail.com"
>>> <henh...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Arrangement has 2 R's
>>>> but
>>>> Derangement has 1 R ---- because
>>>> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
>>>
>
>>> Latin ad-.
>>>
>
>> Arrive, derive
>> Arrogate, derogate
>>
>> Apposition, depose
>> append, depend
>>
>> oppress [< ob-], depress
>> oppose, depose
>>
>> etc...
>>
>
>
> thank you (all) ! ...
>
> so it seems... Other words could've obtained the Double-Consonants (by assimilation)
>
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/adsorb ----> Assorb
This one not, as it is not < *~ ad rectum but < ~ ad directum.
Or it should be a second phase assimiliation.
> apprehend -------- already has PP
etymo being ~ for-get. (with nasalised stem in L.)
--
guido wugi
Dingbat
Oct 17, 2022, 7:05:15 AM10/17/22
to
On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 6:30:06 AM UTC-7, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> On 2022-10-12, henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Arrangement has 2 R's
> > but
> > Derangement has 1 R ---- because
> > [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
> Some Latin prefixes assimilate to a following consonant. A good
> example is con-, which turns into com- (combine), col- (collaborate)
> or cor- (correct).
>
> The Latin prefix ad- also undergoes assimilation. Now, "arrangement"
> isn't Latin, it's French. And Latin ad- had already become a- in
> French. But French orthography sometimes imitates Latin and so you
> have "arranger" or "alléger" as if an ad- had been assimilated.
>
If it were not assimilated, would it be adranger?
> On 2022-10-12, henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Arrangement has 2 R's
> > but
> > Derangement has 1 R ---- because
> > [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
> Some Latin prefixes assimilate to a following consonant. A good
> example is con-, which turns into com- (combine), col- (collaborate)
> or cor- (correct).
>
> The Latin prefix ad- also undergoes assimilation. Now, "arrangement"
> isn't Latin, it's French. And Latin ad- had already become a- in
> French. But French orthography sometimes imitates Latin and so you
> have "arranger" or "alléger" as if an ad- had been assimilated.
>
>
> The double letter does not affect pronunciation, since French doesn't
> have geminate consonants.
>
Why does derrière have 1 double r and 1 single r?
> The double letter does not affect pronunciation, since French doesn't
> have geminate consonants.
>
Christian Weisgerber
Oct 17, 2022, 9:30:06 AM10/17/22
to
On 2022-10-17, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> The Latin prefix ad- also undergoes assimilation. Now, "arrangement"
>> isn't Latin, it's French. And Latin ad- had already become a- in
>> French. But French orthography sometimes imitates Latin and so you
>> have "arranger" or "alléger" as if an ad- had been assimilated.
>>
> If it were not assimilated, would it be adranger?
Yes.
>> The Latin prefix ad- also undergoes assimilation. Now, "arrangement"
>> isn't Latin, it's French. And Latin ad- had already become a- in
>> French. But French orthography sometimes imitates Latin and so you
>> have "arranger" or "alléger" as if an ad- had been assimilated.
>>
> If it were not assimilated, would it be adranger?
>> The double letter does not affect pronunciation, since French doesn't
>> have geminate consonants.
>>
> Why does derrière have 1 double r and 1 single r?
It may be by analogy with "arrière", which in turn derives from
VLat *ad retro.
Actually, TLFi says the -rr- is by analogy with Old French
derrain < VLat *deretranus.
wugi
Oct 17, 2022, 9:38:56 AM10/17/22
to
Op 17/10/2022 om 13:05 schreef Dingbat:
Arranger is attested in xii century, says my Larousse.
There is araser < raser. But could be from ?ab-raser as well.
And also with other consonnants, without assimilation:
amener < mener,
avenir < venir (!E. adventure is a latinisation:
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=adventure : "The -d- was restored in
English 15c.-16c.; in French the attempt to restore it at about the same
time was rejected.")
aparté < à part
apercevoir < percevoir
aliter < lit
etc....
>> The double letter does not affect pronunciation, since French doesn't
>> have geminate consonants.
>>
> Why does derrière have 1 double r and 1 single r?
It was deriere in 1080, says my Larousse: "refait sur derrain (v.
dernier)". And < pop. L. de-retro.
dernier : < o.F. derrain < pop.L. deretranus < deretro.
arrière: pop.L. *adretro.
So, direct Latin heritage here.
--
guido wugi
> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 6:30:06 AM UTC-7, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>> On 2022-10-12, henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Arrangement has 2 R's
>>> but
>>> Derangement has 1 R ---- because
>>> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
>> Some Latin prefixes assimilate to a following consonant. A good
>> example is con-, which turns into com- (combine), col- (collaborate)
>> or cor- (correct).
>>
>> The Latin prefix ad- also undergoes assimilation. Now, "arrangement"
>> isn't Latin, it's French. And Latin ad- had already become a- in
>> French. But French orthography sometimes imitates Latin and so you
>> have "arranger" or "alléger" as if an ad- had been assimilated.
>>
> If it were not assimilated, would it be adranger?
If French already had a,à for ad, then there is no assimilation here.
>> On 2022-10-12, henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Arrangement has 2 R's
>>> but
>>> Derangement has 1 R ---- because
>>> [Arrangement] came to English from Old-French much earlier ?
>> Some Latin prefixes assimilate to a following consonant. A good
>> example is con-, which turns into com- (combine), col- (collaborate)
>> or cor- (correct).
>>
>> The Latin prefix ad- also undergoes assimilation. Now, "arrangement"
>> isn't Latin, it's French. And Latin ad- had already become a- in
>> French. But French orthography sometimes imitates Latin and so you
>> have "arranger" or "alléger" as if an ad- had been assimilated.
>>
> If it were not assimilated, would it be adranger?
Arranger is attested in xii century, says my Larousse.
There is araser < raser. But could be from ?ab-raser as well.
And also with other consonnants, without assimilation:
amener < mener,
avenir < venir (!E. adventure is a latinisation:
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=adventure : "The -d- was restored in
English 15c.-16c.; in French the attempt to restore it at about the same
time was rejected.")
aparté < à part
apercevoir < percevoir
aliter < lit
etc....
>> The double letter does not affect pronunciation, since French doesn't
>> have geminate consonants.
>>
> Why does derrière have 1 double r and 1 single r?
dernier)". And < pop. L. de-retro.
dernier : < o.F. derrain < pop.L. deretranus < deretro.
arrière: pop.L. *adretro.
So, direct Latin heritage here.
--
guido wugi
Christian Weisgerber
Oct 17, 2022, 10:30:07 AM10/17/22
to
On 2022-10-13, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> The double letter does not affect pronunciation, since French doesn't
>> have geminate consonants.
>
> Not usually, but I had a colleague who always pronounced collègue as col lègue.
That's a hypercorrection.
>> The double letter does not affect pronunciation, since French doesn't
>> have geminate consonants.
>
> Not usually, but I had a colleague who always pronounced collègue as col lègue.
There are a very few verb forms where /ʁʁ/ constrasts with /ʁ/, at
least in normative pronunciation, as in
je courais /kuʁɛ/ (imperfect)
je courrais /kuʁʁɛ/ (conditional)
This only happens where two tense stems would be otherwise
indistinguishable. E.g. pourrais /puʁɛ/ does not double the /ʁ/,
because the verb has no contrasting *pour- stem (it's pouv-).
One way to analyze this, e.g. on French Wiktionary, is to assign
the ʁ's to different syllables: /kuʁ.ʁɛ/.
I think the only verbs affected are courir, quérir, mourir and their
derivatives.
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