Real Linguists on the Big Screen!
benl...@ihug.co.nz
Peter T. Daniels
> http://www.thelinguists.com/
>
> Check out the trailer -- looks a bit like "The Amazing Race".
The New York premiere is at BAM on June 2.
Greg Anderson is a friend of mine. I don't know who Dave is.
Franz Gnaedinger
Poor Greg Anderson. You often use harsh words for the
work of friend of yours, so being a friend of yours is
rather dangerous ... Sorry, couldn't help making this
comment. By the way, did you see the quote from a
letter Richard P. Feynman wrote on November 30, 1965,
the year he won his Nobel Prize? Meanwhile I commited
it to my memory and use any opportunity to recite it,
as it is so wonderful: "... study hard what interests you
the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original
manner possible."
bulkington63
Your only reason for posting today is to throw 'invectives' at Peter?
How mature. Troll.
pika
linguists are sexy, I can't wait to watch it
Nathan Sanders
<e8de7968-866b-430b...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Dave would be K. David Harrison. He's at Swarthmore, a fellow
phonologist about my age (he got his PhD a few years before me, around
2000 or so). He's an incredibly productive researcher and works a lot
on Turkic languages. He's really big into issues of language
documentation and extinction, hence his involvement in this film.
Nathan
--
Nathan Sanders
Linguistics Program
Williams College
http://wso.williams.edu/~nsanders/
Peter T. Daniels
> In article
> <e8de7968-866b-430b-a5e6-4ce09fde8...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On May 3, 3:26 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > >http://www.thelinguists.com/
>
> > > Check out the trailer -- looks a bit like "The Amazing Race".
>
> > The New York premiere is at BAM on June 2.
>
> > Greg Anderson is a friend of mine. I don't know who Dave is.
>
> Dave would be K. David Harrison. He's at Swarthmore, a fellow
> phonologist about my age (he got his PhD a few years before me, around
> 2000 or so). He's an incredibly productive researcher and works a lot
> on Turkic languages. He's really big into issues of language
> documentation and extinction, hence his involvement in this film.
2000 years is more than a few!
Heidi Graw
>"Nathan Sanders" <nsan...@williams.edu> wrote in message
>news:nsanders-7DC5A0...@cpc3-rdng14-0-0-cust319.winn.cable.ntl.com...
(snip)
> Dave would be K. David Harrison. He's at Swarthmore, a fellow
> phonologist about my age (he got his PhD a few years before me, around
> 2000 or so). He's an incredibly productive researcher and works a lot
> on Turkic languages. He's really big into issues of language
> documentation and extinction, hence his involvement in this film.
>
> Nathan
Nathan, when linguists document a language that is at risk
of extinction, do they take someone along who could
document a people's stories? If a language goes extinct,
so do the stories. I think if the recording of both can be done
at the same time, it would be far more valuable than just
recording the words. When the accompanying stories
there would at least be a context to go along with those words,
plus we'd get an insight into those people's thinking.
Heidi
benl...@ihug.co.nz
So what's supposed to happen if you do that? You win a Nobel Prize?
Ross Clark
Nathan Sanders
<bf647797-44ca-4a47...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
For us immortals, 2000 years is nothing.
Peter T. Daniels
> >"Nathan Sanders" <nsand...@williams.edu> wrote in message
Dear Heidi, _please_ take a moment to _think_ before typing. What does
"documenting a language" mean, if not recording texts? Have you never
even looked at a linguistics bibliography?
Heidi Graw
>"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:2fd54781-899d-450a...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On May 3, 2:58 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
> >"Nathan Sanders" <nsand...@williams.edu> wrote in message
> >news:nsanders-7DC5A0...@cpc3-rdng14-0-0-cust319.winn.cable.ntl.com...
>
> (snip)
>
>> > Dave would be K. David Harrison. He's at Swarthmore, a fellow
>> > phonologist about my age (he got his PhD a few years before me, around
>> > 2000 or so). He's an incredibly productive researcher and works a lot
>> > on Turkic languages. He's really big into issues of language
>> > documentation and extinction, hence his involvement in this film.
>
>> > Nathan
>>Heidi wrote:
>> Nathan, when linguists document a language that is at risk
>> of extinction, do they take someone along who could
>> document a people's stories? If a language goes extinct,
>> so do the stories. I think if the recording of both can be done
>> at the same time, it would be far more valuable than just
>> recording the words. When the accompanying stories
>> there would at least be a context to go along with those words,
>> plus we'd get an insight into those people's thinking.
>Peter wrote:
>Dear Heidi, _please_ take a moment to _think_ before typing. What does
>"documenting a language" mean, if not recording texts? Have you never
>even looked at a linguistics bibliography?
There's a difference between recording a story and merely recording
text. Take a minute or two to figure it out.
Heidi
Franz Gnaedinger
Feynman said he wouldn't have needed a Nobel Prize.
Finding things out was enough for him, and the fact
that his diagrams are used by all the other quantum
physicists. This, he said, was his true reward.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Dear Heidi, _please_ take a moment to _think_ before typing. What does
> "documenting a language" mean, if not recording texts? Have you never
> even looked at a linguistics bibliography?
Heidi, if I may interpret her, and I think I may in the lovely
month of May, wishes for a record of the culture and
the ways of feeling and thinking as kept in the memory
of a language, and not just for a couple of texts that only
keep a record of the language on the verge of extinction.
Paul J Kriha
I am puzzled. Did Heidi take a moment or did she not?
pjk
benl...@ihug.co.nz
> >"Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in message
OK, I give up. Can you explain it?
I think what Peter was trying to say, in his snappish way, was that
yes, linguists do record stories. Unless extremely short of time,
linguists will always want to go beyond "just recording the words".
Getting people to tell stories is a good way of hearing how the
language goes together and does its actual job, even if the content of
the stories is not of primary interest. If, however, you were
concerned to get every possible story, or to explore deeply the
significance of the stories in the culture, you might want to send
along an anthropologist.
Now will you tell us the difference?
Ross Clark
benl...@ihug.co.nz
OK, so (1) you get some satisfaction from finding things out; and (2)
you get even more reward if others find your work valuable. I can see
that you've achieved (1), but I'm not so sure about (2).
Ross Clark
Peter T. Daniels
I'm afraid it's too late for Heidi to do that, as she is already
(chronologically, anyway) a grown woman, and what you are asking
requires a lifetime of involvement.
If the sole surviving speaker of a language is 90 years old and
toothless, how successful will such an enterprise be?
Heidi Graw
>"Franz Gnaedinger" <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
>news:d4d6b8c4-6d44-46f1...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>On May 4, 6:27 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Dear Heidi, _please_ take a moment to _think_ before typing. What does
>> "documenting a language" mean, if not recording texts? Have you never
>> even looked at a linguistics bibliography?
>Franz wrote:
>Heidi, if I may interpret her, and I think I may in the lovely
>month of May, wishes for a record of the culture and
>the ways of feeling and thinking as kept in the memory
>of a language, and not just for a couple of texts that only
>keep a record of the language on the verge of extinction.
Exactly! You've correctly interpreted what I meant to
say.
Ross Clark wrote the following:
"Getting people to tell stories is a good way of hearing how the
language goes together and does its actual job, even if the content of
the stories is not of primary interest. If, however, you were
concerned to get every possible story, or to explore deeply the
significance of the stories in the culture, you might want to send
along an anthropologist. Now will you tell us the difference?"
I'm thinking of a more interdisciplinary investigation when
it comes to preserving a people's near extinct language.
Perhaps a team made up of a linguist, an anthropologist,
a historian, and people skilled in literature, music and arts.
A team which can investigate in a more integrated way
this near-extinct language of a people. Btw, this may
even be a language which has no written records, so
there would be no texts to document, but oral tales
only.
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>Peter wrote:
>If the sole surviving speaker of a language is 90 years old and
>toothless, how successful will such an enterprise be?
That 90-year old, provided he/she hasn't got alzheimer's or
old age dementia, could be a wealth of information. Such a
one might be a "keeper of the lore, traditions, and customs."
The more you engage him/her in talk, the more words for
your extinct language dictionary you could get, plus information
how that language was used, what stories were told, and in
what manner did those people communicate their ideas, their
hopes and dreams, their beliefs, their concerns? To know
the language, you have to know the people and their stories.
So, I would think any study into near-extinct languages would
involve a multi-disciplinary team to do this investigation.
Heidi
Peter T. Daniels
Dream on, Heidi.
Who's going to pay for it?
How many nonagenarians have you tried to converse with for 6 to 8
hours a day -- in a language they have had no one to speak to in for,
in some cases, decades?
READ A BOOK about anthropological linguistics and fieldwork.
Go see the movie.
Peter T. Daniels
> >"Franz Gnaedinger" <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
Obviously there are no written records!!! A tiny minority of the
world's 6000 or so extant languages has ever had writing.
(Incidentally, by definition "texts" are already "documented." When
Murray Emeneau spent several years collecting "Toda texts" in India,
he was not photographing manuscripts. He was transcribing tales.)
So you're going to come up with salaries for at least six individuals
for each of, say, 3000 languages, to spend years learning a culture?
Are you also going to pay for the training of these 18,000
individuals?
Are you going to recruit them to spend decades away from their own
culture to do this?
Heidi Graw
>"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:f6802944-4b1f-419b...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...(snip)
>Peter wrote:
>So you're going to come up with salaries for at least six individuals
>for each of, say, 3000 languages, to spend years learning a culture?
>Are you also going to pay for the training of these 18,000
>individuals?
>Are you going to recruit them to spend decades away from their own
>culture to do this?
...and why are you assuming that only you and your ilk are
the only competent ones to preserve another people's culture?
There is such a thing as training others to perserve and care
for their own. Or, is this too radical an idea for you?
Heidi
Brian M. Scott
<hg...@telus.net> wrote in <news:XYlTj.476$KB3.274@edtnps91>
in sci.lang:
>>"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>news:f6802944-4b1f-419b...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>On May 4, 10:09 am, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
You still haven't learned how to quote properly, I see.
> (snip)
>>Peter wrote:
>>So you're going to come up with salaries for at least six individuals
>>for each of, say, 3000 languages, to spend years learning a culture?
>>Are you also going to pay for the training of these 18,000
>>individuals?
>>Are you going to recruit them to spend decades away from their own
>>culture to do this?
> ...and why are you assuming that only you and your ilk are
> the only competent ones to preserve another people's culture?
> There is such a thing as training others to perserve and care
> for their own. Or, is this too radical an idea for you?
Now you're just being dishonest. Peter was responding to
this from you:
Craoi...@gmail.com
> >"Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in message
I can guarantee you that Peter and his "ilk" are much more competent
at preserving those cultures than you. If you weren't so damned
unsubtle, you might actually get Peter's drift - that we all would be
very happy if there were multidisciplinary teams available to preserve
or at least to record for the posterity every little backwoods dialect
there is, but that there is no money, and that it takes a particular
kind of person to spend his or her life among natives.
As regards "training others to preserve and care for their own", the
fact is that typically the speakers of a small language with a dozen
native speakers usually do lament the passing of the old tongue, but
in a globalizing economy young people want jobs and a better life, and
for many of them sticking to their language and their native culture
would entail living in a mud hut, while learning a metropolitan
language will entail moving into a place with central heating and
clean drinking water. Who are you to tell them that they have to stick
to the mud hut? You might find the mud hut picturesque, but you don't
need to live in it all the time. You have a place with central heating
and clean drinking water to go home to, so you can afford to wax
sentimental about the passing of an old culture.
All this may sound a little misplaced in my mouth, as I have
practically given up an academic career in order to dedicate my life
to the revival of the Irish language, but these are the questions and
dilemmas everybody in this language revival business needs to grapple
with, and they are not easy questions to answer. If you weren't so
goddamn stupid and monstrously unable to empathize with other people,
you would understand that it is not as easy as you imagine it to be.
You can be sure that your "radical" ideas aren't new to anyone
involved in the language revitalization business.
If you weren't so lazy and stupid, I would recommend you to acquire a
moribund language just in order to get a realistic idea of the issues
involved. However, I don't think you would be able to do it anyway.
You are either too stupid, or then you are affected by some
developmental or neurological disorder which makes you unable to pay
proper attention (your Usenet writings do suggest the possibility of
attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder).
As regards your great idea of recording stories, the fact is that
although there are still novels and short stories being written by
native speakers, the great majority of the literature available in
Irish consists precisely of what you call "stories of the people",
i.e. stories and folklore, as well as autobiographies by the last
monolingual native speakers. Anybody who is serious about acquiring
native-like Irish will delve deep into this kind of literature. The
greater part of my own private Irish-language library consists of
folklore and Gaeltacht autobiographies.
Peter T. Daniels
> >"Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in message
So you want to take 6 individuals who speak each undocumented language
and remove them from their culture for the 15 or so years it will take
to train them in the 6 disciplines you want them to study so they can
report on their culture?
You still have to train 18,000 people, and now you need to find a way
to do it in 3,000 unknown languages. (Most of which, incidentally, do
not have any native speakers younger than 50 or 60, so where exactly
are you getting this pool of trainees?)
Heidi Graw
><Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4b4ff0f7-6828-41ee...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
> Crybaby wrote:
> I can guarantee you that Peter and his "ilk" are much more competent
> at preserving those cultures than you.
I think the best preservers of a culture are those who are living it.
>If you weren't so damned
> unsubtle, you might actually get Peter's drift - that we all would be
> very happy if there were multidisciplinary teams available to preserve
> or at least to record for the posterity every little backwoods dialect
> there is, but that there is no money, and that it takes a particular
> kind of person to spend his or her life among natives.
What's wrong with letting the natives preserve their own? Who made
you their caretaker?
> Crybaby wrote:
> As regards "training others to preserve and care for their own", the
> fact is that typically the speakers of a small language with a dozen
> native speakers usually do lament the passing of the old tongue,
Yes, they do.
>but
> in a globalizing economy young people want jobs and a better life,
Yes, and you can't blame them for that.
>and
> for many of them sticking to their language and their native culture
> would entail living in a mud hut,
I'm not saying they have to use it and practise it. With today's
technology it's enough to record, save and store the information
for posterity's sake.
(snip)
> If you weren't so lazy and stupid, I would recommend you to acquire a
> moribund language just in order to get a realistic idea of the issues
> involved.
I know what is involved. I'm actually in the middle of studying a dead
language. A few scraps of information from my dead language has
managed to make it into the archives and has been sitting there inert for
800 and more years. I'm currently busy translating that dead and unused
stuff into a living language. It might get used again, or it might not.
But, at least a version using a living language will exist.
Heidi
Peter T. Daniels
> ><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:4b4ff0f7-6828-41ee...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> (snip)
>
> > Crybaby wrote:
> > I can guarantee you that Peter and his "ilk" are much more competent
> > at preserving those cultures than you.
>
> I think the best preservers of a culture are those who are living it.
Languages with one, two, or three elderly speakers represent no
culture at all. Those speakers have not actively used those languages
in many, many years.
> >If you weren't so damned
> > unsubtle, you might actually get Peter's drift - that we all would be
> > very happy if there were multidisciplinary teams available to preserve
> > or at least to record for the posterity every little backwoods dialect
> > there is, but that there is no money, and that it takes a particular
> > kind of person to spend his or her life among natives.
>
> What's wrong with letting the natives preserve their own? Who made
> you their caretaker?
There ARE NO "NATIVES" TO PRESERVE THEM.
> > Crybaby wrote:
> > As regards "training others to preserve and care for their own", the
> > fact is that typically the speakers of a small language with a dozen
> > native speakers usually do lament the passing of the old tongue,
>
> Yes, they do.
>
> >but
> > in a globalizing economy young people want jobs and a better life,
>
> Yes, and you can't blame them for that.
>
> >and
> > for many of them sticking to their language and their native culture
> > would entail living in a mud hut,
>
> I'm not saying they have to use it and practise it. With today's
> technology it's enough to record, save and store the information
> for posterity's sake.
Record it from whom?
> (snip)
>
> > If you weren't so lazy and stupid, I would recommend you to acquire a
> > moribund language just in order to get a realistic idea of the issues
> > involved.
>
> I know what is involved. I'm actually in the middle of studying a dead
> language. A few scraps of information from my dead language has
> managed to make it into the archives and has been sitting there inert for
> 800 and more years. I'm currently busy translating that dead and unused
> stuff into a living language. It might get used again, or it might not.
> But, at least a version using a living language will exist.
Your "dead" language, some early form of German, has been being
studied by thousands of people for hundreds of years. It is not
remotely comparable to salvage-linguistics.
John Atkinson
"Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:XYlTj.476$KB3.274@edtnps91...
Heidi:
I recommend you subscribe to the ILAT email forum
(IL...@listserv.arizona.edu). There you'll find that nothing that you're
saying is at all new (i.e., you're b.o.r.i.n.g!), and that most of it
makes excellent sense nevertheless.
BTW, many of correspondents there are in fact native speakers of
threatened languages, working to record and/or revitalise their
languages. And, of course, whinging about the lack of resources that
Peter mentions.
The governments of your country and mine spend a considerable amount of
their foreign aid and education budgets on teaching English to
foreigners and immigrants, many times more than what they spend on
preserving threatened languages at home or abroad. (At least, I'm pretty
sure that's the case -- I haven't seen any actual figures.) If I was in
charge, it'd be the other way round.
Anyway, I do suggest you make a token effort to find out what's actually
happening next time before you tell us what you think ought to be
happening. And, if you want to do something about it but can't afford
the time to spend working on one of these languages yourself, maybe you
could consider making a donation to the threatened language fund on
Linguist List.
John.
>
> Heidi
>
>
>
>
>
Craoi...@gmail.com
> ><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:4b4ff0f7-6828-41ee...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> (snip)
>
> > Crybaby wrote:
It is interesting that you make fun of my alias, an Irish word. It
does not suggest that you are that friendly towards endangered
languages as you suggest.
> > I can guarantee you that Peter and his "ilk" are much more competent
> > at preserving those cultures than you.
>
> I think the best preservers of a culture are those who are living it.
The problem is that those people might be so few and so old that they
cannot "preserve" anything anymore.
> >If you weren't so damned
> > unsubtle, you might actually get Peter's drift - that we all would be
> > very happy if there were multidisciplinary teams available to preserve
> > or at least to record for the posterity every little backwoods dialect
> > there is, but that there is no money, and that it takes a particular
> > kind of person to spend his or her life among natives.
>
> What's wrong with letting the natives preserve their own?
Nothing wrong. The problem is that there may be no natives left who
are younger than seventy. And if you count linguistically assimilated
"natives" - say, ethnic Manchu who don't speak Manchu anymore - they
are really not much more equipped to "preserve" anything than a
foreign linguist is.
Who made
> you their caretaker?
Personally, I made myself the caretaker of the Irish culture by
reading some ten thousand pages of Irish-language texts by natives,
and by approaching the natives and nicely and politely asking them, if
my Irish was worth a halfpenny.
>
> > Crybaby wrote:
> > As regards "training others to preserve and care for their own", the
> > fact is that typically the speakers of a small language with a dozen
> > native speakers usually do lament the passing of the old tongue,
>
> Yes, they do.
You don't need to tell it to me.
> >but
> > in a globalizing economy young people want jobs and a better life,
>
> Yes, and you can't blame them for that.
Nice that you at least admit that.
> >and
> > for many of them sticking to their language and their native culture
> > would entail living in a mud hut,
>
> I'm not saying they have to use it and practise it. With today's
> technology it's enough to record, save and store the information
> for posterity's sake.
Yes, and that is the very job of the "caretakers" - because there are
no natives left to live in the mud hut anymore. So, your suggestion
that natives should be trained to preserve their own doesn't even make
sense to yourself.
>
> > If you weren't so lazy and stupid, I would recommend you to acquire a
> > moribund language just in order to get a realistic idea of the issues
> > involved.
>
> I know what is involved. I'm actually in the middle of studying a dead
> language. A few scraps of information from my dead language has
> managed to make it into the archives and has been sitting there inert for
> 800 and more years. I'm currently busy translating that dead and unused
> stuff into a living language. It might get used again, or it might not.
> But, at least a version using a living language will exist.
You really didn't understand what I was talking about, did you? Well,
that' s no news.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote in message
>
> news:XYlTj.476$KB3.274@edtnps91...
>
>
>
>
>
> >>news:f6802944-4b1f-419b...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >>On May 4, 10:09 am, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
> > (snip)
>
> >>Peter wrote:
> >>So you're going to come up with salaries for at least six individuals
> >>for each of, say, 3000 languages, to spend years learning a culture?
>
> >>Are you also going to pay for the training of these 18,000
> >>individuals?
>
> >>Are you going to recruit them to spend decades away from their own
> >>culture to do this?
>
> > ...and why are you assuming that only you and your ilk are
> > the only competent ones to preserve another people's culture?
> > There is such a thing as training others to perserve and care
> > for their own. Or, is this too radical an idea for you?+
>
> Heidi:
>
> I recommend you subscribe to the ILAT email forum
> saying is at all new (i.e., you're b.o.r.i.n.g!), and that most of it
> makes excellent sense nevertheless.
The problem is, that Heidi is not interested in learning anything from
anybody - she'll be mouthing the same ignorant platitudes day in, day
out, and I think genuine language revivalists should not be distracted
with Heidi.
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
>
> Your "dead" language, some early form of German, has been being
> studied by thousands of people for hundreds of years. It is not
> remotely comparable to salvage-linguistics.
Neither is my Irish, actually. There exists such an extensive corpus
of recorded speech and texts in Irish, that the language could be
revived with all its dialect distinctions, if the last native speaker
disappeared. Few endangered languages have been so fortunate.
Harlan Messinger
>
>> <Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4b4ff0f7-6828-41ee...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> (snip)
>
>> Crybaby wrote:
>> I can guarantee you that Peter and his "ilk" are much more competent
>> at preserving those cultures than you.
>
> I think the best preservers of a culture are those who are living it.
>
>> If you weren't so damned
>> unsubtle, you might actually get Peter's drift - that we all would be
>> very happy if there were multidisciplinary teams available to preserve
>> or at least to record for the posterity every little backwoods dialect
>> there is, but that there is no money, and that it takes a particular
>> kind of person to spend his or her life among natives.
>
> What's wrong with letting the natives preserve their own? Who made
> you their caretaker?
What you're suggesting is like saying a family knows best how to extract
and prepare the organs of its deceased loved ones for transplantation
into an ailing recipient.
I believe you're confused as to the goal of all of this. This has
nothing to do with "letting" these peoples do anything. They need no
one's permission to do whatever they want for their *own* benefit.
What's being discussed here is an effort by researchers to create a
record of the language for the use of researchers. The researchers know
what they need. The speakers of the language don't; they don't even
necessarily know what "research" is or what "records" are. And linguists
are doing this because they *want* to. Even if it were better to get
these last remaining octogenarian speakers to do it for them, how do you
suggest their efforts would be solicited? By enslaving them? And how
would they be trained?
Heidi Graw
>"Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:688pqpF...@mid.individual.net...
>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>
>>> <Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4b4ff0f7-6828-41ee...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> (snip)
>>
>>> Crybaby wrote:
>>> I can guarantee you that Peter and his "ilk" are much more competent
>>> at preserving those cultures than you.
>> Heidi wrote:
>> I think the best preservers of a culture are those who are living it.
(snip)
> Harlan wrote:
> What you're suggesting is like saying a family knows best how to extract
> and prepare the organs of its deceased loved ones for transplantation into
> an ailing recipient.
Now you're just being testyrical.
> Harlan wrote:
> I believe you're confused as to the goal of all of this. This has nothing
> to do with "letting" these peoples do anything. They need no one's
> permission to do whatever they want for their *own* benefit. What's being
> discussed here is an effort by researchers to create a record of the
> language for the use of researchers. The researchers know what they need.
> The speakers of the language don't; they don't even necessarily know what
> "research" is or what "records" are. And linguists are doing this because
> they *want* to.
Well, it certainly beats working in a gravel pit. You don't have to worry
about breaking a fingernail or getting your nails dirty.
>Even if it were better to get these last remaining octogenarian speakers to
>do it for them, how do you suggest their efforts would be solicited? By
>enslaving them? And how would they be trained?
When was the last time you talked to an elderly person? I've found they
generally love to talk about themselves, their lives, what the know, etc.
If you let them, they'll yap to you for hours and hours on end.
I once spent some time listening to an elderly gentlemen suffering
from dementia. You'd be amazed at the bits and bytes you could
glean from this person's life. I wish I had a tape recorder with me
at the time. Oh well...next time when I have to visit someone
in the hospital.
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>"John Atkinson" <john...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>news:NJvTj.7712$ko5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
(snip)
>John wrote:
> The governments of your country and mine spend a considerable amount of
> their foreign aid and education budgets on teaching English to foreigners
> and immigrants, many times more than what they spend on preserving
> threatened languages at home or abroad. (At least, I'm pretty sure that's
> the case -- I haven't seen any actual figures.) If I was in charge, it'd
> be the other way round.
>
> Anyway, I do suggest you make a token effort to find out what's actually
> happening next time before you tell us what you think ought to be
> happening. And, if you want to do something about it but can't afford the
> time to spend working on one of these languages yourself, maybe you could
> consider making a donation to the threatened language fund on Linguist
> List.
Well, well, well...let's consider where I might want to spend my
education dollar.
Will it go to pay for a child to learn to read and write English...a
language used for global business, a language which will
allow that child to earn a livelihood?
Or, will it go to a grown up linguist who could be earning his
own money to support his own research for his special interest
in saving and/or reviving languages which very few in the world
have an interest in?
Where will I get the most bang for my buck? Well....the
answer should be obvious! I don't think I need to spell
it out, do I?
Heidi
Harlan Messinger
>
>> "Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger...@comcast.net> wrote in
>> message news:688pqpF...@mid.individual.net...
>>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>>
>>>> <Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4b4ff0f7-6828-41ee...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>> Crybaby wrote:
>>>> I can guarantee you that Peter and his "ilk" are much more competent
>>>> at preserving those cultures than you.
>
>>> Heidi wrote:
>>> I think the best preservers of a culture are those who are living it.
> (snip)
>
>> Harlan wrote:
>> What you're suggesting is like saying a family knows best how to
>> extract and prepare the organs of its deceased loved ones for
>> transplantation into an ailing recipient.
>
> Now you're just being testyrical.
Why? Your idea is equally absurd, and I wanted to illustrate that.
>> Harlan wrote:
>> I believe you're confused as to the goal of all of this. This has
>> nothing to do with "letting" these peoples do anything. They need no
>> one's permission to do whatever they want for their *own* benefit.
>> What's being discussed here is an effort by researchers to create a
>> record of the language for the use of researchers. The researchers
>> know what they need. The speakers of the language don't; they don't
>> even necessarily know what "research" is or what "records" are. And
>> linguists are doing this because they *want* to.
>
> Well, it certainly beats working in a gravel pit. You don't have to worry
> about breaking a fingernail or getting your nails dirty.
>
>> Even if it were better to get these last remaining octogenarian
>> speakers to do it for them, how do you suggest their efforts would be
>> solicited? By enslaving them? And how would they be trained?
>
> When was the last time you talked to an elderly person? I've found they
> generally love to talk about themselves, their lives, what the know, etc.
Uh, yeah, that's what the linguistic researchers rely on when they get
these people to talk to them so that the researchers can record their
speech. What does that have to do with having these speakers take over
the researchers' part of the work?
> If you let them, they'll yap to you for hours and hours on end.
>
> I once spent some time listening to an elderly gentlemen suffering
> from dementia. You'd be amazed at the bits and bytes you could
> glean from this person's life. I wish I had a tape recorder with me
> at the time. Oh well...next time when I have to visit someone
> in the hospital.
You seem to have completely forgotten what you were talking about and
what I was responding to. You are answering the question "how can we get
these few language holdouts to speak to researchers?" That is not the
question at issue--we already *know* that researchers *do* get these
speakers to talk with them.
Harlan Messinger
>> "John Atkinson" <john...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>> news:NJvTj.7712$ko5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Anyway, I do suggest you make a token effort to find out what's
>> actually happening next time before you tell us what you think ought
>> to be happening. And, if you want to do something about it but can't
>> afford the time to spend working on one of these languages yourself,
>> maybe you could consider making a donation to the threatened language
>> fund on Linguist List.
>
> Well, well, well...let's consider where I might want to spend my
> education dollar.
>
> Will it go to pay for a child to learn to read and write English...a
> language used for global business, a language which will
> allow that child to earn a livelihood?
>
> Or, will it go to a grown up linguist who could be earning his
> own money to support his own research for his special interest
> in saving and/or reviving languages which very few in the world
> have an interest in?
>
> Where will I get the most bang for my buck? Well....the
> answer should be obvious! I don't think I need to spell
> it out, do I?
This is really funny from someone who could be devoting the time she's
wasting puzzling out old Germanic texts that have long since been dealt
with by scholars in the field to aiding the same children about whom
she's expressing so much concern.
Heidi Graw
>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>> "John Atkinson" <john...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>>> news:NJvTj.7712$ko5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>>> Anyway, I do suggest you make a token effort to find out what's actually
>>> happening next time before you tell us what you think ought to be
>>> happening. And, if you want to do something about it but can't afford
>>> the time to spend working on one of these languages yourself, maybe you
>>> could consider making a donation to the threatened language fund on
>>> Linguist List.
>> Heidi wrote:
>> Well, well, well...let's consider where I might want to spend my
>> education dollar.
>>
>> Will it go to pay for a child to learn to read and write English...a
>> language used for global business, a language which will
>> allow that child to earn a livelihood?
>>
>> Or, will it go to a grown up linguist who could be earning his
>> own money to support his own research for his special interest
>> in saving and/or reviving languages which very few in the world
>> have an interest in?
>>
>> Where will I get the most bang for my buck? Well....the
>> answer should be obvious! I don't think I need to spell
>> it out, do I?
>Harlan wrote: This is really funny from someone who could be devoting the
>time she's wasting puzzling out old Germanic texts that have long since
>been dealt with by scholars in the field to aiding the same children about
>whom she's expressing so much concern.
The time I spend on my own research and study is not costing anyone
anything. As for what scholars have dealt with, that's not what I'm into.
I'm taking what had *not* been dealt with, but what is of interest to me.
and I'm doing that without begging for financial support. I don't even care
if what I'm doing goes beyond me to extend to others, although a few
others are interested and are patiently waiting for me to get this work
done.
Heidi
Harlan Messinger
You spelled out your reaction to John's proposal regarding your use of
spare money in terms of the "obvious" higher priority that aiding
children represents. If that is an absolute, then your choice to devote
yourself to linguistic study IS costing: it's costing children your
time. If assisting children were an absolute and overriding concern,
then it would be reasonable to wonder why you don't apply that concern
to whatever resource you have available, both monetary and otherwise:
time, clothing, shelter, knowledge. You don't, which illustrates that,
however much of yourself you devote to good causes, you're also content
to devote resources to your own pursuits and to goals that please you.
Therefore, your concern about helping children is not, after all, an
"obvious" bar to your also supporting linguistic study if you were so
inclined.
Heidi Graw
> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>
>>> "Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:68937hF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>>>> "John Atkinson" <john...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:NJvTj.7712$ko5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>> Anyway, I do suggest you make a token effort to find out what's
>>>>> actually happening next time before you tell us what you think ought
>>>>> to be happening. And, if you want to do something about it but can't
>>>>> afford the time to spend working on one of these languages yourself,
>>>>> maybe you could consider making a donation to the threatened language
>>>>> fund on Linguist List.
>>
>>>> Heidi wrote:
>>>> Well, well, well...let's consider where I might want to spend my
>>>> education dollar.
>>>>
>>>> Will it go to pay for a child to learn to read and write English...a
>>>> language used for global business, a language which will
>>>> allow that child to earn a livelihood?
>>>>
>>>> Or, will it go to a grown up linguist who could be earning his
>>>> own money to support his own research for his special interest
>>>> in saving and/or reviving languages which very few in the world
>>>> have an interest in?
>>>>
>>>> Where will I get the most bang for my buck? Well....the
>>>> answer should be obvious! I don't think I need to spell
>>>> it out, do I?
>>
>>> Harlan wrote: This is really funny from someone who could be devoting
>>> the time she's wasting puzzling out old Germanic texts that have long
>>> since been dealt with by scholars in the field to aiding the same
>>> children about whom she's expressing so much concern.
>>Heidi wrote: The time I spend on my own research and study is not costing
>>anyone
>> anything.
> Harlan wrote:
> You spelled out your reaction to John's proposal regarding your use of
> spare money in terms of the "obvious" higher priority that aiding children
> represents.
We are speaking about "spare" money. John asked me to
consider making a donation to the "threatened language" fund.
Well...I'm looking at my spare change. There are two things
that I consistently and regularly spend my spare change on...
1. Feeding a hungry person. 2. Educating a child.
>If that is an absolute, then your choice to devote yourself to linguistic
>study IS costing: it's costing children your time.
Yes, I'm an extremely selfish person. I look after my own comforts
and interests first. Then, whatever is left over, I spend on the
hungry and uneducated. I don't even spend any of my spare
change on the sick and the ailing. So, yes, Harlan, I'm a heartless
bitch. I'm quite prepared to allow a sick person to die
of his/her disease. And what about you, Harlan?
What are your priorities?
>If assisting children were an absolute and overriding concern,
It isn't. It's not for you or for me. What we were, however, talking
about is how we would spend our spare change. When I look
at my dollars that I have to give away....that linguist isn't even
on the list of potential recepients. However, if there's a starving
linguist hanging out in the alley way, I may give him money to buy
himself a warm meal. ;-)
Take care,
Heidi
Peter T. Daniels
> >"Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:68987eF...@mid.individual.net...
> > Heidi Graw wrote:
>
> >>>news:68937hF...@mid.individual.net...
> >>>> Heidi Graw wrote:
Heidi might find instructive this ToC, just announced on LINGUIST
List. It looks as though it's available for free download.
Title: Documenting and Revitalizing Austronesian Languages
Series Title: Language Documentation & Conservation Special
Publication No. 1
Publication Year: 2007
Publisher: University of Hawai?i Press
http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu
Book URL: http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp01/
Editor: D. Victoria Rau
Editor: Margaret Florey
Electronic: ISBN: 9780824833091 Pages: 245 Price: ---- Comment: open
access
Abstract:
Table of Contents
Chapter 1. Introduction: Documenting and revitalizing Austronesian
languages
Margaret Florey
Part I. International Capacity Building Initiatives
Chapter 2. The language documentation and conservation initiative at
the
University of Hawai'i at M?noa
Kenneth L. Rehg
Chapter 3. Training for language documentation: Experiences at the
School
of Oriental and African Studies
Peter K. Austin
Chapter 4. SIL International and endangered Austronesian languages
J. Stephen Quakenbush
Part II. Documentation and Revitalization Activities
Chapter 5. Local autonomy, local capacity building and support for
minority
languages: Field experiences from Indonesia
I Wayan Arka
Chapter 6. Documenting and revitalizing Kavalan
Fuhui Hsieh and Shuanfan Huang
Chapter 7. E-learning in endangered language documentation and
revitalization
D. Victoria Rau and Meng-Chien Yang
Chapter 8. Indigenous language-informed participatory policy in
Taiwan: A
socio-political perspective
Yih-Ren Lin, Lahwy Icyeh, and Da-Wei Kuan (Daya)
Chapter 9. Teaching and learning an endangered Austronesian language
in Taiwan
D. Victoria Rau, Hui-Huan Chang, Yin-Sheng Tai, Zhen-Yi Yang, Yi-Hui
Lin,
Chia-Chi Yang, and Maa-Neu Dong
Part III. Computational Methods and Tools for Language Documentation
Chapter 10. WeSay, a tool for engaging communities in dictionary
building
Eric Albright and John Hatton
Chapter 11. On designing the Formosan multimedia word dictionaries by
a
participatory process
Meng-Chien Yang, Hsin-Ta Chou, Huey-Shiuan Guo, and Gia-Pyng Chen
Chapter 12. Annotating texts for language documentation with Discourse
Profiler's metatagging system
Phil Quick
John Atkinson
>>"Harlan Messinger" <hmessinger...@comcast.net> wrotet...
>>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>>> <Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote...
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>> Crybaby wrote:
>>>> I can guarantee you that Peter and his "ilk" are much more
>>>> competent
>>>> at preserving those cultures than you.
>
>>> Heidi wrote:
>>> I think the best preservers of a culture are those who are living
>>> it.
> (snip)
>
>> Harlan wrote:
>> What you're suggesting is like saying a family knows best how to
>> extract and prepare the organs of its deceased loved ones for
>> transplantation into an ailing recipient.
>
> Now you're just being testyrical.
>
>> Harlan wrote:
>> I believe you're confused as to the goal of all of this. This has
>> nothing to do with "letting" these peoples do anything. They need no
>> one's permission to do whatever they want for their *own* benefit.
>> What's being discussed here is an effort by researchers to create a
>> record of the language for the use of researchers. The researchers
>> know what they need. The speakers of the language don't; they don't
>> even necessarily know what "research" is or what "records" are.
Well, that's far from always the case. The records they create are not
only of use for researchers, but also for the people themselves when
they decide that their old culture wasn't so bad after all.
Around 1978, Elizabeth Patz worked with the Gilbert Banning, the last
fluent speaker of Djabugay. In the late 1980s, after his death, in the
wake of nationwide awareness of Aboriginal identity, pride, and
political influence, Djabugay culture and language began to regain
recognition. A language program in the schools was developed by
Gilbert's nephew Roy and other partial speakers, using Patz's grammar
and the recordings of Gilbert's speech.
>> And linguists are doing this because they *want* to.
>
> Well, it certainly beats working in a gravel pit. You don't have to
> worry
> about breaking a fingernail or getting your nails dirty.
That so? Tamsin Donaldson's brilliant work on Ngiyambaa, the language
of the Wangaaybuwan (one of the last languages still being spoken in
NSW) was carried out while she accompanied a group of the last speakers
on trips to hunt for rabbits -- the only environment where they were
accustomed to still use the language. See the photo of seven old ladies
with their crowbars and shovels opposite p 12 in her grammar.
I bet she got more than her fingernails dirty digging all those
burrows.
And of course, most of the places where threatened languages are spoken
are a lot less congenial, climatically and disease-wise, than western
NSW
>>Even if it were better to get these last remaining octogenarian
>>speakers to do it for them, how do you suggest their efforts would be
>>solicited? By enslaving them?
One way that has apparently been used to advantage (see bulanjdjan's
post of 11 April on her blog langguj gel) is to wait till they're
institutionalised. At home, they're often too drunk or otherwise
engaged to be bothered. In the old persons' home or prison, away from
their country and family, they're sober and so bored that they often
welcome the distraction provided by the researcher.
OTOH, many of these old people are super-keen to see their language
preserved, and indeed are sometimes the initiators of the whole
exercise. There was that old bloke (offhand, I forget his name) who
filled several notebooks with what he remembered of his Gamilaraay
language -- he'd never heard of linguistics or linguists, and it never
occurred to him that any whitefellow would be interested. Someone at ANU
found out about them, visited him, and scraped up enough money to give
him a portable tape-recorder (not cheap in those days), which he
continued to work with, mostly by himself, for years thereafter.
Hundreds of his tapes are now archived for linguists to work with.
>> And how would they be trained?
The same way as anyone else.
[...]
John.
Franz Gnaedinger
Heidi Graw:
> > Well, it certainly beats working in a gravel pit. You don't have to
> > worry about breaking a fingernail or getting your nails dirty.
John Atkinson:
> That so? Tamsin Donaldson's brilliant work on Ngiyambaa, the language
> of the Wangaaybuwan (one of the last languages still being spoken in
> NSW) was carried out while she accompanied a group of the last speakers
> on trips to hunt for rabbits -- the only environment where they were
> accustomed to still use the language. See the photo of seven old ladies
> with their crowbars and shovels opposite p 12 in her grammar.
>
> I bet she got more than her fingernails dirty digging all those
> burrows.
>
> And of course, most of the places where threatened languages are spoken
> are a lot less congenial, climatically and disease-wise, than western
> NSW
(...)
> One way that has apparently been used to advantage (see bulanjdjan's
> post of 11 April on her blog langguj gel) is to wait till they're
> institutionalised. At home, they're often too drunk or otherwise
> engaged to be bothered. In the old persons' home or prison, away from
> their country and family, they're sober and so bored that they often
> welcome the distraction provided by the researcher.
>
> OTOH, many of these old people are super-keen to see their language
> preserved, and indeed are sometimes the initiators of the whole
> exercise. There was that old bloke (offhand, I forget his name) who
> filled several notebooks with what he remembered of his Gamilaraay
> language -- he'd never heard of linguistics or linguists, and it never
> occurred to him that any whitefellow would be interested. Someone at ANU
> found out about them, visited him, and scraped up enough money to give
> him a portable tape-recorder (not cheap in those days), which he
> continued to work with, mostly by himself, for years thereafter.
> Hundreds of his tapes are now archived for linguists to work with.
Excellent reply. Heidi is at least provoking
worthwhile and informative discussions.
richard01
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thankyou, Peter, for this reference - (you ARE useful in some ways,
after all). I have just downloaded the book, and, if I have any
worthwhile comments to make, will do so when I've read it. The fact
that Margaret Florey and Steven Quakenbush are involved make my
initial decision to plough through it worthwhile.
Meanwhile, let the debate about preserving languages go on. It's more
than a little difficult to judge whether preserving that huge part of
a small dying culture is worthwhile for the surviving older members of
the culture and perhaps their offspring, or for the very few
researchers who are interested in applying those language relics to
theories on the rest of humanity.
And then there's politics. If Hebrew hadn't been preserved in writing,
then all those so-called returnees from the Roman expulsions would be
speaking Aramaic.
regards
Richard
regards
Richard
John Atkinson
> Well, well, well...let's consider where I might want to spend my
> education dollar.
>
> Will it go to pay for a child to learn to read and write English...a
> language used for global business, a language which will
> allow that child to earn a livelihood?
>
> Or, will it go to a grown up linguist who could be earning his
> own money to support his own research for his special interest
> in saving and/or reviving languages which very few in the world
> have an interest in?
>
> Where will I get the most bang for my buck? Well....the
> answer should be obvious! I don't think I need to spell
> it out, do I?
Yeah, right. But surely you'd get an even bigger bang if you invested
that buck in palm-oil plantations in Borneo so those children can run
their cars and air-con for a few years longer, instead of using it to
finance EFL courses. After all, very few in the world have an interest
in orang utans, do they? Other than grown-up zoologists -- and perhaps
a few other orang utans, who won't be around much longer anyway?
J.
Craoi...@gmail.com
The problem is, that the only persons who could learn something new
from these discussions - kooks such as you and Heidi - never do.
Richard Herring
<38d4e667-567f-4180...@d19g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
"benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> writes
>On May 4, 2:42 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>> On May 3, 2:39 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > On May 3, 3:26 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> > >http://www.thelinguists.com/
>>
>> > > Check out the trailer -- looks a bit like "The Amazing Race".
>>
>> > The New York premiere is at BAM on June 2.
>>
>> > Greg Anderson is a friend of mine. I don't know who Dave is.
>>
>> Poor Greg Anderson. You often use harsh words for the
>> work of friend of yours, so being a friend of yours is
>> rather dangerous ... Sorry, couldn't help making this
>> comment. By the way, did you see the quote from a
>> letter Richard P. Feynman wrote on November 30, 1965,
>> the year he won his Nobel Prize? Meanwhile I commited
>> it to my memory and use any opportunity to recite it,
>> as it is so wonderful: "... study hard what interests you
>> the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original
>> manner possible."
>
>So what's supposed to happen if you do that? You win a Nobel Prize?
No, for that you have to think really hard *and* write down the
[correct] solution.
It's that final step that most advocates of the empty-mind school of
discovery conveniently seem to overlook.
--
Richard Herring
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> The problem is, that the only persons who could learn something new
> from these discussions - kooks such as you and Heidi - never do.
Are you Panu Petteri Höglund?
Peter T. Daniels
Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thankyou, Peter, for this reference - (you ARE useful in some ways,
You have yet to give any indication that you are.
What was the purpose of reproducing the entire listing?
<snipping yet more "white man's burden" crap>
> And then there's politics. If Hebrew hadn't been preserved in writing,
> then all those so-called returnees from the Roman expulsions would be
> speaking Aramaic.
So the history of Hebrew and of Judaism is yet another topic of which
you know nothing.
Trond Engen
> On May 6, 10:18 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>> On May 6, 7:38 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> Excellent reply. Heidi is at least provoking worthwhile and
>> informative discussions.
>
> The problem is, that the only persons who could learn something new
> from these discussions - kooks such as you and Heidi ...
Thank you.
> ... - never do.
Oh, yes, I do.
--
Trond Engen
- increasingly informed
Franz Gnaedinger
Yes, you must be Panu Petteri Höglund, as the killrating
campaign set in again. You are one of my confessing
killraters, another one is John Bulkington63 (I don't
know why he always mentions his IQ - he may well be
the brightest member of his family, but still, an intelligence
quotient of 63 points isn't that high), and there are some
more killraters of mine (Harlan Messinger, I know well
why I speak of a killrating mob). You, Panu Petteri
Höglund, confessing killrater of mine, Don Quixote in
the fight against women's rights, lacking arguments
in the discussions with me, despite the three universities
you attended, a Finn and self-appointed savior of the
Irish language, claiming you are speaking Irish better
than 99.9 or 99.99 or even 99.999 per cent of the Irish,
writer of a stilted German (when you told me my head
may burst the sooner the better, some two years ago):
what are your qualifications for saving the Irish language?
Such an undertaking requires a poetic mind, as explained
in a previous message. What I read from you so far makes
me doubt you got any poetic sensibility, Panu Petteri
Höglund. A killrater yes, a poetic mind no.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On May 6, 2:09 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > On May 6, 11:37 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > The problem is, that the only persons who could learn something new
> > > from these discussions - kooks such as you and Heidi - never do.
>
> > Are you Panu Petteri Höglund?
>
> Yes, you must be Panu Petteri Höglund, as the killrating
> campaign set in again.
I haven't remembered or bothered to killrate you for a long time, but
thanks for pointing out.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> Craoibhi...@gmail.com skreiv:
I am very sorry. :(
Trond Engen
> Trond Engen:
>> Craoibhi...@gmail.com:
>>> Franz Gnaedinger:
>>>> John Atkinson:
>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Excellent reply. Heidi is at least provoking worthwhile and
>>>> informative discussions.
>>>
>>> The problem is, that the only persons who could learn something new
>>> from these discussions - kooks such as you and Heidi ...
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>> ... - never do.
>>
>> Oh, yes, I do.
>
> I am very sorry. :(
Nah... no offence taken. It was a way to say that John didn't write all
that for nothing.
--
Trond Engen
- running after and picking up whatever the big boys throw out
Craoi...@gmail.com
>You, Panu Petteri
> Höglund, confessing killrater of mine, Don Quixote in
> the fight against women's rights,
Warum sollte man sich eigentlich alle Verbrechen der Frauenbewegung
gefallen lassen? Wenn die Emanzen gegen Gesetze verstossen und
unschuldige Menschen verfolgen, gehören sie eingesperrt, so ähnlich
wie Neonazis und andere Feinde der freiheitlich-demokratischen
Grundordnung.
lacking arguments
> in the discussions with me,
Hör mal, Kleiner: du hast dir diese Magdalenensprache aus den Fingern
gesogen. Damit lässt sich ebenso wenig argumentieren wie mit dem Herrn
der Ringe. Es ist nicht Wissenschaft, es ist Fiktion. Du solltest dir
lieber einen interessanten Hintergrund für deine fiktive Sprache
ausdenken, so ähnlich wie es der Tollers gemacht hat. (Da du kein
Insider bist: "Tollers" ist J.R.R. Tolkien, der Autor des Herrn der
Ringe.) Oder, du sollst eine Grammatik und ein Wörterbuch der
Magdalenensprache zusammenbasteln für Leute, die sich für
Kunstsprachen interessieren.
despite the three universities
> you attended, a Finn and self-appointed savior of the
> Irish language, claiming you are speaking Irish better
> than 99.9 or 99.99 or even 99.999 per cent of the Irish,
> writer of a stilted German (when you told me my head
> may burst the sooner the better, some two years ago):
Du hättest wohl das Götzzitat vorgezogen?
> what are your qualifications for saving the Irish language?
Nunja, ich bin seit über einem Jahrzehnt Mitglied mehrerer
irischsprachigen E-Mail-Foren, wo ich im allgemeinen als Sachkenner
geschätzt bin - und da sind auch Muttersprachler dabei.
> Such an undertaking requires a poetic mind, as explained
> in a previous message.
Ich glaube, mit deinen "Erläuterungen" lässt sich wenig anfangen.
What I read from you so far makes
> me doubt you got any poetic sensibility, Panu Petteri
> Höglund. A killrater yes, a poetic mind no.
Nun, Kleiner, ich weiss, dass ich keine Dichternatur bin, aber Pádraig
Ó Cíobháin, ein Muttersprachler aus Kerry und ein produktiver,
geschätzter Schriftsteller in der Sprache, hat ein Romanmanuskript von
mir gelesen - es ist schon neun Jahre her - und hat mir gesagt, es sei
nicht nur gutes Irisch, sondern auch sehr poetisch geschrieben. Das
war wohl alles nur ein Kompliment, aber hat mich natürlich kolossal
gefreut. Aber ich finde, ich hab schon was geleistet, da ich Irland
kaum besuchen kann, ohne gleich von den irischsprachigen Medien
interviewt zu werden. Ich meine, ich kann die Insel nicht mehr als
gewöhnlicher Urlauber besuchen - wenn ich einem meiner
irischsprechenden Bekannten begegne, da spricht sich gleich rum, Panu
ist da, und dann schleppen sie mich gleich rüber in den Rundfunk. Das
spricht schon Bände, finde ich.
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
> what are your qualifications for saving the Irish language?
> Such an undertaking requires a poetic mind, as explained
> in a previous message. What I read from you so far makes
> me doubt you got any poetic sensibility, Panu Petteri
> Höglund. A killrater yes, a poetic mind no.
Übrigens, Büblein, du hast Lichtenberg, einen international bekannten
Aphoristiker, "Lichtenstein" genannt. Du kennst dich nicht mal in den
Namen der Dichter deiner eigenen Zunge aus. Vielleicht nennst du auch
Schiller Schüler, Goethe Götz und Böll Ballermann. Und hältst dich
wohl für einen grossen Kenner in Sachen Dichtung, was?
Harlan Messinger
I was talking about spare time. I certainly wasn't asking you to give up
your job, household chores, trips to the doctor, or anything like that.
> John asked me to
> consider making a donation to the "threatened language" fund.
> Well...I'm looking at my spare change. There are two things
> that I consistently and regularly spend my spare change on...
> 1. Feeding a hungry person. 2. Educating a child.
>
>> If that is an absolute, then your choice to devote yourself to
>> linguistic study IS costing: it's costing children your time.
>
> Yes, I'm an extremely selfish person. I look after my own comforts
> and interests first. Then, whatever is left over, I spend on the
> hungry and uneducated. I don't even spend any of my spare
> change on the sick and the ailing. So, yes, Harlan, I'm a heartless
> bitch. I'm quite prepared to allow a sick person to die
> of his/her disease. And what about you, Harlan?
> What are your priorities?
For someone who's quick to imagine hysteria in others, you sure go off
the deep end.
>> If assisting children were an absolute and overriding concern,
>
> It isn't.
Well, that's how you presented it in the tone of your response to John,
and all I was taking issue with was your implication of "how can one
*possibly* spend money on such a thing when there are children to be
helped?"
António Marques
No. You've eloquently stated your utter stupidity. I don't think I've
called many people 'stupid' in all these years of usenet, but you've
earned the right.
And some news for you: you're not the kind to actually give anything to
anyone; you're the kind that takes away.
--
António Marques
* This signature does not include a prefab parting phrase *
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Harlan Messinger
Anyone else who trains to be a linguist isn't usually an aged speaker of
a language remote enough that researchers are only just getting around
to examining it and at a point in his life where he really just wasn't
contemplating kicking off an academic career and only does so because
somebody from another part of the world wearing an Old Navy jacket and
Rockport shoes shows up one day and says, "Hey, how'd you like to be a
linguistic researcher?"
António Marques
> There are two things that I consistently and regularly spend my spare
> change on... 1. Feeding a hungry person. 2. Educating a child.
Until you prove that you do, all odds are that that's a lie.
('Spare change'??? Someone 'educates a child' with spare change?)
Brian M. Scott
<tron...@engen.priv.no> wrote in
<news:482064b1$0$23833$8404...@news.wineasy.se> in
sci.lang:
[...]
> Nah... no offence taken. It was a way to say that John
> didn't write all that for nothing.
He never does: he's one of the people here whose posts I
*always* read.
Brian
Heidi Graw
>"António Marques" <m....@sapo.pt> wrote in message
>news:d5304$48207962$23...@news.teranews.com...
>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>
>> There are two things that I consistently and regularly spend my spare
>> change on... 1. Feeding a hungry person. 2. Educating a child.
> Antonio wrote:
> Until you prove that you do, all odds are that that's a lie.
Would you like me to scan my World Vision receipts to you?
>
> ('Spare change'??? Someone 'educates a child' with spare change?)
Yep...for less than a dollar a day....It's amazing how far a dollar
will go in a 3rd World country.
Heidi
Heidi Graw
><Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:812380ac-1f27-434e...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
>>Franz wrote:
>>... lacking arguments
>> in the discussions with me,
>Crybaby wrote:
>Hör mal, Kleiner:..
>....Nun, Kleiner,...
>....Übrigens, Büblein,...
Yes, Franz, you are correct. Crybaby definitely
lacks in poetry and imagination.
As for you, Crybaby, even though you may
not have much of an imagination, surely
you can do better than that. Kleiner? Büblein?
Good grief! I expect better from you.
Now, try it again, but please, put some
effort into it.
Thank you,
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>Crybaby wrote:
>Warum sollte man sich eigentlich alle Verbrechen der Frauenbewegung
>gefallen lassen? Wenn die Emanzen gegen Gesetze verstossen und
>unschuldige Menschen verfolgen, gehören sie eingesperrt, so ähnlich
>wie Neonazis und andere Feinde der freiheitlich-demokratischen
>Grundordnung.
Translation: Women refuse to pay attention to me and I'm still
a virgin.
Heidi
António Marques
>
>> "António Marques" <m....@sapo.pt> wrote in message
>> news:d5304$48207962$23...@news.teranews.com...
>>> Heidi Graw wrote:
>>
>>> There are two things that I consistently and regularly spend my spare
>>> change on... 1. Feeding a hungry person. 2. Educating a child.
>
>> Antonio wrote:
>> Until you prove that you do, all odds are that that's a lie.
>
> Would you like me to scan my World Vision receipts to you?
Just post them somewhere and send the link to the newsgroup. Then people
may start believing you. Take care to erase any personal information
other than 'Graw'. I don't want to hear in some months' time that
someone ran away with your precious sutff thanks to some id number on
those files.
>> ('Spare change'??? Someone 'educates a child' with spare change?)
>
> Yep...for less than a dollar a day....It's amazing how far a dollar
> will go in a 3rd World country.
But I wasn't refering to the value. 'Spare change' is not something you
send abroad.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> ><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am engaged to be married, and with
Scandinavian sexual mores, it entails that I am not a virgin. (I would
have preferred to lose my virginity to my present girl-friend though.
It would have been much more romantic that way.) However, I fail to
see the relevancy. How exactly does virginity affect one's linguistic
competency anyway?
Heidi Graw
>>><Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:d10f28e7-6f64-4e1e...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>>On May 6, 7:59 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>> ><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:812380ac-1f27-434e...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> >Crybaby wrote:
>> >Warum sollte man sich eigentlich alle Verbrechen der Frauenbewegung
>> >gefallen lassen? Wenn die Emanzen gegen Gesetze verstossen und
>> >unschuldige Menschen verfolgen, gehören sie eingesperrt, so ähnlich
>> >wie Neonazis und andere Feinde der freiheitlich-demokratischen
>> >Grundordnung.
>>Heidi wrote:
>> Translation: Women refuse to pay attention to me and I'm still
>> a virgin.
>Crybaby wrote:
>I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am engaged to be married,
My sympathies to your fiancee.
>and with
>Scandinavian sexual mores, it entails that I am not a virgin.
Ya right. It's not a good idea to start off a relationship with
lies.
>(I would
>have preferred to lose my virginity to my present girl-friend though.
>It would have been much more romantic that way.)
You don't have a girlfriend and you're not engaged either.
>However, I fail to see the relevancy. How exactly does virginity
>affect one's linguistic competency anyway?
I'm commenting on your whining and griping about women. You gripe
because none of them want to have anything to do with you.
Heidi
Heidi Graw
>>>Antonio wrote:
>>> ('Spare change'??? Someone 'educates a child' with spare change?)
>> Heidi wrote:
>> Yep...for less than a dollar a day....It's amazing how far a dollar
>> will go in a 3rd World country.
> Antonio wrote:
> But I wasn't refering to the value. 'Spare change' is not something you
> send abroad.
Alright. Are you perchance one of those impoverished and starving
linguists?
For me, spare change is anything under a hundred dollars on a weekly basis.
For those wealthier than I, spare change (or chickenfeed as it's sometimes
called)
is anything less than $10,000 per day. What do you consider spare change?
And why would you think that spare change cannot be sent abroad?
Does spare change have to stay local in your area of the world? Can your
spare
change not be converted into bills or cheques?
Heidi
António Marques
'Change', Heidi, are coins. Eventually small notes. This has nothing to
do with their total sum. You can have a zillion dollars in change. You
do not, however, send change abroad.
You can convert change into bills, though unless you own a store with a
cash register, you may be suspect of money laundering.
As to the figurative sense of change ('for me, spare change is...'),
that isn't called for here. 'I consistently and regularly spend my spare
change on...' implies that it's money left over from something, i.e.
that the literal sense is the correct one. If you meant 'spare money',
that's what you should have said.
Unless, of course, you think that the wealthier people are, the higher
the value of the individual pieces of change they carry. Like, say,
people wealthier than you can be expoected to draw $100 bills from their
pockets if someone approaches them asking if they have any change for
the candy machine.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> >>><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:d10f28e7-6f64-4e1e...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >>>On May 6, 7:59 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
> >> ><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:812380ac-1f27-434e...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >> >Crybaby wrote:
> >> >Warum sollte man sich eigentlich alle Verbrechen der Frauenbewegung
> >> >gefallen lassen? Wenn die Emanzen gegen Gesetze verstossen und
> >> >unschuldige Menschen verfolgen, gehören sie eingesperrt, so ähnlich
> >> >wie Neonazis und andere Feinde der freiheitlich-demokratischen
> >> >Grundordnung.
> >>Heidi wrote:
> >> Translation: Women refuse to pay attention to me and I'm still
> >> a virgin.
> >Crybaby wrote:
> >I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am engaged to be married,
>
> My sympathies to your fiancee.
She is just reading this over my shoulder and laughs at you as much as
you.
> >and with
> >Scandinavian sexual mores, it entails that I am not a virgin.
>
> Ya right. It's not a good idea to start off a relationship with
> lies.
You are right. That's why we are quite open and sincere in our
relationship.
>
> >(I would
> >have preferred to lose my virginity to my present girl-friend though.
> >It would have been much more romantic that way.)
>
> You don't have a girlfriend and you're not engaged either.
Yeah right, and you are a renowned linguist. She has actually written
one or two contributions to this group, too. She might want to do it
again just to humiliate you.
> >However, I fail to see the relevancy. How exactly does virginity
> >affect one's linguistic competency anyway?
>
> I'm commenting on your whining and griping about women. You gripe
> because none of them want to have anything to do with you.
I am not interested in your private fantasies. Please answer my
question: If I were still a virgin, how would it affect my abilities
as a linguist?
I admit that I did learn several languages when still a virgin. But
with the Finnish education system, that was quite normal.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On May 6, 9:00 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > >>><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >>>news:d10f28e7-6f64-4e1e...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > >>>On May 6, 7:59 pm, "Heidi Graw" <hg...@telus.net> wrote:
> > >> ><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >> >news:812380ac-1f27-434e...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > >> >Crybaby wrote:
> > >> >Warum sollte man sich eigentlich alle Verbrechen der Frauenbewegung
> > >> >gefallen lassen? Wenn die Emanzen gegen Gesetze verstossen und
> > >> >unschuldige Menschen verfolgen, gehören sie eingesperrt, so ähnlich
> > >> >wie Neonazis und andere Feinde der freiheitlich-demokratischen
> > >> >Grundordnung.
> > >>Heidi wrote:
> > >> Translation: Women refuse to pay attention to me and I'm still
> > >> a virgin.
> > >Crybaby wrote:
> > >I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am engaged to be married,
>
> > My sympathies to your fiancee.
>
> She is just reading this over my shoulder and laughs at you as much as
> you.
...oops, "as much as I", of course.
Trond Engen
> I admit that I did learn several languages when still a virgin. But
> with the Finnish education system, that was quite normal.
In the British system I'm told one can loose the virginity several times
before learning a single foreign language. Seems you can't have a system
without shortcomings.
--
Trond Engen
- where some lose, others win
Heidi Graw
><Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:dcca817e-f323-4c61...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
>Crybaby wrote:
>Please answer my question: If I were still a virgin,
...which you are.
>how would it affect my abilities
>as a linguist?
...you squeak and squeal too much,
plus your voice cracks. ;-)
Heidi
Craoi...@gmail.com
> ><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:dcca817e-f323-4c61...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> (snip)
>
> >Crybaby wrote:
> >Please answer my question: If I were still a virgin,
>
> ...which you are.
Keep dreaming.
>
> >how would it affect my abilities
> >as a linguist?
>
> ...you squeak and squeal too much,
> plus your voice cracks. ;-)
I am waiting for an answer. An insult is not an answer or an argument,
it is an insult.
> Heidi
Peter T. Daniels
> 'Change', Heidi, are coins. Eventually
"Possibly"
Harlan Messinger
> 'Change', Heidi, are coins. Eventually
Classic English trap. "Eventually" = "sooner or later; however long it
takes". "He will eventually realize his mistake." "Eventualmente" =
"possibly".
Craoi...@gmail.com
> ><Craoibhi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
In fact, your sort is one of the most important reasons why I turned
my back to feminism. Far from liberating women to pursue an
intellectually satisfying life, it has actually liberated you to
intellectual dishonesty, which is labeled "women's way with knowledge"
or something equivalent, while science and the principles of
scientific reasoning are labeled "patriarchal". Intellectual cheating,
intimidation, unfair play, and fraud are OK for women, because they
are justified by "centuries of oppression". "Women's
studies" (scholastics and propaganda) are given priority, while real
studies are declining. At my own university, there were actually plans
to abolish the department of Russian studies (those cutbacks and
austerity programs...). Of course, it could never have occurred to
anyone to abolish the Women's studies instead - that would have led to
a political uproar.
And to come back to the present debate: I am entirely sure that if a
women's studies major would read this newsgroup, he or she would with
all the certainty in the world see it as a woman's fight for her right
to apply women's way with knowledge (or some other buzzword
essentially meaning intellectual dishonesty and stupidity you are
supposed to get away with because you are a woman) against us *men*
representing male, patriarchal science with male, patriarchal and thus
bad standards of intellectual honesty.
I am quite sure that some feminist fanzine has already interviewed
Heidi, presenting her dabblings with Middle High German as a supreme
intellectual pursuit and giving an account of her contributions to
this group from a feminist (i.e., Heidi's) perspective.
I don't say all feminists are on the same level of monumental
stupidity as Heidi. But I do insist that Heidi would be much less
arrogant if there were no feminist ideas about women's particularity
scattered around, ideas which essentially justify intellectual
dishonesty and fraud as well as plain old bad manners.
Craoi...@gmail.com
Yes, the same trap exists for speakers of German.
Franz Gnaedinger
>
> Warum sollte man sich eigentlich alle Verbrechen der Frauenbewegung
> gefallen lassen? Wenn die Emanzen gegen Gesetze verstossen und
> unschuldige Menschen verfolgen, gehören sie eingesperrt, so ähnlich
> wie Neonazis und andere Feinde der freiheitlich-demokratischen
> Grundordnung.
So you _are_ Panu Petteri Höglund. Translation of
your above lines: Why should we allow all the crimes
of women's lib? if they break the laws and prosecute
innocent people, they must be put in prison, as the
neo-nutsies and other enemies of the free and liberal
order. --- Can you tell me a crime of women's lib?
I'd say you deserve Heidi's pun on your Irish alias:
crybaby.
As for Lichtenstein: this was an involontary pun of mine,
linking Lichtenberg to Einstein - both were physicists.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On May 6, 4:39 pm, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Warum sollte man sich eigentlich alle Verbrechen der Frauenbewegung
> > gefallen lassen? Wenn die Emanzen gegen Gesetze verstossen und
> > unschuldige Menschen verfolgen, gehören sie eingesperrt, so ähnlich
> > wie Neonazis und andere Feinde der freiheitlich-demokratischen
> > Grundordnung.
>
> So you _are_ Panu Petteri Höglund. Translation of
> your above lines: Why should we allow all the crimes
> of women's lib? if they break the laws and prosecute
> innocent people, they must be put in prison, as the
> neo-nutsies and other enemies of the free and liberal
> order. --- Can you tell me a crime of women's lib?
No problem. Five years ago a young man of relative small stature was
attacked by five young women in Sweden. The women inserted something
into his rectum, simulating rape. They made it explicit to him that
they were exacting their collective revenge upon him as a male. It is
obvious that this crime was inspired by feminism. The young man was
one of the quiet, nice guys who wouldn't even dream of committing a
rape.
You obviously don' t read Swedish, but here is a link:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article228148.ab
> I'd say you deserve Heidi's pun on your Irish alias:
> crybaby.
What you'd say is of no consequence. It remains still unclear, what
relevancy my opinions on feminism have for assessing my competence as
a linguist.
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
You could also read Valerie Solanas's "SCUM Manifesto", which is
nothing but a fascist, anti-male screed, comparable to Mein Kampf as
hate-speech, but still celebrated as a seminal feminist text.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto
And if you stete that the manifesto is just rhetoric all over, you
should be aware of the fact that its author actually tried to kill
Andy Warhol.
As long as the feminist movement adores a psychotic killer as a great
thinker, I resist it for the same reason that I resist fascism.
António Marques
Thank you, though I doubt I'm still able to learn such stuff.
Our 'possibly' sense, at least as I feel it, did evolve from 'given
enough time/samples, it's likely to happen', which isn't really much
different from 'sooner or later'. 'Eventually[, there will be occasions
when] small notes [will work as change]'.
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Poor Hog Loony ... now he became Cry-Baby.
Where did he lose his wild hoggish fangs?
What an unthinkable grunting-screaming-crying-whining creature he must
be!
DV
Peter T. Daniels
> On May 7, 12:16 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > Can you tell me a crime of women's lib?
>
> You could also read Valerie Solanas's "SCUM Manifesto", which is
> nothing but a fascist, anti-male screed, comparable to Mein Kampf as
> hate-speech, but still celebrated as a seminal feminist text.
Ignorant liar.
BTW, what makes you think Heidi represents "feminism"?
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On May 7, 5:37 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On May 7, 12:16 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > > Can you tell me a crime of women's lib?
>
> > You could also read Valerie Solanas's "SCUM Manifesto", which is
> > nothing but a fascist, anti-male screed, comparable to Mein Kampf as
> > hate-speech, but still celebrated as a seminal feminist text.
>
> Ignorant liar.
Here are some quotes.
" The male is completely egocentric, trapped inside himself, incapable
of empathizing or identifying with others, or love, friendship,
affection of tenderness. He is a completely isolated unit, incapable
of rapport with anyone. His responses are entirely visceral, not
cerebral; his intelligence is a mere tool in the services of his
drives and needs; he is incapable of mental passion, mental
interaction; he can't relate to anything other than his own physical
sensations. He is a half-dead, unresponsive lump, incapable of giving
or receiving pleasure or happiness; consequently, he is at best an
utter bore, an inoffensive blob, since only those capable of
absorption in others can be charming. He is trapped in a twilight zone
halfway between humans and apes, and is far worse off than the apes
because, unlike the apes, he is capable of a large array of negative
feelings -- hate, jealousy, contempt, disgust, guilt, shame, doubt --
and moreover, he is aware of what he is and what he isn't."
" Being in the Men's Auxiliary is a necessary but not a sufficient
condition for making SCUM's escape list; it's not enough to do good;
to save their worthless asses men must also avoid evil. A few examples
of the most obnoxious or harmful types are: rapists, politicians and
all who are in their service (campaigners, members of political
parties, etc); lousy singers and musicians; Chairmen of Boards;
Breadwinners; landlords; owners of greasy spoons and restaraunts that
play Muzak; `Great Artists'; cheap pikers and welchers; cops; tycoons;
scientists working on death and destruction programs or for private
industry (practically all scientists); liars and phonies; disc
jockies; men who intrude themselves in the slightest way on any
strange female; real estate men; stock brokers; men who speak when
they have nothing to say; men who sit idly on the street and mar the
landscape with their presence; double dealers; flim-flam artists;
litterbugs; plagiarisers; men who in the slightest way harm any
female; all men in the advertising industry; psychiatrists and
clinical psychologists; dishonest writers, journalists, editors,
publishers, etc.; censors on both the public and private levels; all
members of the armed forces, including draftees (LBJ and McNamara give
orders, but servicemen carry them out) and particularly pilots (if the
bomb drops, LBJ won't drop it; a pilot will). In the case of a man
whose behavior falls into both the good and bad categories, an overall
subjective evaluation of him will be made to determine if his behavior
is, in the balance, good or bad."
SCUM Manifesto is like this from beginning to end: there is nothing
else to it than incitation to violence and mass-murder of men - all
men "who sit idly on the street and mar the landscape with their
presence", "practically all scientists", and so on..
As regards the importance of the manifesto as a feminist text, it has
recently been celebrated by Sara Stridsberg in Sweden, who wrote the
manifesto, added an enthusiastic preface, and won an award for a novel
about Solanas's life.
>
> BTW, what makes you think Heidi represents "feminism"?
Why shouldn't she?
Peter T. Daniels
> On May 7, 2:36 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On May 7, 5:37 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On May 7, 12:16 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> > > > Can you tell me a crime of women's lib?
>
> > > You could also read Valerie Solanas's "SCUM Manifesto", which is
> > > nothing but a fascist, anti-male screed, comparable to Mein Kampf as
> > > hate-speech, but still celebrated as a seminal feminist text.
>
> > Ignorant liar.
>
> Here are some quotes.
How do they make it a "seminal feminist text"? Let alone "celebrated"?
> As regards the importance of the manifesto as a feminist text, it has
> recently been celebrated by Sara Stridsberg in Sweden, who wrote the
> manifesto, added an enthusiastic preface, and won an award for a novel
> about Solanas's life.
Either Stridsberg wrote the manifesto, or Solanas wrote the manifesto.
You can't have it both ways.
Who is Stridsberg, and who says she represents "feminism" any more
than Heidi does?
It's like saying you represent Finns.
> > BTW, what makes you think Heidi represents "feminism"?
>
> Why shouldn't she?
What makes you think she does?
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
> Who is Stridsberg, and who says she represents "feminism" any more
> than Heidi does?
Stridsberg is a celebrated feminist writer in Sweden. Her translation
of SCUM Manifesto was uniformly hailed by the leaders of Swedish
feminism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Stridsberg
http://www.norden.org/webb/news/news.asp?lang=6&id=6800
http://www.svd.se/opinion/brannpunkt/artikel_398951.svd#kommentera
Eva Moberg: "Hennes Scum Manifest (Society for Cutting Up Men) kom ut
på svenska 2003, med ett entusiastiskt förord av Sara Stridsberg,
nyetablerad författare och feminist som bland annat medverkat i
”Bangs” redaktion.
Enligt Stridsberg ”borde boken ha en hedersplats i varje kvinnas
hjärta och bokhylla”. Hon framhåller att det här inte är någon drift
med männen eller någon sorts symbolik, utan det hela är bokstavligt
allvar." (---) "En rad feminister och skribenter har slutit upp kring
Scum Manifestet och särskilt lovordat Sara Stridsbergs hängivna
förord.
Aase Berg skrev i BLM att förordet är lysande och gjorde henne nästan
lika lycklig som manifestet.
Maria-Pia Boëthius beskrev det i ETC (nr 3-4, 04) som ”den mest
lysande feministiska bok som kommit ut på svenska i denna tid”." "Nina
Lekander välkomnade boken i Expressen, Marit Östberg ansåg i Smålands-
Posten att det är ”en av västerlandets viktigaste feministiska
texter”, och Jenny Högström ansåg i Sydsvenskan att ”boken borde ligga
som en bibel på alla hotellrum i världen”."
Peter T. Daniels
> On May 7, 5:00 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Who is Stridsberg, and who says she represents "feminism" any more
> > than Heidi does?
>
> Stridsberg is a celebrated feminist writer in Sweden. Her translation
> of SCUM Manifesto was uniformly hailed by the leaders of Swedish
> feminism.
Pardon me if I don't consider you a reliable source on any sort of
Franz Gnaedinger
Yesterday we celebrated the birthday of a feminist friend
of mine. We were seven women and four men. Marc flew in
from San Francisco, Heather from Birmingham. The meal
was fine, the evening fun. None of us men was getting abused,
we left the table completely unharmed near midnight, and the
goodbye kisses were numerous, sweet and hefty. You know,
some of us like to be around free women with a mind of their own.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On May 7, 10:08 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On May 7, 5:00 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > Who is Stridsberg, and who says she represents "feminism" any more
> > > than Heidi does?
>
> > Stridsberg is a celebrated feminist writer in Sweden. Her translation
> > of SCUM Manifesto was uniformly hailed by the leaders of Swedish
> > feminism.
>
> Pardon me if I don't consider you a reliable source on any sort of
> feminism.
I gave you several links, but you obviously didn't follow them. But I
forgive you. I am perfectly aware that as an American academic, it
would be a career suicide for you to seriously consider any arguments
against feminism on a public forum. However, I would be interested in
knowing, whether you agree with Heidi and Franz that my views on
feminism somehow nullify my views on language.
Craoi...@gmail.com
Please keep your perversions for yourself.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> of mine.
If you - a certified irrationalist kook with delusional ideas on
language and a believer in astrology - have feminist friends, that
actually tells very much about feminism. Tell me what sort of company
you keep, and I'll tell who you are.
Peter T. Daniels
Only to the extent that, for instance, a Nazi's or Klansman's views
might nullify his credibility on any other matter.
To what "career" do you allude? What "career suicide"?
Your ignorance remains appalling.
Craoi...@gmail.com
A Nazi or a Klansman is against democracy. An antifeminist doesn't
need to be. In fact, for a typical feminist, representative democracy
is "structurally" unfair and biased against women.
> To what "career" do you allude? What "career suicide"?
It is quite commonly known that an Anglo-American academic who is
known to hold views critical of feminism will be fired. I could
mention the name of a Finn in Canada, who was well-liked by his
students and considered a good teacher. Still, some taskforce of
feminist students in her university mobilized a campaign against him,
when he had in a private blog criticized feminism.
>
> Your ignorance remains appalling.
I still forgive you.
Peter T. Daniels
> On May 8, 2:41 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 8, 5:22 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On May 7, 10:37 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On May 7, 10:08 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > On May 7, 5:00 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > > > > Who is Stridsberg, and who says she represents "feminism" any more
> > > > > > than Heidi does?
>
> > > > > Stridsberg is a celebrated feminist writer in Sweden. Her translation
> > > > > of SCUM Manifesto was uniformly hailed by the leaders of Swedish
> > > > > feminism.
>
> > > > Pardon me if I don't consider you a reliable source on any sort of
> > > > feminism.
>
> > > I gave you several links, but you obviously didn't follow them. But I
> > > forgive you. I am perfectly aware that as an American academic, it
> > > would be a career suicide for you to seriously consider any arguments
> > > against feminism on a public forum. However, I would be interested in
> > > knowing, whether you agree with Heidi and Franz that my views on
> > > feminism somehow nullify my views on language.
>
> > Only to the extent that, for instance, a Nazi's or Klansman's views
> > might nullify his credibility on any other matter.
>
> A Nazi or a Klansman is against democracy. An antifeminist doesn't
> need to be. In fact, for a typical feminist, representative democracy
> is "structurally" unfair and biased against women.
And Al Capone was convicted on tax evasion. What does your ignorant
bigotry have to do with "democracy"?
> > To what "career" do you allude? What "career suicide"?
>
> It is quite commonly known that an Anglo-American academic who is
"Anglo-American"??? What the hell is that?
> known to hold views critical of feminism will be fired. I could
Fired from _what_?
If you are speaking in the abstract, on what grounds?
> mention the name of a Finn in Canada, who was well-liked by his
> students and considered a good teacher. Still, some taskforce of
> feminist students in her university mobilized a campaign against him,
> when he had in a private blog criticized feminism.
Yup, exactly the same sort of fairy tale retailed by Nazis and
Klansmen. And rightwing nutcases like Dinesh D'Souza.
> > Your ignorance remains appalling.
>
> I still forgive you.-
You have no standing to do so.
Craoi...@gmail.com
I really don't think opposing an antidemocratic, obnoxious movement
qualifies as bigotry. As regards "ignorance", I have often seen that
when I criticize the real-world effects of feminism, I am accused of
ignorance and told to read feminist thinkers. I am quite sure academic
feminist thinkers have been able to camouflage the essentially fascist
and supremacist nature of feminism in a lot of weasel words. I am not
interested in their weasel words. I am interested in reality.
Craoi...@gmail.com
>
> Yup, exactly the same sort of fairy tale retailed by Nazis and
> Klansmen. And rightwing nutcases like Dinesh D'Souza.
I have never even read a line of Dinesh D'Souza, and according to what
I have heard about him, he is indeed a right-wing nutcase. However,
please note that I am not a right-wing nutcase. I am mostly a moderate
left-winger, in issues such as social security or immigration. Anti-
immigrationist bigots and racists have stalked me on the web for the
last two years, and if you ask me, I think most of them are such scum
of the earth that I feel no human solidarity with them whatsoever.
However, the reason why I detest feminists is the same as the reason
why I hate nazi scum: the fact that they are supremacist bigots who
assault and persecute people.
Heidi Graw
><Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:da354b03-fb60-41e2...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
>Crybaby wrote:
>Tell me what sort of company
> you keep, and I'll tell who you are.
Most of my time is spent in the company of
men. According to your logic that would
make me a man. LOL...
As much as your railings against feminism
amuse me, I simply do not have the time
to respond to all of those ridiculous posts of
yours. What you write is simply too bizarre
and it's also off-topic for sci.lang.
Heidi <...a man with balls up front and proud! LOL... ;-)
Brian M. Scott
<Craoi...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:4c25cebc-51b0-49c9...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
[...]
> It is quite commonly known that an Anglo-American academic
> who is known to hold views critical of feminism will be
> fired. [...]
Assuming that your notion of 'Anglo-American academic'
includes U.S. academics, it's neither commonly known nor
true.
Craoi...@gmail.com
> On Thu, 8 May 2008 04:50:26 -0700 (PDT),
> <news:4c25cebc-51b0-49c9...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> > It is quite commonly known that an Anglo-American academic
> > who is known to hold views critical of feminism will be
> > fired. [...]
>
> Assuming that your notion of 'Anglo-American academic'
> includes U.S. academics, it's neither commonly known nor
> true.
Well, maybe not unexceptionally fired. Let me modify: they will at
least be harassed by feminist pressure-groups consisting of young,
often bigoted students, who do have leverage in university
administration, and thus, they will run the risk of being fired.