pt calhar = gl cadrar?

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Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 28, 2005, 4:58:40 AM11/28/05
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Heard a song on the radio, look up the lyrics using keywords 'uniu'
and 'tramar', found:
http://landeiro.deviantart.com/journal/762099/
and was amazed about the many unstressed syllables that become
stressed in the song. "ParecE" etc., a badly written text, or badly
written music that doesn't go with it. Nice sounding song, though.

But that is not my question. Googling on, I somehow reached:
http://alumnos.rai.usc.es/UZ%20RODRIGUEZ%20GERARDO/10passos/passo1.htm
where a Galician and a Portuguese text are contrasted. From it, it
seems that Portuguese "se calhar" (only European Portuguese, I think),
meaning "by chance, occasionally, any, as things happen" is "se
cadrar" in Galician.
This page http://www.lusografia.org/carlosdurao/contrastivo-C.htm
corroborates that. Now I wonder about the etymology. Pt calhar is from
calha+ar, calha is from Latin canalia. If the Galician word has the
same origin, could it mean that n became d (same place of
articulation!) and l became r (not uncommon in Portuguese, so maybe
also in Galician?).
OTOH Portuguese also has a word quadrar, from the almost identical
Latin word. But it doesn't have this meaning. So what's going on here?

--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com

António Marques

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Nov 28, 2005, 3:24:51 PM11/28/05
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> Heard a song on the radio, look up the lyrics using keywords 'uniu'
> and 'tramar', found:
> http://landeiro.deviantart.com/journal/762099/
> and was amazed about the many unstressed syllables that become
> stressed in the song. "ParecE" etc., a badly written text, or badly
> written music that doesn't go with it. Nice sounding song, though.

[,p@rE's+kjumundin't@jru ,sI u'niwpr@,mItr@'mar], iirc.

Perfectly good prosody. The fact is that /I/ is alive and kicking,
though from a distance, limited exposure of methodological prejudice it
may not seem so.

Horrible song, though. I once had to endure a Rui Veloso concert, but
they won't fool me again.

> But that is not my question. Googling on, I somehow reached:
> http://alumnos.rai.usc.es/UZ%20RODRIGUEZ%20GERARDO/10passos/passo1.htm
> where a Galician and a Portuguese text are contrasted. From it, it
> seems that Portuguese "se calhar" (only European Portuguese, I think),
> meaning "by chance, occasionally, any, as things happen" is "se
> cadrar" in Galician.
> This page http://www.lusografia.org/carlosdurao/contrastivo-C.htm
> corroborates that. Now I wonder about the etymology. Pt calhar is from
> calha+ar, calha is from Latin canalia. If the Galician word has the
> same origin, could it mean that n became d (same place of
> articulation!) and l became r (not uncommon in Portuguese, so maybe
> also in Galician?).
> OTOH Portuguese also has a word quadrar, from the almost identical
> Latin word. But it doesn't have this meaning. So what's going on here?

Afaik, gal. 'cadrar' is precisely 'quadrar' - contrast 'a situacion que
nos cadra' with 'a situacao em que nos enquadramos', 'the situation
we're in'.
--
am

laurus : rhodophyta : brezoneg : smalltalk : stargate

Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 28, 2005, 4:11:54 PM11/28/05
to
Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:24:51 +0000: António Marques <m....@sapo.pt>: in
sci.lang:

>> Heard a song on the radio, look up the lyrics using keywords 'uniu'
>> and 'tramar', found:
>> http://landeiro.deviantart.com/journal/762099/
>> and was amazed about the many unstressed syllables that become
>> stressed in the song. "ParecE" etc., a badly written text, or badly
>> written music that doesn't go with it. Nice sounding song, though.
>
>[,p@rE's+kjumundin't@jru ,sI u'niwpr@,mItr@'mar], iirc.
>
>Perfectly good prosody. The fact is that /I/ is alive and kicking,

Yes, but it is never ever stressed in the real language, and in this
song, the music makes it stressed. And there are many other examples
here this goes wrong.

>though from a distance, limited exposure of methodological prejudice it
>may not seem so.

It listen from a distance, yes, you can say that. But that doesn't
make a wrong right.

>> But that is not my question. Googling on, I somehow reached:
>> http://alumnos.rai.usc.es/UZ%20RODRIGUEZ%20GERARDO/10passos/passo1.htm
>> where a Galician and a Portuguese text are contrasted. From it, it
>> seems that Portuguese "se calhar" (only European Portuguese, I think),
>> meaning "by chance, occasionally, any, as things happen" is "se
>> cadrar" in Galician.
>> This page http://www.lusografia.org/carlosdurao/contrastivo-C.htm
>> corroborates that. Now I wonder about the etymology. Pt calhar is from
>> calha+ar, calha is from Latin canalia. If the Galician word has the
>> same origin, could it mean that n became d (same place of
>> articulation!) and l became r (not uncommon in Portuguese, so maybe
>> also in Galician?).
>> OTOH Portuguese also has a word quadrar, from the almost identical
>> Latin word. But it doesn't have this meaning. So what's going on here?
>
>Afaik, gal. 'cadrar' is precisely 'quadrar' - contrast 'a situacion que
>nos cadra' with 'a situacao em que nos enquadramos', 'the situation
>we're in'.

So why is "se calhar" translated with "se cadrar", or vice versa?

António Marques

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Nov 28, 2005, 4:54:11 PM11/28/05
to
Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>>> Heard a song on the radio, look up the lyrics using keywords 'uniu'
>>> and 'tramar', found:
>>> http://landeiro.deviantart.com/journal/762099/
>>> and was amazed about the many unstressed syllables that become
>>> stressed in the song. "ParecE" etc., a badly written text, or badly
>>> written music that doesn't go with it. Nice sounding song, though.
>>
>> [,p@rE's+kjumundin't@jru ,sI u'niwpr@,mItr@'mar], iirc.
>>
>> Perfectly good prosody. The fact is that /I/ is alive and kicking,
>
> Yes, but it is never ever stressed in the real language, and in this
> song, the music makes it stressed.

But it is stressed every so often, depending on context, intonation,
etc. The just isn't any word which, when isolated, has it as the nucleus
of its stressed syllable.

I've been saying that portuguese isn't one stressed syllable plus some
dozen consonants, but that apparently is taken as heretical.

> And there are many other examples
> here this goes wrong.

Sorry, I didn't get this part.

>> though from a distance, limited exposure of methodological prejudice it
>> may not seem so.
>
> It listen from a distance, yes, you can say that. But that doesn't
> make a wrong right.

I'm saying that from a distance it may sound wrong. For me and another
14 million people it doesn't. (As doesn't prendera/desfizera, though
neither are the vowels merged. However, the fact is that portuguese is
somewhat liberal with rhyme - fOra/dEra is quite acceptable, for instance).

(On a related note, it's 'foro/fOros'. Istr you have fOro in one of your
pages. Though 'foro' is almost cornered into the 'foro proprio'
expression these days, having been replaced by fOrum in a number of
situations. The plural is fortunately more resistant.)

>>> But that is not my question. Googling on, I somehow reached:
>>> http://alumnos.rai.usc.es/UZ%20RODRIGUEZ%20GERARDO/10passos/passo1.htm
>>> where a Galician and a Portuguese text are contrasted. From it, it
>>> seems that Portuguese "se calhar" (only European Portuguese, I think),
>>> meaning "by chance, occasionally, any, as things happen" is "se
>>> cadrar" in Galician.
>>> This page http://www.lusografia.org/carlosdurao/contrastivo-C.htm
>>> corroborates that. Now I wonder about the etymology. Pt calhar is from
>>> calha+ar, calha is from Latin canalia. If the Galician word has the
>>> same origin, could it mean that n became d (same place of
>>> articulation!) and l became r (not uncommon in Portuguese, so maybe
>>> also in Galician?).
>>> OTOH Portuguese also has a word quadrar, from the almost identical
>>> Latin word. But it doesn't have this meaning. So what's going on here?
>> Afaik, gal. 'cadrar' is precisely 'quadrar' - contrast 'a situacion que
>> nos cadra' with 'a situacao em que nos enquadramos', 'the situation
>> we're in'.
>
> So why is "se calhar" translated with "se cadrar", or vice versa?

'Se calhar' - if it happens that way
'Se cadrar' - if it frames us - if we find ourselves within that frame.

Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 29, 2005, 1:27:27 AM11/29/05
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>>>> http://landeiro.deviantart.com/journal/762099/

>> And there are many other examples
>> here this goes wrong.

Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:54:11 +0000: António Marques <m....@sapo.pt>: in
sci.lang:


>Sorry, I didn't get this part.

I could only explain if I had access to the song as I heard it on the
radio, which I haven't right now. But I remembering listening to the
song while reading the lyrics, and seeing several cases where the
metrics of the music stressed syllables that shouldn't be stressed,
linguistically.
Maybe it was just the weird way the singer (I don't which one) sang
the song. Perhaps on purpose, for comic effect?

I think in the last but one line there was:
Porque é que tudo é incerto, não pode ser sempre assim,
like this:
PORque é que TUdo é inCERto, não poDE ser SEMpre asSIM.

"poDE" is completely wrong.

And a little above:
Não vês COmo ISto é DUro, ser joVEM não É um POSto,

Jovém? Yeah, right.

Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 29, 2005, 3:48:28 AM11/29/05
to
Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:58:40 +0100: Ruud Harmsen
<realemail...@rudhar.com.invalid>: in sci.lang:

>Heard a song on the radio, look up the lyrics using keywords 'uniu'
>and 'tramar', found:
>http://landeiro.deviantart.com/journal/762099/
>and was amazed about the many unstressed syllables that become
>stressed in the song. "ParecE" etc., a badly written text, or badly
>written music that doesn't go with it. Nice sounding song, though.

Rui Veloso. He just did it again, in another song, that went with a
pre-listen of an interview: briLHO, instead of BRIlho.

António Marques

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Nov 29, 2005, 6:31:07 PM11/29/05
to
Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>>>>> http://landeiro.deviantart.com/journal/762099/
>
>>> And there are many other examples
>>> here this goes wrong.
>>

>> Sorry, I didn't get this part.
>
> I could only explain if I had access to the song as I heard it on the
> radio, which I haven't right now.

But I know what you mean. I know the song well. Better than I'd like
too, in fact. I did mention he was Rui Veloso. I assumed you knew him.
He's very well known.

> But I remembering listening to the
> song while reading the lyrics, and seeing several cases where the
> metrics of the music stressed syllables that shouldn't be stressed,
> linguistically.
> Maybe it was just the weird way the singer (I don't which one) sang
> the song.

He's from Oporto, though he barely has an accent (Pacheco Pereira, a
politician you may see on Sic Noticias, and the kind of person who
measures words and pronunciation carefully, has a much more distinct one).
He is know for the horrible 'Chico Fininho' yeye song, the melancholic
pop 'Porto Covo' which everyone* knows, and the ones from the album
which has the one you mentioned.

(*) Won't take responsibility if there happens to be someone who doesn't
know the song.

> Perhaps on purpose, for comic effect?

No, it's unmarked.

> I think in the last but one line there was:
> Porque é que tudo é incerto, não pode ser sempre assim,
> like this:
> PORque é que TUdo é inCERto, não poDE ser SEMpre asSIM.
>
> "poDE" is completely wrong.
>
> And a little above:
> Não vês COmo ISto é DUro, ser joVEM não É um POSto,
>
> Jovém? Yeah, right.

That's just the way portuguese works. You'll have to get used to it.

Ekkehard Dengler

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Nov 29, 2005, 7:37:44 PM11/29/05
to

Ruud Harmsen schrieb:

> Maybe it was just the weird way the singer (I don't which one) sang
> the song. Perhaps on purpose, for comic effect?
>
> I think in the last but one line there was:
> Porque é que tudo é incerto, não pode ser sempre assim,
> like this:
> PORque é que TUdo é inCERto, não poDE ser SEMpre asSIM.
>
> "poDE" is completely wrong.

In Portuguese and Spanish songs, the syllables you'd normally stress don't
necessarily coincide with downbeats. I think Spanish is even more liberal in
this respect.

Do you know "Campana sobre Campana"? If I remember correctly, it goes
something like this ( ' = downbeat):

'Campana 'sobre cam'pana,
'y sobre 'campana 'una,
'asómate 'a la ven'tana,
'verás al 'Niño en la 'cuna."

Or take Zeca Afonso's version of "Ó Minha Amora Madura", which I think goes:

Ó mi'nha amora ma'dura, ó mi'nha a(...)/(...)mo'ra ma'dura

Regards,
Ekkehard


Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 30, 2005, 4:21:39 AM11/30/05
to
Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:31:07 +0000: António Marques <m....@sapo.pt>: in
sci.lang:

>> I could only explain if I had access to the song as I heard it on the


>> radio, which I haven't right now.
>
>But I know what you mean. I know the song well. Better than I'd like
>too, in fact. I did mention he was Rui Veloso.

I found he wrote the song, but wasn't sure he also sang it himself in
the version I heard.

>I assumed you knew him. He's very well known.

I had heard of his name, and had heard his voice. Since a few days I
also make the link.

>He's from Oporto, though he barely has an accent (Pacheco Pereira, a
>politician you may see on Sic Noticias,

Sadly, the commercial stations cannot be viewed via the internet. Some
say they can, but it doesn't work. Or it is limited to those with an
access provider in Portugal.


and the kind of person who
>measures words and pronunciation carefully, has a much more distinct one).
>He is know for the horrible 'Chico Fininho' yeye song, the melancholic
>pop 'Porto Covo' which everyone* knows, and the ones from the album
>which has the one you mentioned.
>
>(*) Won't take responsibility if there happens to be someone who doesn't
>know the song.

I do, but didn't realise it was his.

>> I think in the last but one line there was:
>> Porque é que tudo é incerto, não pode ser sempre assim,
>> like this:
>> PORque é que TUdo é inCERto, não poDE ser SEMpre asSIM.
>>
>> "poDE" is completely wrong.
>>
>> And a little above:
>> Não vês COmo ISto é DUro, ser joVEM não É um POSto,
>>
>> Jovém? Yeah, right.
>
>That's just the way portuguese works.

Does it? This sort of thing didn't happen in the Lusíades!

> You'll have to get used to it.

I don't think this is special forany language. It's just incorrect
poetry writing, or bad composition. The accents in the music and the
lyrics should coincide, period.

rcaetano

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Nov 30, 2005, 12:21:27 PM11/30/05
to

Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:31:07 +0000: António Marques <m....@sapo.pt>: in
[snip]

> >> And a little above:
> >> Não vês COmo ISto é DUro, ser joVEM não É um POSto,
> >>
> >> Jovém? Yeah, right.
> >
> >That's just the way portuguese works.
>
> Does it? This sort of thing didn't happen in the Lusíades!

Isn't it just that Lusiadas is poetry and the above is popular music? I
believe that sort of thing is pretty common in Brazilian songs' lyrics,
but it would probably be odd in poetry.

Rafael Caetano

Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 30, 2005, 3:48:16 PM11/30/05
to
>Ruud Harmsen schrieb:
>> Maybe it was just the weird way the singer (I don't which one) sang
>> the song. Perhaps on purpose, for comic effect?
>>
>> I think in the last but one line there was:
>> Porque é que tudo é incerto, não pode ser sempre assim,
>> like this:
>> PORque é que TUdo é inCERto, não poDE ser SEMpre asSIM.
>>
>> "poDE" is completely wrong.

Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:37:44 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de>: in sci.lang:


>In Portuguese and Spanish songs, the syllables you'd normally stress don't
>necessarily coincide with downbeats. I think Spanish is even more liberal in
>this respect.

Encontré un ejemplo (o tal vez dos!) de eso en la canción argentina
"Que falta que me haces":
http://www.todotango.com/spanish/biblioteca/letras/letra.asp?idletra=1606#

"Espina de la espera que lastima más y más..."

El cantor canta "que lastíma", pero si significa "it's such a pity",
debe ser "que lástima", ¿no es verdad? ¿O es aquí "lastima", terceira
persona del verbo "lastimar" = "hurt, cause pain"?

En casi todos los sitios del web donde encontré esa letra, se escribe
"Que falta que me hacés". Y es eso que el canto (cuyo nombre no
conozco) canta. ¿Pero es correcto? En un livro de gramática, en
también en http://verbix.com/webverbix/cache/1.hacer.html
veo siempre "haces", con el acento a la primera sílaba.
¿Tal vez sea "incorrecta" en esa letra solamente porque
"¡qué falta que me hacés!..."
rima con
"y dártelo después." ?

Entretanto, dejen me probar algo ..

Que vontade de encontrar-te
depois de tantas noites.
Que vontade de abraçar-te,
que falta que me fazes!...
Se visses que ternura
que tenho para dar-te, ["para te dar"?]
capaz de fazer um mundo
e dar-to depois. [rima tão pouco!]
E então, se te encontro,
seremos novamente,
desesperadamente,
os dois para os dois ["nós dois para nós dois"?].

António Marques

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Nov 30, 2005, 4:57:34 PM11/30/05
to
Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>> But I know what you mean. I know the song well. Better than I'd like
>> too, in fact. I did mention he was Rui Veloso.
>
> I found he wrote the song, but wasn't sure he also sang it himself in
> the version I heard.

Most of his lyrics used to be by a fellow named 'Carlos Te^'. I'm not
aware of any cover versions.

>> He's from Oporto, though he barely has an accent (Pacheco Pereira, a
>> politician you may see on Sic Noticias,
>
> Sadly, the commercial stations cannot be viewed via the internet. Some
> say they can, but it doesn't work. Or it is limited to those with an
> access provider in Portugal.

I suppose so. I get it on cable and must have thought there was a
Hotbird feed or so, but on second I thought don't think there is. I
somehow always assume you have access to everythign and the kitchen sink.
The same porgram used to be on (argh) TSF, 'Flashback' iirc.

>>> Jovém? Yeah, right.
>>
>> That's just the way portuguese works.
>
> Does it? This sort of thing didn't happen in the Lusíades!

Worse happens; I can't precise where, but there are places in classical
verse where for instance i´mpia turns into impi´a. It's worse because
[j] becomes full [i] and the word gets an extra syllable.

>> You'll have to get used to it.
>
> I don't think this is special forany language. It's just incorrect
> poetry writing, or bad composition. The accents in the music and the
> lyrics should coincide, period.

Notice that for it to work, vowel qualities must largely be preserved,
and only the stress, specifically, change. Once that's met, it doesn't
raise a single eyebrow. Maybe stress isn't so important in portuguese,
seeing as most unstressed vowels are reduced anyway, and remain so if
they get the stress - all the while the stressed / now-unstressed ones
being unreduced.

It may be refreshing in some situations, as it's innovative regarding
'normal' usage.

Or do you also think that only words of the same grammatical category
should be put to rhyme?

Ekkehard Dengler

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Nov 30, 2005, 6:01:27 PM11/30/05
to

Ruud Harmsen schrieb:
> Ekkehard Dengler schrieb:

> >In Portuguese and Spanish songs, the syllables you'd normally stress
don't
> >necessarily coincide with downbeats. I think Spanish is even more liberal
in
> >this respect.
>
> Encontré un ejemplo (o tal vez dos!) de eso en la canción argentina
> "Que falta que me haces":
> http://www.todotango.com/spanish/biblioteca/letras/letra.asp?idletra=1606#

> En casi todos los sitios del web donde encontré esa letra, se escribe


> "Que falta que me hacés". Y es eso que el canto (cuyo nombre no
> conozco) canta. ¿Pero es correcto? En un livro de gramática, en
> también en http://verbix.com/webverbix/cache/1.hacer.html
> veo siempre "haces", con el acento a la primera sílaba.
> ¿Tal vez sea "incorrecta" en esa letra solamente porque
> "¡qué falta que me hacés!..."

Hi Ruud.

"Hacés" is usual in Argentinian Spanish. Have a look at
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo.

Regards,
Ekkehard


António Marques

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Nov 30, 2005, 6:31:52 PM11/30/05
to
Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> "Espina de la espera que lastima más y más..."
>
> El cantor canta "que lastíma", pero si significa "it's such a pity",
> debe ser "que lástima", ¿no es verdad? ¿O es aquí "lastima", terceira
> persona del verbo "lastimar" = "hurt, cause pain"?

This one would have trouble working in portuguese. Maybe shifting the
stress from the 3rd last to the 2nd last isn't so admissible.

> En casi todos los sitios del web donde encontré esa letra, se escribe
> "Que falta que me hacés". Y es eso que el canto (cuyo nombre no
> conozco) canta. ¿Pero es correcto?

A mi no me sembla tampoco, ou la' como eles dizem.

> Se visses que ternura
> que tenho para dar-te, ["para te dar"?]

Maybe the 2nd, or 'que te tenho para dar'.

> capaz de fazer um mundo
> e dar-to depois. [rima tão pouco!]
> E então, se te encontro,
> seremos novamente,
> desesperadamente,
> os dois para os dois ["nós dois para nós dois"?].

Any way you want, I think.

Ruud Harmsen

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Dec 1, 2005, 1:45:37 AM12/1/05
to
Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:01:27 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de>: in sci.lang:

>> En casi todos los sitios del web donde encontré esa letra, se escribe


>> "Que falta que me hacés". Y es eso que el canto (cuyo nombre no
>> conozco) canta. ¿Pero es correcto? En un livro de gramática, en
>> también en http://verbix.com/webverbix/cache/1.hacer.html
>> veo siempre "haces", con el acento a la primera sílaba.
>> ¿Tal vez sea "incorrecta" en esa letra solamente porque
>> "¡qué falta que me hacés!..."

>"Hacés" is usual in Argentinian Spanish. Have a look at
>http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo.

Ah, that's interesting, that explains it all. "Vosotros hacéis" >
"hacés".

António Marques

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Dec 1, 2005, 2:08:02 PM12/1/05
to
Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>>> En casi todos los sitios del web donde encontré esa letra, se
>>> escribe "Que falta que me hacés". Y es eso que el canto (cuyo
>>> nombre no conozco) canta. ¿Pero es correcto? En un livro de
>>> gramática, en también en
>>> http://verbix.com/webverbix/cache/1.hacer.html veo siempre
>>> "haces", con el acento a la primera sílaba. ¿Tal vez sea
>>> "incorrecta" en esa letra solamente porque "¡qué falta que me
>>> hacés!..."
>
>> "Hacés" is usual in Argentinian Spanish. Have a look at
>> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo.
>
> Ah, that's interesting, that explains it all. "Vosotros hacéis" >
> "hacés".

But isn't argentine supposed to say 'vos hace´s'? This one here is 'tu
hace´s'.

Ekkehard Dengler

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Dec 1, 2005, 8:01:48 PM12/1/05
to

António Marques schrieb:

Hi António.

In Argentinian Spanish, "hacés" is a second person singular form and the
matching personal pronoun is usually "vos", not "tú". The object pronoun
"te" is used, though, as is the possessive adjective "tu".

The following sentence from
http://www.icarodigital.com.ar/numero14/ajoylimones/futbol.htm sums it up
nicely: "¿Vos cómo te sentís en tu trabajo?"

Regards,
Ekkehard


Javi

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Dec 1, 2005, 10:26:34 PM12/1/05
to
Ekkehard Dengler wrote:

> Ruud Harmsen schrieb:
>
>
>> Maybe it was just the weird way the singer (I don't which one) sang
>> the song. Perhaps on purpose, for comic effect?
>>
>> I think in the last but one line there was:
>> Porque é que tudo é incerto, não pode ser sempre assim,
>> like this:
>> PORque é que TUdo é inCERto, não poDE ser SEMpre asSIM.
>>
>> "poDE" is completely wrong.
>
>
>
> In Portuguese and Spanish songs, the syllables you'd normally stress
don't
> necessarily coincide with downbeats. I think Spanish is even more
liberal in
> this respect.
>
> Do you know "Campana sobre Campana"? If I remember correctly, it goes
> something like this ( ' = downbeat):
>
> 'Campana 'sobre cam'pana,
> 'y sobre 'campana 'una,
> 'asómate 'a la ven'tana,
> 'verás al 'Niño en la 'cuna."


You remember correctly. It is a very popular Christmas song.

--
Javi


Javi

unread,
Dec 1, 2005, 10:43:06 PM12/1/05
to
Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>>Ruud Harmsen schrieb:
>>
>>>Maybe it was just the weird way the singer (I don't which one) sang
>>>the song. Perhaps on purpose, for comic effect?
>>>
>>>I think in the last but one line there was:
>>>Porque é que tudo é incerto, não pode ser sempre assim,
>>>like this:
>>>PORque é que TUdo é inCERto, não poDE ser SEMpre asSIM.
>>>
>>>"poDE" is completely wrong.
>
>
> Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:37:44 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
> <ED...@t-online.de>: in sci.lang:
>
>>In Portuguese and Spanish songs, the syllables you'd normally stress don't
>>necessarily coincide with downbeats. I think Spanish is even more liberal in
>>this respect.
>
>
> Encontré un ejemplo (o tal vez dos!) de eso en la canción argentina
> "Que falta que me haces":
> http://www.todotango.com/spanish/biblioteca/letras/letra.asp?idletra=1606#
>
> "Espina de la espera que lastima más y más..."
>
> El cantor canta "que lastíma", pero si significa "it's such a pity",

Rather, "que lastima más y más" means "that hurts more and more..."

> debe ser "que lástima", ¿no es verdad? ¿O es aquí "lastima", terceira
> persona del verbo "lastimar" = "hurt, cause pain"?

yes.

> En casi todos los sitios del web donde encontré esa letra, se escribe
> "Que falta que me hacés". Y es eso que el canto (cuyo nombre no
> conozco) canta. ¿Pero es correcto? En un livro de gramática,

Ruud, your Spanish is really very good, but there are some very minor
mistakes:

- "Cantante", not "canto"; "cantor" is arcahic/very literary; "canto"
means "song", but maybe you meant "and that is what the song (...)
sings" instead of the more usual "and that is what the singer (...)
sings"; it he were a flamenco singer, then the word could be "cantaor" <
"cantador". The sentence should be "y es eso LO que el cantante (...) canta)

- Libro, not livro (I know it is confusing, why do the Portuguese write
it with <v>, instead with the etymological "b"?)

--
Javi

> también en http://verbix.com/webverbix/cache/1.hacer.html
> veo siempre "haces", con el acento a la primera sílaba.

That's because that page only has the Spain's Spanish conjugation. In
Argentina "vos hacés" is equivalent to "tu haces" in Spain.

> ¿Tal vez sea "incorrecta" en esa letra solamente porque
> "¡qué falta que me hacés!..."
> rima con
> "y dártelo después." ?

It would be incorrect in Spain's Spain, but is correct in Argentinian
Spanish.

--
Javi

Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Dec 2, 2005, 3:22:53 AM12/2/05
to
Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:08:02 +0000: António Marques <m....@sapo.pt>: in
sci.lang:

>>> "Hacés" is usual in Argentinian Spanish. Have a look at

>>> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo.
>>
>> Ah, that's interesting, that explains it all. "Vosotros hacéis" >
>> "hacés".
>
>But isn't argentine supposed to say 'vos hace´s'? This one here is 'tu
>hace´s'.

http://www.todotango.com/spanish/biblioteca/letras/letra.asp?idletra=1606#

There is 'te' (object), and 'tu' (possessive pronoun, not personal),
'tus', but not tu as a personal pronoun (subject).

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo

Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Dec 2, 2005, 3:25:37 AM12/2/05
to
Fri, 02 Dec 2005 04:43:06 +0100: Javi <poziN...@hotmail.com>: in
sci.lang:

>Ruud, your Spanish is really very good, but there are some very minor
>mistakes:

Doesn't surprise me. Thanks for correcting.

>- Libro, not livro (I know it is confusing, why do the Portuguese write
>it with <v>, instead with the etymological "b"?)

Because they also pronounce it with [v] (except in the North of
Portugal).

Ekkehard Dengler

unread,
Dec 2, 2005, 7:40:36 AM12/2/05
to

Ruud Harmsen schrieb:
> António Marques schrieb:

> >> I think in the last but one line there was:
> >> Porque é que tudo é incerto, não pode ser sempre assim,
> >> like this:
> >> PORque é que TUdo é inCERto, não poDE ser SEMpre asSIM.
> >>
> >> "poDE" is completely wrong.
> >>
> >> And a little above:
> >> Não vês COmo ISto é DUro, ser joVEM não É um POSto,
> >>
> >> Jovém? Yeah, right.
> >
> >That's just the way portuguese works.
>
> Does it? This sort of thing didn't happen in the Lusíades!
>
> > You'll have to get used to it.
>
> I don't think this is special forany language. It's just incorrect
> poetry writing, or bad composition. The accents in the music and the
> lyrics should coincide, period.

If misplaced stresses can spoil a song for you, I can empathise, although I
personally find them much less distracting in Portuguese than in English.
Especially Swedish English. Take this line from "The Winner Takes It All":
"Seeing me so 'tense, no self-confi'dence".

By and large, Portuguese listeners seem relatively tolerant as far is
prosody is concerned. Otherwise it would be hard to explain why traditional
songs abound with instances of the "jo'vem" phenomenon.

However, some people are a little more sensitive to the issue. In an
interview with Simone de Oliveira, the singer Carlos Mendes once denounced
pop lyrics (or tunes) that force the singer to emphasise syllables that
wouldn't normally be stressed. I recall him talking about people singing
[me'z@] and [b@~N'ku]. I'm not completely sure he isn't occasionally guilty
of the same, though.

Incidentally, I've got the impression that enjambement, too, is more common
in Portuguese songs than in English-language ones:

"Para terem feito da casa o que fizeram
melhor fora que a mandassem para as alminhas,
pois ser casa de penhores
o que foi viveiro d'amores
é ideia que não cabe cá nas minhas
recordações do calor
e das saudades. O gosto
que eu vou procurar esquecer
numas ginginhas,
pois dar de beber à dor é o melhor,
já dizia a Mariquinhas."

Regards,
Ekkehard


Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Dec 2, 2005, 2:08:11 PM12/2/05
to
Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:37:44 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de>: in sci.lang:

>In Portuguese and Spanish songs, the syllables you'd normally stress don't


>necessarily coincide with downbeats. I think Spanish is even more liberal in
>this respect.

I may also be that I often simply mishear things. For example, Rádio
Alfa in Paris intermixes a lot of short advertisements for "Discoteca
Lua Vista" ("onde a lua brilha toda a noite"). I discover only tonight
that Lua Vista is its name; for many weeks I always heard something
like "Lua di Stá", as if the second part was Italian or some similar
language. Perhaps it's the French rendering of the (usually fully
bilingual) announcer? But the slogan always came out accentless, and I
understood that part all that time.

Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Dec 7, 2005, 11:04:35 AM12/7/05
to
Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:37:44 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de>: in sci.lang:
>In Portuguese and Spanish songs, the syllables you'd normally stress don't
>necessarily coincide with downbeats. I think Spanish is even more liberal in
>this respect.

The article below was in the Dutch newspaper "NRC" today. It is more
or less connected to the above. I apologise to those who cannot read
Dutch, no time for a translation right now.

Summary: melody discovered of a song in a play by Vondel, 367 years
old, by algorithmically comparing length and rhythm of words and
verses of known lyrics, with those of known melodies. They were not
usually published together in those days.
From the analysis, it can be decided which must have belonged to
which.

http://www.nrc.nl/kunst/artikel/1133935244279.html
===
Melodie Gysbrecht gevonden

Door onze redacteur Kasper Jansen

AMSTERDAM, 7 DEC. Hoe klonk de Gysbrecht van Aemstel 367 jaar geleden?
Dat kunnen we weten, nu de muziek van de Rey van Burghzaten uit het
toneelstuk van Vondel is teruggevonden. De melodie van 'Waar werd
oprechter trouw', gezongen bij de opening van de Amsterdamse
Stadsschouwburg in 1638, blijkt afkomstig van het lied 'N'esperez plus
mes yeux' van de Franse componist Antoine de Boėsset.

Tot nu toe was van de vier reyen (koren) uit de Gysbrecht alleen een
melodie bekend bij de Rey van Klarissen 'O Kerstnacht, schoner dan de
dagen'. Die tekst van Vondel heeft sinds lang een officiėle religieuze
status en is opgenomen in bundels met psalmen en gezangen. 'Waar werd
oprechter trouw dan tussen man en vrouw ter wereld ooit gevonden?' zal
morgenavond op de juiste noten worden gezongen door de tenor Nico van
der Meel tijdens een concert in de Noorderkerk in Amsterdam.

De melodie is vorige maand ontdekt door de Utrechtse musicoloog prof.
dr. Louis Peter Grijp, ook verbonden aan het P.J. Meertens Instituut
in Amsterdam. Grijp vergelijkt al jaren met behulp van een computer
liedteksten en muziek. In de zestiende en zeventiende eeuw werden die
meestal niet samen afgedrukt. Voor veel liederen werd geen nieuwe
muziek gecomponeerd. Men zong - zoals nu nog bij bruiloften en feesten
- 'op de wijs van'. Die melodieėn kende iedereen.

Wanneer de computer constateert dat lengte en ritmiek van woorden en
strofen precies passen op de muziek van een lied, kan Grijp met aan
zekerheid grenzende waarschijnlijkheid zeggen wat de originele melodie
was.

Omdat de kennis van de oorspronkelijk muziek verloren ging, is later
voor de Gysbrecht nieuwe muziek gecomponeerd door tal van componisten,
zoals Ruloffs, Verhulst, Zweers, Diepenbrock, Badings en Tarenskeen,
de laatste nog in 1995.
===

Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Dec 9, 2005, 8:43:27 AM12/9/05
to
Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:37:44 +0100: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de>: in sci.lang:
>In Portuguese and Spanish songs, the syllables you'd normally stress don't
>necessarily coincide with downbeats. I think Spanish is even more liberal in
>this respect.

Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:48:16 +0100: Ruud Harmsen
<realemail...@rudhar.com.invalid>: in sci.lang:


>En casi todos los sitios del web donde encontré esa letra, se escribe
>"Que falta que me hacés".

"Ekkehard Dengler":


>"Hacés" is usual in Argentinian Spanish. Have a look at
>http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo.

I thought there was a similar example in the new (and so far only) CD
by Aldina Duarte http://rudhar.com/musica/aduarte/en/aduarte.htm , in
the fourth track entitled "Ai meu amor se bastasse" ("O, my love, if
only it could be enough").
The second line I heard as: "sabés que eu te amo tanto", but that's
impossible, because it is "sabes", not "sabés". On inspecting the
lyrics, it turned out to be "saberes", with a barely audible 'r'. It's
one of those uniquely Portuguese "personal infinitives" ("saber" + 2nd
person singular "es"), so the whole thing means:
"O, my love, if only it could be enough for you to know that I love
you so much", or maybe even.
"O, my love, if only it could be enough for me if you knew that I love
you so much".
(PCMIIW).

On that same CD, an example in (the much recommended) track 12,
"Canção a meia voz", of how understanding Portuguese can be difficult.
This rather strange sounding song starts with the line:
"A minha vida é sempre ontem", "My life is always yesterday". A few
years ago, and maybe still rather recently, I could easily have heard
that "é sempre ontem" as "esse emprontem" (even though two vowels
aren't the same), and then start desperately checking dictionaries for
the word "emprontem" (or "prontem") and wonder why it doesn't exist,
although she so clearly sings that, no doubt about it ...

spj...@iop.kcl.ac.uk

unread,
Dec 13, 2005, 8:59:40 AM12/13/05
to

Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> The article below was in the Dutch newspaper "NRC" today. It is more
> or less connected to the above. I apologise to those who cannot read
> Dutch, no time for a translation right now.
>
> Summary: melody discovered of a song in a play by Vondel, 367 years
> old, by algorithmically comparing length and rhythm of words and
> verses of known lyrics, with those of known melodies. They were not
> usually published together in those days.
> From the analysis, it can be decided which must have belonged to
> which.

That's an interesting article, but I'm very sceptical. As the
newspaper
author points out, it's not hard to fit words to lyrics, Dutch people
do it
a lot this time of year. There's quite a bit of latitude in the fit,
as you
soon notice when you try to sing foreign songs. At the moment I'm on
the lookout for French songs to sing with my daughter to enrich her
lessons. How good would the grasp of prof Grijp be for example with
the traditional songs V'la le bon vent and En Roulant ma boule? These
have the same lyrics except for the chorus, and have different
melodies.
In fact the structure of the songs is such that each line is sung in
two ways
in each song, so that's 4 equally authentic ways. Of course there are
some
rhythm constraints, but they're not very taxing. According to the
Canadian
Encyclopedia, http://shorl.com/hitugrabrustade ,92 variants of the
above
folksong have been collected in Canada.

Of course I haven't read any of Prof. Grijp's papers, maybe they have
convincing
statistics...

Leo

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