unas preguntas...
phil hunt
1. does anyone know any good websites for explaining Spanish grammar?
2. is it "las chicas bonitas espanolas" or "las bonitas chicas
espanolas"?
3. how do I do accented characters (my software is Linux, KDE Konsole
and slrn)?
4. what's a good translation into Spanish of "sex kitten"?
--
#===== Philip Hunt == ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk ======#
Herbivore: effort-free public key email encryption. See:
<http://www.vision25.demon.co.uk/oss/herbivore/intro.html>
*** herbrip software now released ***
Chris S.
No, but there are many good books out there, I'm sure. Also, use
http://groups.google.com and set the group for ALT.USAGE.SPANISH while
searching. That way, you can find discussions about certain grammatical
points.
>2. is it "las chicas bonitas espanolas" or "las bonitas chicas
>espanolas"?
In most cases, the adjectives follows the noun it modifies. So, las chicas
bonitas españolas.
>3. how do I do accented characters (my software is Linux, KDE Konsole
>and slrn)?
I've no clue..
--Chris
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> 2. is it "las chicas bonitas espanolas" or "las bonitas chicas
> espanolas"?
Unlike in English, in Spanish adjectives enjoy a higher degree of
freedom, as far as their position within a sentence is concerned. I'd
say that "las bonitas chicas españolas" is the least marked version,
but you might modify the order without making a mess.
Sometimes by placing the adjective before or after the noun it refers
to you may convey very slight shades of meaning, but I doubt it is a
detail you should care about at this stage.
Bye,
Nicola
Micareddu
> ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk (phil hunt)
>
> > 2. is it "las chicas bonitas espanolas" or "las bonitas chicas
> > espanolas"?
>
>" las bonitas chicas españolas" suggests all Spanish girls are pretty.
Adiós.
Micareddu
GB Blanchard
Try our Spanish Whiz program:
http://www.braser.com/spanh.html
> 2. is it "las chicas bonitas espanolas" or "las bonitas chicas
> espanolas"?
The adjective order gives different shades of meaning: the first one
sounds like it refers ONLY to the pretty ones, while the second
suggests that ALL of the Spanish girls are pretty.
> 3. how do I do accented characters (my software is Linux, KDE Konsole
> and slrn)?
Others can give you a better answer about this one.
> 4. what's a good translation into Spanish of "sex kitten"?
Maybe something like 'mujer / chica sexy' or 'mujer / chica sensual'.
=========================================
Brad Blanchard
BRASER SOFT *** Learn Spanish / Aprender inglés
Aptdo. de Correos 555 - Estepona, Málaga (Spain)
Website : http://www.braser.com
Bill Hayles
>>" las bonitas chicas españolas" suggests all Spanish girls are pretty.
Disfruto muchísimo viendo las chicas españolas. Todas estan lindas.
--
Bill
la mia e-mail@libero.it Erny
>Bill Hayles
-----------------
> Disfruto muchísimo viendo las chicas españolas. Todas estan lindas.
> Bill
Erny:
-------
" Todas SON lindas", should be correct.
Regards
Erny
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
El nombre se omite por error del Windous
"Erny" <erny-nonèquesta la mia e-m...@libero.it> escribió en el mensaje
news:XfBb7.16079$fA3.6...@news.infostrada.it...
>
> >Bill Hayles
> -----------------
>
> > Disfruto muchísimo viendo las chicas españolas. Todas estan lindas.
> > Bill
>
>
> Erny:
> -------
>
> " Todas SON lindas", should be correct.
>
Sí, la corrección es adecuada, pero todos hemos entendido a Bill ;-)
Un saludo, txolbi
Lovecraftesque
<ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Some questions I have:
>
> 1. does anyone know any good websites for explaining Spanish grammar?
>
> 2. is it "las chicas bonitas espanolas" or "las bonitas chicas
> espanolas"?
Both. Their meanings differ slightly, since you are emphasizing
different things. I would interpret the first one as talking about those
Spanish girls who happen to be pretty, whereas the second one expresses
an assumption that Spanish girls are usually pretty.
> 3. how do I do accented characters (my software is Linux, KDE Konsole
> and slrn)?
Ask this in comp.os.linux.misc and post the answer here when you have
found out, if you don't mind.
> 4. what's a good translation into Spanish of "sex kitten"?
Hmm... I wonder?
Kate Workman
for learning Spanish (grammar, verbs, etc.) with some online practice
too.
2. Las chicas bonitas españoles (not españolas)
3. Can't help you there... I don't know Linux. Look to see if there is
a character map available that will tell you which ''alt + number''
sequence will give you accented characters.
4. I can't help you out here either... I am not familiar with it in
English.
Kate
phil hunt
>1. http://www.studyspanish.com/index.htm is the best website I know of
>for learning Spanish (grammar, verbs, etc.) with some online practice
>too.
>
>2. Las chicas bonitas españoles (not españolas)
Are you sure? Everyone else thinks it is españolas?
la mia e-mail@libero.it Erny
>phil hunt:
---------------
> Are you sure? Everyone else thinks it is españolas?
Erny:
--------
I agree 100% with Salachich:
El chic-O español - The Spanish boy
Los chic-OS español-ES - The Spanish boys
La chic-A español-A - Tha Spanish girl
Las chic-AS español-AS - The Spanish girls
Los español-ES - The Spanish people ( indefinite
gender )
I understand that for the english-speaking people making the plural of the
spanish nouns is quite hard ; but it should be true only when the gender is
not definite ( and the singular form is unknown); surely is not the case of
"chicas".
Above all if they are chicas bonitas :>))))))
Ciao from Italy
Erny
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
phil hunt
Disfruto tambien. He estado ahi de vacaciones, la semana pasada.
Bill Hayles
Windous" <txo...@navegalia.com> wrote:
>> >Bill Hayles
>> -----------------
>>
>> > Disfruto muchísimo viendo las chicas españolas. Todas estan lindas.
>> > Bill
>>
>>
>> Erny:
>> -------
>>
>> " Todas SON lindas", should be correct.
>>
>
>Sí, la corrección es adecuada, pero todos hemos entendido a Bill ;-)
No comprendo.
Soy inglés, soy hombre, pero estoy gordo, estoy grande. ¿Porqué no
estoy lindo o estoy feo?
"Inglés" es clase fijada, visto que "gordo" es clase variable. "Lindo/a"
es variable (un dia, linda, otro dia, sin maquillaje, menos linda).
Mi profesora de español me enseñé usar ser para conceptos fijados y
esrat para conceptos variables. ¿No es verdadero?
Un saludo
--
Bill
Juan Rodriguez
No; no es así. Si así fuese, diríamos cosas como "está de día" en vez
de "es de dia," que es lo que realmente decimos; o "es muerto" (ya que
la muerte es permanente) en vez de "está muerto" que es lo que realmente
decimos.
Ignoro cual es la razón de que sea así.
Juan Antonio Rodriguez-Sero; ja...@halcyon.com
Lake Forest Park, WA 98155 - 2940 U. S. A.
-----------------------------------------------
The thoughts of others / Were light and fleeting,
Of lovers' meeting / Or luck or fame.
Mine were of trouble / And mine were steady,
So I was ready / When trouble came.
A. E. Housman
António
> 1. does anyone know any good websites for explaining Spanish grammar?
No.
> 2. is it
It depends on the possible parsings:
> "las chicas bonitas espanolas"
allows only
(chicas bonitas) espanolas
which should mean 'the beautiful chicks spanish', which isn't terribly
good, but might work in context;
> or "las bonitas chicas espanolas"?
allows both
(bonitas chicas) espanolas 'spanish beautiful chicks'
bonitas (chicas espanolas) 'beautiful spanish chicks'
which can suit most of the purposes.
> 3. how do I do accented characters (my software is Linux, KDE Konsole
> and slrn)?
Have no idea. {\a} and the like?
> 4. what's a good translation into Spanish of "sex kitten"?
_Gata caliente_? Would have to know what the english really means and
then again would have to know some spanish.
--
António Pedro R. Marques . http://www.terravista.pt/enseada/6172
«If ---'re dead, falling thru space, who would want to take His place?»
Danny Loss
I disagree with "estoy gordo" and "estoy grande" (except in special
circumstances). Both *gordo* and *grande* describe a more or less
permanent condition, as do *lindo* and *feo*. Estar should be used
for conditions that are more temporary: sickness, happiness, boredom,
etc. To me (note: Spanish is not my native language) "estoy gordo"
implies that the speaker is only temporarily fat, yesterday he wasn't
fat, and he probably won't be tomorrow, either. (Siento el inglés,
leí esta mensaje en sci.lang)
Danny
Brion L. VIBBER
> 3. how do I do accented characters (my software is Linux, KDE Konsole
> and slrn)?
AltGr+; followed by a vowel gives the vowel with acute accent: áéíóú
AltGr+] followed by n gives ñ
Disclaimer: this is on my US keyboard; UK labeling of these keys may or may
not differ. (On a US keyboard, AltGr is labeled simply as the right Alt key
and no one bothers to tell us that it has mickle powers.)
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox,com)
Bill Hayles
>
>I disagree with "estoy gordo" and "estoy grande" (except in special
>circumstances). Both *gordo* and *grande* describe a more or less
>permanent condition, as do *lindo* and *feo*. Estar should be used
>for conditions that are more temporary: sickness, happiness, boredom,
>etc. To me (note: Spanish is not my native language) "estoy gordo"
>implies that the speaker is only temporarily fat, yesterday he wasn't
>fat, and he probably won't be tomorrow, either. (Siento el inglés,
>leí esta mensaje en sci.lang)
Perhaps you'd better take this up with my (former) Spanish teacher, who
comes from San Sebastien.
I clearly remember the question:
¿Que haces hacer si estas gordo? and my reply
No haces hacer nada. ¡Es bueno estar gordo!
Which raised a laugh in the class.
(Estoy muy grande - 1.92m - y muy gordo - 120kg)
--
Bill
André Keshav
Bill Hayles <bil...@wanadoo.es> a écrit dans le message :
okvvmt45vhtjinsr8...@4ax.com...
You may use both "estar" or "ser linda" with different shades of meaning.
"Estar linda" would imply that your statement is true at a particular time,
e.g. if you say "You are beautiful tonight", but "ser linda" would be much
more common, e.g. in "todas son lindas", which is a genaral statement, i.e.
a "fixed concept".
AK
El nombre se omite por error del Windous
"Bill Hayles" <bil...@wanadoo.es> escribió en el mensaje
news:okvvmt45vhtjinsr8...@4ax.com...
Jeje, siento no poder ayudarte Bill, me "fumé" la clase de filosofía que
explicaban la diferencia entre esencia y existencia, sorry :-( Pero, yo creo
que tu profe tiene razón, es una afirmación que simplifica mucho el tema, al
diferenciar entre clases fijadas y variables, además, los ejemplos que han
escrito los coleguillas te ayudarán an tu aprendizaje, yo no sé explicarlo,
pero creo que no me equivoco cuando hablo (porque tengo el "skill" de la
"feasibility: an able speaker knows if something is possible in the
language, even if s/he hasn't studied grammar)
no sé ni lo que digo (pero no me lo he inventado, eso lo he leído en alguna
parte), saluda: txobi
antónio pedro m. r. h. marques
The difference between the two is that _eSTAr_ refers to a STAte, while
_ser_ refers to an attribute. In some cases the distinction may seem
blurred, but it holds if you think well enough (one may be a better
description, both being valid, or one may be more unapplicable, both
being odd).
It can well be that both a state or an attribute may be the matter, and
that's where the transient/essential distinction works.
--
antónio pedro r. marques
www.terravista.pt/enseada/6172 /aon /espello
antónio pedro m. r. h. marques
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
That's true, but don't use "linda" to describe a Spanish girl, since in Spain
"lindo" is used ironically. Call her "guapa", "bonita" or "tía buena".
Coby
Bill Hayles
(Coby (Jacob) Lubliner) wrote:
>
>That's true, but don't use "linda" to describe a Spanish girl, since in Spain
>"lindo" is used ironically. Call her "guapa", "bonita" or "tía buena".
¡Epa! ¡No es sorprendente que no tenga mucho suerte con las chicas!
--
Bill
Nicola Nobili
> ¡Epa! ¡No es sorprendente que no tenga mucho suerte con las chicas!
¿MuchO? Creí que "suerte" fuera una palabra de género feminino...
Chao,
Nicolás (!)
--
Multa non quia difficilia sunt non audemus, sed quia non audemus sunt
difficilia (Seneca).
Phil Dragoman
Nicola Nobili wrote in message <9kunfg$6ctro$2...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>...
>Bill Hayles
>
>> ¡Epa! ¡No es sorprendente que no tenga mucho suerte con las chicas!
>
> ¿MuchO? Creí que "suerte" fuera una palabra de género feminino...
>
> Chao,
> Nicolás (!)
>
Pero puede que sea una palabra "linda"! ;-)
Por muy extraño que parezca, la palabra 'sors' en latín fué de género
femenino (igualmente los derivados 'la suerte' y 'la sorte') pero
la palabra francesa es 'le sort'. Quién puede explicar la suerte
gramatical? ;-)
Chao,
Felipe
El nombre se omite por error del Windous
"Coby (Jacob) Lubliner" <co...@newton.me.berkeley.edu> escribió en el mensaje
news:9ku77v$2m7s$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
Es cierto, es España nunca le digas a un hombre (esp. macho ibérico) "lindo"
porque es sinónimo de "afeminado"
Nicola Nobili
> Por muy extraño que parezca, la palabra 'sors' en latín fué
¿Por qué "fué" con acento?
> femenino (igualmente los derivados 'la suerte' y 'la sorte') pero
> la palabra francesa es 'le sort'. Quién puede explicar la suerte
> gramatical? ;-)
Sí, pero en francés existe la palabra "la chance" también. Parece que la
"fortuna" (en su significado latín de "vox media") es siempre o casi siempre
de genero feminino. Y siempre se representa como una mujer en las pinturas y
las obras de arte en general.
Adios,
Nicola
la mia e-mail@libero.it Erny
>Nicola Nobili <
-----------------------
> ¿Por qué "fué" con acento?
> CUT
. Parece que la "fortuna" (en su significado latín de "vox media") es
siempre o casi siempre
> de genero feminino.
< CUT
> Adios,
> Nicola
Erny:
-------
¿Por qué "género" sin acento?
Eheheh, ti ho beccato,eh?
Ciao
Erny
P.S.: mihh, ma quante lingue parli?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Nicola Nobili
> ¿Por qué "género" sin acento?
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
> P.S.: mihh, ma quante lingue parli?
Mah, piú o meno quelle che parli tu... anzi, una in meno, io non so il
siciliano :-)
Au revoir,
la mia e-mail@libero.it Erny
>Nicola Nobili
--------------------
> Mah, piú o meno quelle che parli tu... anzi, una in meno, io non so il
> siciliano :-)
> Au revoir,
> Nicola
Erny:
--------
No te creas que yo hablo bien español.
Sencillamente, he podido corregir tu descuido porque la palabra *género* se
encuentra
muchas veces en las primeras páginas de mi gramática, que consulto con
frecuencia
desde cuando, la semana pasada, he decidido a suplir las faltas de mi
español
escrito.
Mi presencia en este grupo es la confirmación de mi intenciones.
Te saludo,
Erny
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Phil Dragoman
Nicola Nobili wrote in message <9l0m7m$6ub9b$3...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>...
>Phil Dragoman
>
>> Por muy extraño que parezca, la palabra 'sors' en latín fué
>
> ¿Por qué "fué" con acento?
Mmmm, vamos a ver. :-) Porque (1) compré montones de acentos
muy barato. (2) me gusta mucho jugar con "charmap". (3) aprendi
el español desde el "Berlitz sin maestro: Español". Utiliza el acento.
(4) Bodmer y Hogben en "Loom of Language" emplean el acento
también. (en este caso se llama el acento "el 'e' deleitosamente
racista"). (5) Mario Pei está (estuvo) adicto de acentos. (6) Pero
hablando en serio, ¿no es correcto así con acento?
>
>> femenino (igualmente los derivados 'la suerte' y 'la sorte') pero
>> la palabra francesa es 'le sort'. ¿Quién puede explicar la suerte
>> gramatical? ;-)
>
> Sí, pero en francés existe la palabra "la chance" también. Parece que la
>"fortuna" (en su significado latín de "vox media") es siempre o casi siempre
>de genero feminino. Y siempre se representa como una mujer en las pinturas y
>las obras de arte en general.
Estoy de acuerdo. La fortuna es, tal como la mujer, inconstante. Varium et
mutabile semper femina... La donna è mobile... (La jefa va a matarme.)
Además, ¿cómo puede un hombre abrazar a la fortuna si se representa en
forma de macho feo o de chico lindo? No soy artista, (pero btw soy pianista
y sé bien que la lengua de la música es realmente el italiano; en cuanto a mí
yo comprendo muy bien "fagotto" - quest'è lo come si chiama 'bassone', il
cazzo degli strumenti a vento in bosco ;-)) pero si voy a morir, prefiero morir
entre los brazos (por lo menos) de una mujer hermosa sino cruel.
BTW, tu hablas bastantes lenguas. Está muy impresionante. Espero que
seas profesor de lenguas!
Ciao,
Phil
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> y sé bien que la lengua de la música es realmente el italiano
Espero que nuestros amigos americanos entiendan el español también...
Me parece que lo más sincero que se dice en este newsgroup se escribe
en el idioma castilliano.
> en cuanto a mí
> yo comprendo muy bien "fagotto"
Estoy seguro que todos mis "enemigos virtuales" lo entienden también,
es un problema de otra natura, si comprendes lo que digo...
- quest'è lo come si chiama 'bassone', il
> cazzo degli strumenti a vento in bosco
Che diamine dici? Perdonami, forse "bassone" esiste in italiano, ma
non lo si usa spesso. Ma cosa sarebbero questi "strumenti a vento in
bosco"? "Woodwind"? Allora si dice "i legni".
> BTW, tu hablas bastantes lenguas.
Gracias. (Pero "tú" se escribe con acento).
> Está muy impresionante. Espero que
> seas profesor de lenguas!
Aún no, espero que enseñaré también, me gustan muchos las lenguas. Soy
intérprete del inglés y del ruso, a veces doy leciones particulares,
pero he terminado la universidad hace demasiado poco tiempo, en Italia
tienes que esperar 5 años ante que obtenir el derecho de enseñar en la
universidad, y no quireo trabajar en una escuela de otro tipo.
Chao,
Nicola
Nicola Nobili
Casi me olvidé, lo siento:
> (6) Pero
> hablando en serio, ¿no es correcto así con acento?
Las reglas ortográficas españolas dicen que cuando una vocal "fuerte"
(a, e, o) y una débil (i, e) se encuentran, siempre el acento cae sobre la
fuerte; si no es así, tienes que utilizar el acento sobre la vocal débil.
Por lo tanto, es claro que "fue" no necesita acento. Si lo añades, no es un
"error", creo, se entiende, todavía es una fatiga inútil.
Chao,
Nicolás Nobles
Juuichiketajin
=?iso-8859-1?Q?ant=F3nio?= pedro m. r. h. marques standing under a digital
clock reading "Wed, 08 Aug 2001 23:33:39 +0100", writing this in cursive I
could only dream to imitate:
>
>Well,
>
>The difference between the two is that _eSTAr_ refers to a STAte, while
>_ser_ refers to an attribute. In some cases the distinction may seem
>blurred, but it holds if you think well enough (one may be a better
>description, both being valid, or one may be more unapplicable, both
>being odd).
>It can well be that both a state or an attribute may be the matter, and
>that's where the transient/essential distinction works.
>
>ant=F3nio pedro r. marques
>www.terravista.pt/enseada/6172 /aon /espello
>
>
So why do Spanish speakers give the time as "son las tres y cuarto" (if memory
serves) rather than "est'a las tres y cuarto"?
I could NEVER figure that out!!!!
--
** JUUICHIKETAJIN **
Please delouse my e-mail address before replying.
Bill Hayles
>
>So why do Spanish speakers give the time as "son las tres y cuarto" (if memory
>serves) rather than "est'a las tres y cuarto"?
The "son" or "es" refers to the hours. "They (the hours) are three and
a quarter"
"tres (horas)" is plural, therefore there *are* three of them
"Es la una y media" - "una" is singular (and feminine because "hora" is
feminine)
Es mediodia o es medianoche - midday and midnight are singular.
¡Espero que sea verdadero!
--
Bill
Phil Dragoman
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote in
message ...
>"Phil Dragoman"
>> No soy artista, (pero btw soy pianista
>> y sé bien que la lengua de la música es realmente el italiano
>
>Espero que nuestros amigos americanos entiendan el español también...
>Me parece que lo más sincero que se dice en este newsgroup se escribe
>en el idioma castilliano.
Está muy apropiado así. Después de todo, Carlos V habló a Dios en
castellano, (y a mujeres en italiano -- eso es por qué el idioma de los
artes y del amor está el italiano!) ;-)
Pero está claro que hay ciertos norteamericanos de habla inglesa
(miembros de una cultura relativamente joven) que, debido a
ignorancia o per falta del sistema de enseñanza, no conocen
bien ni su propia historia (i.e. la del Occidente) ni sus tradiciones
artísticas. Tales personas aceptan cualquiera doctrina
non-occidental, creyendo que están de ese modo liberales,
cosmopolitas, admiradores de una cultura más fina. Pero el
Oriente es mucho más antiguo que el Occidente y sonríe
con tolerancie a su inocencia juvenil de ellos.
¿Y además de qué sirve una alma tal estética que pueda distinguir
entre un jarrón Ming y un vaso de noche, si no aprecia su propio
patrimonio?
>
>> en cuanto a mí
>> yo comprendo muy bien "fagotto"
>
>Estoy seguro que todos mis "enemigos virtuales" lo entienden también,
>es un problema de otra natura, si comprendes lo que digo...
>
>- quest'è lo come si chiama 'bassone', il
>> cazzo degli strumenti a vento in bosco
>
>Che diamine dici? Perdonami, forse "bassone" esiste in italiano, ma
>non lo si usa spesso.
Volevo dire soltanto che la parola inglese deriva dal italiano (bassone < basso).
Anche se non si usi spesso in inglese la parola "fagotto", abbiamo tuttavia
bisogno d'una parola italiana per designare lo strumento! Siamo
perduti "sans" l'italiano! :-)
>Ma cosa sarebbero questi "strumenti a vento in
>bosco"? "Woodwind"? Allora si dice "i legni".
Si - ma mi ricordo di avere veduto i termini 'strumenti a vento in
bosco (ottone)' nelle partiture di diverse sinfonie classicali.
Forse era una mala traduzione di 'instruments à vent en bois
(cuivre)'. O piuttosto non era che una espressione antica
oggigiorno caduta in disuso. Sai meglio di me. (E grazie
per la correzione)
>
>> BTW, tu hablas bastantes lenguas.
>
>Gracias. (Pero "tú" se escribe con acento).
No eres en lo más mínimo "disaccentato" ;-)
>
>> Está muy impresionante. Espero que
>> seas profesor de lenguas!
>
>Aún no, espero que enseñaré también, me gustan muchos las lenguas. Soy
>intérprete del inglés y del ruso, a veces doy leciones particulares,
>pero he terminado la universidad hace demasiado poco tiempo, en Italia
>tienes que esperar 5 años ante que obtenir el derecho de enseñar en la
>universidad, y no quireo trabajar en una escuela de otro tipo.
>
Saludos,
Phil
Nicola Nobili
> Está muy apropiado así. Después de todo, Carlos V habló a Dios en
> castellano, (y a mujeres en italiano -- eso es por qué el idioma de los
> artes y del amor está el italiano!) ;-)
Y Lomonosov, el hombre que fundó la Universidad de Moscú, dijo: "Sería
mejor hablar francés con los amigos, alemán con los enemigos, inglés con los
diplomáticos, español con Dios, italiano con las mujeres". Después,
desgraciadamente, terminó su gracioso comentario así: "el ruso va siempre
bien, porque es tan agradable como el francés, tan duro como el alemán, tan
concreto como el inglés, tan solemne como el español y tan soave como el
italiano".
> ¿Y además de qué sirve una alma tal estética que pueda distinguir
> entre un jarrón Ming y un vaso de noche, si no aprecia su propio
> patrimonio?
Me alegro que en estos misteriosos y peligrosos lugares virtuales hay
gente dotada de fineza y sabiduría tan grande. A veces me parece que las
"barreras" de Internet induzcan a alguién a comportarse con grande
agresividad.
> Volevo dire soltanto che la parola inglese deriva dal italiano (bassone <
basso).
> Anche se non si usi spesso in inglese la parola "fagotto", abbiamo
tuttavia
> bisogno d'una parola italiana per designare lo strumento! Siamo
> perduti "sans" l'italiano! :-)
Adesso capisco meglio, e complimenti per l'eleganza del tuo italiano. A
parte un paio di calchi dallo spagnolo (comprensibili, visto che stiamo
scrivendo in spagnolo, e anche io temo di commettere svariati calchi
dall'italiano in questi messaggi), è tutto piacevolmente comprensibile.
> Si
Mi odieresti se ti dicessi che "sí" richiede l'accento? :-)
- ma mi ricordo di avere veduto i termini 'strumenti a vento in
> bosco (ottone)' nelle partiture di diverse sinfonie classicali.
> Forse era una mala traduzione di 'instruments à vent en bois
> (cuivre)'. O piuttosto non era che una espressione antica
> oggigiorno caduta in disuso. Sai meglio di me.
No, non credo di saperlo meglio di te. Se si tratta di un'espressione
arcaica, non sono in grado di dirlo, non sono un musicologo. Di certo non si
dice piú, e mi sembra tanto un calco dal francese, come hai giustamente
suggerito. (Per inciso, permettimi di dire che le sinfonie devono essere
"classiche").
> >Gracias. (Pero "tú" se escribe con acento).
>
> No eres en lo más mínimo "disaccentato" ;-)
Ah, ésta es una historia muy larga, que comenzó en otros grupos de
discusión de lingüística en italiano. Yo uso a menudo acentos de varios
tipos en italiano, aún cuando no es necesario. Ya que usaba este account de
la oficina, donde la ordenadora era vieja como un dinosaurio y no
visualizaba los diacríticos, pensé usar la expresión "dai labirintici
meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata" cuando escribo de la oficina o de la
biblioteca. Los que me conocen en it.cultura.linguistica comprenden bien la
broma.
Juuichiketajin
standing under a digital clock reading "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:21:19 +0200",
>
>
>>
>>So why do Spanish speakers give the time as "son las tres y cuarto" (if
memory
>>serves) rather than "est'a las tres y cuarto"?
>
>The "son" or "es" refers to the hours. "They (the hours) are three and
>a quarter"
>
>"tres (horas)" is plural, therefore there *are* three of them
>
>"Es la una y media" - "una" is singular (and feminine because "hora" is
>feminine)
Yes, but since hours *change*, why use "ser" rather than "estar"??
>
>Es mediodia o es medianoche - midday and midnight are singular.
>
>ĄEspero que sea verdadero!
>
>--
>
>Bill
--
Bill Hayles
>>"Es la una y media" - "una" is singular (and feminine because "hora" is
>>feminine)
>
>Yes, but since hours *change*, why use "ser" rather than "estar"??
You'll need to ask someone with a greater depth of knowledge than me.
See other parts of this thread.
--
Bill
Lloyd Zusman
The difference between "ser" and "estar" is often taught to us English
speakers as being the difference between talking about something that
doesn't change ("ser") versus something that changes ("estar").
Unfortunately, this "rule" is not correct, and it often leads to
confusion and errors.
A better way to think of it is this:
Originally, the verb "estar" came from the Latin verb "stare", which
means "to stand". In a very general sense, we use "estar" to answer
the question "How/where does someone/something stand?" In other words,
"What is the location of someone/something?", and "What is the 'state'
of someone/something?" In fact, the word "state" also derives from
the Latin verb "stare". So does the word "status".
Normally, we use "estar" when we're talking about the "howness" or
"whereness" of something, and we use "ser" we're dealing with
"whatness".
For example, the question "How are you?" is "¿Cómo está?" (literally,
in Latin, "How do you stand?") The question "What is it?" is "¿Qué
es?" The question "Where is it?" is "¿Dónde está?" (i.e., "Where
does it stand?")
Because "estar" derives from a verb meaning to "stand", this is the
reason that we use it to talk about the location of things, even
things that are rather permanently situated. For example, we say
"Nueva York está cerca de Hoboken", not "Nueva York *es cerca de
Hoboken".
And because "estar" talks about the state or status of
someone/something, we say "El está muerto" and not "El *es muerto",
even though death is certainly quite permanent.
In summary, then, it's good to completely forget the "rule" that says
that "ser" is used for un-changing things, and "estar" is used for
changing and changeable things. A much better rule is this:
* "Ser" is used to talk about "whatness".
* "Estar" is used to talk about "howness" and "whereness".
And always remember that the origin of "estar" means "to stand", and
that this also extends to the related meanings of "state", "status",
etc., since "estar", "state", and "status" all derive from the Latin
verb "stare".
And now back to your original question:
>>Yes, but since hours *change*, why use "ser" rather than "estar"??
It's because in Spanish, when we say what time it is, we actually are
answering the question "What hour is it?" ("¿Qué hora es?"). And
since we're answering the question "What?", we use "ser", since "ser"
deals with "whatness".
I was totally confused about "ser" and "estar" until I stumbled across
a very useful little book which cleared the whole thing up for me.
It's entitled "Spanish Verbs: Ser and Estar. Key to Mastering the
Language" by Juan Serrano and Susan Serrano. It's part of the
Hippocrene Language Studies series published by Hippocrene Books, New
York. Mine is the second edition, 1996, ISBN 0-7818-0024-2.
The first half of this book contains an excellent explanation of the
usage of "ser" and "estar". The second half has some stories that
make frequent use of "ser" and "estar", and I didn't find those to be
as useful ... however, YMMV. But at any rate, the clear explanations
of "ser" and "estar" in the first half more than justify the $8.95
that I paid for the book. I highly recommend it to English speakers
who want to un-confuse themselves about "ser" and "estar".
EQELA
--
Lloyd Zusman
l...@asfast.com
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
ishingly, conclude with reference to a Linguistic question.
In article <9l67b9$7ge14$1...@ID-60297.news.dfncis.de>,
Phil Dragoman <phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>
>Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote in
>message ...
>>"Phil Dragoman"
>>> No soy artista, (pero btw soy pianista
>>> y sé bien que la lengua de la música es realmente el italiano
>>
>>Espero que nuestros amigos americanos entiendan el español también...
>>Me parece que lo más sincero que se dice en este newsgroup se escribe
>>en el idioma castilliano.
Yo soy un hombre sincero!
>Está muy apropiado así. Después de todo, Carlos V habló a Dios en
>castellano, (y a mujeres en italiano -- eso es por qué el idioma de los
>artes y del amor está el italiano!) ;-)
>
>Pero está claro que hay ciertos norteamericanos de habla inglesa
>(miembros de una cultura relativamente joven) que, debido a
>ignorancia o per falta del sistema de enseñanza, no conocen
>bien ni su propia historia (i.e. la del Occidente) ni sus tradiciones
>artísticas. Tales personas aceptan cualquiera doctrina
>non-occidental, creyendo que están de ese modo liberales,
>cosmopolitas, admiradores de una cultura más fina. Pero el
>Oriente es mucho más antiguo que el Occidente y sonríe
>con tolerancie a su inocencia juvenil de ellos.
Of all the countless anti-American slams I've seen on Usenet, this has got
to be the first time I've seen anyone accuse us of being *more* interested
in foreign cultures than our own.
I had a quality, conversative indoc^H^H^H^H^Heducation in my "own heri-
tage". Finally, in college, I was able to balance it with courses in the
culture of the other five-sixths of the planet. Guess what? I happen to
like some of the stuff they produced as much, if not more, than what my
countrymen and their European predecessors came up with.
Now I find that makes me an ignorant knee-jerk pseudo-liberal. Who knew?
Ship me off to Great Books Boot Camp!
>¿Y además de qué sirve una alma tal estética que pueda distinguir
>entre un jarrón Ming y un vaso de noche, si no aprecia su propio
>patrimonio?
So what is the "proper patrimony" of an English-speaking American, Phil?
Is it the same no matter whether that person's surname is "Zimmermann",
"Gennaro", "Santana", or "Kim"? Whether they grew up in Honolulu, Miami,
NYC, or Silver Springs?
>>> en cuanto a mí
>>> yo comprendo muy bien "fagotto"
>>
>>Estoy seguro que todos mis "enemigos virtuales" lo entienden también,
>>es un problema de otra natura, si comprendes lo que digo...
>>
>>- quest'è lo come si chiama 'bassone', il
>>> cazzo degli strumenti a vento in bosco
>>
>>Che diamine dici? Perdonami, forse "bassone" esiste in italiano, ma
>>non lo si usa spesso.
>
>Volevo dire soltanto che la parola inglese deriva dal italiano (bassone
>< basso).
>Anche se non si usi spesso in inglese la parola "fagotto", abbiamo tuttavia
>bisogno d'una parola italiana per designare lo strumento! Siamo
>perduti "sans" l'italiano! :-)
Do you have a cite for that? The OED prefers a purely French etymology.
[snip]
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Nicola Nobili
> >>Espero que nuestros amigos americanos entiendan el español también...
> >>Me parece que lo más sincero que se dice en este newsgroup se escribe
> >>en el idioma castilliano.
>
> Yo soy un hombre sincero!
Cuando escribes en español. Cuando escribes en tu lengua, no lo eres
siempre.
> So what is the "proper patrimony" of an English-speaking American, Phil?
> Is it the same no matter whether that person's surname is "Zimmermann",
> "Gennaro", "Santana", or "Kim"? Whether they grew up in Honolulu, Miami,
> NYC, or Silver Springs?
¡Qué lástima! Éste discurso aplasta la idea misma de "cultura" y de
"identidad". Los Estados Unidos tienen gente de todas razas y orígenes, pero
las raíces culturales del País son claramente europeas. Piensa en la lengua,
en la arquitectura, en las leyes... No digo que otras culturas son peores,
¡por el amor de Dios!, pero faltar interés por su origen y aceptar todo en
la misma manera no es una signal de riqueza cultural: es ausencia de valores
culturales.
Chao,
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>
>> >>Espero que nuestros amigos americanos entiendan el español también...
>> >>Me parece que lo más sincero que se dice en este newsgroup se escribe
>> >>en el idioma castilliano.
>>
>> Yo soy un hombre sincero!
>
> Cuando escribes en español. Cuando escribes en tu lengua, no lo eres
>siempre.
In that case, I'll stick to my language.
>> So what is the "proper patrimony" of an English-speaking American, Phil?
>> Is it the same no matter whether that person's surname is "Zimmermann",
>> "Gennaro", "Santana", or "Kim"? Whether they grew up in Honolulu, Miami,
>> NYC, or Silver Springs?
>
> ¡Qué lástima! Éste discurso aplasta la idea misma de "cultura" y de
>"identidad".
I'm just trying to understand Mr Dragoman's use of <patrimonio>. What is
the <proprio patrimonio> of an <issei>? Why should it include studying
Italian Renaissance art and not Tokugawa printmaking?
>Los Estados Unidos tienen gente de todas razas y orígenes, pero
>las raíces culturales del País son claramente europeas. Piensa en la lengua,
*La* lengua? It's news to me that the USA has only one. I suppose you
mean the English we speak, with its numerous native American words.
>en la arquitectura,
Which owes *nothing* to non-European models?
>en las leyes...
...which are based firmly in the English common law tradition. I guess
this means we're off the hook when it comes to studying Roman law and its
Catholic cousin, canon law? After all, they're not part of our patrimony.
(Or are they, for those of us who are Catholics?)
>No digo que otras culturas son peores,
>¡por el amor de Dios!, pero faltar interés por su origen y aceptar todo en
>la misma manera no es una signal de riqueza cultural: es ausencia de valores
>culturales.
Could you, just for a moment, entertain the notion that there is a legit-
imate position *between* the extremes of chauvinist cultural fundamental-
ism and indiscriminate cultural relativism? (I'd next ask you to make the
cognitive leap that, just maybe, some of the posters in this group occupy
that position, but I don't want to push you too far too fast.)
Brian M. Scott
<phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote in
>message ...
>>"Phil Dragoman"
>>> No soy artista, (pero btw soy pianista
>>> y sé bien que la lengua de la música es realmente el italiano
>>Espero que nuestros amigos americanos entiendan el español también...
>>Me parece que lo más sincero que se dice en este newsgroup se escribe
>>en el idioma castilliano.
Aw, aren't they sweet!
[...]
>Pero está claro que hay ciertos norteamericanos de habla inglesa
>(miembros de una cultura relativamente joven) que, debido a
>ignorancia o per falta del sistema de enseñanza, no conocen
>bien ni su propia historia (i.e. la del Occidente) ni sus tradiciones
>artísticas.
I can't imagine who they could be. Certainly my formal education was
mostly in the Western tradition. My musical tastes are very Western,
and my knowledge of Eastern literatures is regrettably slight.
> Tales personas aceptan cualquiera doctrina
>non-occidental, creyendo que están de ese modo liberales,
>cosmopolitas, admiradores de una cultura más fina. Pero el
>Oriente es mucho más antiguo que el Occidente y sonríe
>con tolerancie a su inocencia juvenil de ellos.
My, you *do* like your stereotypes, don't you?
>¿Y además de qué sirve una alma tal estética que pueda distinguir
>entre un jarrón Ming y un vaso de noche, si no aprecia su propio
>patrimonio?
More figments of your imagination? I don't see the slightest evidence
that anyone involved in this discussion fails to appreciate Western
artistic culture. (Mind you, I think that you have a very narrow view
of what constitutes one's 'proprio patrimonio' in a diverse society,
but that's your loss, not mine.)
[...]
BMS
Phil Dragoman
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote in message ...
>In which we revert to the language of my Proper Patrimony and, much aston-
>ishingly, conclude with reference to a Linguistic question.
>
>In article <9l67b9$7ge14$1...@ID-60297.news.dfncis.de>,
>Phil Dragoman <phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>>
>>Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote in
>>message ...
>>>"Phil Dragoman"
>>>> No soy artista, (pero btw soy pianista
>>>> y sé bien que la lengua de la música es realmente el italiano
>>>
>>>Espero que nuestros amigos americanos entiendan el español también...
>>>Me parece que lo más sincero que se dice en este newsgroup se escribe
>>>en el idioma castilliano.
>
>Yo soy un hombre sincero!
De donde crece la palma.
Y antés de morirme quiero
Echar mis versos del alma.
Everybody now.....
Guantanamera! Guajira Guantanamera!
Guantanameeeeeeeeeera!
That damn song is going to be going through my head for the next week.
Mmm, maybe I'll get out the old 45 of "Girl from Ipanema" and practice
my Portuguese. ;-)
>
>>Está muy apropiado así. Después de todo, Carlos V habló a Dios en
>>castellano, (y a mujeres en italiano -- eso es por qué el idioma de los
>>artes y del amor está el italiano!) ;-)
>>
>>Pero está claro que hay ciertos norteamericanos de habla inglesa
>>(miembros de una cultura relativamente joven) que, debido a
>>ignorancia o per falta del sistema de enseñanza, no conocen
>>bien ni su propia historia (i.e. la del Occidente) ni sus tradiciones
>>artísticas. Tales personas aceptan cualquiera doctrina
>>non-occidental, creyendo que están de ese modo liberales,
>>cosmopolitas, admiradores de una cultura más fina. Pero el
>>Oriente es mucho más antiguo que el Occidente y sonríe
>>con tolerancie a su inocencia juvenil de ellos.
>
>Of all the countless anti-American slams I've seen on Usenet, this has got
>to be the first time I've seen anyone accuse us of being *more* interested
>in foreign cultures than our own.
Us? Was I talking about _you_? Didn't they teach you in the army
not to volunteer?
Besides, it's the poor Italians who are getting slammed just because
there's so much art there. Rank jealousy, I say. I am not Italian,
(by descent, that is, but by intellectual and artistic heritage I proudly
claim my citizenship! Italia, ti voiu ben assaje (1)) but I doubt that
there is anywhere in the world you could go to find not only nifty art
but also great music, incredible wines and gorgeous women. I'd
mention the food but I am on a diet and don't want to get hungry.
Oh, and we can throw in a truckload or two of some halfway decent
literature from Parmenides to Belli as well. OK, so maybe they
have second rate football teams. :-)
Just to prove my point, if you had no money, but nevertheless had
managed to develop your sense of aesthetics to a state of sublime
raffinement, and someone offered you the money to travel (2) to
ONE country of the world to gawk at the art, where would you go?
(For purposes of this thought experiment, forget the music, wine,
literature and women. Hell, you can find beautiful women anywhere.
Well, almost....)
>
>I had a quality, conversative indoc^H^H^H^H^Heducation in my "own heri-
>tage". Finally, in college, I was able to balance it with courses in the
>culture of the other five-sixths of the planet. Guess what? I happen to
>like some of the stuff they produced as much, if not more, than what my
>countrymen and their European predecessors came up with.
Me too.
Be careful, your backspaces are showing. Just be thankful this is a
text-only newsgroup.
>
>Now I find that makes me an ignorant knee-jerk pseudo-liberal. Who knew?
>Ship me off to Great Books Boot Camp!
What means this "knee-jerk"? ;-)
I did that boot camp -- it's hell. You have to crawl on your belly through dirty
scrolls and smelly parchments while a bunch of prissy librarians fling
leather-bound copies of "In Praise of Folly" only three inches above your head.
>
>>¿Y además de qué sirve una alma tal estética que pueda distinguir
>>entre un jarrón Ming y un vaso de noche, si no aprecia su propio
>>patrimonio?
>
>So what is the "proper patrimony"
"own patrimony". I never prescribe either patrimony or matrimony for
anyone I don't know.
>of an English-speaking American, Phil?
>Is it the same no matter whether that person's surname is "Zimmermann",
>"Gennaro", "Santana", or "Kim"? Whether they grew up in Honolulu, Miami,
>NYC, or Silver Springs?
I don't know. Ask Tom Jefferson. There'd better be some commonality or
we're all in big trouble. For a start, the other five-sixths of the planet did
nothing for representative government, freedom of religion, freedom of
speech and some other stuff. Besides, Tom was a Renaissance man.
The Renaissance started in Italy. QED. (BTW, "QED" is ancient Italian,
'quale era dimenticando' in the sermo circumforensis).
>>>Che diamine dici? Perdonami, forse "bassone" esiste in italiano, ma
>>>non lo si usa spesso.
>>
>>Volevo dire soltanto che la parola inglese deriva dal italiano (bassone
>>< basso).
>>Anche se non si usi spesso in inglese la parola "fagotto", abbiamo tuttavia
>>bisogno d'una parola italiana per designare lo strumento! Siamo
>>perduti "sans" l'italiano! :-)
>
>Do you have a cite for that? The OED prefers a purely French etymology.
For "sans"? I think they're right. For 'bassone' try Webster's. We're much
more cosmopolitan than the Brits. ;-)
It's in the same class as pantaloon (< pantalone), macaroon (< macarone),
balloon (< ballone), festoon (< festone), raccoon (< raccone), spittoon
(< spittone).
I might be going out on a limb on those last too. I say 'possum' and 'crachoir'
myself. How come the OED has no puréed French etymology like 'pissoon'?
I hate having to constantly ask for the mictorium.
Regards,
Phil
Footnotes:
(1) I'm trying to learn Napuletano. I can sing "Fenesta ca lucive". Honesty
requires I confess to using the word "sing" in its looser classical sense.
(2) This is for illustrative purposes only and should not be construed as
an offer of viaticum.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
[crapo deletado]
>Guantanamera! Guajira Guantanamera!
>Guantanameeeeeeeeeera!
>
>That damn song is going to be going through my head for the next week.
I dare say you deserve it!
>Mmm, maybe I'll get out the old 45 of "Girl from Ipanema" and practice
>my Portuguese. ;-)
Never did manage to learn that. I know the melody, I see the words, and
yet they don't seem to fit together. I blame the syncopation. (I seem to
remember something from my patrimony about the syncopation being visited
upon the children or something.)
>>>Pero está claro que hay ciertos norteamericanos de habla inglesa
>>>(miembros de una cultura relativamente joven) que, debido a
>>>ignorancia o per falta del sistema de enseñanza, no conocen
>>>bien ni su propia historia (i.e. la del Occidente) ni sus tradiciones
>>>artísticas. Tales personas aceptan cualquiera doctrina
>>>non-occidental, creyendo que están de ese modo liberales,
>>>cosmopolitas, admiradores de una cultura más fina. Pero el
>>>Oriente es mucho más antiguo que el Occidente y sonríe
>>>con tolerancie a su inocencia juvenil de ellos.
>>
>>Of all the countless anti-American slams I've seen on Usenet, this has got
>>to be the first time I've seen anyone accuse us of being *more* interested
>>in foreign cultures than our own.
>
>Us? Was I talking about _you_? Didn't they teach you in the army
>not to volunteer?
I ain't volunteerin', I'm just showing a little solidarity with the most
maligned nationality on the 'Net. I hearby forego any claim to represen-
tativeness.
>Besides, it's the poor Italians who are getting slammed just because
>there's so much art there.
Hey, y'know what would be nifty in this age of globe-trotting and crashing
birthrates?
Move the remaining 10% of the world's art to Italy. Turn the whole thing
into an open-air museum. The declining, greying population can all get
cushy jobs as art curators and security guards. Buy your pass at the
border, good for viewing all the world's art!
>Rank jealousy, I say. I am not Italian,
>(by descent, that is, but by intellectual and artistic heritage I proudly
>claim my citizenship! Italia, ti voiu ben assaje (1)) but I doubt that
>there is anywhere in the world you could go to find not only nifty art
>but also great music, incredible wines and gorgeous women. I'd
>mention the food but I am on a diet and don't want to get hungry.
>Oh, and we can throw in a truckload or two of some halfway decent
>literature from Parmenides to Belli as well. OK, so maybe they
>have second rate football teams. :-)
The art's the only thing you *really* have to go there for. Everything
else you can get mail order.
>Just to prove my point, if you had no money, but nevertheless had
>managed to develop your sense of aesthetics to a state of sublime
>raffinement, and someone offered you the money to travel (2) to
>ONE country of the world to gawk at the art, where would you go?
>(For purposes of this thought experiment, forget the music, wine,
>literature and women. Hell, you can find beautiful women anywhere.
>Well, almost....)
China. After all, I've already been to Italy. Because of the distances
involved, I'd get more funds than I would for a simple hop across the
Atlantic and jaunt around the boot.
>>Now I find that makes me an ignorant knee-jerk pseudo-liberal. Who knew?
>>Ship me off to Great Books Boot Camp!
>
>What means this "knee-jerk"? ;-)
I'm sorry--did that get bleeped for our British readers?
>I did that boot camp -- it's hell. You have to crawl on your belly
>through dirty
>scrolls and smelly parchments while a bunch of prissy librarians fling
>leather-bound copies of "In Praise of Folly" only three inches above your head.
Believe it or not, I almost signed up anyway. Somewhere, there is a
half-completed application to St. John's College with my name on it.
>>>¿Y además de qué sirve una alma tal estética que pueda distinguir
>>>entre un jarrón Ming y un vaso de noche, si no aprecia su propio
>>>patrimonio?
>>
>>So what is the "proper patrimony"
>
>"own patrimony".
proper A. adj. I. 1. Belonging to oneself or itself; (one's or its) own;
owned as property;[...]
(No prizes for guessing that limey source.)
>>of an English-speaking American, Phil?
>>Is it the same no matter whether that person's surname is "Zimmermann",
>>"Gennaro", "Santana", or "Kim"? Whether they grew up in Honolulu, Miami,
>>NYC, or Silver Springs?
>
>I don't know. Ask Tom Jefferson.
I would, but he doesn't return my calls. Must be stuck up.
>There'd better be some commonality or
>we're all in big trouble. For a start, the other five-sixths of the planet did
>nothing for representative government, freedom of religion, freedom of
>speech and some other stuff.
Those poor, benighted Hodenosaunee! All this time they thought they were
practicing democracy and they were really just as bad as the rest of the
world!
>>Do you have a cite for that? The OED prefers a purely French etymology.
>
>For "sans"? I think they're right. For 'bassone' try Webster's.
>We're much more cosmopolitan than the Brits. ;-)
Yes, but, if it comes to a duel, I know which one I'd rather have by my
side.
>It's in the same class as pantaloon (< pantalone), macaroon (< macarone),
>balloon (< ballone), festoon (< festone), raccoon (< raccone), spittoon
>(< spittone).
>
>I might be going out on a limb on those last too. I say 'possum' and
>'crachoir' myself.
If'm you cain't tell a raccoon from a 'possum, I'm beginning to wonder if
you ain't just takin' this Italiano Contrefatto act a bit too far.
>How come the OED has no puréed French etymology like 'pissoon'?
>I hate having to constantly ask for the mictorium.
Try asking for a <matoon> instead next time.
Dkcsac
>>feminine)
>
>Yes, but since hours *change*, why use "ser" rather than "estar"??
>
Time doesn't change, our temporal position relative to it does. 2:00 PM is
always 2:00 PM, Wednesday is always Wednesday, and February is always February
(except when it's Febuary).
Peter T. Daniels
> That damn song is going to be going through my head for the next week.
> Mmm, maybe I'll get out the old 45 of "Girl from Ipanema" and practice
> my Portuguese. ;-)
She was in the news yesterday -- it seems Jobim's and his coauthor's
estates are suing her for calling her souvenir shop "Girl from Ipanema"
-- even though the particular lady in question was fully acknowledged as
the inspiration for the song, and never earned a penny or centavo or
whatever for it.
She's 57, and still tall and tan and lovely, NPR said.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Radovan Garabik
: Some questions I have:
: 3. how do I do accented characters (my software is Linux, KDE Konsole
: and slrn)?
xkbsel 'xfree86(es)'
and then investigate keys ; ' [ ] and following letter
you should probably do export LANG=es_ES before running KDE
(btw KDE does not contain keyboard switching applet?
I seem to recall I read about it somewhere, but since I
do not use KDE I know nothing more)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ fmph . uniba . sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Nicola Nobili
> I'm just trying to understand Mr Dragoman's use of <patrimonio>.
Me parece muy claro. Prueba con un buen diccionario de la lengua
española.
> Why should it include studying
> Italian Renaissance art and not Tokugawa printmaking?
Nadie ha dicho que no es "necesario" o "importante" estudiar ambos. Pero
unos elementos pertenecen a la cultura de una población, otros no. No es un
juicio de valor, es sencillamente una constatación.
> >Los Estados Unidos tienen gente de todas razas y orígenes, pero
> >las raíces culturales del País son claramente europeas. Piensa en la
lengua,
>
> *La* lengua? It's news to me that the USA has only one.
Sería una noticia por mi si tú comprenderas lo que digo. En este caso,
todavía, tienes una buena justificación, ya que no estoy hablando en tu
lengua...
Cada País en el mundo tiene más que una lengua. Pero no todas tienen la
misma importancia. Muchas son lenguas de algunos individuos que viven en
aquel estado, tienen importancia para ellos, no para toda la nación. En los
Estados Unidos se hablan francés, alemán, húngaro, chino... pero estos
idiomas son características de los pequeños grupos de personas que los
hablan. LA lengua, la única oficial, la única que se usa en la Costitución,
la que te permite de hacer carrera, etc. es el inglés. Lo además es una
patética tentativa de satisfacer a todos.
> >en la arquitectura,
>
> Which owes *nothing* to non-European models?
Otra vez, no comprendes. Las raíces de la arquitectura norteamericanas
son europeas. Otras naciones han dado una contribución, pero pensar que cada
contribución es la misma, que sea un ladrillo, un palacio o cien ciudades,
es un ejemplo de la peor "corrección política". No digo que la arquitectura
de otros continentes es peor de la europea, pero si visitas los países
europeos, verás muchas más semejanzas con América de las que puedes notar
entre América y Asia o África.
> >en las leyes...
>
> ...which are based firmly in the English common law tradition. I guess
> this means we're off the hook when it comes to studying Roman law and its
> Catholic cousin, canon law?
Te gusta mucho cambiar argumento, ¿verdad? No he hablado de la ley
romana o del derecho canónico. He hablado de "raíces europeas". Como has
decho, las leyes estadounitenses se basan sobre la "common law" inglés.
Pues, tienen raíces "europeas", como dije yo.
> After all, they're not part of our patrimony.
Correcto. No es difícil, ¿no eres de acuerdo?
> Could you, just for a moment, entertain the notion that there is a legit-
> imate position *between* the extremes of chauvinist cultural fundamental-
> ism and indiscriminate cultural relativism?
Es la posición que me pareces incapaz de comrpender. Cada vez que pruebo
hablar de ésto, me atacas con calumnias y dices que yo he afirmado lo
contrario de lo que dije.
Buenas noches,
Nicola Nobili
> Move the remaining 10% of the world's art to Italy. Turn the whole thing
> into an open-air museum.
It already is...
> The art's the only thing you *really* have to go there for. Everything
> else you can get mail order.
¿Qué dices de la mar? ¿De los Alpes? ¿De los tortellini? (Los que se
comen afueras de Italia no son la misma cosa, no importa si han inventado el
avión).
> >Just to prove my point, if you had no money, but nevertheless had
> >managed to develop your sense of aesthetics to a state of sublime
> >raffinement, and someone offered you the money to travel (2) to
> >ONE country of the world to gawk at the art, where would you go?
> China.
Increíble. Estamos de acuerdo. Es la primera vez, y tengo miedo que sará
la última...
Chao,
Nicola Nobili
> De donde crece la palma.
> Y antés de morirme quiero
> Echar mis versos del alma.
Perdóname, no es mi intención corregirte cada vez. Estoy curioso de
saber si "antés" es la pronunciación de esta canción (puede ser). En
castellano, se dice "antes".
> I am not Italian,
> (by descent, that is, but by intellectual and artistic heritage I proudly
> claim my citizenship!
No, keep your citizenship. Having an Italian passport is not always
convenient when you find yourself in a foreign airport or consulate, believe
me...
> Italia, ti voiu ben assaje (1))
How interesting! You're the first foreigner I've ever met who's studying
Neapolitan! (Which I absolutely can't understand).
Ma quella trascrizione, dove l'hai trovata? Non so dirti se sia giusta o
sbagliata, però di solito ho visto "te vojjo bbene assaje". O forse non
esiste una vera e propria codificazione del napoletano, per cui si possono
trovare versioni leggermente diverse?
> I'd
> mention the food but I am on a diet and don't want to get hungry.
I'm a vegetarian. Perhaps I could show you some gorgeous vegetarian
Italian dishes which I'm sure will perfectly meet your dietary requirements.
> Oh, and we can throw in a truckload or two of some halfway decent
> literature from Parmenides to Belli as well.
Wasn't Parmenide a philosopher? (Tra parentesi, complimenti per aver
nominato Belli. Pochissimi lo conoscono, qui in Italia, ma ritengo che sia
uno dei piú grandi poeti degli ultimi cinquecento anni).
> OK, so maybe they
> have second rate football teams.
Do you mean American football or soccer? Please respect our soccer
national team! We're second only to the Brasilians.
> (BTW, "QED" is ancient Italian,
> 'quale era dimenticando' in the sermo circumforensis).
Really? I must admit you've just taught me something...
> It's in the same class as pantaloon (< pantalone), macaroon (< macarone),
I'll be extremely picky here. "macarone" and "macaroon" come from
Venetian rather than Italian. In Italian we have "maccherone", with double
"c" and and a stressed "e" before an "r" (a common phonetic phenomenon).
Venetian doesn't have double consonants and ignores the latter phenomenon,
that's why it could export "macaroni" and not "maccheroni" (and the alike)
to England.
Bye,
Nicola Nobili
> Aw, aren't they sweet!
E irónicos también. Por fin nos comprendes :-)
> (Mind you, I think that you have a very narrow view
> of what constitutes one's 'proprio patrimonio'
¿En qué lengua estás escribiendo?
Brian M. Scott
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
[...]
> I'll be extremely picky here. "macarone" and "macaroon" come from
>Venetian rather than Italian. In Italian we have "maccherone", with double
>"c" and and a stressed "e" before an "r" (a common phonetic phenomenon).
>Venetian doesn't have double consonants and ignores the latter phenomenon,
>that's why it could export "macaroni" and not "maccheroni" (and the alike)
>to England.
The earliest English citations are for <maccaroni>; it was only later
that the second <c> was dropped. This is from Italian <maccaroni>
(the OED cites Florio 1598), an earlier form of <maccheroni> (Florio
1611).
Brian
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>
>> I'm just trying to understand Mr Dragoman's use of <patrimonio>.
>
> Me parece muy claro. Prueba con un buen diccionario de la lengua
>española.
So you're like hoovph: You think that any communication difficulty can be
solved by recourse to a "good" dictionary.
I didn't say I didn't know the *definition* of <patrimonio>, I said I
didn't understand Mr Dragoman's *use* of it. The word has several mean-
ings--possible English translations include "heritage" and "birthright" as
well as "patrimony"--and a dictionary can't specify every nuance of each.
You accuse me of getting bogged down in American-style identity politics,
but the fact is that the heritage of all Americans is not the same. It's
taken us a long time to recognise this fact and even longer to work out
the implications.
Phil asked what ties us together. Well, he (and anyone else interested)
should check out:
<http://www.zompist.com/amercult.html>
(Maybe one of our Italian readers could even attempt an Italian version?)
Note what is and isn't mentioned: There's a lot about a common political
culture and social assumptions, not a lot about common artistic culture
and aesthetic criteria. I don't think you can easily get a consensus from
Americans as to what's the "best" or "most important" art. And that is
probably a good thing.
>> Why should it include studying
>> Italian Renaissance art and not Tokugawa printmaking?
>
> Nadie ha dicho que no es "necesario" o "importante" estudiar ambos. Pero
>unos elementos pertenecen a la cultura de una población, otros no. No es un
>juicio de valor, es sencillamente una constatación.
This is backtracking, plain and simple. Go back to the "Colours/Art"
thread and review your comments about people who showed a great deal of
interest in the latter and little or none in the former.
>> >Los Estados Unidos tienen gente de todas razas y orígenes, pero
>> >las raíces culturales del País son claramente europeas. Piensa en la
>lengua,
>>
>> *La* lengua? It's news to me that the USA has only one.
>
> Sería una noticia por mi si tú comprenderas lo que digo. En este caso,
>todavía, tienes una buena justificación, ya que no estoy hablando en tu
>lengua...
Again, it's like Mark says: If I disagree, you assume I don't understand
you. Esta seguro que si que entiendo tus palabras. No obstante, nos no
pondremos nunca de acuerdo, porque divergen en tanto grado nuestros puntos
de partida.
> Cada País en el mundo tiene más que una lengua. Pero no todas tienen la
>misma importancia. Muchas son lenguas de algunos individuos que viven en
>aquel estado, tienen importancia para ellos, no para toda la nación. En los
>Estados Unidos se hablan francés, alemán, húngaro, chino... pero estos
>idiomas son características de los pequeños grupos de personas que los
>hablan. LA lengua, la única oficial,
The United States has never had an official language.
>la única que se usa en la Costitución,
Sure there's no Latin in there?
>la que te permite de hacer carrera,
This is simply false. Yes, your career choices are more limited if you do
not speak English, but they're far from nonexistent. I once knew a Korean
*journalist* who exercised his profession in Chicago without the benefit
of fluent English.
>etc. es el inglés. Lo además es una patética tentativa de satisfacer a
>todos.
No, it's a simple statement of fact. Have a look sometime at the results
of the latest survey of home languages in the USA (conducted about the
same time as, but independent from, the most recent census) if you don't
believe.
(Though why should you need to? I thought you said you believed most of
what you read here. Don't you trust me? No crees que sea un hombre
sincero? Aunque escribie lo susodicho en espan~ol?)
>> >en las leyes...
>>
>> ...which are based firmly in the English common law tradition. I guess
>> this means we're off the hook when it comes to studying Roman law and its
>> Catholic cousin, canon law?
>
> Te gusta mucho cambiar argumento, ¿verdad?
I'm not changing my argument, I'm building it. Stay with me...
>No he hablado de la ley
>romana o del derecho canónico. He hablado de "raíces europeas". Como has
>decho, las leyes estadounitenses se basan sobre la "common law" inglés.
>Pues, tienen raíces "europeas", como dije yo.
>
>> After all, they're not part of our patrimony.
>
> Correcto. No es difícil, ¿no eres de acuerdo?
No, I'm not. I think, for instance, that the heritage of a Catholic Amer-
ican is different from that of a Protestant American or a Muslim American.
Canon law is a mystifying thing to most Catholics; it's absolutely baffl-
ing to most American non-Catholics, who simply have no exposure to the
legal system it's based on.
It behooves Americans to know something of all these systems of religi-
ous law since it helps them to understand their neighbours. However, it's
only *necessary* to the extant that religious law is an important force in
their lives. For a member of a Catholic religious order, knowledge of
canon law is arguably *more* important than knowledge of common law since
this is the system with the most impact on her life.
Similarly with the other things you mention. It behooves an art student
to know something of the history of Italian renaissance art, but it's only
*necessary* to the extant that they attempt to work within (or explode)
those models. There's simply too much art history for anyone's knowledge
of it to be encyclopaedic. Yet you make is sound like, if someone doesn't
use dozens of Italian technical terms, they have no claim to be educated
about art, while ignorance of entire realms of the world's production is
perfectly excusable.
>> Could you, just for a moment, entertain the notion that there is a legit-
>> imate position *between* the extremes of chauvinist cultural fundamental-
>> ism and indiscriminate cultural relativism?
>
> Es la posición que me pareces incapaz de comrpender. Cada vez que pruebo
>hablar de ésto, me atacas con calumnias y dices que yo he afirmado lo
>contrario de lo que dije.
Povvero Nicola! When we tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about
or can't support his arguments with facts, it's calumny. When we disagree
with what he says, we're saying he's said the opposite of what he's said.
Sorry, signore. Must be my Machiavellian heritage...
Brion L. VIBBER
> (btw KDE does not contain keyboard switching applet?
> I seem to recall I read about it somewhere, but since I
> do not use KDE I know nothing more)
Yes it does, it can be set up from the KDE control panel, personal settings
/ keyboard layout.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox,com)
Mike Wright
>
> In article <9lbr6i$8i0bp$3...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>,
> Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
> > Cada País en el mundo tiene más que una lengua. Pero no todas tienen la
> >misma importancia. Muchas son lenguas de algunos individuos que viven en
> >aquel estado, tienen importancia para ellos, no para toda la nación. En los
> >Estados Unidos se hablan francés, alemán, húngaro, chino... pero estos
> >idiomas son características de los pequeños grupos de personas que los
> >hablan. LA lengua, la única oficial,
>
> The United States has never had an official language.
Try http://www.ncbe.gwu.edu/miscpubs/tesol/official/chronology.htm.
http://users.erols.com/jboulet/puertodigestrebuttal.htm is
interesting, too.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.CoastalFog.net
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Polar
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
[...]
> I'll be extremely picky here. "macarone" and "macaroon" come from
>Venetian rather than Italian. In Italian we have "maccherone", with double
>"c" and and a stressed "e" before an "r" (a common phonetic phenomenon).
>Venetian doesn't have double consonants and ignores the latter phenomenon,
>that's why it could export "macaroni" and not "maccheroni" (and the alike)
>to England.
Absolutely fascinating! I never knew that in all the years I lived in
Italy (though not in Venice), and learned half-way decent Italian.
You learn something new every day!
--
Polar
Polar
Ouch! That resonates. For years I have waged a fruitless campaign to
establish that April is not the "cruelest month"; it's FebYOUary...
pero nadie me hace caso...
--
Polar
Polar
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>In article <9l9hd8$85tkr$1...@ID-60297.news.dfncis.de>,
>Phil Dragoman <phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>>
>>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote in message ...
>
>[crapo deletado]
>
>>Guantanamera! Guajira Guantanamera!
>>Guantanameeeeeeeeeera!
>>
>>That damn song is going to be going through my head for the next week.
Love it! Never get tired of it! They played it at us constantly when
I was in Cuba few months ago. Guess they think it's all we gringos
know. Never mind.
(Historical b.g. is interesting, as well.)
[...]
--
Polar
Dylan Sung
Polar wrote in message ...
:Ouch! That resonates. For years I have waged a fruitless campaign to
:establish that April is not the "cruelest month"; it's FebYOUary...
:pero nadie me hace caso...
Nah, its FeBREWARY.
At least, you can turn to drink and drown your sorrows.
Dyl.
Mark Rosenfelder
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff <de...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Phil asked what ties us together. Well, he (and anyone else interested)
>should check out:
>
><http://www.zompist.com/amercult.html>
>
>(Maybe one of our Italian readers could even attempt an Italian version?)
Hey, thanks for the plug! But it's too late-- the Italian one is done;
it'll be up in a couple weeks.
Nicola Nobili
> solved by recourse to a "good" dictionary.
¿Conoces el significado de la palabra "irónico"?
Perdóname por la broma. Me parece que cuando lees en español, haves
frecuentes errores de interpretación. Yo he leído los mismos mensajes de
Phil que has leído tú, pero entiendo perfectamente lo que me pareces incapaz
de entender. Probablemente es un problema da natura lingüística. Lo espero.
Si no, es peor.
> <http://www.zompist.com/amercult.html>
>
> (Maybe one of our Italian readers could even attempt an Italian version?)
Si tenía gana o tiempo de leerlo, lo haría yo. Pero no tengo ni la una,
ni el otro.
> I don't think you can easily get a consensus from
> Americans as to what's the "best" or "most important" art.
Es difícil que los americanos sean de acuerdo. Es el País de las
contradicciónes. No me importa lo que cree la gente en las calles. Me
importa lo que cree la gente que tiene la preparación y la cultura para
hablar de un determinado argumento.
> > Nadie ha dicho que no es "necesario" o "importante" estudiar ambos.
Pero
> >unos elementos pertenecen a la cultura de una población, otros no. No es
un
> >juicio de valor, es sencillamente una constatación.
>
> This is backtracking, plain and simple. Go back to the "Colours/Art"
> thread and review your comments about people who showed a great deal of
> interest in the latter and little or none in the former.
Tú haz lo mismo, por favor.
> Again, it's like Mark says: If I disagree, you assume I don't understand
> you. Esta seguro que si que entiendo tus palabras.
¿Tu teclado no tiene diacríticos?
> No obstante, nos no
> pondremos nunca de acuerdo, porque divergen en tanto grado nuestros puntos
> de partida.
Por fin, dices algo inteligente.
Irónico que nos somos de acuerdo diciendo que no podemos ponernos de
acuerdo...
> >la que te permite de hacer carrera,
>
> This is simply false.
¿Piensas que todas las lenguas tienen la misma importancia en cada País?
> No, it's a simple statement of fact. Have a look sometime at the results
> of the latest survey of home languages in the USA
"Home languages" (¿cómo se dirá en español? ¿"Idiomas de casa"? :-))
conciernen sólo las familias que los hablan. La lengua de los Estados Unidos
es el inglés, las otras son de poca importancia por la nación.
> (Though why should you need to? I thought you said you believed most of
> what you read here. Don't you trust me? No crees que sea un hombre
> sincero? Aunque escribie lo susodicho en espan~ol?)
"escribí". (Pido perdón, ¡no puedo resistir!).
> > Te gusta mucho cambiar argumento, ¿verdad?
>
> I'm not changing my argument, I'm building it. Stay with me...
Nononononono, cariño. Tú no entiendes, sin duda. Como te dije antes,
haces frecuentes errores en la interpretación del español. ¿Pensabas que
"argumento" quisiera decir "argument"? Por favor, compra un buen diccionario
de la lengua española. Yo he dicho que tú has cambiado "topic".
> No, I'm not. I think, for instance, that the heritage of a Catholic Amer-
> ican is different from that of a Protestant American or a Muslim American.
Sin duda. Pero ésto es un problema de los americanos católicos,
protestantes o musulmanes. El derecho de los EEUU es único por todos, y es
un derecho de raíces europeas (ésto no significa "italianas", como te gusta
pensar: significa, sobre todo, inglés). Todos los ciudadanos americanos
tienen que respectar el derecho "americano", otras leyes son elecciones
personales.
> Canon law is a mystifying thing to most Catholics; it's absolutely baffl-
> ing to most American non-Catholics, who simply have no exposure to the
> legal system it's based on.
Por esta razón he dicho que la lay canónica no pertenece a las "raíces
americanas". Confirmas todo, pero me corrige. ¿Cómo es posible?
> It behooves Americans to know something of all these systems of religi-
> ous law since it helps them to understand their neighbours.
Es oportuno que todos, no sólo los americanos, sepan algo de otros
sistemas de leyes, pero las leyes que no me conciernen no me pertenecen.
> Yet you make is sound like, if someone doesn't
> use dozens of Italian technical terms, they have no claim to be educated
> about art
No es lo que dije: "es difícil escribir una obra sobre el arte sin usar
palabras italianas". Si no conoces las palabras italianas que se usan en
inglés hablando de arte, no puedes decir que eres un experto de arte. ¿Te
parece que un inglés que no conoce palabras como "portico", "cupola",
"pietà", "fresco", etc sea un experto de arte? Espero que mi discurso sea
más claro en español (en inglés no hay esperancia, temo), aunque tengo
dudas.
> Povvero Nicola!
Te aseguro que no soy "povvero". Tienes razón, mi cuenta corriente no
permite que me describa como "rico", pero si tengo que hablar de mi
situación económica, sin duda diría que soy "povero".
> When we tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about
> or can't support his arguments with facts, it's calumny.
No, lo es cuando me pones en la boca palabras que nunca he dicho o
cuando das interpretaciones demasiado libres de mis discursos. ¿Quieres que
te escriba en italiano? ¿En ruso? Tal vez entienderás más simplemente...
La saludo atentamente,
Nicolás
Nicola Nobili
> The earliest English citations are for <maccaroni>; it was only later
> that the second <c> was dropped. This is from Italian <maccaroni>
> (the OED cites Florio 1598), an earlier form of <maccheroni> (Florio
> 1611).
"Maccaroni" is not an *earlier* form of "maccheroni": it simply is a
regional, uncommon form. Common "standard" Italian has been characterised by
the phonetic change of stressed "a" into "e" before an "r" since the very
beginning. And Florio, if my memory serves me right, was from Venice.
Phil Dragoman
Brian M. Scott wrote in message <3b7821ae...@enews.newsguy.com>...
>On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:27:29 -0400, "Phil Dragoman"
><phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote in
>>message ...
>>>"Phil Dragoman"
>>>> No soy artista, (pero btw soy pianista
>>>> y sé bien que la lengua de la música es realmente el italiano
>
>>>Espero que nuestros amigos americanos entiendan el español también...
>>>Me parece que lo más sincero que se dice en este newsgroup se escribe
>>>en el idioma castilliano.
>
>Aw, aren't they sweet!
I knew you were a sentimentalist. And sentimentalism proper began
with Giotto. Who was, in case anyone is interested, Italian.
>
>[...]
>
>>Pero está claro que hay ciertos norteamericanos de habla inglesa
>>(miembros de una cultura relativamente joven) que, debido a
>>ignorancia o per falta del sistema de enseñanza, no conocen
>>bien ni su propia historia (i.e. la del Occidente) ni sus tradiciones
>>artísticas.
>
>I can't imagine who they could be. Certainly my formal education was
>mostly in the Western tradition. My musical tastes are very Western,
>and my knowledge of Eastern literatures is regrettably slight.
Your education is sadly neglected, my boy. Those quarter tones just
drive you up the wall, heh? I'll bet you've read the Kama Sutra though.
Don't deny it. You decadent Westerners are all alike -- only interested
in the lubricious stuff.
>
>> Tales personas aceptan cualquiera doctrina
>>non-occidental, creyendo que están de ese modo liberales,
>>cosmopolitas, admiradores de una cultura más fina. Pero el
>>Oriente es mucho más antiguo que el Occidente y sonríe
>>con tolerancie a su inocencia juvenil de ellos.
>
>My, you *do* like your stereotypes, don't you?
Medium rare. With a cheese sauce. (We owe the French a
debt too.)
>
>>¿Y además de qué sirve una alma tal estética que pueda distinguir
>>entre un jarrón Ming y un vaso de noche, si no aprecia su propio
>>patrimonio?
>
>More figments of your imagination? I don't see the slightest evidence
>that anyone involved in this discussion fails to appreciate Western
>artistic culture. (Mind you, I think that you have a very narrow view
>of what constitutes one's 'proprio patrimonio' in a diverse society,
>but that's your loss, not mine.)
There's a whole coterie of anti-Italian bigots here whose hypocrisy
and jealously is just incredible. For a country which has suffered the
slings and arrows of so many invaders plundering and pillaging -- Goths,
Vandals, Celts, French, Spaniards, Austrians, Germans, Turks,
Iroquois -- to now have to endure this Italian bashing is just intolerable.
Any objective observer would admit without hesitation that Italy's cultural
preeminence not only in Europe but in the world is indisputable. And
since we haven't found any naked statues on the moon, that includes
the universe too. But where is that preeminence called into question?
Among the esthetes of Usenet. Sad. Very sad. First the art. Then the
olives. Will it never end?
>
>[...]
>
>BMS
Merda. Ancora una volta si è incazzato. Hey, Bri, if you get any
more ticked off, you'll be dropping your middle initial.
Regards,
Phil
Be sure to visit my web site for Phil's Guided Tours of Italy, featuring
great art and great food. All you can see and all you can eat for one
low price. All tours conducted in Latin for greater authenticity and
to keep the questions to a minimum.
Phil Dragoman
Nicola Nobili wrote in message <9lbr6k$8i0bp$4...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>...
>Phil Dragoman
>
>> De donde crece la palma.
>> Y antés de morirme quiero
>> Echar mis versos del alma.
>
> Perdóname, no es mi intención corregirte cada vez. Estoy curioso de
>saber si "antés" es la pronunciación de esta canción (puede ser). En
>castellano, se dice "antes".
La culpa es mía. Ya sabes que mis diacríticos dejan mucho que
desear. :-)
>
>> I am not Italian,
>> (by descent, that is, but by intellectual and artistic heritage I proudly
>> claim my citizenship!
>
> No, keep your citizenship. Having an Italian passport is not always
>convenient when you find yourself in a foreign airport or consulate, believe
>me...
Good idea -- but maybe dual citizenship? Tutti gli amanti della bellezza sono
citadini d'Italia!
>
>> Italia, ti voiu ben assaje (1))
>
> How interesting! You're the first foreigner I've ever met who's studying
>Neapolitan! (Which I absolutely can't understand).
> Ma quella trascrizione, dove l'hai trovata? Non so dirti se sia giusta o
>sbagliata, però di solito ho visto "te vojjo bbene assaje". O forse non
>esiste una vera e propria codificazione del napoletano, per cui si possono
>trovare versioni leggermente diverse?
Ho un amico di cui i genitori sono calabresi. Quando ho chiesto a lui
come si dice "ti voglio bene", (caso mai facessi la conoscenza di Miss
Napule :-)) lui ha detto qualchecosa che mi ha suonato così. Ma senza
dubbio l'ho udito inesattamente (non è il dialetto identico, lo so)
>
>> I'd
>> mention the food but I am on a diet and don't want to get hungry.
>
> I'm a vegetarian. Perhaps I could show you some gorgeous vegetarian
>Italian dishes which I'm sure will perfectly meet your dietary requirements.
>
>> Oh, and we can throw in a truckload or two of some halfway decent
>> literature from Parmenides to Belli as well.
>
> Wasn't Parmenide a philosopher? (Tra parentesi, complimenti per aver
>nominato Belli. Pochissimi lo conoscono, qui in Italia, ma ritengo che sia
>uno dei piú grandi poeti degli ultimi cinquecento anni).
Questo è vero. Conosco un poco le sue opere perchè sto studiano anche
il romanesco! (è molto evidente che mi piacciono i dialetti italiani, non è vero?
Ma mi interesso di tutte le lingue romanze, sopratutto il latino.)
>
>> OK, so maybe they
>> have second rate football teams.
>
> Do you mean American football or soccer? Please respect our soccer
>national team! We're second only to the Brasilians.
Soccer. That was supposed to be ironic! (You erased my smiley.)
But again, as a conoisseur of only the best in soccer, I am reminded
my Portuguese is being neglected. ;-)
>
>> (BTW, "QED" is ancient Italian,
>> 'quale era dimenticando' in the sermo circumforensis).
>
> Really? I must admit you've just taught me something...
I made it up. I was curious who would pick up on it. You know,
that could be the start of a new "interlingua"! It will have a gerundive
just like Latin. Think I'll call it 'dragomanese'.
>
>> It's in the same class as pantaloon (< pantalone), macaroon (< macarone),
>
> I'll be extremely picky here. "macarone" and "macaroon" come from
>Venetian rather than Italian. In Italian we have "maccherone", with double
>"c" and and a stressed "e" before an "r" (a common phonetic phenomenon).
>Venetian doesn't have double consonants and ignores the latter phenomenon,
>that's why it could export "macaroni" and not "maccheroni" (and the alike)
>to England.
>
That's good to know. But you know that now I will have to add Venetian
to my dialect menu. And my Italian is still far from perfect.
Regards,
Phil
Phil Dragoman
Phil Dragoman wrote in message <9lf6if$90rdi$1...@ID-60297.news.dfncis.de>...
>>
>But again, as a conoisseur of
Errr. connoisseur. They say the first thing to go is you Spanish
diacritics, then Old French spelling....
Regards,
Phil
Phil Dragoman
Phil Dragoman wrote in message <9lf6ps$8vc3o$1...@ID-60297.news.dfncis.de>...
err err 'your' then the English.
(If this were alt.rant.hyksos I would not bother with the corrections.)
Regards,
Phil
>
>
Brian M. Scott
<phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote in message <3b7821ae...@enews.newsguy.com>...
[...]
>> My musical tastes are very Western,
>>and my knowledge of Eastern literatures is regrettably slight.
>Your education is sadly neglected, my boy.
Not at all; it's just that my tastes are rather sharply defined. I'm
not terribly fond of much serious *Western* music after about 1800.
> Those quarter tones just
>drive you up the wall, heh? I'll bet you've read the Kama Sutra though.
Don't think so, though I remember reading a fair bit of it in the
library about 40 years ago.
[...]
>There's a whole coterie of anti-Italian bigots here whose hypocrisy
>and jealously is just incredible. [...]
Oh, yes. It's a well-known fact that 70% (or is it 90%) of the
world's population consists of anti-Italian bigots. Here in sci.lang
they're Chomskianoidite cretinous racist German supremacist
anti-Italian bigots. And some of them talk funny.
[...]
Brian
Mike Wright
>
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:01:45 -0400, "Phil Dragoman"
> <phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>
> >Brian M. Scott wrote in message <3b7821ae...@enews.newsguy.com>...
>
> [...]
>
> >> My musical tastes are very Western,
> >>and my knowledge of Eastern literatures is regrettably slight.
>
> >Your education is sadly neglected, my boy.
>
> Not at all; it's just that my tastes are rather sharply defined. I'm
> not terribly fond of much serious *Western* music after about 1800.
I don't like serious music, either. It really doesn't compare to stuff
like, "He Fell Asleep and the Hogs Ate Him", "How Can I Miss You If
You Won't Go Away", and "Zen Gospel Singing".
> > Those quarter tones just
> >drive you up the wall, heh? I'll bet you've read the Kama Sutra though.
>
> Don't think so, though I remember reading a fair bit of it in the
> library about 40 years ago.
>
> [...]
>
> >There's a whole coterie of anti-Italian bigots here whose hypocrisy
> >and jealously is just incredible. [...]
>
> Oh, yes. It's a well-known fact that 70% (or is it 90%) of the
> world's population consists of anti-Italian bigots. Here in sci.lang
> they're Chomskianoidite cretinous racist German supremacist
> anti-Italian bigots. And some of them talk funny.
>
> [...]
You left out anti-Greek and anti-math bigots. (But talking funny
doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, Brian.)
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> I knew you were a sentimentalist. And sentimentalism proper began
> with Giotto.
Well, I can spot some hints at sentimentalism in Cimabue as well, a
generation before. But now I'm being picky. However, it is curious to
notice that Giotto (*), whose painting was so serene and sweet (ever
taken a look at the "Cappella degli Scrovegni" in Padua? I get moved
every time I see it!), he was a real scoundrel in his private life.
Stingy, constantly irritated and aggressive, and a profiteer too.
> There's a whole coterie of anti-Italian bigots here whose hypocrisy
> and jealously is just incredible.
¿Cuál es la diferencia entre "hipocresía" y "ignorancia"? No es
siempre claro. Por supuesto, siempre son los ignorantes o los que no
tienen nada que ostentar los que no admiten la superioridad de una
nación en un particular sector. En esta manera pueden esconder sus
carencias.
> Any objective observer would admit without hesitation that Italy's cultural
> preeminence not only in Europe but in the world is indisputable.
I wouldn't like to sound "hypocric" myself, but I have to partially
object to your statement. Italy is to be acknowledged as a preeminent
country as far as art is concerned. It can also boast a lot of great
musical stuff (at least until the Baroque period, plus the opera), and
in a few other sectors (food, fashion, poetry, etc.) it can compete
with the best, but it is not "clearly" the best, other countries are
at the same level. In other fields, however, Italy is still lagging
behind the big ones. "Culture" is a vast concept.
> And
> since we haven't found any naked statues on the moon
Why, have we found dressed statues?
> Among the esthetes of Usenet. Sad. Very sad. First the art. Then the
> olives. Will it never end?
I'm afraid it is not up to us to make it end...
> Merda. Ancora una volta si è incazzato.
Complimenti! Vedo che il tuo italiano comprende anche alcune delle piú
fini espressioni della lingua "dove il sí risuona" (Dante, Inferno,
non ricordo quale canto e verso).
Bye,
Nicola
(*) Once I hear a Norwegian pronounce "Giotto" as if it were
"Ghiotto"; funny, since "ghiotto" is the Italian for "gluttonous"!
Brian M. Scott
<dar...@CoastalFog.net> wrote:
>"Brian M. Scott" wrote:
[...]
>> Not at all; it's just that my tastes are rather sharply defined. I'm
>> not terribly fond of much serious *Western* music after about 1800.
>I don't like serious music, either. It really doesn't compare to stuff
>like, "He Fell Asleep and the Hogs Ate Him", "How Can I Miss You If
>You Won't Go Away", and "Zen Gospel Singing".
The first two sound like Anna Russell Goes to the Country. That last
one is a bit mystifying, though; is it the sound of one vocal cord
vibrating?
[...]
Brian
Nicola Nobili
> Ho un amico di cui i genitori sono calabresi. Quando ho chiesto a lui
> come si dice "ti voglio bene", (caso mai facessi la conoscenza di Miss
> Napule :-)) lui ha detto qualchecosa che mi ha suonato così. Ma senza
> dubbio l'ho udito inesattamente (non è il dialetto identico, lo so)
Curioso, recentemente ho conosciuto un californiano di origini calabresi
che sta effettuando ricerche sui suoi antenati e che vorrebbe studiare il
calabrese. Il tuo amico i cui genitori sono calabresi è originario di quale
zona? Ci sono due gruppi dialettali ben distinti in Calabria, chiamati, con
ben poca fantasia, "settentrionale" e "meridionale". Il settentrionale è piú
simile al campano, il meridionale al siciliano, ma entrambi hanno molte
caratteristiche proprie.
> Questo è vero. Conosco un poco le sue opere perchè sto studiano anche
> il romanesco!
Complimenti! L'unico straniero che conosco che abbia studiato il
romanesco è l'autore delle traduzioni in russo delle poesie di Belli! Un
certo Solonovich, un signore anziano, simpaticissimo... ma ora sto
divagando. Per inciso, io ho tutti i duemila sonetti del Belli in formato
elettronico, se vuoi te ne mando qualcuno.
> That's good to know. But you know that now I will have to add Venetian
> to my dialect menu.
You should, at least to a limited extent. Then you can use your newly
acquired knowledge to enjoy Goldoni's plays in Venetian, or in Italian and
Venitian. He wrote dozens of pleasant and extremely amusing works, I warmly
recommend it to you.
Phil Dragoman
Brian M. Scott wrote in message <3b7b3a0a....@enews.newsguy.com>...
>On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:01:45 -0400, "Phil Dragoman"
><phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>
>>Brian M. Scott wrote in message <3b7821ae...@enews.newsguy.com>...
>
>[...]
>
>>> My musical tastes are very Western,
>>>and my knowledge of Eastern literatures is regrettably slight.
>
>>Your education is sadly neglected, my boy.
>
>Not at all; it's just that my tastes are rather sharply defined. I'm
>not terribly fond of much serious *Western* music after about 1800.
Oh, I don't know. Chopin and Liszt get at least a footstool in the
Pantheon, IMHO.
>
>> Those quarter tones just
>>drive you up the wall, heh? I'll bet you've read the Kama Sutra though.
>
>Don't think so, though I remember reading a fair bit of it in the
>library about 40 years ago.
Not really the way to do it. Read it with someone you love.
>
>[...]
>
>>There's a whole coterie of anti-Italian bigots here whose hypocrisy
>>and jealously is just incredible. [...]
>
>Oh, yes. It's a well-known fact that 70% (or is it 90%) of the
>world's population consists of anti-Italian bigots. Here in sci.lang
>they're Chomskianoidite cretinous racist German supremacist
>anti-Italian bigots. And some of them talk funny.
>
ROTFL. Well, before we call a truce in the cultural wars, I think
it is only just to point out that, stellar as is the achievement of Italy
in the arts, the Italians as well as the rest of the Europeans would
have remained eternally mired in their semi-barbaric state had it
not been for the fruits and blessings of civilization brought to them
by the Irish. The pilot light that ignited the sun.
>[...]
>
>Brian
Does this mean I'm off the shi.... errr..... scatological index?
Regards,
Phil
BTW, it's now Day Three of 'Guantanamera'. No end in sight.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>> So you're like hoovph: You think that any communication difficulty can be
>> solved by recourse to a "good" dictionary.
>
> ¿Conoces el significado de la palabra "irónico"?
That's 'nother of them nasty Spainish words, 'tain't it?
> Perdóname por la broma. Me parece que cuando lees en español, haves
>frecuentes errores de interpretación. Yo he leído los mismos mensajes de
>Phil que has leído tú, pero entiendo perfectamente lo que me pareces incapaz
>de entender. Probablemente es un problema da natura lingüística. Lo espero.
>Si no, es peor.
Do *you* know the meaning of "ironic", Nicola? Some of the times you're
"agreeing" with Phil, he's really mocking the whole discussion.
>> I don't think you can easily get a consensus from
>> Americans as to what's the "best" or "most important" art.
>
> Es difícil que los americanos sean de acuerdo. Es el País de las
>contradicciónes. No me importa lo que cree la gente en las calles. Me
>importa lo que cree la gente que tiene la preparación y la cultura para
>hablar de un determinado argumento.
Let me rephrase that, then: I don't think you can easily get a consensus
from *educated* Americans regarding art. Even you restricted yourself to
art experts, the situation would be even worse.
>> > Nadie ha dicho que no es "necesario" o "importante" estudiar ambos.
>> >Pero unos elementos pertenecen a la cultura de una población, otros
>> >no. No es un juicio de valor, es sencillamente una constatación.
>>
>> This is backtracking, plain and simple. Go back to the "Colours/Art"
>> thread and review your comments about people who showed a great deal of
>> interest in the latter and little or none in the former.
>
> Tú haz lo mismo, por favor.
I did, and guess what I found:
Mark Rosenfelder:
** I rather suspect that you're thinking of a time when a specialization
** in certain styles of European art was mistaken for knowledge of art in
** general.
Nicola Nobili:
* If you consider that the vast majority of art works are in Europe (Italy
* alone owns about 70% of the world total), I seriously doubt that anyone
* can be an art expert without knowing European art. Of course there are
* other styles and countries, which deserve respect and which may have
* produced masterpieces (I said "may" because I'm not sure all of them
* actually have), but in the last few thousand years Europe has definitely
* been the main reference point for artists and arts.
In other words, it's not possible to be an art expert without a knowledge
of Italian art, but ignorance of non-European art among art experts is
perfectly acceptable.
What bunkum!
>> Again, it's like Mark says: If I disagree, you assume I don't understand
>> you. Esta seguro que si que entiendo tus palabras.
>
> ¿Tu teclado no tiene diacríticos?
I have the ability to type them, yes, but--like many posters--I refrain
because what looks correct for one viewer is gobbledygook for another (and
that will remain the case until Unicode is fully implemented). Very few
of the <tildes> in Spanish are necessary for comprehension; if leaving
them off had produced any ambiguity in this case, I would've found an ad
hoc solution to eliminate it. But you understood perfectly well what I
wrote, so this reduces to a spelling flame.
> Por fin, dices algo inteligente.
Gracious as always.
>> >la que te permite de hacer carrera,
>>
>> This is simply false.
>
> ¿Piensas que todas las lenguas tienen la misma importancia en cada País?
Now who's changing arguments?
You say that English is the only language that allows one to succeed in
the USA. I tell you that many people do, in fact, succeed without it
here. You respond with a non sequitur.
>> No, it's a simple statement of fact. Have a look sometime at the results
>> of the latest survey of home languages in the USA
>
> "Home languages" (¿cómo se dirá en español? ¿"Idiomas de casa"? :-))
>conciernen sólo las familias que los hablan. La lengua de los Estados Unidos
>es el inglés, las otras son de poca importancia por la nación.
Small, but increasing. Far from nugatory, as you'd have us believe.
>> (Though why should you need to? I thought you said you believed most of
>> what you read here. Don't you trust me? No crees que sea un hombre
>> sincero? Aunque escribie lo susodicho en espan~ol?)
>
> "escribí". (Pido perdón, ¡no puedo resistir!).
Why are you using the indicative for a contrefactual? I *didn't* write it
in Spanish.
>> > Te gusta mucho cambiar argumento, ¿verdad?
>>
>> I'm not changing my argument, I'm building it. Stay with me...
>
> Nononononono, cariño. Tú no entiendes, sin duda. Como te dije antes,
>haces frecuentes errores en la interpretación del español. ¿Pensabas que
>"argumento" quisiera decir "argument"? Por favor, compra un buen diccionario
>de la lengua española. Yo he dicho que tú has cambiado "topic".
Now who doesn't know Spanish? From the online Spanish dictionary of the
University of Oviedo (<http://tradu.scig.uniovi.es/busca.html>:
argumento
1.m. Razonamiento empleado para convencer a alguien o para demostrar
algo: esa teoría no tiene argumentos válidos
Compare this to the definition from the OED:
argument
3.a. A statement or fact advanced for the purpose of influencing the
mind; a reason urged in support of a proposition;
[much deleted]
And I think that's enough of this foolishness for now.
Nicola Nobili
> Do *you* know the meaning of "ironic", Nicola? Some of the times you're
> "agreeing" with Phil, he's really mocking the whole discussion.
Por lo tanto, ambos hablamos en manera irónica.
> Let me rephrase that, then: I don't think you can easily get a consensus
> from *educated* Americans regarding art.
Puedes obtenir una discusión inteligente, y si la preparación de estas
personas es suficiente, se pueden identificar unos puntos de referencias.
Quien sigue diciendo que todos tienen gustos personales y que el arte tiene
la misma importancia en todos los lugares y los Países, no entiende el arte.
> I did, and guess what I found:
[...]
> In other words, it's not possible to be an art expert without a knowledge
> of Italian art, but ignorance of non-European art among art experts is
> perfectly acceptable.
En mi mensaje se decía "arte EUROPEA", no "arte ITALIANA". Y no decía
que la ignorancia es una cosa buena. Simplemente decí que el arte europea es
más importante, por cantidad y calidad, que el arte de otras poblaciones.
Sigo pensándolo.
> You say that English is the only language that allows one to succeed in
> the USA.
Ésta es tu personal (y libre) interpretación de mis palabras. *La*
lengua que te permite de hacer carrera en los Estados Unidos es el inglés.
Las otras no te dan garantías. ¿Piensas que un hispanohablante y un
ingléshablante (no sé si existe esta palabra) tienen las mismas condiciones
inicial en América?
> I tell you that many people do, in fact, succeed without it
> here. You respond with a non sequitur.
No, te pregunto tu opinión sobre lo que se está tratando. Es claro que
en los EEUU hay UNA lengua nacional, el inglés. Las otras son lenguas de
grupos de individuos, pero no interesan la nación. Si yo voy en China, llego
conmigo mi lengua, mi identidad, mi cultura; pero estas lengua, identidad,
cultura son mías, para los otros chinos no tienen importancia. Lo mismo,
mutatis mutandis, es lo que digo de las lenguas en América. Sólo el inglés
es *la* lengua de los Estados Unidos.
> > La lengua de los Estados Unidos
> >es el inglés, las otras son de poca importancia por la nación.
>
> Small, but increasing.
Bueno, entre 50 años veremos lo que pasa. Ahora *la* lengua es el
inglés.
> > "escribí". (Pido perdón, ¡no puedo resistir!).
>
> Why are you using the indicative for a contrefactual? I *didn't* write it
> in Spanish.
You did write "escribie", que no existe en español.
> Now who doesn't know Spanish? From the online Spanish dictionary of the
> University of Oviedo
¡Ah! ¡Qué carencia de competencia lingüística y de imaginación! Si busca
un significado de una palabra entre los en el diccionario, y después busca
un correspondiente en otro diccionario entre todos los significados
posibles, puedes demonstrar lo que quieres, pero no escribes la lengua que
habla la gente.
"Argumento", en español, significa simplemente "topic". A menudo, casi
siempre. Si quieres decir "argument", es mejor usar otra palabra,
"argumentación". En particulares contextos puede adquirir un significado
similar a lo de "argument", pero no es frecuente, y, claramente, en mi frase
(quiere decir "sentence", no "phrase") significaba "topic". Yo digo que tú
cambias "topic", tú contestas que cambias "argument". Obviamente no
entendiste lo que digo, y todos los diccionarios del mundo no cambierán este
hecho.
Con muchísimo cumplimientos,
Nicola
Brian M. Scott
<phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote in message <3b7b3a0a....@enews.newsguy.com>...
>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 21:01:45 -0400, "Phil Dragoman"
[...]
>>Not at all; it's just that my tastes are rather sharply defined. I'm
>>not terribly fond of much serious *Western* music after about 1800.
>Oh, I don't know. Chopin and Liszt get at least a footstool in the
>Pantheon, IMHO.
Chopin is rather nice, but I don't miss it when I don't hear it.
There's little by Liszt that I like. (Looking at the CDs sitting next
to the computer, I see lots of Telemann, lots of Bach, some Corelli,
the Vivaldi Gloria, some Boyce, some Arne, and some early lute music
by Dall'Aquila and Da Crema. And, because a former girlfriend liked
it and I was curious, a rather strange collection called Sjofn by a
Finnish group called Gjallarhorn.)
[...]
Brian
Brian M. Scott
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
[...]
>> I did, and guess what I found:
>
>[...]
>
>> In other words, it's not possible to be an art expert without a knowledge
>> of Italian art, but ignorance of non-European art among art experts is
>> perfectly acceptable.
> En mi mensaje se decía "arte EUROPEA", no "arte ITALIANA".
You said: 'If you consider that the vast majority of art works are in
Europe (Italy alone owns about 70% of the world total), I seriously
doubt that anyone can be an art expert without knowing European art'.
If it were actually true that Italy owned 70% of the world total, it
would obviously be true that Italy owned far more than 70% of the
European total, and knowing European art would obviously require
knowing Italian art. By clear implication, therefore, you *did* say
that a knowledge of Italian art was necessary for an art expert. (Did
you really think that no one would go back to see what you snipped
out?!)
> Y no decía
>que la ignorancia es una cosa buena. Simplemente decí que el arte europea es
>más importante, por cantidad y calidad, que el arte de otras poblaciones.
Which is as clear an indication as anyone could ask for that you don't
know what you're talking about.
>Sigo pensándolo.
>> You say that English is the only language that allows one to succeed in
>> the USA.
> Ésta es tu personal (y libre) interpretación de mis palabras. *La*
>lengua que te permite de hacer carrera en los Estados Unidos es el inglés.
In English the use of the definite article here carries a clear
implication that English is the only language that does so.
>Las otras no te dan garantías.
Neither does English.
> ¿Piensas que un hispanohablante y un
>ingléshablante (no sé si existe esta palabra) tienen las mismas condiciones
>inicial en América?
Of course not. No such claim was made.
[...]
BMS
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Brian M. Scott <sc...@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:39:51 +0200, "Nicola Nobili"
><nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>
>>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>
>[...]
>
>>> I did, and guess what I found:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> In other words, it's not possible to be an art expert without a knowledge
>>> of Italian art, but ignorance of non-European art among art experts is
>>> perfectly acceptable.
>
>> En mi mensaje se decía "arte EUROPEA", no "arte ITALIANA".
>
>You said: 'If you consider that the vast majority of art works are in
>Europe (Italy alone owns about 70% of the world total), I seriously
>doubt that anyone can be an art expert without knowing European art'.
>If it were actually true that Italy owned 70% of the world total, it
>would obviously be true that Italy owned far more than 70% of the
>European total, and knowing European art would obviously require
>knowing Italian art. By clear implication, therefore, you *did* say
>that a knowledge of Italian art was necessary for an art expert. (Did
>you really think that no one would go back to see what you snipped
>out?!)
Nicola doesn't seem to be able to remember anything he's posted
previously. He also said:
* BUT: in every field, the superiority of the populations which have
* achieved the highest standards throughout history must be
* acknowledged. As far as art is concerned, the Europeans (especially
* the Italians, but also the French, the Dutch and a few others,
* according to the period and style) are the reference point.
If he's now saying that one can be considered knowledgeable about European
art without being knowledgeable about Italian art, then even *I* disagree
with him.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>> into an open-air museum.
>
> It already is...
People don't usually live in museums. Maybe we could relocate them to
houseboats.
>> The art's the only thing you *really* have to go there for. Everything
>> else you can get mail order.
>
> ¿Qué dices de la mar?
This may come as a surprise to Italians who have not travelled outside
their tiny peninsula, but other countries also border the sea.
>¿De los Alpes?
Are all the Alps in Italy? Or only 70-90% of them?
(There are other mountain ranges in the world, some of them quite high and
equally deserving of respect, but no one can deny that the Alps are the
reference point for the world. It's impossible to discuss oreology with-
out using terms derived from Alpestrian.)
>¿De los tortellini? (Los que se comen afueras de Italia no son la misma
>cosa, no importa si han inventado el avión).
[...]
So tortellini are on the World Heritage list of culinary patrimony? I
wouldn't be surprised, given how many Chinese come to Italy each year to
study pasta-making.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>
>> Do *you* know the meaning of "ironic", Nicola? Some of the times you're
>> "agreeing" with Phil, he's really mocking the whole discussion.
>
> Por lo tanto, ambos hablamos en manera irónica.
So when he wrote:
** Any objective observer would admit without hesitation that Italy's
** cultural preeminence not only in Europe but in the world is indisput-
** able.
And you replied:
* I wouldn't like to sound "hypocric" myself, but I have to partially
* object to your statement. Italy is to be acknowledged as a preeminent
* country as far as art is concerned. It can also boast a lot of great
* musical stuff (at least until the Baroque period, plus the opera), and
* in a few other sectors (food, fashion, poetry, etc.) it can compete
* with the best, but it is not "clearly" the best, other countries are
* at the same level. In other fields, however, Italy is still lagging
* behind the big ones. "Culture" is a vast concept.
you were both being ironical? I don't think so; I think *one* of you was
being ironical, producing a boast too outlandish to be taken at face
value, and the other one was suckered by his own parochialism into res-
ponding seriously.
>> Let me rephrase that, then: I don't think you can easily get a consensus
>> from *educated* Americans regarding art.
>
> Puedes obtenir una discusión inteligente, y si la preparación de estas
>personas es suficiente, se pueden identificar unos puntos de referencias.
>Quien sigue diciendo que todos tienen gustos personales y que el arte tiene
>la misma importancia en todos los lugares y los Países, no entiende el arte.
So is the constructing of straw men also one of the preeminent artisanal
traditions of Italy? There you go again, putting words into my mouth.
[next part snipped; see Brian's reply]
>> I tell you that many people do, in fact, succeed without it
>> here. You respond with a non sequitur.
>
> No, te pregunto tu opinión sobre lo que se está tratando. Es claro que
>en los EEUU hay UNA lengua nacional, el inglés. Las otras son lenguas de
>grupos de individuos, pero no interesan la nación.
This is not so clear to me. Perhaps because where you see "la nación"
(tienes tu tilde, eres feliz?), I see a lot of groups of individuals.
Where you and Phil see a single patrimony for us all, I see as many as
there are citizens.
>Si yo voy en China, llego
>conmigo mi lengua, mi identidad, mi cultura; pero estas lengua, identidad,
>cultura son mías, para los otros chinos no tienen importancia. Lo mismo,
>mutatis mutandis, es lo que digo de las lenguas en América. Sólo el inglés
>es *la* lengua de los Estados Unidos.
Bad analogy. Spanish was present in many areas of the USA *before*
English. (Guess when you studied "history", you neglected the Americas.)
If it's so unimportant here, why are so many employers in my area always
advertising for Spanish-English bilinguals?
>> > La lengua de los Estados Unidos
>> >es el inglés, las otras son de poca importancia por la nación.
>>
>> Small, but increasing.
>
> Bueno, entre 50 años veremos lo que pasa. Ahora *la* lengua es el
>inglés.
The best experts on the USA always come from abroad, like de Tocqueville.
What would we do without y'all to explain our country to us?
>> > "escribí". (Pido perdón, ¡no puedo resistir!).
>>
>> Why are you using the indicative for a contrefactual? I *didn't* write it
>> in Spanish.
>
> You did write "escribie", que no existe en español.
Sorry, should be <escriba>, si? [Of course, what I *want* to write is
<escrigui>. That's what I get for humouring you.]
>> Now who doesn't know Spanish? From the online Spanish dictionary of the
>> University of Oviedo
>
> ¡Ah! ¡Qué carencia de competencia lingüística y de imaginación! Si busca
>un significado de una palabra entre los en el diccionario, y después busca
>un correspondiente en otro diccionario entre todos los significados
>posibles, puedes demonstrar lo que quieres, pero no escribes la lengua que
>habla la gente.
[snip]
When you think I'm not understanding what you're saying, you tell me to
look in a dictionary. When I *do* look in a dictionary, you tell me that
what's listed is not "the language that people talk".
No pleasing some people!
Brian M. Scott
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
[...]
>(There are other mountain ranges in the world, some of them quite high and
>equally deserving of respect, but no one can deny that the Alps are the
>reference point for the world. It's impossible to discuss oreology with-
>out using terms derived from Alpestrian.)
'chocolate', 'creme', ...
>>¿De los tortellini? (Los que se comen afueras de Italia no son la misma
>>cosa, no importa si han inventado el avión).
>[...]
>So tortellini are on the World Heritage list of culinary patrimony? I
>wouldn't be surprised, given how many Chinese come to Italy each year to
>study pasta-making.
You mean those salty things are really Roman noodles?
Brian
Dylan Sung
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote in message ...
:In article <9lbr6l$8i0bp$5...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>,
:Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
:>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
:>
:>> Move the remaining 10% of the world's art to Italy. Turn the whole
thing
:>> into an open-air museum.
:>
:> It already is...
:
:People don't usually live in museums. Maybe we could relocate them to
:houseboats.
:
:>> The art's the only thing you *really* have to go there for. Everything
:>> else you can get mail order.
:>
:> ¿Qué dices de la mar?
:
:This may come as a surprise to Italians who have not travelled outside
:their tiny peninsula, but other countries also border the sea.
:
:>¿De los Alpes?
:
:Are all the Alps in Italy? Or only 70-90% of them?
:
:(There are other mountain ranges in the world, some of them quite high and
:equally deserving of respect, but no one can deny that the Alps are the
:reference point for the world. It's impossible to discuss oreology with-
:out using terms derived from Alpestrian.)
This spring, whilst in Hong Kong, I tried oreos for the first time, and they
stained
my tongue dark brown for ages. I resolved never to have them again, unless
it was offered and I had to be polite.
:[....]
Dyl.
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
En este caso, no. En otros, sí.
> This is not so clear to me. Perhaps because where you see "la nación"
> (tienes tu tilde, eres feliz?)
No, no estoy feliz, porque has confundido la "tilde" (que se usa sólo
sobre la "n" en español) y el "acento". Otra vez, tengo que admitir
que es difícil entendernos cuando pruebas a hablar español.
> I see a lot of groups of individuals.
> Where you and Phil see a single patrimony for us all, I see as many as
> there are citizens.
Pues, tu idea de cultura es la más individuale posible. Bueno, ten tus
principios. No se puede razonar de nada con los que veen sólo el
individuo y no el colectivo.
> Bad analogy. Spanish was present in many areas of the USA *before*
> English. (Guess when you studied "history", you neglected the Americas.)
Te diré: estudié las Américas propio en los Estados Unidos. Sé cuando
llegaron los españoles en el Nuevo Mundo (hasta traducí un libro sobre
la fundación de los modernos estados americanos). Y sigo diciendo: "el
inglés es °la° lengua de los EEUU.
> If it's so unimportant here, why are so many employers in my area always
> advertising for Spanish-English bilinguals?
Hay en Italia, en Francia, en Alemania... también. Nunca dije que
conocer los idiomas extranjeros no tiene importancia. Estás
confundido, sin duda...
> > Bueno, entre 50 años veremos lo que pasa. Ahora *la* lengua es el
> >inglés.
>
> The best experts on the USA always come from abroad, like de Tocqueville.
> What would we do without y'all to explain our country to us?
Esperar 50 años, por ejemplo. No es una mala idea.
> When you think I'm not understanding what you're saying, you tell me to
> look in a dictionary. When I *do* look in a dictionary, you tell me that
> what's listed is not "the language that people talk".
Tienes razón, es mi culpa. Creía que tú fuera capaz de utilizar el
diccionario correctamente. Ahora veo que tienes problemas. Bueno, la
próxima vez te explicaré el significado de las palabras difíciles sin
comentarios irónicos. De todos modos, ¿has comprendido la diferencia
entre "argumento" y "argumentación" en español?
Adios,
Nicola
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
>
> that a knowledge of Italian art was necessary for an art expert.
Sin duda. Pero no es una buena razón para cambiar las citaciones.
> (Did
> you really think that no one would go back to see what you snipped
> out?!)
Me parece extraño que no comprendisteis mis frases antes. Ahora me
parece extraño que por vosotros tengo una importancia tan grande que
vais a buscar mis viejas citaciones. En ambos casos, no habeis
comprendido el significados de mis palabras. (Hago lo que puedo para
escribir en manera simple, espero que te guste mi esfuerzo)
> > Y no decía
> >que la ignorancia es una cosa buena. Simplemente decí que el arte europea es
> >más importante, por cantidad y calidad, que el arte de otras poblaciones.
>
> Which is as clear an indication as anyone could ask for that you don't
> know what you're talking about.
"Everyone" en sci.lang. Te aseguro que en lugares (físicos o
virtuales) donde se encuentran expertos de arte, los comentarios
cambian en manera sorprendente.
> In English the use of the definite article here carries a clear
> implication that English is the only language that does so.
Estoy escribiendo en español, ¿lo notaste? Sigo pensando que una
carencia de competencia lingüística es el origen de nuestra discusión
sobre este (clarísimo) punto.
Bueno, ahora me voy. Admito que me estoy cansando de esta locura. Está
bien, pensad lo que quereis, vivré feliz y alegre hasta si no logro
cambiar vuestra opinión. Pensad lo que quereis de arte, de mi, de mi
País, de todo el mundo. Me voy por unos días. No me faltará este
grupo, y tengo dudas que yo faltaré a vosotros.
Adios,
Nicola
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> > ¿Qué dices de la mar?
>
> This may come as a surprise to Italians who have not travelled outside
> their tiny peninsula, but other countries also border the sea.
Una volta ti venivano meglio, le battute. Stai invecchiando...
> >¿De los Alpes?
>
> Are all the Alps in Italy? Or only 70-90% of them?
A big part of them. Go ahead and count the precise proportions.
> (There are other mountain ranges in the world, some of them quite high and
> equally deserving of respect
You said that art is the only Italian thing which cannot be shipped. I
simply "proved", even without figures, that you were wrong. Unless you
mean that you had the Mont Blanc or the Monte Rosa shipped to you for
your birthday last year, that is.
> So tortellini are on the World Heritage list of culinary patrimony?
I thought tortellini was singular in English. Did I get it wrong?
> I
> wouldn't be surprised, given how many Chinese come to Italy each year to
> study pasta-making.
Well, I'm starting to see Chinese pizza-makers in restaurants. Don't
know if they also deal with fresh pasta.
Nicola
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> the Vivaldi Gloria,
Try "La Tempesta", "L'Estro Armonico" and "Le Quattro Stagioni" as well.
Nicola
Phil Dragoman
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote in message
>This is not so clear to me. Perhaps because where you see "la nación"
>(tienes tu tilde, eres feliz?), I see a lot of groups of individuals.
>Where you and Phil see a single patrimony for us all, I see as many as
>there are citizens.
>
Just a dang minute, thar. I didn't say a single patrimony - just that we
ought to have something in common - and that happens to come from
the Western European tradition, especially the guvamint. That is a
heritage we should all know something about regardless of what
bit of soil was trodden by our ancestors. I never decried the worth of
others' cultural heritage, or my own, for that matter. (BTW, I liked the
canon law bit.) For the record, I think both the Iroquois and the Hyksos
are wonderful wonderful folks. Some of my best friends are Iroqu...
nah, I don't actually know any. But I'll bet I'd like them. I'm reserving
judgement on the Hyksos till we confirm they are NOT Greek DJ's
from the UK (at least one of whom cannot read classical Greek).
Holy mackerel, I'm starting to take this seriously.
...... Guantanamera, guajira guantanamera ....... (Day Four)
Ahhh, that's better now.
Regards,
Phil
Peter T. Daniels
> This spring, whilst in Hong Kong, I tried oreos for the first time, and they
> stained
> my tongue dark brown for ages. I resolved never to have them again, unless
> it was offered and I had to be polite.
Then either they weren't real Oreos, and someone was infringing
Nabisco's trademark, or else they were some sort of bizarre export
version. (McDonald's stuff is allegedly rather different in other
countries than at home, but when I was in London I was not about to pay
50% more to find out.)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Phil Dragoman
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote in
message ...
>
>> I knew you were a sentimentalist. And sentimentalism proper began
>> with Giotto.
>
>Well, I can spot some hints at sentimentalism in Cimabue as well, a
>generation before. But now I'm being picky.
Yes I believe that there is a foretaste of sentimentalism in Cimabue,
but it does not really build momentum until the mature Giotto (i.e. after
his faux-Byzantine infatuation.) This is what makes him the fulcrum
of the early Renaissance, IMO, though I acknowledge that some
attribute that to his teacher.
>However, it is curious to
>notice that Giotto (*), whose painting was so serene and sweet (ever
>taken a look at the "Cappella degli Scrovegni" in Padua? I get moved
>every time I see it!),
You should not stand so close, then. ;-) I have seen copies in books
but that is hardly a comparable experience.
>he was a real scoundrel in his private life.
>Stingy, constantly irritated and aggressive, and a profiteer too.
I didn't know that. I'm glad to learn he had some of the redeeming
qualities of humanity, which are often difficult to discern especially
in his early period. Artists can sometimes seem remote from man
because of their divine gift.
>
>> There's a whole coterie of anti-Italian bigots here whose hypocrisy
>> and jealously is just incredible.
>
>¿Cuál es la diferencia entre "hipocresía" y "ignorancia"? No es
>siempre claro. Por supuesto, siempre son los ignorantes o los que no
>tienen nada que ostentar los que no admiten la superioridad de una
>nación en un particular sector. En esta manera pueden esconder sus
>carencias.
La vital diferencia entre los conceptos está lo siguiente (por lo menos
así me parece): la hipocresía exige un cierto conocimiento del tema y
està un defecto moral y por eso despreciable y imperdonable, mientras
que la ignorancia está simplemente una falta del intelecto y por lo tanto
disculpable y quizá hasta remediable.
>
>> Any objective observer would admit without hesitation that Italy's cultural
>> preeminence not only in Europe but in the world is indisputable.
>
>I wouldn't like to sound "hypocric" myself, but I have to partially
>object to your statement. Italy is to be acknowledged as a preeminent
>country as far as art is concerned. It can also boast a lot of great
>musical stuff (at least until the Baroque period, plus the opera), and
>in a few other sectors (food, fashion, poetry, etc.) it can compete
>with the best, but it is not "clearly" the best, other countries are
>at the same level. In other fields, however, Italy is still lagging
>behind the big ones. "Culture" is a vast concept.
>
>> And
>> since we haven't found any naked statues on the moon
>
>Why, have we found dressed statues?
Yes, oddly enough. But working in lunar cheese is much easier
than Pentelic or Carrara marble. It also doesn't travel well --
the samples I saw appeared to be the rudest examples of
fondue art -- even the French would rather eat them than display
them. But don't accept my judgement; I was one of those who
thought there were tiny amoebae in moon rocks. I can be
deceived, too, I have learned.
>
>> Among the esthetes of Usenet. Sad. Very sad. First the art. Then the
>> olives. Will it never end?
>
>I'm afraid it is not up to us to make it end...
Yes it is. We can simply admit to being snobs and ask for absolution.
But I'm afraid I cherish le snobisme too dearly to relinquish it without a
fight. I can't even make myself call it by its "nom anglais". Hélas! ;-)
>
>> Merda. Ancora una volta si è incazzato.
>
>Complimenti! Vedo che il tuo italiano comprende anche alcune delle piú
>fini espressioni della lingua "dove il sí risuona" (Dante, Inferno,
>non ricordo quale canto e verso).
Tante grazie. Ma devo corrigerte un poco. Nel canto 33 canta nostro poeta:
Ahi Pisa, vituperio de le genti
del bel paese là dove ’l sì suona,
poi che i vicini a te punir son lenti,
muovasi la Capraia e la Gorgona,
e faccian siepe ad Arno in su la foce,
sì ch’elli annieghi in te ogne persona!
Mi sembra che ho letto una volta che Dante voleva comporre il suo
capolavoro in "provençal" (provinciale?). Forse, se l'ebbe fatto,
la lingua dei trovatori sarebbe più conosciuta oggigiorno. (Non
so se questo sia la verità - credo che considerava anche la possibilità
di impiegare il latino.)
(Scusi, ma vorrei ti porre una domanda circa la scansione del secondo
verso sopra. La parola 'suona' deve venire pronunciata in tre sillabe?
Così farebbe le dodici rechieste. Oggi si dice in due, non è vero?)
>
>Bye,
> Nicola
>
>(*) Once I hear a Norwegian pronounce "Giotto" as if it were
>"Ghiotto"; funny, since "ghiotto" is the Italian for "gluttonous"!
That's almost the way the Russian pronounce "Goethe".
Gyotye. ;-)
Regards,
Phil
Phil Dragoman
Nicola Nobili wrote in message <9lgg9l$97nhe$1...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>...
>Phil Dragoman
>
>> Ho un amico di cui i genitori sono calabresi. Quando ho chiesto a lui
>> come si dice "ti voglio bene", (caso mai facessi la conoscenza di Miss
>> Napule :-)) lui ha detto qualchecosa che mi ha suonato così. Ma senza
>> dubbio l'ho udito inesattamente (non è il dialetto identico, lo so)
>
> Curioso, recentemente ho conosciuto un californiano di origini calabresi
>che sta effettuando ricerche sui suoi antenati e che vorrebbe studiare il
>calabrese. Il tuo amico i cui genitori sono calabresi è originario di quale
>zona? Ci sono due gruppi dialettali ben distinti in Calabria, chiamati, con
>ben poca fantasia, "settentrionale" e "meridionale". Il settentrionale è piú
>simile al campano, il meridionale al siciliano, ma entrambi hanno molte
>caratteristiche proprie.
Non so, ma quando ho domandato a lui se capisse il dialetto siciliano
nel film "Godfather", ha detto che i suoi genitori parlano quasi proprio
così. Sembra in quel caso che loro parlano il dialetto meridionale. O
forse, sono siciliani e hanno traslocato (come si dice « déménager »
in italiano?) in Calabria prima di essere venuti negli Stati Uniti? Ma
io stesso non sono sicuro perche per me è ancora difficile da capire
l'italiano parlato (ancora meno i dialetti).
>
>> Questo è vero. Conosco un poco le sue opere perchè sto studiano anche
>> il romanesco!
>
> Complimenti! L'unico straniero che conosco che abbia studiato il
>romanesco è l'autore delle traduzioni in russo delle poesie di Belli! Un
>certo Solonovich, un signore anziano, simpaticissimo... ma ora sto
>divagando. Per inciso, io ho tutti i duemila sonetti del Belli in formato
>elettronico, se vuoi te ne mando qualcuno.
Temo che mai non ne legga duemila! :-) (non ho nemmeno letto tutti i
sonetti di Shakespeare!) Ma se il file non è troppo grande, ti sarei molto
riconoscente per ricevere qualcuno.
>
>> That's good to know. But you know that now I will have to add Venetian
>> to my dialect menu.
>
> You should, at least to a limited extent. Then you can use your newly
>acquired knowledge to enjoy Goldoni's plays in Venetian, or in Italian and
>Venitian. He wrote dozens of pleasant and extremely amusing works, I warmly
>recommend it to you.
>
I must confess I don't know his work even in translation. But it is now on
my "to do" list. Do you know a good web site for Venetian dialect? Or
Italian dialects in general?
Regards,
Phil
Dylan Sung
Phil Dragoman wrote in message <9lj2e3$9nlkb$1...@ID-60297.news.dfncis.de>...
:
:I must confess I don't know his work even in translation. But it is now
on
:my "to do" list. Do you know a good web site for Venetian dialect? Or
:Italian dialects in general?
Andrea Pollett has pages on the Roma dialect in English and Italian
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/5319/dialect.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/5319/dialetto.htm
Dyl.
Dylan Sung
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote in
Don't
:know if they also deal with fresh pasta.
What's pasta got to do with pizza? The dough base is different.
I have made some pasta before, and it is much tastier fresh. Rolling pins
are much too much work though; I'll have to get one of those graded
mangle-like machines sometime in the future.
Dyl.
António Pedro M. R. H. Marques
> (...)
> Estoy escribiendo en español, ¿lo notaste? Sigo pensando que una
> carencia de competencia lingüística es el origen de nuestra discusión
> sobre este (clarísimo) punto.
> (...)
Nicola, I don't like pointing out this sort of thing, but your spanish
as seen in this thread is far from being good. It's good from the
standpoint that anything better than broken is considered good (why, in
Portugal, if a foreigner can line up a sentence, albeit stuffed with
ungrammaticalities, it's immediately considered great, since foreigners
are supposed not to be able to utter two words together), but taking
into account that you're italian it's not that hard anyway. IIRC your
english is way better, so please use it, unless you wish to use italian
(o veneto, o na lengua tua).
--
antónio pedro r. marques
www.terravista.pt/enseada/6172 /aon /espello
El nombre se omite por error del Windous
"Nicola Nobili" <nicolan...@libero.it> escribió en el mensaje
news:9l37vn$77b2d$2...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de...
> Phil Dragoman
>
> Casi me olvidé, lo siento:
>
> > (6) Pero
> > hablando en serio, ¿no es correcto así con acento?
>
> Las reglas ortográficas españolas dicen que cuando una vocal "fuerte"
> (a, e, o) y una débil (i, e) se encuentran, siempre el acento cae sobre la
> fuerte; si no es así, tienes que utilizar el acento sobre la vocal débil.
> Por lo tanto, es claro que "fue" no necesita acento. Si lo añades, no es
un
> "error", creo, se entiende, todavía es una fatiga inútil.
Si me permiten, voy a exponer lo que aprendí en el colegio hace unos años,
"fue" no lleva tilde porque es monosílabo, y éstos nunca se acentúan en
castellano (salvo contadas excepciones y sólo cuando se trata de homófonos
de diferentes categorías gramaticales, p.ej. te-té, mi-mí, el-él, se-sé, y
ya no me acuerdo de más, pero hay otras pocas)
Oye, que chulo m'a quedao ;-) saluda: txolbi
P.D.: por si no ha quedado claro, los monosílabos nunca se acentúan en
castellano, repito, nunca xD
> Chao,
> Nicolás Nobles
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff)
>
>> > ¿Qué dices de la mar?
>>
>> This may come as a surprise to Italians who have not travelled outside
>> their tiny peninsula, but other countries also border the sea.
>
>Una volta ti venivano meglio, le battute. Stai invecchiando...
Whatever.
>> >¿De los Alpes?
>>
>> Are all the Alps in Italy? Or only 70-90% of them?
>
>A big part of them. Go ahead and count the precise proportions.
>
>> (There are other mountain ranges in the world, some of them quite high and
>> equally deserving of respect
>
>You said that art is the only Italian thing which cannot be shipped. I
>simply "proved", even without figures, that you were wrong. Unless you
>mean that you had the Mont Blanc or the Monte Rosa shipped to you for
>your birthday last year, that is.
Ah, Nicola, you're going to force me to take this seriously again! (Un-
like Mr Dragoman, humming "one ton tomato" just isn't enough for me.)
Context, mi ragazzo, context. You're so snip-happy, you might not even
have noticed this, but the statement I was responding to was this:
* I am not Italian, (by descent, that is, but by intellectual and artistic
* heritage I proudly claim my citizenship! Italia, ti voiu ben assaje
* (1)) but I doubt that there is anywhere in the world you could go to
* find not only nifty art but also great music, incredible wines and
* gorgeous women.
When I said that art's the only thing one has to travel to Italy for
(which is not the same as saying it's "the only Italian thing which
cannot be shipped"; Italian art gets shipped over here all the time, the
owners just don't *like* to do it) I meant it's the only thing *of those
Phil listed*. (He specifically left food off the list, he says, in order
not make himself hungry.)
Music can be played anywhere--often by much better orchestras than can be
found in Italy. Wines ship well, although it must be admitted that many
excellent local products are not shipped (my boyfriend still raves about a
Vinsanto wrapped in straw that his hosts had to buy in person from a local
vineyard which he drank over 20 years ago). But Italy is far from the on-
ly nation producing great local wines. Depending on your tastes, it does-
n't produce the best either. (My prejudice is for Spain, though I would
guess most people lean toward France.)
That leaves beautiful women. Notwithstanding that they are of merely
aesthetic interest to me, they are also obtainable elsewhere and highly
mobile. In fact, Italy herself now imports them from Eastern Europe.
But let's look at the rest of your list anyway: I see you have the sea,
mountains, and food. Could you have picked three things more obtainable
throughout the world? There's more sea than we know what do with and, de-
depending on how you like it served (warm, cool, salty, sweet, rough,
etc.), there are better places to go than Italy. Ditto for mountains.
And then you mention tortellini as if it's the most sublime edible you can
imagine. Tortellini? An Italian attempt at a potsticker that, nine times
out of ten, is more doughy and less flavourful than its Asian counter-
parts? I don't doubt that it can be delicious. However, as learn from
Iron Chef, anything can be if you've got a honkin' big lot of foie gras
and black truffle to throw at it.
ObLing [please, dear readers, contain your disbelief]:
>> So tortellini are on the World Heritage list of culinary patrimony?
>
>I thought tortellini was singular in English. Did I get it wrong?
[snip]
I don't doubt that, for some people, it is. It's a mass noun and, as the
discussion of "chad" here showed not too long ago, that's a lot of indi-
vidual variation in how many of them are treated. For me personally, the
more individually distinguishable the individual bits of dough are, the
more likely I am to use a plural. It's quite easy to have a single
<tortellino> stick to the cooking pot, less so a single grain of cous-
cous. So the latter is always singular to me, while the former varies de-
pending on whether I'm thinking of it as a mess or as objects.
For instance, I'd have to say "Some of the tortellini in this package are
green." Using the singular implies to me that they are mottled.
Mike Wright
"Brian M. Scott" wrote:
>
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:53:26 -0700, Mike Wright
> <dar...@CoastalFog.net> wrote:
>
> >"Brian M. Scott" wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> Not at all; it's just that my tastes are rather sharply defined. I'm
> >> not terribly fond of much serious *Western* music after about 1800.
>
> >I don't like serious music, either. It really doesn't compare to stuff
> >like, "He Fell Asleep and the Hogs Ate Him", "How Can I Miss You If
> >You Won't Go Away", and "Zen Gospel Singing".
>
> The first two sound like Anna Russell Goes to the Country.
The Stanley Bros. and Dan Hicks, respectively.
> That last
> one is a bit mystifying, though; is it the sound of one vocal cord
> vibrating?
>
> [...]
Hope this doesn't count as copyright infringement:
ZEN GOSPEL SINGING
(Mark Graham)
I once was a Baptist and on each Sunday morn
I'd be in church praying just as sure as you're born.
We'd sing there like angels in sweet harmony
But sin and salvation are no longer for me.
Cause now I'm a Buddhist I chant my mantra each day
But I miss that good singing in the old Gospel way.
We sing of old Buddha and the wonders of Zen.
We'll meet in Nirvana, yes we'll be there then.
Now my old friends don't like me since I shaved my head
and they all talk about me as if I were dead.
My good old Zen buddies they think I'm ok,
But I can't get them singing more than one note a day.
We sit here cross legged eating brown rice and cheese
and we chant out our mantra in four square harmony.
We don't sing of salvation or a heavenly home.
It's Zen gospel singing, just Om Om, sweet Om.
Copyright Mark Graham
I heard the first line of the last verse as "brown rice and tea".
The melody lends itself to traditional four-part Bluegrass gospel harmony.
The basic (MIDI) melody can be heard at http://media.mudcat.org/midi/ZENGOSPE.mid
--
Mike Wright
http://www.CoastalFog.net
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Brian M. Scott
<phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote in message
>>This is not so clear to me. Perhaps because where you see "la nación"
>>(tienes tu tilde, eres feliz?), I see a lot of groups of individuals.
>>Where you and Phil see a single patrimony for us all, I see as many as
>>there are citizens.
>Just a dang minute, thar. I didn't say a single patrimony - just that we
>ought to have something in common - and that happens to come from
>the Western European tradition, especially the guvamint. That is a
>heritage we should all know something about regardless of what
>bit of soil was trodden by our ancestors. I never decried the worth of
>others' cultural heritage, or my own, for that matter. (BTW, I liked the
>canon law bit.)
You know, it just occurred to me that if I took the maternal half of
mine more seriously, I could relieve Nicola of the burden of some of
his -- it comes from the area around Ørlandet and Agdenes!
[...]
Brian