any connection between "Ainu" and "Inuit"?

[David Ladley]

I wonder if the names "Ainu" and "Inuit", which both mean "human being",
come from the same origin. I first wondered this when I saw a variation of
"Inuit", used by residents of the Aleutian islands, which reminded me a lot
of the name "Ainu". I forget the exact spelling. Keep in mind that the Ainu
may have once resided as far northeast as the Kamatchtaka penninsula, quite
near the native lands of the Inuit.

If these names are etymologically connected, could these two peoples be
related, at least linguistically, possibly even genetically? In any event,
I don't think it's a stretch to assume the two tribes have had contact and
trade over the centuries.

*** Dave Ladley *** lad...@midlebury.edu
"Which side of the tracks are you on?
Both sides, because the world is round."
-- Geggy Tah

[Floyd Davidson]

David Ladley <lad...@panther.middlebury.edu> wrote:
>I wonder if the names "Ainu" and "Inuit", which both mean
>"human being",

"Inuit" doesn't just mean "human being", it is much more complex
than that. In so many words, it means "real human being", but
in a sense that is very difficult to explain to people with a
Christian background. Inuit people are animist, and consider
that virtually everything you can concieve of as a separate
object has a separate spirit. Animals have spirits, and at one
time, long ago, were able to appear as humans (and some humans
could likewise transform to the appearance of an animal). The
word Inuit refers to a human who owns a human spirit, hence a
"real human being".

>come from the same origin. I first wondered this when I saw a
>variation of "Inuit", used by residents of the Aleutian
>islands, which reminded me a lot of the name "Ainu". I forget
>the exact spelling. Keep in mind that the Ainu may have once
>resided as far northeast as the Kamatchtaka penninsula, quite
>near the native lands of the Inuit.
>
>If these names are etymologically connected, could these two
>peoples be related, at least linguistically, possibly even
>genetically?

There is no known linguistic connection.

Genetically they very definitely are not related. Inuit Eskimos
(and Yupik Eskimos), as well as the Unangan (Aleuts) who are
derived from the same genetic stock as Eskimos, are the most
"mongoloid" Native people in North America. That means they are
the least similar to the Ainu of all Native Americans!

> In any event, I don't think it's a stretch to
>assume the two tribes have had contact and trade over the
>centuries.

That is true. There is no question that the Eskimo people in
Alaska and Siberia, along with other Natives in both places
(e.g., the Chukchi in Siberia and the Athabaskans in Alaska)
were trading with Japan, China, Mongolia, and Russia to the
west, all the way to California to the south, and after the
migrated into Greenland they were trading with the Norse for
some time prior to Norse attempts to settle Greenland or
Russian attempts to settle in Alaska.

Floyd

--
Floyd L. Davidson fl...@ptialaska.net
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) fl...@barrow.com
North Slope images: <http://www.ptialaska.net/~floyd>

[Egbert Lenderink]

Floyd Davidson wrote:
>
> That is true. There is no question that the Eskimo people in
> Alaska and Siberia, along with other Natives in both places
> (e.g., the Chukchi in Siberia and the Athabaskans in Alaska)
> were trading with Japan, China, Mongolia, and Russia to the
> west, all the way to California to the south, and after the
> migrated into Greenland they were trading with the Norse for
> some time prior to Norse attempts to settle Greenland or
> Russian attempts to settle in Alaska.
>

I'm not sure about the Greenland part... Most books on Greenlandic
history that I read state that the Norse settled in a part of Southern
Greenland that was uninhabited at that time, and only later made contact
with the Inuit who had at more or less the same time (900-1000 AD)
settled in Northern Greenland. Not much is known about the nature of
their contacts, but it is suspected that the 'culture clash' of
travelling hunters and settled sheep farmers has not been very friendly.

Some centuries later, after the Norse settlements had disappeared but
before the Danes came in, there was some trade (mostly guns vs.
sealskins) between the Greenland Inuit and European whalers of various
nationalities.

Egbert.

--

This message reflects my personal opinions only, not necessarily those
of the company I work for.

[Floyd Davidson]

Egbert Lenderink <lend...@natlab.research.philips.com> wrote:
>Floyd Davidson wrote:
>>
>> That is true. There is no question that the Eskimo people in
>> Alaska and Siberia, along with other Natives in both places
>> (e.g., the Chukchi in Siberia and the Athabaskans in Alaska)
>> were trading with Japan, China, Mongolia, and Russia to the
>> west, all the way to California to the south, and after the
>> migrated into Greenland they were trading with the Norse for
>> some time prior to Norse attempts to settle Greenland or
>> Russian attempts to settle in Alaska.
>
>I'm not sure about the Greenland part... Most books on
>Greenlandic history that I read state that the Norse settled in
>a part of Southern Greenland that was uninhabited at that time,
>and only later made contact with the Inuit who had at more or
>less the same time (900-1000 AD) settled in Northern Greenland.

That is basically true, but leaves out a great deal. Greenland
had supported Dorset Eskimo people for perhaps 3000 years by
that time. The first Norsemen to reach Greenland didn't find
Eskimos on the southern tip of Greenland, but they did find a
great deal of evidence that humans had lived there in the past.
It is entirely likely that the first Eskimos that Norsemen met
in Greenland were the last of the Dorset people. Later when
their contacts with Eskimo people were increasing, it was with
Thule Eskimo people who moved into Greenland at the peak of
their expansion.

The Norsemen went all the way to Newfoundland, and an
archaeological site at L'Anse aux Meadows was found in the early
1960's though it was years before it was proven to be exactly
that. It is unknown if the local people they met would have
been Indians at the northern edge of their range, or Eskimos at
the southern edge of their range. It is known that the Norsemen
killed a few of them, and in return were attacked by a larger
number.

It is known that the colonies in Greenland were the result of
settlers following the path that others had taken previously.
How many had gone previously and to what extent they actually
explored Greenland, or North America is not known.

> Not much is known about the nature of
>their contacts, but it is suspected that the 'culture clash' of
>travelling hunters and settled sheep farmers has not been very friendly.

The known clashes were between Vikings (not exactly sheep
farmers!), who did not have any history of peaceful co-existence
with anyone. Eric the Red left Norway in the 980's because of
killings he was involved in. He went to Iceland, where he
married and had a son name Leif Eriksson. He was eventually
banned from Iceland due to involvement in more killings. He
left Iceland bound for a land that a fellow named Gunnbjrn
Ulf-Krakuson had sited to the west. He ended up in Greenland,
and later Leif went to Newfoundland.

However the Greenland colonies did last for quite some time,
though contact with Europe was lost for many years. Eventually
the Church, in need of "support" sent expeditions to collect
taxes. They found abandoned colonies, but no evidence
indicating the fate of the colonists. It was, in those days, to
the advantage of the Church to claim that the colonies had been
massacred by Eskimos. Since then there have always been some
people who assume that it was true, but in fact there is no
reason to believe that there was any warfare at all, and the
most likely scenario is actually the exact opposite. The
climate was changing towards a mini ice-age, and the grain based
economy of farmers in Greenland most likely failed completely.
It is very likely that the colonists were merely assimilated
into the Inuit population and ceased to exist.

>Some centuries later, after the Norse settlements had
>disappeared but before the Danes came in, there was some trade
>(mostly guns vs. sealskins) between the Greenland Inuit and
>European whalers of various nationalities.
>
>Egbert.

[Egbert Lenderink]

Floyd Davidson wrote:

>
> Egbert Lenderink <lend...@natlab.research.philips.com> wrote:
> >I'm not sure about the Greenland part... Most books on
> >Greenlandic history that I read state that the Norse settled in
> >a part of Southern Greenland that was uninhabited at that time,
> >and only later made contact with the Inuit who had at more or
> >less the same time (900-1000 AD) settled in Northern Greenland.
>
> That is basically true, but leaves out a great deal. Greenland
> had supported Dorset Eskimo people for perhaps 3000 years by
> that time. The first Norsemen to reach Greenland didn't find
> Eskimos on the southern tip of Greenland, but they did find a
> great deal of evidence that humans had lived there in the past.
> It is entirely likely that the first Eskimos that Norsemen met
> in Greenland were the last of the Dorset people. Later when
> their contacts with Eskimo people were increasing, it was with
> Thule Eskimo people who moved into Greenland at the peak of
> their expansion.

Thanks for filling me in. For what I remembered, the Dorset culture had
long disappeared when the first Norse settlers came in.

> > Not much is known about the nature of
> >their contacts, but it is suspected that the 'culture clash' of
> >travelling hunters and settled sheep farmers has not been very friendly.
>

> It was, in those days, to
> the advantage of the Church to claim that the colonies had been
> massacred by Eskimos. Since then there have always been some
> people who assume that it was true, but in fact there is no
> reason to believe that there was any warfare at all, and the
> most likely scenario is actually the exact opposite. The
> climate was changing towards a mini ice-age, and the grain based
> economy of farmers in Greenland most likely failed completely.
> It is very likely that the colonists were merely assimilated
> into the Inuit population and ceased to exist.
>

I never meant to imply that the Norse were brutally chased away or
massacred by the Inuit, as has indeed been suggested in earlier days
when the world population was still 'conveniently' :-( sorted into
civilised people and savages. It might just as well have been the other
way round: the Norse starting the aggression when they met the first
wandering hunters from the North, while life was hard enough already
when they were the only people living off that land.

As to what is 'the most likely scenario', well I think nobody really
knows. For the idea of peaceful assimilation there is even less evidence
than for the warfare scenario (and we know from history that warfare is,
alas, all too likely when two cultures meet), and to suppose peaceful
coexistence now smells a bit too PC to me. But I'm always interested if
someone knows any 'latest news' on Greenlandic history and can present
some evidence one way or the other!

[David Ladley]

> As to what is 'the most likely scenario', well I think nobody really
> knows. For the idea of peaceful assimilation there is even less evidence
> than for the warfare scenario (and we know from history that warfare is,
> alas, all too likely when two cultures meet), and to suppose peaceful
> coexistence now smells a bit too PC to me. But I'm always interested if
> someone knows any 'latest news' on Greenlandic history and can present
> some evidence one way or the other!

I know very little about Greenlandic history, but I have a suggestion:
The Norsemen were probably not massacred, because it seems to me that in
such a cold climate, their remains would be preserved at least reasonably
well for the next batch of settlers to see.

Perhaps, stricken with famine and cold, and not knowing much about the
geography of Greenland, the Norsemen ventured into the interior, not
knowing that it was nothing but a dome of ice for thousands of miles.
Perhaps they thought the interior ice dome was just a small glacier they
could scale (as in Iceland or Norway), and if they went far enough, they'd
find a habitable valley or something. When they got too far into the
interior, they ran out of supplies and perished, and their remains have
since been covered over by successive layers of ice and snow. The interior
of Greenland has not been intensely explored, so perhaps their bodies and
supplies are still yet to be found. Is this a plausible theory?

Another is that maybe, along the same lines, the few surviving Norsemen
tried to build a makeshift boat and sail away with as many supplies and
loved ones' remains as they could carry (why let their dead lie on savage
lands?!). But their shipbuilding supplies were scarce and of poor quality,
so the boat(s) didn't get far before sinking.

[Mike Cleven]

On 3 May 1999 04:44:57 GMT, fl...@tanana.polarnet.com (Floyd Davidson)
wrote:

>
>David Ladley <lad...@panther.middlebury.edu> wrote:
>>I wonder if the names "Ainu" and "Inuit", which both mean
>>"human being",
>
>"Inuit" doesn't just mean "human being", it is much more complex
>than that. In so many words, it means "real human being", but
>in a sense that is very difficult to explain to people with a
>Christian background. Inuit people are animist, and consider
>that virtually everything you can concieve of as a separate
>object has a separate spirit. Animals have spirits, and at one
>time, long ago, were able to appear as humans (and some humans
>could likewise transform to the appearance of an animal). The
>word Inuit refers to a human who owns a human spirit, hence a
>"real human being".

Floyd's the northern expert, but he missed a point here: "Inuit" is
the plural of "Inuk", which is a "real human being". And there are
many native languages where the word for one of their nation means
"human being", some even more similar to Ainu than that - the Innu of
Labrador (a native people, not Inuit); on the shore of the farther
ocean from that occupied by the Ainu, however.....

>
>>come from the same origin. I first wondered this when I saw a
>>variation of "Inuit", used by residents of the Aleutian
>>islands, which reminded me a lot of the name "Ainu". I forget
>>the exact spelling. Keep in mind that the Ainu may have once
>>resided as far northeast as the Kamatchtaka penninsula, quite
>>near the native lands of the Inuit.
>>
>>If these names are etymologically connected, could these two
>>peoples be related, at least linguistically, possibly even
>>genetically?
>
>There is no known linguistic connection.
>
>Genetically they very definitely are not related. Inuit Eskimos
>(and Yupik Eskimos), as well as the Unangan (Aleuts) who are
>derived from the same genetic stock as Eskimos, are the most
>"mongoloid" Native people in North America. That means they are
>the least similar to the Ainu of all Native Americans!
>
>> In any event, I don't think it's a stretch to
>>assume the two tribes have had contact and trade over the
>>centuries.
>

>That is true. There is no question that the Eskimo people in
>Alaska and Siberia, along with other Natives in both places
>(e.g., the Chukchi in Siberia and the Athabaskans in Alaska)
>were trading with Japan, China, Mongolia, and Russia to the
>west, all the way to California to the south, and after the
>migrated into Greenland they were trading with the Norse for
>some time prior to Norse attempts to settle Greenland or
>Russian attempts to settle in Alaska.
>

> Floyd

Mike Cleven
http://members.home.net/ironmtn/

The thunderbolt steers all things.
- Herakleitos

[Mike Cleven]

On 3 May 1999 16:00:44 GMT, "David Ladley"
<lad...@panther.middlebury.edu> wrote:

>> As to what is 'the most likely scenario', well I think nobody really
>> knows. For the idea of peaceful assimilation there is even less evidence
>> than for the warfare scenario (and we know from history that warfare is,
>> alas, all too likely when two cultures meet), and to suppose peaceful
>> coexistence now smells a bit too PC to me. But I'm always interested if
>> someone knows any 'latest news' on Greenlandic history and can present
>> some evidence one way or the other!
>
>I know very little about Greenlandic history, but I have a suggestion:
>The Norsemen were probably not massacred, because it seems to me that in
>such a cold climate, their remains would be preserved at least reasonably
>well for the next batch of settlers to see.

Or eaten by the wildlife......edible protein being rather scarce in
the Arctic....

>
>Perhaps, stricken with famine and cold, and not knowing much about the
>geography of Greenland, the Norsemen ventured into the interior, not
>knowing that it was nothing but a dome of ice for thousands of miles.
>Perhaps they thought the interior ice dome was just a small glacier they
>could scale (as in Iceland or Norway), and if they went far enough, they'd
>find a habitable valley or something. When they got too far into the
>interior, they ran out of supplies and perished, and their remains have
>since been covered over by successive layers of ice and snow. The interior
>of Greenland has not been intensely explored, so perhaps their bodies and
>supplies are still yet to be found. Is this a plausible theory?

No; there is less icecap now than there was then; the Norse colonies
disappeared during the late medieval cooling spell, when Greenland's
climate became too harsh to survive; and the Norse would not change
their eating habits. They became diminished in stature by
malnutrition, which also suggests higher infertility.

There was no "scaling" of the icefields of Iceland, the larger of
which lie atop sub-ice volcanoes and do not constitute traversable
icefields for various reasons associated with this vulcanism. The
icefields of Dovre and Jotunheimen in Norway were also not typically
frequented by the Norse, who regarded them as unforgiving abodes of
the frost giants and other troll-races.....

>
>Another is that maybe, along the same lines, the few surviving Norsemen
>tried to build a makeshift boat and sail away with as many supplies and
>loved ones' remains as they could carry (why let their dead lie on savage
>lands?!). But their shipbuilding supplies were scarce and of poor quality,
>so the boat(s) didn't get far before sinking.

Made of woven peat? There was NO timber to be had in Greenland; nor
firewood. Inflated sheep's intestines, perhaps?

[Florian Eichhorn]

Ref. David Ladleys and Floyd Davidsons guess on the fate of the norse
settlers on the westbanks of Greenland.
Both of You are right. The climate detoriated again, which led to an end of
agriculture and consequently to an end of the settlements. At the occassion
of aracheologic research in the 1960ies, settlers graves have been found and

examinated. I can not recall the sources (part were elder TIME life?! in my
school time in the 70ies) but it stated: skeletons as well as complete
frozen
bodies were found in the graves in permafrost zones. Point is, that every
space of non-frozen land was needed for agriculture. So graveyards often
were
in the non-usefull area. Both skeletons and frozen bodies showed clear
evidence of detoriating nourishment: smaller bodies with weak bones and
teeth, those traces increasing with younger graves. I think a report says
that 14th century visitors found some few, weak remaining settlers, and put
them back.
By the way, there must have been another settlement site in North America
besides L'Anse aux Meadows. I recall a photograph of a solid part of a of a
stone watchtower found out to be from the Vikings times after closer
archeologic examination. The locals thought it to be from the 17/18th
century
colonial period. Anybody can give details?
I am by no way a specialist in this field, but its interesting anyway.
ĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆĆ
:-D This is a 100% Apple MacintoshT processed message.
Escape the dark side (Psycho NT - Gill Bates Motel). Instead,
visit "www.jonimitchell.com" - and have a good time. Natch!

[Reuben Muns]

"David Ladley" <lad...@panther.middlebury.edu> wrote:

>I wonder if the names "Ainu" and "Inuit", which both mean "human being",

>come from the same origin.

Many people call themselves "the people" -- for example the
Navajo call themselves "Dine'". I suspect there is absolutely no
connection.

Reuben

[Øystein Brekke]

The norse colonies in Greenland were established around the turn of the
millennium, and probably lasted until some time in the 15th century, which is
actually longer than the european settlement in North America has lasted - so
it is likely that the last norsemen there knew their land quite well, and also
didn't think of it as savage lands any more. By the way, I find it interesting
to think about what their language was like at that time, when they had had no
outside contact for a hundred years or more...

David Ladley wrote:

> > As to what is 'the most likely scenario', well I think nobody really
> > knows. For the idea of peaceful assimilation there is even less evidence
> > than for the warfare scenario (and we know from history that warfare is,
> > alas, all too likely when two cultures meet), and to suppose peaceful
> > coexistence now smells a bit too PC to me. But I'm always interested if
> > someone knows any 'latest news' on Greenlandic history and can present
> > some evidence one way or the other!
>
> I know very little about Greenlandic history, but I have a suggestion:
> The Norsemen were probably not massacred, because it seems to me that in
> such a cold climate, their remains would be preserved at least reasonably
> well for the next batch of settlers to see.
>

> Perhaps, stricken with famine and cold, and not knowing much about the
> geography of Greenland, the Norsemen ventured into the interior, not
> knowing that it was nothing but a dome of ice for thousands of miles.
> Perhaps they thought the interior ice dome was just a small glacier they
> could scale (as in Iceland or Norway), and if they went far enough, they'd
> find a habitable valley or something. When they got too far into the
> interior, they ran out of supplies and perished, and their remains have
> since been covered over by successive layers of ice and snow. The interior
> of Greenland has not been intensely explored, so perhaps their bodies and
> supplies are still yet to be found. Is this a plausible theory?
>

> Another is that maybe, along the same lines, the few surviving Norsemen
> tried to build a makeshift boat and sail away with as many supplies and
> loved ones' remains as they could carry (why let their dead lie on savage
> lands?!). But their shipbuilding supplies were scarce and of poor quality,
> so the boat(s) didn't get far before sinking.
>

[rayerr...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 2, 1999 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, David Ladley wrote:
> I wonder if the names "Ainu" and "Inuit", which both mean "human being",

> come from the same origin. I first wondered this when I saw a variation of
> "Inuit", used by residents of the Aleutian islands, which reminded me a lot
> of the name "Ainu". I forget the exact spelling. Keep in mind that the Ainu
> may have once resided as far northeast as the Kamatchtaka penninsula, quite
> near the native lands of the Inuit.
>
> If these names are etymologically connected, could these two peoples be

> related, at least linguistically, possibly even genetically? In any event,

> I don't think it's a stretch to assume the two tribes have had contact and
> trade over the centuries.
>

> *** Dave Ladley *** lad...@midlebury.edu
> "Which side of the tracks are you on?
> Both sides, because the world is round."
> -- Geggy Tah

and what about the Innu people (Nova Scotia)?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <4165c166-0107-4691...@googlegroups.com>, on

All these very superficial resemblences are coincidental.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Actually northern Quebec and Labrador.

It is interesting that "Ainu", "Inuk/Inuit" and "Innu" apparently all
mean something like "people", even though the three languages are not
known to be related. In other words, language resemblances do not go
much beyond this one word. Any broader conclusions about relations
between peoples would have to be based on a lot more evidence.

The Innu (Montagnais-Neskapi) speak an Algonquian language, part
of a large family stretching across central North America. But given
that they are immediate neighbours of the Inuit, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the word could have been borrowed from there.

[Daud Deden]

-

Per Brian Colless:
yad@Phoenic., Sinai: forearm,
yad@Phoenic., Canaan: hand,
yod@Hebrew: hand iota/Greek Y.
-
Yad@Phoenician: forearm-hand ~
Tadlimat@Inuit: forearm-hand ~ (also Tanliman)
Tanganlima@Malay: hand-5
Terima@Malay: given/received by hand
Teruma@Hebrew: priest lift gifts & altar ashes
sYaduof@Arabic: lift/lever water aloft
loftsPatel@Dutch: ladel, lift water
atlatl@Aztec: dart launcher/spear thrower from *xYadladl? (guess)

Khotan@Ainu: village
Khotan, a silk road town in Tarim Basin, West China
Canata@Iroquois: village -> Canada
Kota@Malay: fortified town

Ainu AKA Utari (AKA Ezo?)

Japanese Katakana script ~ Hebrew (block) script (via Khazars 7th C.?)
bottom table: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2014/12/linguistic-sharing.html
-

Did the Ainu, Innu & Inuit all use dogs to pull sleds?

Inu@Japanese: dog

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <d2c62ebf-22ac-4395...@googlegroups.com>, on

The Khazars were confined to what is now Eastern Ukraine and by proxy
to parts of what is now NW Kazakhstan

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

That's kotan.

> Khotan, a silk road town in Tarim Basin, West China

Place-name resemblances are of close to zero interest unless you
know something about their etymology.

> Canata@Iroquois: village -> Canada
> Kota@Malay: fortified town

That's Sanskrit too.

> Ainu AKA Utari (AKA Ezo?)

They (also) call themselves Utari, the Japanese called them Ezo, so....?

> Japanese Katakana script ~ Hebrew (block) script (via Khazars 7th C.?)
> bottom table: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2014/12/linguistic-sharing.html

This is completely wacky. Where did you dig it up from? Kana derivation from Chinese characters is very clear.

[Daud Deden]

Not from what I've read. Khotan.

> > Khotan, a silk road town in Tarim Basin, West China
>
> Place-name resemblances are of close to zero interest unless you
> know something about their etymology.

What do you know about Khotan's etymology, Ross?

~ Khotan/goati@Finn:cone tent/honai@Papua:cone lodge, hut/cottage/shed/shield/*Xyuatla/XyUAmbuangDuALuA

> > Canata@Iroquois: village -> Canada
> > Kota@Malay: fortified town
>
> That's Sanskrit too.

Of course, but is it Khotanese?

> > Ainu AKA Utari (AKA Ezo?)
>
> They (also) call themselves Utari, the Japanese called them Ezo, so....?

Exonym:Ezo

>
> > Japanese Katakana script ~ Hebrew (block) script (via Khazars 7th C.?)
> > bottom table: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2014/12/linguistic-sharing.html
>
> This is completely wacky. Where did you dig it up from? Kana derivation from Chinese characters is very clear.

How silly, Ross. Take off your blinders, please. Then your earplugs. Then, think.

>
> > Did the Ainu, Innu & Inuit all use dogs to pull sleds?
> >
> > Inu@Japanese: dog

??

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Someday perhaps you'll reveal "what you have read".

> > > Khotan, a silk road town in Tarim Basin, West China
> >
> > Place-name resemblances are of close to zero interest unless you
> > know something about their etymology.
>
> What do you know about Khotan's etymology, Ross?

Nothing.

> ~ Khotan/goati@Finn:cone tent/honai@Papua:cone lodge, hut/cottage/shed/shield/*Xyuatla/XyUAmbuangDuALuA

More imaginary languages making imaginary etymologies.
So where did you read about a language called "Papua"?

> > > Canata@Iroquois: village -> Canada
> > > Kota@Malay: fortified town
> >
> > That's Sanskrit too.
>
> Of course, but is it Khotanese?
>
> > > Ainu AKA Utari (AKA Ezo?)
> >
> > They (also) call themselves Utari, the Japanese called them Ezo, so....?
>
> Exonym:Ezo

Of course.

> >
> > > Japanese Katakana script ~ Hebrew (block) script (via Khazars 7th C.?)
> > > bottom table: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2014/12/linguistic-sharing.html
> >
> > This is completely wacky. Where did you dig it up from? Kana derivation from Chinese characters is very clear.
>
> How silly, Ross. Take off your blinders, please. Then your earplugs. Then, think.

I can see and hear just fine, thanks. I'm afraid these faith-healer
exhortations to "Think!" and "Listen!" are just a sad attempt to explain to yourself why nobody else believes you.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 12:22:36 AM UTC+3, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> How silly, Ross. Take off your blinders, please. Then your earplugs. Then, think.

Has it ever occurred you to learn a whole language, vocabulary, grammar, and literature?

Now, has it ever occurred to you that Ross might just have learned one or more language that way?

Ponder upon this and ask yourself who might be wearing blinders here.

[Daud Deden]

Khotan@Ainu: village
Khotan@Aynu: a village/caravanserai/town in Tarim Basin along silk road
(Speculated)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ynu_people

I don't have their old lexicon.
The Äynu people call their language Äynú (ئەينۇ) [ɛjˈnu].
The only speakers of Äynu are adult men.
What is the (ancient) word for dog, people and village?
Aynu numbers are Persian.

>
> > > > Khotan, a silk road town in Tarim Basin, West China
> > >
> > > Place-name resemblances are of close to zero interest unless you
> > > know something about their etymology.
> >
> > What do you know about Khotan's etymology, Ross?
>
> Nothing.
>
> > ~ Khotan/goati@Finn:cone tent/honai@Papua:cone lodge, hut/cottage/shed/shield/*Xyuatla/XyUAmbuangDuALuA
>
> More imaginary languages making imaginary etymologies.
> So where did you read about a language called "Papua"?

http://www.papuatrekking.com/yali_tribe.html

>
> > > > Canata@Iroquois: village -> Canada
> > > > Kota@Malay: fortified town
> > >
> > > That's Sanskrit too.
> >
> > Of course, but is it Khotanese?
> >
> > > > Ainu AKA Utari (AKA Ezo?)
> > >
> > > They (also) call themselves Utari, the Japanese called them Ezo, so....?
> >
> > Exonym:Ezo
>
> Of course.
>
> > >
> > > > Japanese Katakana script ~ Hebrew (block) script (via Khazars 7th C.?)
> > > > bottom table: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2014/12/linguistic-sharing.html
> > >
> > > This is completely wacky. Where did you dig it up from? Kana derivation from Chinese characters is very clear.
> >
> > How silly, Ross. Take off your blinders, please. Then your earplugs. Then, think.
>
> I can see and hear just fine, thanks. I'm afraid these faith-healer
> exhortations to "Think!" and "Listen!" are just a sad attempt to explain to yourself why nobody else believes you.

I'm not seeking converts, Ross, just clear thinkers to discuss the reality of ancient languages.

[Daud Deden]

Thanks for your vast wisdom.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

That's what I corrected. Ainu (of Japan): kotan

> Khotan@Aynu: a village/caravanserai/town in Tarim Basin along silk road
> (Speculated)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ynu_people
>
> I don't have their old lexicon.
> The Äynu people call their language Äynú (ئەينۇ) [ɛjˈnu].
> The only speakers of Äynu are adult men.
> What is the (ancient) word for dog, people and village?
> Aynu numbers are Persian.

Äynu language
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Not to be confused with the Ainu language."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ynu_language

Too bad you didn't read that before you confused them.
So in Äynú (of China), a Turkic/Iranian contact language,
khotan means "village"? Or is it just the name of the city
right around where the Äynú speakers live?

>
> >
> > > > > Khotan, a silk road town in Tarim Basin, West China
> > > >
> > > > Place-name resemblances are of close to zero interest unless you
> > > > know something about their etymology.
> > >
> > > What do you know about Khotan's etymology, Ross?
> >
> > Nothing.
> >
> > > ~ Khotan/goati@Finn:cone tent/honai@Papua:cone lodge, hut/cottage/shed/shield/*Xyuatla/XyUAmbuangDuALuA
> >
> > More imaginary languages making imaginary etymologies.
> > So where did you read about a language called "Papua"?
>
> http://www.papuatrekking.com/yali_tribe.html

So it's actually the Yali language, and (according to this trekker-guy)
honai means "community houses". Nothing about cones, lodges or tents.

>
> >
> > > > > Canata@Iroquois: village -> Canada
> > > > > Kota@Malay: fortified town
> > > >
> > > > That's Sanskrit too.
> > >
> > > Of course, but is it Khotanese?
> > >
> > > > > Ainu AKA Utari (AKA Ezo?)
> > > >
> > > > They (also) call themselves Utari, the Japanese called them Ezo, so....?
> > >
> > > Exonym:Ezo
> >
> > Of course.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > Japanese Katakana script ~ Hebrew (block) script (via Khazars 7th C.?)
> > > > > bottom table: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2014/12/linguistic-sharing.html
> > > >
> > > > This is completely wacky. Where did you dig it up from? Kana derivation from Chinese characters is very clear.
> > >
> > > How silly, Ross. Take off your blinders, please. Then your earplugs. Then, think.
> >
> > I can see and hear just fine, thanks. I'm afraid these faith-healer
> > exhortations to "Think!" and "Listen!" are just a sad attempt to explain to yourself why nobody else believes you.
>
> I'm not seeking converts, Ross, just clear thinkers to discuss the reality of ancient languages.

You don't seem to be a terribly clear thinker yourself, so maybe you should
be a little less critical of others. As far as discussing goes, we've
basically done all we can do. You say "Ancient language was like this."
We say "You don't seem to have adequate evidence for that belief."
That's as far as it gets. If we were going to discuss the "reality", we
would all have to have a reality we believed in. Or are you expecting
someone to say "I don't think it's *Xuatla, it should be *Xuatlu"??

[Daud Deden]

I've only read "khotan"@Ainu:village, your claim of 'kotan' is so far unsupported. Do you have a reference?

>
> > Khotan@Aynu: a village/caravanserai/town in Tarim Basin along silk road
> > (Speculated)
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ynu_people
> >
> > I don't have their old lexicon.
> > The Äynu people call their language Äynú (ئەينۇ) [ɛjˈnu].
> > The only speakers of Äynu are adult men.
> > What is the (ancient) word for dog, people and village?
> > Aynu numbers are Persian.
>
> Äynu language
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> "Not to be confused with the Ainu language."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ynu_language

Of course, IMO they've been separated for thousands of years.

> Too bad you didn't read that before you confused them.

I didn't, I'd read that earlier, just like I read your claim that Hebrew & Katakana linkage is "wacky". No confusion on my part.

> So in Äynú (of China), a Turkic/Iranian contact language,
> khotan means "village"? Or is it just the name of the city
> right around where the Äynú speakers live?

"...of unknown origin" is at the tail of this article:

Eynu In Eastern Turkistan, we are confronted with a further intriguing phenomenon: the so-called Eynu language in the western part of Sinkiang. Its speaker groups, estimated to be less than 30,000, are sparsely distributed along the fringe of Taklamakan, predominantly living in the area between Kashgar and Yarkand. Some groups live east of Aqsu and in the Khotan region. Villages where Eynu are reported to live are Paynap (Yengihisar), Yengihisar, Chiltanlar (Yakan), Darvishlar (Qaraqash); Gervoz (Khotan); Tamighil (Lop); Qarchun (Qeriya); Uqadi (Chariya) and Quchar. (For general information, see LeeSmith 1996, Wurm 1997, Hayasi 2000.) The Eynu language is characterized by an extreme form of substrate influence, a large-scale introduction of foreign elements by imposition. Its speakers have copied a mainly Persian vocabulary into
The Turkic Linguistic Map 21

an Uyghur basic code, i.e. taken over the system of Uyghur, but partly retained the lexicon of their original primary language. The phonology, morphology and syntax are generally those of normal Uyghur, but the special vocabulary is not found there. Many of its elements belong to the basic vocabulary. Eynu is certainly an idiom formed under unusual socio-communicative conditions. Some scholars have taken it to be a hybrid language, produced from two different languages, but it is obviously just an Uyghur variety with a special vocabulary of nonTurkic origin. Tooru Hayasi, Tokyo, has initiated a fıeld research project in order to record and describe the Eynu language. Together with Sabit Rozi, Tahirjan Muhammad and Wang Jianxin he has so far carried out fıeldwork in the villages Paynap, Tamighil and Gervoz. Hayasi (2000) has found that the speakers use it as a secret language during visits outside their own places of settlement. Previous researchers have believed that Eynu was used within the family and Uyghur outside the family. In reality, only adult men know this special language; they use it when they want to make their conversation unintelligible to outsiders, and they use normal Uyghur when this is unnecessary, e.g. at home. Actually, the designation Eynu is only used in one village Tamighil (Khotan). Local neighbors usually call the group Abdal, a word with a strongly discriminatory implication. The Eynu groups have generally been discriminated against in their local communities. Formerly some of them worked as peddlers, circumcisers or beggars. At present, most of them engage in agriculture. The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal groups in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Turkey, formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian and partly of unknown origin (Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).

As far as I can see, nobody seems to really know what it is nor how to properly define it. Aynu live around Khotan, Ainu live in Khotan/Kotan, both are dominated by outsiders and are losing their language.

>
> >
> > >
> > > > > > Khotan, a silk road town in Tarim Basin, West China
> > > > >
> > > > > Place-name resemblances are of close to zero interest unless you
> > > > > know something about their etymology.
> > > >
> > > > What do you know about Khotan's etymology, Ross?
> > >
> > > Nothing.
> > >
> > > > ~ Khotan/goati@Finn:cone tent/honai@Papua:cone lodge, hut/cottage/shed/shield/*Xyuatla/XyUAmbuangDuALuA
> > >
> > > More imaginary languages making imaginary etymologies.
> > > So where did you read about a language called "Papua"?
> >
> > http://www.papuatrekking.com/yali_tribe.html
>
> So it's actually the Yali language, and (according to this trekker-guy)
> honai means "community houses". Nothing about cones, lodges or tents.

Their roofs are described as conical, though they appear somewhat rounded. I read an article that claimed that Australians (tourist-marketing agents?) had locals build a honai, a cone-shaped men's lodge, for tourists, but the agents inserted a central column which was never done by Papuans. No tents.

> >
> > >
> > > > > > Canata@Iroquois: village -> Canada
> > > > > > Kota@Malay: fortified town
> > > > >
> > > > > That's Sanskrit too.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, but is it Khotanese?
> > > >
> > > > > > Ainu AKA Utari (AKA Ezo?)
> > > > >
> > > > > They (also) call themselves Utari, the Japanese called them Ezo, so....?
> > > >
> > > > Exonym:Ezo
> > >
> > > Of course.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Japanese Katakana script ~ Hebrew (block) script (via Khazars 7th C.?)
> > > > > > bottom table: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/2014/12/linguistic-sharing.html
> > > > >
> > > > > This is completely wacky. Where did you dig it up from? Kana derivation from Chinese characters is very clear.
> > > >
> > > > How silly, Ross. Take off your blinders, please. Then your earplugs. Then, think.
> > >
> > > I can see and hear just fine, thanks. I'm afraid these faith-healer
> > > exhortations to "Think!" and "Listen!" are just a sad attempt to explain to yourself why nobody else believes you.
> >
> > I'm not seeking converts, Ross, just clear thinkers to discuss the reality of ancient languages.
>
> You don't seem to be a terribly clear thinker yourself

Your perception is off, your marksmanship is spot-on.

, so maybe you should
> be a little less critical of others.

Thanks for your opinion.

As far as discussing goes, we've
> basically done all we can do. You say "Ancient language was like this."
> We say "You don't seem to have adequate evidence for that belief."
> That's as far as it gets. If we were going to discuss the "reality", we
> would all have to have a reality we believed in. Or are you expecting
> someone to say "I don't think it's *Xuatla, it should be *Xuatlu"??

Just a few good examples usually do it, from different distant languages of course. Too much focus on PIE leads to etymological inbreeding IMO.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Let's just recall what _your_ claim of "khotan" is supported by:
"I read it somewhere, can't remember where".
So it's up to me to find you a reference for the correct form???

If you google "ainu kotan" you will find quite a few thousand sites where
the word is mentioned or used (in English, Japanese, etc.) to refer to Ainu
villages (and nowadays cultural centres).
If you google "ainu khotan" you will find a much smaller number of sites, where the name of the Central Asian city happens to appear on the same page as the name of the people in Japan.

But let's say you wanted something specifically linguistic. You could try:

The Ainu Language: The Morphology and Syntax of the Shizunai Dialect, by
Kirsten Refsing (Aarhus University Press, 1986)
kotan ‘village’ pp. 95, 160, 272

The Genetic Relationship of the Ainu Language, by James Patrie (University
Press of Hawaii, 1982) kotan ‘village’ p.134 kotan ‘city’ p.129

A Reconstruction of Proto-Ainu, by Alexander Vovin (Brill, 1993)
Proto-Ainu *kOtan ‘village’ p.196

All of these are searchable on Google Books if you don't believe me,

Or you could look at the vocabulary here:

http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages/ainuenglish.html

which some helpful person has extracted from Shibatani's _Languages of Japan_.

> > Khotan@Aynu: a village/caravanserai/town in Tarim Basin along silk road
> > > (Speculated)
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ynu_people
> > >
> > > I don't have their old lexicon.
> > > The Äynu people call their language Äynú (ئەينۇ) [ɛjˈnu].
> > > The only speakers of Äynu are adult men.
> > > What is the (ancient) word for dog, people and village?
> > > Aynu numbers are Persian.
> >
> > Äynu language
> > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> > "Not to be confused with the Ainu language."
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ynu_language
>
> Of course, IMO they've been separated for thousands of years.
>
> > Too bad you didn't read that before you confused them.
>
> I didn't, I'd read that earlier, just like I read your claim that Hebrew & Katakana linkage is "wacky". No confusion on my part.
>
> > So in Äynú (of China), a Turkic/Iranian contact language,
> > khotan means "village"? Or is it just the name of the city
> > right around where the Äynú speakers live?
>
> "...of unknown origin" is at the tail of this article:
>
> Eynu In Eastern Turkistan, we are confronted with a further intriguing phenomenon: the so-called Eynu language in the western part of Sinkiang. Its speaker groups, estimated to be less than 30,000, are sparsely distributed along the fringe of Taklamakan, predominantly living in the area between Kashgar and Yarkand. Some groups live east of Aqsu and in the Khotan region. Villages where Eynu are reported to live are Paynap (Yengihisar), Yengihisar, Chiltanlar (Yakan), Darvishlar (Qaraqash); Gervoz (Khotan); Tamighil (Lop); Qarchun (Qeriya); Uqadi (Chariya) and Quchar. (For general information, see LeeSmith 1996, Wurm 1997, Hayasi 2000.) The Eynu language is characterized by an extreme form of substrate influence, a large-scale introduction of foreign elements by imposition. Its speakers have copied a mainly Persian vocabulary into
> The Turkic Linguistic Map 21
>
> an Uyghur basic code, i.e. taken over the system of Uyghur, but partly retained the lexicon of their original primary language. The phonology, morphology and syntax are generally those of normal Uyghur, but the special vocabulary is not found there. Many of its elements belong to the basic vocabulary. Eynu is certainly an idiom formed under unusual socio-communicative conditions. Some scholars have taken it to be a hybrid language, produced from two different languages, but it is obviously just an Uyghur variety with a special vocabulary of nonTurkic origin. Tooru Hayasi, Tokyo, has initiated a fıeld research project in order to record and describe the Eynu language. Together with Sabit Rozi, Tahirjan Muhammad and Wang Jianxin he has so far carried out fıeldwork in the villages Paynap, Tamighil and Gervoz. Hayasi (2000) has found that the speakers use it as a secret language during visits outside their own places of settlement. Previous researchers have believed that Eynu was used within the family and Uyghur outside the family. In reality, only adult men know this special language; they use it when they want to make their conversation unintelligible to outsiders, and they use normal Uyghur when this is unnecessary, e.g. at home. Actually, the designation Eynu is only used in one village Tamighil (Khotan). Local neighbors usually call the group Abdal, a word with a strongly discriminatory implication. The Eynu groups have generally been discriminated against in their local communities. Formerly some of them worked as peddlers, circumcisers or beggars. At present, most of them engage in agriculture. The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal groups in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Turkey, formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian and partly of unknown origin (Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).
>
> As far as I can see, nobody seems to really know what it is nor how to properly define it. Aynu live around Khotan, Ainu live in Khotan/Kotan, both are dominated by outsiders and are losing their language.

....like a few thousand other ethno-linguistic groups in today's world.
So what do you conclude from this?

> > > > > > > Khotan, a silk road town in Tarim Basin, West China
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Place-name resemblances are of close to zero interest unless you
> > > > > > know something about their etymology.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you know about Khotan's etymology, Ross?
> > > >
> > > > Nothing.
> > > >
> > > > > ~ Khotan/goati@Finn:cone tent/honai@Papua:cone lodge, hut/cottage/shed/shield/*Xyuatla/XyUAmbuangDuALuA
> > > >
> > > > More imaginary languages making imaginary etymologies.
> > > > So where did you read about a language called "Papua"?
> > >
> > > http://www.papuatrekking.com/yali_tribe.html
> >
> > So it's actually the Yali language, and (according to this trekker-guy)
> > honai means "community houses". Nothing about cones, lodges or tents.
>
> Their roofs are described as conical,

By whom? I don't find the word "cone" or "conical" on that page. The huts are simply described as "round".

though they appear somewhat rounded. I read an article that claimed that Australians (tourist-marketing agents?) had locals build a honai, a cone-shaped men's lodge, for tourists, but the agents inserted a central column which was never done by Papuans.

Oh dear, more "I read somewhere..."? The story seems most unlikely, since
the Yali live in the Indonesian part of New Guinea.

No tents.

That was my point. "cone lodge" is a gloss made up by you to fit your
daisy chain.

Yes, it's obvious they do it for you. The problem is they don't do it
for anybody else.

Too much focus on PIE leads to etymological inbreeding IMO.

I focus on PIE only when it's appropriate.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 5:48:12 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> If you google "ainu kotan" you will find quite a few thousand sites where
> the word is mentioned or used (in English, Japanese, etc.) to refer to Ainu
> villages (and nowadays cultural centres).
> If you google "ainu khotan" you will find a much smaller number of sites, where the name of the Central Asian city happens to appear on the same page as the name of the people in Japan.
> But let's say you wanted something specifically linguistic. You could try:
> The Ainu Language: The Morphology and Syntax of the Shizunai Dialect, by
> Kirsten Refsing (Aarhus University Press, 1986)
> kotan ‘village’ pp. 95, 160, 272
> The Genetic Relationship of the Ainu Language, by James Patrie (University
> Press of Hawaii, 1982) kotan ‘village’ p.134 kotan ‘city’ p.129
> A Reconstruction of Proto-Ainu, by Alexander Vovin (Brill, 1993)
> Proto-Ainu *kOtan ‘village’ p.196
> All of these are searchable on Google Books if you don't believe me,
> Or you could look at the vocabulary here:
>
> http://www.raccoonbend.com/languages/ainuenglish.html
>
> which some helpful person has extracted from Shibatani's _Languages of Japan_.

Which I'd suggest as a more user-friendly introduction to Ainu. IIRC the book
is fairly evenly divided between Ainu and Japanese.

[Daud Deden]

Ross, a note:

Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.

Significance:
The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).

[Daud Deden]

-
Khotan (Hotan) NW China early trade
Encyclopedic Dictionary of Archaeology
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0306461587
Barbara Ann Kipfer - 2000 - ‎Social Science
-
These people were direct ancestors of modern/historical Ainu and they set ... in the language of Gold – hoton, in Manchurian language – hotan
Tresi Nonno: Early history of Japan
tresi-nonno.blogspot.com/2012/08/early-history-of-japan.html

this might be of interest:

"Ainu word kotan – "settlement", "inhabited area" exists in Old Mongolian as gotan, in the language of Gold – hoton, in Manchurian language – hotan, in Nivkh language – hoton." 

So the (g/k/h/kh) + ot(a/o)n is reasonable. But as you say, kotan is the normal Ainu word for settlement. However, I recall reading an article by an Ainu person complaining that Japanese has influenced pronunciation of Ainu, producing syllable-based words, and that "Old" Ainu had different pronunciations. "Khotan" may have been Old Ainu, but I don't recall reading that description, so I don't know.

Purely guessing, khotan from *ghuatlua(n) = hut + plural, derived from (mbua)ngdualua, so related to ger@Mongolian: yurt & gara@Tigrinha: hill & hogan@Navajo: underground hut & kurgan@Lithuanian (resting place?)

Also: "Pimiko queen of Yamatai is a name of Ainu origin, originally it was Pi mik kur - Person who solves problems and barks)"

[Daud Deden]

-

And this: did Japanese influence the Ainu pronunciation?

Koropokkuru are a race of small people in Ainu folklore. The name is traditionally analyzed as a tripartite compound of kor or koro ("butterbur plant"), pok ("under, below"), and kur or kuru ("person") and interpreted to mean "people below the leaves of the butterbur plant" in the Ainu language.

The Ainu believe that the Koropokkuru were the people who lived in the Ainu's land before the Ainu themselves lived there. They were short of stature, agile and skilled at fishing. They lived in pits with roofs made from butterbur leaves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petasites_japonicus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koro-pok-guru

[Note: That matches the typical Pygmy hut, except they are made above ground.]

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> Ross, a note:
>
> Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.

But "Papua" is not a language. Even if it's common in Papua (by which
I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea) it must be from
some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:

https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai

> Significance:
> The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).

You don't even know that the city-name Khotan comes from the Eynu language,
let alone that it is part of this "unknown origin" component.

[DKleinecke]

I would read the evidence to say that the historic Koropokkuru
were an Ainu group with a different culture. The folklore K
reflects a different idea that merged with the historic memory.

Compare the little people of the British Islands.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:

> > Ross, a note:
> > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
>
> But "Papua" is not a language. Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea) it must be from
> some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:

The Indonesian part of New Guinea is West Irian. Papua is the southern half
of modern PNG, originally British New Guinea, later administered by Australia;
the northern half of PNG was German New Guinea, a British mandate after WWI.
Eventually they were united as Papua and New Guinea and now they're the nation
of Papua New Guinea.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 5:53:49 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 10:26:58 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Ross, a note:
> >
> > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> >
> > Significance:
> > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).
> -
> Khotan (Hotan) NW China early trade
> Encyclopedic Dictionary of Archaeology
> https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0306461587
> Barbara Ann Kipfer - 2000 - ‎Social Science


> -
> These people were direct ancestors of modern/historical Ainu and they set ...

"These people" referring to the earlist modern-human inhabitants of Japan.

in the language of Gold – hoton, in Manchurian language – hotan
> Tresi Nonno: Early history of Japan
> tresi-nonno.blogspot.com/2012/08/early-history-of-japan.html
>
> this might be of interest:
>
> "Ainu word kotan – "settlement", "inhabited area" exists in Old Mongolian as gotan, in the language of Gold – hoton, in Manchurian language – hotan, in Nivkh language – hoton." 

Tresi Nonno is pointing to evidence of contact between Ainu and neighbouring
languages to the north. If these words do exist, they could be cognates to the Ainu. Of course the Ainu word could be borrowed from Nivkh etc. rather than
the reverse, which TN seems to be assuming.

> So the (g/k/h/kh) + ot(a/o)n is reasonable. But as you say, kotan is the normal Ainu word for settlement. However, I recall reading an article by an Ainu person complaining that Japanese has influenced pronunciation of Ainu, producing syllable-based words, and that "Old" Ainu had different pronunciations. "Khotan" may have been Old Ainu, but I don't recall reading that description, so I don't know.

Vovin's reconstruction of *kOtan, based on all the known dialects,
suggests that there is no internal evidence for an earlier *kh-.
What evidence your complainer may have had, we don't know.

> Purely guessing, khotan from *ghuatlua(n) = hut + plural, derived from (mbua)ngdualua, so related to ger@Mongolian: yurt & gara@Tigrinha: hill & hogan@Navajo: underground hut & kurgan@Lithuanian (resting place?)
>
> Also: "Pimiko queen of Yamatai is a name of Ainu origin, originally it was Pi mik kur - Person who solves problems and barks)"

There are probably Ainu etymologies for lots of Japanese place-names
and other words. But I would not put a lot of weight on Tresi Nonno without
corroboration from other sources.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 9:56:07 AM UTC+13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > > Ross, a note:
> > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> >
> > But "Papua" is not a language. Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea) it must be from
> > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
>
> The Indonesian part of New Guinea is West Irian.

No longer. It now (since 2003) consists of two provinces, "West Papua" and "Papua". For the confusing history of areas and their names see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Papua_(province)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_(province)

[Daud Deden]

On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Ross, a note:
> >
> > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
>
> But "Papua" is not a language.

No, it is a locale where honai are built.

Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)

Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman". I prefer Papua. Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?

it must be from
> some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
>
> https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai

"Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually built as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three types, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)

rumah@Malay: house
honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology or source language.

>
> > Significance:
> > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).
>
> You don't even know that the city-name Khotan comes from the Eynu language,
> let alone that it is part of this "unknown origin" component.

Exactly. It remains to be determined, but it seems not to be Persian or Turkic.

A thought, probably not connected, is this:

futon@Japanese: bedding ~ bet/beth@Hebrew: hut, beitz@Hebrew: nest/egg
khotan/goton/ng_d_ualua/gh_t_n/futon

[Daud Deden]

koropokguru ~ shimabukuro: Okinawa surname (a friend).
I suggest they were Jomon from south, small body frame initially, mixing with others... They were not Ainu (no broad leaf round huts). Possibly Hani Yellow leaf people @ Thailand?

[DKleinecke]

You will not be accepted if you try to identify language with
hut shapes.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > Ross, a note:
> > >
> > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> >
> > But "Papua" is not a language.
>
> No, it is a locale where honai are built.
>
> Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
>
> Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".

No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?

I prefer Papua.

Papua literally means "frizzy-haired".

Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?

What I'm trying to get you to do is identify languages.

> it must be from
> > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
> >
> > https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai
>
> "Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually built as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three types, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)
>
> rumah@Malay: house
> honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology or source language.

It would appear to be a word that Indonesian (Malay) speakers use to
talk about Papuan traditional houses. So probably not used in Malaysia.
But probably in Papuan Malay. It's not in Kluge's vocabulary, but that's
pretty basic. As to the ultimate source, I don't know either.

> > Significance:
> > > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).
> >
> > You don't even know that the city-name Khotan comes from the Eynu language,
> > let alone that it is part of this "unknown origin" component.
>
> Exactly. It remains to be determined, but it seems not to be Persian or Turkic.
>
> A thought, probably not connected, is this:
>
> futon@Japanese: bedding ~ bet/beth@Hebrew: hut, beitz@Hebrew: nest/egg
> khotan/goton/ng_d_ualua/gh_t_n/futon

Futon appears to be of Chinese origin - cf. Mandarin pútuán 'Buddhist
prayer mat'

[Daud Deden]

No. However the use of large broad leaves (ngongo@Mbuti) to cover their dome huts is a cultural trait of Congo Pygmies. Most other people making dome huts use thatch or palm fronds. The Yali Pygmies of Baleum valley, Papua use thatch; the Mbabaram Pygmies of Barinean Lake region, Queensland used large banana leaves. The Koropokguru/Jomon of Japan (per Ainu oral history, likely Pygmies) used large broad leaves to cover their dome pit-huts.

I have mentioned the importance of architecture in Paleo-etymology studies.

[Daud Deden]

On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 8:19:15 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > Ross, a note:
> > > >
> > > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> > >
> > > But "Papua" is not a language.
> >
> > No, it is a locale where honai are built.
> >
> > Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
> >
> > Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".
>
> No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?

Ross, I remember it from reading the account of a Portuguese explorer that found a river full of shrimp, meeting some native women there, asking who/what tribe they were and their response in Lusu was 'guinea' which meant woman/women. The explorer had an unusual name later used to name an island.

"The origin of the term is uncertain. It entered English and other European languages by way of the Portuguese word Guiné, applied by fifteenth-century mariners to the African coast south of the Senegal River. How the term entered Portuguese is unknown."

Source: http://www.geocurrents.info/historical-geography/the-many-meanings-of-%e2%80%9cguinea%e2%80%9d#ixzz4xJRDCXI7

I must go, but will seek it.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 10:45:24 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 8:19:15 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > Ross, a note:
> > > > >
> > > > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> > > >
> > > > But "Papua" is not a language.
> > >
> > > No, it is a locale where honai are built.
> > >
> > > Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > > > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
> > >
> > > Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".
> >
> > No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?
>
> Ross, I remember it from reading the account of a Portuguese explorer that found a river full of shrimp, meeting some native women there, asking who/what tribe they were and their response in Lusu was 'guinea' which meant woman/women. The explorer had an unusual name later used to name an island.

Fernão do Pó?

> "The origin of the term is uncertain. It entered English and other European languages by way of the Portuguese word Guiné, applied by fifteenth-century mariners to the African coast south of the Senegal River. How the term entered Portuguese is unknown."
>
> Source: http://www.geocurrents.info/historical-geography/the-many-meanings-of-%e2%80%9cguinea%e2%80%9d#ixzz4xJRDCXI7

"It is believed the Portuguese borrowed Guineus from the Berber term
Ghinawen (sometimes Arabized as Guinauha or Genewah) meaning "the
burnt people" (analogous to the Classical Greek Aithiops, "of the
burned face"). The Berber terms "aginaw" and "Akal n-Iguinawen" mean
"black" and "land of the blacks", respectively.>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_(region)

None of the theories make reference to the alleged "Lusu" word for 'woman'.

[António Marques]

Portuguese turned -éa and -óa into the abominable -é and -ó before we
started going out a lot, so I'd doubt the word entered Europe via us
specifically.

[Daud Deden]

On Nov 1, 2017 8:19 PM, "benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > Ross, a note:
> > >
> > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> >
> > But "Papua" is not a language.
>
> No, it is a locale where honai are built.
>
> Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
>
> Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".

No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?

Cf. F. Po/Poo/Pò or his crewmate wrote of it.

I prefer Papua.

Papua/Papaua matches both Mbabaram@Queensland & Mamanwa@Philipines(denisovan genes), as well as (Zi/Xya)mbabwe & (Li)mpopo, all link to *ambua which is close to Mbo@Balinese: mother, and to ember/enburn/buni@Mbabaram: fire.
-

Papua literally means "frizzy-haired".

-
That is an 'overformation' or 'backformation'.
Rambut@Malay: hair
Buluh@Malay: feathers, fuzzy

Which language did you mean, literally?

Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?

What I'm trying to get you to do is identify languages.

Paleo-etymology recognizes Human language with numerous dialects. I asked you a question, you responded but did not answer. Why?

> it must be from
> > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
> >
> > https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai
>
> "Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually built as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three types, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)
>
> rumah@Malay: house
> honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology or source language.

It would appear to be a word that Indonesian (Malay) speakers use to
talk about Papuan traditional houses. So probably not used in Malaysia.
But probably in Papuan Malay. It's not in Kluge's vocabulary, but that's
pretty basic. As to the ultimate source, I don't know either.

So you might rethink the necessity of labelling every word with a language, if a region is more useful. Honai@Papua-undetermined: men's hut, though I prefer honai@Yali: men's hut.
'Honai' is not traditionally found outside Papua, so it should NEVER be called "Malay" or "Papuan Malay".

The only important thing to me is that it is distinct from the normal mongolu/mbuangualua/bungalo pattern, and has thatch not broad leaves on a conical-domicile top and seems closest to Maasai &
Pygmy huts.

> > Significance:
> > > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).
> >
> > You don't even know that the city-name Khotan comes from the Eynu language,
> > let alone that it is part of this "unknown origin" component.
>
> Exactly. It remains to be determined, but it seems not to be Persian or Turkic.
>
> A thought, probably not connected, is this:
>
> futon@Japanese: bedding ~ bet/beth@Hebrew: hut, beitz@Hebrew: nest/egg
> khotan/goton/ng_d_ualua/gh_t_n/futon

Futon appears to be of Chinese origin - cf. Mandarin pútuán 'Buddhist prayer mat'

That implies portability, rolled or folded, unrolled at inns, huts, caravanserais & temples.
pútuán/*p.hut.uan/(XYA)MbuAtLua(XYUA)(ignore CAPS)/ bútúa(n)
[related to bolo/peel and evolve].

Perhaps khotan/coton/cover, butuan/bottom/batten down?

You claim aithiops = the burned face, I claim it primarily derived from high-up ~ on high (= zion@Hebrew/tian@Chinese) re. the reddish high cliffs of Eritrea & Ethiopian highlands, but because the people there have red-brown skin it also was used secondarily in reference to them.

Which dialect of Berber, Tuareg?

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:28:45 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?

Myanmar and Burma are different-style forms of the same name.

The official language of Burma is traditionally called Burmese in English. It is based on the dialect of Irrawaddy valley, where there is a relatively unified variety widely used as a lingua franca.

You could actually look this up in an encyclopedia.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <59057b3e-756d-4e0b...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,

11/3/2017, Mscislaw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:28:45 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
>> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar
>> speak?
>
> Myanmar and Burma are different-style forms of the same name.

And both spellings are based on non-rhotic English, i.e. they assume
that the "r"s are not to be pronounced.

[Daud Deden]

Errata: Pygmy hut should be Khoisan hut: The only important thing to me is that it is distinct from the normal mongolu/mbuangualua/bungalo pattern, and has thatch not broad leaves on a conical-domicile top and seems closest to Maasai &
 Khoisan huts. Damn rushed typo. (Phone was near dead)

> <Edit: Khoisan> huts.

[Daud Deden]

Waiting for Ross's "Correct" answer, surely it is coming soon.

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 1:29:00 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> In <59057b3e-756d-4e0b...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
> 11/3/2017, Mscislaw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:28:45 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar
> >> speak?
> >
> > Myanmar and Burma are different-style forms of the same name.
>
> And both spellings are based on non-rhotic English, i.e. they assume
> that the "r"s are not to be pronounced.

Yes, thanks Yusuf. How are the non-rhotic "R"s detected aurally if not pronounced? Are they representative of glottal stops or tonal shifts or the (Viet style) inhaled d or L?

[Peter T. Daniels]

THEY DO NOT EXIST.

Have you never heard anyone with a British, or a Boston, or a "Brooklyn" accent
speak English?

THEY ARE NOT "DETECTED AURALLY."

British people write them to indicate the pronunciation of the preceding vowel.

(Bostonians and Brooklynites are clever enough not to try to stick them into
spellings of foreign words.)

"Burma" is pronounced something like /bama/ (listen to Ang San Su Chi).

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 1:00:25 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Nov 1, 2017 8:19 PM, "benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > Ross, a note:
> > > >
> > > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> > >
> > > But "Papua" is not a language.
> >
> > No, it is a locale where honai are built.
> >
> > Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
> >
> > Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".
>
> No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?
>
> Cf. F. Po/Poo/Pò or his crewmate wrote of it.

Unfortunately you have been unable to say where you read this. Even
if F.P. did write of a language called Lusu in which the word for
woman was "guinea", it does not follow that this word was the origin
of the geographical term "Guinea".

>
> I prefer Papua.
>
> Papua/Papaua matches both Mbabaram@Queensland & Mamanwa@Philipines(denisovan genes), as well as (Zi/Xya)mbabwe & (Li)mpopo, all link to *ambua which is close to Mbo@Balinese: mother, and to ember/enburn/buni@Mbabaram: fire.
> -
> Papua literally means "frizzy-haired".
> -
> That is an 'overformation' or 'backformation'.
> Rambut@Malay: hair
> Buluh@Malay: feathers, fuzzy
>
> Which language did you mean, literally?

It's a Malay word, probably eastern dialect. OED gives it as
papuah, pepuah 'frizzled'. It was the (Moluccan) Malay term for
the physically distinct people to the east.

1601 R. Hakluyt tr. A. Galvano Discov. World 70 The people
of Maluco call them Papuas, because they be blacke and friseled
in their haire.

> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?
>
> What I'm trying to get you to do is identify languages.
>
> Paleo-etymology recognizes Human language with numerous dialects. I asked you a question, you responded but did not answer. Why?

Which question are you talking about? The one about Burma/Myanmar?
I didn't answer it because it wasn't a real question.

> > it must be from
> > > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
> > >
> > > https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai
> >
> > "Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually built as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three types, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)
> >
> > rumah@Malay: house
> > honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology or source language.
>
> It would appear to be a word that Indonesian (Malay) speakers use to
> talk about Papuan traditional houses. So probably not used in Malaysia.
> But probably in Papuan Malay. It's not in Kluge's vocabulary, but that's
> pretty basic. As to the ultimate source, I don't know either.
>
> So you might rethink the necessity of labelling every word with a language, if a region is more useful.

Your region-labelling may be useful to you, since you have trouble remembering
where you picked things up. As the present case shows, it is not
useful to others. Does honai@Papua mean "in some language of Papua", or
"in a lot of languages all over Papua" or "in a language which is widely
used in Papua"? You may not care, but I do.

Honai@Papua-undetermined: men's hut, though I prefer honai@Yali: men's hut.

??! Even though the Yali themselves do not actually use the word in their
own language?

> 'Honai' is not traditionally found outside Papua, so it should NEVER be called "Malay" or "Papuan Malay".

Even stranger reasoning. Since you don't care about language differences,
why would you be so dogmatic about NEVER calling it Papuan Malay?

> The only important thing to me is that it is distinct from the normal mongolu/mbuangualua/bungalo pattern, and has thatch not broad leaves on a conical-domicile top and seems closest to Maasai &
> Pygmy huts.
>
> > > Significance:
> > > > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).
> > >
> > > You don't even know that the city-name Khotan comes from the Eynu language,
> > > let alone that it is part of this "unknown origin" component.
> >
> > Exactly. It remains to be determined, but it seems not to be Persian or Turkic.
> >
> > A thought, probably not connected, is this:
> >
> > futon@Japanese: bedding ~ bet/beth@Hebrew: hut, beitz@Hebrew: nest/egg
> > khotan/goton/ng_d_ualua/gh_t_n/futon
>
> Futon appears to be of Chinese origin - cf. Mandarin pútuán 'Buddhist prayer mat'
>
> That implies portability, rolled or folded, unrolled at inns, huts, caravanserais & temples.
> pútuán/*p.hut.uan/(XYA)MbuAtLua(XYUA)(ignore CAPS)/ bútúa(n)
> [related to bolo/peel and evolve].
>
> Perhaps khotan/coton/cover, butuan/bottom/batten down?
>
> You claim aithiops = the burned face,

I didn't claim it, OED's etymology mentioned it. The Greeks might
have claimed it, but I'm not surprised you wouldn't care.

I claim it primarily derived from high-up ~ on high (= zion@Hebrew/tian@Chinese) re. the reddish high cliffs of Eritrea & Ethiopian highlands, but because the people there have red-brown skin it also was used secondarily in reference to them.
>
> Which dialect of Berber, Tuareg?

I don't know; why do you ask?

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Nope. I'm not answering because it's a fake question. You are not actually
in search of information. (Mścisław has just given you the information and
you're still not satisfied.) It's a rhetorical appendage to your statement
that "Names [of languages and countries] change." We all know that. It does
not excuse your sloppiness with linguistic facts.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <59057b3e-756d-4e0b...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
11/3/2017, Mscislaw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:

It is also diglossic (like Arabic). "Myanmar" is from "High" variety,
"Burma" from "Low" variety.

FRom Wikipedia:

Burmese is a diglossic language with two distinguishable registers (or
diglossic varieties):[11]

Literary High (H) form[12] (မြန်မာစာ mranma ca): the high variety
(formal and written), used in literature (formal writing), newspapers,
radio broadcasts, and formal speeches
Spoken Low (L) form[12] (မြန်မာစကား mranma ca.ka:): the low variety
(informal and spoken), used in daily conversation, television, comics
and literature (informal writing)

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <59057b3e-756d-4e0b...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
11/3/2017, Mscislaw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:

> On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:28:45 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
>> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar
>> speak?
>
> Myanmar and Burma are different-style forms of the same name.
>
> The official language of Burma is traditionally called Burmese in English. It
> is based on the dialect of Irrawaddy valley, where there is a relatively
> unified variety widely used as a lingua franca.

Kachin Kayah Karen Chin Mon Rakhine Shan are recognized regional
languages.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Correction: Not OED, but Wikipedia ("Guinea (region)"), with a
reference to

Rogado Quintino (1965) "O problema da origem dos termos «Guiné»
e «Guinéus»", Boletim Cultural da Guiné portuguesa, vol. 20, no.78,
p.117-45.

The Greeks might
> have claimed it, but I'm not surprised you wouldn't care.

OED (s.v. Ethiop)

ancient Greek Αἰθιοπ- , Αἰθίοψ (noun and adjective) Ethiopian;
of uncertain origin. The prevailing view since antiquity was that
Αἰθίοψ derived < αἴθειν to light up, kindle (see aethionema n.) + ὄψ face
...and meant primarily ‘burnt-face’ (compare ancient Greek αἶθοψ
fiery-looking, in Hellenistic Greek also black;...the formation is
however not clear, and some have supposed the word to be a name of
pre-Greek origin, involving a different suffix; compare e.g. Δρύοπες , Δόλοπες , both names of peoples.

So hey, your story might be in with a chance!

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 3:39:23 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 2:58:33 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 1:29:00 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > > In <59057b3e-756d-4e0b...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
> > > 11/3/2017, Mscislaw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:28:45 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > >> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar
> > > >> speak?
> > > >
> > > > Myanmar and Burma are different-style forms of the same name.
> > >
> > > And both spellings are based on non-rhotic English, i.e. they assume
> > > that the "r"s are not to be pronounced.
> >
> > Yes, thanks Yusuf. How are the non-rhotic "R"s detected aurally if not pronounced? Are they representative of glottal stops or tonal shifts or the (Viet style) inhaled d or L?
>
> THEY DO NOT EXIST.

Havard/Havad.

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 4:44:22 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 1:00:25 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Nov 1, 2017 8:19 PM, "benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > Ross, a note:
> > > > >
> > > > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> > > >
> > > > But "Papua" is not a language.
> > >
> > > No, it is a locale where honai are built.
> > >
> > > Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > > > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
> > >
> > > Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".
> >
> > No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?
> >
> > Cf. F. Po/Poo/Pò or his crewmate wrote of it.
>
> Unfortunately you have been unable to say where you read this. Even
> if F.P. did write of a language called Lusu in which the word for
> woman was "guinea", it does not follow that this word was the origin
> of the geographical term "Guinea".

What I wrote is accurate.

>
> >
> > I prefer Papua.
> >
> > Papua/Papaua matches both Mbabaram@Queensland & Mamanwa@Philipines(denisovan genes), as well as (Zi/Xya)mbabwe & (Li)mpopo, all link to *ambua which is close to Mbo@Balinese: mother, and to ember/enburn/buni@Mbabaram: fire.
> > -
> > Papua literally means "frizzy-haired".

Wrong. Check.

> > -
> > That is an 'overformation' or 'backformation'.
> > Rambut@Malay: hair
> > Buluh@Malay: feathers, fuzzy
> >
> > Which language did you mean, literally?
>
> It's a Malay word

Wrong. Check.

, probably eastern dialect. OED gives it as
> papuah, pepuah 'frizzled'. It was the (Moluccan) Malay term for
> the physically distinct people to the east.

Wrong. Check.

>
> 1601 R. Hakluyt tr. A. Galvano Discov. World 70 The people
> of Maluco call them Papuas, because they be blacke and friseled
> in their haire.

Its a Fake Malay word. (There are others ascribed by colonialists) Papua is the place where they/their kin were from. The word "because" should be omitted.

> > Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?
> >
> > What I'm trying to get you to do is identify languages.
> >
> > Paleo-etymology recognizes Human language with numerous dialects. I asked you a question, you responded but did not answer. Why?
>
> Which question are you talking about? The one about Burma/Myanmar?
> I didn't answer it because it wasn't a real question.
>
> > > it must be from
> > > > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
> > > >
> > > > https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai
> > >
> > > "Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually built as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three types, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)
> > >
> > > rumah@Malay: house
> > > honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology or source language.
> >
> > It would appear to be a word that Indonesian (Malay) speakers use to
> > talk about Papuan traditional houses.

Then it is Indonesian. It is not Malay.

So probably not used in Malaysia.
> > But probably in Papuan Malay.

Because it is Papuan.

It's not in Kluge's vocabulary, but that's
> > pretty basic. As to the ultimate source, I don't know either.
> >
> > So you might rethink the necessity of labelling every word with a language, if a region is more useful.
>
> Your region-labelling may be useful to you, since you have trouble remembering
> where you picked things up.

Trouble? Nope.

As the present case shows, it is not
> useful to others. Does honai@Papua mean "in some language of Papua", or
> "in a lot of languages all over Papua" or "in a language which is widely
> used in Papua"? You may not care, but I do.

It is a Papuan word. Why is that so hard for you?

>
> Honai@Papua-undetermined: men's hut, though I prefer honai@Yali: men's hut.
>
> ??! Even though the Yali themselves do not actually use the word in their
> own language?

They do.

>
> > 'Honai' is not traditionally found outside Papua, so it should NEVER be called "Malay" or "Papuan Malay".
>
> Even stranger reasoning. Since you don't care about language differences,
> why would you be so dogmatic about NEVER calling it Papuan Malay?

Stop being silly. Honai is a Papuan word, it is not a Malay word. Malays in Papua use the word because they are in Papua.

>
> > The only important thing to me is that it is distinct from the normal mongolu/mbuangualua/bungalo pattern, and has thatch not broad leaves on a conical-domicile top and seems closest to Maasai &

> > (EDIT) KhoiSan huts.

> >
> > > > Significance:
> > > > > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).
> > > >
> > > > You don't even know that the city-name Khotan comes from the Eynu language,
> > > > let alone that it is part of this "unknown origin" component.
> > >
> > > Exactly. It remains to be determined, but it seems not to be Persian or Turkic.
> > >
> > > A thought, probably not connected, is this:
> > >
> > > futon@Japanese: bedding ~ bet/beth@Hebrew: hut, beitz@Hebrew: nest/egg
> > > khotan/goton/ng_d_ualua/gh_t_n/futon
> >
> > Futon appears to be of Chinese origin - cf. Mandarin pútuán 'Buddhist prayer mat'
> >
> > That implies portability, rolled or folded, unrolled at inns, huts, caravanserais & temples.
> > pútuán/*p.hut.uan/(XYA)MbuAtLua(XYUA)(ignore CAPS)/ bútúa(n)
> > [related to bolo/peel and evolve].
> >
> > Perhaps khotan/coton/cover, butuan/bottom/batten down?
> >
> > You claim aithiops = the burned face,
>
> I didn't claim it, OED's etymology mentioned it. The Greeks might
> have claimed it, but I'm not surprised you wouldn't care.

You have no clue what I care about, obviously. You used an English dictionary to support your claim about ancient Greek & Berber words, rather than the actual sources, as usual. Aithiops is irrelevant.

>
> I claim it primarily derived from high-up ~ on high (= zion@Hebrew/tian@Chinese) re. the reddish high cliffs of Eritrea & Ethiopian highlands, but because the people there have red-brown skin it also was used secondarily in reference to them.
> >
> > Which dialect of Berber, Tuareg?
>
> I don't know; why do you ask?

Thought not. Not that I care.

[Daud Deden]

Thanks for answering, Ross.

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 5:03:02 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> In <59057b3e-756d-4e0b...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
> 11/3/2017, Mscislaw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:28:45 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> >> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar
> >> speak?
> >
> > Myanmar and Burma are different-style forms of the same name.
> >
> > The official language of Burma is traditionally called Burmese in English. It
> > is based on the dialect of Irrawaddy valley, where there is a relatively
> > unified variety widely used as a lingua franca.
> >
> > You could actually look this up in an encyclopedia.
>
> It is also diglossic (like Arabic). "Myanmar" is from "High" variety,
> "Burma" from "Low" variety.

Thanks Yusuf.

High/social/ceremonial/formal
Low/personal/non-ceremonial/informal

[Daud Deden]

I don't have a story, I have research results & interpretations.

Guinea/hin(e/d)/(va)gina/gwen etc.

(E)thiop(ia) high-up/high-on/zion/tian etc.

> > I claim it primarily derived from high-up ~ on high (= zion@Hebrew/tian@Chinese) re. the reddish high cliffs of Eritrea & Ethiopian highlands, but because the people there have red-brown skin it also was used secondarily in reference to them.
> > >
> > > Which dialect of Berber, Tuareg?
> >
> > I don't know; why do you ask?

Berbers(Amazigh) have been heavily influenced by Europeans, Tuareg less so.

[DKleinecke]

I have a copy of Abdel-Massih's "Tamazight Verb Structure" and
the material presented there shows lots of Arabic influence and
no European influence.

[Ruud Harmsen]

UNREADIBLE. Google is not a proper news reader.


Sat, 4 Nov 2017 14:38:15 -0700 (PDT): DKleinecke
<dklei...@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 12:52:56 PM UTC-7, Daud Deden wrote:

>> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 7:10:25 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote=
>:
>> > On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 9:44:22 AM UTC+13, benl...@ihug.co.nz =

>wrote:
>> > > On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 1:00:25 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:

>> > > > On Nov 1, 2017 8:19 PM, "benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz>=
> wrote:
>> > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wro=
>te:
>> > > > > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.=
>co.nz wrote:
>> > > > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden =
>wrote:
>> > > > > > > Ross, a note:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I w=
>rote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papu=

>a.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > But "Papua" is not a language.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > No, it is a locale where honai are built.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Even if it's common in Papua (by which
>> > > > > > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".

>> > > >=20

>> > > > No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?

>> > > >=20
>> > > > Cf. F. Po/Poo/P=C3=B2 or his crewmate wrote of it.
>> > >=20

>> > > Unfortunately you have been unable to say where you read this. Even
>> > > if F.P. did write of a language called Lusu in which the word for
>> > > woman was "guinea", it does not follow that this word was the origin
>> > > of the geographical term "Guinea".

>> > >=20
>> > > >=20
>> > > > I prefer Papua.
>> > > >=20
>> > > > Papua/Papaua matches both Mbabaram@Queensland & Mamanwa@Philipines(=
>denisovan genes), as well as (Zi/Xya)mbabwe & (Li)mpopo, all link to *ambua=
> which is close to Mbo@Balinese: mother, and to ember/enburn/buni@Mbabaram:=

> fire.
>> > > > -
>> > > > Papua literally means "frizzy-haired".
>> > > > -

>> > > > That is an 'overformation' or 'backformation'.=20

>> > > > Rambut@Malay: hair
>> > > > Buluh@Malay: feathers, fuzzy

>> > > >=20
>> > > > Which language did you mean, literally?=20
>> > >=20
>> > > It's a Malay word, probably eastern dialect. OED gives it as=20
>> > > papuah, pepuah 'frizzled'. It was the (Moluccan) Malay term for=20

>> > > the physically distinct people to the east.

>> > >=20
>> > > 1601 R. Hakluyt tr. A. Galvano Discov. World 70 The people=20
>> > > of Maluco call them Papuas, because they be blacke and friseled=20
>> > > in their haire.
>> > > =20
>> > > > Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of My=
>anmar speak?
>> > > >=20

>> > > > What I'm trying to get you to do is identify languages.

>> > > >=20
>> > > > Paleo-etymology recognizes Human language with numerous dialects. I=

> asked you a question, you responded but did not answer. Why?

>> > >=20
>> > > Which question are you talking about? The one about Burma/Myanmar?=20
>> > > I didn't answer it because it wasn't a real question.=20
>> > > =20

>> > > > > it must be from
>> > > > > > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai
>> > > > >

>> > > > > "Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw =
>or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which =
>aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually buil=
>t as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to =
>create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three type=
>s, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called =

>Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > rumah@Malay: house

>> > > > > honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology=
> or source language.
>> > > >=20
>> > > > It would appear to be a word that Indonesian (Malay) speakers use t=
>o
>> > > > talk about Papuan traditional houses. So probably not used in Malay=
>sia.
>> > > > But probably in Papuan Malay. It's not in Kluge's vocabulary, but t=

>hat's
>> > > > pretty basic. As to the ultimate source, I don't know either.

>> > > >=20
>> > > > So you might rethink the necessity of labelling every word with a l=
>anguage, if a region is more useful.=20
>> > >=20
>> > > Your region-labelling may be useful to you, since you have trouble re=

>membering
>> > > where you picked things up. As the present case shows, it is not

>> > > useful to others. Does honai@Papua mean "in some language of Papua", =
>or
>> > > "in a lot of languages all over Papua" or "in a language which is wid=

>ely
>> > > used in Papua"? You may not care, but I do.

>> > >=20
>> > > Honai@Papua-undetermined: men's hut, though I prefer honai@Yali: men'=
>s hut.
>> > >=20
>> > > ??! Even though the Yali themselves do not actually use the word in t=
>heir
>> > > own language?
>> > >=20
>> > > > 'Honai' is not traditionally found outside Papua, so it should NEVE=

>R be called "Malay" or "Papuan Malay".

>> > >=20
>> > > Even stranger reasoning. Since you don't care about language differen=

>ces,
>> > > why would you be so dogmatic about NEVER calling it Papuan Malay?

>> > > =20
>> > > > The only important thing to me is that it is distinct from the norm=
>al mongolu/mbuangualua/bungalo pattern, and has thatch not broad leaves on =
>a conical-domicile top and seems closest to Maasai &=20
>> > > > Pygmy huts.
>> > > >=20
>> > > > > > Significance:
>> > > > > > > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic=
> groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is=
> partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994=
>).
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > You don't even know that the city-name Khotan comes from the Ey=

>nu language,
>> > > > > > let alone that it is part of this "unknown origin" component.
>> > > > >

>> > > > > Exactly. It remains to be determined, but it seems not to be Pers=

>ian or Turkic.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > A thought, probably not connected, is this:
>> > > > >

>> > > > > futon@Japanese: bedding ~ bet/beth@Hebrew: hut, beitz@Hebrew: nes=
>t/egg
>> > > > > khotan/goton/ng_d_ualua/gh_t_n/futon
>> > > >=20
>> > > > Futon appears to be of Chinese origin - cf. Mandarin p=C3=BAtu=C3=
>=A1n 'Buddhist prayer mat'
>> > > >=20
>> > > > That implies portability, rolled or folded, unrolled at inns, huts,=
> caravanserais & temples.
>> > > > p=C3=BAtu=C3=A1n/*p.hut.uan/(XYA)MbuAtLua(XYUA)(ignore CAPS)/ b=C3=
>=BAt=C3=BAa(n)

>> > > > [related to bolo/peel and evolve].

>> > > >=20
>> > > > Perhaps khotan/coton/cover, butuan/bottom/batten down?
>> > > >=20
>> > > > You claim aithiops =3D the burned face,=20
>> > >=20
>> > > I didn't claim it, OED's etymology mentioned it.=20
>> >=20

>> > Correction: Not OED, but Wikipedia ("Guinea (region)"), with a
>> > reference to

>> >=20
>> > Rogado Quintino (1965) "O problema da origem dos termos =C2=ABGuin=C3=
>=A9=C2=BB=20
>> > e =C2=ABGuin=C3=A9us=C2=BB", Boletim Cultural da Guin=C3=A9 portuguesa,=
> vol. 20, no.78,=20
>> > p.117-45.
>> >=20
>> > The Greeks might=20

>> > > have claimed it, but I'm not surprised you wouldn't care.

>> >=20
>> > OED (s.v. Ethiop)
>> >=20
>> > ancient Greek =CE=91=E1=BC=B0=CE=B8=CE=B9=CE=BF=CF=80- , =CE=91=E1=BC=
>=B0=CE=B8=CE=AF=CE=BF=CF=88 (noun and adjective) Ethiopian;=20
>> > of uncertain origin. The prevailing view since antiquity was that=20
>> > =CE=91=E1=BC=B0=CE=B8=CE=AF=CE=BF=CF=88 derived < =CE=B1=E1=BC=B4=CE=B8=
>=CE=B5=CE=B9=CE=BD to light up, kindle (see aethionema n.) + =E1=BD=84=CF=
>=88 face
>> > ...and meant primarily =E2=80=98burnt-face=E2=80=99 (compare ancient Gr=
>eek =CE=B1=E1=BC=B6=CE=B8=CE=BF=CF=88=20
>> > fiery-looking, in Hellenistic Greek also black;...the formation is=20
>> > however not clear, and some have supposed the word to be a name of=20
>> > pre-Greek origin, involving a different suffix; compare e.g. =CE=94=CF=
>=81=CF=8D=CE=BF=CF=80=CE=B5=CF=82 , =CE=94=CF=8C=CE=BB=CE=BF=CF=80=CE=B5=CF=
>=82 , both names of peoples.
>> >=20

>> > So hey, your story might be in with a chance!

>>=20

>> I don't have a story, I have research results & interpretations.

>>=20
>> Guinea/hin(e/d)/(va)gina/gwen etc.
>>=20
>> (E)thiop(ia) high-up/high-on/zion/tian etc.
>> =20
>> > > I claim it primarily derived from high-up ~ on high (=3D zion@Hebrew/=
>tian@Chinese) re. the reddish high cliffs of Eritrea & Ethiopian highlands,=
> but because the people there have red-brown skin it also was used secondar=
>ily in reference to them.=20
>> > > >=20

>> > > > Which dialect of Berber, Tuareg?

>> > >=20

>> > > I don't know; why do you ask?

>>=20
>> Berbers(Amazigh) have been heavily influenced by Europeans, Tuareg less s=

[António Marques]

Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> UNREADIBLE. Google is not a proper news reader.

As far as I've seen, it seems to be that Dodd's person replies that mess up
quotations.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <f079750f-a4bf-4113...@googlegroups.com>, on

There is an old layer of African Romance or African Latin words in
Berber languages. The non-Syrian solar month names of Arabic have been
taken from this via Berber.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <35a614a9-2a94-41e4...@googlegroups.com>, on

Saturday, 11/4/2017, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 5:03:02 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
>> In <59057b3e-756d-4e0b...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
>> 11/3/2017, Mscislaw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:28:45 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar
>>>> speak?
>>>
>>> Myanmar and Burma are different-style forms of the same name.
>>>
>>> The official language of Burma is traditionally called Burmese in English.
>>> It is based on the dialect of Irrawaddy valley, where there is a
>>> relatively unified variety widely used as a lingua franca.
>>>
>>> You could actually look this up in an encyclopedia.
>>
>> It is also diglossic (like Arabic). "Myanmar" is from "High" variety,
>> "Burma" from "Low" variety.
>
> Thanks Yusuf.
>
> High/social/ceremonial/formal
> Low/personal/non-ceremonial/informal
>

In Arabic at least most social interactions, except formal ones, take
place in the low register.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Sunday, November 5, 2017 at 7:54:14 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 3:39:23 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 2:58:33 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 1:29:00 PM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > > > In <59057b3e-756d-4e0b...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
> > > > 11/3/2017, Mscislaw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1:28:45 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > >> Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar
> > > > >> speak?
> > > > >
> > > > > Myanmar and Burma are different-style forms of the same name.
> > > >
> > > > And both spellings are based on non-rhotic English, i.e. they assume
> > > > that the "r"s are not to be pronounced.
> > >
> > > Yes, thanks Yusuf. How are the non-rhotic "R"s detected aurally if not pronounced? Are they representative of glottal stops or tonal shifts or the (Viet style) inhaled d or L?
> >
> > THEY DO NOT EXIST.
>
> Havard/Havad.

He means that there are no "R"s, non-rhotic or otherwise, in the "Havad"
pronunciation.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Sunday, November 5, 2017 at 8:15:17 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 4:44:22 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 1:00:25 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Nov 1, 2017 8:19 PM, "benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > Ross, a note:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> > > > >
> > > > > But "Papua" is not a language.
> > > >
> > > > No, it is a locale where honai are built.
> > > >
> > > > Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > > > > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
> > > >
> > > > Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".
> > >
> > > No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?
> > >
> > > Cf. F. Po/Poo/Pò or his crewmate wrote of it.
> >
> > Unfortunately you have been unable to say where you read this. Even
> > if F.P. did write of a language called Lusu in which the word for
> > woman was "guinea", it does not follow that this word was the origin
> > of the geographical term "Guinea".
>
> What I wrote is accurate.

Not where you said "New Guinea literally means "new woman".

And as far as the Lusu/"guinea" stuff, it would be good if others
had the opportunity of checking your accuracy.

> > >
> > > I prefer Papua.
> > >
> > > Papua/Papaua matches both Mbabaram@Queensland & Mamanwa@Philipines(denisovan genes), as well as (Zi/Xya)mbabwe & (Li)mpopo, all link to *ambua which is close to Mbo@Balinese: mother, and to ember/enburn/buni@Mbabaram: fire.
> > > -
> > > Papua literally means "frizzy-haired".
>
> Wrong. Check.

Checked. Right.

> > > -
> > > That is an 'overformation' or 'backformation'.
> > > Rambut@Malay: hair
> > > Buluh@Malay: feathers, fuzzy
> > >
> > > Which language did you mean, literally?
> >
> > It's a Malay word
>
> Wrong. Check.

Checked. Right.

> , probably eastern dialect. OED gives it as
> > papuah, pepuah 'frizzled'. It was the (Moluccan) Malay term for
> > the physically distinct people to the east.
>
> Wrong. Check.

Checked. Right.

> >
> > 1601 R. Hakluyt tr. A. Galvano Discov. World 70 The people
> > of Maluco call them Papuas, because they be blacke and friseled
> > in their haire.
>
> Its a Fake Malay word. (There are others ascribed by colonialists) Papua is the place where they/their kin were from. The word "because" should be omitted.

And you know this how?

> > > Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?
> > >
> > > What I'm trying to get you to do is identify languages.
> > >
> > > Paleo-etymology recognizes Human language with numerous dialects. I asked you a question, you responded but did not answer. Why?
> >
> > Which question are you talking about? The one about Burma/Myanmar?
> > I didn't answer it because it wasn't a real question.
> >
> > > > it must be from
> > > > > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai
> > > >
> > > > "Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually built as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three types, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)
> > > >
> > > > rumah@Malay: house
> > > > honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology or source language.
> > >
> > > It would appear to be a word that Indonesian (Malay) speakers use to
> > > talk about Papuan traditional houses.
>
> Then it is Indonesian. It is not Malay.

As used by people who know something about the subject, "Malay" is
a general term for a language with many variants. Two of its standardized
forms are the national languages of Malaysia and Indonesia.

"As the Bahasa Kebangsaan or Bahasa Nasional (National Language)
of several states, Standard Malay has various official names.
In Singapore and Brunei it is called Bahasa Melayu (Malay language);
in Malaysia, Bahasa Malaysia (Malaysian language); and in Indonesia,
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian language) and is designated the Bahasa
Persatuan/ Pemersatu ("unifying language/ lingua franca")."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_language

> So probably not used in Malaysia.
> > > But probably in Papuan Malay.
>
> Because it is Papuan.

...by which you mean what?

> It's not in Kluge's vocabulary, but that's
> > > pretty basic. As to the ultimate source, I don't know either.
> > >
> > > So you might rethink the necessity of labelling every word with a language, if a region is more useful.
> >
> > Your region-labelling may be useful to you, since you have trouble remembering
> > where you picked things up.
>
> Trouble? Nope.

A careful reading of your own posts will reveal a number of examples.
Perhaps, though, they don't trouble you.

> As the present case shows, it is not
> > useful to others. Does honai@Papua mean "in some language of Papua", or
> > "in a lot of languages all over Papua" or "in a language which is widely
> > used in Papua"? You may not care, but I do.
>
> It is a Papuan word. Why is that so hard for you?

Still waiting for you to explain what you mean by that.

> > Honai@Papua-undetermined: men's hut, though I prefer honai@Yali: men's hut.
> >
> > ??! Even though the Yali themselves do not actually use the word in their
> > own language?
>
> They do.

And you know this how? Note that the page you referred us to was written
in English, and by a trekker-operator person who was evidently not a Yali
himself.

> >
> > > 'Honai' is not traditionally found outside Papua, so it should NEVER be called "Malay" or "Papuan Malay".
> >
> > Even stranger reasoning. Since you don't care about language differences,
> > why would you be so dogmatic about NEVER calling it Papuan Malay?
>
> Stop being silly. Honai is a Papuan word, it is not a Malay word. Malays in Papua use the word because they are in Papua.

They use it in speaking Malay. It may very well have come from some
language indigenous to Papua, but we don't know that, or what language
it might be. But it's a word of Papuan Malay now.

> >
> > > The only important thing to me is that it is distinct from the normal mongolu/mbuangualua/bungalo pattern, and has thatch not broad leaves on a conical-domicile top and seems closest to Maasai &
> > > (EDIT) KhoiSan huts.
> > >
> > > > > Significance:
> > > > > > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).
> > > > >
> > > > > You don't even know that the city-name Khotan comes from the Eynu language,
> > > > > let alone that it is part of this "unknown origin" component.
> > > >
> > > > Exactly. It remains to be determined, but it seems not to be Persian or Turkic.
> > > >
> > > > A thought, probably not connected, is this:
> > > >
> > > > futon@Japanese: bedding ~ bet/beth@Hebrew: hut, beitz@Hebrew: nest/egg
> > > > khotan/goton/ng_d_ualua/gh_t_n/futon
> > >
> > > Futon appears to be of Chinese origin - cf. Mandarin pútuán 'Buddhist prayer mat'
> > >
> > > That implies portability, rolled or folded, unrolled at inns, huts, caravanserais & temples.
> > > pútuán/*p.hut.uan/(XYA)MbuAtLua(XYUA)(ignore CAPS)/ bútúa(n)
> > > [related to bolo/peel and evolve].
> > >
> > > Perhaps khotan/coton/cover, butuan/bottom/batten down?
> > >
> > > You claim aithiops = the burned face,
> >
> > I didn't claim it, OED's etymology mentioned it. The Greeks might
> > have claimed it, but I'm not surprised you wouldn't care.
>
> You have no clue what I care about, obviously. You used an English dictionary to support your claim about ancient Greek & Berber words, rather than the actual sources, as usual.

What actual sources? Was I supposed to go out and interview Ancient Greeks
and Berbers?

>Aithiops is irrelevant.

Quite relevant as a parallel to the proposed Berber etymology.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

An etymology is a story about the history of a word. Your story
is that "Aithiops" comes from a word meaning "high up" or some such.

I have research results & interpretations.

> Guinea/hin(e/d)/(va)gina/gwen etc.
>
> (E)thiop(ia) high-up/high-on/zion/tian etc.

Are those supposed to be "research results" or "interpretations" or
something else? If you really have research results, how come you can't
state them in plain language?

> > > I claim it primarily derived from high-up ~ on high (= zion@Hebrew/tian@Chinese) re. the reddish high cliffs of Eritrea & Ethiopian highlands, but because the people there have red-brown skin it also was used secondarily in reference to them.
> > > >
> > > > Which dialect of Berber, Tuareg?
> > >
> > > I don't know; why do you ask?
>
> Berbers(Amazigh) have been heavily influenced by Europeans, Tuareg less so.

And how would that affect the etymological question?

[Daud Deden]

DK, I hope someday you will learn the importance of context. I was comparing Amazigt/Berber in general to Tuareg. Berber has much more European influence than Tuareg. The presence of Arabic influence indicates European influence, you should certainly be aware of the heavy influence of Greek on Arab scholarship etc.

[Daud Deden]

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:50:02 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> UNREADIBLE. Google is not a proper news reader.

Thanks Ruud, I agree!

[Daud Deden]

Yes, that damn fool did it again.

[Daud Deden]

> There is an old layer of African Romance or African Latin words in
> Berber languages. The non-Syrian solar month names of Arabic have been
> taken from this via Berber.

Thanks Yusuf, that is interesting. I only know a bit of Arabic via Malay.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <cac93926-1785-4887...@googlegroups.com>, on Sunday,

Wait a minute! Tuareg is a Berber language! Which Berber language
language is your "Berber"?

> than Tuareg. The presence of Arabic influence indicates European influence,
> you should certainly be aware of the heavy influence of Greek on Arab
> scholarship etc.

Most Greek loans in Arabic are via Syriac or other forms of Aramaic.
Tehcnical terms hardly count as "heavy influence".

[Daud Deden]

On Sunday, November 5, 2017 at 1:48:56 AM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Sunday, November 5, 2017 at 8:15:17 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Friday, November 3, 2017 at 4:44:22 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 1:00:25 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > On Nov 1, 2017 8:19 PM, "benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:28:45 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 3:26:58 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > > > > Ross, a note:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But "Papua" is not a language.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, it is a locale where honai are built.
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if it's common in Papua (by which
> > > > > > I assume you mean the Indonesian part of New Guinea)
> > > > >
> > > > > Ross, New Guinea literally means "new woman".
> > > >
> > > > No, it doesn't. Is this based on your imaginary "Lusu" language?
> > > >
> > > > Cf. F. Po/Poo/Pò or his crewmate wrote of it.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately you have been unable to say where you read this. Even
> > > if F.P. did write of a language called Lusu in which the word for
> > > woman was "guinea", it does not follow that this word was the origin
> > > of the geographical term "Guinea".
> >
> > What I wrote is accurate.
>
> Not where you said "New Guinea literally means "new woman".

You have provided NO EVIDENCE to counter that claim, which is well researched. Saying that it is 'imaginary' shows your reluctance to allow reality to interfere with your prejudiced thought patterns. Exactly the same crap where you claim Papua means frizzled in Malay. Garbage from New Zealand vs. Science from Florida. Trumped by reality!

> And as far as the Lusu/"guinea" stuff, it would be good if others
> had the opportunity of checking your accuracy.

No-one is stopping you from independently researching it, just as I did. But if you continue to look at the surface, you will find the colonial version, not the reality. But that seems to suit you better than reality anyway.

>
> > > >
> > > > I prefer Papua.
> > > >
> > > > Papua/Papaua matches both Mbabaram@Queensland & Mamanwa@Philipines(denisovan genes), as well as (Zi/Xya)mbabwe & (Li)mpopo, all link to *ambua which is close to Mbo@Balinese: mother, and to ember/enburn/buni@Mbabaram: fire.
> > > > -
> > > > Papua literally means "frizzy-haired".
> >
> > Wrong. Check.
>
> Checked. Right.

Go beyond the veneer/crap floating on the surface. Go to the roots, where the truth is. (You can't, obviously).

> > > > -
> > > > That is an 'overformation' or 'backformation'.
> > > > Rambut@Malay: hair
> > > > Buluh@Malay: feathers, fuzzy
> > > >
> > > > Which language did you mean, literally?
> > >
> > > It's a Malay word
> >
> > Wrong. Check.
>
> Checked. Right.

Still lying to yourself.

>
> > , probably eastern dialect. OED gives it as
> > > papuah, pepuah 'frizzled'. It was the (Moluccan) Malay term for
> > > the physically distinct people to the east.
> >
> > Wrong. Check.
>
> Checked. Right.

Still lying to yourself.

>
> > >
> > > 1601 R. Hakluyt tr. A. Galvano Discov. World 70 The people
> > > of Maluco call them Papuas, because they be blacke and friseled
> > > in their haire.
> >
> > Its a Fake Malay word. (There are others ascribed by colonialists) Papua is the place where they/their kin were from. The word "because" should be omitted.
>
> And you know this how?

Malays told me, its common knowledge. How many Malay dictionaries cite the word 'papua' as Malay? I found none, only English claims.

>
> > > > Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?
> > > >
> > > > What I'm trying to get you to do is identify languages.
> > > >
> > > > Paleo-etymology recognizes Human language with numerous dialects. I asked you a question, you responded but did not answer. Why?
> > >
> > > Which question are you talking about? The one about Burma/Myanmar?
> > > I didn't answer it because it wasn't a real question.
> > >
> > > > > it must be from
> > > > > > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai
> > > > >
> > > > > "Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually built as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three types, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)
> > > > >
> > > > > rumah@Malay: house
> > > > > honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology or source language.
> > > >
> > > > It would appear to be a word that Indonesian (Malay) speakers use to
> > > > talk about Papuan traditional houses.
> >
> > Then it is Indonesian. It is not Malay.
>
> As used by people who know something about the subject,

30 years field tested - Dan Everet & myself.
0 years field tested - Ross & fanboys.

Quit proving your ignorance please.

> > So probably not used in Malaysia.
> > > > But probably in Papuan Malay.
> >
> > Because it is Papuan.
>
> ...by which you mean what?

Obviously, I was referring to something that is Papuan, whatever it is.

>
> > It's not in Kluge's vocabulary, but that's
> > > > pretty basic. As to the ultimate source, I don't know either.
> > > >
> > > > So you might rethink the necessity of labelling every word with a language, if a region is more useful.
> > >
> > > Your region-labelling may be useful to you, since you have trouble remembering
> > > where you picked things up.
> >
> > Trouble? Nope.
>
> A careful reading of your own posts will reveal a number of examples.
> Perhaps, though, they don't trouble you.

Again, you assume mistaken conjecture is reality. Why?

[Daud Deden]

> > > Honai@Papua-undetermined: men's hut, though I prefer honai@Yali: men's hut.
> > >
> > > ??! Even though the Yali themselves do not actually use the word in their
> > > own language?
> >
> > They do.
>
> And you know this how? Note that the page you referred us to was written
> in English, and by a trekker-operator person who was evidently not a Yali
> himself.

How can you possibly misunderstand? Honai is used in Papua to refer to a (men's) hut. In Papua people use the word Honai to refer to a (men's) hut. That includes (sensible) Trekkers, Yali, Malays and the rest of the Papuans.

CAN SOMEBODY HELP ROSS WITH THIS??

{ cf. "Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'." }

> > > > 'Honai' is not traditionally found outside Papua, so it should NEVER be called "Malay" or "Papuan Malay".
> > >
> > > Even stranger reasoning. Since you don't care about language differences,
> > > why would you be so dogmatic about NEVER calling it Papuan Malay?
> >
> > Stop being silly. Honai is a Papuan word, it is not a Malay word. Malays in Papua use the word because they are in Papua.
>
> They use it in speaking Malay.

Ross, you are hopelessly lost. Why don't you study "English in New Zealand" and leave the hard stuff to others?

It may very well have come from some
> language indigenous to Papua, but we don't know that, or what language
> it might be. But it's a word of Papuan Malay now.

Malays that live in Papua use the Papuan word for hut: Honai.

"Papuan Malay" does not exist, "Bahasa Indonesia" does exist.

[Daud Deden]

https://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/2017/11/02/facial-tattoos-of-the-jomon-and-what-they-may-have-been-for/

Facial tattoos(and scarifications) of women: Ainu, Inuit, Jomon, Maori

IMO Ainu women did not originally have face tattoos but adopted the custom from coastal cultures like Jomon, whose women dove for seafoods (like today's Japanese Ama divers & Korean Cheju island "dragon lady" divers, where shark attack was a daily threat.)

Note: The divers traditionally used a wood spatula (like Tasmanian women divers) to scrape abalone from rocks, a knife, a digging stick/prybar, and had a floating basket to deposit their catch which they could lay on to warm up in between dives. I think the basket was originally a wicker coracle, but changed to cedar-plank "washtub", similar to coastal Chinese women's washtubs which they paddled through the harbor to get close to British ships to trade.


On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:39:03 PM UTC-4, DKleinecke wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 12:47:27 PM UTC-7, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 12:53:49 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

> > > On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 10:26:58 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > Ross, a note:
> > > >
> > > > Re. Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'. Honai is common in Papua, that is why I wrote honai@Papua.
> > > >

> > > > Significance:
> > > > The Eynu may be compared with various Abdal..formerly nomadic groups which combine a local Turkic morphosyntax with a vocabulary that is partly of Persian **and partly of unknown origin**(Tietze & Ladsttter 1994).

> > > -
> > > Khotan (Hotan) NW China early trade
> > > Encyclopedic Dictionary of Archaeology
> > > https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0306461587
> > > Barbara Ann Kipfer - 2000 - ‎Social Science
> > > -
> > > These people were direct ancestors of modern/historical Ainu and they set ... in the language of Gold – hoton, in Manchurian language – hotan
> > > Tresi Nonno: Early history of Japan
> > > tresi-nonno.blogspot.com/2012/08/early-history-of-japan.html
> > >
> > > this might be of interest:
> > >
> > > "Ainu word kotan – "settlement", "inhabited area" exists in Old Mongolian as gotan, in the language of Gold – hoton, in Manchurian language – hotan, in Nivkh language – hoton." 
> > >
> > > So the (g/k/h/kh) + ot(a/o)n is reasonable. But as you say, kotan is the normal Ainu word for settlement. However, I recall reading an article by an Ainu person complaining that Japanese has influenced pronunciation of Ainu, producing syllable-based words, and that "Old" Ainu had different pronunciations. "Khotan" may have been Old Ainu, but I don't recall reading that description, so I don't know.
> > >
> > > Purely guessing, khotan from *ghuatlua(n) = hut + plural, derived from (mbua)ngdualua, so related to ger@Mongolian: yurt & gara@Tigrinha: hill & hogan@Navajo: underground hut & kurgan@Lithuanian (resting place?)
> > >
> > > Also: "Pimiko queen of Yamatai is a name of Ainu origin, originally it was Pi mik kur - Person who solves problems and barks)"
> > -
> >
> > And this: did Japanese influence the Ainu pronunciation?
> >
> > Koropokkuru are a race of small people in Ainu folklore. The name is traditionally analyzed as a tripartite compound of kor or koro ("butterbur plant"), pok ("under, below"), and kur or kuru ("person") and interpreted to mean "people below the leaves of the butterbur plant" in the Ainu language.
> >
> > The Ainu believe that the Koropokkuru were the people who lived in the Ainu's land before the Ainu themselves lived there. They were short of stature, agile and skilled at fishing. They lived in pits with roofs made from butterbur leaves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petasites_japonicus
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koro-pok-guru
> >
> > [Note: That matches the typical Pygmy hut, except they are made above ground.]
>
> I would read the evidence to say that the historic Koropokkuru
> were an Ainu group with a different culture. The folklore K
> reflects a different idea that merged with the historic memory.
>
> Compare the little people of the British Islands.

[DKleinecke]

I think I hear you saying Arabic influence is a form of
European influence. If so, you are off base and apparently
unfamiliar with Arabic literature.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

LOL! Well, I thought it was appropriate since you have provided NO EVIDENCE
in support of it.

Saying that it is 'imaginary' shows your reluctance to allow reality to interfere with your prejudiced thought patterns. Exactly the same crap where you claim Papua means frizzled in Malay. Garbage from New Zealand vs. Science from Florida. Trumped by reality!

LOL!! "Science", is it now?

> > And as far as the Lusu/"guinea" stuff, it would be good if others
> > had the opportunity of checking your accuracy.
>
> No-one is stopping you from independently researching it, just as I did.

Why do so many cranks talk this way? As if it was up to me to do the
research to substantiate your claims! I don't mind looking up stuff
online if it's there, or even occasionally walking to a bookshelf if
I have a source of information here, to check what you say. But
"Lusu"/"guinea" turned up nothing. Only you can tell us where it
came from.

But if you continue to look at the surface, you will find the colonial version, not the reality. But that seems to suit you better than reality anyway.

Oh God, anti-colonial rhetoric! Sure sign of desperation.

> > > > >
> > > > > I prefer Papua.
> > > > >
> > > > > Papua/Papaua matches both Mbabaram@Queensland & Mamanwa@Philipines(denisovan genes), as well as (Zi/Xya)mbabwe & (Li)mpopo, all link to *ambua which is close to Mbo@Balinese: mother, and to ember/enburn/buni@Mbabaram: fire.
> > > > > -
> > > > > Papua literally means "frizzy-haired".
> > >
> > > Wrong. Check.
> >
> > Checked. Right.
>
> Go beyond the veneer/crap floating on the surface. Go to the roots, where the truth is. (You can't, obviously).

Apparently only you can.

> > > > > -
> > > > > That is an 'overformation' or 'backformation'.
> > > > > Rambut@Malay: hair
> > > > > Buluh@Malay: feathers, fuzzy
> > > > >
> > > > > Which language did you mean, literally?
> > > >
> > > > It's a Malay word
> > >
> > > Wrong. Check.
> >
> > Checked. Right.
>
> Still lying to yourself.
>
> >
> > > , probably eastern dialect. OED gives it as
> > > > papuah, pepuah 'frizzled'. It was the (Moluccan) Malay term for
> > > > the physically distinct people to the east.
> > >
> > > Wrong. Check.
> >
> > Checked. Right.
>
> Still lying to yourself.

No, I'm just playing my part in the little game of contradiction you started.
That's enough, isn't it?

> > > >
> > > > 1601 R. Hakluyt tr. A. Galvano Discov. World 70 The people
> > > > of Maluco call them Papuas, because they be blacke and friseled
> > > > in their haire.
> > >
> > > Its a Fake Malay word. (There are others ascribed by colonialists) Papua is the place where they/their kin were from. The word "because" should be omitted.
> >
> > And you know this how?
>
> Malays told me, its common knowledge.

Yeah, right. You mean Malays (in Malaysia) told you "I don't know that
word", so it's common (non-)knowledge?

How many Malay dictionaries cite the word 'papua' as Malay? I found none, only English claims.

It's not in those dictionaries because it's not standard Malay.

> > > > > Names change, heard of Burma? Burmese? Burman? What do people of Myanmar speak?
> > > > >
> > > > > What I'm trying to get you to do is identify languages.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paleo-etymology recognizes Human language with numerous dialects. I asked you a question, you responded but did not answer. Why?
> > > >
> > > > Which question are you talking about? The one about Burma/Myanmar?
> > > > I didn't answer it because it wasn't a real question.
> > > >
> > > > > > it must be from
> > > > > > > some language. Is it Papuan Malay? Ah yes, here it is:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honai
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Honai's house is made of wood with a conical roof made of straw or weeds. Honai deliberately built a narrow or small and no windshed which aims to withstand the cold of the mountains of Papua. Honai is usually built as high as 2.5 meters and in the middle of the house prepared a place to create a bonfire to warm themselves. Honai House is divided into three types, namely for men (called Honai), women (called Ebei), and pig pen (called Wamai)". (Wiki Indonesian:honai, google translate)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > rumah@Malay: house
> > > > > > honai is not a Malay word in Malaysia. I don't know the etymology or source language.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would appear to be a word that Indonesian (Malay) speakers use to
> > > > > talk about Papuan traditional houses.
> > >
> > > Then it is Indonesian. It is not Malay.
> >
> > As used by people who know something about the subject,
>
> 30 years field tested - Dan Everet & myself.
> 0 years field tested - Ross & fanboys.

I'm not talking about either myself or whoever you mean by "fanboys".

> Quit proving your ignorance please.
>
> > > So probably not used in Malaysia.
> > > > > But probably in Papuan Malay.
> > >
> > > Because it is Papuan.
> >
> > ...by which you mean what?
>
> Obviously, I was referring to something that is Papuan, whatever it is.

Thanks, that's a big help. So by "honai is Papuan" you mean "honai is Papuan"?

> > > It's not in Kluge's vocabulary, but that's
> > > > > pretty basic. As to the ultimate source, I don't know either.
> > > > >
> > > > > So you might rethink the necessity of labelling every word with a language, if a region is more useful.
> > > >
> > > > Your region-labelling may be useful to you, since you have trouble remembering
> > > > where you picked things up.
> > >
> > > Trouble? Nope.
> >
> > A careful reading of your own posts will reveal a number of examples.
> > Perhaps, though, they don't trouble you.
>
> Again, you assume mistaken conjecture is reality. Why?

Your confusion is reality; whether it troubles you or not is (as I admitted)
conjecture.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 7:29:19 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > > Honai@Papua-undetermined: men's hut, though I prefer honai@Yali: men's hut.
> > > >
> > > > ??! Even though the Yali themselves do not actually use the word in their
> > > > own language?
> > >
> > > They do.
> >
> > And you know this how? Note that the page you referred us to was written
> > in English, and by a trekker-operator person who was evidently not a Yali
> > himself.
>
> How can you possibly misunderstand? Honai is used in Papua to refer to a (men's) hut. In Papua people use the word Honai to refer to a (men's) hut. That includes (sensible) Trekkers, Yali, Malays and the rest of the Papuans.

How can you possibly not get what is inadequate about that answer?
People use words when they speak languages.
Hundreds of different languages are spoken in Papua.
In which languages is the word "honai" used? That's my question.
If you tell me "all of them", I call bullshit. You could not possibly
know that.
In fact when you tell me that the Yali use the word when speaking Yali,
I call bullshit, too.
We have seen evidence here of the word being used in the languages
of outsiders (Indonesian, English) when talking about Papua. It may
well be used in one or more of the indigenous languages (assuming
that's where it came from), but neither you nor I have any information
on that.

>
> CAN SOMEBODY HELP ROSS WITH THIS??
>
> { cf. "Honai as tourist cone lodge, was not Yali, that's why I wrote 'the locals'." }
>
> > > > > 'Honai' is not traditionally found outside Papua, so it should NEVER be called "Malay" or "Papuan Malay".
> > > >
> > > > Even stranger reasoning. Since you don't care about language differences,
> > > > why would you be so dogmatic about NEVER calling it Papuan Malay?
> > >
> > > Stop being silly. Honai is a Papuan word, it is not a Malay word. Malays in Papua use the word because they are in Papua.
> >
> > They use it in speaking Malay.
>
> Ross, you are hopelessly lost. Why don't you study "English in New Zealand" and leave the hard stuff to others?
>
> It may very well have come from some
> > language indigenous to Papua, but we don't know that, or what language
> > it might be. But it's a word of Papuan Malay now.
>
> Malays that live in Papua use the Papuan word for hut: Honai.
>
> "Papuan Malay" does not exist, "Bahasa Indonesia" does exist.

And you know this how?

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Just a little more on "papua/Papua":

It certainly does not seem to be in any modern Malaysian/Indonesian
dictionaries. I suggested above that it was a regional word, but it may
simply be obsolete. In fact it can be found in two of the major 19th-century
dictionaries:

William Marsden, A Dictionary of the Malayan Language (London, 1812)

papūah frizzled; woolly-headed; having many natural curls; crisp,
curled (as certain plants)

Orang papūah the natives of New Guinea
Tānah papūah the country of people with frizzled hair; New Guinea

John Crawfurd, A Grammar and Dictionary of the Malay Language (London, 1852)

Papuwah Frizzled; frizzle or woolly-headed; a negrito of the Indian
islands; an African Negro.

Puwah-puwah. Frizzled or woolly; a negro. It is applied to anything with a frizzled or woolly coat. Thus, a particular variety of the common fowl with ruffled plumage is called ayam puwa-puwa.


Above I posted an OED citation from Hakluyt's translation of Antonio
Galvâo (1490-1557). Here is another from his near contemporary
Gaspar Correia (?1492-c.1563), who also wrote a history of the
Portuguese doings in the East Indies:

"E porque o vento foy calma de noite escorreo a nao per antre as ilhas,
que ha grandes correntes, e foy dar no golfam do estreito do Magalhães,
onde lhe deu muy grande temporal, que casy forão de todo perdidos a Deos misericordia, e correrão, com que forão, tomar na terra das papuás, onde
andou com ponentes que ventauão, que nom pòde hir a Maluco senão maio de 1527."

Gaspar Correa, Lendas da India
Lisbon, Academia Real das Sciencias, 1862
vol.3, pp.173-4

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=F2ZKAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

A translation is given in Hobson-Jobson s.v. "Papua":

"And as the wind fell at night the vessel was carried in among the islands,
where there are strong currents, and got into the Sea of the Strait of
Magellan, where he encountered a great storm, so that but for God's mercy
they had all been lost, and so they were driven on till they made the land
of the Papuas, and then the east winds began to blow so that they could not
sail to the Moluccas till May 1527."

These are probably the earliest appearances of the word in any European text.
One important point is that in these early uses "Papua" always refers to
a _people_, rather than a place. In fact Yule & Burnell (Hobson-Jobson),
writing in 1886, say that the word is "...now applied generically to the
chief race of the island of New Guinea and resembling tribes, and sometimes
(improperly) to the great island itself..."

[Daud Deden]

See p. 326 http://papuaweb.org/dlib/bk1/kitlv/bki/gelpke-1993.pdf

The word babwa fits perfectly the pattern Mamanwa@Philp./Mbabara(m)@Austl./Batwa etc., the word(?) puahpuah remains uncertain, per this source, though I'm not claiming either one as correct yet.

[Daud Deden]

Arabic & Berber were influenced by Roman, Greek, Visigoth-Vandal and others to varying extents, Tuareg less so.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 6:11:18 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:

> Arabic & Berber were influenced by Roman, Greek, Visigoth-Vandal and others to varying extents, Tuareg less so.

Tuareg IS Berber (as Yusuf has already told you).

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Thanks. This is quite interesting, though I'm not persuaded by his
arguments against the conventional etymology or in favor of the Biak.

> The word babwa fits perfectly the pattern Mamanwa@Philp./Mbabara(m)@Austl./Batwa etc., the word(?) puahpuah remains uncertain, per this source, though I'm not claiming either one as correct yet.

The Biak word is probably -vav-wa 'down-over there', as in van den Heuvel's
thesis (available online). The /v/ is a bilabial fricative [B] which was heard
and spelled as <b> by earlier writers. Most likely from PMP *babaq "lower surface, bottom; short, low; below, beneath, under" (Blust). Rather than
"below the sunset", the sense of "below" could well be "downwind" -- a fairly
common extension of sense in languages of that area.

[Daud Deden]

Thanks Peter.