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Dylan Sung

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Mar 23, 2006, 4:50:56 PM3/23/06
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Tasty dishes and the hilarious consequences of machine translation.

"Fuck to fry the cow river", anyone?
How's about a "The pig picks the elder brother a cloth "

http://www.dylanwhs.ukgateway.net/menu/index.html

Dyl.


Tak To

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Apr 13, 2006, 10:20:29 AM4/13/06
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The following post is not available on some newsserver,
probably due to the erroneous date.

----- -----

Quite good!

Some comments:

Menu 1

> ["奉送咖啡或奶茶"] The word 送 does indeed mean 'send' but it also has
> the connotation of being 'included' with the meal, Hence 奉送 (all
> with) 咖啡 (coffee) 或 (or) 奶茶 (milk tea) as the extra 's' is
> unnecessary, but students of Chinese know that nouns aren't modified
> to indicate number. Or more simply coffee or tea included

While 送 can mean "to send", it is closer to “to give a gift” in this
context. 奉送 is to offer very respectfully. I.e., coffee or tea are
free.

-----

> 湯类 literally means 'soup types' or 'types of soup', for which
> bortsch and chowder are examples.

类 means category or type. 湯类 here means "the soup category"
(the category which comprises soups) -- i.e. "soups", not "soup
types".

Borscht.

-----

> 罗宋 may be another spelling of 吕宋 a placename 'Luzon' in the
> Phillipines. One wonders if this is where Chinese first encountered
> Russian

罗宋 is simply a transcription of "Russia". The similarity to
吕宋 is coincidental.

------

> ["鸡茸忌廉汤"] I would have translated this literally as 鸡 chicken 茸
> puree 忌廉 cream 汤 soup。 忌廉 is another rendering from the English
> 'cream' or french 'crème'. However, chicken soup is usually made
> with a chicken stock, rather pureed chicken,

Cream of chicken.

-----

> 海鲜 literally means 'fresh from the ocean' or 'ocean fresh' [...]

海鲜 Can be nicely translated as "fruits de mar" in this context.

-----

> 是日例汤. The sense of 是 is in the classical sense 'this, that'.
> Why they chose that translation, is anyone's guess.

是日 means “today” and 例 "regular, routine" in the current context.
"是日例湯" is the idiomatic term for "soup of the day".

-----

> ["厨师沙律"]

Note that "沙律" is a Hong Kong/Cantonese style transcription.
In Beijing, for example, it would be "沙拉".

> 厨师 kitchen master, i.e. chef.

厨师 is closer to "cook" than "chef".

----- -----

Menu 2

> 扒 chops and cutlets 类 types. However, 扒 is also homophonous with
> 耙 a type of rake, so one wonders if the translator had in mind a
> pick axe of some sort...

Using 扒 for steaks/cutlets in Cantonese goes way back (early 20th
century?) but the exact etymology is unknown. A rack of lamb does
look like a rake somewhat.

-----

> 意大利香草羊扒 Lamb Chops with Italian Sweetgrass
> [...] 香 fragrant 草 grass: xiang cao refers to sweetgrass,
> or perhaps vanilla.

More likely rosemary or mint. I would think "意大利" (Italian)
here applies to the entire dish rather just "香草", since most of
the other dishes in this category are named after places.

-----

> 牛腩 is the brisket of beef

A cut from the flank or belly, with the a sheet of ligament
(I think) which is very tough and has to be stewed for a long
time. Since the ligament is white in color, 牛腩 is also
called 牛白腩 ("beef white belly").

-----

> 星加波 Singapore

星加_坡_

----- -----

Menu 3

> ["三文治"]

Another Hong Kong style transcription. In Beijing it would be
三明治.

-----

> ["薄牛扒"]

Probably London broil.

-----

> ["扒芝士火腿三文治"] 扒 cutlet; 芝 sesame 士 soldier, private in the army :
> Chinese rendering of 'Cheese'. 火 fire 腿 thigh : basically a roasted
> joint like roast ham.

The word 扒 seems to be entirely superfluous here. Probably a typo.

While 芝士 means "cheese" and 芝麻 is "sesame"; 芝 by itself is a
magical grass.

The 火 ("fire") in 火腿 ("ham") is from the red color of the cured
meat. It is nothing to do with roasting.

-----

> 烟 smoke 肉 meat: smoked meat - smoked ham.

Bacon.

> ["(火腿,烟肉)餐肉蛋三文治"] (Ham, Smoked Ham) Luncheon Meat and Egg
> Sandwich
> 餐肉 may be a shortening for 午 midday 餐 meal 肉 : luncheon meat;

... the most famous brand of which is SPAM.

The parentheses in the name are confusing. It is probably just
"Ham, bacon or SPAM Sandwhich".

-----

> ["生炒牛肉饭"] 生 raw, give birth 炒 fry [...]

生炒 is a particular style of Cantinese cooking that uses
a Ketchup-like sauce.

-----

> ["拿破仑炒意粉"] 拿 take in the hand, grasp 破 break open, destroy 仑
> human relationship : Napolean, Neapolitan, Napoli.

拿破仑 is the standard transcription for Napoleon [Bonaparte],
_not_ Naples. The standard transcription for the latter is
那不勒斯. I wonder if the designer of the Chinese menu mistook
one for the other.

OTOH, the flaky puff pastry "Napolean" is sometimes called
"Neapolitan" as well...

> 炒 stirfry 意 idea, meaning, desire, wish : Abbreviation for
> 意大利 Italy/Italian. 粉 powder abbreviation for 面粉 or rather
> 麵粉 wheat flour made noodle type foodstuffs. Hence 意粉 refers
> to italian pasta.

In practice, "意粉" is used only for spaghetti/linguini, never
other types of pasta. E.g., macaroni (elbows) are called 通心粉
(hollow pasta); (small) shells, 蜆殼粉 (clam shell pasta), etc.

-----

> ["焗肉酱意粉"] Baked Spaghetti Bolognaise
> 肉 meat 酱 sauce : bolognaise sauce [...]

The standard spaghetti in tomato sauce with minced meat. I
suppose few diners would take "Bolognaise" literally as the
true _ragù_alla_bolognese_.

Note that a lot of Hong Kong restaurateurs interpret
tomato based pasta sauce as something that tastes like
Campbell tomato soup.

-----

> ["吉列猪扒饭"] 吉 prospitious, lucky. 列 to arrange, to line up,
> row, file, series : may be a Chinese rendering of Chilli from
> the homophone 激烈 ji lie = intense sharp fierce accute.

吉列 is actually a transcription for "cutlet/côtelette".

----- -----

Menu 4

> ["干炒牛河"] 干 is the simplified character for 幹 which has the
> slang connotation seen in the menu for 'fuck', but my mild
> mannered dictionary [1] says 'offend'. The other meaning of 干
> is dry with the traditional character being 乾.

The literally meaning of 幹 is “to do/work”.

> [...] dry stirfried without sauce

As distinguished from "wet style stir fry", in which case the dish
would simply be "牛肉炒河". Actually, neither style has sauce mixed
in during the stir frying -- the sauce is added later. The "dry
style" uses more oil(*) and less water and the pasta is less moist
as a result.

(*) Thus, a "dry style" dish is traditional priced slightly higher
than its "wet style" counter part.

-----

> ["上汤云吞"] 云 cloud 吞 swallowing : Wonton - a type of Chinese
> ravioli which has a savoury meat filling wrapped in chinese egg
> pasta made of wheat. It is boiled, and the loose folds of pasta
> seem like 'clouds' being swallowed when eaten.

Or: "(fillings) swallowed by clouds". Note that the word 吞 is
used in the names of other dishes, e.g., 糯米吞鸡 (steamed
whole chicken filled with sticky rice -- and don't ask me why
it is not 鸡吞糯米.)

云吞 is sometimes written as 餛飩 (pronounced <hun2tun1> in
Mandarin), especially outside of Cantonese speaking areas.
However, there is sufficient regional variation of the
dumpling concept that so one might as well consider the two
to two distinct dishes.

Mixing egg into the flour when making the dough for the shells
is a particular to Cantonese dumplings only.

> ["上汤水饺"] 水 water 饺 dumpling. These are like wonton,
> but made differently and in a soup base

Note that "水饺" is a Cantonese dish and should not be confused
with "饺子", aka "Peking Revioli".

Traditionally, the difference between the Cantonese "云吞" and
the Cantonese "水饺" is that the former has minced pork for
filling and the latter has shrimp and bamboo shoots. The latter
is also bigger. (The soup is always the same.) Nowadays they
seem to be different only in size.

-----

> ["牛腩捞河粉"] 捞 scoop up

捞 in this case is not “to scoop up” but to “to mix together”.
The same character has two readings in Cantonese, [lau21]
meaning “to scoop up” and [lou11] meaning "to mix together”.
Only the first meaning exists in Mandarin. 捞X is boiled
pasta X served on a platter and mixed with a sauce; as
opposed to 汤X, pasta X served in a soup.

> 河粉 rice pasta akin to tagliatelli

A.k.a. "foon" in Chinatown menus.

-----

> ["窝蛋牛肉粥"] 窝 nest 蛋 egg : may be the egg is whisked and
> stirred in to the congee to form strands like the texture of
> 燕窝 yanwo birds nest hence the 'nest'.

窝蛋 is a raw or slightly cooked egg, served whole (sans shell),
suspended in the congee (or in the middle of a mound of rice, etc).
Any stirring is to be done by the customer. With an egg in the
middle, the surrounding congee/rice looks like a nest; hence
the name.

-----

> ["黑椒牛柳丝炒意粉"] 牛柳 beef slices 丝 strands

牛柳 is nominally beef tenderloin. However, the best and
most common cut of beef used in Chinese style stir fry
dishes is the flank steak.

丝: shreds.

-----

> ["三丝炒公子面"]

A typo here -- should be "公仔面". 子 and 仔 are homophonic in
Mandarin but not in Cantonese. Since 公仔 is a Cantonese
term not used in Mandarin, the mistake is a common one by
non-Cantonese speakers.

Evidently the designer of the Chinese menu is not Cantonese,
even though the text of the menu uses a lot of Cantonese regional
terms. (The entries are mostly Cantonse dishes and Hong Kong
interpretations of European/American cooking.)

-----

> ["干炒意面"] 意面 italian pasta

I suspect 意面 (<yi4 mian4> in Mandarin) is a typo of 伊面
(<yi1 mian4>), short for 伊府面, a kind of traditional
noodle made with egg mixed with flour and then deep fried
(not unlike the modern day instant noodles). When
subsequently re-soaked and boiled or stir fried, the noodle
puffs up slightly and gives a distinct texture.

Also, "干(乾)烧伊面" is a traditional Cantonese dish.

The story is that 伊府 ("House of Yi") is after 伊秉绶,
a famous 18th century caligrapher.

----- -----

Menu 5

> 煲 earthenware pot with a cover usually and a handle,
> 仔 diminutive, i.e. a small pot or small casserole with
> a handle.

煲仔 is a Cantonese term, even though the same kind of clay pot
is used everywhere in China. A clay pot dish is served in the
pot, which is taken directly from the stove to the table.

-----

> ["水煮"]

水煮 is a particular Sichuan cooking style that uses a very
spicy broth.

-----

> ["巴渝酸菜鱼"] Fish cooked with Sour Pickled Cabbage Bayu style
> 巴渝 is a placename in Szechwan or Sichuan

Actually, 巴 and 渝 are two different historical names of the area
around Chongqing 重庆,the largest city in Sichuan.

I think 酸菜 is more likely made from mustard green rather than
from cabbage.

-----

> ["鱼香茄子煲"] 鱼 fish 香 fragrant 茄子 aubergine, eggplant

鱼香 is a particular Sichuan cooking style that uses a spicy sauce
that has sugar and vinegar in it. It probably started out as a
specialty sauce for cooking fish, but eventually used on other
things. There is no "fish" in the "Fish Fragrant" sauce.

This page says that the sauce was invented only decades ago.
http://www.sichuantour.com/custom/detail.asp?ID=4

----- -----

Menu 6

> ["冻柠七"] 冻 cold, to freeze 柠 first character of 柠檬 "ning-meng"
> 'lemon', 七 seven, first character of 7起 or 7-up.

The Chinese (Hong Kong) name for Seven-Up is 七喜. 喜 ("happiness")
is homophonic with 起 ("up") in Cantonese.

> ["万宝路"]

Marlboro (the US brand).

----- -----

Menu 7

> ["跟牛油餐包"] 跟 follow. 牛油 butter. 餐 dinner. 包 bag, wrap, bun
> : short for 面包 or more properly 麵包 meaning 'bread'.

餐包 is dinner roll, usually the "egg twist" variety.

I.e., dinner roll served with butter.

-----

You might want to use "(phonetic) transcription" instead of "rendering"
throughout.

Tak

Dylan Sung

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Apr 13, 2006, 11:06:47 AM4/13/06
to

"Tak To" <ta...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jbCdnXdyGY7VwKPZ...@comcast.com...

> The following post is not available on some newsserver,
> probably due to the erroneous date.

Thanks TT, for taking the time to have a look and give your comments. If you
won't mind, I will copy and paste your message onto the page and upload it
when I have some time free.


-----
>
> You might want to use "(phonetic) transcription" instead of "rendering"
> throughout.
>
> Tak


I thought of that, but it's like pork fat, you need to render it out to get
something useful... :D

Dyl.


Lee Sau Dan

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Apr 13, 2006, 10:35:31 PM4/13/06
to
>>>>> "Tak" == Tak To <ta...@comcast.net> writes:

>> 海鲜 literally means 'fresh from the ocean' or 'ocean fresh'
>> [...]

Tak> 海鲜 Can be nicely translated as "fruits de mar" in this
Tak> context.

"Seafood" is an English word.

>> ["生炒牛肉饭"] 生 raw, give birth 炒 fry [...]

Tak> 生炒 is a particular style of Cantinese cooking that uses a
Tak> Ketchup-like sauce.

No. That dish has no Ketchup. That cooking style has nothing to do
with the sauce.

If you're thinking of the kind of fried rice with Ketchup-like sauce,
that should be 西炒飯 ("French" style fried rice) instead.

>> ["干炒牛河"] 干 is the simplified character for 幹 which has
>> the slang connotation seen in the menu for 'fuck',

What? What are you talking about?


>> but my mild mannered dictionary [1] says 'offend'.

It simply means "dry". How come you're so imaginative?


>> The other meaning of 干 is dry with the traditional character
>> being 乾.

You now see why simplified characters suck?


Tak> The literally meaning of 幹 is “to do/work”.

Right!


Tak> 云吞 is sometimes written as 餛飩 (pronounced <hun2tun1> in
Tak> Mandarin), especially outside of Cantonese speaking areas.

The Mandarin speakers tries to immitate the pronunciation of this
Cantonese term. (And I find this quite surprising!)


>> ["三丝炒公子面"]

Tak> A typo here -- should be "公仔面". 子 and 仔 are homophonic
Tak> in Mandarin

Not necessarily. Mandarin speakers pronounce HK's place name 灣仔
(Wanchai) as wan1zai3, not wan1zi3. They also pronounce 香港仔
(Aberdeen) as xiang1gang3zai3, not zi3.


Tak> but not in Cantonese. Since 公仔 is a Cantonese term not
Tak> used in Mandarin, the mistake is a common one by
Tak> non-Cantonese speakers.

It's indeed a Hong Kong brand name. Like "Xerox", this brand name has
become used as a generic term for all similar products (just like
"xerox" can now mean *any* photocopier, and "to xerox" can mean "to
photocopy", not necessarily with a machine made by Xerox). I'm not
sure how well accepted this term is outside HK (and Chinatowns
dominated by HK immigrants).


Tak> Menu 5

>> 煲 earthenware pot with a cover usually and a handle, 仔
>> diminutive, i.e. a small pot or small casserole with a handle.

Tak> 煲仔 is a Cantonese term, even though the same kind of clay
Tak> pot is used everywhere in China. A clay pot dish is served
Tak> in the pot, which is taken directly from the stove to the
Tak> table.

You two have not mentioned that a typical 煲仔 is made of porcelain.
Steel pots are not popularly used for such dishes in HK.


Tak> Actually, 巴 and 渝 are two different historical names of the
Tak> area around Chongqing 重庆,the largest city in Sichuan.

Politically, this city has already been detached from the Sichuan
province in early 1997. It is now a 直轄市 (directly administered
city), like Shanghai, Peking and Tianjin. Chongking is now the
biggest city in China, if not the world. The whole territory of this
directly administered city is comparable to the island Taiwan, and the
total population exceeds 30 million. (But this is about the whole
territory. The downtown area is still a small place. I always wonder
they call the whole territory a "city", instead of a "province".)

Tak> 鱼香 is a particular Sichuan cooking style that uses a spicy
Tak> sauce that has sugar and vinegar in it. It probably started
Tak> out as a specialty sauce for cooking fish, but eventually
Tak> used on other things. There is no "fish" in the "Fish
Tak> Fragrant" sauce.

There IS fish in this dish. It's minced dried fish (鹹魚).

--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}

E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee

Tak To

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Apr 14, 2006, 12:03:31 AM4/14/06
to
Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>>>>>>"Tak" == Tak To <ta...@comcast.net> writes:
>
> >> 海鲜 literally means 'fresh from the ocean' or 'ocean fresh'
> >> [...]
>
> Tak> 海鲜 Can be nicely translated as "fruits de mar" in this
> Tak> context.
>
> "Seafood" is an English word.

But not as fancy for menu writing purpose. :-)

----- -----

> >> ["生炒牛肉饭"] 生 raw, give birth 炒 fry [...]
>
> Tak> 生炒 is a particular style of Cantinese cooking that uses a
> Tak> Ketchup-like sauce.
>
> No. That dish has no Ketchup. That cooking style has nothing to do
> with the sauce.
>
> If you're thinking of the kind of fried rice with Ketchup-like sauce,
> that should be 西炒飯 ("French" style fried rice) instead.

No, I am not thinking of 西炒飯, which probably came from Piaya,
a Spanish dish.

There could be several styles of 生炒. How would you characterize
生炒牛肉饭 and 生炒排骨 if not by a sweet-and-sour sauce? 生炒排骨
to me is very similar to 咕魯肉.

----- -----

> >> ["干炒牛河"] 干 is the simplified character for 幹 which has
> >> the slang connotation seen in the menu for 'fuck',
>
> What? What are you talking about?

He meant as in "他干了她".

----- -----

> Tak> 云吞 is sometimes written as 餛飩 (pronounced <hun2tun1> in
> Tak> Mandarin), especially outside of Cantonese speaking areas.
>
> The Mandarin speakers tries to immitate the pronunciation of this
> Cantonese term. (And I find this quite surprising!)

Are you sure it is not the other way around?

I have never been convinced of the Canto-centric theory that
Cantonese wonton came first. I tend to think that food made
with wheat flour were imported from the north. 餛飩/云吞 is more
likely to be of Jiang-Zhe origin.

----- -----

> >> ["三丝炒公子面"]
>
> Tak> A typo here -- should be "公仔面". 子 and 仔 are homophonic
> Tak> in Mandarin
>
> Not necessarily. Mandarin speakers pronounce HK's place name 灣仔
> (Wanchai) as wan1zai3, not wan1zi3. They also pronounce 香港仔
> (Aberdeen) as xiang1gang3zai3, not zi3.

Only if they know about these place names. I found that a lot of
mainlander knows only the <zi3> pronunciation, if they know the
character at all.

----- -----

> Tak> Menu 5
>
> >> 煲 earthenware pot with a cover usually and a handle, 仔
> >> diminutive, i.e. a small pot or small casserole with a handle.
>
> Tak> 煲仔 is a Cantonese term, even though the same kind of clay
> Tak> pot is used everywhere in China. A clay pot dish is served
> Tak> in the pot, which is taken directly from the stove to the
> Tak> table.
>
> You two have not mentioned that a typical 煲仔 is made of porcelain.
> Steel pots are not popularly used for such dishes in HK.

I said "clay", didn't I?

It is coarse china really, with the inside glazed. Definitely not
porcelain.

----- -----

> Tak> 鱼香 is a particular Sichuan cooking style that uses a spicy
> Tak> sauce that has sugar and vinegar in it. It probably started
> Tak> out as a specialty sauce for cooking fish, but eventually
> Tak> used on other things. There is no "fish" in the "Fish
> Tak> Fragrant" sauce.
>
> There IS fish in this dish. It's minced dried fish (鹹魚).

I think you are wrong. See for example
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%B1%BC%E9%A6%99%E8%82%89%E4%B8%9D

Your way is probably a HK innovation. To me, the aroma of salted
fish is all wrong for the 鱼香 sauce.

Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

Dylan Sung

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Apr 14, 2006, 12:52:03 PM4/14/06
to

"Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in message
news:tZ-dnXAe8IGwg6LZ...@comcast.com...
> Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>
>> Tak> ?? is a particular Sichuan cooking style that uses a spicy

>> Tak> sauce that has sugar and vinegar in it. It probably started
>> Tak> out as a specialty sauce for cooking fish, but eventually
>> Tak> used on other things. There is no "fish" in the "Fish
>> Tak> Fragrant" sauce.
>>
>> There IS fish in this dish. It's minced dried fish (??).

>
> I think you are wrong. See for example
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%B1%BC%E9%A6%99%E8%82%89%E4%B8%9D
>
> Your way is probably a HK innovation. To me, the aroma of salted
> fish is all wrong for the ?? sauce.


No, I've had the dish before. It is salt cured fish meat in there with the
aubergines and minced pork. Its very nice actually. Like prawn paste with
that pongy aroma or smell, or the stinky tofu, its all in the taste.

Dyl.


Tak To

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Apr 14, 2006, 1:56:40 PM4/14/06
to
Dylan Sung wrote:

> "Tak To" <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote in message
> news:tZ-dnXAe8IGwg6LZ...@comcast.com...
>
>>Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>>

Tak To wrote:
TT.0> <yu2xiang1> is a particular Sichuan cooking style that uses a spicy
TT.0> sauce that has sugar and vinegar in it. It probably started
TT.0> out as a specialty sauce for cooking fish, but eventually
TT.0> used on other things. There is no "fish" in the "Fish
TT.0> Fragrant" sauce.

Lee Sau Dan wrote:
LSD.1> There IS fish in this dish. It's minced dried fish (??).

TT.2> I think you are wrong. See for example
TT.2> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%B1%BC%E9%A6%99%E8%82%89%E4%B8%9D
TT.2>
TT.2> Your way is probably a HK innovation. To me, the aroma of salted
TT.2> fish is all wrong for the <yu2xiang1> sauce.

Dylan Sung wrote:
DS.3> No, I've had the dish before. It is salt cured fish meat in there
DS.3> with the aubergines and minced pork. Its very nice actually. Like
DS.3> prawn paste with that pongy aroma or smell, or the stinky tofu,
DS.3> its all in the taste.

With due respect, I think the dish that you had was not authentic
<yu2xiang1>. The article that I mentioned said quite unequivocally
that there is no fish in the "fish fragrant" sauce, and it seemed
to be a well researched article.

Don't get me wrong. I like the aroma of shrimp paste and salt cured
fish. However, that kind of aroma is not in the <yu2xiang1> sauce
that I know.

I would also think that food items such as shrimp paste and salt
cured fish are more of a coastal tradition.

Lee Sau Dan

unread,
Apr 15, 2006, 1:05:53 AM4/15/06
to
>>>>> "Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:

Tak> There could be several styles of 生炒. How would you
Tak> characterize 生炒牛肉饭 and 生炒排骨 if not by a
Tak> sweet-and-sour sauce?

Frying.


Tak> 生炒排骨to me is very similar to 咕魯肉.

Both involve frying.

The 生炒牛肉饭 in HK does not contain any tomatoes. It doesn't even
look red or pink. (i.e. no signs of any tomatoe oil/paste)


>> Not necessarily. Mandarin speakers pronounce HK's place name
>> 灣仔 (Wanchai) as wan1zai3, not wan1zi3. They also pronounce
>> 香港仔 (Aberdeen) as xiang1gang3zai3, not zi3.

Tak> Only if they know about these place names. I found that a
Tak> lot of mainlander knows only the <zi3> pronunciation, if they
Tak> know the character at all.

Or it's a mispronunciations, due to the 有邊讀邊 rule?


Tak> I think you are wrong. See for example
Tak> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%B1%BC%E9%A6%99%E8%82%89%E4%B8%9D

Tak> Your way is probably a HK innovation. To me, the aroma of
Tak> salted fish is all wrong for the 鱼香 sauce.

That's how 魚香茄子煲 taste like in HK.

Lee Sau Dan

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Apr 15, 2006, 1:10:20 AM4/15/06
to
>>>>> "Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:

DS.3> No, I've had the dish before. It is salt cured fish meat in

DS.3> there with the aubergines and minced pork. Its very nice
DS.3> actually. Like prawn paste with that pongy aroma or smell,
DS.3> or the stinky tofu, its all in the taste.

Tak> With due respect, I think the dish that you had was not
Tak> authentic <yu2xiang1>.

Probably. That's HK or Cantonese style <yu2xiang1>, not necessarily
Si4chuan1 style. HK restaurants also offers "Singaporean fried
rice-noodles", which you can hardly find in Singapore, because it's a
HK invention with a foreign place name. And HK's "yang2zhou1 fried
rice" doesn't necessarily taste or look like what you can find in
yang2zhou1.


Tak> The article that I mentioned said quite unequivocally that
Tak> there is no fish in the "fish fragrant" sauce, and it seemed
Tak> to be a well researched article.

wikipedia could be wrong.


Tak> Don't get me wrong. I like the aroma of shrimp paste and
Tak> salt cured fish. However, that kind of aroma is not in the
Tak> <yu2xiang1> sauce that I know.

Tak> I would also think that food items such as shrimp paste and
Tak> salt cured fish are more of a coastal tradition.

There are fish and shrimps in rivers, too. And you should know that
there are rivers in Si4chuan1 from its name.

Tak To

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Apr 15, 2006, 3:41:31 PM4/15/06
to
Lee Sau Dan wrote:

>>>>>>"Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:
>
>
> Tak> There could be several styles of 生炒. How would you
> Tak> characterize 生炒牛肉饭 and 生炒排骨 if not by a
> Tak> sweet-and-sour sauce?
>
> Frying.

Deep-frying or stir-frying? And what kind of sauce or glaze?

>
> Tak> 生炒排骨to me is very similar to 咕魯肉.
>
> Both involve frying.
>
> The 生炒牛肉饭 in HK does not contain any tomatoes. It doesn't even
> look red or pink. (i.e. no signs of any tomatoe oil/paste)

What kind of sauce/glaze for either of them? It is not sweet
and sour in taste?

Ketchup does not have to have tomato either.

----- -----

> >> Not necessarily. Mandarin speakers pronounce HK's place name
> >> 灣仔 (Wanchai) as wan1zai3, not wan1zi3. They also pronounce
> >> 香港仔 (Aberdeen) as xiang1gang3zai3, not zi3.
>
> Tak> Only if they know about these place names. I found that a
> Tak> lot of mainlander knows only the <zi3> pronunciation, if they
> Tak> know the character at all.
>
> Or it's a mispronunciations, due to the 有邊讀邊 rule?

More likely from the term 仔細 <zi3xi4> ("careful"). Some small
dictionaries list only this reading.

For the other reading the character 崽 is used.

Lee Sau Dan

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Apr 15, 2006, 10:44:12 PM4/15/06
to
>>>>> "Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:

Tak> Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>>>>>>> "Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:
Tak> There could be several styles of 生炒. How would you
Tak> characterize 生炒牛肉饭 and 生炒排骨 if not by a
Tak> sweet-and-sour sauce?
>> Frying.

Tak> Deep-frying or stir-frying?

Stir-frying, although the meat cubs in 生炒排骨 have been prefried (走
油).


Tak> And what kind of sauce or glaze?

Sauce is not that relevant in Chinese cuisine. esp. in Cantonese
cuisine, where the natural juice of the ingredients that comes out
during the cooking forms the so called "sauce". A dish can be quite
dry, too. Like 生炒牛肉饭. If you have to say there is a "sauce" for
生炒牛肉饭, I'd tell you it's the oil used to fry the rice, as well as
the spinkles of salt.


Tak> 生炒排骨to me is very similar to 咕魯肉.
>> Both involve frying. The 生炒牛肉饭 in HK does not contain any
>> tomatoes. It doesn't even look red or pink. (i.e. no signs of
>> any tomatoe oil/paste)

Tak> What kind of sauce/glaze for either of them? It is not sweet
Tak> and sour in taste?

生炒牛肉饭 has no sauce, other than the oil used to fry it. It's
salty and has a beef-like taste. No sweetness nor sourness. Chinese
cuisines do not use sauce often.


Tak> Ketchup does not have to have tomato either.

No ketchup in 生炒牛肉饭.

Tak To

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Apr 16, 2006, 11:20:11 AM4/16/06
to
Tak To wrote:
TT.0 > There could be several styles of 生炒. How would you
TT.0> characterize 生炒牛肉饭 and 生炒排骨 if not by a
TT.0> sweet-and-sour sauce?

Lee Sau Dan wrote:
LSD.1> Frying.

TT.2> Deep-frying or stir-frying?

LSD.3> Stir-frying, although the meat cubs in 生炒排骨 have been
LSD.3> prefried (走油).
LSD.3>
LSD.3> Sauce is not that relevant in Chinese cuisine. esp.
LSD.3> in Cantonese cuisine, where the natural juice of the
LSD.3> ingredients that comes out during the cooking forms the
LSD.3> so called "sauce".

So there is a sauce, even though there might not be a lot of
it and it might not be prepared separately. The sauce embodies
the taste and identifies the seasoning used in the dish. That
was why I asked about the sauce.

The reason why the word "sauce" is preferrable to "juice" is
because typically, a little bit of thickener (e.g., corn starch)
is used. (The thickener can be added during the marination
process.)

SD.3> A dish can be quite dry, too. Like 生炒牛肉饭. If you
LSD.3> have to say there is a "sauce" for 生炒牛肉饭, I'd tell
LSD.3> you it's the oil used to fry the rice, as well as the
LSD.3> spinkles of salt.

So the beef in the fried rice is as dried as that found in
乾炒牛河? And no soy sauce or any other seasoning besides the
salt?

What ahout 生炒排骨? Any seasoning?

------ ------

In any case, I think your version of 生炒 is quite different
from mine.

Please note that I never said that there is tomato product used
in my version of 生炒, I only said there is a "ketchup-like"
sauce, sweet and sour but not overwhelmingly so. I did not say
there is a not of it or that it is prepared separately.

Also, in my version, 生炒牛肉饭 and 生炒排骨 have the same sauce.
I am still unable to determine if the same holds for your
two dishes.

Lee Sau Dan

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Apr 17, 2006, 12:37:26 AM4/17/06
to
>>>>> "Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:

Tak> The reason why the word "sauce" is preferrable to "juice" is
Tak> because typically, a little bit of thickener (e.g., corn
Tak> starch) is used. (The thickener can be added during the
Tak> marination process.)

Not necessarily. In Cantonese cuisine, that liquid is usually just
the juice. esp. for steamed dishes. where the juice is diluted by the
condensed steam.

SD.3> A dish can be quite dry, too. Like 生炒牛肉饭. If you

LSD.3> have to say there is a "sauce" for 生炒牛肉饭, I'd tell you
LSD.3> it's the oil used to fry the rice, as well as the spinkles
LSD.3> of salt.

Tak> So the beef in the fried rice is as dried as that found in 乾
Tak> 炒牛河?

Right.


Tak> And no soy sauce or any other seasoning besides the salt?

No. Just salt. Maybe a sprinkle of pepper powder.


Tak> What ahout 生炒排骨? Any seasoning?

That's sweet and sour sauce. Very different from 生炒牛肉饭.

Tak> Please note that I never said that there is tomato product
Tak> used in my version of 生炒, I only said there is a
Tak> "ketchup-like" sauce,

Then, you have to define what that means.


Tak> sweet and sour but not overwhelmingly so.

That isn't the taste of 生炒牛肉饭.


Tak> Also, in my version, 生炒牛肉饭 and 生炒排骨 have the same
Tak> sauce.

These two dishes have very different in tastes and looks in HK
restaurants.


Tak> I am still unable to determine if the same holds for your two
Tak> dishes.

It doesn't hold at all.

Tak To

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Apr 17, 2006, 11:08:30 AM4/17/06
to
Lee Sau Dan wrote:
>>>>>>"Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:
>
>
> Tak> The reason why the word "sauce" is preferrable to "juice" is
> Tak> because typically, a little bit of thickener (e.g., corn
> Tak> starch) is used. (The thickener can be added during the
> Tak> marination process.)
>
> Not necessarily. In Cantonese cuisine, that liquid is usually just
> the juice. esp. for steamed dishes. where the juice is diluted by the
> condensed steam.

I was talking about stir-fry dishes.

> SD.3> A dish can be quite dry, too. Like 生炒牛肉饭. If you
> LSD.3> have to say there is a "sauce" for 生炒牛肉饭, I'd tell you
> LSD.3> it's the oil used to fry the rice, as well as the spinkles
> LSD.3> of salt.
>
> Tak> So the beef in the fried rice is as dried as that found in 乾
> Tak> 炒牛河?
>
> Right.
>
> Tak> And no soy sauce or any other seasoning besides the salt?
>
> No. Just salt. Maybe a sprinkle of pepper powder.

OK.

> Tak> What ahout 生炒排骨? Any seasoning?
>
> That's sweet and sour sauce. Very different from 生炒牛肉饭.

At least we agree on something! :-)

Lee Sau Dan

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Apr 17, 2006, 11:27:06 AM4/17/06
to
>>>>> "Tak" == Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> writes:

>> Not necessarily. In Cantonese cuisine, that liquid is usually
>> just the juice. esp. for steamed dishes. where the juice is
>> diluted by the condensed steam.

Tak> I was talking about stir-fry dishes.

Me too. e.g. we stir-fry vegetables without any special sauces. Just
"start the wok" with some oil and garlic (and sometimes a few rings of
chilli), and then add in the chopped vegetables. And then stir and
fry and serve. No need to add sauces.

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