loanwords without source
Helmut Richter
phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
language. Examples are:
- German "Handy", obviously a loanword from English, is called a
mobile phone in English. The English word "handy" has an unrelated
(albeit cognate - as both are derived from Germanic "hand") meaning.
- German "Politesse" (policewoman, see footnote), is formed according
to French rules, but has an unrelated meaning (politeness) there.
- German "Friseur" (hairdresser), now spelt "Frisör", does not exist
in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
Now my question: is it a wide-spread phenomenon in other languages as
well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
word in question does not exist there?
I am not so much interested in those cases where there is a minor
shift in meaning (German "clever" = English "crafty", not "clever"),
or where the source word exists but is not the commonest for the
purpose (a "stewardess" is more commonly called a "flight attendant"
in English, but the word "stewardess" exists with the same meaning; a
"goulash" is more commonly called a "pörkölt" in Hungarian, but the
word "gulyás" exists with the same meaning).
_____
Footnote: The word "Politesse" was invented in the 1960ies when there
were no female police officers in Germany. It meant a woman in uniform
that would take over some easy duties of police officers that can be
performed without full training, e.g. issuing tickets for illegal
parking. Now as there are female full-fledged police officers, they
are not called "Politesse", as this word implies skimpy education for
the job, but rather "Polizistin". The connection between "Politesse"
and "Polizei" is now no longer perceived as logical.
Roger Espel Llima
Helmut Richter <Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
>- German "Friseur" (hairdresser), now spelt "Frisör", does not exist
> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
but didn't it exist at the time the German word appeared?
--
Roger Espel Llima, es...@iagora.com
http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/espel/index.html
mith...@indiana.edu
Andreas Lueder wrote:
> In article <7oe4vu$26r$1...@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>,
> Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de wrote:
>
> > In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
> > phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
> > language. Examples are:
>
> Korean has many such loanwords. One of my favorites is "skinship",
> which is used, I believe, to describe a personal relationship whose
> parties feel close enough to each other to allow physical contact.
Another good one in Korean is "eye shopping" for window shopping. MAT
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
I always liked "back mirror" for "rear-view mirror". It sounds like an
Australian term to me. In any case, it's sensible and simpler and I
wouldn't mind seeing it adopted.
The term also exists in Japanese, which has hoards of these kinds of
words.
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Roger Espel Llima <es...@iagora.com> wrote:
>In article <7oe4vu$26r$1...@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>,
>>
>>- German "Friseur" (hairdresser), now spelt "Frisör", does not exist
>> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
>
>but didn't it exist at the time the German word appeared?
I wonder. The oldest reference I have on hand is a German grammar of
French from 1826, and it already lists <un co"effeur [sic] ein Damen-
fris"or>. When would it have been borrowed? 17th century? Early 18th?
Both Duden and Wahrig call <Friseur> a German coinage.
Trygve S. Håland
news:FG1pB...@midway.uchicago.edu...
> Both Duden and Wahrig call <Friseur> a German coinage.
Bokmålsordlisten (a Norwegian online dictionary) claims that the Norwegian
equivalent "frisør" is from French, and that it literally means "someone who
makes curls". The same dictionary claims that the French verb "friser" means
"to make curls". I tend to believe everything I read (especially on the
internet), so I guess this must be correct.
Trygve S. Håland
Pierre Jelenc
"Friseur" does not exist in common modern French, but it could, in that
the suffix "-eur" is somewhat productive and readily analysable.
I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that the term did exist
with the meaning of "someone who cleans and shapes wigs" but I can't find
it in any dictionary at hand.
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc | The Cucumbers' "Total Vegetility" is out!
| Pawnshop's "Three Brass Balls" is out!
The New York City Beer Guide | RAW Kinder's "CD EP" is out!
http://www.nycbeer.org | Home Office Records http://www.web-ho.com
Éamonn McManus
> Roger Espel Llima <es...@iagora.com> wrote:
> >Helmut Richter <Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
> >>- German "Friseur" (hairdresser), now spelt "Frisör", does not exist
> >> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
> >but didn't it exist at the time the German word appeared?
> I wonder. The oldest reference I have on hand is a German grammar of
> French from 1826, and it already lists <un co"effeur [sic] ein Damen-
> fris"or>. When would it have been borrowed? 17th century? Early 18th?
My Larousse Lexis dates "coiffeur" from 1647, so it certainly could
have been as early as that.
> Both Duden and Wahrig call <Friseur> a German coinage.
The verb "friser" does exist. My partner is a French hairdresser and
uses its participle all the time, distinguishing between "cheveux bouclés"
(curly hair), "cheveux frisés" (tightly-curled hair), and "cheveux crépus"
(frizzy hair). But the same dictionary doesn't recognise "friseur"
as a known word; I think it would be more likely to be understood as
some sort of apparatus than as a person.
,
Eamonn http://www.gr.opengroup.org/~emcmanus
'"Daum" marries her pedantic automaton "George" in May 1970, John Heartfield
is very glad of it.' -- Picture by Grosz, http://kah-bonn.de/1/20/08.htm
Sean Holland
> Korean has many such loanwords. One of my favorites is "skinship",
> which is used, I believe, to describe a personal relationship whose
> parties feel close enough to each other to allow physical contact.
>
> I have met Koreans who insist that this word has a meaning in English,
> also.
>
I have always thought the Japanese came up with "skinship". It seems
possible that the Japanese invented it (they are notorious for inventing
English words), and then the Koreans borrowed it, so it is a "meta-fake"
English word.
Ben
Helmut Richter <Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de> wrote in message
news:7oe4vu$26r$1...@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de...
> In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
> phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
> language. Examples are:
>
> mobile phone in English. The English word "handy" has an unrelated
> (albeit cognate - as both are derived from Germanic "hand") meaning.
>
> - German "Politesse" (policewoman, see footnote), is formed according
> to French rules, but has an unrelated meaning (politeness) there.
>
> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
>
> well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
> according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
> word in question does not exist there?
there was a recent thread about the company "Faconable" which is a clothing
company, even though the word's meaning in French is closer to "malleable."
Gilles Larouche
>De : Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de (Helmut Richter)
Dans l'article <7oe4vu$26r$1...@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>,
Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de (Helmut Richter) a écrit :
> In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
> phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
> language. Examples are:
>
> - German "Friseur" (hairdresser), now spelt "Frisör", does not exist
> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
>
> Now my question: is it a wide-spread phenomenon in other languages as
> well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
> according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
> word in question does not exist there?
>
Well If that can help you the word friseur exist in french canadian to
designate an apparatus to curl hair, some sort of "haircurler" I guess.
And it would also be promptly recognise as referring to a person whose
specific task is to curl hair.
P.S. It would have been easier for me to tell you that in french, since it
is my native language.
Gilles
Joseph C Fineman
English coinage "tennisman" (for tennis player) in French.
--- Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
||: We console ourselves by giving good advice when we are too :||
||: old to set a bad example. :||
Paul Davidson
--
> Well If that can help you the word friseur exist in french canadian to
> designate an apparatus to curl hair, some sort of "haircurler" I guess.
>
> And it would also be promptly recognise as referring to a person whose
> specific task is to curl hair.
>
> P.S. It would have been easier for me to tell you that in french, since it
> is my native language.
>
> Gilles
Certainement, vous pouvez nous parlez en français, beaucoup de nous le
parlent ou l'apprennent (moi, e.g.).
Paul Davidson
Bill Vaughan
Richter) wrote:
>In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
>phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
>language. Examples are:
>
>- German "Handy", obviously a loanword from English, is called a
> mobile phone in English. The English word "handy" has an unrelated
> (albeit cognate - as both are derived from Germanic "hand") meaning.
I wonder whether there was once a brand name like "handy-phone?"
Another possibility is that it cones from "handie-talkie," an old term
for a two-way hand-held radio (British usage, I think -- usually
"walkie-talkie" in the US).
>- German "Politesse" (policewoman, see footnote), is formed according
> to French rules, but has an unrelated meaning (politeness) there.
>
>- German "Friseur" (hairdresser), now spelt "Frisör", does not exist
> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
>
>Now my question: is it a wide-spread phenomenon in other languages as
>well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
>according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
>word in question does not exist there?
My favorite is "ginkgo," which not only does not occur in the supposed
source language, it is not even phonologically possible there. The
usual explanation goes like this: the tree we call "ginkgo" is
actually called something else in Japanese (can't remember what), and
its name is written with two Kanji with the appropriate pronunciation
and meaning. However, like most Kanji, these have an assortment of
readings, and taken in isolation they might well have been read "gin"
and "kyo." So when such a tree was first shipped from Japan to the
West (don't know where or when) its Kanji designation was erroneously
glossed "ginkyo" in Roman characters. Presumably, this gloss was not
in the best of handwriting, for when the tree arrived at its
destination, the "y" was confused with "g," resulting -- after two
successive errors -- in an utterly-impossible loanword.
Harlan Messinger
>In article <s2deo7...@rajpur.iagora.es>,
>Roger Espel Llima <es...@iagora.com> wrote:
>>In article <7oe4vu$26r$1...@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>,
>>Helmut Richter <Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>- German "Friseur" (hairdresser), now spelt "Frisör", does not exist
>>> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
>>
>>but didn't it exist at the time the German word appeared?
>
>I wonder. The oldest reference I have on hand is a German grammar of
>French from 1826, and it already lists <un co"effeur [sic] ein Damen-
>fris"or>. When would it have been borrowed? 17th century? Early 18th?
>
>Both Duden and Wahrig call <Friseur> a German coinage.
The first edition of the Dictionnaire de L'Académie française from
1694 likewise lacks "friseur", but has "frisure": "Façon de friser.
Cette frisure est belle."
--
Harlan Messinger
There are no Zs in my actual e-mail address.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> wrote:
>Jacques Barzun, IIRC, complains somewhere about a recent pseudo-
>English coinage "tennisman" (for tennis player) in French.
Reminds me of French "recordman". (A deejay? Nope--a record holder.)
Sean Holland
>
>
> My favorite is "ginkgo," which not only does not occur in the supposed
> source language, it is not even phonologically possible there. The
> usual explanation goes like this: the tree we call "ginkgo" is
> actually called something else in Japanese (can't remember what), and
> its name is written with two Kanji with the appropriate pronunciation
> and meaning. However, like most Kanji, these have an assortment of
> readings, and taken in isolation they might well have been read "gin"
> and "kyo." So when such a tree was first shipped from Japan to the
> West (don't know where or when) its Kanji designation was erroneously
> glossed "ginkyo" in Roman characters. Presumably, this gloss was not
> in the best of handwriting, for when the tree arrived at its
> destination, the "y" was confused with "g," resulting -- after two
> successive errors -- in an utterly-impossible loanword.
>
The Japanese word is "ginnan", written with the kanji for silver and
apricot. The "nan" kanji does have "kyoo" as an alternate reading, just as
you say.
Mike Wright
>
> In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
> phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
> language. Examples are:
>
> - German "Handy", obviously a loanword from English, is called a
> mobile phone in English. The English word "handy" has an unrelated
> (albeit cognate - as both are derived from Germanic "hand") meaning.
>
> to French rules, but has an unrelated meaning (politeness) there.
>
> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
>
> well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
> according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
> word in question does not exist there?
>
> shift in meaning (German "clever" = English "crafty", not "clever"),
> or where the source word exists but is not the commonest for the
> purpose (a "stewardess" is more commonly called a "flight attendant"
> in English, but the word "stewardess" exists with the same meaning; a
> "goulash" is more commonly called a "pörkölt" in Hungarian, but the
> word "gulyás" exists with the same meaning).
I've heard that English "decoupage" is not used with the same meaning in French,
but the dictionary doesn't make it clear whether it fits your criterion exactly.
How about "ketchup" going from "brine of pickled fish or shell-fish" in China
125 years ago to a kind of tomato sauce in modern English?
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Peter T. Daniels
>
> de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) writes:
>
> >Reminds me of French "recordman". (A deejay? Nope--a record holder.)
>
> German "Showmaster" - TV show host
> similarly "Talkmaster" - chat show host
Funny, we sometimes have jocular "Talkmeister" for the latter. (But we
call them talk shows, not chat shows, in the US.)
But ... What's a "record holder"? In the context "not a DJ," I was
thinking LPs, but in isolation, I suppose it's current world champion at
something?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Nikos Sarantakos
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>In article <FG2D2...@world.std.com>,
>Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> wrote:
>>Jacques Barzun, IIRC, complains somewhere about a recent pseudo-
>>English coinage "tennisman" (for tennis player) in French.
>
>Reminds me of French "recordman". (A deejay? Nope--a record holder.)
>--
> Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
> (de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
> /____\ gegen die Kunst!
This 'recordman' exists also in Greek -although transliterated.
ns
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
What do they do with the <d>? <nt>? Or do they drop it altogether (as
many French speakers do)?
Ben
China
>125 years ago to a kind of tomato sauce in modern English?
Actually "ketchup" means a sauce made with vinegar. It's just that tomato
ketchup happens to be the most common. Same with "relish." There are many
different kinds of relishes out there, we just happen to be most familiar
with pickle relish.
Brian M. Scott
[...]
> Certainement, vous pouvez nous parlez en français, beaucoup de nous le
> parlent ou l'apprennent (moi, e.g.).
Just out of curiosity, is it customary to use the Latin abbreviations in
French? I thought that French, like German, generally abbreviated the
home-grown expressions.
Brian M. Scott
Pierre Jelenc
>
> The first edition of the Dictionnaire de L'Académie française from
> 1694 likewise lacks "friseur", but has "frisure": "Façon de friser.
> Cette frisure est belle."
Ah. So the Swedish "frisyr" may have been the original borrowing, and
"frisör" a secondary coinage.
Pierre Jelenc
> Jacques Barzun, IIRC, complains somewhere about a recent pseudo-
> English coinage "tennisman" (for tennis player) in French.
Recent? As what, 1920's?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Joseph C Fineman <j...@world.std.com> writes:
> > Jacques Barzun, IIRC, complains somewhere about a recent pseudo-
> > English coinage "tennisman" (for tennis player) in French.
>
> Recent? As what, 1920's?
Even the dinosaur Jacques Barzun is not old enough to have been publicly
complaining in the 1920s.
Jukka Korpela
message <7oe4vu$26r$1...@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>:
>- - is it a wide-spread phenomenon in other languages as
>well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
>according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
>word in question does not exist there?
It appears to be relatively common. In fact, the English language has
lots of them - namely "Latin" words which did not exist in classical
or even medieval Latin (and if they are used in "modern Latin", that's
because it has adopted them from English or other languages). For
example, "computational" takes all its ingredients from Latin, but
there's no such word in Latin.
The phenomenon can be explained as a result of two simpler phenomena:
simple loanwords (i.e. words adopted as such, except for natural
changes due to differences in phonetic systems) and adoption of
derivational suffixes. For obvious reasons, the latter is less common,
but by no means rare. And it usually occurs so that when a language
has several loanwords carrying the same foreign suffix in them, new
words might be formed according to the pattern. This might first be
just playing with words, by children and youngsters and in slang and
with a humorous purpose, then be promoted to a more or less approved
part of the language.
So, after starting to play with foreign suffixes, one might casually
combine them with words of foreign origin, perhaps - if one knows the
foreign language well enough - with words that don't appear as
loanwords (yet) in one's own language. And it may then happen that the
resulting formation appears in the foreign language too, with a
different meaning.
--
Yucca, http://www.hut.fi/u/jkorpela/
Paul Davidson
Brian M. Scott <BMS...@stratos.net> wrote in message
news:37AC58...@stratos.net...
I don't know, good question. The only French equivalent I can think of is
"par example". Would they use "p.e." for short?
Paul Davidson
Nikos Sarantakos
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>In article <37ac4b6a...@news.forthnet.gr>,
>Nikos Sarantakos <sar...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>>On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 05:08:10 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
>>Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>>
>>
>>This 'recordman' exists also in Greek -although transliterated.
>
>What do they do with the <d>? <nt>? Or do they drop it altogether (as
>many French speakers do)?
>--
It is written 'nt' and pronounced <d>, i.e. <rekordman>, although the
cluster <rdm> is awkward in Greek and I can imagine <d> being
dropped.
As an aside, Modern Greek pronounciation is increasingly being
desanalized, so former <nd> clusters are now being pronounced
<d>. Many deplore the fact, but it seems a losing battle in mainstream
pronounciation, although
the nasals are being preserved in various regions (e.g. Aegean
islands).
ns
Nikos Sarantakos
>In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
>phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
>language. Examples are:
>
>- German "Handy", obviously a loanword from English, is called a
> mobile phone in English. The English word "handy" has an unrelated
> (albeit cognate - as both are derived from Germanic "hand") meaning.
>
>- German "Politesse" (policewoman, see footnote), is formed according
> to French rules, but has an unrelated meaning (politeness) there.
>
>- German "Friseur" (hairdresser), now spelt "Frisör", does not exist
> in French, where the word for hairdresser is "coiffeur".
>
>Now my question: is it a wide-spread phenomenon in other languages as
>well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
>according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
>word in question does not exist there?
>
Well, I presume that words of alleged Greek origin are not what you
are interested in, since in many languages there are loads of such
words that did not exist in Greek.
These Greek words are not restricted to scientific neologisms. My
preferred example comes from Spanish. I was reading a "Guide to
good Spanish" (an El Pais publication), where it was recommended
to avoid the overuse of "sexy" in Spanish and to prefer, instead,
"erotico" or "sicaliptico". Both those words are from Greek, but the
latter does not seem to have ever existed in Greek.
ns
Cluster User
european languages coined words based on latin (or graeco-latin).
a few of them, especially the ones derived grammetically like
"junhu:riyya(t)" "republic", made it into modern standard arabic as
well as colloquial arabic.
an'ane supposedly from `an`ana(t) based on arabic `an "from" was a
coined wourd. it incorrectly recieved the relative form ("tradfional")
an'anevi^ rather than arab grammatical ananiyy. arabic `an is used
very frequently in relating pious traditions.
although ottoman grammerians loathed them, pseudo-arabic froms were
given to persian and turkish words:
ayrI ("seperate" - turkish) / ayrIyyeten (seperately, in
addition to) arabic relatibe and arabic adverbial accusative.
na^zik (delicate, persian) / neza^ket (graciousness, politeness -
arabic verbal noun form for what was percieved as the arabic active
participle.
tIra$, tra$ (persian tera$; to shave) / matru$ (clean shaven;
maTru:$ - passive participale from from percieved arabic verbal
noun form.
Tom Wier
> It feels like marketing speak with a vague connection to German "Hand"
> (to emphasize the fact that the mobile is hand-held, as opposed to those
> brick-like boxes they had in the 80s which you carried like a suit case),
> a cute sounding y ending, and trendy English pronunciation added.
> An invention by marketing droids (if you were familiar with German
> marketing speak you'd know they like to obscure^H^H^H^H^H embellish
> their phrases with lots of pseudo-English vocabulary), maybe once used
> in an advertisement and continued to thrive from there.
No kidding. I recently picked up a couple copies of _Der Spiegel_
and was quite shocked to see just about every advertisement with
some English in it, some entirely in English. I asked a couple Germans
that I knew, who said it was normal, and complained that soon, they
thought, "there'd be no German left".
===========================================
Tom Wier <arta...@mail.utexas.edu>
AIM: Deuterotom ICQ: 4315704
<http://www.angelfire.com/tx/eclectorium/>
"Cogito ergo sum, sed credo ergo ero."
===========================================
Tore Lund
>
> As an aside, Modern Greek pronounciation is increasingly being
> desanalized, so former <nd> clusters are now being pronounced
> <d>. Many deplore the fact, but it seems a losing battle in mainstream
> pronounciation, although
> the nasals are being preserved in various regions (e.g. Aegean
> islands).
At least, this helps perfect consistency of pronunciation. The way
things are now, <mp>, <nt> and <gk> are the only ambiguous elements in
the otherwise strict system of many-to-one correspondences between
writing and pronunciation in Modern Greek - AFAIK.
--
Tore Lund <tl...@online.no>
João Luiz
>
> In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
> phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
> language. Examples are:
> Now my question: is it a wide-spread phenomenon in other languages as
> well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
> according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
> word in question does not exist there?
I don't know if this fits, but during WWII there were US-American marines
in bases of the northern coast of Brazil. They went there to parties,
which were open to the general public, and which they called "for all".
People heard that, and the word ended up entering the Portuguese language
as "forró", which now designates these kinds of parties, where a typical
northeastern music is played, and this specific kind of music is now
called "música de forró", and the specific dance associated to it "(dança
de) forró".
Another famous case comes from the same period. In Brazil people are
generally referred to/called by their forenames. The governor of the
state of Maranhão in the same period was called Ney (I don't know the
family name, but it is easy to discover). Anyway, in their contacts with
him, US-American officers would call him respectfully "Sir" Ney. Other
people (Brazilians) heard that and began called him like that. (I don't
know if in the beginning ironically or because it was chique to say it
in English.) Anyway, it spread so much that the man ended up being known
as "Sarney", that he ended up adopting as nickname in elections. Since
there is a lot in a family name (see the Kennedys), his son also adopted
Sarney as "political surname", and under the name José Sarney has built
all his political life, culminating in being the brazilian president from
1985-1990(?) (he is now a senator). The name was adopted by the whole clan.
His son, Sarney Jr., is a Congress representative, his daughter, Roseane
Sarney, presently the governor of Maranhão. I don't know if it is still
a nick or if they oficialized the name in their birth registers.
Another famous case of mishearing are the "terras roxas" (violet lands)
in the state of São Paulo. They are actually red-coloured. And stupendous
for planting coffee. In the beginning of the century, there was a massive
immigration of Italians to work in these coffee farms. They called the
land "rossa", the Italian for red, and again by mishearing, red was trans-
formed into violet.
As I told in the a.u.g., another one is blitz (lightning in German) which
means either a rapid police action in a suspect place or the supposed
hideout of a gang, or when the road patrol controls speed limits in a road,
which entered brazilian Portuguese through the WWII's Blitzkrieg. Blitz has
not this meaning in German.
Being Portuguese a very flexible language, we have lots of words derived
from proper names, trademarks and other languages, but I can't remember
many used out of context or not related to the originator.
JL
Pierre Jelenc
>
> Even the dinosaur Jacques Barzun is not old enough to have been publicly
> complaining in the 1920s.
René Lacoste was known as a tennisman in the late 20's or early 30's. Well
before my time, but there are books and magazines.
Ah, Robert gives a 1934 date for its apparition in print. Not exactly
recent.
Pierre Jelenc
>
>
> I don't know, good question. The only French equivalent I can think of is
> "par example". Would they use "p.e." for short?
"par ex."; "p.-ê." is "peut-être".
"c.-à-d." is "c'est-à-dire", i.e. "i.e."
Mike Wright
Tomato or no tomato, it's still a long way from the Chinese original. (And I've
never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
From the _Chinese-English Dictionary of the Vernacular or Spoken Language of
Amoy_, published in 1873:
<ke5> (/ke24+p/) "salted or pickled fish or shellfish (the name of the fish or
shellfish is prefixed)." (Zhangzhou dialect, Xiamen is <koe5>)
<chiap4> (/tsiap24-r/) "juice, sap, gravy, etc."
<ke5-chiap4> (/ke24:33+p tsiap24-r/) "brine of pickled fish or shellfish."
I wonder if the Indonesian/Malaysian/Singaporean versions all use vinegar.
Mike Wright
>
> Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
>
> >How about "ketchup" going from "brine of pickled fish or shell-fish" in C=
> >hina
> >125 years ago to a kind of tomato sauce in modern English?
>
> I inferred that the original meaning was "spicy sauce" in whatever
> Asian language it originally comes from. Is that not correct?
No, more like "fish sauce". See my reply to Ben for the details.
Karl Reinhardt
<JoaoLuiz...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE> wrote:
>I don't know if this fits, but during WWII there were US-American marines
>in bases of the northern coast of Brazil. They went there to parties,
>which were open to the general public, and which they called "for all".
>People heard that, and the word ended up entering the Portuguese language
>as "forró", which now designates these kinds of parties, where a typical
>northeastern music is played, and this specific kind of music is now
>called "música de forró", and the specific dance associated to it "(dança
>de) forró".
This is one of those myths like "gringo" supposedly coming from an
American song that had "Greek grow the rushes, ho!"; the word existed
in Spanish (in many countries) a century before.
My *1939* Peueno dicionário brasileiro da língua portuguesa has:
"Forró, s.m. (Bras.) (V. Forrobodó)" which in turn defines the word
as "Festança, baile da ralé, en que há grande comezaina; no Pará
também dizem simplesmente _forró_." Para is in the North of Brazil,
and my dictionary was published before there were American marines
there for WWII. It meant a party with lots of food.
Karl
Paul Davidson
--
Paul Davidson
Pierre Jelenc <rc...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:7oi9jt$n6r$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> Paul Davidson <tin...@direct.ca> writes:
> >
> >
> > I don't know, good question. The only French equivalent I can think of
is
> > "par example". Would they use "p.e." for short?
>
> "par ex."; "p.-ê." is "peut-être".
>
> "c.-à-d." is "c'est-à-dire", i.e. "i.e."
>
> Pierre
Thanks, I shall add that to my French vocabulary sheets. :)
Brian M. Scott
> > Just out of curiosity, is it customary to use the Latin abbreviations in
> > French? I thought that French, like German, generally abbreviated the
> > home-grown expressions.
> I don't know, good question. The only French equivalent I can think of is
> "par example". Would they use "p.e." for short?
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that I've seen <c.à.d.> rather than
<i.e.>.
Brian M. Scott
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Helmut Richter schrieb:
> >
> > In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
> > phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
> > language. Examples are:
> ...
> > Now my question: is it a wide-spread phenomenon in other languages as
> > well, that a foreign language is so trendy that new terms are formed
> > according to the phonology of the foreign language even though the
> > word in question does not exist there?
>
> in bases of the northern coast of Brazil. They went there to parties,
> which were open to the general public, and which they called "for all".
And what was that supposed to mean?
> People heard that, and the word ended up entering the Portuguese language
> as "forró", which now designates these kinds of parties, where a typical
> northeastern music is played, and this specific kind of music is now
> called "música de forró", and the specific dance associated to it "(dança
> de) forró".
> Another famous case comes from the same period. In Brazil people are
> generally referred to/called by their forenames. The governor of the
> state of Maranhão in the same period was called Ney (I don't know the
> family name, but it is easy to discover). Anyway, in their contacts with
> him, US-American officers would call him respectfully "Sir" Ney.
That is a British, most definitely *not*, an American naming pattern.
> Other
> people (Brazilians) heard that and began called him like that. (I don't
> know if in the beginning ironically or because it was chique to say it
> in English.) Anyway, it spread so much that the man ended up being known
> as "Sarney", that he ended up adopting as nickname in elections. Since
> there is a lot in a family name (see the Kennedys), his son also adopted
> Sarney as "political surname", and under the name José Sarney has built
> all his political life, culminating in being the brazilian president from
> 1985-1990(?) (he is now a senator). The name was adopted by the whole clan.
> His son, Sarney Jr., is a Congress representative, his daughter, Roseane
> Sarney, presently the governor of Maranhão. I don't know if it is still
> a nick or if they oficialized the name in their birth registers.
(And "nick" is British, not American.)
Peterdy
>Ben wrote:
>>
>> >How about "ketchup" going from "brine of pickled fish or shell-fish" in
>> China
>> >125 years ago to a kind of tomato sauce in modern English?
>>
>> Actually "ketchup" means a sauce made with vinegar. It's just that tomato
>> ketchup happens to be the most common. Same with "relish." There are many
>> different kinds of relishes out there, we just happen to be most familiar
>> with pickle relish.
>
>Tomato or no tomato, it's still a long way from the Chinese original. (And
>I've
>never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
>
>From the _Chinese-English Dictionary of the Vernacular or Spoken Language of
>Amoy_, published in 1873:
>
> <ke5> (/ke24+p/) "salted or pickled fish or shellfish (the name of the fish
>or
>shellfish is prefixed)." (Zhangzhou dialect, Xiamen is <koe5>)
>
> <chiap4> (/tsiap24-r/) "juice, sap, gravy, etc."
>
> <ke5-chiap4> (/ke24:33+p tsiap24-r/) "brine of pickled fish or shellfish."
>
>I wonder if the Indonesian/Malaysian/Singaporean versions all use vinegar.
>
I think in Indonesia now, "kecap" refers only to soy sauce, esp. "kecap manis"
or sweet soy sauce.
Peter
Nikos Sarantakos
wrote:
>This is one of those myths like "gringo" supposedly coming from an
>American song that had "Greek grow the rushes, ho!"; the word existed
>in Spanish (in many countries) a century before.
Rather, "Green grow etc.". And, acc. to Corominas, the word gringo
is attested in Spain from 16th-17th century.
But Greek, although a typo, is indeed related to the word, since
gringo seems to come from 'griego'.
ns
Magnus Bengtsson
Pierre Jelenc <rc...@panix.com> wrote:
> Trygve S. Håland <try...@useless-software.com> writes:
> > D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff <de...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> > news:FG1pB...@midway.uchicago.edu...
> >
> > > Both Duden and Wahrig call <Friseur> a German coinage.
> >
> > Bokmålsordlisten (a Norwegian online dictionary) claims that the
Norwegian
> > equivalent "frisør" is from French, and that it literally means "someone
who
> > makes curls". The same dictionary claims that the French verb "friser"
means
> > "to make curls". I tend to believe everything I read (especially on the
> > internet), so I guess this must be correct.
>
The Swedish Academy's dictionary SAOB (http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob)
has a similar etymology for Swedish "frisör":
[jfr dan. o. t. friseur; av fr. friseur, vbalsbst. till friser (se FRISERA)]
(that is: cf Danish and German "friseur"; from French "friseur", verbal noun
to "friser" (see FRISERA))
For the verb "frisera" it reports:
[liksom d. frisere, t. frisieren, av fr. friser, av ovisst urspr.]
(like Danish "frisere", German "frisieren", from French "friser",
of uncertain origin)
The earliest meaning seems to have been "to curl".
> "Friseur" does not exist in common modern French, but it could, in that
> the suffix "-eur" is somewhat productive and readily analysable.
>
> I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere that the term did exist
> with the meaning of "someone who cleans and shapes wigs" but I can't find
> it in any dictionary at hand.
>
> Pierre
--
Magnus Bengtsson
João Luiz
>
> On Sat, 07 Aug 1999 22:54:16 +0200, "João Luiz"
> <JoaoLuiz...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE> wrote:
>
> >in bases of the northern coast of Brazil. They went there to parties,
> >which were open to the general public, and which they called "for all".
> >as "forró", which now designates these kinds of parties, where a typical
> >northeastern music is played, and this specific kind of music is now
> >called "música de forró", and the specific dance associated to it "(dança
> >de) forró".
> American song that had "Greek grow the rushes, ho!"; the word existed
> in Spanish (in many countries) a century before.
> "Forró, s.m. (Bras.) (V. Forrobodó)" which in turn defines the word
> as "Festança, baile da ralé, en que há grande comezaina; no Pará
> também dizem simplesmente _forró_." Para is in the North of Brazil,
> and my dictionary was published before there were American marines
> there for WWII. It meant a party with lots of food.
> Karl
You are right about the dates. It comes from British engineers in the
last century, not US-American marines by WWII times, but the etymology
was coreect. I asked a friend:
"João, a etimologia está certa, a data é que está errada. O Forró veio das
festas dos engenheiros ingleses quando construíam estradas de ferro no século
passado, ainda nos tempos do império. Havia as festas SÓ para os oficiais, e
as festas para todos os cabras que trabalhavam nas linhas férreas. Portanto,
o teu amigo tem que achar um dicionário do tempo do Império. Se eu não me
engano era "for all bodies", daí o forrobodo..."
JL
João Luiz
> > a nick or if they oficialized the name in their birth registers.
>
> (And "nick" is British, not American.)
That was from me, anyway. I can not speak English so finely as to always
be able to differ between British and American usages. Sorry.
JL
Karl Reinhardt
<JoaoLuiz...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE> wrote:
>Karl Reinhardt schrieb:
>>
>> My *1939* Peueno dicionário brasileiro da língua portuguesa has:
>> "Forró, s.m. (Bras.) (V. Forrobodó)" which in turn defines the word
>> as "Festança, baile da ralé, en que há grande comezaina; no Pará
>> também dizem simplesmente _forró_."
[snip]
>
>You are right about the dates. It comes from British engineers in the
>last century, not US-American marines by WWII times, but the etymology
>was coreect. I asked a friend:
>
>"João, a etimologia está certa, a data é que está errada. O Forró veio das
>festas dos engenheiros ingleses...
[snip]
>
>JL
A friend? Is he or she an etymologist? Or just repeating the same
story? Antenor Nascentes believed the version I gave, with a little
doubt, in his Dicionário Etimológico Resumido.
Karl
Colin Fine
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>
>(And "nick" is British, not American.)
I have never heard 'nickname' shortened to 'nick', and did not
understand it without rereading the text. (and I'm leftpondian).
(or are you saying that 'nickname' is not American? Surely not!)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Colin Fine 66 High Ash, Shipley, W Yorks. BD18 1NE, UK |
| Tel: 01274 592696/0976 635354 e-mail: co...@kindness.demon.co.uk |
| "Don't just do something! Stand there!" |
| - from 'Behold the Spirit' (workshop) |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Colin Fine
deja.com> writes
>In article <7oe4vu$26r$1...@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>,
> Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de wrote:
>
>> In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
>> phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
>> language. Examples are:
>
>
I have often wondered whether the Japanese who coined 'walkman' knew
that this was a neologism or not.
japanese 'salaryman'.
mb
Nikos Sarantakos wrote in message <37ac7dc2...@news.forthnet.gr>...
>Well, I presume that words of alleged Greek origin are not what you
>are interested in, since in many languages there are loads of such
>words that did not exist in Greek.
>
>These Greek words are not restricted to scientific neologisms. My
>preferred example comes from Spanish. I was reading a "Guide to
>good Spanish" (an El Pais publication), where it was recommended
>to avoid the overuse of "sexy" in Spanish and to prefer, instead,
>"erotico" or "sicaliptico". Both those words are from Greek, but the
>latter does not seem to have ever existed in Greek.
Niko,
One thing that would be interesting is to list all Greek words formed from
Turkish (or even Turkish-sounding) roots, and vice versa, and given a form
and a meaning that have little or nothing to do with the original language.
I think we have at least a couple dozen in Greek and many more in Turkish.
Ex. glentzes, pousths.. ombal... Can't do it out of memory.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <37ACDA...@worldnet.att.net>, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>
> >
> >(And "nick" is British, not American.)
>
> I have never heard 'nickname' shortened to 'nick', and did not
> understand it without rereading the text. (and I'm leftpondian).
>
> (or are you saying that 'nickname' is not American? Surely not!)
No, the abbreviation of nickname isn't American; but I've heard it, and
where could it have been but in English TV?
Dave Timpe
Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> wrote in message
news:37ACB81C...@mbay.net...
| Tomato or no tomato, it's still a long way from the Chinese original. (And
I've
| never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
I saw some kind of ketchup in the supermarket recently that seemed to be
tomato-free, but I was looking for something else and didn't investigate it.
It might have been from Maylaysia, Singapore or Indonesia. American tastes
are changing. I'll have to look next time I'm there.
--
Dave Timpe
davetimpe at cybrzn dot com
Dave Timpe
Karl Reinhardt <re...@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:37acb821...@news.hal-pc.org...
| On Sat, 07 Aug 1999 22:54:16 +0200, "João Luiz"
| <JoaoLuiz...@Maschinenbau.TU-Ilmenau.DE> wrote:
|
| >I don't know if this fits, but during WWII there were US-American marines
| >in bases of the northern coast of Brazil. They went there to parties,
| >which were open to the general public, and which they called "for all".
| >People heard that, and the word ended up entering the Portuguese language
| >as "forró", which now designates these kinds of parties, where a typical
| >northeastern music is played, and this specific kind of music is now
| >called "música de forró", and the specific dance associated to it "(dança
| >de) forró".
| This is one of those myths like "gringo" supposedly coming from an
| American song that had "Greek grow the rushes, ho!"; the word existed
| in Spanish (in many countries) a century before.
| "Forró, s.m. (Bras.) (V. Forrobodó)" which in turn defines the word
| as "Festança, baile da ralé, en que há grande comezaina; no Pará
| and my dictionary was published before there were American marines
| there for WWII. It meant a party with lots of food.
And maybe this is another myth, but at a radio station where I worked there
was a sampler CD of forró music which contained liner notes to the effect
that the parties "for all" were thrown by American companies operating in
the area, possibly early enough to account for your 1939 listing, although I
don't recall the date. I guess if the etymology is correct, it's close
enough to count.
Dave Timpe
Jukka Korpela <Jukka....@hut.fi> wrote in message
news:37abdbef...@news.cs.hut.fi...
|And it usually occurs so that when a language
| has several loanwords carrying the same foreign suffix in them, new
| words might be formed according to the pattern. This might first be
| just playing with words, by children and youngsters and in slang and
| with a humorous purpose, then be promoted to a more or less approved
| part of the language.
|
| So, after starting to play with foreign suffixes, one might casually
| combine them with words of foreign origin, perhaps - if one knows the
| foreign language well enough - with words that don't appear as
| loanwords (yet) in one's own language. And it may then happen that the
| resulting formation appears in the foreign language too, with a
| different meaning.
And eventually, the foreign prefixes or suffixes can be used with roots that
don't come from that language, as in "doable", creating a hybrid, and thus
exiting the scope of this thread.
Mike Wright
>
> In <37ACB81C...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
> >Ben wrote:
> >>
> >> >How about "ketchup" going from "brine of pickled fish or shell-fish" in
> >> China
> >> >125 years ago to a kind of tomato sauce in modern English?
> >>
> >> Actually "ketchup" means a sauce made with vinegar. It's just that tomato
> >> ketchup happens to be the most common. Same with "relish." There are many
> >> different kinds of relishes out there, we just happen to be most familiar
> >> with pickle relish.
> >
> >never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
> >
> >Amoy_, published in 1873:
> >
> > <ke5> (/ke24+p/) "salted or pickled fish or shellfish (the name of the fish or
> >shellfish is prefixed)." (Zhangzhou dialect, Xiamen is <koe5>)
> >
> > <chiap4> (/tsiap24-r/) "juice, sap, gravy, etc."
> >
> > <ke5-chiap4> (/ke24:33+p tsiap24-r/) "brine of pickled fish or shellfish."
> >
> >I wonder if the Indonesian/Malaysian/Singaporean versions all use vinegar.
>
But someone else answered, and my dictionaries agree, that it can sometimes mean
"soy sauce". Do they put vinegar in their soy sauce?
Chris Robato Yao
>Ben wrote:
>>
>> >How about "ketchup" going from "brine of pickled fish or shell-fish" in
>> China
>> >125 years ago to a kind of tomato sauce in modern English?
>>
>> Actually "ketchup" means a sauce made with vinegar. It's just that tomato
>> ketchup happens to be the most common. Same with "relish." There are many
>> different kinds of relishes out there, we just happen to be most familiar
>> with pickle relish.
>
>Tomato or no tomato, it's still a long way from the Chinese original. (And I've
>never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
>
>From the _Chinese-English Dictionary of the Vernacular or Spoken Language of
>Amoy_, published in 1873:
>
> <ke5> (/ke24+p/) "salted or pickled fish or shellfish (the name of the fish or
>shellfish is prefixed)." (Zhangzhou dialect, Xiamen is <koe5>)
>
> <chiap4> (/tsiap24-r/) "juice, sap, gravy, etc."
>
> <ke5-chiap4> (/ke24:33+p tsiap24-r/) "brine of pickled fish or shellfish."
>
>I wonder if the Indonesian/Malaysian/Singaporean versions all use vinegar.
They do.
Rgds,
Chris
(And the NUMBER ONE top oxy-MORON
1. Microsoft Works
---From the Top 50 Oxymorons (thanks to Richard Kennedy)
Chris Robato Yao
>Chris Robato Yao wrote:
>>
>> In <37ACB81C...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
>> >Ben wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >How about "ketchup" going from "brine of pickled fish or shell-fish" in
>> >> China
>> >> >125 years ago to a kind of tomato sauce in modern English?
>> >>
>> >> Actually "ketchup" means a sauce made with vinegar. It's just that tomato
>> >> ketchup happens to be the most common. Same with "relish." There are many
>> >> different kinds of relishes out there, we just happen to be most familiar
>> >> with pickle relish.
>> >
>> >Tomato or no tomato, it's still a long way from the Chinese original. (And I've
>> >never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
>> >
>> >From the _Chinese-English Dictionary of the Vernacular or Spoken Language of
>> >Amoy_, published in 1873:
>> >
>> > <ke5> (/ke24+p/) "salted or pickled fish or shellfish (the name of the fish or
>> >shellfish is prefixed)." (Zhangzhou dialect, Xiamen is <koe5>)
>> >
>> > <chiap4> (/tsiap24-r/) "juice, sap, gravy, etc."
>> >
>> > <ke5-chiap4> (/ke24:33+p tsiap24-r/) "brine of pickled fish or shellfish."
>> >
>> >I wonder if the Indonesian/Malaysian/Singaporean versions all use vinegar.
>>
>> They do.
>
>"soy sauce". Do they put vinegar in their soy sauce?
Yes to that too.
Some other materials are also occasionally, such as spices and garlic to
give it a hotter flavor, as well as a reddish chili based paste (whose
appearance is closest to catsup itself). In dinner, these four
seasonings (soy, vinegar, garlic-spices, chili paste) are mixed.
In addition to that, there is something called "black" vinegar, which is
a dark colored vinegar that is a bit salty and briny in taste. This is
easily confused with soy sauce and sometimes I think it's soy sauce
mixed with vinegar.
In Tagalog, there is a variation, based on fermenting fish with vinegar.
It's quite sour, salty and briny and it's called patis.
Rgds,
Chris
>
>--
>Mike Wright
>http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
>_____________________________________________________
>"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
>-- Charles de Gaulle
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Tom Wier <arta...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>
>> It feels like marketing speak with a vague connection to German "Hand"
>> (to emphasize the fact that the mobile is hand-held, as opposed to those
>> brick-like boxes they had in the 80s which you carried like a suit case),
>> a cute sounding y ending, and trendy English pronunciation added.
>> An invention by marketing droids (if you were familiar with German
>> marketing speak you'd know they like to obscure^H^H^H^H^H embellish
>> their phrases with lots of pseudo-English vocabulary), maybe once used
>> in an advertisement and continued to thrive from there.
>
>No kidding. I recently picked up a couple copies of _Der Spiegel_
>and was quite shocked to see just about every advertisement with
>some English in it, some entirely in English. I asked a couple Germans
>that I knew, who said it was normal, and complained that soon, they
>thought, "there'd be no German left".
I always have to roll my eyes at such simple-minded remarks. Often, it
seems people know nothing of the history of their own language. Had they
been alive around the turn of the 18th, they would have prognosticated the
dissolution of German into French.
Of course, one could argue that modern mass media have made for quite a
different situation than existed in Bony's time, but when more than 1 in
100 Germans can give me the correct meaning of the English terms in all of
an average _Spiegel_'s ads, then I'll admit that might be of some rele-
vance here.
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Ben
It's just one of those things people say, that the language is falling apart
and being horribly mangled (certain persons in this groups made remarks
about schoolyard "buchering" of the language). Apparently language has been
decaying from its beginnings. It's like people complaining the youth are
lazy and corrupt. With the possible exception of commencement speeches,
has anyone over the age of thirty ever said, "Wow, this younger generation
is much more talented and virtuous than we are. they're going to take this
country in a really great direction." ?
Chris Robato Yao
>
>Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> wrote in message
>news:37ACB81C...@mbay.net...
>
>
>I've
>| never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
>
>tomato-free, but I was looking for something else and didn't investigate it.
>It might have been from Maylaysia, Singapore or Indonesia. American tastes
>are changing. I'll have to look next time I'm there.
It's possible to see in an Asian market, the Philippine "banana"
ketchup. Yes, banana. It may look red and pasty like any tomato based
ketchup, but the prime ingredient is banana. Tastes good too, as it has
a tangy sweet taste to it.
Rgds,
Chris
>
>--
>Dave Timpe
>
>davetimpe at cybrzn dot com
>
Peterdy
>In <37AE3ADD...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
>>Chris Robato Yao wrote:
>>>
>>> In <37ACB81C...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
>>> >Ben wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >How about "ketchup" going from "brine of pickled fish or shell-fish"
>in
>>> >> China
>>> >> >125 years ago to a kind of tomato sauce in modern English?
>>> >>
>>> >> Actually "ketchup" means a sauce made with vinegar. It's just that
>tomato
>>> >> ketchup happens to be the most common. Same with "relish." There are
>many
>>> >> different kinds of relishes out there, we just happen to be most
>familiar
>>> >> with pickle relish.
>>> >
>>> >Tomato or no tomato, it's still a long way from the Chinese original.
>(And I've
>>> >never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
>>> >
>>> >From the _Chinese-English Dictionary of the Vernacular or Spoken Language
>of
>>> >Amoy_, published in 1873:
>>> >
>>> > <ke5> (/ke24+p/) "salted or pickled fish or shellfish (the name of the
>fish or
>>> >shellfish is prefixed)." (Zhangzhou dialect, Xiamen is <koe5>)
>>> >
>>> > <chiap4> (/tsiap24-r/) "juice, sap, gravy, etc."
>>> >
>>> > <ke5-chiap4> (/ke24:33+p tsiap24-r/) "brine of pickled fish or
>shellfish."
>>> >
>>> >I wonder if the Indonesian/Malaysian/Singaporean versions all use
>vinegar.
>>>
>>> They do.
>>
>>But someone else answered, and my dictionaries agree, that it can sometimes
>mean
>>"soy sauce". Do they put vinegar in their soy sauce?
>
>
>Yes to that too.
>
>Some other materials are also occasionally, such as spices and garlic to
>give it a hotter flavor, as well as a reddish chili based paste (whose
>appearance is closest to catsup itself). In dinner, these four
>seasonings (soy, vinegar, garlic-spices, chili paste) are mixed.
>
OK, hold on. I don't know Indonesian or Malaysian, but I do cook Indonesian
<g>. I have two different brands of sweet soy sauce from Indonesia, and they
are both called "kecap manis," which I'm quite sure means "sweet soy sauce."
No vinegar. In the various cookbooks I have, kecap or ketjap refers only to
soy sauce. What you are talking about above, I believe, is called "sambal,"
and there are many types of sambal. Seems to me that "sambal" just means
"sauce." (I don't have any Indonesian or Malaysian dictionaries either--could
someone give the definitions of kecap and sambal?)
The webpage below gives a summary of a PhD dissertation from the Netherlands
that examines soy sauce production in Indonesia, and in it, soy sauce is
referred to as "kecap."
http://www.bio.vu.nl/vakgroepen/microb/kecap.html
Again, from a Dutch site, there is the following on kecap:
Ketjap (sojabonensaus)
De basis van ketjap vormen de sojabonen. De hieraan toegevoegde kruiden
bepalen de smaak van de afzonderlijke soorten.
Ketjap kan heel erg zoet (seding), minder zoet (manis) en zout (asin)
zijn. De ketjap manis wordt het meest gebruikt. Ketjap benteng manis
is Indonesisch, zoet. Ketjap benteng asin is Indonesisch, zout.
So, I don't see why you call the various mixtures/sauces above "kecap."
>In addition to that, there is something called "black" vinegar, which is
>a dark colored vinegar that is a bit salty and briny in taste. This is
>easily confused with soy sauce and sometimes I think it's soy sauce
>mixed with vinegar.
>
>In Tagalog, there is a variation, based on fermenting fish with vinegar.
>It's quite sour, salty and briny and it's called patis.
>
Yes. Asia has many fermented products. But they are not all called
ketchup/catsup/kecap/ketjap. China used to even have a fermented meat sauce
called "hai." Also, "patis" is not restricted to Tagalog-speakers in the
Philippines (I'm sure you know that though.) Patis is fish sauce, and is the
same as that found throughout SE Asia. It's not made with vinegar, it's just
fish fermented with salt.
Peter
Yusuf B Gursey
: Niko,
: One thing that would be interesting is to list all Greek words formed from
: Turkish (or even Turkish-sounding) roots, and vice versa, and given a form
: and a meaning that have little or nothing to do with the original language.
: I think we have at least a couple dozen in Greek and many more in Turkish.
: Ex. glentzes, pousths.. ombal... Can't do it out of memory.
meanings?
Yusuf B Gursey
word is not used in french (though the original is latin). the turkish
pronounciation used is modeled on a supposed french ronounciation.
Mike Wright
>
> Chris Robato Yao wrote:
>
> >In <37AE3ADD...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
> >>Chris Robato Yao wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In <37ACB81C...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
> >vinegar.
> >>>
> >>> They do.
> >>
> >>But someone else answered, and my dictionaries agree, that it can sometimes
> >mean
> >>"soy sauce". Do they put vinegar in their soy sauce?
> >
> >Yes to that too.
> >
> >Some other materials are also occasionally, such as spices and garlic to
> >give it a hotter flavor, as well as a reddish chili based paste (whose
> >appearance is closest to catsup itself). In dinner, these four
> >seasonings (soy, vinegar, garlic-spices, chili paste) are mixed.
>
> OK, hold on. I don't know Indonesian or Malaysian, but I do cook Indonesian
> <g>. I have two different brands of sweet soy sauce from Indonesia, and they
> are both called "kecap manis," which I'm quite sure means "sweet soy sauce."
> No vinegar. In the various cookbooks I have, kecap or ketjap refers only to
> soy sauce. What you are talking about above, I believe, is called "sambal,"
> and there are many types of sambal. Seems to me that "sambal" just means
> "sauce." (I don't have any Indonesian or Malaysian dictionaries either--could
> someone give the definitions of kecap and sambal?)
For "sambal", my Indonesian dictionary gives: "pungent condiments", and my Malay
dictionary gives: "condiments eaten with curry; 'menyambal' to prepare
condiments". (And "manis" does mean "sweet".) The Ind. words for "sauce" are
given as "saos" and "kuah", but "kuah" is defined as "gravy; soup". Malay for
"sauce" is given as "kicap" and "kuah". Looking them up in reverse gives "soya
bean sauce" for "kicap" (and for "kecap") and "sauce; gravy" for "kuah".
(How can you cook Indonesian without a dictionary?)
> The webpage below gives a summary of a PhD dissertation from the Netherlands
> that examines soy sauce production in Indonesia, and in it, soy sauce is
> referred to as "kecap."
> http://www.bio.vu.nl/vakgroepen/microb/kecap.html
>
> Again, from a Dutch site, there is the following on kecap:
>
> Ketjap (sojabonensaus)
> De basis van ketjap vormen de sojabonen. De hieraan toegevoegde kruiden
> bepalen de smaak van de afzonderlijke soorten.
> Ketjap kan heel erg zoet (seding), minder zoet (manis) en zout (asin)
> zijn. De ketjap manis wordt het meest gebruikt. Ketjap benteng manis
> is Indonesisch, zoet. Ketjap benteng asin is Indonesisch, zout.
>
> So, I don't see why you call the various mixtures/sauces above "kecap."
>
> >In addition to that, there is something called "black" vinegar, which is
> >a dark colored vinegar that is a bit salty and briny in taste. This is
> >easily confused with soy sauce and sometimes I think it's soy sauce
> >mixed with vinegar.
> >
> >In Tagalog, there is a variation, based on fermenting fish with vinegar.
> >It's quite sour, salty and briny and it's called patis.
>
> Yes. Asia has many fermented products. But they are not all called
> ketchup/catsup/kecap/ketjap. China used to even have a fermented meat sauce
> called "hai."
[...]
That's interesting. Do you know which language/dialect that's supposed to be?
The literary reading of the <ke> of <ke-chiap> in Hokkien happens to be <hai>.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/
Vladimir Menkov
>Ben wrote:
>
>(And I've
>never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
Bulgarians make (or used to make, at any rate) sweet-peper based ketchup,
which I find much superior to most tomato ketchups.
Don't know where it is sold in the US -- alas, I've never seen a
Bulgarian grocery store. It tastes somewhat similar to ajvar (which is
mainly made in Croatia and neighboring countries), but is sold in
bottles, just like tomato ketchup.
Of course, OED has lots of examples for quite a few varieties of
ketchup...
--vld.
Bill Vaughan
wrote:
>(How can you cook Indonesian without a dictionary?)
I for one usually leave the dictionary out -- it adds little to the
flavor. :)
Mike Wright
>
> In article <37ACB81C...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> wrote:
> >Ben wrote:
> >
> >(And I've
> >never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
>
> Bulgarians make (or used to make, at any rate) sweet-peper based ketchup,
> which I find much superior to most tomato ketchups.
>
> Don't know where it is sold in the US -- alas, I've never seen a
> Bulgarian grocery store. It tastes somewhat similar to ajvar (which is
> mainly made in Croatia and neighboring countries), but is sold in
> bottles, just like tomato ketchup.
I make a thick sweet-pepper-and-vinegar sauce, myself, but I've wouldn't call it
"ketchup". Do the Bulgarians actually use the word "ketchup"?
> Of course, OED has lots of examples for quite a few varieties of
> ketchup...
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
Mike Wright
>
[...]
> OK, hold on. I don't know Indonesian or Malaysian, but I do cook Indonesian
> <g>. I have two different brands of sweet soy sauce from Indonesia, and they
> are both called "kecap manis," which I'm quite sure means "sweet soy sauce."
> No vinegar. In the various cookbooks I have, kecap or ketjap refers only to
> soy sauce. What you are talking about above, I believe, is called "sambal,"
> and there are many types of sambal. Seems to me that "sambal" just means
> "sauce." (I don't have any Indonesian or Malaysian dictionaries either--could
> someone give the definitions of kecap and sambal?)
I just realized that I have a jar of hot pepper sauce called "Sambal Oelek" in
my refrigerator. It's made by Huy Fong Foods, Inc., and they have a couple of
"sambal" sauces. You can see them at
http://www.huyfong.com/frames/fr_product.htm. It has a wonderful flavor, but
it's hotter'n hell. (Writing this made me hungry, so I ran into the kitchen and
grabbed a bowl of red chicken curry. It's so-o-o good!)
Muke
Actually I (in the USA) hear 'nick' as rather common, although
especially in a computing context, as synonymous with 'username'.
*Muke!
--
Muke, turtle.
"Why take something so common from something so rare" -FW
My webpage: http://i.am/muke
ICQ: 1936556
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Peterdy
I wrote:
>> OK, hold on. I don't know Indonesian or Malaysian, but I do cook
>Indonesian
>> <g>. I have two different brands of sweet soy sauce from Indonesia, and
>they
>> are both called "kecap manis," which I'm quite sure means "sweet soy
>sauce."
>> No vinegar. In the various cookbooks I have, kecap or ketjap refers only
>to
>> soy sauce. What you are talking about above, I believe, is called
>"sambal,"
>> and there are many types of sambal. Seems to me that "sambal" just means
>> "sauce." (I don't have any Indonesian or Malaysian dictionaries
>either--could
>> someone give the definitions of kecap and sambal?)
>
>For "sambal", my Indonesian dictionary gives: "pungent condiments", and my
>Malay
>dictionary gives: "condiments eaten with curry; 'menyambal' to prepare
>condiments". (And "manis" does mean "sweet".) The Ind. words for "sauce" are
>given as "saos" and "kuah", but "kuah" is defined as "gravy; soup". Malay for
>"sauce" is given as "kicap" and "kuah". Looking them up in reverse gives
>"soya
>bean sauce" for "kicap" (and for "kecap") and "sauce; gravy" for "kuah".
>
>(How can you cook Indonesian without a dictionary?)
>
Thanks for the info. My cookbooks are in English and the ingredients are
described well. But, since that was the only thing I was going by, I wasn't
sure about possible other meanings for these words. It's never caused me
problems in the kitchen though!
[...]
>>
>> Yes. Asia has many fermented products. But they are not all called
>> ketchup/catsup/kecap/ketjap. China used to even have a fermented meat
>sauce
>> called "hai."
>[...]
>
>That's interesting. Do you know which language/dialect that's supposed to be?
>The literary reading of the <ke> of <ke-chiap> in Hokkien happens to be
><hai>.
>
I think just....standard? I read about it in _Foods of China: Anthropological
and Historical Perspectives_ (KC. Chang, Editor). Seems like this sauce was
popular in ancient times and up to the Han dynasties. It's not mentioned in
the book after that.
"Finally, meat was often pickled or made into a sauce. It appears that for
this one could use either raw meat or cooked meat, but Chen Hsu"an (d.200AD),
the authoritative commentator of "Li chi" gave only one recipe: 'To prepare
"hai" (boneless meat sauce) and "ni" (meat sauce with bones), it is necessary
first to dry the meat and then cut it up, blend it with moldy millet, salt, and
good wine, and place it in a jar. The sauce is ready in a hundred days.' ("Li
chi, 1:1)"
Have yet to taste it--mine's only on day 70...
They have the character for "hai" in the appendix, and I'll try to describe it
for you. On the left is the <you3> radical [looks like "wine"]. On the right,
on top, are five strokes that is the same as <you4> ["the right side"]. On the
right, on the bottom, is the <min3> radical ["dish"].
Not sure if I got that right, or if it helps. Is it the same as the <ke> of
<ke-chiap>?
Peter
Mike Wright
>
> Mike Wright wrote:
>
> I wrote:
[...]
> >> Yes. Asia has many fermented products. But they are not all called
> >> ketchup/catsup/kecap/ketjap. China used to even have a fermented meat
> >sauce
> >> called "hai."
> >[...]
> >
> >That's interesting. Do you know which language/dialect that's supposed to be?
> >The literary reading of the <ke> of <ke-chiap> in Hokkien happens to be
> ><hai>.
> >
> I think just....standard? I read about it in _Foods of China: Anthropological
> and Historical Perspectives_ (KC. Chang, Editor). Seems like this sauce was
> popular in ancient times and up to the Han dynasties. It's not mentioned in
> the book after that.
>
> "Finally, meat was often pickled or made into a sauce. It appears that for
> this one could use either raw meat or cooked meat, but Chen Hsu"an (d.200AD),
> the authoritative commentator of "Li chi" gave only one recipe: 'To prepare
> "hai" (boneless meat sauce) and "ni" (meat sauce with bones), it is necessary
> first to dry the meat and then cut it up, blend it with moldy millet, salt, and
> good wine, and place it in a jar. The sauce is ready in a hundred days.' ("Li
> chi, 1:1)"
>
> Have yet to taste it--mine's only on day 70...
Let us know if you survive.
> They have the character for "hai" in the appendix, and I'll try to describe it
> for you. On the left is the <you3> radical [looks like "wine"]. On the right,
> on top, are five strokes that is the same as <you4> ["the right side"]. On the
> right, on the bottom, is the <min3> radical ["dish"].
>
> Not sure if I got that right, or if it helps. Is it the same as the <ke> of
> <ke-chiap>?
Thanks. I found <hai3> (but not "ni") in Mathew's, and it is as you described
it. It is defined as "Minced and hashed meat. Pickled meat. To mince." It occurs
in the following compounds:
<hai3xia1> "pickled shrimps"
<hai3fu3> (the "fu" of tofu = "rotten") "pickled condiments"
<zhuo2 wei4 rou4hai3> "a curse--may you be made into mincemeat"
<peng1hai3> "boiled alive--ancient punishment"
You can always count on Mathew's for a laugh.
Far East gives <hai3> as "(1) minced and hashed meat, (2) to mince a criminal as
a punishment in ancient China". I wonder if the criminals were then blended with
moldy millet.
And <hai3> is not the same as the the <ke> of <ke-chiap>, which is the "fish"
radical on the left and stacked "earth" radicals on the right, pronounced <kui1>
in Mandarin.
João Luiz
> A friend? Is he or she an etymologist? Or just repeating the same
> story? Antenor Nascentes believed the version I gave, with a little
> doubt, in his Dicionário Etimológico Resumido.
> Karl
I have unfortunately no etymolgical dictionary here in Germany to check.
I asked for a quoting, ISBN included, but have not received any answers
up to now. As soon as I have one, I mail you.
JL
Peterdy
I figure, since I live alone, no one will be bothered by a pot of rotting meat
in the corner. I do warn my guests, but for some reason, they've been staying
away for about last two months....
>> They have the character for "hai" in the appendix, and I'll try to describe
>it
>> for you. On the left is the <you3> radical [looks like "wine"]. On the
>right,
>> on top, are five strokes that is the same as <you4> ["the right side"]. On
>the
>> right, on the bottom, is the <min3> radical ["dish"].
>>
>> Not sure if I got that right, or if it helps. Is it the same as the <ke>
>of
>> <ke-chiap>?
>
>Thanks. I found <hai3> (but not "ni") in Mathew's, and it is as you described
>it. It is defined as "Minced and hashed meat. Pickled meat. To mince." It
>occurs
>in the following compounds:
>
><hai3xia1> "pickled shrimps"
><hai3fu3> (the "fu" of tofu = "rotten") "pickled condiments"
><zhuo2 wei4 rou4hai3> "a curse--may you be made into mincemeat"
><peng1hai3> "boiled alive--ancient punishment"
>
>You can always count on Mathew's for a laugh.
>
>Far East gives <hai3> as "(1) minced and hashed meat, (2) to mince a criminal
>as
>a punishment in ancient China". I wonder if the criminals were then blended
>with
>moldy millet.
>
So, is the word <hai3> still in use in Chinese? Like for pickled shrimp or
minced meat?
Peter
Mike Wright
>
> Mike Wright wrote:
> So, is the word <hai3> still in use in Chinese? Like for pickled shrimp or
> minced meat?
>
> Peter
It doesn't look like it. The Far East entry has no compounds, and _A
Chinese-English Dictionary_, published in Beijing in 1979, doesn't have the
character at all. Mathew's is full of classical and outdated expressions (and
pronunciations), but it's nothing you'd use to judge whether a given expression
is current.
Mike Wright
>
> Peterdy wrote:
> >
> > OK, hold on. I don't know Indonesian or Malaysian, but I do cook Indonesian
> > <g>. I have two different brands of sweet soy sauce from Indonesia, and they
> > are both called "kecap manis," which I'm quite sure means "sweet soy sauce."
> > No vinegar. In the various cookbooks I have, kecap or ketjap refers only to
> > soy sauce. What you are talking about above, I believe, is called "sambal,"
> > and there are many types of sambal. Seems to me that "sambal" just means
> > "sauce." (I don't have any Indonesian or Malaysian dictionaries either--could
> > someone give the definitions of kecap and sambal?)
>
> I just realized that I have a jar of hot pepper sauce called "Sambal Oelek" in
> my refrigerator. It's made by Huy Fong Foods, Inc., and they have a couple of
> "sambal" sauces. You can see them at
> http://www.huyfong.com/frames/fr_product.htm. It has a wonderful flavor, but
> it's hotter'n hell. (Writing this made me hungry, so I ran into the kitchen and
> grabbed a bowl of red chicken curry. It's so-o-o good!)
One more realization was the "oelek" must be the old Indonesian spelling of
"ulek", so I checked the dictionary, and there it is: "ulek 'mengulek', v.t. to
grind, as chilies."
Mike Wright
>
[...]
> ----------
>
> Peterdy wrote:
> Pd> I have two different brands of sweet soy sauce from Indonesia,
> Pd> and they are both called "kecap manis," which I'm quite
> Pd> sure means "sweet soy sauce." No vinegar. In the various
> Pd> cookbooks I have, kecap or ketjap refers only to soy sauce.
> Pd> What you are talking about above, I believe, is called
> Pd> "sambal," and there are many types of sambal. Seems to me
> Pd> that "sambal" just means "sauce." (I don't have any Indonesian
> Pd> or Malaysian dictionaries either--could someone give the
> Pd> definitions of kecap and sambal?)
>
> MW> For "sambal", my Indonesian dictionary gives: "pungent
> MW> condiments", and my Malay dictionary gives: "condiments
> MW> eaten with curry; 'menyambal' to prepare condiments". (And
> MW> "manis" does mean "sweet".) The Ind. words for "sauce" are
> MW> given as "saos" and "kuah", but "kuah" is defined as "gravy;
> MW> soup". Malay for "sauce" is given as "kicap" and "kuah".
> MW> Looking them up in reverse gives "soya bean sauce" for
> NW> "kicap" (and for "kecap") and "sauce; gravy" for "kuah".
>
> To confuse matter further, there is a kind of saulty sauce
> called <yu2lu4> (big5:3*ÅS, "fish - dew") commonly used in
> parts of China and SE Asia, especially in Vietnamese or
> <Chao2zhou1> (big5:*é¬w, a region in <Guang3dong1> where the
> native speaks a South Min dialect) cuisine. It is basically
> a salty sauce with (dried) fish or squid flavors; maybe
> sweetened, but never with vinegar. I don't know whether it
> is based on soy sauce or not, but it is used extensively in
> lieu of soy sauce. I don't know what is is called in the
> other languages or how widely it is used by the natives (as
> opposed to the Chinese immigrants); the brand that I like,
> e.g., is made in Thailand. In any case, it seems to match
> the Indonesian soy sauce that Peter mentioned more so than
> ketchup. So, could this be the original Amoy <koe5-chiap4>
> "fish brine"?
My <Han2-Yue4 Ci2dian> (Sino-Vietnamese Dictionary) has "nu+o+'c ma('m" for <yu2lu4>.
I only find <yu2lu4> in _A Chinese-English Dictionary_, published in Beijing. My
_Cihai3_ and _Far East Chinese-English Dictionary_, both published in Taiwan,
don't have an entry for it. Neither does _Mathew's Chinese-English
Dictionary_--nor any of my Holo/Hokkien dictionaries. (I checked under both
colloquial <hi5> and literary <gu5>.)
My wife (from Taiwan) has never heard the term in either Mandarin or Holo. I
asked if she knew what "nu+o+'c ma('m" was (knowing that she has used it in
cooking), and she said, "Yes, rotten fish." However, when I pressed her for what
she would call it in Holo, she couldn't come up with anything.
> Another interesting piece of information is that Worcestershire
> sauce is called /kip=-r5 tsap=-r5/ in Cantonese. The character
> for the second syllable is "juice", the same as in <chiap4>.
> However, the first syllable has no matching character. I
> don't know of any etymological theory for this term, but it
> is dated from at least the early part of the century. Since
> Worcestershire sauce is kind of a "ketchup without tomato",
> it is a possible candidate for the proto-ketchup.
The ingredients of Lea & Perrins ("The Original Worcestershire") Sauce are
"water, vinegar, molasses, high fructose corn syrup, anchovies, hydrolized soy
and corn protein, onions, tamarinds, salt, garlic, cloves, chili peppers,
natural flavorings and shallots." I'm pretty sure one of the unspecified
"natural flavorings" is ginger. All in all, this looks like something that was
originally brought to England from Southeast Asia. Perhaps some clever
inhabitant of Worcester took soy sauce, fish sauce, and spices imported from
Asia, and just mixed them all together with a little vinegar and molasses.
I doubt that Cantonese /kip=-r5/ and Holo /ke=+p/ (or /koe=+p/) come from the
same Chinese source, since Holo entering tones tend to remain entering tones
even after the final consonant disappears (or becomes a glottal stop). I wonder
if it might not be a re-importation of "ketchup" from English.
Does anyone know whether the OED gives any indication of the origin and first
use of "Worcestershire sauce"? Did someone mention the date for the first use of
"ketchup" in English? My source for Holo <ke-chiap> is from 1873.
> One grand unification theory would be that "fish brine" was
> originally like present day "fish dew", but acquire vinegar
> and other ingredients as it moved southward and got influenced
> by the local chutney making methods.
[...]
We've got to stop discussing food. It's 3:30 pm here and I've only had a cup of
espresso and a yogurt so far today. Now I have to go find something to eat.
Ben
>"water, vinegar, molasses, high fructose corn syrup, anchovies, hydrolized
soy
>and corn protein, onions, tamarinds, salt, garlic, cloves, chili peppers,
>natural flavorings and shallots." I'm pretty sure one of the unspecified
>"natural flavorings" is ginger. All in all, this looks like something that
was
>originally brought to England from Southeast Asia. Perhaps some clever
>inhabitant of Worcester took soy sauce, fish sauce, and spices imported
from
>Asia, and just mixed them all together with a little vinegar and molasses.
I can't remember all the details, but the story I heard about the invention
of Worcestershire sauce went something like this.
some famous aristocrat commisioned the creation of a new condiment from a
local chef, but when it was presented, he rejected it. The dejected
inventor left the sauce in his basement for a month and a half, and when he
came back,he found it had fermented, and much improved. Sounds a little
urban legendy, but stranger things have happened.
Dave Timpe
Chris Robato Yao <cro...@kuentos.guam.net> wrote in message
news:7olujt$2dr$1...@brokaw.wa.com...
| In <7olfh8$t6t$3...@news.inc.net>, "Dave Timpe" <dave...@NOSPAMcybrzn.com>
writes:
| >
| >Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> wrote in message
| >news:37ACB81C...@mbay.net...
| >
| >
| >I've
| >| never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
| >
it.
| >It might have been from Maylaysia, Singapore or Indonesia. American
tastes
| >are changing. I'll have to look next time I'm there.
|
|
| It's possible to see in an Asian market, the Philippine "banana"
| ketchup. Yes, banana. It may look red and pasty like any tomato based
| ketchup, but the prime ingredient is banana. Tastes good too, as it has
| a tangy sweet taste to it.
|
| Rgds,
|
| Chris
Hmmm. That's not what it was, and I was in the supermarket and went to
where I thought I'd found it but couldn't locate it. It probably just
wasn't where I thought it was. Otherwise I'm having hallucinations (comes
from reading too many Usenet posts?).
Peterdy
[...]
>Peterdy wrote:
>Pd> I have two different brands of sweet soy sauce from Indonesia,
>Pd> and they are both called "kecap manis," which I'm quite
>Pd> sure means "sweet soy sauce." No vinegar. In the various
>Pd> cookbooks I have, kecap or ketjap refers only to soy sauce.
>Pd> What you are talking about above, I believe, is called
>Pd> "sambal," and there are many types of sambal. Seems to me
>Pd> that "sambal" just means "sauce." (I don't have any Indonesian
>Pd> or Malaysian dictionaries either--could someone give the
>Pd> definitions of kecap and sambal?)
>
>MW> For "sambal", my Indonesian dictionary gives: "pungent
>MW> condiments", and my Malay dictionary gives: "condiments
>MW> eaten with curry; 'menyambal' to prepare condiments". (And
>MW> "manis" does mean "sweet".) The Ind. words for "sauce" are
>MW> given as "saos" and "kuah", but "kuah" is defined as "gravy;
>MW> soup". Malay for "sauce" is given as "kicap" and "kuah".
>MW> Looking them up in reverse gives "soya bean sauce" for
>NW> "kicap" (and for "kecap") and "sauce; gravy" for "kuah".
>
>To confuse matter further, there is a kind of saulty sauce
>called <yu2lu4> (big5:魚露, "fish - dew") commonly used in
>parts of China and SE Asia, especially in Vietnamese or
><Chao2zhou1> (big5:潮洲, a region in <Guang3dong1> where the
>native speaks a South Min dialect) cuisine. It is basically
>a salty sauce with (dried) fish or squid flavors; maybe
>sweetened, but never with vinegar. I don't know whether it
>is based on soy sauce or not, but it is used extensively in
>lieu of soy sauce. I don't know what is is called in the
>other languages or how widely it is used by the natives (as
>opposed to the Chinese immigrants); the brand that I like,
>e.g., is made in Thailand.
[...]
Here you are talking about fish sauce. In other languages it is, as Mike noted
for Vietnamese: <no+u+'c ma)'m>
Thailand: nam pla
Laos: nam pa
Cambodia: tuk trey
Burma: ngan-pya-ye
Philippines: patis
Yes, so it is used extensively in SE Asia. But these countries also have
(fermented) soy bean sauce, although fish sauce is used more frequently.
Anyway, fish sauce is just fish and salt put in a covered earthenware jar, and
allowed to ferment outside in the sun. The liquid that forms, that is pressed
out, is fish sauce. The fish left in the jar can be eaten and or used as a
"sauce" if mixed and heated a bit with water, or can be used as an ingredient
in dips. This fish product is especially popular in Cambodia where it is
called "prahok." In Lao it's called "padek." Not sure about the other
languages. My bottle has Vienamese on it, but I'm not sure what words refer to
the product... <ma)'m ca' sa).c> perhaps?
[...]
>
>MW> Let us know if you survive.
>
>Pd> I figure, since I live alone, no one will be bothered by
>Pd> a pot of rotting meat in the corner. I do warn my guests,
>Pd> but for some reason, they've been staying away for about
>Pd> last two months....
>
>I think the meat is supposed to be cooked, jerky-ized,
>or in some way "done". All the rottening should be from
>the moldy millet. Thus <hai3> is more like meat sauce
>for spaghetti than ketchup.
>
Are you talking from personal experience here? Have I done the recipe
incorrectly, and put up with this stench for the past two months for naught?!
Seriously though, is this type of sauce still made? I think the book I looked
at said it had died out long ago.
Peter
Chris Robato Yao
>Mike Wright wrote:
>MW> Tomato or no tomato, it's still a long way from the Chinese
>MW> original. (And I've never seen tomato-free "ketchup".)
>MW>
>MW> From the _Chinese-English Dictionary of the Vernacular or
>MW> Spoken Language of Amoy_, published in 1873:
>MW>
>MW> <ke5> (/ke24+p/) "salted or pickled fish or shellfish (the
>MW> name of the fish or shellfish is prefixed)." (Zhangzhou
>MW> dialect, Xiamen is <koe5>)
>MW>
>MW> <chiap4> (/tsiap24-r/) "juice, sap, gravy, etc."
>MW>
>MW> <ke5-chiap4> (/ke24:33+p tsiap24-r/) "brine of pickled
>MW> fish or shellfish."
>MW>
>MW> I wonder if the Indonesian/Malaysian/Singaporean versions
>MW> all use vinegar.
>
>Chris Robato Yao wrote:
>CY> They do.
>
>MW> But someone else answered, and my dictionaries agree, that
>MW> it can sometimes mean "soy sauce". Do they put vinegar in
>MW> their soy sauce?
>
>CY> Yes to that too.
>CY>
>CY> Some other materials are also occasionally, such as spices
>CY> and garlic to give it a hotter flavor, as well as a reddish
>CY> chili based paste (whose appearance is closest to catsup
>CY> itself). In dinner, these four seasonings (soy, vinegar,
>CY> garlic-spices, chili paste) are mixed.
>
>This is not quite the same as saying that the soy sauce is
>"made with" vinegar. I mean, is this soy-sauce-with-vinegar
>considered a "normal" soy sauce (used extensively, including
>for marinating meat); or a "specialty" soy sauce (used only
>in specific places)? (I know, it is a fine line, ...)
No. I am not saying that Soy-sauce is made with vinegar. I am saying
that it is mixed with vinegar.
You will also notice that eating customs with Hokkien people vary from
Cantonese and Mandarin, which the latter do find odd. You know those
small dish you see used to put seasonings? The Hokkien person would mix
vinegar, preferably with black vinegar, then soy, then add hot chili red
paste to it, then stir it with their chopsticks. Then they dab things
on it, like shrimp.
>
>CY> In addition to that, there is something called "black"
>CY> vinegar, which is a dark colored vinegar that is a bit
>CY> salty and briny in taste. This is easily confused with
>CY> soy sauce and sometimes I think it's soy sauce mixed with
>CY> vinegar.
>
>Is this treated as a sour soy sauce or as a salty vinegar?
Depends on your viewpoint. People like that with shark fin soup. I
have black vinegar in my kitchen.
>
>CY> In Tagalog, there is a variation, based on fermenting fish
>CY> with vinegar. It's quite sour, salty and briny and it's
>CY> called patis.
>
>Is this used extensively in lieu of regular soy sauce?
Yes.
Also, here in Guam, I noticed the local people have something called
finedene. I am not sure of its origins. It basically mixes soysauce
with vinegar with plenty of chunks of raw garlic and onion. Swell for
painting on beef and pork barbecue being charcoaled over the beach.
Rgds,
Chris
>
>----------
>e.g., is made in Thailand. In any case, it seems to match
>the Indonesian soy sauce that Peter mentioned more so than
>ketchup. So, could this be the original Amoy <koe5-chiap4>
>"fish brine"?
>
>Another interesting piece of information is that Worcestershire
>sauce is called /kip=-r5 tsap=-r5/ in Cantonese. The character
>for the second syllable is "juice", the same as in <chiap4>.
>However, the first syllable has no matching character. I
>don't know of any etymological theory for this term, but it
>is dated from at least the early part of the century. Since
>Worcestershire sauce is kind of a "ketchup without tomato",
>it is a possible candidate for the proto-ketchup.
>
>One grand unification theory would be that "fish brine" was
>originally like present day "fish dew", but acquire vinegar
>and other ingredients as it moved southward and got influenced
>by the local chutney making methods.
>
>-----------
>
>Pd> Yes. Asia has many fermented products. But they are not
>Pd> all called ketchup/catsup/kecap/ketjap. China used to
>Pd> even have a fermented meat sauce called "hai."
>
>[...]
>
>MW> Let us know if you survive.
>
>Pd> I figure, since I live alone, no one will be bothered by
>Pd> a pot of rotting meat in the corner. I do warn my guests,
>Pd> but for some reason, they've been staying away for about
>Pd> last two months....
>
>I think the meat is supposed to be cooked, jerky-ized,
>or in some way "done". All the rottening should be from
>the moldy millet. Thus <hai3> is more like meat sauce
>for spaghetti than ketchup.
>
>-----------
>
>Pd> So, is the word <hai3> still in use in Chinese? Like for
>Pd> pickled shrimp or minced meat?
>
>Not in common use.
>
>Tak
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Tak To ta...@alum.mit.edu.-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
> [taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the .- to get my real email addr
Tak To
Pd> Here you are talking about fish sauce. In other languages
Pd> it is, as Mike noted
Pd> for Vietnamese: <no+u+'c ma)'m>
Pd> Thailand: nam pla
Pd> Laos: nam pa
Pd> Cambodia: tuk trey
Pd> Burma: ngan-pya-ye
Pd> Philippines: patis
Pd> Yes, so it is used extensively in SE Asia. But these
Pd> countries also have (fermented) soy bean sauce, although
Pd> fish sauce is used more frequently.
Do you know if any of this has vinegar? The Vietnamese
and Thai versions that I have tried has no vinegar. The
Philippine "patis", according to Chris, has vinegar.
Is fish sauce used in Indonesia?
Tak To wrote:
TT> I think the meat is supposed to be cooked, jerky-ized,
TT> or in some way "done". All the rottening should be from
TT> the moldy millet. Thus <hai3> is more like meat sauce
TT> for spaghetti than ketchup.
Pd> Are you talking from personal experience here? Have I
Pd> done the recipe incorrectly, and put up with this stench
Pd> for the past two months for naught?!
Not from personal experience; just my own interpretation of
the passage of <li3ji4> (big5:禮記) that you have quoted
'To prepare "hai" (boneless meat sauce) and "ni" (meat
sauce with bones), it is necessary first to dry the
meat and then cut it up, blend it with moldy millet,
salt, and good wine, and place it in a jar. The sauce
is ready in a hundred days.'
The <ci2> for 'to dry' here was <bo2gan1> (big5:膊乾 --
first character same <bo2> as in <jian1bo2>, "shoulder";
second character is "dry"). <Bo2> has a meaning that is
identical to <pu2> (big5:脯), which is to preserve meat by
pressing and drying it. <Pu2> also refers to the end
product, which I interpret to be something like jerky in
texture.
Plus, personally, I can't quite imagine fermented meat to
be tasty :-)
Pd> Seriously though, is this type of sauce still made?
Not that I know of.
Tak To
MW> [re <yu2lu4> "fish dew"] My wife (from Taiwan) has never
MW> heard the term in either Mandarin or Holo. I asked if she
MW> knew what "nu+o+'c ma('m" was (knowing that she has used
MW> it in cooking), and she said, "Yes, rotten fish." However,
MW> when I pressed her for what she would call it in Holo,
MW> she couldn't come up with anything.
Interesting. Has she always called it by the Vietnamese
name? What about other Holo speakers?
Is <ke5chiap4> still used in Holo today? If so, does it
mean fish sauce or ketchup?
MW> I doubt that Cantonese /kip=-r5/ and Holo /ke=+p/
MW> (or /koe=+p/) come from the same Chinese source, since
MW> Holo entering tones tend to remain entering tones
MW> even after the final consonant disappears (or becomes
MW> a glottal stop). I wonder if it might not be a
MW> re-importation of "ketchup" from English.
Could be. The fact that there is no Cantonese word with
the /kip=-r5/ sound is a further indication that the term
is not of Chinese origin.
MW> Does anyone know whether the OED gives any indication of
MW> the origin and first use of "Worcestershire sauce"?
I have read from somewhere that the concept was imported
from Malaya.
Chris Robato Yao
>Peterdy wrote:
>Pd> Here you are talking about fish sauce. In other languages
>Pd> it is, as Mike noted
>Pd> for Vietnamese: <no+u+'c ma)'m>
>Pd> Thailand: nam pla
>Pd> Laos: nam pa
>Pd> Cambodia: tuk trey
>Pd> Burma: ngan-pya-ye
>Pd> Philippines: patis
>Pd> Yes, so it is used extensively in SE Asia. But these
>Pd> countries also have (fermented) soy bean sauce, although
>Pd> fish sauce is used more frequently.
>
>Do you know if any of this has vinegar? The Vietnamese
>and Thai versions that I have tried has no vinegar. The
>Philippine "patis", according to Chris, has vinegar.
I have to make a correction. I think Patis uses no vinegar. It's
fermented fish sauce.
Rgds,
Chris
Nikos Sarantakos
wrote:
>
>
>Niko,
>
>One thing that would be interesting is to list all Greek words formed from
>Turkish (or even Turkish-sounding) roots, and vice versa, and given a form
>and a meaning that have little or nothing to do with the original language.
>I think we have at least a couple dozen in Greek and many more in Turkish.
>Ex. glentzes, pousths.. ombal... Can't do it out of memory.
>
>
I'll have to check it -has "eglence" a different meaning than
"glentzes"?
In general, Turkish loanwords in Greek tend to undergo pejoration,
i.e. their meaning has shifted to the negative. For instance,
Greek "ha'li" means "bad situation" while "hal" as far as I
know is neutral, meaning "situation, predicament".
In some cases, the Turkish word has or had a religious connotation
that is lost in Greek. This is the case for cenabet, where Greek
tzanampetis simply means an obnoxious person.
nikos
Mike Wright
>
> Mike Wright wrote:
> MW> [re <yu2lu4> "fish dew"] My wife (from Taiwan) has never
> MW> heard the term in either Mandarin or Holo. I asked if she
> MW> knew what "nu+o+'c ma('m" was (knowing that she has used
> MW> it in cooking), and she said, "Yes, rotten fish." However,
> MW> when I pressed her for what she would call it in Holo,
> MW> she couldn't come up with anything.
>
> Interesting. Has she always called it by the Vietnamese
> name? What about other Holo speakers?
She learned the name when a Vietnamese co-worker gave her a bottle many years
ago. (This was here in California.) The fact that she couldn't come up with a
Holo word for it would seem to indicate that they don't have anything quite like
it in Taiwan.
> Is <ke5chiap4> still used in Holo today? If so, does it
> mean fish sauce or ketchup?
Not that I know of. If this had come up before I went to Taiwan last May, I
could have conducted some inquiries, but my wife has been a little hard to get
reliable info out of since her stroke last year.
> MW> I doubt that Cantonese /kip=-r5/ and Holo /ke=+p/
> MW> (or /koe=+p/) come from the same Chinese source, since
> MW> Holo entering tones tend to remain entering tones
> MW> even after the final consonant disappears (or becomes
> MW> a glottal stop). I wonder if it might not be a
> MW> re-importation of "ketchup" from English.
>
> Could be. The fact that there is no Cantonese word with
> the /kip=-r5/ sound
Now that's the kind of fact that cannot be gleaned from those tables of initials
and finals that are so common. I finally broke down and bought _Cantonese: A
Comprehensive Grammar_, by Matthews and Yip, just to have *something* to refer
to, but it lacks an exhaustive list of possible syllables, which I do have for
both Mandarin and Holo--though even those don't include tones.
Am I correct in assuming that the /k/ in /kip=-r5/ is unaspirated?
> is a further indication that the term
> is not of Chinese origin.
[...]
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
wrote:
>The ingredients of Lea & Perrins ("The Original Worcestershire") Sauce are
>"water, vinegar, molasses, high fructose corn syrup, anchovies, hydrolized soy
>and corn protein, onions, tamarinds, salt, garlic, cloves, chili peppers,
>natural flavorings and shallots." I'm pretty sure one of the unspecified
>"natural flavorings" is ginger. All in all, this looks like something that was
>originally brought to England from Southeast Asia. Perhaps some clever
>inhabitant of Worcester took soy sauce, fish sauce, and spices imported from
>Asia, and just mixed them all together with a little vinegar and molasses.
The last time Worcestershire Sauce came up in sci.lang, I
suggested a Goan origin. It looks a lot like a Portuguese meat
marinade with Indian ingredients added to it.
==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal ~ ~
Amsterdam _____________ ~ ~
m...@wxs.nl |_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig
Peterdy
>Peterdy wrote:
>Pd> Here you are talking about fish sauce. In other languages
>Pd> it is, as Mike noted
>Pd> for Vietnamese: <no+u+'c ma)'m>
>Pd> Thailand: nam pla
>Pd> Laos: nam pa
>Pd> Cambodia: tuk trey
>Pd> Burma: ngan-pya-ye
>Pd> Philippines: patis
>Pd> Yes, so it is used extensively in SE Asia. But these
>Pd> countries also have (fermented) soy bean sauce, although
>Pd> fish sauce is used more frequently.
>
>Do you know if any of this has vinegar? The Vietnamese
>and Thai versions that I have tried has no vinegar. The
>Philippine "patis", according to Chris, has vinegar.
>
Well, Chris just clarified what he meant. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the other
versions are also not made with vinegar. Fish sauce is, of course, often mixed
with vinegar, chilies etc. to make a dipping sauce. And Chris mentioned this
is often done right at the table.
>Is fish sauce used in Indonesia?
>
Well...I've never seen it mentioned in my cookbooks or anywhere else. So, I
guess I'd say no. Which is strange, because they have many of the other
fermented ingredients found in SE Asia: fermented shrimp sauce/paste, fermented
soy bean sauce, fermented doufu... I'm sure it has to exist somewhere on all
those far-flung islands though.
>Tak To wrote:
>TT> I think the meat is supposed to be cooked, jerky-ized,
>TT> or in some way "done". All the rottening should be from
>TT> the moldy millet. Thus <hai3> is more like meat sauce
>TT> for spaghetti than ketchup.
>
>Pd> Are you talking from personal experience here? Have I
>Pd> done the recipe incorrectly, and put up with this stench
>Pd> for the past two months for naught?!
>
>Not from personal experience; just my own interpretation of
>the passage of <li3ji4> (big5:禮記) that you have quoted
>
> 'To prepare "hai" (boneless meat sauce) and "ni" (meat
> sauce with bones), it is necessary first to dry the
> meat and then cut it up, blend it with moldy millet,
> salt, and good wine, and place it in a jar. The sauce
> is ready in a hundred days.'
>
>The <ci2> for 'to dry' here was <bo2gan1> (big5:膊乾 --
>first character same <bo2> as in <jian1bo2>, "shoulder";
>second character is "dry"). <Bo2> has a meaning that is
>identical to <pu2> (big5:脯), which is to preserve meat by
>pressing and drying it. <Pu2> also refers to the end
>product, which I interpret to be something like jerky in
>texture.
>
Interesting. I mentioned earlier that the fish pieces in the fish sauce pot
can be used as a sauce or seasoning or even cooked in whole pieces. In some
styles I have seen in the store, the fish is still quite intact, and the pieces
look sort of dry and, indeed, jerky-like, even though they are surrounded by a
liquid.
Unfortunately for me, I don't know Chinese, so I can't investigate this as much
as I'd like. Also, it seems that the Japanese also study ancient Chinese
cooking quite intensively, and that's another language I dont' know. Well,
I'll first concentrate on learning Chinese.
Thanks!
Peter
Tak To
TT> [...] The fact that there is no Cantonese word with
TT> the /kip=-r5/ sound is a further indication that the term
TT> is not of Chinese origin.
Mike Wright wrote:
MW> Now that's the kind of fact that cannot be gleaned from
MW> those tables of initials and finals that are so common.
MW> I finally broke down and bought _Cantonese: A Comprehensive
MW> Grammar_, by Matthews and Yip, just to have *something*
MW> to refer to, but it lacks an exhaustive list of possible
MW> syllables, which I do have for both Mandarin and Holo--
MW> though even those don't include tones.
Try "A Chinese Syllabary Pronounced According to the Dialect
of Canton" by S.L. Wong (big5:黃錫凌), Publish by Chung Hwa
(big5:中華), 1941, 1993. ISBN 962-231-201-2. It even has
a web version at http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton/
A lot of small to medium size dictionaries published in the
PRC are arranged by <pinyin> and tone order. I don't
know about the really big ones.
MW> Am I correct in assuming that the /k/ in /kip=-r5/ is
MW> unaspirated?
Yup.
----------
[Correction 1] The tone notation above should be /=+-r5/,
indicating an "upper yin entering tone".
[Correction 2] When I said that the sound /kip=+-r5/ was
not mapped to any "word", I was thinking of word as in
<zi4>. It is perhaps more correct to say that the sound
is mapped to words which have no (known) character
representation. Thus, besides used in a compound that
means "Worcestershire sauce", /kip=+-r5/ has two other
meanings: (1) a suitcase; and (2) to squeeze (oneself into
a crowd), the adjective form of which ("crowded, narrow")
is /kip=--r3/, differing only in tone. /kip=--r3/ could
be a variant pronunciation of <zhai3>/<ze2> (big5:窄,
"narrow"), normally pronounced as /tsa:k=--r3/.
In any case, the meaning of "suitcase" looks like a
transcription of a foreign word; but I don't know which.
Tak To
TT> [re various forms of "fish sauce" in SE Asian countries]
TT> Do you know if any of this has vinegar? The Vietnamese
TT> and Thai versions that I have tried has no vinegar. The
TT> Philippine "patis", according to Chris, has vinegar.
Peterdy wrote:
Pd> Well, Chris just clarified what he meant. Otherwise, I'm
Pd> pretty sure the other versions are also not made with
Pd> vinegar.
Hm, the theory of "ketchup" coming from <ke5chiap4> ("<Ke5>
fish sauce" in Zhangzhou dialect) seems a bit problematic.
- According to what Mike has said, it does not look like
that fish sauce is native to the Holo culture in
Taiwan/China.
- Fish sauce is never made with vinegar.
- It does not look like that fish sauce is widely used in
Malaysia and Indonesia; while "ketchup" was alleged to
come from Malay.
- <Kecap> in Malay refers to soy sauce, maybe fish sauce,
but not ketchup.
It seems that there was a three-way conflation of terms
here. Or have I misunderstood the theory completely in
the first place?
sara...@my-deja.com
"mb" <mmbDEL...@concenDELETEtric.net> wrote:
>
> Niko,
>
> One thing that would be interesting is to list
all Greek words formed from
> Turkish (or even Turkish-sounding) roots, and
vice versa, and given a form
> and a meaning that have little or nothing to do
with the original language.
> I think we have at least a couple dozen in
Greek and many more in Turkish.
> Ex. glentzes, pousths.. ombal... Can't do it
out of memory.
>
(from eGlence, or rather from the verb eGlenmek)
has changed much its meaning.
The same with "poustis", from Tk. "puSt", which,
as I see in Redhouse means "catamite", i.e. the
same with the current Greek meaning, no? (There
are two Tk. words 'puSt' as I see).
nikos
Nikos Sarantakos
>On 08 Aug 1999 16:04:17 PDT, "mb" <mmbDEL...@concenDELETEtric.net>
>wrote:
>
> >
>>
>>Niko,
>>
>>One thing that would be interesting is to list all Greek words formed from
>>Turkish (or even Turkish-sounding) roots, and vice versa, and given a form
>>and a meaning that have little or nothing to do with the original language.
>>I think we have at least a couple dozen in Greek and many more in Turkish.
>>Ex. glentzes, pousths.. ombal... Can't do it out of memory.
"eGlence" or the verb "eGlenmek".
As to "poustis", it comes from 'puSt', which acc. to Redhouse means
'catamite', hence the meaning is identical.
nikos
Vladimir Menkov
>Vladimir Menkov wrote:
>I make a thick sweet-pepper-and-vinegar sauce, myself, but I've wouldn't call it
>"ketchup". Do the Bulgarians actually use the word "ketchup"?
Yup, that's what the bottle label said.
It's a shame that the term "ketchup" has been practically usurped in
thiks country by its tomato variety. This must be Heinz's nefarious
deed :-)
--vld.
Mike Wright
>
> Tak To wrote:
> TT> [...] The fact that there is no Cantonese word with
> TT> the /kip=-r5/ sound is a further indication that the term
> TT> is not of Chinese origin.
>
> Mike Wright wrote:
> MW> Now that's the kind of fact that cannot be gleaned from
> MW> those tables of initials and finals that are so common.
> MW> I finally broke down and bought _Cantonese: A Comprehensive
> MW> Grammar_, by Matthews and Yip, just to have *something*
> MW> to refer to, but it lacks an exhaustive list of possible
> MW> syllables, which I do have for both Mandarin and Holo--
> MW> though even those don't include tones.
>
> Try "A Chinese Syllabary Pronounced According to the Dialect
> (big5:€€µØ), 1941, 1993. ISBN 962-231-201-2. It even has
> a web version at http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton/
Thanks. That will be very useful. (Now I wish I'd been able to study Cantonese
instead of Arabic.)
[...]
> [Correction 1] The tone notation above should be /=+-r5/,
> indicating an "upper yin entering tone".
>
> [Correction 2] When I said that the sound /kip=+-r5/ was
> not mapped to any "word", I was thinking of word as in
> <zi4>. It is perhaps more correct to say that the sound
> is mapped to words which have no (known) character
> representation. Thus, besides used in a compound that
> means "Worcestershire sauce", /kip=+-r5/ has two other
> meanings: (1) a suitcase; and (2) to squeeze (oneself into
> a crowd), the adjective form of which ("crowded, narrow")
> is /kip=--r3/, differing only in tone. /kip=--r3/ could
> be a variant pronunciation of <zhai3>/<ze2> (big5:¯¶,
> "narrow"), normally pronounced as /tsa:k=--r3/.
>
> In any case, the meaning of "suitcase" looks like a
> transcription of a foreign word; but I don't know which.
it's probably from "grip", which doesn't seem to be as common in the US nowadays
as it was when I was a kid.
I seem to recall a discussion where someone mentioned that certain tones are
commonly used for loanwords coming into Cantonese. If that is the case, then
/kip=+-r5 tsap=-r5/ meaning "Worchestershire sauce" really could be derived from
"ketchup" or from some Holo or Indonesian variant. (That is, if "grip" shows
that /kip=+-r5/ has a tone that is characteristic of a loanword.)
--
Mike "Wild Guesses'R'Us" Wright
Yusuf B Gursey
: In article <7ol2dh$t...@journal.concentric.net>,
: "mb" <mmbDEL...@concenDELETEtric.net> wrote:
: >
: > Niko,
: >
: > One thing that would be interesting is to list
: all Greek words formed from
: > Turkish (or even Turkish-sounding) roots, and
: vice versa, and given a form
: > and a meaning that have little or nothing to do
: with the original language.
: > I think we have at least a couple dozen in
: Greek and many more in Turkish.
: > Ex. glentzes, pousths.. ombal... Can't do it
: out of memory.
: On a second thought, I don't see how "Glentzes"
: (from eGlence, or rather from the verb eGlenmek)
: has changed much its meaning.
: The same with "poustis", from Tk. "puSt", which,
: as I see in Redhouse means "catamite", i.e. the
: same with the current Greek meaning, no? (There
: are two Tk. words 'puSt' as I see).
: nikos
the first, which you gave, is the only one regularly
understood. the second, the original persian meaning
"back", is used only in the pedantic ottoman style.
if you use it in turkey expect to be understood in
the first meaning!
: Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Christian Weisgerber
> In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
> phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
> language. Examples are:
How did "flipper" come to mean a pinball machine in both French and
German?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.rhein-neckar.de
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Helmut Richter <Helmut....@lrz-muenchen.de> wrote:
>
> > In a discussion in another newsgroup (alt.usage.german), we had the
> > phenomenon of loanwords that do not exist in the alleged source
> > language. Examples are:
>
> How did "flipper" come to mean a pinball machine in both French and
> German?
Because pinball machines have flippers operated by buttons on the sides?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Chris Robato Yao
>Tak To wrote:
>Hm, the theory of "ketchup" coming from <ke5chiap4> ("<Ke5>
>fish sauce" in Zhangzhou dialect) seems a bit problematic.
>
> - According to what Mike has said, it does not look like
> that fish sauce is native to the Holo culture in
> Taiwan/China.
>
> - Fish sauce is never made with vinegar.
But it is sour enough to be mistaken as such.
>
> - It does not look like that fish sauce is widely used in
> Malaysia and Indonesia; while "ketchup" was alleged to
> come from Malay.
>
> - <Kecap> in Malay refers to soy sauce, maybe fish sauce,
> but not ketchup.
>
>It seems that there was a three-way conflation of terms
>here. Or have I misunderstood the theory completely in
>the first place?
Well, I can tell you one thing, Participation in this thread made me
check out a Philippine diner for dinner. Just ended up becoming hungry
I supposed.
Peterdy
>Hm, the theory of "ketchup" coming from <ke5chiap4> ("<Ke5>
>fish sauce" in Zhangzhou dialect) seems a bit problematic.
>
> - According to what Mike has said, it does not look like
> that fish sauce is native to the Holo culture in
> Taiwan/China.
>
Well, first, as far as I know, Mike wasn't positive. Second, maybe in Fujian
itself fish sauce is used. Third, maybe it is only now in the late 20th
century that fish sauce isn't common. Fourth, Asia, and especially China, are
masters of food preservation, esp. fermentation. The West is still way behind,
or maybe it is just a lost art (fermented fish sauce, "liquamen," was an
important condiment in Ancient Rome, for example.) So, considering this
Chinese obsession with food preservation (I mean, does the West have anything
comparable to the various ways of preserving eggs in China?), I simply cannot
imagine that SE China did not or does not have a sauce of fermented fish.
Two notes:
1. I looked at the "Food in Chinese Culture" book again, and found an entry on
fish sauce in the chapter on the Tang dynasty. But they say it went by the
name of "cha," which is Wade-Giles, I guess. Would the pinyin be "zha"? Fish
radical on the left, and <zha4> ["first"] on the right–so, I guess the pinyin
is indeed "zha". Nevertheless, this difference in name may not mean much. In
the Philippines, there is the liquid, brown, clear, fermented fish sauce called
"patis." But there are other fermented fish and seafood products that go by
other names, for example "bagoong," which can be either fermented, small, whole
fish, or fermented small shrimp. Bagoong can be quite fresh (like pickled
herring in northern Europe) or very fermented and broken down, such that it
could be called a sauce.
2. This doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, but my first post to
sci.lang was addressed to Mike and concerned Holo. He gave me a thorough
reply, but I still have a few questions!
> - Fish sauce is never made with vinegar.
>
I think the person who said that ketchup was any sauce that had vinegar was
referring to the word <ketchup> in the West only, and the American Heritage
Dictionary backs up this contention. So, I don't think that it matters if
<ke5chiap4> in southern China had vinegar or not.
> - It does not look like that fish sauce is widely used in
> Malaysia and Indonesia; while "ketchup" was alleged to
> come from Malay.
>
The etymology according to the American Heritage Dictionary:
"Ketchup, probably Malay <kechap>, fish sauce, possibly from Chinese
(Cantonese) <ke-tsiap>. [...]The source of our word <ketchup> may be the Malay
word <kechap>, possibly taken into Malay from the Cantonese dialect of Chinese.
Kechap, like our word, referred to a kind of sauce, but a sauce without
tomatoes; rather, it contained fish brine, herbs, and spices."
So, yes, I agree, it is strange. Even if a fermented fish sauce is or was used
in some parts of Malaysia, you would think it would have had to have been
common for it to become a loan word for the West, especially since the sauce
was supposed to have "emigrated to Europe by way of sailors." My Indonesian
cookbooks describe many ingredients, including some strange ones only to be
found in Indonesia. So, I think if fish sauce were common it would have been
mentioned in my cookbooks. Then again, I'm not sure if it might not be common
in Malaysia.
> - <Kecap> in Malay refers to soy sauce, maybe fish sauce,
> but not ketchup.
>
OK, what you write here is a bit confusing, because if the Malay <kecap>
"maybe" refers to fish sauce too (and not just soy sauce), then the etymology
wouldn't be a problem.
But, yes. Overall, for me, the main problem is that in Bahasa Indonesian (and
it's pretty much the same as Malay, correct?), kecap seems to refer only to soy
sauce and not to a fermented fish sauce. Chris' suggestion may point to an
answer: there may have simply been a confusion by the Westerners as to what
<kecap> really was, because both soy sauce and fish sauce are very salty.
When used in cooking, they do indeed impart divergent flavors to a dish. But
straight out of the bottle, or when used as a dipping sauce, the main taste of
both might be taken to be just salty. (Only problem is that in Indonesia, the
main type of soy sauce is a sweet soy sauce, not a salty one.... In fact, kecap
manis is almost a defining feature of the Indonesian cuisine.)
It is funny though, that the American Heritage has the Malay "kechap" to mean
fish sauce. Maybe that is correct?
>It seems that there was a three-way conflation of terms
>here. Or have I misunderstood the theory completely in
>the first place?
>
Well, I hope this post clarified the original theory. I also hope the
suggestions I offered were clear. But I agree: the given etymology doesn't
fit too well with what we have been discussing here on this thread!
Peter
Peterdy
>Well, I can tell you one thing, Participation in this thread made me
>check out a Philippine diner for dinner. Just ended up becoming hungry
>I supposed.
Yeah, I got hungry too...though not from the fermented meat discussion (though
I'd like to try it!). But, I mean, casually going to fetch some red curry
chicken from the kitchen? Barbecuing on a beach?! I live in Seattle, and we
have yet to have a summer this year, let alone a nice sunny beach on which to
barbecue! Consider yourself lucky!
Peter