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origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Age
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Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 18, 2019, 8:22:04 AM11/18/19
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origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Age
***
Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake
of Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed
that the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic at a conference) and Robert
Stieglitz and Jan Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enume-
ration of cereals: on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal,
later on identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal). Most interesting for
me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life for The ...
The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon
recognized Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.
Ugaritic has d-d-m-sh for the goddess, and Yigael Yadin found her name
in the form of d-d-y-m-sh on a Hebrew seal from Tell Djemmeh (1960).
Hence the final syllable was pronounced tha, as in English (ta and tha are
given by the same sign, and Hinz remarks that Linear A and B were botched
scripts). We have then ma-tha, she 'loved by matha'. Matha is known from
Sinai inscriptions (published by Hinz in a journal). Semitic matha means
'chief, lord, master'. Dadumatha was 'loved by the master' a-du Haddu Baal
(later on young god, Minoan Zeus). The language of Linear A tablet Hagia
Triada 95 is Northwest Semitic, as 'predicted' by Gordon.
The word mi-nu-te means 'wheat from mu-nu-ti-um Ugaritic mnt' better
known as Ebla in Syria (some sixty kilometers south of Aleppo), by then
a fertile river oasis.
Follows my development.
I read mi-nu-te as 'wheat from Ebla' and Mi-Nu-The as New Ebla in the West,
kingdom of Minos, the kings called Minos residing at Knossos. Minnith in
Ezekiel 27:17 - "wheat of Minnith" - mentioned by Hinz can't have been Ebla
but was a further New Ebla, this time in the South, on the fertile altiplano
of Jordania.
The Minoans came from Ebla. Mi-Nu-The is given much the same way in
Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and Linear B
Mi head of a bull
Nu visual pun a bull leaper, a young man or a girl on feet hands feet
The a stylized tree of life
Mi-Nu-The on another Linear A tablet from Hagia Triada
http://www.seshat.ch/home/minos.jpg
Enter Magdalenian
MUC for bull, became Mi
NOS for mind, became Nu (Greek nous)
SAI for life, became The
MUC NOS SAI Mi No S Minos
MUC NOS SAI C NOS S Knossos
Baal rose as golden calf = morning sun from the tree of life, while the Stone
Age bull was the moon (Marie E.P. König). The bull leaper standing on his
or her feet (before the bull) hands (on the bull) and feet again (behind the
bull) symbolizes astronomy, the art of calculating cycles of celestial bodies.
And the tree of life says that astronomy was vital for the seafaring Minoans
(as it had been for navigating the Syrian desert).
A lunisolar calendar is encoded in the myth of Minotaur in the labyrinth
(Linear B da-pu-ri-to) of Knossos. A minotaur, half bull half man, was
already known in Ebla.
New idea: Ebla might perhaps go back to AC BLA, expanse of land with
water AC black BLA (inverse of white ALB), naming the fertile river
oasis for its 'black earth', parallel to misr 'black' that names Egypt as land
of the fertile river oasis. Ebla must have been equally fertile as the Nile
Valley.
How sad what happens in Syria now!
***
Ebla was inhabited from 4000 BC till 700 AD, and Crete already in Neolithic
times. The Early Bronze Age of Ebla began in 2700 BC, the Early Minoan period
somewhat before 2600 BC. Ebla was engaged in long-distance trading. I guess
they had an outpost in Crete, which grew and grew, and was much enlarged
when Sargon of Akkad (or Naram-Sin) destroyed the palace of Ebla in the 23rd
century BC, followed by marauding Amurrites.
Ebla was immensely rich. The kingdom might have extended as far as Damascus.
Ebla in the form of mu-nu-ti-um appears on a cuneiform document from 2200 BC.
Ugaritic has mnt. And New Ebla in the West would have been called Mi-Nu-The,
kingdom of Minos, name and title of every Minoan king, rendered much in the
same way in Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and B - as head of a bull for Mi,
visual pun of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and a strongly stylized
tree of life for The. The persistence of this ensemble of signs over a long period
of time speaks for its importance.
Apparently the Minoans abandoned cuneiforms and invented a hieroglyphic script
which was later on developed into Linear A. Minoan Crete, laboratory of early
writing.
The supreme weather god of the Hurrians was Teshup or Teshpak, the one of
the Semites Baal in the form of Haddu, mentioned as a-du on the Linear A tablet
Hagia Triada 95. Baal as Haddu was implored for rain. Who was Dadumatha,
she loved by the master a-du Haddu Baal?
She might have been the supreme Minoan goddess Britomartis, implored for rain
by the inscription on the altar stone of Mallia, deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth:
May the goddess let it rain.
So the cereals for Haddu and Dadumatha listed up on HT95 should mollify
him and her. Otherwise they might cause a drought, and Britomartis turn
into Lousia the Angry One, while Demeter-Elaia from Phigalia turned into
Black Demeter-Melaina who caused a famine, commemorated as Demeter
Eryns by Pausanias, Demeter as one of the Furies.
Derk Ohlenroth deciphered not only the Phaistos Disc and altar stone
inscription of Mallia but also the short inscription on a bronze double axe
from the cult cave Arkalochori in Central Crete: I belong to the goddess
Lousia. Three signs correspond to Phaistos Disc hieroglyphs, while one side
of the disc is devoted to Demeter-Elaia and her daughter Nyx who gave oracles.
All hangs together, centered in agriculture, from a time when people could
not just go a few blocks down to a supermarket and get everything they needed.
***
Pondering the etymology of labyrinth given as dapurito in Linear B led me
to a Sumerian myth of creation in a Babylonian version. The first people were
immortal and procreated. Ever more and more of them populated the earth
and made such a racket that Enlil could no longer sleep. The gods decided
to eliminate the human race. Enlil created a horrible monster called Labbu,
a giant snake. Labbu devoured most humans, and was such an awful beast
that it was feared by all gods. One of them succeeded in killing it, whereupon
its blood flew for several years. The mother-goddess was outraged because of
the almost complete extinction of humanity. Finally a compromise was reached.
The surviving humans were allowed to live on, but became mortal, so they
would no longer over-populate the world.
Labbu might account for laby- dapu-. Now for -rinth -rito. The closest match
is Greek rhytaer 'archer; guard, protector'. Dragons lived in caves. Many
big caves are labyrinths of gangways. A labyrinth might originally have been
such a cave guarded by an imaginary dragon - a mini-Labbu, as it were -
whose evil breath might have been a sulfuric gas emerging from a cleft in
the rock. Consider also Hebrew laba for lava.
Another man-eating monster inhabited the labyrinth of Knossos, Minotaur.
Actually, the myth of Minotaur encodes a lunisolar calendar, and the labyrinth
symbolizes the complicated astronomical calculations carried out in offices
of the labyrinthic palace of Knossos.
Maybe also the Babylonian myth of Labbu was concerned about time. As long
as people were immortal, time was of no importance. But then Labbu ended
their lives. And the final compromise: we are given a limited lifetime.
Let us make the best of it.
***
Daidalos (DAI for protected area) built a labyrinth for the bull-man
Minotaur (TOR for bull in motion). Every ninth year the monster demanded
seven virgins and seven young men. Theseus killed him and freed the victims.
Together they found a way out of the labyrinth following Ariadne's thread.
This myth encodes a complex and ingenious lunisolar calendar.
Minotaur of the double nature embodies two periods of time, 9 and 235
lunations or synodic months; king Minos 9 years; each of the seven virgins
and seven young men 19 days; and Theseus 19 years; while Ariadne's thread
were additive number sequences.
9 lunations of Minotaur counted in the 30 29 30 mode yield 266 days
19 days for each of the seven vigins and seven young men are again 266 days
- metaphorically speaking they give their lives for the monster
9 years of king Minos are seven regular years of 365 days plus two leap
years of 366 days, in all 3,287 days, or 173 periods of 19 days - the king
offered the young ones to Minotaur every 9th year
19 years of Theseus are 235 lunations - thus he overcame the 235 lunations
of Minotaur
One of Ariadne's threads was a special number sequence correlating lunations
(l) and years (y)
l/y 37/3 99/8 136/11 235/19 371/30
37/3 was used by the Celts (two years of 12 lunations plus one leap year of
13 lunations). 99/8 underlies the Lascaux calendar, and the dingir calendar of
Sumer which also includes Venus. 235/19 is present in the calendar of Knossos,
and 371/30 in the calendar of Mallia.
The Minoans believed in a giant subterranean bull causing earthquakes.
Lord Evans experienced a Cretan earthquake, heard the 'bull' bellow,
and found the metaphor adequate. Natural catastrophes were ascribed to
monsters of many guises, Labbu of Babylon a sea monster, serpent, dragon,
lion, all in one. What are now curious myths had once been philosophy.
Even science in the case of the calendar of Minotaur.
***
The lunisolar calendar of Mallia is encoded in the round stone kernos
in a corner of the royal court. Along the rim are 33 smaller cup marks
plus a bigger one. Count 11 days for each smaller bowl, and 2 or 3 more
days for the larger bowl, thus you get a regular year of 365 and an
occasional leap year of 366 days.
A Mallia week had 11 days and a month 33 days.
Count 19 lunations or synodic months in the 30 29 30 mode and you get
561 days, or 51 Mallia weeks of 11 days, or 17 Mallia months of 33 days.
Remember Ariadne's thread correlating lunations and years
37/7 99/8 136/11 235/19 371/30
235/19 was used for the Knossos calendar. Now let us look at 371/30
meaning that 371 lunations correspond to 30 years. Let us check this out.
Count 15 and 17 lunations in the 30 29 30 mode and you'll obtain
443 and 502 days respectively. Then carry out the following additions
17 15 17 15 17 or 17 32 49 64 81 lunations
502 443 502 443 502 443 502 or 502 945 1477 1890 2392 days
81 64 64 64 49 49 sum 371 lunations
2392 1890 1890 1890 1447 1447 sum 10956 days
371 lunations are 10,956 days (not even four hours less, mistake per
lunation about half a minute).
Now for days in 30 years. Draw up another additive number sequence
365/1 (plus 1461/4) 1826/5 3287/9 ... 9131/25
3,287 days for 19 years were used for the calendar of Minotaur. Let us
add 1,826 and 9,131 days for 5 and 25 days. Together we have 10,957 days
(not even seven hours more, mistake less than thirteen minutes per year).
A close match to the 10,956 days for 371 lunations.
371 lunations correspond to 10,956 days or 996 Mallia weeks or 332 Mallia
months. Add one leap day and you have 10,957 days for 30 years.
The Mallia calendar worked for a nice round number of 30 years.
Maybe the kernos represents a calendar sanctuary in form of a ceremonial
garden? connected with a mythical story about vegetation?
***
A famous and very beautiful fresco from the palace of Knossos
http://www.seshat.ch/home/europa1.jpg
shows a proud bull before a night blue background (rests of the original
color) and three human figures demonstrating the stages of bull leaping.
A girl takes him by the horns, a young man turns a somersault over him,
and a second girl who landed safely behind him raises her arms for
keeping balance, in the joy that she succeeded, and ready to catch
the young man when he comes down. All three figures and the bull
are shown in full action while hovering in the sky.
The Minoan sport of bull leaping symbolized Minoan astronomy,
the art of calculating celestial cycles. Look at the girl before the bull
and draw a horizontal line at her eye level --- the line will appear
as horizon, and the perfect arc of the upper curve of the bull' neck
as full moon rising above the horizon
http//www.seshat.ch/home/europa2.jpg
Magdalenian OC means right eye, inverse CO means attentive mind,
ORI means horizon, the permutation OIR means to watch the moon
rise above the horizon, AIR means to raise the arms in joy. These
words and meanings (mined in 2005/06) are a perfect match for
the girls in the freso
OIR OC CO she watches the moon rise over the horizon OIR
with open eyes OC and focused mind CO
AIR OC CO she raises her arms in joy AIR
with open eyes OC and focused mind CO
Minoan bull leaping was also a symbol of the human condition. AD TOR OC CO,
toward AD the bull in motion TOR with open eyes OC and focused mind CO
- facing the bull, taking him by the horns, coping with fate ...
AD TOR OC CO Mycenaean atoroqo Greek anthropos 'human being'.
OC CO oqo opos opsis - a phonetic shift allowing the asummption
OIR OC OC Europa
AIR OC CO Europa
Greek Europa means 'Far Looking One' or 'Wide Looking One'. Astronomers
watching the moon and observing the sky look far and wide.
The origin of Europa would then have been Minoan astronomy that came from
Ebla in Syria.
******
end of Mediterranean Bronze Age
Where did the Luvians come from? Let me propose a hypothesis based
on place names.
POL LAS Wilusa (W)Ilios Ilion (Homeric Troy)
POL means a fortified settlement (Greek polis Latin villa French ville),
and LAS a hill, or a mountain in what I call 'attention perspective':
a hill heightened by an awe and fear inspiring cyclopic wall. Homer's
Polyphem - a famous cyclops who resembled more a wooded mountain top
than a man who eats bread - symbolizes Troy, his one eye the acropolis
overlooking the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa that
provided protected shelter for 5,000 - 10,000 people.
TYR PAS Taruwisa Troy
TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, and PAS
everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me.
Troy dominated a crossing point of important tradeways (S-N and E-W),
and was protected from above by TYR SsEYR Sseus Zeus who ruled everywhere
PAS. According to Homer, Zeus and Athene had once been on the Trojan side.
KOD DhAG AS Hattusas (Hattushas)
KOD means tent, hut; several Sanskrit derivatives name strongholds. DhAG
means able, here a massive stronghold able to hold up all enemies (except
an inner usurpator who caused the fall of the mighty Hittite empire). And
AS means upward, up above. Together a really strong fortress on top of
a hill or mountain.
POL LAS named Athene as Pallas Athene.
Inverse LAS POL might have named the Luvian language, luwili
POL LAS Wilusa LAS POL luwili ?
POL Wil- LAS -lusa LAS lu- POL -wili
a language spoken by people residing in a palace on top of a hill or mountain
around 1600 BC ? how about Erzurum at the base of the Palandöken daglari
POL LAS DhAG Palandök- ??
Also the Hatti people or Hittites came a long way, from somewhere in the East
and/or North. Their last station before Hattusas (Hattushas) had been Nesa
Kültepe Kanish Kayseri.
***
Manfred Korfmann, late excavator of Troy, was convinced that the Trojans
had been Luvians.
The antagonist of Troy was Ahhiyawa (Akhiyawa or Achijawa) Achaia,
identified as the Peloponnese with Mycene. Its name could go back to
AChI AD DA, swelling river AChI plus the generic river formula AD DA for
water flowing toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills or mountains.
This would go along with AChI )EI or AChI LEi Achilles, comparing the
fiercest Greek warrior to a river tsunami, swelling water attacking with
the vehemence of a lion.
Arzawa has been located in Lydia, western Anatolia, and was previously called
Luwija, land of the Luvians. The origin of the name Arzawa might have been
ARC AD DA, again the polished river formula AD DA -awa, this time combined
with a bear ARC (originally a cave bear, then Greek arktos for bear).
German has bärenstark 'strong like a bear', and reissen 'rip, tear' for both
a predatory animal killing a prey, eine Beute reissen, and a torrential
river, ein reissender Fluss. If this etymology holds, also the Luvians
had been fierce warriors.
Now the question is: where did the Luvians come from? did they cross
the Dardanelles? or did they come a long way from the East? maybe passing
Erzurum and the Dalandöken daglari? moving and spreading in a wide arc
around Hittite territory? finally reaching and overtaking Troy? or just
blending in?
***
Achilles had been attacked by the waves of the river Scamander, a river
called Xanthos by the gods. Greek xanthos named all hues of copper ore,
yellow brown reddish, hence the river attacking Achilles was the Trojan
army, soldiers clad in copper and bronze armaments. And this confirms
AChI )EI or AChI LEI Achilles, comparing the fierce warrior to a river
tsunami striking with the vehemence of a lion - Achilles met his equal.
Eponymous Tiryns, hero of the Phaistos Disc, Lord Laertes in Homer’s
Odyssey, was the mythological father of Odysseus whose name might go
back to AD DA SAI, again the generic river formula AD DA but now
followed by SAI for life, together life along rivers, or life as river in
the sense of the title of a French film: La vie est une longue fleuve
tranquille, life is a long and tranquil river. But not always! A river can
swell and flood a plain. Odysseus - 'if there ever was such a man’
(Homer) - got angry, Greek odyssomai ‘be angry’.
What was the reason of his anger? The Mycenaean tin came from
Central Asia and was bound to pass the Dardanelles where the Trojans
laid hands on the precious cargo - abducting Helen of the white arms,
Homeric personification of tin, her husband xanthos Menelaos the
symbol of copper, and their daughter lovely Hermione who resembled
golden Aphrodite the symbol of bronze, alloy of copper and tin,
of a golden shine when freshly cast. Abducting beautiful Helen means
confiscating tin destined for Mycenae which led to a series of incidents
that culminated in the Trojan War.
Polyphem is the Homeric symbol of Troy VIIa, his one eye the acropolis
overlooking the river plain, his body downtown Troy, his cave the harbor
in the Besik bay, his goats and sheep foreign ships, and their milk high fees
foreign sailors had to pay for waiting in the harbor until a favorable wind
came up.
The Greek ships were horses, resting in the mouthing area of the Simois
and Scamander, mosquito infested swamps explaining the malaria episode
in the Iliad.
The war dragged on. Then wily Odysseus had an idea. He let a seemingly
abandoned ship drift along the Aegean shore and pass the Besik bay.
The guards of the harbor hauled it in - whereupon hidden Achaean soldier
leapt out and took the guards by surprise. The castel, some three kilometers
away, was alarmed. The Trojan army sped to the harbor. Meanwhile
Achaean archers hiding near the stronghold shot fire arrows over the
cyclopic wall and burned down the acropolis - blinding Polyphem,
as it were.
Poseidon and Apollo got so angry that they made the Simois and Scarmander
swell and sweep away all vestiges of the Greek camps, as related in the middle
of the Iliad, end of book 12.
***
***
Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake
of Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed
that the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic at a conference) and Robert
Stieglitz and Jan Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enume-
ration of cereals: on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal,
later on identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal). Most interesting for
me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life for The ...
The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon
recognized Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.
Ugaritic has d-d-m-sh for the goddess, and Yigael Yadin found her name
in the form of d-d-y-m-sh on a Hebrew seal from Tell Djemmeh (1960).
Hence the final syllable was pronounced tha, as in English (ta and tha are
given by the same sign, and Hinz remarks that Linear A and B were botched
scripts). We have then ma-tha, she 'loved by matha'. Matha is known from
Sinai inscriptions (published by Hinz in a journal). Semitic matha means
'chief, lord, master'. Dadumatha was 'loved by the master' a-du Haddu Baal
(later on young god, Minoan Zeus). The language of Linear A tablet Hagia
Triada 95 is Northwest Semitic, as 'predicted' by Gordon.
The word mi-nu-te means 'wheat from mu-nu-ti-um Ugaritic mnt' better
known as Ebla in Syria (some sixty kilometers south of Aleppo), by then
a fertile river oasis.
Follows my development.
I read mi-nu-te as 'wheat from Ebla' and Mi-Nu-The as New Ebla in the West,
kingdom of Minos, the kings called Minos residing at Knossos. Minnith in
Ezekiel 27:17 - "wheat of Minnith" - mentioned by Hinz can't have been Ebla
but was a further New Ebla, this time in the South, on the fertile altiplano
of Jordania.
The Minoans came from Ebla. Mi-Nu-The is given much the same way in
Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and Linear B
Mi head of a bull
Nu visual pun a bull leaper, a young man or a girl on feet hands feet
The a stylized tree of life
Mi-Nu-The on another Linear A tablet from Hagia Triada
http://www.seshat.ch/home/minos.jpg
Enter Magdalenian
MUC for bull, became Mi
NOS for mind, became Nu (Greek nous)
SAI for life, became The
MUC NOS SAI Mi No S Minos
MUC NOS SAI C NOS S Knossos
Baal rose as golden calf = morning sun from the tree of life, while the Stone
Age bull was the moon (Marie E.P. König). The bull leaper standing on his
or her feet (before the bull) hands (on the bull) and feet again (behind the
bull) symbolizes astronomy, the art of calculating cycles of celestial bodies.
And the tree of life says that astronomy was vital for the seafaring Minoans
(as it had been for navigating the Syrian desert).
A lunisolar calendar is encoded in the myth of Minotaur in the labyrinth
(Linear B da-pu-ri-to) of Knossos. A minotaur, half bull half man, was
already known in Ebla.
New idea: Ebla might perhaps go back to AC BLA, expanse of land with
water AC black BLA (inverse of white ALB), naming the fertile river
oasis for its 'black earth', parallel to misr 'black' that names Egypt as land
of the fertile river oasis. Ebla must have been equally fertile as the Nile
Valley.
How sad what happens in Syria now!
***
Ebla was inhabited from 4000 BC till 700 AD, and Crete already in Neolithic
times. The Early Bronze Age of Ebla began in 2700 BC, the Early Minoan period
somewhat before 2600 BC. Ebla was engaged in long-distance trading. I guess
they had an outpost in Crete, which grew and grew, and was much enlarged
when Sargon of Akkad (or Naram-Sin) destroyed the palace of Ebla in the 23rd
century BC, followed by marauding Amurrites.
Ebla was immensely rich. The kingdom might have extended as far as Damascus.
Ebla in the form of mu-nu-ti-um appears on a cuneiform document from 2200 BC.
Ugaritic has mnt. And New Ebla in the West would have been called Mi-Nu-The,
kingdom of Minos, name and title of every Minoan king, rendered much in the
same way in Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and B - as head of a bull for Mi,
visual pun of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and a strongly stylized
tree of life for The. The persistence of this ensemble of signs over a long period
of time speaks for its importance.
Apparently the Minoans abandoned cuneiforms and invented a hieroglyphic script
which was later on developed into Linear A. Minoan Crete, laboratory of early
writing.
The supreme weather god of the Hurrians was Teshup or Teshpak, the one of
the Semites Baal in the form of Haddu, mentioned as a-du on the Linear A tablet
Hagia Triada 95. Baal as Haddu was implored for rain. Who was Dadumatha,
she loved by the master a-du Haddu Baal?
She might have been the supreme Minoan goddess Britomartis, implored for rain
by the inscription on the altar stone of Mallia, deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth:
May the goddess let it rain.
So the cereals for Haddu and Dadumatha listed up on HT95 should mollify
him and her. Otherwise they might cause a drought, and Britomartis turn
into Lousia the Angry One, while Demeter-Elaia from Phigalia turned into
Black Demeter-Melaina who caused a famine, commemorated as Demeter
Eryns by Pausanias, Demeter as one of the Furies.
Derk Ohlenroth deciphered not only the Phaistos Disc and altar stone
inscription of Mallia but also the short inscription on a bronze double axe
from the cult cave Arkalochori in Central Crete: I belong to the goddess
Lousia. Three signs correspond to Phaistos Disc hieroglyphs, while one side
of the disc is devoted to Demeter-Elaia and her daughter Nyx who gave oracles.
All hangs together, centered in agriculture, from a time when people could
not just go a few blocks down to a supermarket and get everything they needed.
***
Pondering the etymology of labyrinth given as dapurito in Linear B led me
to a Sumerian myth of creation in a Babylonian version. The first people were
immortal and procreated. Ever more and more of them populated the earth
and made such a racket that Enlil could no longer sleep. The gods decided
to eliminate the human race. Enlil created a horrible monster called Labbu,
a giant snake. Labbu devoured most humans, and was such an awful beast
that it was feared by all gods. One of them succeeded in killing it, whereupon
its blood flew for several years. The mother-goddess was outraged because of
the almost complete extinction of humanity. Finally a compromise was reached.
The surviving humans were allowed to live on, but became mortal, so they
would no longer over-populate the world.
Labbu might account for laby- dapu-. Now for -rinth -rito. The closest match
is Greek rhytaer 'archer; guard, protector'. Dragons lived in caves. Many
big caves are labyrinths of gangways. A labyrinth might originally have been
such a cave guarded by an imaginary dragon - a mini-Labbu, as it were -
whose evil breath might have been a sulfuric gas emerging from a cleft in
the rock. Consider also Hebrew laba for lava.
Another man-eating monster inhabited the labyrinth of Knossos, Minotaur.
Actually, the myth of Minotaur encodes a lunisolar calendar, and the labyrinth
symbolizes the complicated astronomical calculations carried out in offices
of the labyrinthic palace of Knossos.
Maybe also the Babylonian myth of Labbu was concerned about time. As long
as people were immortal, time was of no importance. But then Labbu ended
their lives. And the final compromise: we are given a limited lifetime.
Let us make the best of it.
***
Daidalos (DAI for protected area) built a labyrinth for the bull-man
Minotaur (TOR for bull in motion). Every ninth year the monster demanded
seven virgins and seven young men. Theseus killed him and freed the victims.
Together they found a way out of the labyrinth following Ariadne's thread.
This myth encodes a complex and ingenious lunisolar calendar.
Minotaur of the double nature embodies two periods of time, 9 and 235
lunations or synodic months; king Minos 9 years; each of the seven virgins
and seven young men 19 days; and Theseus 19 years; while Ariadne's thread
were additive number sequences.
9 lunations of Minotaur counted in the 30 29 30 mode yield 266 days
19 days for each of the seven vigins and seven young men are again 266 days
- metaphorically speaking they give their lives for the monster
9 years of king Minos are seven regular years of 365 days plus two leap
years of 366 days, in all 3,287 days, or 173 periods of 19 days - the king
offered the young ones to Minotaur every 9th year
19 years of Theseus are 235 lunations - thus he overcame the 235 lunations
of Minotaur
One of Ariadne's threads was a special number sequence correlating lunations
(l) and years (y)
l/y 37/3 99/8 136/11 235/19 371/30
37/3 was used by the Celts (two years of 12 lunations plus one leap year of
13 lunations). 99/8 underlies the Lascaux calendar, and the dingir calendar of
Sumer which also includes Venus. 235/19 is present in the calendar of Knossos,
and 371/30 in the calendar of Mallia.
The Minoans believed in a giant subterranean bull causing earthquakes.
Lord Evans experienced a Cretan earthquake, heard the 'bull' bellow,
and found the metaphor adequate. Natural catastrophes were ascribed to
monsters of many guises, Labbu of Babylon a sea monster, serpent, dragon,
lion, all in one. What are now curious myths had once been philosophy.
Even science in the case of the calendar of Minotaur.
***
The lunisolar calendar of Mallia is encoded in the round stone kernos
in a corner of the royal court. Along the rim are 33 smaller cup marks
plus a bigger one. Count 11 days for each smaller bowl, and 2 or 3 more
days for the larger bowl, thus you get a regular year of 365 and an
occasional leap year of 366 days.
A Mallia week had 11 days and a month 33 days.
Count 19 lunations or synodic months in the 30 29 30 mode and you get
561 days, or 51 Mallia weeks of 11 days, or 17 Mallia months of 33 days.
Remember Ariadne's thread correlating lunations and years
37/7 99/8 136/11 235/19 371/30
235/19 was used for the Knossos calendar. Now let us look at 371/30
meaning that 371 lunations correspond to 30 years. Let us check this out.
Count 15 and 17 lunations in the 30 29 30 mode and you'll obtain
443 and 502 days respectively. Then carry out the following additions
17 15 17 15 17 or 17 32 49 64 81 lunations
502 443 502 443 502 443 502 or 502 945 1477 1890 2392 days
81 64 64 64 49 49 sum 371 lunations
2392 1890 1890 1890 1447 1447 sum 10956 days
371 lunations are 10,956 days (not even four hours less, mistake per
lunation about half a minute).
Now for days in 30 years. Draw up another additive number sequence
365/1 (plus 1461/4) 1826/5 3287/9 ... 9131/25
3,287 days for 19 years were used for the calendar of Minotaur. Let us
add 1,826 and 9,131 days for 5 and 25 days. Together we have 10,957 days
(not even seven hours more, mistake less than thirteen minutes per year).
A close match to the 10,956 days for 371 lunations.
371 lunations correspond to 10,956 days or 996 Mallia weeks or 332 Mallia
months. Add one leap day and you have 10,957 days for 30 years.
The Mallia calendar worked for a nice round number of 30 years.
Maybe the kernos represents a calendar sanctuary in form of a ceremonial
garden? connected with a mythical story about vegetation?
***
A famous and very beautiful fresco from the palace of Knossos
http://www.seshat.ch/home/europa1.jpg
shows a proud bull before a night blue background (rests of the original
color) and three human figures demonstrating the stages of bull leaping.
A girl takes him by the horns, a young man turns a somersault over him,
and a second girl who landed safely behind him raises her arms for
keeping balance, in the joy that she succeeded, and ready to catch
the young man when he comes down. All three figures and the bull
are shown in full action while hovering in the sky.
The Minoan sport of bull leaping symbolized Minoan astronomy,
the art of calculating celestial cycles. Look at the girl before the bull
and draw a horizontal line at her eye level --- the line will appear
as horizon, and the perfect arc of the upper curve of the bull' neck
as full moon rising above the horizon
http//www.seshat.ch/home/europa2.jpg
Magdalenian OC means right eye, inverse CO means attentive mind,
ORI means horizon, the permutation OIR means to watch the moon
rise above the horizon, AIR means to raise the arms in joy. These
words and meanings (mined in 2005/06) are a perfect match for
the girls in the freso
OIR OC CO she watches the moon rise over the horizon OIR
with open eyes OC and focused mind CO
AIR OC CO she raises her arms in joy AIR
with open eyes OC and focused mind CO
Minoan bull leaping was also a symbol of the human condition. AD TOR OC CO,
toward AD the bull in motion TOR with open eyes OC and focused mind CO
- facing the bull, taking him by the horns, coping with fate ...
AD TOR OC CO Mycenaean atoroqo Greek anthropos 'human being'.
OC CO oqo opos opsis - a phonetic shift allowing the asummption
OIR OC OC Europa
AIR OC CO Europa
Greek Europa means 'Far Looking One' or 'Wide Looking One'. Astronomers
watching the moon and observing the sky look far and wide.
The origin of Europa would then have been Minoan astronomy that came from
Ebla in Syria.
******
end of Mediterranean Bronze Age
Where did the Luvians come from? Let me propose a hypothesis based
on place names.
POL LAS Wilusa (W)Ilios Ilion (Homeric Troy)
POL means a fortified settlement (Greek polis Latin villa French ville),
and LAS a hill, or a mountain in what I call 'attention perspective':
a hill heightened by an awe and fear inspiring cyclopic wall. Homer's
Polyphem - a famous cyclops who resembled more a wooded mountain top
than a man who eats bread - symbolizes Troy, his one eye the acropolis
overlooking the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa that
provided protected shelter for 5,000 - 10,000 people.
TYR PAS Taruwisa Troy
TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, and PAS
everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me.
Troy dominated a crossing point of important tradeways (S-N and E-W),
and was protected from above by TYR SsEYR Sseus Zeus who ruled everywhere
PAS. According to Homer, Zeus and Athene had once been on the Trojan side.
KOD DhAG AS Hattusas (Hattushas)
KOD means tent, hut; several Sanskrit derivatives name strongholds. DhAG
means able, here a massive stronghold able to hold up all enemies (except
an inner usurpator who caused the fall of the mighty Hittite empire). And
AS means upward, up above. Together a really strong fortress on top of
a hill or mountain.
POL LAS named Athene as Pallas Athene.
Inverse LAS POL might have named the Luvian language, luwili
POL LAS Wilusa LAS POL luwili ?
POL Wil- LAS -lusa LAS lu- POL -wili
a language spoken by people residing in a palace on top of a hill or mountain
around 1600 BC ? how about Erzurum at the base of the Palandöken daglari
POL LAS DhAG Palandök- ??
Also the Hatti people or Hittites came a long way, from somewhere in the East
and/or North. Their last station before Hattusas (Hattushas) had been Nesa
Kültepe Kanish Kayseri.
***
Manfred Korfmann, late excavator of Troy, was convinced that the Trojans
had been Luvians.
The antagonist of Troy was Ahhiyawa (Akhiyawa or Achijawa) Achaia,
identified as the Peloponnese with Mycene. Its name could go back to
AChI AD DA, swelling river AChI plus the generic river formula AD DA for
water flowing toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills or mountains.
This would go along with AChI )EI or AChI LEi Achilles, comparing the
fiercest Greek warrior to a river tsunami, swelling water attacking with
the vehemence of a lion.
Arzawa has been located in Lydia, western Anatolia, and was previously called
Luwija, land of the Luvians. The origin of the name Arzawa might have been
ARC AD DA, again the polished river formula AD DA -awa, this time combined
with a bear ARC (originally a cave bear, then Greek arktos for bear).
German has bärenstark 'strong like a bear', and reissen 'rip, tear' for both
a predatory animal killing a prey, eine Beute reissen, and a torrential
river, ein reissender Fluss. If this etymology holds, also the Luvians
had been fierce warriors.
Now the question is: where did the Luvians come from? did they cross
the Dardanelles? or did they come a long way from the East? maybe passing
Erzurum and the Dalandöken daglari? moving and spreading in a wide arc
around Hittite territory? finally reaching and overtaking Troy? or just
blending in?
***
Achilles had been attacked by the waves of the river Scamander, a river
called Xanthos by the gods. Greek xanthos named all hues of copper ore,
yellow brown reddish, hence the river attacking Achilles was the Trojan
army, soldiers clad in copper and bronze armaments. And this confirms
AChI )EI or AChI LEI Achilles, comparing the fierce warrior to a river
tsunami striking with the vehemence of a lion - Achilles met his equal.
Eponymous Tiryns, hero of the Phaistos Disc, Lord Laertes in Homer’s
Odyssey, was the mythological father of Odysseus whose name might go
back to AD DA SAI, again the generic river formula AD DA but now
followed by SAI for life, together life along rivers, or life as river in
the sense of the title of a French film: La vie est une longue fleuve
tranquille, life is a long and tranquil river. But not always! A river can
swell and flood a plain. Odysseus - 'if there ever was such a man’
(Homer) - got angry, Greek odyssomai ‘be angry’.
What was the reason of his anger? The Mycenaean tin came from
Central Asia and was bound to pass the Dardanelles where the Trojans
laid hands on the precious cargo - abducting Helen of the white arms,
Homeric personification of tin, her husband xanthos Menelaos the
symbol of copper, and their daughter lovely Hermione who resembled
golden Aphrodite the symbol of bronze, alloy of copper and tin,
of a golden shine when freshly cast. Abducting beautiful Helen means
confiscating tin destined for Mycenae which led to a series of incidents
that culminated in the Trojan War.
Polyphem is the Homeric symbol of Troy VIIa, his one eye the acropolis
overlooking the river plain, his body downtown Troy, his cave the harbor
in the Besik bay, his goats and sheep foreign ships, and their milk high fees
foreign sailors had to pay for waiting in the harbor until a favorable wind
came up.
The Greek ships were horses, resting in the mouthing area of the Simois
and Scamander, mosquito infested swamps explaining the malaria episode
in the Iliad.
The war dragged on. Then wily Odysseus had an idea. He let a seemingly
abandoned ship drift along the Aegean shore and pass the Besik bay.
The guards of the harbor hauled it in - whereupon hidden Achaean soldier
leapt out and took the guards by surprise. The castel, some three kilometers
away, was alarmed. The Trojan army sped to the harbor. Meanwhile
Achaean archers hiding near the stronghold shot fire arrows over the
cyclopic wall and burned down the acropolis - blinding Polyphem,
as it were.
Poseidon and Apollo got so angry that they made the Simois and Scarmander
swell and sweep away all vestiges of the Greek camps, as related in the middle
of the Iliad, end of book 12.
***
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Nov 18, 2019, 8:26:15 AM11/18/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 3:22:04 PM UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Ag
Crap and spam.
> origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Ag
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 18, 2019, 8:42:28 AM11/18/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:26:15 PM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> Crap and spam.
Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
attacking women. Then he joined sci.lang in early 2006 and attacked
me out of the blue. May my head burst, he wrote in a stilted German,
the sooner the more betterer. He applied what I call the strategy
of the weak dog: find a weaker dog than yourself, bite him and hope
to climb the social ladder. Only that I am no weak dog. Ever since
he follows me around, commanding a shadow army of braying aliasses.
He attacks also others under different names in the same thread.
One of his pseudonyms had been Der psychopathsiche Entdärmer (sic)
'the psychopathic eviscerator'. Using his real name he wrote that
he has plenty ideas of what he could do to me with a knife, alas,
the law still considers me a human being with rights. He tried and
tries everything to obstruct my work and ruin my threads. About my
brief summary of Homer's Odyssey, work of decades, he bragged that
he could write such a piece within a quarter of an hour - only that
we never see anything like it from him. Once he told me in all earnest
that I can't understand the epic when I read the Greek original,
I must read the Finnish translation! A barren mind paired with
a burning ambition results in craving power. He must govern sci.lang
with a little textbook half-knowledge. He must make the rules.
Unable of arguing on the topic level he operates most of the time
on meta-levels and drops verdicts from above, not even knowing
what meta-level means, claiming that I call my work a meta-level,
proudly parading his exemplary typeryys.
> Crap and spam.
Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
attacking women. Then he joined sci.lang in early 2006 and attacked
me out of the blue. May my head burst, he wrote in a stilted German,
the sooner the more betterer. He applied what I call the strategy
of the weak dog: find a weaker dog than yourself, bite him and hope
to climb the social ladder. Only that I am no weak dog. Ever since
he follows me around, commanding a shadow army of braying aliasses.
He attacks also others under different names in the same thread.
One of his pseudonyms had been Der psychopathsiche Entdärmer (sic)
'the psychopathic eviscerator'. Using his real name he wrote that
he has plenty ideas of what he could do to me with a knife, alas,
the law still considers me a human being with rights. He tried and
tries everything to obstruct my work and ruin my threads. About my
brief summary of Homer's Odyssey, work of decades, he bragged that
he could write such a piece within a quarter of an hour - only that
we never see anything like it from him. Once he told me in all earnest
that I can't understand the epic when I read the Greek original,
I must read the Finnish translation! A barren mind paired with
a burning ambition results in craving power. He must govern sci.lang
with a little textbook half-knowledge. He must make the rules.
Unable of arguing on the topic level he operates most of the time
on meta-levels and drops verdicts from above, not even knowing
what meta-level means, claiming that I call my work a meta-level,
proudly parading his exemplary typeryys.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 18, 2019, 10:23:28 AM11/18/19
to
Le lundi 18 novembre 2019 14:22:04 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Age
>
> ***
>
> Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake
> of Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed
> that the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic at a conference) and Robert
> Stieglitz and Jan Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enume-
> ration of cereals:
Up to here, it's true.
> origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Age
>
> ***
>
> Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake
> of Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed
> that the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic at a conference) and Robert
> Stieglitz and Jan Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enume-
> ration of cereals:
Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is indeed a list of staples and cereals under their Semitic names.
on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal,
> later on identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
> Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal).
Most interesting for
> me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
> of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life for The ...
mi-nu-te probably means "measurements".
>
> The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon
> recognized Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.
> Ugaritic has d-d-m-sh for the goddess, and Yigael Yadin found her name
> in the form of d-d-y-m-sh on a Hebrew seal from Tell Djemmeh (1960).
> Hence the final syllable was pronounced tha, as in English (ta and tha are
> given by the same sign, and Hinz remarks that Linear A and B were botched
> scripts). We have then ma-tha, she 'loved by matha'. Matha is known from
> Sinai inscriptions (published by Hinz in a journal). Semitic matha means
> 'chief, lord, master'. Dadumatha was 'loved by the master' a-du Haddu Baal
> (later on young god, Minoan Zeus). The language of Linear A tablet Hagia
> Triada 95 is Northwest Semitic, as 'predicted' by Gordon.
>
> The word mi-nu-te means 'wheat from mu-nu-ti-um Ugaritic mnt' better
> known as Ebla in Syria (some sixty kilometers south of Aleppo), by then
> a fertile river oasis.
>
> Follows my development.
Expect crap...
>
> ***
>
> Ebla was inhabited from 4000 BC till 700 AD,
and Crete already in Neolithic
> times. The Early Bronze Age of Ebla began in 2700 BC, the Early Minoan period
> somewhat before 2600 BC. Ebla was engaged in long-distance trading. I guess
> they had an outpost in Crete, which grew and grew, and was much enlarged
> when Sargon of Akkad (or Naram-Sin) destroyed the palace of Ebla in the 23rd
> century BC, followed by marauding Amurrites.
>
> Ebla was immensely rich. The kingdom might have extended as far as Damascus.
> Ebla in the form of mu-nu-ti-um appears on a cuneiform document from 2200 BC.
> Ugaritic has mnt. And New Ebla in the West would have been called Mi-Nu-The,
> kingdom of Minos, name and title of every Minoan king, rendered much in the
> same way in Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and B - as head of a bull for Mi,
> visual pun of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and a strongly stylized
> tree of life for The. The persistence of this ensemble of signs over a long period
> of time speaks for its importance.
>
> Apparently the Minoans abandoned cuneiforms and invented a hieroglyphic script
> which was later on developed into Linear A. Minoan Crete, laboratory of early
> writing.
>
> The supreme weather god of the Hurrians was Teshup or Teshpak, the one of
> the Semites Baal in the form of Haddu, mentioned as a-du on the Linear A tablet
> Hagia Triada 95. Baal as Haddu was implored for rain. Who was Dadumatha,
> she loved by the master a-du Haddu Baal?
>
> She might have been the supreme Minoan goddess Britomartis, implored for rain
> by the inscription on the altar stone of Mallia, deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth:
> May the goddess let it rain.
>
> So the cereals for Haddu and Dadumatha listed up on HT95 should mollify
> him and her. Otherwise they might cause a drought, and Britomartis turn
> into Lousia the Angry One, while Demeter-Elaia from Phigalia turned into
> Black Demeter-Melaina who caused a famine, commemorated as Demeter
>
> Eryns by Pausanias, Demeter as one of the Furies.
>
> Derk Ohlenroth deciphered not only the Phaistos Disc and altar stone
> inscription of Mallia but also the short inscription on a bronze double axe
> from the cult cave Arkalochori in Central Crete: I belong to the goddess
> Lousia. Three signs correspond to Phaistos Disc hieroglyphs, while one side
> of the disc is devoted to Demeter-Elaia and her daughter Nyx who gave oracles.
>
> All hangs together, centered in agriculture, from a time when people could
> not just go a few blocks down to a supermarket and get everything they needed.
>
> ***
>
> Pondering the etymology of labyrinth given as dapurito in Linear B led me
> to a Sumerian myth of creation in a Babylonian version. The first people were
> immortal and procreated. Ever more and more of them populated the earth
> and made such a racket that Enlil could no longer sleep. The gods decided
> to eliminate the human race. Enlil created a horrible monster called Labbu,
> a giant snake. Labbu devoured most humans, and was such an awful beast
> that it was feared by all gods. One of them succeeded in killing it, whereupon
> its blood flew for several years. The mother-goddess was outraged because of
> the almost complete extinction of humanity. Finally a compromise was reached.
> The surviving humans were allowed to live on, but became mortal, so they
> would no longer over-populate the world.
>
> Labbu might account for laby- dapu-. Now for -rinth -rito. The closest match
> is Greek rhytaer 'archer; guard, protector'. Dragons lived in caves. Many
> big caves are labyrinths of gangways. A labyrinth might originally have been
> such a cave guarded by an imaginary dragon - a mini-Labbu, as it were -
> whose evil breath might have been a sulfuric gas emerging from a cleft in
> the rock. Consider also Hebrew laba for lava.
>
> Another man-eating monster inhabited the labyrinth of Knossos, Minotaur.
>
> Actually, the myth of Minotaur encodes a lunisolar calendar, and the labyrinth
> symbolizes the complicated astronomical calculations carried out in offices
> of the labyrinthic palace of Knossos.
>
> Maybe also the Babylonian myth of Labbu was concerned about time. As long
> as people were immortal, time was of no importance. But then Labbu ended
> their lives. And the final compromise: we are given a limited lifetime.
>
> Let us make the best of it.
[repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Nov 18, 2019, 11:44:08 AM11/18/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 3:42:28 PM UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:26:15 PM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>
> > Crap and spam.
>
>
> Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
> history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
> attacking women
Do tell me how this relates to my knowledge of language, languages and linguistics. Oh, I know - NOT AT ALL.
> On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:26:15 PM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>
> > Crap and spam.
>
>
> Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
> history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
> attacking women
You have a long history of filling sci.lang with worthless spam, and you are abysmally uncivilized.
António Marques
Nov 18, 2019, 2:56:44 PM11/18/19
to
attacking women' sentence. I mean, is there even a soc.men? If so, what's
expected to appear there? What would an 'ugly message', 'attacking women'
be in that context? This is the kind of sentence you can say once, but
repeated it looks weird.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 18, 2019, 3:04:37 PM11/18/19
to
disputing, except that disputing it detracts from the time he can
devote to his "work".
--
athel
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 19, 2019, 3:21:05 AM11/19/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 4:23:28 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
A. Fou can't post his translation of HT95, nor any other translation of
>
> [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
a Linear A tablet. His way of behaving deserves my comment on him.
Arnaud Fournet is an eerie wiedergänger of my first longtime online stalker:
Jean Faucounau alias grapheus, Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer,
located the language of the disc in southwestern Anatolia, never posted
his translation, stalked me from 2001-05, used stereotyped SHOUTING
-- Arnaud Fournet alias yangg, Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer,
locates the language of the disc in southeastern Anatolia, never posts
his translation, stalked me from ca. 2010-14, uses stereotyped scatology.
Are there further Frenchmen and Phaistos Disc decipherers in line
waiting to stalk me and denigrate Derk Ohlenroth? My astrologer had
a long look into her Fine Magic Crystal Ball (tradem.reg.) and finally
nodded: Martin Feullemille alias glypho, locates the language of the
disc in the middle of southern Anatolia ... Pauv' type, wasting his
time on a prize he lost before he even started.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 19, 2019, 3:23:47 AM11/19/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 9:04:37 PM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> This is all just fantasy (like everything else he writes). Not worth
> disputing, except that disputing it detracts from the time he can
> devote to his "work".
>
Sock-puppet of Panu Petteri Höglund the Clueless, unable to focus on one
>
> This is all just fantasy (like everything else he writes). Not worth
> disputing, except that disputing it detracts from the time he can
> devote to his "work".
>
single alleged blunder of mine, just only ever operating on meta-levels,
imp-as-otent can be.
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Nov 19, 2019, 4:36:01 AM11/19/19
to
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:21:05 AM UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 4:23:28 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
>
> A. Fou can't post his translation of HT95, nor any other translation of
> a Linear A tablet. His way of behaving deserves my comment on him.
>
> Arnaud Fournet is an eerie wiedergänger of my first longtime online stalker:
I don't know who this Faucounaux is, but it is obvious that questioning your "work" on solid scholarly grounds is in your eyes "stalking".
> On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 4:23:28 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
>
> A. Fou can't post his translation of HT95, nor any other translation of
> a Linear A tablet. His way of behaving deserves my comment on him.
>
> Arnaud Fournet is an eerie wiedergänger of my first longtime online stalker:
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Nov 19, 2019, 4:37:13 AM11/19/19
to
- telling them they are my sock-puppets,
- insulting them personally?
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 19, 2019, 5:12:30 AM11/19/19
to
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 19, 2019, 5:13:56 AM11/19/19
to
Le mardi 19 novembre 2019 10:36:01 UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski a écrit :
> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:21:05 AM UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 4:23:28 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > >
> > > [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
> >
> > A. Fou can't post his translation of HT95, nor any other translation of
> > a Linear A tablet.
This is obviously false. I explained Ko Za 1.
> > On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 4:23:28 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > >
> > > [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
> >
> > A. Fou can't post his translation of HT95, nor any other translation of
> > a Linear A tablet.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 19, 2019, 5:32:38 AM11/19/19
to
Margulis's work, based a radio programme he had listened to about her,
to learn that I had been the invited editor of a special issue of a
journal commemorating her classic paper of 1967. That didn't stop him
continuing to regard himself as the expert. I doubt whether he has even
read the 1967 paper or could give a full reference to it: as he would
put it, "in 1967 an American biologist proposed a theory of symbiosis".
Would he even know that much? For example, would he know what name she
used as author in 1967 (hint: it's not Margulis)?
--
athel
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 19, 2019, 7:54:15 AM11/19/19
to
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:13:56 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> This is obviously false. I explained Ko Za 1.
You explained details, but you gave no translation.
>
> This is obviously false. I explained Ko Za 1.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 19, 2019, 7:59:15 AM11/19/19
to
in Zurich. She mentioned the termite eating wood, however, the
termite can't digest ligneum, for that purpose it has bacteria
in the guts that do the work. Now, she asked with her strong voice,
who is the termite, and who the bacteria? She pleads for symbiosis
as driver of evolution equally important as Darwinian concurrence
And she is no romantic fool, considering the book she co-authored,
wherein the two authors strip the human brain down to the reptile
brain and further down the line.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 19, 2019, 8:27:15 AM11/19/19
to
Can't you read, idiot?
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 19, 2019, 9:17:56 AM11/19/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:56:44 PM UTC-5, António Marques wrote:
> I've grown quite fond of the 'once[,] he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
> attacking women' sentence. I mean, is there even a soc.men? If so, what's
> expected to appear there? What would an 'ugly message', 'attacking women'
> be in that context? This is the kind of sentence you can say once, but
> repeated it looks weird.
Messages from newsgroups called "soc.culture.GN" used to leak out once in
> I've grown quite fond of the 'once[,] he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
> attacking women' sentence. I mean, is there even a soc.men? If so, what's
> expected to appear there? What would an 'ugly message', 'attacking women'
> be in that context? This is the kind of sentence you can say once, but
> repeated it looks weird.
a while ("GN" = 'geographic name'). They were newsgroups for spewing hatred
against ethnic groups other than those associated with that GN. They seem
to have decamped to more trendy platforms), so it wouldn't be surprising
if "soc.men" was a forerunner of the "InCel" -- 'involuntary celibate' --
movement (for males who are unable to attract females for mating purposes).
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 19, 2019, 9:21:34 AM11/19/19
to
name she went by at the time. You also seem to think she is still alive.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 19, 2019, 9:24:16 AM11/19/19
to
crackpots -- something we saw very clearly in Franz's attacks on Pete
Olcott.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 19, 2019, 9:25:19 AM11/19/19
to
the "tree" metaphor to explain developments in post-Darwininan evolution
at the sub-cellular level.
His principal character is Carl Woese. Unfortunately he never gives the
pronunciation of the name, and guesses are stymied by the fact that the
second time it occurs, it's divided between lines as Wo-ese. (Ain't
computers grand?)
He does describe Mrs. Margulis's somewhat chaotic personal life, pointing
out that her famous-named collaborator on several volumes is her son.
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 19, 2019, 9:27:12 AM11/19/19
to
It sounds like nothing more than an analogy -- the only level on
which Franz can operate.
António Marques
Nov 19, 2019, 1:44:41 PM11/19/19
to
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Nov 20, 2019, 3:25:03 AM11/20/19
to
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 20, 2019, 3:34:31 AM11/20/19
to
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:27:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Gloss of each line is a translation, you Möngi.
> Can't you read, idiot?
(line 1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal
>
> Gloss of each line is a translation, you Möngi.
> Can't you read, idiot?
(line 2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;
(line 3) barley 20; emmer
(line 4) 10; oat 10; roasted
(line 5) grains 7
Reading Mi-Nu-T(h)e as 'measure' in your way one obtains a *moronic*
translation
Dadumata (gets
millet 10 (measures)
* measure 10 (measures) *
barley 20 (measures)
emmer 10 (measures)
oat 10 (measures)
roasted grains 7 (measures)
That is why I ask for a readable translation, not just single words.
Gallia divisa est in partes tres: Arnausea, Fournetium, Scatalogibusque.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 20, 2019, 4:32:46 AM11/20/19
to
Le mercredi 20 novembre 2019 09:34:31 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:27:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Gloss of each line is a translation, you Möngi.
> > Can't you read, idiot?
>
>
> (line 1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal
>
> (line 2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;
>
> (line 3) barley 20; emmer
>
> (line 4) 10; oat 10; roasted
>
> (line 5) grains 7
>
>
> Reading Mi-Nu-T(h)e as 'measure' in your way one obtains a *moronic*
> translation
>
> Dadumata (gets
> millet 10 (measures)
> * measure 10 (measures) *
> barley 20 (measures)
> emmer 10 (measures)
> oat 10 (measures)
> roasted grains 7 (measures)
>
> That is why I ask for a readable translation, not just single words.
yes, I was suspecting that situation.
> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:27:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Gloss of each line is a translation, you Möngi.
> > Can't you read, idiot?
>
>
> (line 1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal
>
> (line 2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;
>
> (line 3) barley 20; emmer
>
> (line 4) 10; oat 10; roasted
>
> (line 5) grains 7
>
>
> Reading Mi-Nu-T(h)e as 'measure' in your way one obtains a *moronic*
> translation
>
> Dadumata (gets
> millet 10 (measures)
> * measure 10 (measures) *
> barley 20 (measures)
> emmer 10 (measures)
> oat 10 (measures)
> roasted grains 7 (measures)
>
> That is why I ask for a readable translation, not just single words.
You're asking to invent a procustean "translation", instead of just reading what the tablet is: namely, a list of staples with figures.
Remember Procustes ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 20, 2019, 6:49:04 AM11/20/19
to
nor of another Linear A tablet. How long will that silly game go on?
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Nov 20, 2019, 7:01:21 AM11/20/19
to
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 20, 2019, 7:05:47 AM11/20/19
to
I have provided the objective analysis of what the accountancy tablets like Haghia Triada 95 stand for.
There's nothing more to provide.
Yes, your silly game has gone on too long.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 20, 2019, 7:26:41 AM11/20/19
to
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 1:05:47 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> What you call "translation" is your gaggithaleresque fanciful interpretation of actual tablets.
> I have provided the objective analysis of what the accountancy tablets like Haghia Triada 95 stand for.
> There's nothing more to provide.
> Yes, your silly game has gone on too long.
You are a fine wiedergänger of Marie Jean Faoucounau alias grapheus alias
>
> What you call "translation" is your gaggithaleresque fanciful interpretation of actual tablets.
> I have provided the objective analysis of what the accountancy tablets like Haghia Triada 95 stand for.
> There's nothing more to provide.
> Yes, your silly game has gone on too long.
RoseMarie, even more effective, as you replace his stereotyped SHOUTING
by stereotyped scatology.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 20, 2019, 7:36:21 AM11/20/19
to
Your posts on sci.lang are a mixture of fanciful garbage and irrelevant meta-babble.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 21, 2019, 2:16:04 AM11/21/19
to
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 1:36:21 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Everybody can see that you (=Franz) have nothing serious to say.
> Your posts on sci.lang are a mixture of fanciful garbage and irrelevant meta-babble.
No, the meta-babble is yours, you just can't post a translation of a Linear A
>
> Everybody can see that you (=Franz) have nothing serious to say.
> Your posts on sci.lang are a mixture of fanciful garbage and irrelevant meta-babble.
tablet, HT95 or another one, you can't argue on the topic level, also you
must always escape to a meta-level and drop verdicts from above, sad clone
of the sad clown Faucounau.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 21, 2019, 3:03:28 AM11/21/19
to
Everybody can see that.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 21, 2019, 3:08:28 AM11/21/19
to
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 9:03:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I have posted two analyses of LinearA tablets.
> Everybody can see that.
But not a translation, a readable translation which is the real test of
>
> I have posted two analyses of LinearA tablets.
> Everybody can see that.
an alleged decipherment. You indulge in details but are unable of giving
a synopsis.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 21, 2019, 3:21:27 AM11/21/19
to
LinearA does not need to be deciphered, the issue is more to determine which language(s) are there and what the tablets are about.
How do you provide a readable translation of Bahnhof's schedules, you retarded Möngi??
Can't you see that accountancy tablets and train schedules are not meant to be a fluid text??
HT 95+149. (on a tablet) list of cereals (Van Soesbergen tome 2–1, pp. 150–51)
Line a.1
da-du-ma-ta => Dadum-atta ‘Hurrian Person name: Father loves (him)’
[it's unclear if this person is a giver, a receiver or a scribe]
GRA => ‘list of cereals’
Line 2
da-me 10 => (unclear) √dm (?) ‘some kind of juice’
mi-nu-te 10 => (?) ‘peas’ or √mnw *mīnūte ‘measures’
Line 3
sa-ru 20 => √śˁr *saˁru ‘barley’
ku-ni-su 10 => √knt *kunīt_u ‘emmer wheat’, Akkadian kunšu, kunāšu
Line 4
di-de-ru 10 => √ddr *dideru ‘oats’, Akkadian dišarru ‘wild oats’
[note that Semitic *d_ is rendered by a stop]
Line 5
qe-ra2-u 7 => √qly *qelayu ‘roasted (cereals)’, Akkadian qalû
Line 6 [vacat]
A perfectly ordinary accountancy tablet, as most Linear A (or B) tablets.
Ko Za 1
First, it should be noted that Ko Za 1 belongs to a set of stereotyped inscriptions found on libation bowls. They differ in the presence or absence of some words, but on the whole, they all follow the same pattern. There are about 20 such inscriptions exhibiting a number of variants with different lengths.
Next, two pairs of signs have debatable readings.
The first pair is ja / ba, both of which are squares with two horizontal lines inside the square. As a rule, the reading ba is to be preferred.
The second pair is i / se both of which look like a four-tooth fork, with the teeth at the top of the sign. As a rule, the reading se is to be preferred.
Here, on account of the morphology of Hurrian, 301 is to be read niw.
So as a first step, we can segment:
attaini- "father"
-(iwwa)- "my"
-ba Dative case-marker
tu-ru-sa "virile"
du-pu-re "strong"
both seem to be used as adverbials, in Instrumental case,
se-da-a "curse", probably a Gerundive "cursing"
u-na- "comes"
-ka-na-si "child", std Hurrian is han-, the word seems to be in Genitive case.
the segmentation of u-na-ka-na-si in two words is supported by the fact some other inscriptions are in plural u-na-ra = std Hurrian una-lla.
Here, the verb un- "to come" is singular.
the word a-bi "head" is missing in this inscription but is present elsewhere.
se-pi-na-ma "conjuring", from Semitic wasapu, with mobile w-, a borrowing
si-ru-te, is probably siruste Gerundive = "confirming"
So these inscriptions on Libation bowls found in mountain top sanctuaries are basically formulas of curse, conjuration and confirmation.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 21, 2019, 7:36:10 AM11/21/19
to
from supermarket on 4th November:
> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> TOMME NOIRE 2.46€
> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> BANANE 1.47€
> OUTILLAGE 10.00€
> TOTAL A REGLER (6) 23.71€
How would you convert that into a readable narrative? If something's
just a list then that's all it is: there is no narrative associated
with it.
--
athel
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 22, 2019, 3:33:14 AM11/22/19
to
successful decipherment. As for the language of the Minoans, Cyrus H.
Gordon solved the problem long ago. He recognized lists of items,
often ended by ku-ro. But since Minoan and Eblaite used the same sign
for R and L, kuro can also be read a kulo, and this reminded Gordon
of Arabic kullu 'sum'. From then on he was convinced that Minoan is
a Semitic language, and proposed his hypothesis at a symposium in London
in the year 1973, forty-six years ago. And was punished panushed with
icy silence. Only Robert Stieglitz and Jan Best followed him, and then
Walter Hinz in their wake succeeded in deciphering and _translating_
Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95. A successful decipherment can be
rendered as a readable translation, with additions in brackets,
like Dadumatha (gets) and Adu (Haddu Baal) (gets), or rather their
priestesses and priests get. When an Englishman reads for example
20 lb. he automatically reads 20 pounds. Analogously we have to render
context of a far bygone time with additions. The best is to render
such a text in the original, with a transliteration, with a literal
translation, and with a readable translation. Walther Hinz does that
in the case of HT95, and Derk Ohlenroth does that with the Phaistos Disc.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 22, 2019, 3:38:34 AM11/22/19
to
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 1:36:10 PM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Here's a test case for you, Franz. This is a list of items I bought
> from supermarket on 4th November:
>
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > TOMME NOIRE 2.46€
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > BANANE 1.47€
> > OUTILLAGE 10.00€
> > TOTAL A REGLER (6) 23.71€
>
> How would you convert that into a readable narrative? If something's
> just a list then that's all it is: there is no narrative associated
> with it.
>
Athel Cornish Bowden, sock-puppet of Panu Petteri Höglund bought
>
> Here's a test case for you, Franz. This is a list of items I bought
> from supermarket on 4th November:
>
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > TOMME NOIRE 2.46€
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > BANANE 1.47€
> > OUTILLAGE 10.00€
> > TOTAL A REGLER (6) 23.71€
>
> How would you convert that into a readable narrative? If something's
> just a list then that's all it is: there is no narrative associated
> with it.
>
Fine soup sellery six tons
fine soup sellery another six tons
black cheese
fine soup sellery again six tons
one banana
and tools for handling the 18 tons of soup sellery
for a modest and reasonable price of only 2371 euros
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 22, 2019, 4:31:28 AM11/22/19
to
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 22, 2019, 4:38:42 AM11/22/19
to
as your pretended translations of the Phaistos Disk. Even if it were
accurate, how would it help to understand the list?
For your information, JBON doesn't mean fine; SUP doesn't mean soup;
-SEL doesn't mean celery (let alone "sellery", whatever that may be);
6T doesn't mean 6 tons; TOMME NOIRE doesn't exactly mean black cheese,
as only the coating of Pyrenées cheese is black, the cheese itself
being almost white; BANANE doesn't (in this context) mean one banana;
the words you've added after "tools" are just fantasy (like the
fantasies we're are used to in your musings about "Magdalenian");
23.71€ doesn't mean 2371 euros.
This has been a useful exercise, as everything in your translation is
nonsense, much like everything else you write. If you can't understand
a modern supermarket bill, how can you expect to understand the
Phaistos Disk?
--
athel
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 22, 2019, 4:44:38 AM11/22/19
to
you should know Magdalenian can solve everything. ;):)
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 22, 2019, 4:05:08 PM11/22/19
to
>> On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 1:36:10 PM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> Here's a test case for you, Franz. This is a list of items I bought>
>>> from supermarket on 4th November:
>>>
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> TOMME NOIRE 2.46€
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> BANANE 1.47€
>>>> OUTILLAGE 10.00€
>>>> TOTAL A REGLER (6) 23.71€
>>>
>>> How would you convert that into a readable narrative? If something's>
>>> just a list then that's all it is: there is no narrative associated>
>>> with it.
>On 2019-11-22 08:38:32 +0000, Franz Gnaedinger said:
>> Athel Cornish Bowden, sock-puppet of Panu Petteri Höglund bought
>>
>> Fine soup sellery six tons
>> fine soup sellery another six tons
>> black cheese
>> fine soup sellery again six tons
>> one banana
>> and tools for handling the 18 tons of soup sellery
>> for a modest and reasonable price of only 2371 euros
Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:38:39 +0100: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> Here's a test case for you, Franz. This is a list of items I bought>
>>> from supermarket on 4th November:
>>>
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> TOMME NOIRE 2.46€
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> BANANE 1.47€
>>>> OUTILLAGE 10.00€
>>>> TOTAL A REGLER (6) 23.71€
>>>
>>> How would you convert that into a readable narrative? If something's>
>>> just a list then that's all it is: there is no narrative associated>
>>> with it.
>On 2019-11-22 08:38:32 +0000, Franz Gnaedinger said:
>> Athel Cornish Bowden, sock-puppet of Panu Petteri Höglund bought
>>
>> Fine soup sellery six tons
>> fine soup sellery another six tons
>> black cheese
>> fine soup sellery again six tons
>> one banana
>> and tools for handling the 18 tons of soup sellery
>> for a modest and reasonable price of only 2371 euros
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>Setting aside the misspellings, your "translation" makes as much sense
>as your pretended translations of the Phaistos Disk. Even if it were
>accurate, how would it help to understand the list?
>
>For your information, JBON doesn't mean fine; SUP doesn't mean soup;
>-SEL doesn't mean celery (let alone "sellery", whatever that may be);
>6T doesn't mean 6 tons; TOMME NOIRE doesn't exactly mean black cheese,
>as only the coating of Pyrenées cheese is black, the cheese itself
>being almost white; BANANE doesn't (in this context) mean one banana;
>the words you've added after "tools" are just fantasy (like the
>fantasies we're are used to in your musings about "Magdalenian");
>23.71€ doesn't mean 2371 euros.
Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>as your pretended translations of the Phaistos Disk. Even if it were
>accurate, how would it help to understand the list?
>
>For your information, JBON doesn't mean fine; SUP doesn't mean soup;
>-SEL doesn't mean celery (let alone "sellery", whatever that may be);
>6T doesn't mean 6 tons; TOMME NOIRE doesn't exactly mean black cheese,
>as only the coating of Pyrenées cheese is black, the cheese itself
>being almost white; BANANE doesn't (in this context) mean one banana;
>the words you've added after "tools" are just fantasy (like the
>fantasies we're are used to in your musings about "Magdalenian");
>23.71€ doesn't mean 2371 euros.
slices).
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 22, 2019, 4:16:15 PM11/22/19
to
António Marques
Nov 22, 2019, 4:22:04 PM11/22/19
to
aren't readable translations.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 22, 2019, 4:44:14 PM11/22/19
to
> six tranches (six
> slices).
--
António Marques
Nov 22, 2019, 5:13:11 PM11/22/19
to
>
>> six tranches (six
>> slices).
>
>
Daud Deden
Nov 22, 2019, 5:48:54 PM11/22/19
to
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 23, 2019, 2:34:38 AM11/23/19
to
Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
A tranche is not a steak.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 23, 2019, 3:17:13 AM11/23/19
to
Concrete Age had been a two-legged furless mega-panda. Why a panda? because
of his preference for one single greenery, soup celary, apart from an occa-
sional banana. Why a mega-panda? because of the huge amounts of soup celary
he consumed. Actually, he can or must be subsumed under the human species.
Why a human being? because he used a language, if a strange French dialect.
Why a biped? because he used tools. Why furless? he cooked his tons of
fine soup celary, thus getting back the warmth he lost because of having
no fur. Ain't science marvelous? (From a lesson held by Prof. Leni at the
University of Lagany on Mars in 7129 AD)
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 23, 2019, 3:27:03 AM11/23/19
to
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?
I render what he wrotes, including the ku-ro kulo kullu 'sum' story.
>
> Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?
Other scholars than you have no qualms rendering a decipherment also in the
form of a readable translation, for example the Hurrian stone tablet inscription
of a lion peg, ca. 2300 - 2159 BC (Art of the First Cieties, Metropolitan
Museum of Art)
Tishatal, ruler (endan) of Urkesh,
has built a temple for the god Nergal.
This temple, may the god Lubadag protect [it],
may Lubadag destroy [him]; may his god
not listen to his prayer. May the Lady of Nagar,
Shimiga (the sun god), and the storm god
[curse ten thousand times] the one
who would destroy it.
A banning formula of a similar archaic power as the one along the Tiryns
disc of the Phaistos Disc as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 23, 2019, 4:08:16 AM11/23/19
to
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 23, 2019, 4:09:32 AM11/23/19
to
than you are at linguistics.
--
athel
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 23, 2019, 4:11:53 AM11/23/19
to
Le samedi 23 novembre 2019 09:27:03 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?
>
> I render what he wrotes, including the ku-ro kulo kullu 'sum' story.
I'm interested to know what Hinz writes, not your own "rendition" of it.
> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?
>
> I render what he wrotes, including the ku-ro kulo kullu 'sum' story.
> Other scholars than you have no qualms rendering a decipherment also in the
> form of a readable translation, for example the Hurrian stone tablet inscription
> of a lion peg, ca. 2300 - 2159 BC (Art of the First Cieties, Metropolitan
> Museum of Art)
Whereas HT 95 is visibly and obviously an accountancy tablet.
>
> Tishatal, ruler (endan) of Urkesh,
> has built a temple for the god Nergal.
Nergal is an invented reading that does not correspond to the signs.
> This temple, may the god Lubadag protect [it],
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 23, 2019, 5:38:15 AM11/23/19
to
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:11:53 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I'm interested to know what Hinz writes, not your own "rendition" of it.
I send you a fotocopy if you tell me your address via e-mail.
>
> I'm interested to know what Hinz writes, not your own "rendition" of it.
> yes, but this item is not an accountancy tablet, visibly and obviously.
> Whereas HT 95 is visibly and obviously an accountancy tablet.
>
> It's not Nergal, but rather Pirig-gal "the Great Lioness", a war goddess.
> Nergal is an invented reading that does not correspond to the signs.
I render faithfully the translation given in the catalogue mentioned above.
> Nergal is an invented reading that does not correspond to the signs.
> You missed one clause here: Whoever destroys the temple,
Here is the combined information Hinz gives on HT95, side A followed by side B
(line A1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal
(line A2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;
(line A3) barley 20; emmer
(line A4) 10; oat 10; roasted
(line A5) grains 7
(line B1) Adu or Haddu (gets)
(line B2) barley 10 (measures); wheat from Mi
(line B3) Nu The 10 (measures); emmer
(line B4) 10 (measures); oat 10 (measures); roasted
(line B5) grain 10 (measures, a delicacy)
In the running text he explains every word, barley, wheat from Ebla,
emmer, oat, roasted grains - each of these terms a Semitic word.
A measure might have been ca. ten liters.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 23, 2019, 6:34:51 AM11/23/19
to
Le samedi 23 novembre 2019 11:38:15 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:11:53 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > I'm interested to know what Hinz writes, not your own "rendition" of it.
>
> I send you a fotocopy if you tell me your address via e-mail.
>
> > yes, but this item is not an accountancy tablet, visibly and obviously.
> > Whereas HT 95 is visibly and obviously an accountancy tablet.
> >
> > It's not Nergal, but rather Pirig-gal "the Great Lioness", a war goddess.
> > Nergal is an invented reading that does not correspond to the signs.
>
> I render faithfully the translation given in the catalogue mentioned above.
>
> > You missed one clause here: Whoever destroys the temple,
>
> No, its included in: "may Lubadag destroy [him]"
I'm a specialist of Hurrian.
> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:11:53 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > I'm interested to know what Hinz writes, not your own "rendition" of it.
>
> I send you a fotocopy if you tell me your address via e-mail.
>
> > yes, but this item is not an accountancy tablet, visibly and obviously.
> > Whereas HT 95 is visibly and obviously an accountancy tablet.
> >
> > It's not Nergal, but rather Pirig-gal "the Great Lioness", a war goddess.
> > Nergal is an invented reading that does not correspond to the signs.
>
> I render faithfully the translation given in the catalogue mentioned above.
>
> > You missed one clause here: Whoever destroys the temple,
>
> No, its included in: "may Lubadag destroy [him]"
I've studied this item.
I don't know what your source is, anyway, it contains several errors.
>
> Here is the combined information Hinz gives on HT95, side A followed by side B
>
>
> (line A1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal
>
> (line A2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;
>
> (line A3) barley 20; emmer
>
> (line A4) 10; oat 10; roasted
>
> (line A5) grains 7
>
>
>
> (line B1) Adu or Haddu (gets)
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 23, 2019, 9:52:47 AM11/23/19
to
> >He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>
> A tranche is not a steak.
Over Here, a "slice of ham" is a thin slice sliced from a ham, and
about three slices constitute a single serving, usually with a gravy
or sauce made from the pan drippings, a bit of mustard, etc. Butchers
don't sell ham (or any other product) by the slice. Items that are
sliced at a deli counter (cheeses, cold cuts) are sold by weight,
not by number.
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 23, 2019, 9:57:51 AM11/23/19
to
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:27:03 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?
>
> I render
"render" is not "quote." "Render" is what you do with half-remembered,
> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?
>
> I render
and that half, inaccurately, conversations heard on the radio years ago.
> what he wrotes, including the ku-ro kulo kullu 'sum' story.
> Other scholars than you have no qualms rendering a decipherment also in the
> form of a readable translation, for example the Hurrian stone tablet inscription
> of a lion peg, ca. 2300 - 2159 BC (Art of the First Cieties, Metropolitan
> Museum of Art)
that AF is talking about. And that Athel gave you a parallel for.
> Tishatal, ruler (endan) of Urkesh,
> has built a temple for the god Nergal.
> This temple, may the god Lubadag protect [it],
> may Lubadag destroy [him]; may his god
> not listen to his prayer. May the Lady of Nagar,
> Shimiga (the sun god), and the storm god
> [curse ten thousand times] the one
> who would destroy it.
>
> A banning formula of a similar archaic power as the one along the
> Tiryns disc of the Phaistos Disc as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth.
apotropaic inscriptions?
(Never mind what "Tiryns disc of the Phaistos Disc" might mean.)
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 23, 2019, 9:59:19 AM11/23/19
to
of "tranches" here.
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 23, 2019, 11:01:07 AM11/23/19
to
Sat, 23 Nov 2019 06:52:45 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
"tranche" more like 1 to 1,5 mm. In France and Germany usually
somewhat thicker than in the Netherlands.
>and
>about three slices constitute a single serving, usually with a gravy
>or sauce made from the pan drippings, a bit of mustard, etc.
Incomprehensible. What I understand as a "tranche" from a French
supermarket NEVER has any gravy.
>Butchers
>don't sell ham (or any other product) by the slice. Items that are
>sliced at a deli counter (cheeses, cold cuts) are sold by weight,
>not by number.
Strange world.
GT (which is know for it mistranslations) translates "een plakje ham"
as "a slice of ham" and "une tranche de jambon". No steak in sight.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 2:34:38 AM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >> slices).
>
>(three such units)
>
>> >He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>>
>> A tranche is not a steak.
>
>Maybe you don't know what "ham steak" means at a US butcher's.
>
>Over Here, a "slice of ham" is a thin slice sliced from a ham,
How thin? To me, a steak is about 1 cm in thickness, and a "plakje" or
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 2:34:38 AM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >> slices).
>
>(three such units)
>
>> >He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>>
>> A tranche is not a steak.
>
>Maybe you don't know what "ham steak" means at a US butcher's.
>
>Over Here, a "slice of ham" is a thin slice sliced from a ham,
"tranche" more like 1 to 1,5 mm. In France and Germany usually
somewhat thicker than in the Netherlands.
>and
>about three slices constitute a single serving, usually with a gravy
>or sauce made from the pan drippings, a bit of mustard, etc.
supermarket NEVER has any gravy.
>Butchers
>don't sell ham (or any other product) by the slice. Items that are
>sliced at a deli counter (cheeses, cold cuts) are sold by weight,
>not by number.
GT (which is know for it mistranslations) translates "een plakje ham"
as "a slice of ham" and "une tranche de jambon". No steak in sight.
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 23, 2019, 11:05:52 AM11/23/19
to
Here's an an example of the thickness of Dutch "plakken", although the
picture doesn't show ham:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boterhamworst#/media/Bestand:Extrawurst.JPG
picture doesn't show ham:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boterhamworst#/media/Bestand:Extrawurst.JPG
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 23, 2019, 11:10:26 AM11/23/19
to
Sat, 23 Nov 2019 06:59:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
http://docteur-seznec.over-blog.com/2018/12/gilets-jaunes-la-france-souffre-t-elle-du-syndrome-de-la-tranche-de-jambon.html
https://www.iga.net/fr/produit/jambongenre-toupie-fume-tranche/00000_000000021375700000
More German like, thicker:
https://www.iga.net/fr/produit/jambongenre-toupie-fume-tranche/00000_000000021375700000
http://www.grainedeschamps.com/charcuterie-au-detail/365-jambon-blanc-4-tranches.html
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 4:08:16 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2019-11-23 07:34:36 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> > Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >>> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >>> slices).
>> >> He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>> > A tranche is not a steak.
>>
>> As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.
>
>See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
>of "tranches" here.
The Dutch (and French?) kind:
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 4:08:16 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2019-11-23 07:34:36 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> > Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >>> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >>> slices).
>> >> He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>> > A tranche is not a steak.
>>
>> As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.
>
>See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
>of "tranches" here.
http://docteur-seznec.over-blog.com/2018/12/gilets-jaunes-la-france-souffre-t-elle-du-syndrome-de-la-tranche-de-jambon.html
https://www.iga.net/fr/produit/jambongenre-toupie-fume-tranche/00000_000000021375700000
More German like, thicker:
https://www.iga.net/fr/produit/jambongenre-toupie-fume-tranche/00000_000000021375700000
http://www.grainedeschamps.com/charcuterie-au-detail/365-jambon-blanc-4-tranches.html
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 23, 2019, 11:13:36 AM11/23/19
to
Sat, 23 Nov 2019 06:59:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
those are much thicker, and served differently than a "tranche de
jambon".
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 4:08:16 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2019-11-23 07:34:36 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> > Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >>> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >>> slices).
>> >> He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>> > A tranche is not a steak.
>>
>> As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.
>
>See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
>of "tranches" here.
Google Images for "ham steak" and "steak of ham" clearly show that
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 4:08:16 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2019-11-23 07:34:36 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> > Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >>> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >>> slices).
>> >> He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>> > A tranche is not a steak.
>>
>> As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.
>
>See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
>of "tranches" here.
those are much thicker, and served differently than a "tranche de
jambon".
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 23, 2019, 11:26:06 AM11/23/19
to
Sat, 23 Nov 2019 17:01:04 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
meat ware?), not "vlees" (meat). That is quite different.
Google correctly shows different pictures for "vleeswaren" (more at
the wholesale level) and for "verpakte vleeswaren" (supermarket
level).
scribeva:
>How thin? To me, a steak is about 1 cm in thickness, and a "plakje" or
>"tranche" more like 1 to 1,5 mm. In France and Germany usually
>somewhat thicker than in the Netherlands.
In NL, this falls in the category of "verpakte vleeswaren" (packaged
>"tranche" more like 1 to 1,5 mm. In France and Germany usually
>somewhat thicker than in the Netherlands.
meat ware?), not "vlees" (meat). That is quite different.
Google correctly shows different pictures for "vleeswaren" (more at
the wholesale level) and for "verpakte vleeswaren" (supermarket
level).
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 23, 2019, 11:26:48 AM11/23/19
to
Sat, 23 Nov 2019 06:59:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 4:08:16 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2019-11-23 07:34:36 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> > Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >>> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >>> slices).
>> >> He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>> > A tranche is not a steak.
>>
>> As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.
>
>See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
>of "tranches" here.
No, the only correct one.
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 4:08:16 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2019-11-23 07:34:36 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> > Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >>> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >>> slices).
>> >> He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>> > A tranche is not a steak.
>>
>> As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.
>
>See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
>of "tranches" here.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 23, 2019, 11:51:23 AM11/23/19
to
think even six of them are thinner than a ham steak.
--
athel
António Marques
Nov 23, 2019, 7:04:42 PM11/23/19
to
No fun at all.
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 23, 2019, 7:14:16 PM11/23/19
to
Sun, 24 Nov 2019 00:04:41 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>> Google Images for "ham steak" and "steak of ham" clearly show that
>>> those are much thicker, and served differently than a "tranche de
>>> jambon".
>>
>> Yes. The ones I buy for our breakfast are called Le Tranché Fin, and I
or
1 mm has 1/4 of a slice, so 1 slice = 4 mm?
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>>> Google Images for "ham steak" and "steak of ham" clearly show that
>>> those are much thicker, and served differently than a "tranche de
>>> jambon".
>>
>> think even six of them are thinner than a ham steak.
>
>Over here sliced ham is often on the thinner side of 1/4 per *millimetre*.
>No fun at all.
1 slice = 0.25 mm?
>
>Over here sliced ham is often on the thinner side of 1/4 per *millimetre*.
>No fun at all.
or
1 mm has 1/4 of a slice, so 1 slice = 4 mm?
António Marques
Nov 23, 2019, 7:35:35 PM11/23/19
to
You can get slices of any thickness if not prepackaged.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 24, 2019, 2:07:02 AM11/24/19
to
in that case he didn't mean the "per".
--
athel
António Marques
Nov 24, 2019, 5:45:11 AM11/24/19
to
*millimetre*', but felt that it was a collocation error.
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 24, 2019, 9:00:05 AM11/24/19
to
and complaints and detours through Dutch, all I need say is that I don't
know what sort of "ham slice" would be sold in a six-pack and used at
breakfast or how. (How big is each one, that just six of them make up
a commercially reasonable package of them? I.e., how many g of ham per
6 tranches? They're much thinner than what we call "Canadian bacon,"
which comes in disks a bit smaller than bologna or salami from the
deli counter or the refrigerator section of the supermarket.)
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 24, 2019, 9:01:23 AM11/24/19
to
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 7:35:35 PM UTC-5, António Marques wrote:
> I don't know where I got the 'per'. It's 'thinner than 0.25mm'.
That sounds physically impossible! That's, like, paper!
> I don't know where I got the 'per'. It's 'thinner than 0.25mm'.
António Marques
Nov 24, 2019, 9:52:12 AM11/24/19
to
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 7:35:35 PM UTC-5, António Marques wrote:
>
>> I don't know where I got the 'per'. It's 'thinner than 0.25mm'.
>
> That sounds physically impossible! That's, like, paper!
Indeed. It will easily tear. If it's bird rather than pork, it's mostly
> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 7:35:35 PM UTC-5, António Marques wrote:
>
>> I don't know where I got the 'per'. It's 'thinner than 0.25mm'.
>
> That sounds physically impossible! That's, like, paper!
impossible to handle a single slice.
A package will contain about 100g or less (3.5oz?). I have no idea about
Athel's's, they'll have to be thick if they're only 6.
Maybe Franz is right and he's buying tons of it.
Ruud Harmsen
Nov 24, 2019, 12:15:53 PM11/24/19
to
Sun, 24 Nov 2019 06:00:03 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
specific and ask for clarification.
>and complaints and
I didn't complaint. I just demonstrated that you translation proposal
of "tranche" as "steak" is wrong.
>detours through Dutch,
There are historic reason for culinary Dutch and culinary French to be
intimately tied.
>all I need say is that I don't
>know what sort of "ham slice" would be sold in a six-pack and used at
>breakfast or how.
The thin ones, around 1 mm, as already mentioned. No gravy.
>(How big is each one, that just six of them make up
>a commercially reasonable package of them?
About 10 cm in diameter in the Netherlands. Possibly more in France.
> I.e., how many g of ham per 6 tranches? They're much thinner than
> what we call "Canadian bacon," which comes in disks a bit smaller
> than bologna or salami from the deli counter or the refrigerator section
> of the supermarket.)
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 11:51:23 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2019-11-23 16:13:34 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> > Sat, 23 Nov 2019 06:59:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 4:08:16 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> >>> On 2019-11-23 07:34:36 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> >>>> Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >>>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >>>>> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >>>>>> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >>>>>> slices).
>> >>>>> He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>> >>>> A tranche is not a steak.
>> >>> As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.
>> >> See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
>> >> of "tranches" here.
>> > Google Images for "ham steak" and "steak of ham" clearly show that
>> > those are much thicker, and served differently than a "tranche de
>> > jambon".
>>
>> Yes. The ones I buy for our breakfast are called Le Tranché Fin, and I
>> think even six of them are thinner than a ham steak.
>
>Rather than trying to deal with Ruud's spray of incomprehensible comments
None of what I wrote is incomprehensible. If so, you have to be
>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 11:51:23 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2019-11-23 16:13:34 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> > Sat, 23 Nov 2019 06:59:17 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> > <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 4:08:16 AM UTC-5, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> >>> On 2019-11-23 07:34:36 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
>> >>>> Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >>>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >>>>> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >>>>>> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >>>>>> slices).
>> >>>>> He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>> >>>> A tranche is not a steak.
>> >>> As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.
>> >> See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
>> >> of "tranches" here.
>> > Google Images for "ham steak" and "steak of ham" clearly show that
>> > those are much thicker, and served differently than a "tranche de
>> > jambon".
>>
>> Yes. The ones I buy for our breakfast are called Le Tranché Fin, and I
>> think even six of them are thinner than a ham steak.
>
>Rather than trying to deal with Ruud's spray of incomprehensible comments
specific and ask for clarification.
>and complaints and
I didn't complaint. I just demonstrated that you translation proposal
of "tranche" as "steak" is wrong.
>detours through Dutch,
There are historic reason for culinary Dutch and culinary French to be
intimately tied.
>all I need say is that I don't
>know what sort of "ham slice" would be sold in a six-pack and used at
>breakfast or how.
>(How big is each one, that just six of them make up
>a commercially reasonable package of them?
> I.e., how many g of ham per 6 tranches? They're much thinner than
> what we call "Canadian bacon," which comes in disks a bit smaller
> than bologna or salami from the deli counter or the refrigerator section
> of the supermarket.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 24, 2019, 1:18:09 PM11/24/19
to
as food, as we do. The usual number of slices is 4, but sometimes they
offer 6 as a special (as they did on 4th November). In any French
supermarket you can find several metres of shelving with different
offerings from the main producers, Herta, Fleury Michon, Carrefour etc.
Four slices weigh 120 g, so one slice is 30 g. I usual buy Fleury
Michon (which I think of as Flowery Tits, for reasons that Arnaud will
be able to work out). No gravy (or anything else), as you say.
>
>> (How big is each one, that just six of them make up
>> a commercially reasonable package of them?
>
> About 10 cm in diameter in the Netherlands. Possibly more in France.
>
>> I.e., how many g of ham per 6 tranches? They're much thinner than
>> what we call "Canadian bacon," which comes in disks a bit smaller
>> than bologna or salami from the deli counter or the refrigerator section
>> of the supermarket.)
--
athel
>> (How big is each one, that just six of them make up
>> a commercially reasonable package of them?
>
> About 10 cm in diameter in the Netherlands. Possibly more in France.
>
>> I.e., how many g of ham per 6 tranches? They're much thinner than
>> what we call "Canadian bacon," which comes in disks a bit smaller
>> than bologna or salami from the deli counter or the refrigerator section
>> of the supermarket.)
--
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 25, 2019, 3:00:03 AM11/25/19
to
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 12:34:51 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I'm a specialist of Hurrian.
> I've studied this item.
> I don't know what your source is, anyway, it contains several errors.
>
>
> I'm a specialist of Hurrian.
> I've studied this item.
> I don't know what your source is, anyway, it contains several errors.
>
> As explained before, this word a-du means "food rations".
>
But you deny that Tishatal founded a temple of Nergal, obviously not knowing
>
that the Underworld god Nergal was the object of special veneration by
the Hurrians. It is the common assumption that Nergal is meant on the stone
tablet of that lion peg. If you propose another deity you need good arguments.
Which you don't, adhereing to 'hors sol' sound algebra, without connection to
archaeology.
And again you provide no translation of HT95, you just mention details:
Dadumata means she loved by the father, minuthe means measures, and Adu
means allowance. We have then
She loved by the father (gets)
millet 10 (measures)
measure 10 (mesures)
barley 20 (measures)
emmer 10 (mesures)
barley 20 (measures)
roasted grains 7 (measures)
Allowances
barley 10 (measures)
measure 10 (measures)
emmer 10 (measures)
oat 10 (measures)
roasted grains 10 (measures)
Holy nonsense, revealed when your details are put together.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 25, 2019, 3:50:03 AM11/25/19
to
Le lundi 25 novembre 2019 09:00:03 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 12:34:51 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > I'm a specialist of Hurrian.
> > I've studied this item.
> > I don't know what your source is, anyway, it contains several errors.
> >
> > As explained before, this word a-du means "food rations".
> >
>
> But you deny that Tishatal founded a temple of Nergal, obviously not knowing
> that the Underworld god Nergal was the object of special veneration by
> the Hurrians.
For your information, the great scholar Laroche does not even have an entry for Nergal in his Glossaire de la langue hourrite.
> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 12:34:51 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > I'm a specialist of Hurrian.
> > I've studied this item.
> > I don't know what your source is, anyway, it contains several errors.
> >
> > As explained before, this word a-du means "food rations".
> >
>
> But you deny that Tishatal founded a temple of Nergal, obviously not knowing
> that the Underworld god Nergal was the object of special veneration by
> the Hurrians.
To begin with, even the reading "Nergal" is dubious general speaking. Personally I consider the mere existence of a god called "Nergal" to be a myth, or maybe should we even call it a fraud.
The Lion of Urkesh reads <AN PIRIG-GAL> which means <god lion(ess) great>, that is to say "the goddess Great Lioness". It's a well-known war-goddess worshipped in Syria, hence known to Hurrians.
For reasons I can't understand, a number of people keep inventing misreadings of PIRIG into KISH (as per Wilhelm) or the hell knows what other readings.
The word Pirig-gal is Sumerian. It's not absolutely clear what the truly Hurrian equivalent was. Personally, I think that the theonym <a n i r d> attested in Ugarit is the Hurrian name of Piringal.
<a n> = AN
<i r d> = reconstructed form *erada = PIRIG-GAL
ari, eri is Hurrian for "lion", -ad- is augmentative and translates GAL.
Why do you think the Lion of Urkesh is a lion in the first place??
my little hint: it's all about Eni-Erada = AN PIRIG-GAL "the Great Lioness".
It is the common assumption that Nergal is meant on the stone
> tablet of that lion peg. If you propose another deity you need good arguments.
The Goddess is the famous and widespread Piringal.
> Which you don't, adhereing to 'hors sol' sound algebra, without connection to
> archaeology.
>
> And again you provide no translation of HT95, you just mention details:
> Dadumata means she loved by the father, minuthe means measures, and Adu
> means allowance. We have then
>
> She loved by the father (gets)
> millet 10 (measures)
> measure 10 (mesures)
> barley 20 (measures)
> emmer 10 (mesures)
> barley 20 (measures)
> roasted grains 7 (measures)
>
> Allowances
> barley 10 (measures)
> measure 10 (measures)
> emmer 10 (measures)
> oat 10 (measures)
> roasted grains 10 (measures)
>
> Holy nonsense, revealed when your details are put together.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 26, 2019, 3:00:46 AM11/26/19
to
On Monday, November 25, 2019 at 9:50:03 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> Le lundi 25 novembre 2019 09:00:03 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 12:34:51 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm a specialist of Hurrian.
> > > I've studied this item.
> > > I don't know what your source is, anyway, it contains several errors.
> > >
> > > As explained before, this word a-du means "food rations".
> > >
> >
> > But you deny that Tishatal founded a temple of Nergal, obviously not knowing
> > that the Underworld god Nergal was the object of special veneration by
> > the Hurrians.
>
> For your information, the great scholar Laroche does not even have an entry for Nergal in his Glossaire de la langue hourrite.
> To begin with, even the reading "Nergal" is dubious general speaking. Personally I consider the mere existence of a god called "Nergal" to be a myth, or maybe should we even call it a fraud.
> The Lion of Urkesh reads <AN PIRIG-GAL> which means <god lion(ess) great>, that is to say "the goddess Great Lioness". It's a well-known war-goddess worshipped in Syria, hence known to Hurrians.
> For reasons I can't understand, a number of people keep inventing misreadings of PIRIG into KISH (as per Wilhelm) or the hell knows what other readings.
>
> The word Pirig-gal is Sumerian. It's not absolutely clear what the truly Hurrian equivalent was. Personally, I think that the theonym <a n i r d> attested in Ugarit is the Hurrian name of Piringal.
> <a n> = AN
> <i r d> = reconstructed form *erada = PIRIG-GAL
> ari, eri is Hurrian for "lion", -ad- is augmentative and translates GAL.
>
> Why do you think the Lion of Urkesh is a lion in the first place??
> my little hint: it's all about Eni-Erada = AN PIRIG-GAL "the Great Lioness".
>
>
> It is the common assumption that Nergal is meant on the stone
> > tablet of that lion peg. If you propose another deity you need good arguments.
>
> The reading "Nergal" is false, as explained above.
> The Goddess is the famous and widespread Piringal.
Even a French 'hors sol' linguist may perhaps know that a lion with a mane
> Le lundi 25 novembre 2019 09:00:03 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 12:34:51 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm a specialist of Hurrian.
> > > I've studied this item.
> > > I don't know what your source is, anyway, it contains several errors.
> > >
> > > As explained before, this word a-du means "food rations".
> > >
> >
> > But you deny that Tishatal founded a temple of Nergal, obviously not knowing
> > that the Underworld god Nergal was the object of special veneration by
> > the Hurrians.
>
> For your information, the great scholar Laroche does not even have an entry for Nergal in his Glossaire de la langue hourrite.
> To begin with, even the reading "Nergal" is dubious general speaking. Personally I consider the mere existence of a god called "Nergal" to be a myth, or maybe should we even call it a fraud.
> The Lion of Urkesh reads <AN PIRIG-GAL> which means <god lion(ess) great>, that is to say "the goddess Great Lioness". It's a well-known war-goddess worshipped in Syria, hence known to Hurrians.
> For reasons I can't understand, a number of people keep inventing misreadings of PIRIG into KISH (as per Wilhelm) or the hell knows what other readings.
>
> The word Pirig-gal is Sumerian. It's not absolutely clear what the truly Hurrian equivalent was. Personally, I think that the theonym <a n i r d> attested in Ugarit is the Hurrian name of Piringal.
> <a n> = AN
> <i r d> = reconstructed form *erada = PIRIG-GAL
> ari, eri is Hurrian for "lion", -ad- is augmentative and translates GAL.
>
> Why do you think the Lion of Urkesh is a lion in the first place??
> my little hint: it's all about Eni-Erada = AN PIRIG-GAL "the Great Lioness".
>
>
> It is the common assumption that Nergal is meant on the stone
> > tablet of that lion peg. If you propose another deity you need good arguments.
>
> The reading "Nergal" is false, as explained above.
> The Goddess is the famous and widespread Piringal.
is male, a lion and not a lioness.
> > Which you don't, adhereing to 'hors sol' sound algebra, without connection to
> > archaeology.
>
> I adhere to what the inscription reads.
>
> >
> > And again you provide no translation of HT95, you just mention details:
> > Dadumata means she loved by the father, minuthe means measures, and Adu
> > means allowance. We have then
> >
> > She loved by the father (gets)
>
> Actually we don't know what the exact role of Dadum-Atta is: giver, receiver, scribe, merchant, etc. But this line seems to be a Person Name, easily understandable as Hurrian.
>
that Minoan is Semitic, and that the Minoans once had worshipped Baal.
> I still don't understand why you insist on transforming - at all costs and in absolute denial of the obvious - an accountancy tablet into a prosaic narrative.
single words you can hide the flaws. Most obvious in the case of the Voynich.
Every once a while a new and of course valid decipherment pops up on the Web.
And when you look up the sensation you find that only a few words or lines
had been 'deciphered'.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 26, 2019, 4:32:03 AM11/26/19
to
For your information,
https://pies.ucla.edu/IESV/1/VVI_Horse.pdf
Quote:
"As suggested by Laroche, the temple that had been built by Tish-atal was dedicated to the deity PIRIG.GAL, the Hurrian interpretation of which is given by the list from Meskene/Emar. His inscription cited above after introducing his title says according to Laroche's reading: pu-ur-li DPIRIG.GAL pá-’à-às-tum “he built a house = temple of the god(ess) Great Lion(ess).”
>
> > > Which you don't, adhereing to 'hors sol' sound algebra, without connection to
> > > archaeology.
> >
> > I adhere to what the inscription reads.
> >
> > >
> > > And again you provide no translation of HT95, you just mention details:
> > > Dadumata means she loved by the father, minuthe means measures, and Adu
> > > means allowance. We have then
> > >
> > > She loved by the father (gets)
> >
> > Actually we don't know what the exact role of Dadum-Atta is: giver, receiver, scribe, merchant, etc. But this line seems to be a Person Name, easily understandable as Hurrian.
> >
>
> It's Dadumatha, she loved by Adu Haddu Baal. Apparently it still is a scandalon
> that Minoan is Semitic, and that the Minoans once had worshipped Baal.
LinearA contains at least three languages: Hurrian (fewer than 80 tablets), NW Semitic (fewer than 10) and the rest is presumably Minoan, that is to say a language that we don't understand nor can suggest a genetic relationship with another group. Personally, I tend to think that Minoan is possibly Caucasic sensu largo.
Of course, there may exist more than one Minoan, but as we don't understand it, we can't tell.
>
> > I still don't understand why you insist on transforming - at all costs and in absolute denial of the obvious - an accountancy tablet into a prosaic narrative.
>
> Because a complete translation makes the nonsense obvious.
If you just explain
> single words you can hide the flaws.
There's no flaw. The list is semantically and linguistically consistent. And it belongs to a widespread type of tablets: accountancy.
Most obvious in the case of the Voynich.
> Every once a while a new and of course valid decipherment pops up on the Web.
> And when you look up the sensation you find that only a few words or lines
> had been 'deciphered'.
Another way is to posit implausible graphic systems, like Ohlenroth's pseudo-alphabet that has multiple letters with the same value.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 27, 2019, 2:57:43 AM11/27/19
to
On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 10:32:03 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> The opposite is true. Your contrived linear pseudo-translation is nonsensical.
It's not my translation but the one by Walther Hinz. He can render readable
>
> The opposite is true. Your contrived linear pseudo-translation is nonsensical.
translations, whereas you can't, which is why I take no stock in what you say.
> No, HT 95 is clearly a list of staples with NW Semitic names and quantities.
> There's no flaw. The list is semantically and linguistically consistent. And it belongs to a widespread type of tablets: accountancy.
>
by the Master (Adu Haddu Baal), and of the cereals given to (the priests of)
Adu (Haddu Baal), as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake of Cyrus H. Gordon
and Robert Stieglitz and Jan Best. As long as you can't give a full translation
instead of just a few morsels I don't care about what you say.
> yes, partial "deciphering" is indeed a way to cheat with the rules.
> Another way is to posit implausible graphic systems, like Ohlenroth's pseudo-alphabet that has multiple letters with the same value.
for labels.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 27, 2019, 3:59:06 AM11/27/19
to
Le mercredi 27 novembre 2019 08:57:43 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 10:32:03 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > The opposite is true. Your contrived linear pseudo-translation is nonsensical.
>
> It's not my translation but the one by Walther Hinz. He can render readable
> translations, whereas you can't, which is why I take no stock in what you say.
>
> > No, HT 95 is clearly a list of staples with NW Semitic names and quantities.
> > There's no flaw. The list is semantically and linguistically consistent. And it belongs to a widespread type of tablets: accountancy.
> >
>
> HT95 is a list of cereals given to (the priestesses) of Dadumatha, She Loved
> by the Master (Adu Haddu Baal), and of the cereals given to (the priests of)
> Adu (Haddu Baal), as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake of Cyrus H. Gordon
> and Robert Stieglitz and Jan Best.
Inventions...
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 10:32:03 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > The opposite is true. Your contrived linear pseudo-translation is nonsensical.
>
> It's not my translation but the one by Walther Hinz. He can render readable
> translations, whereas you can't, which is why I take no stock in what you say.
>
> > No, HT 95 is clearly a list of staples with NW Semitic names and quantities.
> > There's no flaw. The list is semantically and linguistically consistent. And it belongs to a widespread type of tablets: accountancy.
> >
>
> HT95 is a list of cereals given to (the priestesses) of Dadumatha, She Loved
> by the Master (Adu Haddu Baal), and of the cereals given to (the priests of)
> Adu (Haddu Baal), as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake of Cyrus H. Gordon
> and Robert Stieglitz and Jan Best.
Nobody has the slightest shred of evidence for priestesses or priests...
Besides, a-du means "food rations", nothing to do with the god Hadad.
As long as you can't give a full translation
> instead of just a few morsels I don't care about what you say.
All the LinearA tablets written in NW Semitic are accountancy tablets and they just bear staple names with quantities. These tablets cannot be "fully" translated as you put it, which is a request to invent a fluidified pseudo-narrative grafted on the tablets.
Can we just agree that accountancy tablets are accountancy tablets? Why is it so difficult to just state the obvious?
>
> > yes, partial "deciphering" is indeed a way to cheat with the rules.
> > Another way is to posit implausible graphic systems, like Ohlenroth's pseudo-alphabet that has multiple letters with the same value.
>
> There is a specific term for such an alphabet which I forgot, being no stickler
> for labels.
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 27, 2019, 9:07:27 AM11/27/19
to
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 2:57:43 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 10:32:03 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > The opposite is true. Your contrived linear pseudo-translation is nonsensical.
>
> It's not my translation but the one by Walther Hinz.
Stop using that name. You finally realized that your person is not Walther
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 10:32:03 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > The opposite is true. Your contrived linear pseudo-translation is nonsensical.
>
> It's not my translation but the one by Walther Hinz.
Hinz the renowned Elamitologist, but a different person who uses a middle
initial.
Actors in the US who happen to be born with the same name are required by
the performers' unions to differentiate or even change their stage names
as long as they are both alive ("Ed Begley" was a famous character actor
in the 1950s and later, and his son "Ed Begley Jr." was also a famous
character actor -- but these days he is a famous character actor under
the name "Ed Begley."
"William H. Macy" is so called because "Bill Macy," who is still alive,
had one famous role in the 1970s as the husband on the TV series *Maude*,
and the younger actor can't be simply "William Macy."
"Michael Keaton"'s birth name is "Michael Douglas," and he and Kirk
Douglas's son both became professional actors about the same time,
but "Michael Douglas" entered the profession first and he was the one
who got to register the name. ("Keaton" was an arbitrary choice, because
its owner admired both Buster and Diane.)
So kindly rediscover _your_ Walther Hinz's middle initial and _use it_.
Yes, that's a "rule." If you can't see the reason for it, you're pathetic.
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 27, 2019, 9:12:56 AM11/27/19
to
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 3:59:06 AM UTC-5, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> These tablets cannot be "fully" translated as you put it, which is a request to invent a fluidified pseudo-narrative grafted on the tablets.
You, but not Franz, might be interested in Miguel Civil, "Remarks on
> These tablets cannot be "fully" translated as you put it, which is a request to invent a fluidified pseudo-narrative grafted on the tablets.
AD-GI4," Journal of Cuneiform Studies 65 (2013): 13-67.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 27, 2019, 9:18:37 AM11/27/19
to
Le mercredi 27 novembre 2019 15:07:27 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 2:57:43 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 10:32:03 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> > > The opposite is true. Your contrived linear pseudo-translation is nonsensical.
> >
> > It's not my translation but the one by Walther Hinz.
>
> Stop using that name. You finally realized that your person is not Walther
> Hinz the renowned Elamitologist, but a different person who uses a middle
> initial.
yes, there's obviously an issue about who is Walther Hinz as per Franz.
> On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 2:57:43 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 10:32:03 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> > > The opposite is true. Your contrived linear pseudo-translation is nonsensical.
> >
> > It's not my translation but the one by Walther Hinz.
>
> Stop using that name. You finally realized that your person is not Walther
> Hinz the renowned Elamitologist, but a different person who uses a middle
> initial.
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 28, 2019, 5:40:14 AM11/28/19
to
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 3:18:37 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> yes, there's obviously an issue about who is Walther Hinz as per Franz.
>
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/hinz-a-walther
>
> yes, there's obviously an issue about who is Walther Hinz as per Franz.
>
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 28, 2019, 5:45:46 AM11/28/19
to
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 28, 2019, 8:45:25 AM11/28/19
to
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 28, 2019, 8:46:24 AM11/28/19
to
Franz Gnaedinger
Nov 29, 2019, 3:37:57 AM11/29/19
to
link I gave to a journal from 1975 you also find an arcticle by Cyrus H. Gordon
on Minoan, and another by Walther Hinz on Linear Elamite. All these topics
belong together. Hinz learned Gordon at a symposion in London in 1973, where
he (Gordon) proposed his hypothesis that Minoan is Northwest Semitic, as
derived from ku-ro read as ku-lo similar to Arabic kullu 'sum' (explained
before). You should focus on undoubtedly Hurrian texts, for example the
Song of Liberation (conquest of Ebla) instead of ignoring insights others
made, and dropping invectives because they succeeded. Envy is no guide.
Arnaud Fournet
Nov 29, 2019, 5:58:14 AM11/29/19
to
Le vendredi 29 novembre 2019 09:37:57 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Thursday, November 28, 2019 at 2:45:25 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Le jeudi 28 novembre 2019 11:40:14 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > > On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 3:18:37 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > yes, there's obviously an issue about who is Walther Hinz as per Franz.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/hinz-a-walther
> >
> > Nothing proves that the iranologist Walther Hinz is the same person who wrote your Zurich-Museon garbage.
>
> Hinz says in his paper on HT95 that he is the Elam expert. And in the second
> link I gave to a journal from 1975 you also find an arcticle by Cyrus H. Gordon
> on Minoan, and another by Walther Hinz on Linear Elamite. All these topics
> belong together. Hinz learned Gordon at a symposion in London in 1973, where
> he (Gordon) proposed his hypothesis that Minoan is Northwest Semitic,
Only a handful of tablets are NW Semitic.
> On Thursday, November 28, 2019 at 2:45:25 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Le jeudi 28 novembre 2019 11:40:14 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > > On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 3:18:37 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > yes, there's obviously an issue about who is Walther Hinz as per Franz.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/hinz-a-walther
> >
> > Nothing proves that the iranologist Walther Hinz is the same person who wrote your Zurich-Museon garbage.
>
> Hinz says in his paper on HT95 that he is the Elam expert. And in the second
> link I gave to a journal from 1975 you also find an arcticle by Cyrus H. Gordon
> on Minoan, and another by Walther Hinz on Linear Elamite. All these topics
> belong together. Hinz learned Gordon at a symposion in London in 1973, where
> he (Gordon) proposed his hypothesis that Minoan is Northwest Semitic,
It's high time you stop considering "Minoan" as a monolithic entity.
There are at least three languages in Linear A inscriptions and data.
as
> derived from ku-ro read as ku-lo similar to Arabic kullu 'sum' (explained
> before). You should focus on undoubtedly Hurrian texts, for example the
> Song of Liberation (conquest of Ebla) instead of ignoring insights others
> made, and dropping invectives because they succeeded. Envy is no guide.
Franz Gnaedinger
Dec 2, 2019, 2:35:02 AM12/2/19
to
On Friday, November 29, 2019 at 11:58:14 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I agree a number of tablets are NW Semitic. No envy. Just plain facts.
But still you can't render a full translation of such a tablet.
>
> I agree a number of tablets are NW Semitic. No envy. Just plain facts.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The proof of a key is in the
opening of the door. And the proof of a decipherment is in a full translation
of an early document which opens a door into a remote past.
Arnaud Fournet
Dec 2, 2019, 3:05:27 AM12/2/19
to
Le lundi 2 décembre 2019 08:35:02 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Friday, November 29, 2019 at 11:58:14 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > I agree a number of tablets are NW Semitic. No envy. Just plain facts.
>
>
> But still you can't render a full translation of such a tablet.
I've already provided the analysis and translation of two tablets.
> On Friday, November 29, 2019 at 11:58:14 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > I agree a number of tablets are NW Semitic. No envy. Just plain facts.
>
>
> But still you can't render a full translation of such a tablet.
Franz Gnaedinger
Dec 3, 2019, 2:41:28 AM12/3/19
to
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 9:05:27 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I've already provided the analysis and translation of two tablets.
>
So why can't you post your translation, not as a puzzle but as a readable text?
>
> I've already provided the analysis and translation of two tablets.
>
Arnaud Fournet
Dec 3, 2019, 3:04:09 AM12/3/19
to
you're the only one here who does not understand it and keep making insane requests.
Franz Gnaedinger
Dec 3, 2019, 3:13:51 AM12/3/19
to
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 9:04:09 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I've already posted my translation,
> you're the only one here who does not understand it and keep making insane requests.
Insane requests? the very standard in deciphering early documents. I miss
>
> I've already posted my translation,
> you're the only one here who does not understand it and keep making insane requests.
the joy of a successful decipherer in what you write, and in the way you behave.
Italo
Dec 4, 2019, 5:39:33 PM12/4/19
to
Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:
Anyway, I read that beside _kll_ "total" Ugaritic also has _gr_ "total", supposedly from Hurrian, like j.Bab. _ḫeru_ "totality". That Hurrian word _hejar(-unna)_ "all, whole"(?) appears only at Boghazkoy. I wonder if Ugaritic _gr_ may rather be a loan from Minoan.
--
b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s
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