origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Age

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Franz Gnaedinger

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Nov 18, 2019, 8:22:04 AM11/18/19
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origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Age

***

Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake
of Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed
that the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic at a conference) and Robert
Stieglitz and Jan Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enume-
ration of cereals: on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal,
later on identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal). Most interesting for
me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life for The ...

The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon
recognized Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.
Ugaritic has d-d-m-sh for the goddess, and Yigael Yadin found her name
in the form of d-d-y-m-sh on a Hebrew seal from Tell Djemmeh (1960).
Hence the final syllable was pronounced tha, as in English (ta and tha are
given by the same sign, and Hinz remarks that Linear A and B were botched
scripts). We have then ma-tha, she 'loved by matha'. Matha is known from
Sinai inscriptions (published by Hinz in a journal). Semitic matha means
'chief, lord, master'. Dadumatha was 'loved by the master' a-du Haddu Baal
(later on young god, Minoan Zeus). The language of Linear A tablet Hagia
Triada 95 is Northwest Semitic, as 'predicted' by Gordon.

The word mi-nu-te means 'wheat from mu-nu-ti-um Ugaritic mnt' better
known as Ebla in Syria (some sixty kilometers south of Aleppo), by then
a fertile river oasis.

Follows my development.

I read mi-nu-te as 'wheat from Ebla' and Mi-Nu-The as New Ebla in the West,
kingdom of Minos, the kings called Minos residing at Knossos. Minnith in
Ezekiel 27:17 - "wheat of Minnith" - mentioned by Hinz can't have been Ebla
but was a further New Ebla, this time in the South, on the fertile altiplano
of Jordania.

The Minoans came from Ebla. Mi-Nu-The is given much the same way in
Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and Linear B

Mi head of a bull
Nu visual pun a bull leaper, a young man or a girl on feet hands feet
The a stylized tree of life

Mi-Nu-The on another Linear A tablet from Hagia Triada

http://www.seshat.ch/home/minos.jpg

Enter Magdalenian

MUC for bull, became Mi
NOS for mind, became Nu (Greek nous)
SAI for life, became The

MUC NOS SAI Mi No S Minos
MUC NOS SAI C NOS S Knossos

Baal rose as golden calf = morning sun from the tree of life, while the Stone
Age bull was the moon (Marie E.P. König). The bull leaper standing on his
or her feet (before the bull) hands (on the bull) and feet again (behind the
bull) symbolizes astronomy, the art of calculating cycles of celestial bodies.
And the tree of life says that astronomy was vital for the seafaring Minoans
(as it had been for navigating the Syrian desert).

A lunisolar calendar is encoded in the myth of Minotaur in the labyrinth
(Linear B da-pu-ri-to) of Knossos. A minotaur, half bull half man, was
already known in Ebla.

New idea: Ebla might perhaps go back to AC BLA, expanse of land with
water AC black BLA (inverse of white ALB), naming the fertile river
oasis for its 'black earth', parallel to misr 'black' that names Egypt as land
of the fertile river oasis. Ebla must have been equally fertile as the Nile
Valley.

How sad what happens in Syria now!

***

Ebla was inhabited from 4000 BC till 700 AD, and Crete already in Neolithic
times. The Early Bronze Age of Ebla began in 2700 BC, the Early Minoan period
somewhat before 2600 BC. Ebla was engaged in long-distance trading. I guess
they had an outpost in Crete, which grew and grew, and was much enlarged
when Sargon of Akkad (or Naram-Sin) destroyed the palace of Ebla in the 23rd
century BC, followed by marauding Amurrites.

Ebla was immensely rich. The kingdom might have extended as far as Damascus.
Ebla in the form of mu-nu-ti-um appears on a cuneiform document from 2200 BC.
Ugaritic has mnt. And New Ebla in the West would have been called Mi-Nu-The,
kingdom of Minos, name and title of every Minoan king, rendered much in the
same way in Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and B - as head of a bull for Mi,
visual pun of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and a strongly stylized
tree of life for The. The persistence of this ensemble of signs over a long period
of time speaks for its importance.

Apparently the Minoans abandoned cuneiforms and invented a hieroglyphic script
which was later on developed into Linear A. Minoan Crete, laboratory of early
writing.

The supreme weather god of the Hurrians was Teshup or Teshpak, the one of
the Semites Baal in the form of Haddu, mentioned as a-du on the Linear A tablet
Hagia Triada 95. Baal as Haddu was implored for rain. Who was Dadumatha,
she loved by the master a-du Haddu Baal?

She might have been the supreme Minoan goddess Britomartis, implored for rain
by the inscription on the altar stone of Mallia, deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth:
May the goddess let it rain.

So the cereals for Haddu and Dadumatha listed up on HT95 should mollify
him and her. Otherwise they might cause a drought, and Britomartis turn
into Lousia the Angry One, while Demeter-Elaia from Phigalia turned into
Black Demeter-Melaina who caused a famine, commemorated as Demeter

Eryns by Pausanias, Demeter as one of the Furies.

Derk Ohlenroth deciphered not only the Phaistos Disc and altar stone
inscription of Mallia but also the short inscription on a bronze double axe
from the cult cave Arkalochori in Central Crete: I belong to the goddess
Lousia. Three signs correspond to Phaistos Disc hieroglyphs, while one side
of the disc is devoted to Demeter-Elaia and her daughter Nyx who gave oracles.

All hangs together, centered in agriculture, from a time when people could
not just go a few blocks down to a supermarket and get everything they needed.

***

Pondering the etymology of labyrinth given as dapurito in Linear B led me
to a Sumerian myth of creation in a Babylonian version. The first people were
immortal and procreated. Ever more and more of them populated the earth
and made such a racket that Enlil could no longer sleep. The gods decided
to eliminate the human race. Enlil created a horrible monster called Labbu,
a giant snake. Labbu devoured most humans, and was such an awful beast
that it was feared by all gods. One of them succeeded in killing it, whereupon
its blood flew for several years. The mother-goddess was outraged because of
the almost complete extinction of humanity. Finally a compromise was reached.
The surviving humans were allowed to live on, but became mortal, so they
would no longer over-populate the world.

Labbu might account for laby- dapu-. Now for -rinth -rito. The closest match
is Greek rhytaer 'archer; guard, protector'. Dragons lived in caves. Many
big caves are labyrinths of gangways. A labyrinth might originally have been
such a cave guarded by an imaginary dragon - a mini-Labbu, as it were -
whose evil breath might have been a sulfuric gas emerging from a cleft in
the rock. Consider also Hebrew laba for lava.

Another man-eating monster inhabited the labyrinth of Knossos, Minotaur.

Actually, the myth of Minotaur encodes a lunisolar calendar, and the labyrinth
symbolizes the complicated astronomical calculations carried out in offices
of the labyrinthic palace of Knossos.

Maybe also the Babylonian myth of Labbu was concerned about time. As long
as people were immortal, time was of no importance. But then Labbu ended
their lives. And the final compromise: we are given a limited lifetime.

Let us make the best of it.

***

Daidalos (DAI for protected area) built a labyrinth for the bull-man
Minotaur (TOR for bull in motion). Every ninth year the monster demanded
seven virgins and seven young men. Theseus killed him and freed the victims.
Together they found a way out of the labyrinth following Ariadne's thread.

This myth encodes a complex and ingenious lunisolar calendar.

Minotaur of the double nature embodies two periods of time, 9 and 235
lunations or synodic months; king Minos 9 years; each of the seven virgins
and seven young men 19 days; and Theseus 19 years; while Ariadne's thread
were additive number sequences.

9 lunations of Minotaur counted in the 30 29 30 mode yield 266 days

19 days for each of the seven vigins and seven young men are again 266 days
- metaphorically speaking they give their lives for the monster

9 years of king Minos are seven regular years of 365 days plus two leap
years of 366 days, in all 3,287 days, or 173 periods of 19 days - the king
offered the young ones to Minotaur every 9th year

19 years of Theseus are 235 lunations - thus he overcame the 235 lunations
of Minotaur

One of Ariadne's threads was a special number sequence correlating lunations
(l) and years (y)

l/y 37/3 99/8 136/11 235/19 371/30

37/3 was used by the Celts (two years of 12 lunations plus one leap year of
13 lunations). 99/8 underlies the Lascaux calendar, and the dingir calendar of
Sumer which also includes Venus. 235/19 is present in the calendar of Knossos,
and 371/30 in the calendar of Mallia.

The Minoans believed in a giant subterranean bull causing earthquakes.
Lord Evans experienced a Cretan earthquake, heard the 'bull' bellow,
and found the metaphor adequate. Natural catastrophes were ascribed to
monsters of many guises, Labbu of Babylon a sea monster, serpent, dragon,
lion, all in one. What are now curious myths had once been philosophy.
Even science in the case of the calendar of Minotaur.

***

The lunisolar calendar of Mallia is encoded in the round stone kernos
in a corner of the royal court. Along the rim are 33 smaller cup marks
plus a bigger one. Count 11 days for each smaller bowl, and 2 or 3 more
days for the larger bowl, thus you get a regular year of 365 and an
occasional leap year of 366 days.

A Mallia week had 11 days and a month 33 days.

Count 19 lunations or synodic months in the 30 29 30 mode and you get
561 days, or 51 Mallia weeks of 11 days, or 17 Mallia months of 33 days.

Remember Ariadne's thread correlating lunations and years

37/7 99/8 136/11 235/19 371/30

235/19 was used for the Knossos calendar. Now let us look at 371/30
meaning that 371 lunations correspond to 30 years. Let us check this out.

Count 15 and 17 lunations in the 30 29 30 mode and you'll obtain
443 and 502 days respectively. Then carry out the following additions

17 15 17 15 17 or 17 32 49 64 81 lunations
502 443 502 443 502 443 502 or 502 945 1477 1890 2392 days

81 64 64 64 49 49 sum 371 lunations
2392 1890 1890 1890 1447 1447 sum 10956 days

371 lunations are 10,956 days (not even four hours less, mistake per
lunation about half a minute).

Now for days in 30 years. Draw up another additive number sequence

365/1 (plus 1461/4) 1826/5 3287/9 ... 9131/25

3,287 days for 19 years were used for the calendar of Minotaur. Let us
add 1,826 and 9,131 days for 5 and 25 days. Together we have 10,957 days
(not even seven hours more, mistake less than thirteen minutes per year).
A close match to the 10,956 days for 371 lunations.

371 lunations correspond to 10,956 days or 996 Mallia weeks or 332 Mallia
months. Add one leap day and you have 10,957 days for 30 years.

The Mallia calendar worked for a nice round number of 30 years.

Maybe the kernos represents a calendar sanctuary in form of a ceremonial
garden? connected with a mythical story about vegetation?

***

A famous and very beautiful fresco from the palace of Knossos

http://www.seshat.ch/home/europa1.jpg

shows a proud bull before a night blue background (rests of the original
color) and three human figures demonstrating the stages of bull leaping.
A girl takes him by the horns, a young man turns a somersault over him,
and a second girl who landed safely behind him raises her arms for
keeping balance, in the joy that she succeeded, and ready to catch
the young man when he comes down. All three figures and the bull
are shown in full action while hovering in the sky.

The Minoan sport of bull leaping symbolized Minoan astronomy,
the art of calculating celestial cycles. Look at the girl before the bull
and draw a horizontal line at her eye level --- the line will appear
as horizon, and the perfect arc of the upper curve of the bull' neck
as full moon rising above the horizon

http//www.seshat.ch/home/europa2.jpg

Magdalenian OC means right eye, inverse CO means attentive mind,
ORI means horizon, the permutation OIR means to watch the moon
rise above the horizon, AIR means to raise the arms in joy. These
words and meanings (mined in 2005/06) are a perfect match for
the girls in the freso

OIR OC CO she watches the moon rise over the horizon OIR
with open eyes OC and focused mind CO

AIR OC CO she raises her arms in joy AIR
with open eyes OC and focused mind CO

Minoan bull leaping was also a symbol of the human condition. AD TOR OC CO,
toward AD the bull in motion TOR with open eyes OC and focused mind CO
- facing the bull, taking him by the horns, coping with fate ...
AD TOR OC CO Mycenaean atoroqo Greek anthropos 'human being'.

OC CO oqo opos opsis - a phonetic shift allowing the asummption

OIR OC OC Europa
AIR OC CO Europa

Greek Europa means 'Far Looking One' or 'Wide Looking One'. Astronomers
watching the moon and observing the sky look far and wide.

The origin of Europa would then have been Minoan astronomy that came from
Ebla in Syria.


******


end of Mediterranean Bronze Age


Where did the Luvians come from? Let me propose a hypothesis based
on place names.

POL LAS Wilusa (W)Ilios Ilion (Homeric Troy)

POL means a fortified settlement (Greek polis Latin villa French ville),
and LAS a hill, or a mountain in what I call 'attention perspective':
a hill heightened by an awe and fear inspiring cyclopic wall. Homer's
Polyphem - a famous cyclops who resembled more a wooded mountain top
than a man who eats bread - symbolizes Troy, his one eye the acropolis
overlooking the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa that
provided protected shelter for 5,000 - 10,000 people.

TYR PAS Taruwisa Troy

TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, and PAS
everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me.
Troy dominated a crossing point of important tradeways (S-N and E-W),
and was protected from above by TYR SsEYR Sseus Zeus who ruled everywhere
PAS. According to Homer, Zeus and Athene had once been on the Trojan side.

KOD DhAG AS Hattusas (Hattushas)

KOD means tent, hut; several Sanskrit derivatives name strongholds. DhAG
means able, here a massive stronghold able to hold up all enemies (except
an inner usurpator who caused the fall of the mighty Hittite empire). And
AS means upward, up above. Together a really strong fortress on top of
a hill or mountain.

POL LAS named Athene as Pallas Athene.

Inverse LAS POL might have named the Luvian language, luwili

POL LAS Wilusa LAS POL luwili ?

POL Wil- LAS -lusa LAS lu- POL -wili

a language spoken by people residing in a palace on top of a hill or mountain
around 1600 BC ? how about Erzurum at the base of the Palandöken daglari

POL LAS DhAG Palandök- ??

Also the Hatti people or Hittites came a long way, from somewhere in the East
and/or North. Their last station before Hattusas (Hattushas) had been Nesa
Kültepe Kanish Kayseri.

***


Manfred Korfmann, late excavator of Troy, was convinced that the Trojans
had been Luvians.

The antagonist of Troy was Ahhiyawa (Akhiyawa or Achijawa) Achaia,
identified as the Peloponnese with Mycene. Its name could go back to
AChI AD DA, swelling river AChI plus the generic river formula AD DA for
water flowing toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills or mountains.
This would go along with AChI )EI or AChI LEi Achilles, comparing the
fiercest Greek warrior to a river tsunami, swelling water attacking with
the vehemence of a lion.

Arzawa has been located in Lydia, western Anatolia, and was previously called
Luwija, land of the Luvians. The origin of the name Arzawa might have been
ARC AD DA, again the polished river formula AD DA -awa, this time combined
with a bear ARC (originally a cave bear, then Greek arktos for bear).
German has bärenstark 'strong like a bear', and reissen 'rip, tear' for both
a predatory animal killing a prey, eine Beute reissen, and a torrential
river, ein reissender Fluss. If this etymology holds, also the Luvians
had been fierce warriors.

Now the question is: where did the Luvians come from? did they cross
the Dardanelles? or did they come a long way from the East? maybe passing
Erzurum and the Dalandöken daglari? moving and spreading in a wide arc
around Hittite territory? finally reaching and overtaking Troy? or just
blending in?

***


Achilles had been attacked by the waves of the river Scamander, a river
called Xanthos by the gods. Greek xanthos named all hues of copper ore,
yellow brown reddish, hence the river attacking Achilles was the Trojan
army, soldiers clad in copper and bronze armaments. And this confirms
AChI )EI or AChI LEI Achilles, comparing the fierce warrior to a river
tsunami striking with the vehemence of a lion - Achilles met his equal.


Eponymous Tiryns, hero of the Phaistos Disc, Lord Laertes in Homer’s
Odyssey, was the mythological father of Odysseus whose name might go
back to AD DA SAI, again the generic river formula AD DA but now
followed by SAI for life, together life along rivers, or life as river in
the sense of the title of a French film: La vie est une longue fleuve
tranquille, life is a long and tranquil river. But not always! A river can
swell and flood a plain. Odysseus - 'if there ever was such a man’
(Homer) - got angry, Greek odyssomai ‘be angry’.

What was the reason of his anger? The Mycenaean tin came from
Central Asia and was bound to pass the Dardanelles where the Trojans
laid hands on the precious cargo - abducting Helen of the white arms,
Homeric personification of tin, her husband xanthos Menelaos the
symbol of copper, and their daughter lovely Hermione who resembled
golden Aphrodite the symbol of bronze, alloy of copper and tin,
of a golden shine when freshly cast. Abducting beautiful Helen means
confiscating tin destined for Mycenae which led to a series of incidents
that culminated in the Trojan War.

Polyphem is the Homeric symbol of Troy VIIa, his one eye the acropolis
overlooking the river plain, his body downtown Troy, his cave the harbor
in the Besik bay, his goats and sheep foreign ships, and their milk high fees
foreign sailors had to pay for waiting in the harbor until a favorable wind
came up.

The Greek ships were horses, resting in the mouthing area of the Simois
and Scamander, mosquito infested swamps explaining the malaria episode
in the Iliad.

The war dragged on. Then wily Odysseus had an idea. He let a seemingly
abandoned ship drift along the Aegean shore and pass the Besik bay.
The guards of the harbor hauled it in - whereupon hidden Achaean soldier
leapt out and took the guards by surprise. The castel, some three kilometers
away, was alarmed. The Trojan army sped to the harbor. Meanwhile
Achaean archers hiding near the stronghold shot fire arrows over the
cyclopic wall and burned down the acropolis - blinding Polyphem,
as it were.

Poseidon and Apollo got so angry that they made the Simois and Scarmander
swell and sweep away all vestiges of the Greek camps, as related in the middle
of the Iliad, end of book 12.



***

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Nov 18, 2019, 8:26:15 AM11/18/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 3:22:04 PM UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Ag

Crap and spam.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Nov 18, 2019, 8:42:28 AM11/18/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:26:15 PM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:

> Crap and spam.


Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
attacking women. Then he joined sci.lang in early 2006 and attacked
me out of the blue. May my head burst, he wrote in a stilted German,
the sooner the more betterer. He applied what I call the strategy
of the weak dog: find a weaker dog than yourself, bite him and hope
to climb the social ladder. Only that I am no weak dog. Ever since
he follows me around, commanding a shadow army of braying aliasses.
He attacks also others under different names in the same thread.
One of his pseudonyms had been Der psychopathsiche Entdärmer (sic)
'the psychopathic eviscerator'. Using his real name he wrote that
he has plenty ideas of what he could do to me with a knife, alas,
the law still considers me a human being with rights. He tried and
tries everything to obstruct my work and ruin my threads. About my
brief summary of Homer's Odyssey, work of decades, he bragged that
he could write such a piece within a quarter of an hour - only that
we never see anything like it from him. Once he told me in all earnest
that I can't understand the epic when I read the Greek original,
I must read the Finnish translation! A barren mind paired with
a burning ambition results in craving power. He must govern sci.lang
with a little textbook half-knowledge. He must make the rules.
Unable of arguing on the topic level he operates most of the time
on meta-levels and drops verdicts from above, not even knowing
what meta-level means, claiming that I call my work a meta-level,
proudly parading his exemplary typeryys.

Arnaud Fournet

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Nov 18, 2019, 10:23:28 AM11/18/19
to
Le lundi 18 novembre 2019 14:22:04 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> origin of Europa / end of Mediterranean Bronze Age
>
> ***
>
> Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake
> of Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed
> that the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic at a conference) and Robert
> Stieglitz and Jan Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enume-
> ration of cereals:

Up to here, it's true.
Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is indeed a list of staples and cereals under their Semitic names.



on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal,
> later on identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
> Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal).

Status = garbage.


Most interesting for
> me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
> of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life for The ...

Garbage.
mi-nu-te probably means "measurements".


>
> The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon
> recognized Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.

Dadum-atta in Hurrian.


> Ugaritic has d-d-m-sh for the goddess, and Yigael Yadin found her name
> in the form of d-d-y-m-sh on a Hebrew seal from Tell Djemmeh (1960).
> Hence the final syllable was pronounced tha, as in English (ta and tha are
> given by the same sign, and Hinz remarks that Linear A and B were botched
> scripts). We have then ma-tha, she 'loved by matha'. Matha is known from
> Sinai inscriptions (published by Hinz in a journal). Semitic matha means
> 'chief, lord, master'. Dadumatha was 'loved by the master' a-du Haddu Baal
> (later on young god, Minoan Zeus). The language of Linear A tablet Hagia
> Triada 95 is Northwest Semitic, as 'predicted' by Gordon.

Gaggithaleresque gaggi.

>
> The word mi-nu-te means 'wheat from mu-nu-ti-um Ugaritic mnt' better
> known as Ebla in Syria (some sixty kilometers south of Aleppo), by then
> a fertile river oasis.

status = crap.


>
> Follows my development.

Expect crap...
Yes, probably so, but irrelevant.

>
> ***
>
> Ebla was inhabited from 4000 BC till 700 AD,

Status = false.


and Crete already in Neolithic
> times. The Early Bronze Age of Ebla began in 2700 BC, the Early Minoan period
> somewhat before 2600 BC. Ebla was engaged in long-distance trading. I guess
> they had an outpost in Crete, which grew and grew, and was much enlarged
> when Sargon of Akkad (or Naram-Sin) destroyed the palace of Ebla in the 23rd
> century BC, followed by marauding Amurrites.

ok, so you finally learned something, Möngi.

>
> Ebla was immensely rich. The kingdom might have extended as far as Damascus.
> Ebla in the form of mu-nu-ti-um appears on a cuneiform document from 2200 BC.
> Ugaritic has mnt. And New Ebla in the West would have been called Mi-Nu-The,
> kingdom of Minos, name and title of every Minoan king, rendered much in the
> same way in Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and B - as head of a bull for Mi,
> visual pun of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and a strongly stylized
> tree of life for The. The persistence of this ensemble of signs over a long period
> of time speaks for its importance.

Irrelevant garbage.

>
> Apparently the Minoans abandoned cuneiforms and invented a hieroglyphic script
> which was later on developed into Linear A. Minoan Crete, laboratory of early
> writing.

Invented idiocies.


>
> The supreme weather god of the Hurrians was Teshup or Teshpak, the one of
> the Semites Baal in the form of Haddu, mentioned as a-du on the Linear A tablet
> Hagia Triada 95. Baal as Haddu was implored for rain. Who was Dadumatha,
> she loved by the master a-du Haddu Baal?

status = garbage


>
> She might have been the supreme Minoan goddess Britomartis, implored for rain
> by the inscription on the altar stone of Mallia, deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth:
> May the goddess let it rain.
>
> So the cereals for Haddu and Dadumatha listed up on HT95 should mollify
> him and her. Otherwise they might cause a drought, and Britomartis turn
> into Lousia the Angry One, while Demeter-Elaia from Phigalia turned into
> Black Demeter-Melaina who caused a famine, commemorated as Demeter
>
> Eryns by Pausanias, Demeter as one of the Furies.
>
> Derk Ohlenroth deciphered not only the Phaistos Disc and altar stone
> inscription of Mallia but also the short inscription on a bronze double axe
> from the cult cave Arkalochori in Central Crete: I belong to the goddess
> Lousia. Three signs correspond to Phaistos Disc hieroglyphs, while one side
> of the disc is devoted to Demeter-Elaia and her daughter Nyx who gave oracles.
>
> All hangs together, centered in agriculture, from a time when people could
> not just go a few blocks down to a supermarket and get everything they needed.

Garbage upon crap upon Scheise.


>
> ***
>
> Pondering the etymology of labyrinth given as dapurito in Linear B led me
> to a Sumerian myth of creation in a Babylonian version. The first people were
> immortal and procreated. Ever more and more of them populated the earth
> and made such a racket that Enlil could no longer sleep. The gods decided
> to eliminate the human race. Enlil created a horrible monster called Labbu,
> a giant snake. Labbu devoured most humans, and was such an awful beast
> that it was feared by all gods. One of them succeeded in killing it, whereupon
> its blood flew for several years. The mother-goddess was outraged because of
> the almost complete extinction of humanity. Finally a compromise was reached.
> The surviving humans were allowed to live on, but became mortal, so they
> would no longer over-populate the world.
>
> Labbu might account for laby- dapu-. Now for -rinth -rito. The closest match
> is Greek rhytaer 'archer; guard, protector'. Dragons lived in caves. Many
> big caves are labyrinths of gangways. A labyrinth might originally have been
> such a cave guarded by an imaginary dragon - a mini-Labbu, as it were -
> whose evil breath might have been a sulfuric gas emerging from a cleft in
> the rock. Consider also Hebrew laba for lava.
>
> Another man-eating monster inhabited the labyrinth of Knossos, Minotaur.

Minothayr according to your illiteracy.

>
> Actually, the myth of Minotaur encodes a lunisolar calendar, and the labyrinth
> symbolizes the complicated astronomical calculations carried out in offices
> of the labyrinthic palace of Knossos.
>
> Maybe also the Babylonian myth of Labbu was concerned about time. As long
> as people were immortal, time was of no importance. But then Labbu ended
> their lives. And the final compromise: we are given a limited lifetime.
>
> Let us make the best of it.

ok, wipe your own ass with it.


[repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

unread,
Nov 18, 2019, 11:44:08 AM11/18/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 3:42:28 PM UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:26:15 PM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>
> > Crap and spam.
>
>
> Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
> history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
> attacking women

Do tell me how this relates to my knowledge of language, languages and linguistics. Oh, I know - NOT AT ALL.

You have a long history of filling sci.lang with worthless spam, and you are abysmally uncivilized.

António Marques

unread,
Nov 18, 2019, 2:56:44 PM11/18/19
to
I've grown quite fond of the 'once[,] he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
attacking women' sentence. I mean, is there even a soc.men? If so, what's
expected to appear there? What would an 'ugly message', 'attacking women'
be in that context? This is the kind of sentence you can say once, but
repeated it looks weird.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

unread,
Nov 18, 2019, 3:04:37 PM11/18/19
to
This is all just fantasy (like everything else he writes). Not worth
disputing, except that disputing it detracts from the time he can
devote to his "work".


--
athel

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 3:21:05 AM11/19/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 4:23:28 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]

A. Fou can't post his translation of HT95, nor any other translation of
a Linear A tablet. His way of behaving deserves my comment on him.

Arnaud Fournet is an eerie wiedergänger of my first longtime online stalker:
Jean Faucounau alias grapheus, Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer,
located the language of the disc in southwestern Anatolia, never posted
his translation, stalked me from 2001-05, used stereotyped SHOUTING
-- Arnaud Fournet alias yangg, Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer,
locates the language of the disc in southeastern Anatolia, never posts
his translation, stalked me from ca. 2010-14, uses stereotyped scatology.

Are there further Frenchmen and Phaistos Disc decipherers in line
waiting to stalk me and denigrate Derk Ohlenroth? My astrologer had
a long look into her Fine Magic Crystal Ball (tradem.reg.) and finally
nodded: Martin Feullemille alias glypho, locates the language of the
disc in the middle of southern Anatolia ... Pauv' type, wasting his
time on a prize he lost before he even started.

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 3:23:47 AM11/19/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 9:04:37 PM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> This is all just fantasy (like everything else he writes). Not worth
> disputing, except that disputing it detracts from the time he can
> devote to his "work".
>

Sock-puppet of Panu Petteri Höglund the Clueless, unable to focus on one
single alleged blunder of mine, just only ever operating on meta-levels,
imp-as-otent can be.


Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 4:36:01 AM11/19/19
to
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:21:05 AM UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 4:23:28 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
>
> A. Fou can't post his translation of HT95, nor any other translation of
> a Linear A tablet. His way of behaving deserves my comment on him.
>
> Arnaud Fournet is an eerie wiedergänger of my first longtime online stalker:

I don't know who this Faucounaux is, but it is obvious that questioning your "work" on solid scholarly grounds is in your eyes "stalking".

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 4:37:13 AM11/19/19
to
Have you ever, even as a kind of Gedankenexperiment, tried to answer people in any other ways than:
- telling them they are my sock-puppets,
- insulting them personally?

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 5:12:30 AM11/19/19
to
Faucounau is a French engineer who claims to have deciphered the Phaistos Disc with a kind of dialectal Greek and an implausible syllabic grid.

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 5:13:56 AM11/19/19
to
Le mardi 19 novembre 2019 10:36:01 UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski a écrit :
> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:21:05 AM UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 4:23:28 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > >
> > > [repetitive boring idiotic crap deleted]
> >
> > A. Fou can't post his translation of HT95, nor any other translation of
> > a Linear A tablet.

This is obviously false. I explained Ko Za 1.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 5:32:38 AM11/19/19
to
I think he had a shock after presenting himself as the expert on Lynn
Margulis's work, based a radio programme he had listened to about her,
to learn that I had been the invited editor of a special issue of a
journal commemorating her classic paper of 1967. That didn't stop him
continuing to regard himself as the expert. I doubt whether he has even
read the 1967 paper or could give a full reference to it: as he would
put it, "in 1967 an American biologist proposed a theory of symbiosis".
Would he even know that much? For example, would he know what name she
used as author in 1967 (hint: it's not Margulis)?


--
athel

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 7:54:15 AM11/19/19
to
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:13:56 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> This is obviously false. I explained Ko Za 1.

You explained details, but you gave no translation.

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 7:59:15 AM11/19/19
to
No, the books by her I read, and having seen her at a conference
in Zurich. She mentioned the termite eating wood, however, the
termite can't digest ligneum, for that purpose it has bacteria
in the guts that do the work. Now, she asked with her strong voice,
who is the termite, and who the bacteria? She pleads for symbiosis
as driver of evolution equally important as Darwinian concurrence
And she is no romantic fool, considering the book she co-authored,
wherein the two authors strip the human brain down to the reptile
brain and further down the line.

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 8:27:15 AM11/19/19
to
Gloss of each line is a translation, you Möngi.
Can't you read, idiot?

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 9:17:56 AM11/19/19
to
On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:56:44 PM UTC-5, António Marques wrote:

> I've grown quite fond of the 'once[,] he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
> attacking women' sentence. I mean, is there even a soc.men? If so, what's
> expected to appear there? What would an 'ugly message', 'attacking women'
> be in that context? This is the kind of sentence you can say once, but
> repeated it looks weird.

Messages from newsgroups called "soc.culture.GN" used to leak out once in
a while ("GN" = 'geographic name'). They were newsgroups for spewing hatred
against ethnic groups other than those associated with that GN. They seem
to have decamped to more trendy platforms), so it wouldn't be surprising
if "soc.men" was a forerunner of the "InCel" -- 'involuntary celibate' --
movement (for males who are unable to attract females for mating purposes).

Athel Cornish-Bowden

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 9:21:34 AM11/19/19
to
So no. You don't know her classic paper of 1967, and you don't know the
name she went by at the time. You also seem to think she is still alive.


--
athel

Athel Cornish-Bowden

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 9:24:16 AM11/19/19
to
It's interesting that crackpots don't seem to appreciate other
crackpots -- something we saw very clearly in Franz's attacks on Pete
Olcott.


--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 9:25:19 AM11/19/19
to
Have you seen David Quammen's *The Tangled Tree*? He uses a history of
the "tree" metaphor to explain developments in post-Darwininan evolution
at the sub-cellular level.

His principal character is Carl Woese. Unfortunately he never gives the
pronunciation of the name, and guesses are stymied by the fact that the
second time it occurs, it's divided between lines as Wo-ese. (Ain't
computers grand?)

He does describe Mrs. Margulis's somewhat chaotic personal life, pointing
out that her famous-named collaborator on several volumes is her son.

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 9:27:12 AM11/19/19
to
That doesn't sound much like how Quammen describes her hypotheses.
It sounds like nothing more than an analogy -- the only level on
which Franz can operate.

António Marques

unread,
Nov 19, 2019, 1:44:41 PM11/19/19
to
Beware. He may just start accusing you of having killed her.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

unread,
Nov 20, 2019, 3:25:03 AM11/20/19
to
Actually, it is not the usual way. Most often crackpots gang up against scientists and scholars. Franz attacking Olcott was very uncharacteristic of a crackpot. Moreover, if my memory serves Franz dismissed Olcott on quite sane and sound methodological grounds - precisely the same kind of arguments that are "worthless meta-talk" if they are applied on Franz's own hummings.

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 20, 2019, 3:34:31 AM11/20/19
to
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:27:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Gloss of each line is a translation, you Möngi.
> Can't you read, idiot?


(line 1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal

(line 2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;

(line 3) barley 20; emmer

(line 4) 10; oat 10; roasted

(line 5) grains 7


Reading Mi-Nu-T(h)e as 'measure' in your way one obtains a *moronic*
translation

Dadumata (gets
millet 10 (measures)
* measure 10 (measures) *
barley 20 (measures)
emmer 10 (measures)
oat 10 (measures)
roasted grains 7 (measures)

That is why I ask for a readable translation, not just single words.

Gallia divisa est in partes tres: Arnausea, Fournetium, Scatalogibusque.

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 20, 2019, 4:32:46 AM11/20/19
to
Le mercredi 20 novembre 2019 09:34:31 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:27:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Gloss of each line is a translation, you Möngi.
> > Can't you read, idiot?
>
>
> (line 1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal
>
> (line 2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;
>
> (line 3) barley 20; emmer
>
> (line 4) 10; oat 10; roasted
>
> (line 5) grains 7
>
>
> Reading Mi-Nu-T(h)e as 'measure' in your way one obtains a *moronic*
> translation
>
> Dadumata (gets
> millet 10 (measures)
> * measure 10 (measures) *
> barley 20 (measures)
> emmer 10 (measures)
> oat 10 (measures)
> roasted grains 7 (measures)
>
> That is why I ask for a readable translation, not just single words.

yes, I was suspecting that situation.
You're asking to invent a procustean "translation", instead of just reading what the tablet is: namely, a list of staples with figures.
Remember Procustes ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 20, 2019, 6:49:04 AM11/20/19
to
Again no translation of Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 from you,
nor of another Linear A tablet. How long will that silly game go on?

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

unread,
Nov 20, 2019, 7:01:21 AM11/20/19
to
If there is a "silly game" going on, it will end when you stop playing it and leave this group. You have been pestering us for more than a decade for Chrissake.

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 20, 2019, 7:05:47 AM11/20/19
to
What you call "translation" is your gaggithaleresque fanciful interpretation of actual tablets.
I have provided the objective analysis of what the accountancy tablets like Haghia Triada 95 stand for.
There's nothing more to provide.
Yes, your silly game has gone on too long.

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 20, 2019, 7:26:41 AM11/20/19
to
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 1:05:47 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> What you call "translation" is your gaggithaleresque fanciful interpretation of actual tablets.
> I have provided the objective analysis of what the accountancy tablets like Haghia Triada 95 stand for.
> There's nothing more to provide.
> Yes, your silly game has gone on too long.

You are a fine wiedergänger of Marie Jean Faoucounau alias grapheus alias
RoseMarie, even more effective, as you replace his stereotyped SHOUTING
by stereotyped scatology.

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 20, 2019, 7:36:21 AM11/20/19
to
Everybody can see that you (=Franz) have nothing serious to say.
Your posts on sci.lang are a mixture of fanciful garbage and irrelevant meta-babble.

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 21, 2019, 2:16:04 AM11/21/19
to
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 1:36:21 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Everybody can see that you (=Franz) have nothing serious to say.
> Your posts on sci.lang are a mixture of fanciful garbage and irrelevant meta-babble.

No, the meta-babble is yours, you just can't post a translation of a Linear A
tablet, HT95 or another one, you can't argue on the topic level, also you
must always escape to a meta-level and drop verdicts from above, sad clone
of the sad clown Faucounau.

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 21, 2019, 3:03:28 AM11/21/19
to
I have posted two analyses of LinearA tablets.
Everybody can see that.

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 21, 2019, 3:08:28 AM11/21/19
to
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 9:03:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I have posted two analyses of LinearA tablets.
> Everybody can see that.

But not a translation, a readable translation which is the real test of
an alleged decipherment. You indulge in details but are unable of giving
a synopsis.

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 21, 2019, 3:21:27 AM11/21/19
to
You understand neither the word "translation" nor the word "decipherment".
LinearA does not need to be deciphered, the issue is more to determine which language(s) are there and what the tablets are about.
How do you provide a readable translation of Bahnhof's schedules, you retarded Möngi??
Can't you see that accountancy tablets and train schedules are not meant to be a fluid text??


HT 95+149. (on a tablet) list of cereals (Van Soesbergen tome 2–1, pp. 150–51)
Line a.1
da-du-ma-ta => Dadum-atta ‘Hurrian Person name: Father loves (him)’
[it's unclear if this person is a giver, a receiver or a scribe]
GRA => ‘list of cereals’
Line 2
da-me 10 => (unclear) √dm (?) ‘some kind of juice’
mi-nu-te 10 => (?) ‘peas’ or √mnw *mīnūte ‘measures’
Line 3
sa-ru 20 => √śˁr *saˁru ‘barley’
ku-ni-su 10 => √knt *kunīt_u ‘emmer wheat’, Akkadian kunšu, kunāšu
Line 4
di-de-ru 10 => √ddr *dideru ‘oats’, Akkadian dišarru ‘wild oats’
[note that Semitic *d_ is rendered by a stop]
Line 5
qe-ra2-u 7 => √qly *qelayu ‘roasted (cereals)’, Akkadian qalû
Line 6 [vacat]
A perfectly ordinary accountancy tablet, as most Linear A (or B) tablets.

Ko Za 1
First, it should be noted that Ko Za 1 belongs to a set of stereotyped inscriptions found on libation bowls. They differ in the presence or absence of some words, but on the whole, they all follow the same pattern. There are about 20 such inscriptions exhibiting a number of variants with different lengths.

Next, two pairs of signs have debatable readings.
The first pair is ja / ba, both of which are squares with two horizontal lines inside the square. As a rule, the reading ba is to be preferred.
The second pair is i / se both of which look like a four-tooth fork, with the teeth at the top of the sign. As a rule, the reading se is to be preferred.
Here, on account of the morphology of Hurrian, 301 is to be read niw.

So as a first step, we can segment:
attaini- "father"
-(iwwa)- "my"
-ba Dative case-marker
tu-ru-sa "virile"
du-pu-re "strong"
both seem to be used as adverbials, in Instrumental case,
se-da-a "curse", probably a Gerundive "cursing"
u-na- "comes"
-ka-na-si "child", std Hurrian is han-, the word seems to be in Genitive case.
the segmentation of u-na-ka-na-si in two words is supported by the fact some other inscriptions are in plural u-na-ra = std Hurrian una-lla.
Here, the verb un- "to come" is singular.
the word a-bi "head" is missing in this inscription but is present elsewhere.
se-pi-na-ma "conjuring", from Semitic wasapu, with mobile w-, a borrowing
si-ru-te, is probably siruste Gerundive = "confirming"
So these inscriptions on Libation bowls found in mountain top sanctuaries are basically formulas of curse, conjuration and confirmation.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

unread,
Nov 21, 2019, 7:36:10 AM11/21/19
to
Here's a test case for you, Franz. This is a list of items I bought
from supermarket on 4th November:

> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> TOMME NOIRE 2.46€
> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> BANANE 1.47€
> OUTILLAGE 10.00€
> TOTAL A REGLER (6) 23.71€

How would you convert that into a readable narrative? If something's
just a list then that's all it is: there is no narrative associated
with it.

--
athel

Franz Gnaedinger

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Nov 22, 2019, 3:33:14 AM11/22/19
to
Now arrange all the details in a readable manner, the real test of a
successful decipherment. As for the language of the Minoans, Cyrus H.
Gordon solved the problem long ago. He recognized lists of items,
often ended by ku-ro. But since Minoan and Eblaite used the same sign
for R and L, kuro can also be read a kulo, and this reminded Gordon
of Arabic kullu 'sum'. From then on he was convinced that Minoan is
a Semitic language, and proposed his hypothesis at a symposium in London
in the year 1973, forty-six years ago. And was punished panushed with
icy silence. Only Robert Stieglitz and Jan Best followed him, and then
Walter Hinz in their wake succeeded in deciphering and _translating_
Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95. A successful decipherment can be
rendered as a readable translation, with additions in brackets,
like Dadumatha (gets) and Adu (Haddu Baal) (gets), or rather their
priestesses and priests get. When an Englishman reads for example
20 lb. he automatically reads 20 pounds. Analogously we have to render
context of a far bygone time with additions. The best is to render
such a text in the original, with a transliteration, with a literal
translation, and with a readable translation. Walther Hinz does that
in the case of HT95, and Derk Ohlenroth does that with the Phaistos Disc.

Franz Gnaedinger

unread,
Nov 22, 2019, 3:38:34 AM11/22/19
to
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 1:36:10 PM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Here's a test case for you, Franz. This is a list of items I bought
> from supermarket on 4th November:
>
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > TOMME NOIRE 2.46€
> > JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
> > BANANE 1.47€
> > OUTILLAGE 10.00€
> > TOTAL A REGLER (6) 23.71€
>
> How would you convert that into a readable narrative? If something's
> just a list then that's all it is: there is no narrative associated
> with it.
>

Athel Cornish Bowden, sock-puppet of Panu Petteri Höglund bought

Fine soup sellery six tons
fine soup sellery another six tons
black cheese
fine soup sellery again six tons
one banana
and tools for handling the 18 tons of soup sellery
for a modest and reasonable price of only 2371 euros

Arnaud Fournet

unread,
Nov 22, 2019, 4:31:28 AM11/22/19
to
Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?

Athel Cornish-Bowden

unread,
Nov 22, 2019, 4:38:42 AM11/22/19
to
Setting aside the misspellings, your "translation" makes as much sense
as your pretended translations of the Phaistos Disk. Even if it were
accurate, how would it help to understand the list?

For your information, JBON doesn't mean fine; SUP doesn't mean soup;
-SEL doesn't mean celery (let alone "sellery", whatever that may be);
6T doesn't mean 6 tons; TOMME NOIRE doesn't exactly mean black cheese,
as only the coating of Pyrenées cheese is black, the cheese itself
being almost white; BANANE doesn't (in this context) mean one banana;
the words you've added after "tools" are just fantasy (like the
fantasies we're are used to in your musings about "Magdalenian");
23.71€ doesn't mean 2371 euros.

This has been a useful exercise, as everything in your translation is
nonsense, much like everything else you write. If you can't understand
a modern supermarket bill, how can you expect to understand the
Phaistos Disk?

--
athel

Arnaud Fournet

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Nov 22, 2019, 4:44:38 AM11/22/19
to
Dear Athel, please stop your meta-babble. It's off topic.
you should know Magdalenian can solve everything. ;):)

Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Nov 22, 2019, 4:05:08 PM11/22/19
to
>> On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 1:36:10 PM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> Here's a test case for you, Franz. This is a list of items I bought>
>>> from supermarket on 4th November:
>>>
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> TOMME NOIRE 2.46€
>>>> JBON SUP -SEL 6T 1 3.26€
>>>> BANANE 1.47€
>>>> OUTILLAGE 10.00€
>>>> TOTAL A REGLER (6) 23.71€
>>>
>>> How would you convert that into a readable narrative? If something's>
>>> just a list then that's all it is: there is no narrative associated>
>>> with it.

>On 2019-11-22 08:38:32 +0000, Franz Gnaedinger said:
>> Athel Cornish Bowden, sock-puppet of Panu Petteri Höglund bought
>>
>> Fine soup sellery six tons
>> fine soup sellery another six tons
>> black cheese
>> fine soup sellery again six tons
>> one banana
>> and tools for handling the 18 tons of soup sellery
>> for a modest and reasonable price of only 2371 euros

Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:38:39 +0100: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>Setting aside the misspellings, your "translation" makes as much sense
>as your pretended translations of the Phaistos Disk. Even if it were
>accurate, how would it help to understand the list?
>
>For your information, JBON doesn't mean fine; SUP doesn't mean soup;
>-SEL doesn't mean celery (let alone "sellery", whatever that may be);
>6T doesn't mean 6 tons; TOMME NOIRE doesn't exactly mean black cheese,
>as only the coating of Pyrenées cheese is black, the cheese itself
>being almost white; BANANE doesn't (in this context) mean one banana;
>the words you've added after "tools" are just fantasy (like the
>fantasies we're are used to in your musings about "Magdalenian");
>23.71€ doesn't mean 2371 euros.

Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
slices).
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Nov 22, 2019, 4:16:15 PM11/22/19
to
He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!

António Marques

unread,
Nov 22, 2019, 4:22:04 PM11/22/19
to
Not only that, what he's come up with is a... list... like the ones he says
aren't readable translations.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Nov 22, 2019, 4:44:14 PM11/22/19
to
-SEL : -25% de sel (c'est-à-dire 75% de sel normal)

> six tranches (six
> slices).


--
athel

António Marques

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Nov 22, 2019, 5:13:11 PM11/22/19
to
You still shouldn't eat processed food! 😉


>
>> six tranches (six
>> slices).
>
>



Daud Deden

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Nov 22, 2019, 5:48:54 PM11/22/19
to

Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 23, 2019, 2:34:38 AM11/23/19
to
Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
A tranche is not a steak.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Nov 23, 2019, 3:17:13 AM11/23/19
to
From this highly informative list we learn that Homo athelensis of the Early
Concrete Age had been a two-legged furless mega-panda. Why a panda? because
of his preference for one single greenery, soup celary, apart from an occa-
sional banana. Why a mega-panda? because of the huge amounts of soup celary
he consumed. Actually, he can or must be subsumed under the human species.
Why a human being? because he used a language, if a strange French dialect.
Why a biped? because he used tools. Why furless? he cooked his tons of
fine soup celary, thus getting back the warmth he lost because of having
no fur. Ain't science marvelous? (From a lesson held by Prof. Leni at the
University of Lagany on Mars in 7129 AD)

Franz Gnaedinger

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Nov 23, 2019, 3:27:03 AM11/23/19
to
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?

I render what he wrotes, including the ku-ro kulo kullu 'sum' story.
Other scholars than you have no qualms rendering a decipherment also in the
form of a readable translation, for example the Hurrian stone tablet inscription
of a lion peg, ca. 2300 - 2159 BC (Art of the First Cieties, Metropolitan
Museum of Art)

Tishatal, ruler (endan) of Urkesh,
has built a temple for the god Nergal.
This temple, may the god Lubadag protect [it],
may Lubadag destroy [him]; may his god
not listen to his prayer. May the Lady of Nagar,
Shimiga (the sun god), and the storm god
[curse ten thousand times] the one
who would destroy it.

A banning formula of a similar archaic power as the one along the Tiryns
disc of the Phaistos Disc as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Nov 23, 2019, 4:08:16 AM11/23/19
to
As indeed you noted with your parenthesis.


--
athel

Athel Cornish-Bowden

unread,
Nov 23, 2019, 4:09:32 AM11/23/19
to
I suppose this is your notion of humour, but you're no better at humour
than you are at linguistics.


--
athel

Arnaud Fournet

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Nov 23, 2019, 4:11:53 AM11/23/19
to
Le samedi 23 novembre 2019 09:27:03 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?
>
> I render what he wrotes, including the ku-ro kulo kullu 'sum' story.

I'm interested to know what Hinz writes, not your own "rendition" of it.


> Other scholars than you have no qualms rendering a decipherment also in the
> form of a readable translation, for example the Hurrian stone tablet inscription
> of a lion peg, ca. 2300 - 2159 BC (Art of the First Cieties, Metropolitan
> Museum of Art)

yes, but this item is not an accountancy tablet, visibly and obviously.
Whereas HT 95 is visibly and obviously an accountancy tablet.


>
> Tishatal, ruler (endan) of Urkesh,
> has built a temple for the god Nergal.

It's not Nergal, but rather Pirig-gal "the Great Lioness", a war goddess.
Nergal is an invented reading that does not correspond to the signs.

> This temple, may the god Lubadag protect [it],

You missed one clause here: Whoever destroys the temple,

Franz Gnaedinger

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Nov 23, 2019, 5:38:15 AM11/23/19
to
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:11:53 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> I'm interested to know what Hinz writes, not your own "rendition" of it.

I send you a fotocopy if you tell me your address via e-mail.

> yes, but this item is not an accountancy tablet, visibly and obviously.
> Whereas HT 95 is visibly and obviously an accountancy tablet.
>
> It's not Nergal, but rather Pirig-gal "the Great Lioness", a war goddess.
> Nergal is an invented reading that does not correspond to the signs.

I render faithfully the translation given in the catalogue mentioned above.

> You missed one clause here: Whoever destroys the temple,

No, its included in: "may Lubadag destroy [him]"

Here is the combined information Hinz gives on HT95, side A followed by side B


(line A1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal

(line A2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;

(line A3) barley 20; emmer

(line A4) 10; oat 10; roasted

(line A5) grains 7



(line B1) Adu or Haddu (gets)

(line B2) barley 10 (measures); wheat from Mi

(line B3) Nu The 10 (measures); emmer

(line B4) 10 (measures); oat 10 (measures); roasted

(line B5) grain 10 (measures, a delicacy)

In the running text he explains every word, barley, wheat from Ebla,
emmer, oat, roasted grains - each of these terms a Semitic word.
A measure might have been ca. ten liters.



Arnaud Fournet

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Nov 23, 2019, 6:34:51 AM11/23/19
to
Le samedi 23 novembre 2019 11:38:15 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:11:53 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > I'm interested to know what Hinz writes, not your own "rendition" of it.
>
> I send you a fotocopy if you tell me your address via e-mail.
>
> > yes, but this item is not an accountancy tablet, visibly and obviously.
> > Whereas HT 95 is visibly and obviously an accountancy tablet.
> >
> > It's not Nergal, but rather Pirig-gal "the Great Lioness", a war goddess.
> > Nergal is an invented reading that does not correspond to the signs.
>
> I render faithfully the translation given in the catalogue mentioned above.
>
> > You missed one clause here: Whoever destroys the temple,
>
> No, its included in: "may Lubadag destroy [him]"

I'm a specialist of Hurrian.
I've studied this item.
I don't know what your source is, anyway, it contains several errors.


>
> Here is the combined information Hinz gives on HT95, side A followed by side B
>
>
> (line A1) Dadumatha . ideogram of cereal
>
> (line A2) millet 10; (wheat from) Mi Nu The 10;
>
> (line A3) barley 20; emmer
>
> (line A4) 10; oat 10; roasted
>
> (line A5) grains 7
>
>
>
> (line B1) Adu or Haddu (gets)

As explained before, this word a-du means "food rations".

Peter T. Daniels

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Nov 23, 2019, 9:52:47 AM11/23/19
to
(three such units)

> >He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>
> A tranche is not a steak.

Maybe you don't know what "ham steak" means at a US butcher's.

Over Here, a "slice of ham" is a thin slice sliced from a ham, and
about three slices constitute a single serving, usually with a gravy
or sauce made from the pan drippings, a bit of mustard, etc. Butchers
don't sell ham (or any other product) by the slice. Items that are
sliced at a deli counter (cheeses, cold cuts) are sold by weight,
not by number.

Peter T. Daniels

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Nov 23, 2019, 9:57:51 AM11/23/19
to
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:27:03 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:31:28 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:

> > Can you please provide what Hinz actually writes?
>
> I render

"render" is not "quote." "Render" is what you do with half-remembered,
and that half, inaccurately, conversations heard on the radio years ago.

> what he wrotes, including the ku-ro kulo kullu 'sum' story.
> Other scholars than you have no qualms rendering a decipherment also in the
> form of a readable translation, for example the Hurrian stone tablet inscription
> of a lion peg, ca. 2300 - 2159 BC (Art of the First Cieties, Metropolitan
> Museum of Art)

Which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the "shopping list"
that AF is talking about. And that Athel gave you a parallel for.

> Tishatal, ruler (endan) of Urkesh,
> has built a temple for the god Nergal.
> This temple, may the god Lubadag protect [it],
> may Lubadag destroy [him]; may his god
> not listen to his prayer. May the Lady of Nagar,
> Shimiga (the sun god), and the storm god
> [curse ten thousand times] the one
> who would destroy it.
>
> A banning formula of a similar archaic power as the one along the
> Tiryns disc of the Phaistos Disc as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth.

"Archaic"? Augustan Rome is also "archaic" because it too used
apotropaic inscriptions?

(Never mind what "Tiryns disc of the Phaistos Disc" might mean.)

Peter T. Daniels

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Nov 23, 2019, 9:59:19 AM11/23/19
to
See previous message for why "slices" seems a most unlikely translation
of "tranches" here.

Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 23, 2019, 11:01:07 AM11/23/19
to
Sat, 23 Nov 2019 06:52:45 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 2:34:38 AM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:16:13 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 4:05:08 PM UTC-5, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> >> Jambon (ham), qualité superieure, avec sel (salted), six tranches (six
>> >> slices).
>
>(three such units)
>
>> >He bought 18 ham steaks? Must have been quite a dinner party!
>>
>> A tranche is not a steak.
>
>Maybe you don't know what "ham steak" means at a US butcher's.
>
>Over Here, a "slice of ham" is a thin slice sliced from a ham,

How thin? To me, a steak is about 1 cm in thickness, and a "plakje" or
"tranche" more like 1 to 1,5 mm. In France and Germany usually
somewhat thicker than in the Netherlands.

>and
>about three slices constitute a single serving, usually with a gravy
>or sauce made from the pan drippings, a bit of mustard, etc.

Incomprehensible. What I understand as a "tranche" from a French
supermarket NEVER has any gravy.

>Butchers
>don't sell ham (or any other product) by the slice. Items that are
>sliced at a deli counter (cheeses, cold cuts) are sold by weight,
>not by number.

Strange world.

GT (which is know for it mistranslations) translates "een plakje ham"
as "a slice of ham" and "une tranche de jambon". No steak in sight.

Ruud Harmsen

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Nov 23, 2019, 11:05:52 AM11/23/19
to
Here's an an example of the thickness of Dutch "plakken", although the
picture doesn't show ham:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boterhamworst#/media/Bestand:Extrawurst.JPG