The End of Konac
Dušan Vukotić
Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
DV
p.s.
For the average intelligent only (Brainy included) ;-)
Dušan Vukotić
theme. You cannot reach new frontiers of knowledge without entering
the fields of unexpected and unknown. Do not let your life pass in
false beliefs and wrong postulates imposed by those who have never
really understand the way in which the human speech has been
developing for millenniums. :)
Maybe you need some additional information to get your brain-cells
ignited? ;-)
English canton, canteen, hut, and house; Serbian konak, katun
(billet), kuća (house; cf. Slov. hiša), kutija (box):
English night; Serbian noć;
English knit, net; Serbian konac, nit (thread, cord, fiber).
DV
Jack Campin - bogus address
> Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak" ("resting
place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman bureaucrat
in a colonized territory like Serbia).
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Dušan Vukotić
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > The English word 'end' is a cognate of the Slavic word 'konac' (end).
> > Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
>
> It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
> to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak" ("resting
> place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman bureaucrat
> in a colonized territory like Serbia).
Of course it is. Above Turkish 'konak' is a loanword from Serbian; cf.
Russian конечный/kanechniy (ultimate, ending)
Serbian konačiti (spend the night, lodging), konac (end); Czech konec
(end)
DV
Jack Campin - bogus address
>>> Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
>> It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
>> to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak" ("resting
>> place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman bureaucrat
>> in a colonized territory like Serbia).
> Of course it is. Above Turkish 'konak' is a loanword from Serbian; cf.
> Serbian konačiti (spend the night, lodging), konac (end); Czech konec
> (end)
Have you ever in your puff looked at a Turkish dictionary?
Dušan Vukotić
There is Serbian and Bulgarian syntagm "na koncu konca" (at the end of
a thread) that explains the relation between the word 'thread' (cord,
fiber) and the word 'end'. It means that at the end of a day (day
activities are understood as a thread) you must find a place where you
can spend the night (Serb. konak billet).
DV
mb
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> The English word 'end' is a cognate of the Slavic word 'konac' (end).
> >>> Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
> >> It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
> >> to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak" ("resting
> >> place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman bureaucrat
> >> in a colonized territory like Serbia).
> > Of course it is. Above Turkish 'konak' is a loanword from Serbian; cf.
> > Russian Ą{ĄÄĄ~ĄuĄČĄ~ĄćĄz/kanechniy (ultimate, ending)
> > Serbian konačiti (spend the night, lodging), konac (end); Czech konec
> > (end)
>
> Have you ever in your puff looked at a Turkish dictionary?
He don' need no steenkin dictionary. If it sounds more or less similar
it's "cognate" (see 1st paragraph) and don't you try to disturb the
flow of churbelgong.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Jan 17, 11:15 pm, Jack Campin - bogus address
>
> <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > The English word 'end' is a cognate of the Slavic word 'konac' (end).
> > > Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
>
> > It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish"ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
> > to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak" ("resting
> > place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman bureaucrat
> > in a colonized territory like Serbia).
>
no. it has the internal etymology explained above.
Dušan Vukotić
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> The English word 'end' is a cognate of the Slavic word 'konac' (end).
> >>> Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
> >> It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
> >> to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak" ("resting
> >> place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman bureaucrat
> >> in a colonized territory like Serbia).
> > Of course it is. Above Turkish 'konak' is a loanword from Serbian; cf.
> > Russian Ą{ĄÄĄ~ĄuĄČĄ~ĄćĄz/kanechniy (ultimate, ending)
> > Serbian konačiti (spend the night, lodging), konac (end); Czech konec
> > (end)
>
> Have you ever in your puff looked at a Turkish dictionary?
Don't get mad, please! :)
Turkish 'konak' is a clear-cut borrowing from Serbian! If you need
some additional explanations why don't you ask politely?
DV
DV
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -
Could you explain the history of the word 'konak' in Turkish, please?
DV
António Marques
>> The English word 'end' is a cognate of the Slavic word 'konac'
>> (end). Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
>
> It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
> to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak"
> ("resting place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman
> bureaucrat in a colonized territory like Serbia).
I did think koniec/konec/konac was slavic. Is it really from turkish?
How did it get to Poland?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Yusuf B Gursey
the etymological dictionary labels it as "Old Turkic". kon= means to
alight, settle on a place.
Yusuf B Gursey
> Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
>
> >> The English word 'end' is a cognate of the Slavic word 'konac'
> >> (end). Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
>
> > It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
> > to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak"
> > ("resting place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman
> > bureaucrat in a colonized territory like Serbia).
>
> I did think koniec/konec/konac was slavic. Is it really from turkish?
> How did it get to Poland?
the slavic word is independent of the the turkish owrd.
Dušan Vukotić
> Jack Campin - bogus address wrote:
>
> >> The English word 'end' is a cognate of the Slavic word 'konac'
> >> (end). Is there anyone who could explain how it happend?
>
> > It presumably isn't a cognate. Turkish "ko-" (v.t., "settle", "cause
> > to stop") -> kon-" (v.i., "stop", "settle down") -> "konak"
> > ("resting place", in particular an official residence for an Ottoman
> > bureaucrat in a colonized territory like Serbia).
>
> I did think koniec/konec/konac was slavic. Is it really from turkish?
> How did it get to Poland?
They found out (from secret and trustworthy sources) that Poland once
was a part of the Ottoman Empire!
DV
Dušan Vukotić
No, Yusuf, it is not!
DV
mb
You really have a serious wiring problem in the brain. Told about
konak, you respond about konec and its reflexes.
Dušan Vukotić
Read my earlier posts in this thread and you will eventually be able
to grasp why "thread" (Slavic konec) is celebrated as a "salutary
billet" (konak)
DV
António Marques
Oh... k.
Dušan Vukotić
It is not etymology it is just a basic fact. Turkish kon- means settle
and it's OK. I asked you could you explain where the word kon- came
from?
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
perhaps from ko= "to put"
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> the etymological dictionary labels it as "Old Turkic". kon= means to
>> alight, settle on a place.
> It is not etymology it is just a basic fact. Turkish kon- means settle
> and it's OK. I asked you could you explain where the word kon- came
> from?
We both told you. "Ko-".
As I said before, look at a Turkish dictionary. Open any page at
random and you will see how its derivational processes work. There
are very few isolated words in Old Turkic; basic roots are extended
by suffixes to form dozens of associated words. The process is far
more systematic than anything in Indo-European, and when a word has
spawned as many secondary forms as a typical Old Turkic root usually
has, you can be damn sure it's been in the language for a long time.
Dušan Vukotić
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> Could you explain the history of the word 'konak' in Turkish, please?
> >> the etymological dictionary labels it as "Old Turkic". kon= means to
> >> alight, settle on a place.
> > It is not etymology it is just a basic fact. Turkish kon- means settle
> > and it's OK. I asked you could you explain where the word kon- came
> > from?
>
> We both told you. "Ko-".
>
> As I said before, look at a Turkish dictionary. Open any page at
> random and you will see how its derivational processes work. There
> are very few isolated words in Old Turkic; basic roots are extended
> by suffixes to form dozens of associated words. The process is far
> more systematic than anything in Indo-European, and when a word has
> spawned as many secondary forms as a typical Old Turkic root usually
> has, you can be damn sure it's been in the language for a long time.
OK let us see the history of the Turkish ko-? You said it meant 'to
put'; could you explain why it meant 'to put'?
DV
mb
> On Jan 18, 11:02 pm, Jack Campin - bogus address
> > >>> Could you explain the history of the word 'konak' in Turkish, please?
Once more, ko[mak] is to put / place, ko[n][mak] is to place oneself /
establish oneself somewhere / stop somewhere, and at this point, the
person who can discuss with you the "why" of the magical meaning of a
root is either a psychiatrist or a loon of your sort. Not any rational
being.
If you are expecting anyone to answer "because it comes from Khrupp,
Bell or Goon" you may have to wait a longish time.
Paul J Kriha
news:dc5f1198-1bf0-499c...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
That's because he just finished a second bottle of "konak".
Paul J Kriha
news:ca60ce98-bc82-4215...@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
But of course it is.
"-kon-" is a higly productive stem known from Old Slavic,
inherited from PIE.
Just a few examples of -kon- reflexes in contemporary W.Slavic:
skonat - v. to die
skončit/ukončit - v. to finish
konec - n. end
končit - v. to end
konat - v. to be performing or to be dying (continual aspect)
vykonat - v. to accomplish
překonat - v. to overcome
koncovka - n. suffix in ultimate position
While "koňík" is a diminutive of "kůň" (horse), i.e. little horse, and
"koňák" is an augmentative of the same, a person tending horses.
And of course "koňak" is borrowed from French, cognac. :-)
pjk
Dušan Vukotić
>
> - Show quoted text -
Simply, if you do not know exactly the history of the words konak,
kon-, ko- you can't really prove or state anything at all.
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
and I later explained it.
Dušan Vukotić
You explained nothing. You just said that kon- meant "alight, settle
on a place". In Serbian, the word konak is far more transparent. It is
related to the following words: goniti (drive), gnjeti/gnječiti
(knead), nit/konac (thread), noć (night). It means that the word
'konak' is a clear-cut IE word (I already mentioned canton, canteen,
kitchen, kuća (house). Eventually, someone is going to ask, what is
the connection between konac (thread, fiber, cord) and konak (billet,
lodging)? In Serbian, konac is related to ukinuće (abolition,
elimination), uginuće (death) and okončanje (the end, finish).
Philosophically taken it means, if you had followed a thread (of
events etc.) you would certainly have reached its end. Moreover,
logically, when you reached the end there was a right moment for
resting (Serb. konak resting place).
One thing is very important here: how it happened that Serbian konac
(thread, cord, and fiber) became not only konak (billet) but also it
seems that konac "created" the Slavic word noć (night; Russ. ночь;
Czech noc, noční)? Yes, of course, when you have reached the end of a
"thread" you cannot do anything else - you must stop (and rest)! On
the other side, if you have reached the end of a thread you must be
entering the Nothing (Serb. ništa) or Nothingness (Serb. ništavilo).
Now we can clearly see that the Slavic noch (night) is equal to ništa
(nothing) and ništavilo (nothingness); i.e. Slavic "night" is the
place where "thread" ends and nothingness enters the scene.
Finally, if you could make a similar and closely understandable
parallel to 'kon-' in Turkish language as I made in Serbian than you
would be able to prove that the word 'konak' sprang from the Turkish
vocabulary. Etymology and linguistic in general must become serious
sciences as soon as possible; if not, we would be able to 'prove' that
"Martian language" was a substrate on which all the earthly languages
were based and developed.
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
I am not into th etype "evidence" you present. I don't believe in your
methodology and neither does mainstream linguistics. konak was present
in turkish before turks had contect with serbs and has an internal
turkic etymology for me that is enough. if it is not enough for you I
am not going to waste time over it.
> vocabulary. Etymology and linguistic in general must become serious
> sciences as soon as possible; if not, we would be able to 'prove' that
> "Martian language" was a substrate on which all the earthly languages
> were based and developed.
>
Dušan Vukotić
> I am not into th etype "evidence" you present. I don't believe in your
> methodology and neither does mainstream linguistics. konak was present
> in turkish before turks had contect with serbs and has an internal
> turkic etymology for me that is enough. if it is not enough for you I
> am not going to waste time over it.
Why didn't you quote Vasmer:
[..."кона́к I. "княжеский дворец у южн. славян", болг. кона́к "день
пути, гостиница; палаты; замок", сербохорв. ко̀нак -- то же. Заимств.
из тур. kоnаk "большой, красивый дом, дворец" (Радлов 2, 536 и сл.) от
konmak "жить"; см. Мi. ТЕl. 1, 334; Доп. 2, 151; Бернекер 1, 557...]
Vasmer also believed that Slavic 'konak' was the borrowing from
Turkish. Unfortunately, Vasmer's dictionary is an obsolete and often
invalide etymological source and every serious linguist knows that he
cannot take Vasmer's book as a reliable reference. Interesting, Vasmer
wrote that 'konak' is "княжеский дворец" (knjažeskiy dvaryec; the
castle of the prince), but he didn't realized that if the word konak
were of Turkish origin the same would apply to the Serbo-Slavic word
knez (prince; Russ. князь; from kneg; cf. Serb kneginja princess).
Not only that Vasmer hadn't seen the above illogicality but he
continued to fall into a complete confusion by adding that Slavic
'knez' was a borrowing from Ur-Germanic *kuningaz. Of course, any
sound-minded person would see that something was wrong: it would be
impossible that konak (castle) was of Turkish origin while konak's
owner - knez/kneg - was the "lord of Germanic provenience".
As I already told, konak is a clear-cut Serbo-Slavic and Indo-Europen
word that can easily be traced in many words as canton, Serb. konak
(billet), kuća (house), katun (hut), Slov. hiša (house), Eng. house,
hut. There are thousands and thousands of words that sprang from the
primeval reduplicated Gon basis. Finally, there are a great number of
Serbian words (beside konac thread) related to 'konak' like konačište
(the resting place; also known as kućište, from kunčište => kuća
house), okončati (finish, die, perish), konačno (finally), kančelo
(the roll of fiber)...
DV
Jack Campin - bogus address
> in turkish before turks had contect with serbs and has an internal
> turkic etymology for me that is enough.
I thought I'd try to find the "ko-" or "kon-" root in the Orkhon
Inscriptions, but I can't find them on the web. I'd have expected
such an important document to be there somewhere, with an English
or modern Turkish translation. Is it?
mb
...
> I thought I'd try to find the "ko-" or "kon-" root in the Orkhon
> Inscriptions, but I can't find them on the web. I'd have expected
> such an important document to be there somewhere, with an English
> or modern Turkish translation. Is it?
Yusuf B Gursey
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > konak was present
> > in turkish before turks had contect with serbs and has an internal
> > turkic etymology for me that is enough.
>
> I thought I'd try to find the "ko-" or "kon-" root in the Orkhon
> Inscriptions, but I can't find them on the web. I'd have expected
> such an important document to be there somewhere, with an English
> or modern Turkish translation. Is it?
konak is attested earliest in manichaean uyghur inscriptions acc. to
Clauson
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Jan 20, 2:47 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > I am not into th etype "evidence" you present. I don't believe in your
> > methodology and neither does mainstream linguistics. konak was present
> > in turkish before turks had contect with serbs and has an internal
> > turkic etymology for me that is enough. if it is not enough for you I
> > am not going to waste time over it.
>
> Why didn't you quote Vasmer:
> [..."кона́к I. "княжеский дворец у южн. славян", болг. кона́к "день
> пути, гостиница; палаты; замок", сербохорв. ко̀нак -- то же. Заимств.
> из тур. kоnаk "большой, красивый дом, дворец" (Радлов 2, 536 и сл.) от
> konmak "жить"; см. Мi. ТЕl. 1, 334; Доп. 2, 151; Бернекер 1, 557...]
>
> Vasmer also believed that Slavic 'konak' was the borrowing from
> Turkish. Unfortunately, Vasmer's dictionary is an obsolete and often
> invalide etymological source and every serious linguist knows that he
> cannot take Vasmer's book as a reliable reference. Interesting, Vasmer
> wrote that 'konak' is "княжеский дворец" (knjažeskiy dvaryec; the
> castle of the prince), but he didn't realized that if the word konak
> were of Turkish origin the same would apply to the Serbo-Slavic word
> knez (prince; Russ. князь; from kneg; cf. Serb kneginja princess).
>
that doesn't follow
VK
> Why didn't you quote Vasmer:
> [..."кона́к I. "княжеский дворец у южн. славян", болг. кона́к "день
> пути, гостиница; палаты; замок", сербохорв. ко̀нак -- то же. Заимств.
> из тур. kоnаk "большой, красивый дом, дворец" (Радлов 2, 536 и сл.) от
> konmak "жить"; см. Мi. ТЕl. 1, 334; Доп. 2, 151; Бернекер 1, 557...]
hotel, house, house of the local governor" is one of Turkish
borrowings in some South Slavic languages. Are you going to fall into
hysteria each time such word will be pointed out? :-) It is better to
get some source on Slavic borrowings in Turkish and read it on each
such case so to try to relax. :-)
One doesn't need to go into pre-history of Turkish: it is enough to
know that "konak" in its current meaning was not known to Old Serbian
until XV A.D. when first attested. Before then it is always the common
Slavic "dvor" (house, enclosed space with the house inside), "zarski
dvor" or "knjazhi dvor" respectively for "king's house".
Don't trust me, read old local translations of the Bible.
Dušan Vukotić
Please just don't get over-excited about my "hysteria"; it could be
harmful to your health. :-)
Do you really think that Slavs had only one word for a house (dvor)?
Read again what I wrote. I said that konak was born from an IE basis
(gon-/kon-). Can you understand that if you say that konak is the
Turkish loanword in Serbo-Slavic you are also saying that canton,
house and hut are the words of Turkish origin.
You seem not to be able to grasp what I am talkig about. Once again,
try to compare konak (billet), konačište (resting place), okončati (to
end), konac (end, thread)... Are you trying to say that all these
words didn't exist in Serbian until XV A.D.? Could you understand what
is the relation among words like Serb. kućanstvo (household),
gazdinstvo (household) Russ. хозяйство/hazyaystva, Serb, kuća (house)
and Slovene hiša (huose)?
Can you grasp that Serbian words konak (billet), katun (hut),
konačište (resting plase), kućište (household) and kuća (house)
belong to the words that sprang from the same source?
Of course, I do not exclude a possibility that Altaic languages were
developed on the same primeval bases as IE.
DV
VK
> > know that "konak" in its current meaning was not known to Old Serbian
> > until XV A.D. when first attested. Before then it is always the common
> > Slavic "dvor" (house, enclosed space with the house inside), "zarski
> > dvor" or "knjazhi dvor" respectively for "king's house".
>
> > Don't trust me, read old local translations of the Bible.
> Do you really think that Slavs had only one word for a house (dvor)?
First of all, "dvor" is not "a house", it has wider semantical field
of "dwelling place", originally "a dwelling place surrounded by walls
and having a secured pass through". For a house itself the common
Slavic word is "dom".
Secondly, to know exactly how did Slaves called this or that, it is
better to ask Slaves themselves. Take copies of old manuscripts and
read them: unless you are pre-postulating that anti-Bel-Gor-Gur and
pro-Turkish conspiracy started 1,000 or more years ago and that it was
actively supported by all ancient Slavic writers and translators ;-)
> Read again what I wrote. I said that konak was born from an IE basis
> (gon-/kon-).
No.
> Can you understand that if you say that konak is the
> Turkish loanword in Serbo-Slavic you are also saying that canton,
> house and hut are the words of Turkish origin.
No, I can not.
> You seem not to be able to grasp what I am talkig about. Once again,
> try to compare konak (billet), konačište (resting place), okončati (to
> end), konac (end, thread)... Are you trying to say that all these
> words didn't exist in Serbian until XV A.D.?
I will be glad to help you with such basics, but we need to cut a deal
first, so I wouldn't waste my time for writing and you wouldn't waste
yours for reading. The deal is simple: you have to say if you can
agree to the following two statements:
1) Words containing the same or similar combinations of sounds are
_not_ always, unexceptionably and strictly genetically connected.
Say matador, match, matelot and mater may not coming from "mother"
despite all of them are having "mat" sound combination.
2) People are not speaking the same language from century to century.
The grammar, vocabulary and word meanings may change and modern
Serbians are not speaking exactly the same language as X A.D.
If you think that you can agree on above without compromising your own
linguistical believes then the answer is easy - and I promise do not
ask any other deals out of you.
Dušan Vukotić
> > > One doesn't need to go into pre-history of Turkish: it is enough to
> > > know that "konak" in its current meaning was not known to Old Serbian
> > > until XV A.D. when first attested. Before then it is always the common
> > > Slavic "dvor" (house, enclosed space with the house inside), "zarski
> > > dvor" or "knjazhi dvor" respectively for "king's house".
>
> > > Don't trust me, read old local translations of the Bible.
> > Do you really think that Slavs had only one word for a house (dvor)?
>
> First of all, "dvor" is not "a house", it has wider semantical field
> of "dwelling place", originally "a dwelling place surrounded by walls
> and having a secured pass through". For a house itself the common
> Slavic word is "dom".
In this case I used the word "house" as a "common denominator" of any
possible dwelling structure.
Your "common Slavic" word 'dom' also exists in Turkish (Tur. dam /
small house, roof/; cf. Turkmen tam house; Russ. dom, damu) and you
should be more carefull before the bringing the final "verdict" whose
word is whose :-)
> Secondly, to know exactly how did Slaves called this or that, it is
> better to ask Slaves themselves. Take copies of old manuscripts and
> read them: unless you are pre-postulating that anti-Bel-Gor-Gur and
> pro-Turkish conspiracy started 1,000 or more years ago and that it was
> actively supported by all ancient Slavic writers and translators ;-)
>
> > Read again what I wrote. I said that konak was born from an IE basis
> > (gon-/kon-).
>
> No.
> > Can you understand that if you say that konak is the
> > Turkish loanword in Serbo-Slavic you are also saying that canton,
> > house and hut are the words of Turkish origin.
>
> No, I can not.
>
> > You seem not to be able to grasp what I am talkig about. Once again,
> > try to compare konak (billet), konaèi¹te (resting place), okonèati (to
> > end), konac (end, thread)... Are you trying to say that all these
> > words didn't exist in Serbian until XV A.D.?
>
> I will be glad to help you with such basics, but we need to cut a deal
> first, so I wouldn't waste my time for writing and you wouldn't waste
> yours for reading. The deal is simple: you have to say if you can
> agree to the following two statements:
>
> 1) Words containing the same or similar combinations of sounds are
> _not_ always, unexceptionably and strictly genetically connected.
> Say matador, match, matelot and mater may not coming from "mother"
> despite all of them are having "mat" sound combination.
No one with a sound mind would ever say that the words with the same
or similar sound structure must be genetically connected. On the other
hand, sometimes the sound structures of words could be completely
different but the words themselves could be closely genetically
related. Judging from your above writing and attitude I conclude that
you must have considered yourself to be a serious expert in tongue-
science. OK I respect your audacity, although I doubt it can be a good
ground for an open and unprejudiced discourse. :-)
> 2) People are not speaking the same language from century to century.
> The grammar, vocabulary and word meanings may change and modern
> Serbians are not speaking exactly the same language as X A.D.
I do not understand, what kind of question is this? Of course that
language/s is/are changing with time. Serbian also changed its
vocabulary and grammar through the centuries, but not in as much
"crucial" degree as one might have supposed...
DV
VK
> > of "dwelling place", originally "a dwelling place surrounded by walls
> > and having a secured pass through". For a house itself the common
> > Slavic word is "dom".
> In this case I used the word "house" as a "common denominator" of any
> possible dwelling structure.
ACK
> Your "common Slavic" word 'dom' also exists in Turkish (Tur. dam /
> small house, roof/; cf. Turkmen tam house; Russ. dom, damu)
Hey, I thought we cut a deal that "words containing the same or
similar combinations of sounds are _not_ always, unexceptionably and
strictly genetically connected" :-( ;-)
It doesn't mean that we have to jump to another extreme and sort out
all such words as occasional sound-alikes. Just let's keep things
quietly, slowly and carefully studied: that is the key in the
linguistics.
> > > You seem not to be able to grasp what I am talkig about. Once again,
> > > try to compare konak (billet), konaèi¹te (resting place), okonèati (to
> > > end), konac (end, thread)... Are you trying to say that all these
> > > words didn't exist in Serbian until XV A.D.?
Again: why are asking me? Don't take any "Usenet authority" as an
authority. St.Sava Serbian (XII A.D.) is here to help you: read his
books and letters.
> you must have considered yourself to be a serious expert in tongue-
> science. OK I respect your audacity, although I doubt it can be a
> good ground for an open and unprejudiced discourse. :-)
I do believe to have some knowledge in the domain of question, but as
any human knowledge it is limited. Still having a knowledge doesn't
mean that I have no right to express my opinion in the Usenet so such
right would be reserved for amateurs only ;-) At the same time I
believe I never applied to any "authority pressure" in my posts like
"silence everyone, it is so because I say so". If I have an opinion, I
have some facts and sources to explain why do I have such opinion.
> Of course that
> language/s is/are changing with time. Serbian also changed its
> vocabulary and grammar through the centuries, but not in as much
> "crucial" degree as one might have supposed...
Great, we are on the deal then. St.Sava Serbian is for your home study
then, and now we can read the first line in one of the most read books
in the world: I mean the Bible.
"Iskoni be Slovo", the book says, "In the beginning was the Word"
That is the original meaning of the word "ken" shared among IE family:
"the starting point, the beginning of everything". The meaning "end"
is the secondary one, developed by the same semantical pattern as in
the expression "go to the very end". So "the very end of everything is
the beginning of everything". To study the mentality of ancient people
this "end-beginning" transfer is enormously interesting btw.
From here we have Old Slavonic "iskoni" (from the beginning), Old
Russian "pokon" (a beginning), and now modern Ukrainian "kinec" (an
end), Russian "konec", Serbian "konac", Slovenian "koniec" etc.
After the semantical transfer Russian "nachalo" and similar words
appeared in Slavic languages where say Russian "nachalo" is from Old
Russian "nach[en]lo" where [en] is for so called "jus small", a
special letter denoting nasal e (similar to French in "temps") and
lost later so transformed to "a", and prefix "na" (on), so literally
"what is placed at the beginning", originally meant the arrowhead.
Again: don't take my words as true just because I say so. For each
form and for each meaning there are texts and samples of the relevant
epoch.
VK
girls; and saw only 69 married; and all this out of 1,034 cases it had
absolutely within its control?
The Inspector spoke of the _personal tickets_ given into the hands of
each girl, which if sent to the Protectorate at any time, would secure
a hearing for her before the Protectorate. It is also declared that
notice is posted up in every brothel in a conspicuous place, that no
girl can be detained against her will. We visited a place on Fraser
Street the night of February 2nd; quoting from our journal:
"There was a middle-aged woman in charge, with a baby beside her
on the couch where she was sitting. There were six girls present,
the oldest barely sixteen years old in appearance, and one between
fourteen and fifteen--a thin, immature little creature. We asked
about this young girl, and one of our interpreters overheard the
keeper instruct her to say she had been in the house two years.
Then we asked the girl her name, and the keeper told her to tell
us a different name from the one she first gave us. We saw hanging
on the wall, a black bag, which we were allowed to take down and
examine. It contained a board
VK
little girl bought and sold, aged 11 years, is a very intelligent
child, and described the negotiations for her sale with great
clearness."
The Chief Justice then went on to repeat the little girl's testimony
as to these "brokers of mankind," and the child's knowledge, from
personal observation of these purchases and sales, to which he adds:
"Let me here ask, Is the trade, or rather profession, 'broker of
mankind,' also a sacred China custom? I will not ask the queries
which would naturally arise in case the question were answered in
the affirmative. At present, however, I must say that, custom
or no custom, the practice of this profession is prohibited by
statute, and it is my duty to meet its exercise by punishment."
The prisoner was sentenced to two years' penal servitude. The Chief
Justice concluded his remarks on that occasion by replying to the
statements made in the Chinese petition.
He called attention to the Chinese resting their claim on the
temporary promise of Governor Elliott in 1841; of the fact that
they ignored the proclamation of the Queen in 1845. He said that
infanticide was also a Chinese custom in the same sense that slavery
was, on the words of the petition:
"Amongst the Chinese there has hitherto been the custom of
drowning their daughters. The Chinese threaten the increase of
this 'custom' of drowning children if their sale is put down....
I can only say that in case father, mother, or relative were
convicted of infanticide, Chinese custom would be no protection,
and, unless I am grievously mistaken, the presiding judge would
have no alternative but to sentence the perpetrator to death ...
the one custom is tolerated just as the other custom is tolerated,
and both alike or neither must be claimed as sanctioned by
Governor Elliott's pr
Dušan Vukotić
> > > First of all, "dvor" is not "a house", it has wider semantical field
> > > of "dwelling place", originally "a dwelling place surrounded by walls
> > > and having a secured pass through". For a house itself the common
> > > Slavic word is "dom".
> > In this case I used the word "house" as a "common denominator" of any
> > possible dwelling structure.
>
> ACK
>
> > Your "common Slavic" word 'dom' also exists in Turkish (Tur. dam /
> > small house, roof/; cf. Turkmen tam house; Russ. dom, damu)
>
> Hey, I thought we cut a deal that "words containing the same or
> similar combinations of sounds are _not_ always, unexceptionably and
> strictly genetically connected" :-( ;-)
We haven't "cut" anything yet, because we cannot apply one "measure"
in case of 'konak' and another when 'dom' is in question; or if we are
doing so we must point out why we are treating these two words
differently. In accordance to our "deal", both words (konak and dom)
should be treated equally; they both have the same or similar sound
structure in Slavic and in Turkic. Therefore, why 'konak' must be a
"Turkic loanword" and why is 'dom' an "original" Slavic word?
> It doesn't mean that we have to jump to another extreme and sort out
> all such words as occasional sound-alikes. Just let's keep things
> quietly, slowly and carefully studied: that is the key in the
> linguistics.
I agree. We should work it out with care an patience... step by step.
Eng. In the beginning was the Word
Russ. V nachale bylo slova
Serb. U početku beše reč
OCHS V nachal@ b@ slovo
Before I continue with my detailed explanation I would like to see if
you are able to understand that all the above words (English begining,
Russian and OCHS nachal@, and Serbian početak) are closely related?
DV
Dušan Vukotić
> Eng. In the beginning was the Word
> Russ. V nachale bylo slova
> Serb. U početku beše reč
> OCHS V nachal@ b@ slovo
>
> Before I continue with my detailed explanation I would like to see if
> you are able to understand that all the above words (English begining,
> Russian and OCHS nachal@, and Serbian početak) are closely related?
In addition, relation among English begin, gone and end;
Serbian počinjati (begin), načinjati/načeti (cut into), okončati
(finish), konac (end), konac (thread) and nit (thread)?
DV