Magdalenian vs Nostratic

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Jack Heitman

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Apr 23, 2020, 1:23:45 PM4/23/20
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Hello all,

I am new to sci.lang- indeed also new to the general study of philology so forgive me of any rookie transgressions in my knowledge or understanding.

In my research of Magdalenian culture, I have been unable to uncover much information regarding their spoken language. Most of the time I am eventually directed towards Nostratic and Eurasiatic families but I was wondering what opinion is generally held by academia..

Also, is Nostratic even scientifically accepted? I understand the methods of deduction and have read a decent amount of Bomhard's work- always good to hear other positions though.

Peter T. Daniels

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Apr 23, 2020, 4:04:37 PM4/23/20
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You'll want to look at Joseph Greenberg's *Indo-European and Its Closest
Relatives* and the literature that grew up around it. It followed his
*Language in the Americas*, which was taken much more seriously and
dismissed much more definitively. That in turn followed on his *The
Languages of Africa*, which claimed to classify the thousands of languages
of Africa into just four macrophyla. It has taken much longer for that
work to be deconstructed, because so much was unknown about African
languages when he was doing that work in the 1950s, but those phyla, too,
have not entirely stood the test of time.

Greenberg's "Eurasiatic" is similar but not identical to traditional
Nostratic, and he explains why.

Nothing can be known of "the" spoken language of Magdalenian culture.
It is unlikely in the extreme that everyone whose culture can be called
Magdalenian had a single language -- uniformity of language is a product
of the modern literate world and is not found in nature.

Your thread may have not achieved much traffic because "Magdalenian"
was an absurd linguistic hobbyhorse of a late prolific contributor
to sci.lang, and some might fear his effusions might have been being
revisited (d. Jan. 2020 of presumably natural causes).

Christian Weisgerber

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Apr 23, 2020, 6:30:07 PM4/23/20
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On 2020-04-23, Jack Heitman <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In my research of Magdalenian culture, I have been unable to
> uncover much information regarding their spoken language.

Nothing is known. The Magdalenian epoch was well before recorded
language and what little we can reconstruct from before that.

There is an excellent guest post "The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal
Europe" by Don Ringe on Language Log:
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980

> Also, is Nostratic even scientifically accepted?

It is not generally accepted by linguists.

Also, assuming a Proto-Nostratic language had existed, it would not
have been spoken over such a large territory as the Magdalenian
cultures. See Ringe above.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

Ruud Harmsen

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Apr 24, 2020, 2:01:26 AM4/24/20
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Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:04:35 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 1:23:45 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
>
>> I am new to sci.lang- indeed also new to the general study of philology so forgive me of any rookie transgressions in my knowledge or understanding.
>>
>> In my research of Magdalenian culture, I have been unable to uncover much information regarding their spoken language. Most of the time I am eventually directed towards Nostratic and Eurasiatic families but I was wondering what opinion is generally held by academia..
>>
>> Also, is Nostratic even scientifically accepted? I understand the methods of deduction and have read a decent amount of Bomhard's work- always good to hear other positions though.
>
>You'll want to look at Joseph Greenberg's *Indo-European and Its Closest
>Relatives* and the literature that grew up around it. It followed his
>*Language in the Americas*, which was taken much more seriously and
>dismissed much more definitively. That in turn followed on his *The
>Languages of Africa*, which claimed to classify the thousands of languages
>of Africa into just four macrophyla. It has taken much longer for that
>work to be deconstructed, because so much was unknown about African
>languages when he was doing that work in the 1950s, but those phyla, too,
>have not entirely stood the test of time.
>
>Greenberg's "Eurasiatic" is similar but not identical to traditional
>Nostratic, and he explains why.
>
>Nothing can be known of "the" spoken language of Magdalenian culture.
>It is unlikely in the extreme that everyone whose culture can be called
>Magdalenian had a single language -- uniformity of language is a product
>of the modern literate world and is not found in nature.

Like!

Which makes Franz's work ... well, del mortos nil nisi bono.

>Your thread may have not achieved much traffic because "Magdalenian"
>was an absurd linguistic hobbyhorse of a late prolific contributor
>to sci.lang, and some might fear his effusions might have been being
>revisited (d. Jan. 2020 of presumably natural causes).

Exactly. As I said, de mortuis nil nisi bonum.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Apr 24, 2020, 2:41:23 AM4/24/20
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That was exactly my first thought (and probably that of others) when I
saw the subject line of the new post. If Jack Heitman goes through the
archives over more than a decade he'll see what reaction any mention of
the "Magdalenian" language is likely to get.

>> (d. Jan. 2020 of presumably natural causes).
>
> Exactly. As I said, de mortuis nil nisi bonum.


--
athel

Arnaud Fournet

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Apr 24, 2020, 8:36:10 AM4/24/20
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You might be interested in reading this paper:
https://www.academia.edu/41606257/Disentangling_the_three_layers_of_lexicon_in_the_European_languages
My opinion is that some kind of Caucasic is likely as underlying language(s) of Magdalenian in Western Europe.
I've written a detailed review of Bomhard (2008):
https://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_1.1_Fournet_Review_of_Bomhard_2008.pdf
It might address your questions.

Jack Heitman

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Apr 24, 2020, 1:25:40 PM4/24/20
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Thanks for the response everyone and I will check out the sources mentioned.
From other threads I have peered into I have noticed that a linguist named "Franz" is not entirely liked....RIP?

I am just a student and evolving my understanding so I appreciate the help in learning. (@peter, christian, athel, arnaud)

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Apr 24, 2020, 2:09:42 PM4/24/20
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On 2020-04-24 17:25:37 +0000, Jack Heitman said:

> On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:36:10 AM UTC-6, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>> Le jeudi 23 avril 2020 19:23:45 UTC+2, Jack Heitman a écrit :
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I am new to sci.lang- indeed also new to the general study of philology
>>> so forgive me of any rookie transgressions in my knowledge or
>>> understanding.> >> > In my research of Magdalenian culture, I have been
>>> unable to uncover much information regarding their spoken language.
>>> Most of the time I am eventually directed towards Nostratic and
>>> Eurasiatic families but I was wondering what opinion is generally held
>>> by academia..> >> > Also, is Nostratic even scientifically accepted? I
>>> understand the methods of deduction and have read a decent amount of
>>> Bomhard's work- always good to hear other positions though.
>>
>> You might be interested in reading this paper:
>> https://www.academia.edu/41606257/Disentangling_the_three_layers_of_lexicon_in_the_European_languages
>>
>> My opinion is that some kind of Caucasic is likely as underlying
>> language(s) of Magdalenian in Western Europe.
>> I've written a detailed review of Bomhard (2008):
>> https://diachronica.pagesperso-orange.fr/TMCJ_vol_1.1_Fournet_Review_of_Bomhard_2008.pdf
>>
>> It might address your questions.
>
>
> Thanks for the response everyone and I will check out the sources
> mentioned.From other threads I have peered into I have noticed that a
> linguist named "Franz" is not entirely liked....RIP?

"Liked" is the wrong word. He wasn't especially disliked, but he was
generally regarded as a crackpot.
>
> I am just a student and evolving my understanding so I appreciate the
> help in learning. (@peter, christian, athel, arnaud)


--
athel

Arnaud Fournet

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Apr 24, 2020, 2:59:55 PM4/24/20
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Franz Gnaedinger was not exactly a linguist.
More a kind of back-to-the-past fancy writer.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Apr 24, 2020, 4:29:02 PM4/24/20
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He was not "not exactly a linguist", he was not a linguist at all, he refused to learn linguistics and had disdain for scientific linguistics and science in general. Such a basic concept as causality was too much for him to grasp.


Daud Deden

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Apr 24, 2020, 6:27:37 PM4/24/20
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Franz was a fine story-teller and self-identified as a 'Paleo-Linguist' especially skilled in paleo-lithic cave paintings, myth analysis, and paleo-numerology-calender analysis.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Apr 25, 2020, 3:56:15 PM4/25/20
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On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 1:23:45 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I am new to sci.lang- indeed also new to the general study of philology so forgive me of any rookie transgressions in my knowledge or understanding.
>
> In my research of Magdalenian culture, I have been unable to uncover much information regarding their spoken language. Most of the time I am eventually directed towards Nostratic and Eurasiatic families but I was wondering what opinion is generally held by academia..
>

It is impossible to say something definite on the language on the languages of Late Ice Age Europe

I would say some of the better work on Eurasiatic and Nostratic are suggestive but I would also go along with the mainstream view that it is very difficult to prove and sort out how much of the correspondences are just mere chance, a result of contact or genuine genetic relationship.

Jack Heitman

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Apr 27, 2020, 11:44:23 PM4/27/20
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On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 4:27:37 PM UTC-6, Daud Deden wrote:
> Franz was a fine story-teller and self-identified as a 'Paleo-Linguist' especially skilled in paleo-lithic cave paintings, myth analysis, and paleo-numerology-calender analysis.

I appreciate this response- I think it sheds a kinder light on his legacy.

Jack Heitman

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Apr 27, 2020, 11:52:40 PM4/27/20
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On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 1:56:15 PM UTC-6, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 1:23:45 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I am new to sci.lang- indeed also new to the general study of philology so forgive me of any rookie transgressions in my knowledge or understanding.
> >
> > In my research of Magdalenian culture, I have been unable to uncover much information regarding their spoken language. Most of the time I am eventually directed towards Nostratic and Eurasiatic families but I was wondering what opinion is generally held by academia..
> >
>
> It is impossible to say something definite on the language on the languages of Late Ice Age Europe
>
> I would say some of the better work on Eurasiatic and Nostratic are suggestive but I would also go along with the mainstream view that it is very difficult to prove and sort out how much of the correspondences are just mere chance, a result of contact or genuine genetic relationship.
>
Do you (or anyone in this thread) know of any sources that present the alternative views?

Arnaud Fournet

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Apr 28, 2020, 2:41:49 AM4/28/20
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Le mardi 28 avril 2020 05:52:40 UTC+2, Jack Heitman a écrit :
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 1:56:15 PM UTC-6, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 1:23:45 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I am new to sci.lang- indeed also new to the general study of philology so forgive me of any rookie transgressions in my knowledge or understanding.
> > >
> > > In my research of Magdalenian culture, I have been unable to uncover much information regarding their spoken language. Most of the time I am eventually directed towards Nostratic and Eurasiatic families but I was wondering what opinion is generally held by academia..
> > >
> >
> > It is impossible to say something definite on the language on the languages of Late Ice Age Europe
> >
> > I would say some of the better work on Eurasiatic and Nostratic are suggestive but I would also go along with the mainstream view that it is very difficult to prove and sort out how much of the correspondences are just mere chance, a result of contact or genuine genetic relationship.
> >
> Do you (or anyone in this thread) know of any sources that present the alternative views?

There are not that many people working on these issues of deep relationships.
Among those worth reading, though I do not necessarily agree with them, are Bomhard (on Nostratic), Bengtson (especially on Basque vs Caucasic) and the Moscow Starostin boys. I will immodestly add myself to them.
As a rule, all of them tend to consider that Basque is closely related to Caucasic (especially NE Caucasic = Daghestanian) and they consider that this group is not the same as "std" Nostratic (the macro-group that includes Indo-European).
In my opinion, the gap between Basque+Caucasic vs Indo-European is not as large and deep as the "communis opinio" (of the people mentioned above) holds.
Personally, I would bet that Magdalenian people used to speak a form of archaic Caucasic, ancestral to Basque.
One problem is that nobody has ever worked on reconstructing the ancestor of Basque and Caucasic. At present, we only have Bengtson's book on Basque that lists comparanda with Caucasic. It's not a reconstruction of the ancestor. It's comparative not etymological. And another issue is that not everything in Bengtson's book can be blithely accepted.
I've started writing an etymological dictionary of Basque in relationship with Caucasic, but this is only a work in progress at this point.
Besides, nobody has ever worked on sorting out substratic words in Western European languages that might be of Basquo-Caucasic origin.
For example, there's a well-known equation: Basque adar = Irish adarc "horn". People don't know what to know with that. There's plenty of other words like that.
Another point is the non-Italian section of Sardinian that looks substratic. These words have been listed and studied by Areddu, himself a Sardinian.
I think a serious review of Areddu's work is necessary to understand what to think of these words. I have a copy of his book, but I've not read it thru yet.
Another issue is that about half the words that exist in the non-Anatolian branch of Indo-European are probably not inherited from PIE and of adstratic and substratic origin. This mess (be it in Pokorny or Mallory-Adams) needs to be sorted out. I'm working on this, but sorting out 3000 pages of mess takes time.
Besides, we also have Etruscan. It seems that some features of Etruscan are Caucasic. For example, if we try to analyse the words Aprile, Maya and Acale (=June), a possibility is:
Aprile = *a-pr(a)-ide "first month"
Note that pr(a) is the same as PIE *per- => primus, first
Maya = second
The stem may-, mey- appears in a number of words that mean "four" or "two"
Acale = *a-kia-ide "third month"
From *ki "three".
If we accept this parsing, then Etruscan has the a-prefix of Caucasic.
Besides the ar-morpheme of plural clan > clen-ar is also attested in a number of NE Caucasic languages.
So on the whole, there's good reason to think that Western Europe used to be peopled by Caucasic or Para-Caucasic languages.
Hope this helps.

Ruud Harmsen

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Apr 28, 2020, 3:38:37 AM4/28/20
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
>Besides, nobody has ever worked on sorting out substratic words in Western
>European languages that might be of Basquo-Caucasic origin.
>For example, there's a well-known equation: Basque adar = Irish adarc "horn".
>People don't know what to know with that. There's plenty of other words like that.

Everybody who does SERIOUS etymology work, or has ever looked at its
results, knows that glaring similarities are NOT proof of remote
cognateship, only of closer relations.

Hungarian and its remote cousins in the former Soviet Union are VERY
different, though indisputably related. Finnish and Hungarian are even
more different, though ... idem.

So positing the similarity between adar/adarc as a clue for a much
deeper relatedness (not 2000/4000/6000 years, but MUCH longer ago)
immediately puts you in ranks of people like Daud Deden and Franz
Gnaediger, who don't/didn't know shit about etymology, and had/have no
intention whatsoever to ever learn.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

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Apr 28, 2020, 3:44:10 AM4/28/20
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
>Besides the ar-morpheme of plural clan > clen-ar is also attested in a number of NE Caucasic languages.

'A' is the definite article in Hungarian AND Portuguese, and the
indefinite article in English and Yiddish. Ergo: Hungarian and Hebrew
are essentially Indo-European if only you dig deeper and look at the
wider picture.

Makes sense! Congratulations.

Ruud Harmsen

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Apr 28, 2020, 3:46:13 AM4/28/20
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
>So on the whole, there's good reason to think that Western Europe used to be peopled by Caucasic or Para-Caucasic languages.
>Hope this helps.

We.Just.Do.Not.Know.

And.We.Will.Never.Know.

Simply because it's too long ago and there is too little evidence.

Is that so hard to accept?

Daud Deden

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Apr 28, 2020, 4:03:06 AM4/28/20
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Tank u Ruud, al jou woeste sal soos rose ruik.

dide.da...@wikipediaismygod.edu

Arnaud Fournet

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Apr 28, 2020, 5:36:08 AM4/28/20
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Le mardi 28 avril 2020 09:46:13 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Mon, 27 Apr 2020 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
> >So on the whole, there's good reason to think that Western Europe used to be peopled by Caucasic or Para-Caucasic languages.
> >Hope this helps.
>
> We.Just.Do.Not.Know.

We don't know * yet *.

>
> And.We.Will.Never.Know.

You belong to the category of nihilist obscurantist shitheads.
I hate them.

>
> Simply because it's too long ago and there is too little evidence.

No, false.
A matter of time and hard work.
Maybe you don't understand what "hard work" means.

>
> Is that so hard to accept?

yes, it's hard to accept because it's nihilist obscurantist crap.
It's like saying we'll never have a high-resolution picture of Pluto, because it's too far away and it's too hard to go there.
But we've done it, we have such pictures of Pluto.
Got it, shithead ?

Arnaud Fournet

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Apr 28, 2020, 5:37:00 AM4/28/20
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Add Aramaic to the picture, please.

Arnaud Fournet

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Apr 28, 2020, 5:40:43 AM4/28/20
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Le mardi 28 avril 2020 09:38:37 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Mon, 27 Apr 2020 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
> >Besides, nobody has ever worked on sorting out substratic words in Western
> >European languages that might be of Basquo-Caucasic origin.
> >For example, there's a well-known equation: Basque adar = Irish adarc "horn".
> >People don't know what to know with that. There's plenty of other words like that.
>
> Everybody who does SERIOUS etymology work, or has ever looked at its
> results, knows that glaring similarities are NOT proof of remote
> cognateship, only of closer relations.

I do serious work.
I don't need your preastee-preasta about epistemology. I know my trade.

>
> Hungarian and its remote cousins in the former Soviet Union are VERY
> different, though indisputably related. Finnish and Hungarian are even
> more different, though ... idem.

Crap,
you can make parallel sentences in Hungarian and Ob-Ugric.
Try to learn something before you waste your drivel on sci.lang.

>
> So positing the similarity between adar/adarc as a clue for a much
> deeper relatedness (not 2000/4000/6000 years, but MUCH longer ago)
> immediately puts you in ranks of people like Daud Deden and Franz
> Gnaediger, who don't/didn't know shit about etymology, and had/have no
> intention whatsoever to ever learn.

You're a nihilist obscurantist shithead.

Peter T. Daniels

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Apr 28, 2020, 8:58:03 AM4/28/20
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Wrong.

Is this the level of all your pronouncements about languages you know
nothing of?

Peter T. Daniels

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Apr 28, 2020, 8:58:41 AM4/28/20
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But in order to interpret Daud's statement, you need to go way back
in the archive and try to figure out what Daud means by "paleo-linguistics."
Whatever it is, it has nothing to do with historical linguistics or with
linguistics generally.

Italo

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Apr 28, 2020, 2:10:45 PM4/28/20
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Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:

<snip>
> Besides, we also have Etruscan. It seems that some features of Etruscan are Caucasic. For example, if we try to analyse the words Aprile, Maya and Acale (=June), a possibility is:
> Aprile = *a-pr(a)-ide "first month"
> Note that pr(a) is the same as PIE *per- => primus, first

IMO the Latin month name Aprilis derives (via Etruscan) from the Parilia spring festival.
And Parilia (Etr. parliu ?) resembles Hittite/Hattic Purulliya.. (besides the name these festivals have other similarities , such as the involvement of sheep herds)
































--

b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

Arnaud Fournet

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Apr 28, 2020, 3:35:22 PM4/28/20
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=> status = crap

>
> b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

b o y c o t t I t a l o's i d i o c i e s.

Daud Deden

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Apr 28, 2020, 7:15:04 PM4/28/20
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On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:58:41 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:44:23 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> > On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 4:27:37 PM UTC-6, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > > Franz was a fine story-teller and self-identified as a 'Paleo-Linguist' especially skilled in paleo-lithic cave paintings, myth analysis, and paleo-numerology-calender analysis.
> >
> > I appreciate this response- I think it sheds a kinder light on his legacy.
>
> But in order to interpret Daud's statement, you need to go way back
> in the archive
Peter, Franz referred to himself as a paleo-linguist less than a year ago here in Sci.lang. No "interpretation" is involved, he just said it. You arrn't feeling feverish, I hope.

Peter T. Daniels

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Apr 29, 2020, 9:42:17 AM4/29/20
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On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 7:15:04 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:58:41 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:44:23 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 4:27:37 PM UTC-6, Daud Deden wrote:

> > > > Franz was a fine story-teller and self-identified as a 'Paleo-Linguist' especially skilled in paleo-lithic cave paintings, myth analysis, and paleo-numerology-calender analysis.
> > > I appreciate this response- I think it sheds a kinder light on his legacy.
> > But in order to interpret Daud's statement, you need to go way back
> > in the archive

> Peter, Franz referred to himself as a paleo-linguist less than a year ago here in Sci.lang. No "interpretation" is involved, he just said it. You arrn't feeling feverish, I hope.

Yes, we know that he assimilated your word. He was very good at assimilating
new vocabulary that he learned of here.

You have never explained your use of the term, and his use of the term
was clearly not the same as yours.

Ruud Harmsen

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Apr 29, 2020, 1:24:12 PM4/29/20
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Tue, 28 Apr 2020 02:36:07 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
Big difference: Pluto is a physical reality. So if you manage to send
something there and make it send pictures, you have pictures.

Languages of 10ka 20ka 40ka ago are no longer there. Some may have
left traces. But if there are few to reconstruct anything, you're out
of luck. The rest is speculation, of phantasy.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Apr 29, 2020, 3:09:53 PM4/29/20
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On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 1:24:12 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Tue, 28 Apr 2020 02:36:07 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
>
> >Le mardi 28 avril 2020 09:46:13 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> >> Mon, 27 Apr 2020 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
> >> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
> >> >So on the whole, there's good reason to think that Western Europe used to be peopled by Caucasic or Para-Caucasic languages.
> >> >Hope this helps.
> >>
> >> We.Just.Do.Not.Know.
> >
> >We don't know * yet *.
> >
> >>
> >> And.We.Will.Never.Know.
> >
> >You belong to the category of nihilist obscurantist shitheads.
> >I hate them.
> >
> >>
> >> Simply because it's too long ago and there is too little evidence.
> >
> >No, false.
> >A matter of time and hard work.
> >Maybe you don't understand what "hard work" means.
> >
> >>
> >> Is that so hard to accept?
> >
> >yes, it's hard to accept because it's nihilist obscurantist crap.
> >It's like saying we'll never have a high-resolution picture of Pluto, because it's too far away and it's too hard to go there.
> >But we've done it, we have such pictures of Pluto.
> >Got it, shithead ?
>
> Big difference: Pluto is a physical reality. So if you manage to send
> something there and make it send pictures, you have pictures.

https://www.google.com/search?q=new+horizons+pluto&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS879US879&sxsrf=ALeKk02peuXI6ftIz24OW82gbgUewRMRsA:1588187327752&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRm4fsqo7pAhXJknIEHS--AnkQ_AUoAnoECBgQBA&biw=1230&bih=552

Daud Deden

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Apr 29, 2020, 10:06:42 PM4/29/20
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On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:42:17 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 7:15:04 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:58:41 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:44:23 PM UTC-4, Jack Heitman wrote:
> > > > On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 4:27:37 PM UTC-6, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> > > > > Franz was a fine story-teller and self-identified as a 'Paleo-Linguist' especially skilled in paleo-lithic cave paintings, myth analysis, and paleo-numerology-calender analysis.
> > > > I appreciate this response- I think it sheds a kinder light on his legacy.
> > > But in order to interpret Daud's statement, you need to go way back
> > > in the archive
>
> > Peter, Franz referred to himself as a paleo-linguist less than a year ago here in Sci.lang. No "interpretation" is involved, he just said it. You arrn't feeling feverish, I hope.
>
> Yes, we know that he assimilated your word. He was very good at assimilating
> new vocabulary that he learned of here.

Peter, you are either stretching meanings or misremembering. (I figure and hope you are perfectly well, but had to ask. I see that one symptom of covid-19 is 'loss of smell/taste'. Olfaction iirc has some direct connection to memory, but precisely what is beyond my ken.)

9/22/08 Franz @ 'Etymologies...fairy tales' thread

PIE scholars look out for sound
patterns, I look out for semantic patterns. Magdalenian
reaches deeper than PIE. I am getting attacked all the
time. The regulars in sci.lang see my experiment as
a hostile act, while I see my work as an expansion
of paleo-linguistics. Magdalenian and PIE are no
adversaries let alone enemies but friends, they complete
each other. But of course Magdalenian requires more
than just learning the International Phonetic Alphabet
IPA and a couple of sound laws, you must also be an
expert in archaeology and have a fine sensory for cave
art and other manifestations of the Ice Age people.
The new perspective of being obliged to learn more
than the IPA in order to become a (paleo-)linguist is
what upsets many people in sci.lang. Hope I gave you
a first introduction into a rich and promising field of
future studies on early culture of Homo sapiens sapiens.


> You have never explained your use of the term, and his use of the term
> was clearly not the same as yours.
>
> > > and try to figure out what Daud means by "paleo-linguistics."
> > > Whatever it is, it has nothing to do with historical linguistics or with
> > > linguistics generally.

Paleo-linguistics: study of ancient languages
Paleo-etymology: study of ancient words

Jack Heitman

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Apr 29, 2020, 10:42:45 PM4/29/20
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Lack of evidence is the true downfall- and speculation can only go so far.
But to a degree, I believe we should keep our minds open to new possibilities rather than shutting something down with such speed. Of course we can play a game of 'what-ifs' but it is not impossible that new methods of deduction or even new artifacts can be uncovered. I guess if we must find some bright side to the ice sheets melting around the globe it is this.

In the meantime, what is so harmful in researchers experimenting with hypothetical languages or drawing connections to archaic tongues without physical evidence? Is there certainty in the field that evidence will not be found?

Also, if held in the public view as speculation I do not see the issue- if it is preached as fact that is different.

Peter T. Daniels

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Apr 30, 2020, 9:09:01 AM4/30/20
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Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me for not having memorized (or read)
anything Franz wrote, or for supposing that you were embracing his
adoption of someone else's word as if what he did has any more validity
than what you do.

Peter T. Daniels

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Apr 30, 2020, 9:16:16 AM4/30/20
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"Such speed"? This sort of groundless speculation has been going on
for as long as there has been philology -- at least since the 16th
century.

course we can play a game of 'what-ifs' but it is not impossible that new methods of deduction or even new artifacts can be uncovered. I guess if we must find some bright side to the ice sheets melting around the globe it is this.
>
> In the meantime, what is so harmful in researchers experimenting with hypothetical languages or drawing connections to archaic tongues without physical evidence? Is there certainty in the field that evidence will not be found?

You introduced yourself as being new to the field. You'd do well to
begin with a basic textbook on historical linguistics. You can't do
better than the one we used in 1970, the second half of Leonard
Bloomfield's classic from 1933, called simply *Language*. (At that
time there was _no_ textbook of historical linguistics alone. W. P.
Lehmann's was far too sketchy.)

The contemporary understanding of language change as grounded in
synchronic variation (sociolinguistics) means you'll need a newer
book, such as the late Larry Trask's. (I think there were 3 editions.)

> Also, if held in the public view as speculation I do not see the issue- if it is preached as fact that is different.

Both of our "paleo"ists presented as fact.

Arnaud Fournet

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Apr 30, 2020, 11:39:05 AM4/30/20
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To Jack Heitman,

Don't worry.
PTD is an asshole and a bully.
He's an embittered Learned Donkey, who believes he knows everything but whose obsolete credentials passed their best-before date long ago.
Don't care too much about what that senile bully tells you.
Just a friendly piece of advice.

Christian Weisgerber

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Apr 30, 2020, 12:30:08 PM4/30/20
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On 2020-04-30, Jack Heitman <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In the meantime, what is so harmful in researchers experimenting with hypothetical languages or drawing connections to archaic tongues without physical evidence? Is there certainty in the field that evidence will not be found?
>
> Also, if held in the public view as speculation I do not see the issue- if it is preached as fact that is different.

Here's an example where the nonfactual nature was not adequately
communicated: The movie _Iceman_ (_Der Mann aus dem Eis_)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5907748/
which was inspired by the Alpine "Ötzi" mummy from ca. 3400-3100 BCE.

What dialogue there is in the movie is supposedly in the ancient
Rhaetian language as every text about the movie will tell you--
I guess it was in the press materials.

Unfortunately, Rhaetian is so poorly attested that there isn't even
agreement what language family it belonged to, much less enough
material to translate movie dialogue into. Also, it was spoken
about three millennia after Ötzi.

Whatever they made up for use in the movie cannot be Rhaetian and
it cannot be a language Ötzi might actually have spoken. It's as
historical as Klingon.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

Ruud Harmsen

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Apr 30, 2020, 1:23:23 PM4/30/20
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Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:09:51 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 1:24:12 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Tue, 28 Apr 2020 02:36:07 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
>> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
>>
>> >Le mardi 28 avril 2020 09:46:13 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
>> >> Mon, 27 Apr 2020 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
>> >> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
>> >> >So on the whole, there's good reason to think that Western Europe used to be peopled by Caucasic or Para-Caucasic languages.
>> >> >Hope this helps.
>> >>
>> >> We.Just.Do.Not.Know.
>> >
>> >We don't know * yet *.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> And.We.Will.Never.Know.
>> >
>> >You belong to the category of nihilist obscurantist shitheads.
>> >I hate them.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Simply because it's too long ago and there is too little evidence.
>> >
>> >No, false.
>> >A matter of time and hard work.
>> >Maybe you don't understand what "hard work" means.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Is that so hard to accept?
>> >
>> >yes, it's hard to accept because it's nihilist obscurantist crap.
>> >It's like saying we'll never have a high-resolution picture of Pluto, because it's too far away and it's too hard to go there.
>> >But we've done it, we have such pictures of Pluto.
>> >Got it, shithead ?
>>
>> Big difference: Pluto is a physical reality. So if you manage to send
>> something there and make it send pictures, you have pictures.
>
>https://www.google.com/search?q=new+horizons+pluto&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS879US879&sMxsrf=ALeKk02peuXI6ftIz24OW82gbgUewRMRsA:1588187327752&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRm4fsqo7pAhXJknIEHS--AnkQ_AUoAnoECBgQBA&biw=1230&bih=552
>
>>
>> Languages of 10ka 20ka 40ka ago are no longer there. Some may have
>> left traces. But if there are few to reconstruct anything, you're out
>> of luck. The rest is speculation, of phantasy.

Daud Deden

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Apr 30, 2020, 7:06:53 PM4/30/20
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Apology accepted.

Tavi Alexandre

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May 10, 2020, 12:30:52 PM5/10/20
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El dimarts, 28 abril de 2020 8:41:49 UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet va escriure:
> Le mardi 28 avril 2020 05:52:40 UTC+2, Jack Heitman a écrit :
>
> There are not that many people working on these issues of deep relationships.
> Among those worth reading, though I do not necessarily agree with them, are Bomhard (on Nostratic), Bengtson (especially on Basque vs Caucasic) and the Moscow Starostin boys. I will immodestly add myself to them.
> As a rule, all of them tend to consider that Basque is closely related to Caucasic (especially NE Caucasic = Daghestanian) and they consider that this group is not the same as "std" Nostratic (the macro-group that includes Indo-European).
> In my opinion, the gap between Basque+Caucasic vs Indo-European is not as large and deep as the "communis opinio" (of the people mentioned above) holds.
> Personally, I would bet that Magdalenian people used to speak a form of archaic Caucasic, ancestral to Basque.
> One problem is that nobody has ever worked on reconstructing the ancestor of Basque and Caucasic. At present, we only have Bengtson's book on Basque that lists comparanda with Caucasic. It's not a reconstruction of the ancestor. It's comparative not etymological. And another issue is that not everything in Bengtson's book can be blithely accepted.
>
I'm afraid Bengtson's work is a *crackpot* one, and most of his comparanda are simply wrong. The thing is Basque has tons of foreign words, mostly from Latin-Romance but also Celtic, and what remains of its native core is often hard to compare due to phonological evolution such as a massive loss of word-initial plosives. For example, we've got gau, gab- 'night' but afari, auhari 'dinner', a compound from -(h)ari 'meal'.

> I've started writing an etymological dictionary of Basque in relationship with Caucasic, but this is only a work in progress at this point.
> Besides, nobody has ever worked on sorting out substratic words in Western European languages that might be of Basquo-Caucasic origin.
> For example, there's a well-known equation: Basque adar = Irish adarc "horn". People don't know what to know with that. There's plenty of other words like that.
>
Considering the less spread variant abar 'branch', I link the Basque word to Nakh-Daghestanian *kˀĕmhV 'arc; arched part of body' (NCED 480), cfr. IE *kama-reH2 'vault'.

Daud Deden

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May 10, 2020, 8:01:43 PM5/10/20
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I copy pasted a bit from Tavi & Arnauds posts to the Paleo-etymology thread.

Gau ~ (mon)gualua/mengelap@Mly: dark, mongolu@Mbuti: endomed, mela@Grk: black

Daud Deden

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May 10, 2020, 8:22:14 PM5/10/20
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That can't apply to my Paleo-etymological work, which is a matter of comparison of modern/recent words from around the globe, matching when appropriate to the paleo-keyword, and sensibly speculating their shared origin based on dialect divergence. Non-fiction is more apt.

I haven't made claims about Magdalenian nor Nostratic, I study words as evolving societal artifacts, not (political-bound) "languages", within the scientific pursuit of human biology.

Daud Deden

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May 10, 2020, 8:26:00 PM5/10/20
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Christian, are there any wordlists for Rhaetian? Might be interesting.

Arnaud Fournet

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May 10, 2020, 9:06:22 PM5/10/20
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Le dimanche 10 mai 2020 18:30:52 UTC+2, Tavi Alexandre a écrit :
> El dimarts, 28 abril de 2020 8:41:49 UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet va escriure:
> > Le mardi 28 avril 2020 05:52:40 UTC+2, Jack Heitman a écrit :
> >
> > There are not that many people working on these issues of deep relationships.
> > Among those worth reading, though I do not necessarily agree with them, are Bomhard (on Nostratic), Bengtson (especially on Basque vs Caucasic) and the Moscow Starostin boys. I will immodestly add myself to them.
> > As a rule, all of them tend to consider that Basque is closely related to Caucasic (especially NE Caucasic = Daghestanian) and they consider that this group is not the same as "std" Nostratic (the macro-group that includes Indo-European).
> > In my opinion, the gap between Basque+Caucasic vs Indo-European is not as large and deep as the "communis opinio" (of the people mentioned above) holds.
> > Personally, I would bet that Magdalenian people used to speak a form of archaic Caucasic, ancestral to Basque.
> > One problem is that nobody has ever worked on reconstructing the ancestor of Basque and Caucasic. At present, we only have Bengtson's book on Basque that lists comparanda with Caucasic. It's not a reconstruction of the ancestor. It's comparative not etymological. And another issue is that not everything in Bengtson's book can be blithely accepted.
> >
> I'm afraid Bengtson's work is a *crackpot* one, and most of his comparanda are simply wrong. The thing is Basque has tons of foreign words, mostly from Latin-Romance but also Celtic, and what remains of its native core is often hard to compare due to phonological evolution such as a massive loss of word-initial plosives. For example, we've got gau, gab- 'night' but afari, auhari 'dinner', a compound from -(h)ari 'meal'.

Bengtson's last book on Basque is quite nice, though I do not agree with everything and I think more can be added to his comparanda.
The words for "dinner" are derived from *bag- not *gab- => a-bg-ari

Tavi Alexandre

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May 10, 2020, 11:51:22 PM5/10/20
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El dilluns, 11 maig de 2020 3:06:22 UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet va escriure:
> The words for "dinner" are derived from *bag- not *gab- => a-bg-ari
>
As I said before, the first element is gau 'night', which has a combinatory variant gab- in compounds, mostly found in Biscayan although some are more widespread, as gabon 'good night' (on 'good') vs. the minoritary gau on.

In fact, we're dealing with two different protoforms with loss of the initial
plosive (very frequent in Paleo-Basque): *ab-(k)ari > abari, ap(h)ari, afari and *au-(h)ari > auhari (LN), aihá(r)i (Z), aigári (R), with the shift u > i characteristic of Easternmost dialects, where gau > gai. The element *-(k)ari 'meal' can be also found in other compounds such as gosari 'breakfast', barazkari 'lunch', askari 'afternoon snack'.

Arnaud Fournet

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May 11, 2020, 12:16:04 AM5/11/20
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Typical Tavitesque crap.
The Basque variant words are based on *a-bg-ari, where *bag means "evening", as shown by Caucasic comparanda.
The variants -uh-, -ph-, -f- derive from *-bg-.

Tavi Alexandre

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May 11, 2020, 12:43:35 AM5/11/20
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El dilluns, 11 maig de 2020 6:16:04 UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet va escriure:
> Typical Tavitesque crap.
> The Basque variant words are based on *a-bg-ari, where *bag means "evening", as shown by Caucasic comparanda.
> The variants -uh-, -ph-, -f- derive from *-bg-.
>
Nonsense.

Tavi Alexandre

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May 11, 2020, 12:49:55 AM5/11/20
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Nonsense. *bag isn't attested in Basque except in your imagination.

On the contrary, gau 'night' < *gab has good comparanda:

Kartvelian *ɣam- 'evening, night'
Lezghian *χʕ:am:/*χʕ:an: ‘evening, night’
Sino-Tibetan *ɣVm(H) ‘dark, shade’

Arnaud Fournet

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May 11, 2020, 12:55:40 AM5/11/20
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Typical Tavitesque garbage.
Of course, only your own insane crap is gold...

Arnaud Fournet

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May 11, 2020, 12:57:18 AM5/11/20
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Avar: bog "supper, evening meal; evening"

Ruud Harmsen

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May 11, 2020, 1:41:39 AM5/11/20
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Sun, 10 May 2020 21:16:02 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
What is Basque happens to be unrelated to Caucasic?

Aren't you proving a theory with the results of another unproven
theory? A.k.a. circle reasoning?

Arnaud Fournet

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May 11, 2020, 1:57:16 AM5/11/20
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Le lundi 11 mai 2020 07:41:39 UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Sun, 10 May 2020 21:16:02 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
> <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
>
> >Le lundi 11 mai 2020 05:51:22 UTC+2, Tavi Alexandre a écrit :
> >> El dilluns, 11 maig de 2020 3:06:22 UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet va escriure:
> >> > The words for "dinner" are derived from *bag- not *gab- => a-bg-ari
> >> >
> >> As I said before, the first element is gau 'night', which has a combinatory variant gab- in compounds, mostly found in Biscayan although some are more widespread, as gabon 'good night' (on 'good') vs. the minoritary gau on.
> >>
> >> In fact, we're dealing with two different protoforms with loss of the initial
> >> plosive (very frequent in Paleo-Basque): *ab-(k)ari > abari, ap(h)ari, afari and *au-(h)ari > auhari (LN), aihá(r)i (Z), aigári (R), with the shift u > i characteristic of Easternmost dialects, where gau > gai. The element *-(k)ari 'meal' can be also found in other compounds such as gosari 'breakfast', barazkari 'lunch', askari 'afternoon snack'.
> >
> >Typical Tavitesque crap.
> >The Basque variant words are based on *a-bg-ari, where *bag means "evening", as shown by Caucasic comparanda.
>
> What is Basque happens to be unrelated to Caucasic?

There is no doubt that Basque is a branch of (North) Caucasic.
Read Bengtson's last book.
Even though not everything is good, enough good stuff has already been compiled by Bengtson to close the case.

Tavi Alexandre

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May 11, 2020, 7:59:49 AM5/11/20
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El dilluns, 11 maig de 2020 6:57:18 UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet va escriure:
>
> Avar: bog "supper, evening meal; evening"
>
Nothing to do with Basque.

Tavi Alexandre

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May 11, 2020, 8:21:38 AM5/11/20
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El dilluns, 11 maig de 2020 7:57:16 UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet va escriure:
> There is no doubt that Basque is a branch of (North) Caucasic.
> Read Bengtson's last book.
> Even though not everything is good, enough good stuff has already been compiled by Bengtson to close the case.
>
At best, Bengtson's work has 99% of misses and 1% of hits. An example would be Basque hartz 'bear', which he links to Nakh-Daghestanian *χHVr[tɕˀ]V ‘marten; otter’ (a Nakh-Dargwa isogloss). However, this word happens to be a genuine cognate to IE *H2rtk´o- 'bear', which was borrowed by Basque, probably from Celtic *arto- (Matasović).

Arnaud Fournet

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May 11, 2020, 11:51:58 AM5/11/20
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Look, people!
Typical Tavitesque baseless decree...

Daud Deden

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May 11, 2020, 6:33:12 PM5/11/20
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On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 7:59:49 AM UTC-4, Tavi Alexandre wrote:
> El dilluns, 11 maig de 2020 6:57:18 UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet va escriure:
> >
> > Avar: bog "supper, evening meal; evening"

Mbuangualua older form of mongolu@Mbuti: mother's moon dome. Mbuang mBOnGolu eve night


> Nothing to do with Basque.

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