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Arabic stress in muslim, muslima, Muhammad?
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Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 7:10:04 AM5/11/17
to
Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m? Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
l and m? Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
Is the count in
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
raasiinu/-a/-i ?
If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Peter T. Daniels
May 11, 2017, 7:32:16 AM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 7:10:04 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>
> In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
> it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
> book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
> including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
> but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
> l and m?
Good grief. A syllable is "heavy" if it's closed (like -lim-) or has a long vowel.
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>
> In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
> it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
> book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
> including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
> but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
> l and m?
Arabic has "doubly closed" syllables like "waqf," but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
> Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
> penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
> Is the count in
> https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-stress-in-arabic-words, different,
> i.e. not including case endings? That's because Teach Yourself never
> has the stress on the last syllable. "raaseen" is really
> raasiinu/-a/-i ?
>
> If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
> muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
>
> I think Muhammad is stressed mu-HAM-mad? Because -Ham- is a syllable
> with two consonants due to the gemination of the m?
> The strange thing is in Dutch we say MO-hammet (often even shorted to
> Mo); even Dutch speaking muslims themselves often say that, with or
> without a Morrocan accent. But it's wrong in Arabic, I suppose?
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 10:53:50 AM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 2:32:16 PM UTC+3, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 7:10:04 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
> >
> > In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
> > it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
> > book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
> > including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
> > but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
> > l and m?
>
> Good grief. A syllable is "heavy" if it's closed (like -lim-) or has a long vowel.
>
> Arabic has "doubly closed" syllables like "waqf," but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
In Classical Arabic only *in* "waqf" i.e. only in pausal forms
> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 7:10:04 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
> >
> > In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
> > it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
> > book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
> > including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
> > but last syllable is -lim-? Is it long because it has two consonants,
> > l and m?
>
> Good grief. A syllable is "heavy" if it's closed (like -lim-) or has a long vowel.
>
> Arabic has "doubly closed" syllables like "waqf," but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
and rarely when the medial vowel is /a:/ or /ay/ (not sure about
/aw/) and the last consonant of the syllable is geminated.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 11:08:13 AM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 2:10:04 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>
> In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
> it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
> book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
> including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
If the word is not pronounced in pause, you articulate the case ending,
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>
> In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
> it is long ; i.e. has a long vowel or two consonants." Because this
> book is for Classical / MSA, I suppose the syllables are counted
> including any case endings. So in muslim = nominative muslimu, the one
otherwise you don't. In modern recitations of modern texts, proper
names tend to be articulated in pause.
In Pre-Islamic poetry there was an older pausal rule where the final
short vowels where lengthened and the nunation of case dropped. In the
Qur'an there are only instances for final -a and the accusative being
articulated as a: in pause. Still, poets may still imitate the Pre-Islamic
style.
In terms of poetical metrics, the final syllable of a line
is always regarded as long.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 11:10:36 AM5/11/17
to
a pausal form.
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 11:30:03 AM5/11/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>Good grief.
I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
not be nice and informative.
I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
is not the same. Did you?
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>Good grief.
I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
not be nice and informative.
I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
is not the same. Did you?
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 11:35:02 AM5/11/17
to
>Good grief. A syllable is "heavy" if it's closed (like -lim-) or has a long vowel.
Vide in basso.
>Arabic has "doubly closed" syllables like "waqf," but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
>
>> Or should I divide the syllables as mus-li-mu, so the
>> penultimate -li- is short / non-heavy?
>
>Of course!
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 11:40:47 AM5/11/17
to
>but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjWXJlulab4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2MVHJIwcVs
First ever Umm Kalthum record I bought, in 1973 or some such. Fan for
ever, also due to the here very conspicuous strange tunings.
http://rudhar.com/musica/mqwm/mqwm-en.htm
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 11:45:46 AM5/11/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 17:38:20 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2MVHJIwcVs
This younger woman imitates the original quite accurately. I know
because I know the old record almost by heart. Phonetically, with
hardly an idea what it means.
scribeva:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2MVHJIwcVs
This younger woman imitates the original quite accurately. I know
because I know the old record almost by heart. Phonetically, with
hardly an idea what it means.
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 11:50:45 AM5/11/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 17:42:04 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>Thu, 11 May 2017 17:38:20 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2MVHJIwcVs
>
>This younger woman imitates the original quite accurately. I know
>because I know the old record almost by heart. Phonetically, with
>hardly an idea what it means.
Sigh. She's no longer with us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thekra
>Thu, 11 May 2017 17:38:20 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2MVHJIwcVs
>
>This younger woman imitates the original quite accurately. I know
>because I know the old record almost by heart. Phonetically, with
>hardly an idea what it means.
Peter T. Daniels
May 11, 2017, 11:52:25 AM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 11:30:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >Good grief.
>
> I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
> not be nice and informative.
>
> I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
> is not the same. Did you?
No, I did not.
> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >Good grief.
>
> I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
> not be nice and informative.
>
> I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
> is not the same. Did you?
The "good grief" was relying on a Teach Yourself, and for calling the syllables in
question "long."
Would you care to explain why the number of letters in Arabic is relevant to the
number of letters in Greek?
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 11:55:45 AM5/11/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 08:10:35 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
> "muslima", in reciting in High Classical style, muslimah is
>a pausal form.
>
>> > If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
>> > muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
But the same stress? Is that ta-marbuta syllable considered heavy or
short?
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
> "muslima", in reciting in High Classical style, muslimah is
>a pausal form.
>
>> > If muslim is stressed MUS-lim, how is that with the feminine form
>> > muslima(h/t)? Same stress or is it shifted?
short?
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 12:26:55 PM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 6:40:47 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
> >but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
>
> Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
> >but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
>
> Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
>
> Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
> Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 1:16:35 PM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 2:10:04 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>
> In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
That's Tritton's Teach Yourself Arabic which is exclusively the
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>
> In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
High Classical style.
"Modern Standard Arabic" is a living language, albeit with no
native speakers. Prescriptively it is almost indistingishable
fom Classical Arabic, but since it is a living language one
can describe actual usage and variations pop up especially
when it comes to the recitation of otherwise prepared written
texts.
Stress was not studied by the medieval grammarians, and hence
it is not explicitly prescribed. The stress patterns found
in textbooks are usually derived from the speech gathered
from Al-Azhar Quran reciters, but there is some variation
in the speech of other schools of Quran recitation.
The stress patterns of the formal speech of media
speakers, politicians and the like usually reflect
that of their native Neo-Arabic dialect.
Syllabification OTOH was fixed by poetry and the
traditional meters depend on it. Modern Formal Speech,
i.e. recited Modern Standard Arabic by and large
sticks to it. Some exceptions, such as superheavy
non-pausal syllables that may be found in the recitation
unassimilated foreign, modern or relatively modern
loanwords (usually European, some are Turkish or other
language in origin) and foreign names (some entering
the language because they are geographical or such).
The degree that the recitation of MSA resembles Classical
Arabic depends on the speaker and the subject.
The lowest register of MSA has pause after each word.
This is actually considered a "legitimate" form of speech,
it was probably the form of recitation of the earliest
poorly literate scribes as they struggled to read very
slowly or tried to guess the orthography of each word
they had in mind (this would explain the standard
orthography based on pausal forms). The high register
is theoretically the same as Classical Arabic, with much
variation in between.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 1:23:35 PM5/11/17
to
is low register MSA.
-mah is pausal, high register. long.
in context you parse -ma-tu short short (if unnunated).
or -ma-tun short long (nunated)
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 2:00:39 PM5/11/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
same, by the way, applies to Latin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Heavy_and_light_syllables
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreimorengesetz
>Would you care to explain why the number of letters in Arabic is relevant to the
>number of letters in Greek?
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 11:30:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
>> >Good grief.
>>
>> I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
>> not be nice and informative.
>>
>> I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
>> is not the same. Did you?
>
>No, I did not.
>
>The "good grief" was relying on a Teach Yourself, and for calling the syllables in
>question "long."
They call them long and immediately define the term. As heavy. The
>On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 11:30:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
>> >Good grief.
>>
>> I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
>> not be nice and informative.
>>
>> I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
>> is not the same. Did you?
>
>No, I did not.
>
>The "good grief" was relying on a Teach Yourself, and for calling the syllables in
>question "long."
same, by the way, applies to Latin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Heavy_and_light_syllables
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreimorengesetz
>Would you care to explain why the number of letters in Arabic is relevant to the
>number of letters in Greek?
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 2:05:38 PM5/11/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>Would you care to explain why the number of letters in Arabic is relevant to the
>number of letters in Greek?
No, I would not care. So I won't do it. :)
>number of letters in Greek?
Ruud Harmsen
May 11, 2017, 2:10:37 PM5/11/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 6:40:47 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>
>> >but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
>>
>> Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
>
>Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
initial consonants is impossible. To final ones and one initial one
can occur, but then there is always (practically always?) some short
vowel in between.
>> Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
>> Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.
>
>Exactly, that's "Egyptian Arabic" not "Classical Arabic" or "MSA"
But it still have the same phonotactics.
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 6:40:47 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>
>> >but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
>>
>> Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
>
>Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
initial consonants is impossible. To final ones and one initial one
can occur, but then there is always (practically always?) some short
vowel in between.
>> Seriously, one of the first bits of (Egyptian) Arabic was "lisabr
>> Heduud", prononced lisabr eHduud because of that rule.
>
>Exactly, that's "Egyptian Arabic" not "Classical Arabic" or "MSA"
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 2:27:05 PM5/11/17
to
features.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 2:30:01 PM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:00:39 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 11 May 2017 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
> >On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 11:30:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >
> >> >Good grief.
> >>
> >> I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
> >> not be nice and informative.
> >>
> >> I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
> >> is not the same. Did you?
> >
> >No, I did not.
> >
> >The "good grief" was relying on a Teach Yourself, and for calling the syllables in
> >question "long."
>
> They call them long and immediately define the term. As heavy. The
> same, by the way, applies to Latin:
"long" and "short" is how I learned them, first in terms of Arabic
> Thu, 11 May 2017 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
> >On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 11:30:03 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >
> >> >Good grief.
> >>
> >> I knew precisely which two people would reply, and which of them would
> >> not be nice and informative.
> >>
> >> I more or less expected who were going to tell me that Classic and MSA
> >> is not the same. Did you?
> >
> >No, I did not.
> >
> >The "good grief" was relying on a Teach Yourself, and for calling the syllables in
> >question "long."
>
> They call them long and immediately define the term. As heavy. The
> same, by the way, applies to Latin:
poetic meters as applied to (usually Ottoman) Turkish.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 2:33:45 PM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:10:37 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
> <ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
> >On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 6:40:47 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >>
> >> >but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
> >>
> >> Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
> >
> >Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
>
> Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
Since I said that it cannot occur, there are no examples.
> Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
> <ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
> >On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 6:40:47 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >>
> >> >but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
> >>
> >> Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
> >
> >Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
>
> Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
Yusuf B Gursey
May 11, 2017, 3:13:48 PM5/11/17
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 8:16:35 PM UTC+3, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 2:10:04 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
> >
> > In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
>
> That's Tritton's Teach Yourself Arabic which is exclusively the
> High Classical style.
>
> "Modern Standard Arabic" is a living language, albeit with no
> native speakers. Prescriptively it is almost indistingishable
> fom Classical Arabic, but since it is a living language one
> can describe actual usage and variations pop up especially
> when it comes to the recitation of otherwise prepared written
> texts.
>
> Stress was not studied by the medieval grammarians, and hence
> it is not explicitly prescribed. The stress patterns found
It's also the area of phoentics I am the weakest in, and
> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 2:10:04 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
> >
> > In my 1958 Teach Yourself, page 22, it says "on the penultimate when
>
> That's Tritton's Teach Yourself Arabic which is exclusively the
> High Classical style.
>
> "Modern Standard Arabic" is a living language, albeit with no
> native speakers. Prescriptively it is almost indistingishable
> fom Classical Arabic, but since it is a living language one
> can describe actual usage and variations pop up especially
> when it comes to the recitation of otherwise prepared written
> texts.
>
> Stress was not studied by the medieval grammarians, and hence
> it is not explicitly prescribed. The stress patterns found
stress patterns is normally not the thing I give priority
to when learning a language through a textbook. I usually
just pick it up by ear.
> in textbooks are usually derived from the speech gathered
> from Al-Azhar Quran reciters, but there is some variation
> in the speech of other schools of Quran recitation.
> The stress patterns of the formal speech of media
> speakers, politicians and the like usually reflect
> that of their native Neo-Arabic dialect.
>
Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
Arnaud Fournet
May 11, 2017, 3:19:24 PM5/11/17
to
Le jeudi 11 mai 2017 21:13:48 UTC+2, Yusuf B Gursey a écrit :
>
> I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.
>
> Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
> in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
> bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
> English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
> about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
> relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
> and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
> you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
> still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
> feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
> before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
> interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
> found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
> use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
> much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
> suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
> such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
> they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
> and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
> in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
Branded on the tongue, organs never lie, or do they?
>
> I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.
>
> Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
> in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
> bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
> English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
> about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
> relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
> and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
> you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
> still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
> feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
> before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
> interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
> found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
> use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
> much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
> suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
> such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
> they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
> and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
> in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
A.
Ruud Harmsen
May 12, 2017, 4:05:04 AM5/12/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 11:33:43 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
wasn't valid in Classical/MSA, but you meant three consecutive
consonants cannot occur in Classical/MSA.
So we agree. Sorry about my sloppy reading.
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:10:37 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
>> <ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>>
>> >On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 6:40:47 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >>
>> >> >but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
>> >>
>> >> Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
>> >
>> >Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
>>
>> Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
>
>Since I said that it cannot occur, there are no examples.
O wait, now I see I misunderstood you. I thought you meant the rule
>On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 9:10:37 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Thu, 11 May 2017 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
>> <ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>>
>> >On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 6:40:47 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Thu, 11 May 2017 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >>
>> >> >but there are no 3-consonant sequences.
>> >>
>> >> Really? Thanks, I never heard of that before!
>> >
>> >Not in Classical Arabic or so-called MSA.
>>
>> Any examples? I cannot imagine how 3 consonants could come about. Two
>
>Since I said that it cannot occur, there are no examples.
wasn't valid in Classical/MSA, but you meant three consecutive
consonants cannot occur in Classical/MSA.
So we agree. Sorry about my sloppy reading.
Ruud Harmsen
May 12, 2017, 4:25:03 AM5/12/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 12:13:44 -0700 (PDT): Yusuf B Gursey
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.
>
>Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
>in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
>bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
>English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
>about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
>relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
>and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
>you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
>still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
>feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
>before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
>interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
>found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
>use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
>much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
>suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
>such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
>they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
>and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
>in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
Puzzling indeed. And interesting.
I was once deemed to be African, based on my accent in Portuguese
(http://rudhar.com/poemas/deusa/deusa.htm), although I have never been
outside Europe, and when I listen to Portuguese speakers from Angola
or Mozambique on the web, I hear no difference between them and native
speakers from Portugal.
Recently I encountered this:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/taalkringportugees/permalink/1202922526482838/
http://www.publico.pt/multimedia/video/sotaques-que-celebram-a-lingua-portuguesa-20170505-010539
Portugal, India, Guinee-Bissau, Angola, Mozambique: all very much the
same.
Brazil: less different here than I otherwise have often heard.
Cabo Verde, Timor Leste: slightly different.
São Tomé e Príncipe: heard for the first time, quite different!
<ygu...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>I once had an experience that keeps puzzling me.
>
>Some time ago I was traveling with a Yemeni man in a bus
>in the States so I made some short chit chat in Arabic,
>bland bookish "Standard Arabic". Later we swithec back to
>English he complemented me on Arabic and I told him a little
>about myself and in passing I added "BTW I have some Arab
>relatives". He said "Wait, let me guess where they from"
>and then said "The must be Iraqi". "Well, yes but how did
>you know?" I asked. He responded "From your accent". I am
>still puzzled by this, since I did not use to my mind any
>feature peculiar to Iraqi colloquial (such as africated /k/
>before front vowels) and since I was speaking Standard Arabic,
>interdentals shouldn' be diagnostic and they are hardly only
>found in Iraqi speech (indeed Yemeni has them), nor did I
>use any vocabulary peculiar to Iraq and I didn't pick up
>much Arabic from my visiting relatives anyway. Rather I
>suspect it must be some less standardized feature of Arabic
>such as vowel quality or stress patterns I picked up, perhaps
>they are found in Iraq as areal features in common with Persian
>and Turkish or features that influenced the recitation of Arabic
>in Turkey and yet are still in the domain acceptable Arabic.
I was once deemed to be African, based on my accent in Portuguese
(http://rudhar.com/poemas/deusa/deusa.htm), although I have never been
outside Europe, and when I listen to Portuguese speakers from Angola
or Mozambique on the web, I hear no difference between them and native
speakers from Portugal.
Recently I encountered this:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/taalkringportugees/permalink/1202922526482838/
http://www.publico.pt/multimedia/video/sotaques-que-celebram-a-lingua-portuguesa-20170505-010539
Portugal, India, Guinee-Bissau, Angola, Mozambique: all very much the
same.
Brazil: less different here than I otherwise have often heard.
Cabo Verde, Timor Leste: slightly different.
São Tomé e Príncipe: heard for the first time, quite different!
Ruud Harmsen
May 12, 2017, 4:30:03 AM5/12/17
to
Thu, 11 May 2017 12:19:22 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
True.
But sometimes, if the origin of an accent isn't clear, or quite
unfamiliar, native speakers may form an idea of where it's from that
just isn't accurate at all. It happens.
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
But sometimes, if the origin of an accent isn't clear, or quite
unfamiliar, native speakers may form an idea of where it's from that
just isn't accurate at all. It happens.
Yusuf B Gursey
May 12, 2017, 5:16:16 AM5/12/17
to
Ruud Harmsen on 5/12/2017 in
<u7sahc51jmmjoaimc...@4ax.com> wrote :
In my case the guess was right, and I am most familiar with Iraqi
Arabic among the Neo-Arabic varieties, yet I just wasn't using it.
<u7sahc51jmmjoaimc...@4ax.com> wrote :
Arabic among the Neo-Arabic varieties, yet I just wasn't using it.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 30, 2019, 3:05:35 AM6/30/19
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 1:10:04 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
I re-read the thread today (found again via https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/vocarabe.htm), and as far as I can see and unless I missed it, it contains no simple and explicit answer.
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
Wiktionary then?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muslim#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85#Arabic
No answer there either.
Forvo?
https://nl.forvo.com/word/muslim/
No Arabic.
Dr. HotSalt
Jun 30, 2019, 7:22:58 AM6/30/19
to
On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 4:10:04 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
I recently saw a video of an imam giving a sermon in which he said several
> Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
times "O Muslim" as part of an exhortation. (I don't understand the language-
I was following along on the closed captioning.)
Each time the drew out the "s" to the point that I wasn't certain what he
was saying. If it weren't for the closed captioning I never would have
associated what he said with "Muslim".
Is that for dramatic effect (he seemed quite emotional)? Is there a
liturgical "dialect" in which that's stabdard and it's not done otherwise?
Dr. HotSalt
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 30, 2019, 8:59:49 AM6/30/19
to
predictable as in, say, Latin, Polish, Hungarian, or French (to name
four languages that each do predictable stress differently), and there
are simple rules. Of those four kinds, Arabic is most like Latin; it has
to do with vowel length and syllable closure.
skpf...@gmail.com
Jun 30, 2019, 9:47:24 AM6/30/19
to
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/msa-all-dialects-stress-patterns.710073/
'
Actually, come to think of it, there is phonemic stress in some dialects - especially at the morpheme boundaries:
Levantine:
تركتي
تركتيه
These are pronounced tarakti and taraktii respectively. The major difference between the two is stress on the second moving to the last syllable (with some compensatory lengthening). This changes the meaning from "she left" to "she left it". The vowel lengthening is automatic because in Levantine dialects you can't have stress on a final syllable which has no coda unless the vowel is lengthened.
'
Language is a messy thing and only retards like Peter T Daniels would make absolute statements about language like the above.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 30, 2019, 10:07:02 AM6/30/19
to
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 9:47:24 AM UTC-4, skpf...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 8:59:49 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 3:05:35 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 1:10:04 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
> > > I re-read the thread today (found again via https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/vocarabe.htm), and as far as I can see and unless I missed it, it contains no simple and explicit answer.
> > > Wiktionary then?
> > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muslim#Etymology
> > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85#Arabic
> > > No answer there either.
> > > Forvo?
> > > https://nl.forvo.com/word/muslim/
> > > No Arabic.
> > What's the question? In Arabic, stress is not phonemic, is just as
> > predictable as in, say, Latin, Polish, Hungarian, or French (to name
> > four languages that each do predictable stress differently), and there
> > are simple rules. Of those four kinds, Arabic is most like Latin; it has
> > to do with vowel length and syllable closure.
>
> There he goes again - sullying truth. I don't think Peter T Daniels lies and misinforms on purpose - they have become second nature to him.
>
> https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/msa-all-dialects-stress-patterns.710073/
The troll is too stupid to bother to find out that the original question,
> On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 8:59:49 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 3:05:35 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 1:10:04 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
> > > I re-read the thread today (found again via https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/vocarabe.htm), and as far as I can see and unless I missed it, it contains no simple and explicit answer.
> > > Wiktionary then?
> > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muslim#Etymology
> > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85#Arabic
> > > No answer there either.
> > > Forvo?
> > > https://nl.forvo.com/word/muslim/
> > > No Arabic.
> > What's the question? In Arabic, stress is not phonemic, is just as
> > predictable as in, say, Latin, Polish, Hungarian, or French (to name
> > four languages that each do predictable stress differently), and there
> > are simple rules. Of those four kinds, Arabic is most like Latin; it has
> > to do with vowel length and syllable closure.
>
> There he goes again - sullying truth. I don't think Peter T Daniels lies and misinforms on purpose - they have become second nature to him.
>
> https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/msa-all-dialects-stress-patterns.710073/
years ago, was about Modern Standard Arabic.
skpf...@gmail.com
Jun 30, 2019, 10:18:27 AM6/30/19
to
Eisenhower "We are not flying U2s over the Soviet Union"
[Russians shoot down a U2 and parade the captured pilot on TV]
Eisenhower - "oh, you mean THAT U2".
Unless Yusuf intervenes - the pile of steaming excrement Peter T Daniels has left on the newsgroup living-room floor stands.
DKleinecke
Jun 30, 2019, 1:24:08 PM6/30/19
to
skpf...@gmail.com
Jun 30, 2019, 1:35:53 PM6/30/19
to
https://www.academia.edu/8282052/Word_stress_in_Arabic
'
In some western dialects and dialectsof Oman, word stress is phonemic in disyllabic noun–verb pairs: initial stress in[’fihim] ‘understanding’ contrasts with final stress in [fi’him] ‘he understood’(Janssens 1972).
'
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jun 30, 2019, 1:40:13 PM6/30/19
to
--
athel
skpf...@gmail.com
Jun 30, 2019, 1:48:55 PM6/30/19
to
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Jun 30, 2019, 1:52:05 PM6/30/19
to
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 8:48:55 PM UTC+3, skpf...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> I'll reply to this so that it stays in the record (This Bowden, Cornish or otherwise might actually feel shame and delete this bit of obscene sycophancy) - white-boy assholes in solidarity - how touching.
How predictable you are. I was wondering how long it would take you to write an answer along these lines.
>
>
> I'll reply to this so that it stays in the record (This Bowden, Cornish or otherwise might actually feel shame and delete this bit of obscene sycophancy) - white-boy assholes in solidarity - how touching.
skpf...@gmail.com
Jun 30, 2019, 2:31:51 PM6/30/19
to
Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski
Jun 30, 2019, 2:48:48 PM6/30/19
to
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jun 30, 2019, 2:59:13 PM6/30/19
to
--
athel
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 30, 2019, 4:17:57 PM6/30/19
to
Sun, 30 Jun 2019 05:59:48 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 3:05:35 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 1:10:04 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>>
>> I re-read the thread today (found again via https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/vocarabe.htm), and as far as I can see and unless I missed it, it contains no simple and explicit answer.
>>
>> Wiktionary then?
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muslim#Etymology
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85#Arabic
>>
>> No answer there either.
>>
>> Forvo?
>> https://nl.forvo.com/word/muslim/
>> No Arabic.
>
>What's the question?
Can you read?
>In Arabic, stress is not phonemic, is just as
>predictable as in, say, Latin, Polish, Hungarian, or French (to name
>four languages that each do predictable stress differently), and there
>are simple rules. Of those four kinds, Arabic is most like Latin; it has
>to do with vowel length and syllable closure.
So why didn't you simply answer the question, if it is that simple?
Answer: because you enjoy trying to humiliate people. Except that it
doesn't work with me. It backfires on you.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 3:05:35 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 1:10:04 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>>
>> I re-read the thread today (found again via https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/vocarabe.htm), and as far as I can see and unless I missed it, it contains no simple and explicit answer.
>>
>> Wiktionary then?
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muslim#Etymology
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85#Arabic
>>
>> No answer there either.
>>
>> Forvo?
>> https://nl.forvo.com/word/muslim/
>> No Arabic.
>
>What's the question?
>In Arabic, stress is not phonemic, is just as
>predictable as in, say, Latin, Polish, Hungarian, or French (to name
>four languages that each do predictable stress differently), and there
>are simple rules. Of those four kinds, Arabic is most like Latin; it has
>to do with vowel length and syllable closure.
Answer: because you enjoy trying to humiliate people. Except that it
doesn't work with me. It backfires on you.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 30, 2019, 4:22:44 PM6/30/19
to
Sun, 30 Jun 2019 07:07:01 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
As is the discussion referenced, which apparently you didn't bother to
open. I did.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
open. I did.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 30, 2019, 4:40:19 PM6/30/19
to
On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 30 Jun 2019 05:59:48 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 3:05:35 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 1:10:04 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
> >> I re-read the thread today (found again via https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/vocarabe.htm), and as far as I can see and unless I missed it, it contains no simple and explicit answer.
> >> Wiktionary then?
> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muslim#Etymology
> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85#Arabic
> >> No answer there either.
> >> Forvo?
> >> https://nl.forvo.com/word/muslim/
> >> No Arabic.
> >What's the question?
>
> Can you read?
Why would you ask a question (years ago) about something that's completely
> Sun, 30 Jun 2019 05:59:48 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 3:05:35 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> On Thursday, May 11, 2017 at 1:10:04 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
> >> I re-read the thread today (found again via https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/vocarabe.htm), and as far as I can see and unless I missed it, it contains no simple and explicit answer.
> >> Wiktionary then?
> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muslim#Etymology
> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85#Arabic
> >> No answer there either.
> >> Forvo?
> >> https://nl.forvo.com/word/muslim/
> >> No Arabic.
> >What's the question?
>
> Can you read?
predictable? And then revive it now?
The question simply does not arise.
> >In Arabic, stress is not phonemic, is just as
> >predictable as in, say, Latin, Polish, Hungarian, or French (to name
> >four languages that each do predictable stress differently), and there
> >are simple rules. Of those four kinds, Arabic is most like Latin; it has
> >to do with vowel length and syllable closure.
>
> So why didn't you simply answer the question, if it is that simple?
you did and forgot the answer, why didn't you look it up again?
Even if you won't look in an actual book, you can easily find the answer
in your beloved "on line."
> Answer: because you enjoy trying to humiliate people. Except that it
> doesn't work with me. It backfires on you.
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 30, 2019, 4:41:51 PM6/30/19
to
addressing me. But how would I have known that if I hadn't looked at
the first message in the thread?
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 1, 2019, 2:01:36 AM7/1/19
to
Sun, 30 Jun 2019 13:40:17 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
which I knew about, as cited) were unclear to me. And still are,
because my question about them was left unanswered, and instead
drowned in quibbling whether heavy syllables may or may not also be
called long syllables.
>And then revive it now?
It is still unclear.
>The question simply does not arise.
It did for me. That's why I asked.
>Why didn't you look it up in ANY Arabic grammar book years ago, and if
>you did and forgot the answer, why didn't you look it up again?
>
>Even if you won't look in an actual book, you can easily find the answer
>in your beloved "on line."
If you had bothered to read me, you could have seen I did consult a
book. A paper book, even.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> > Which syllable of the Arabic word muslim bears the stress?
>Why would you ask a question (years ago) about something that's completely
>predictable?
The exact details of the application of the prediction rules (rules
>predictable?
which I knew about, as cited) were unclear to me. And still are,
because my question about them was left unanswered, and instead
drowned in quibbling whether heavy syllables may or may not also be
called long syllables.
>And then revive it now?
>The question simply does not arise.
>Why didn't you look it up in ANY Arabic grammar book years ago, and if
>you did and forgot the answer, why didn't you look it up again?
>
>Even if you won't look in an actual book, you can easily find the answer
>in your beloved "on line."
book. A paper book, even.
Ruud Harmsen
Jul 1, 2019, 2:12:57 AM7/1/19
to
Mon, 01 Jul 2019 08:01:37 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
"The accent rests on ---
(1) The penultimate syllable when it is long; i.e. has a long vowel or
two consonants. ki'ta:bun, ya'ku:nu "
muslimu, no long vowel; no two consonants? mus-li-mu, or muslim-u?
'muslim or mus'lim?
"(2) On the antepenultimate when it is long and the penultimate short;
when a word has three short syllables, 'ka:tibun, 'kataba."
Rule (2) would apply if (1) doesn't
scribeva:
>>And then revive it now?
>
>It is still unclear.
Anyway, A.S. Tritton, 1943/1958, Teach Yourself, hardcover, page 22.
>
>It is still unclear.
"The accent rests on ---
(1) The penultimate syllable when it is long; i.e. has a long vowel or
two consonants. ki'ta:bun, ya'ku:nu "
muslimu, no long vowel; no two consonants? mus-li-mu, or muslim-u?
'muslim or mus'lim?
"(2) On the antepenultimate when it is long and the penultimate short;
when a word has three short syllables, 'ka:tibun, 'kataba."
Rule (2) would apply if (1) doesn't
Peter T. Daniels
Jul 1, 2019, 7:33:26 AM7/1/19