port l>r and ital l>i change

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Marc Adler

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Aug 25, 2005, 8:56:57 PM8/25/05
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A few Romance phonetics questions.

1) When did the l->r change happen in Portuguese? (blanco->branco,
etc.)

2) When did the l->i change happen in Italian? (blanco->bianco, etc.)

3) Why didn't it happen in Spanish or French? (I understand that there
might be no answer to this.)

4) Aside from r and i, are there any other sounds l became in other
Romance languages?

5) Are there any examples of the reverse? (r/i->l and so on)

Thanks,
Marc

Alan

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Aug 25, 2005, 10:42:31 PM8/25/05
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"Marc Adler" <marc....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125017817.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

As for your question #5 (r>l) --- it's quite common in Cuban Spanish for the
[r] to be pronounced pretty darn close to an [l];
e.g. Roberto becomes Lobelto .... don't know if that shift is true is all
vocalic environments, though


Ruud Harmsen

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Aug 26, 2005, 2:51:44 AM8/26/05
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25 Aug 2005 17:56:57 -0700: "Marc Adler" <marc....@gmail.com>: in
sci.lang:

>A few Romance phonetics questions.
>
>1) When did the l->r change happen in Portuguese? (blanco->branco,
>etc.)

Don't know. But it was certainly earlier than Camões.

>5) Are there any examples of the reverse? (r/i->l and so on)

Portuguese dictionaries list a word 'frol', which I think was once
'flor'.
And perhaps pt. and es. 'azul' vs. fr. 'azur' is such a case?
And 'south' is 'sul' in pt, 'sur' in es., and 'sud' in fr.
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com

Miguel Carrasquer

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Aug 26, 2005, 4:19:32 AM8/26/05
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On 25 Aug 2005 17:56:57 -0700, "Marc Adler"
<marc....@gmail.com> wrote:

>A few Romance phonetics questions.
>
>1) When did the l->r change happen in Portuguese? (blanco->branco,
>etc.)

After the split from the other Iberian Romance languages.

>2) When did the l->i change happen in Italian? (blanco->bianco, etc.)

That one is very early. In all initial sequences Cl- the l
was palatalized. In Italian, pl^-, bl^-, fl^-, kl^- and
gl^- developed to pj-, bj-, fj-, kj- and gj- (writen pi-,
bi-, fi-, chi-, ghi-). Elsewhere, the palatalization was
partially or wholly lost. Romanian has retained it only for
velar consonants (Arom. kl^-, gl^-, Rom. kj- (chi-), gj-
(ghi-)). Spanish and Portuguese have retained it only for
voiceless consonants [before the accent] (kl-, pl-, fl- >
llave/chave, lleno/cheio, llama/chama).

>3) Why didn't it happen in Spanish or French? (I understand that there
>might be no answer to this.)

In French, Occitan/Catalan and Rhaetic the palatalization
was wholly lost, although the northwesternmost Catalan
dialects have kl^-, pl^- (cllau, plle(n) for Cat. clau,
ple).

>4) Aside from r and i, are there any other sounds l became in other
>Romance languages?

Palatalized l (from li, gl, ll, depending on the language)
remains word-internally as Ita. <gl>, Fr. <ill>, Spa. <ll>,
etc. In Spanish, old /l^/ becomes /z^/ and then /s^/ > /x/,
as in folia > hoja /oxa/. As we saw above, in Port. /Cl^-/
becomes /c^-/ > /s^-/.

A velarized l after a vowel and before a consonant becomes
/w/ in French (and Modern Brazilian). altus > (h)aut, etc.

Geminate /ll/ becomes /l^/ in Spanish and Catalan. In
Sicily (and I think Sardinia), it becomes a retroflex /d.d./
(bellu > bed.d.u).

>5) Are there any examples of the reverse? (r/i->l and so on)

Spa. periculum > peligro.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
m...@wxs.nl

Ekkehard Dengler

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Aug 26, 2005, 6:08:40 AM8/26/05
to

Marc Adler schrieb:

> A few Romance phonetics questions.
>
> 1) When did the l->r change happen in Portuguese? (blanco->branco,
> etc.)

According to Paul Teyssier's "História da Língua Portuguesa", "l" in
word-initial consonant clusters changed to "r" very early on, at a stage
where Portuguese and Galician were still one language. In fact, this is one
of the first sound changes he deals with under "Do século VIII ao XII: a
*emergência* do galego-português".
He also states, however, that "l" > "r" was largely restricted to words used
in a relatively formal register, the normal vernacular development being
"voiceless consonant + l > ch", e.g. "clave" > "chave", "clamar" > "chamar".
(I believe Galician has "cramar", though.) In scholarly words such as
"século", "l" apparently didn't undergo any change at all.

> 3) Why didn't it happen in Spanish or French? (I understand that there
> might be no answer to this.)

This isn't really an explanation, but still relevant, I think: While "l"
became "r" in word-initial clusters, intervocalic "l" was vocalised, i.e.
disappeared ("mala" > "maa" > "má"), which could be an indication that "l"
was pronounced without any real closure. A phonetician could probably tell
you more.

> 5) Are there any examples of the reverse? (r/i->l and so on)

It isn't unusual for "l" to change places with another consonant (cf. Port.
"borboleta", Gal. "bolboreta"), but metathesis probably isn't what you had
in mind. I believe Cat. "cal" ("it is necessary") is due to hypercorrection
of l-vocalisation (cab > cau > cal), but I'm not sure and the intermediate
stage may be unattested.

Regards,
Ekkehard


Ekkehard Dengler

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Aug 26, 2005, 6:36:59 AM8/26/05
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Ekkehard Dengler schrieb:

> According to Paul Teyssier's "História da Língua Portuguesa", "l" in
> word-initial consonant clusters changed to "r" very early on, at a stage
> where Portuguese and Galician were still one language. In fact, this is
one
> of the first sound changes he deals with under "Do século VIII ao XII: a
> *emergência* do galego-português".
> He also states, however, that "l" > "r" was largely restricted to words
used
> in a relatively formal register, the normal vernacular development being
> "voiceless consonant + l > ch", e.g. "clave" > "chave", "clamar" >
"chamar".
> (I believe Galician has "cramar", though.) In scholarly words such as
> "século", "l" apparently didn't undergo any change at all.

"Pleno" would have been a more relevant example.


Ruud Harmsen

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Aug 26, 2005, 8:53:39 AM8/26/05
to
Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:08:40 +0200: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de>: in sci.lang:

>> 1) When did the l->r change happen in Portuguese? (blanco->branco,
>> etc.)
>
>According to Paul Teyssier's "História da Língua Portuguesa", "l" in
>word-initial consonant clusters changed to "r" very early on, at a stage
>where Portuguese and Galician were still one language. In fact, this is one
>of the first sound changes he deals with under "Do século VIII ao XII: a
>*emergência* do galego-português".
>He also states, however, that "l" > "r" was largely restricted to words used
>in a relatively formal register, the normal vernacular development being
>"voiceless consonant + l > ch", e.g. "clave" > "chave", "clamar" > "chamar".
>(I believe Galician has "cramar", though.)

In some words, both effects seem to have taken place, resulting in
different words in Portuguese. See my
http://www.rudhar.com/etymolog/prantoen.htm , which doesn't date the
changes (because I don't know them), but illustrates results.

Ruud Harmsen

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Aug 26, 2005, 8:57:19 AM8/26/05
to
Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:08:40 +0200: "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de>: in sci.lang:

>> 5) Are there any examples of the reverse? (r/i->l and so on)


>
>It isn't unusual for "l" to change places with another consonant (cf. Port.
>"borboleta", Gal. "bolboreta"),

Is Spanish arbol, Portuguese arvore, French arbre another example of
this?

Ruud Harmsen

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Aug 26, 2005, 9:20:52 AM8/26/05
to
Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:57:19 +0200: Ruud Harmsen
<realemail...@rudhar.com.invalid>: in sci.lang:

>Is Spanish arbol, Portuguese arvore, French arbre another example of
>this?

Correct spellings are árbol, árvore and arbre, of course.

Ekkehard Dengler

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Aug 26, 2005, 9:24:14 AM8/26/05
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Ruud Harmsen schrieb:

Span. "įrbol" (< Lat. "arbor") seems to be the result of dissimilation.

Regards,
Ekkehard


Miguel Carrasquer

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Aug 26, 2005, 3:36:15 PM8/26/05
to
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:08:40 +0200, "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de> wrote:

>This isn't really an explanation, but still relevant, I think: While "l"
>became "r" in word-initial clusters, intervocalic "l" was vocalised, i.e.
>disappeared ("mala" > "maa" > "má"), which could be an indication that "l"
>was pronounced without any real closure. A phonetician could probably tell
>you more.

Good one, that's another interesting development of /l/ in
Romance.

Intervocalic -n- also disappeared in Portuguese.

>> 5) Are there any examples of the reverse? (r/i->l and so on)
>
>It isn't unusual for "l" to change places with another consonant (cf. Port.
>"borboleta", Gal. "bolboreta"), but metathesis probably isn't what you had
>in mind. I believe Cat. "cal" ("it is necessary") is due to hypercorrection
>of l-vocalisation (cab > cau > cal), but I'm not sure and the intermediate
>stage may be unattested.

No, Cat. cal (inf. caldre, caler) is from Lat. cale:re "to
be hot, excited". Mihi calet "I'm hot for it, it matters to
me" -> Cat. em cal "I need to", cal "it is necessary".

Ekkehard Dengler

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Aug 26, 2005, 6:21:10 PM8/26/05
to

Miguel Carrasquer schrieb:

Hi Miguel.

Thanks for the correction. Here's another candidate: Apparently, Span.
"nalga" derives from Lat. *"natica":
"natica" > "nádega" [cf. present-day Portuguese] > *"nadga" > "nalga".

Regards,
Ekkehard


Miguel Carrasquer

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Aug 26, 2005, 6:42:38 PM8/26/05
to
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:21:10 +0200, "Ekkehard Dengler"
<ED...@t-online.de> wrote:

>
>Miguel Carrasquer schrieb:
>> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:08:40 +0200, "Ekkehard Dengler"
>> <ED...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>> I believe Cat. "cal" ("it is necessary") is due to hypercorrection
>> >of l-vocalisation (cab > cau > cal), but I'm not sure and the
>intermediate
>> >stage may be unattested.
>>
>> No, Cat. cal (inf. caldre, caler) is from Lat. cale:re "to
>> be hot, excited". Mihi calet "I'm hot for it, it matters to
>> me" -> Cat. em cal "I need to", cal "it is necessary".
>
>Hi Miguel.
>
>Thanks for the correction. Here's another candidate: Apparently, Span.
>"nalga" derives from Lat. *"natica":

>"natica" > "nįdega" [cf. present-day Portuguese] > *"nadga" > "nalga".

Yes. The expected Castilian form would have been nazga
(nadga), which is actually attested in Old Castilian. The
form nalga is a borrowing from Leonese, where in (secondary)
consonant clusters the first regualrly develops into /l/:
Leon. julgar, Cast. juzgar < Lat. judicare;
Leon. caldal, Cast. caudal < Lat. capitale
Leon. delda, Cast. deuda < Lat. debita
Leon. coldo, Cast. codo < Lat. cubitu
etc.

Herman Rubin

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Aug 26, 2005, 9:24:25 PM8/26/05
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In article <1125017817.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,

Marc Adler <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:
>A few Romance phonetics questions.

>1) When did the l->r change happen in Portuguese? (blanco->branco,
>etc.)

>2) When did the l->i change happen in Italian? (blanco->bianco, etc.)

>3) Why didn't it happen in Spanish or French? (I understand that there
>might be no answer to this.)

>4) Aside from r and i, are there any other sounds l became in other
>Romance languages?

There are many places in French where l -> u, often as
a semi-vowel. The plural of "cheval" is "chevaux", and
there are many similar.


>5) Are there any examples of the reverse? (r/i->l and so on)


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

António Marques

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Aug 31, 2005, 9:08:00 PM8/31/05
to
Ruud Harmsen wrote:

>> 1) When did the l->r change happen in Portuguese? (blanco->branco,
>> etc.)
>
> Don't know. But it was certainly earlier than Camões.

Probably somewhere near the 10th century. After original bl >
[tS], and before portuguese became written (as early written
examples already have br).

>> 5) Are there any examples of the reverse? (r/i->l and so on)
>
> Portuguese dictionaries list a word 'frol', which I think was once
> 'flor'.

flore > frole > X, reintroduction of [flor].
Plural froles and not frois, so probably introduced for the 1st time
after les > is.

> And perhaps pt. and es. 'azul' vs. fr. 'azur' is such a case?

From persian, so probably not relevant.

> And 'south' is 'sul' in pt, 'sur' in es., and 'sud' in fr.

Galician [sur].

Popular portuguese 'belboreta' [bE-].

Regarding n, consonantal syllable-final [n] disappeared everywhere in
portuguese, which is an extension of a general romance tendency.
--
am

laurus : rhodophyta : brezoneg : smalltalk : stargate

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