Preljocaj

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benl...@ihug.co.nz

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Sep 21, 2019, 6:07:32 AM9/21/19
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Angelin Preljocaj is apparently a noted choreographer. His name caught my eye
in this morning's paper. I wondered about its origin and pronunciation.
Wikipedia offers: "(French pronunciation: ​[pʁəʒokaʒ])". Why French? Because
he was born and still lives in France. But "He is of Albanian origin.
[citation needed]"

So the consonants spelled <lj> <c> <j> are apparently [ʒ] [k] [ʒ] for
the French. But if this were Albanian orthography they would be [lj] [ts] [j].
Unfortunately I hardly know word one of Albanian, and have no idea of
what Albanian surnames should be like. It may not even be Albanian.

Any suggestions?

António Marques

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Sep 21, 2019, 6:31:22 AM9/21/19
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The French pronounce foreign words as if they were written in French? Cf
Sarkozy.


benl...@ihug.co.nz

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Sep 21, 2019, 6:59:50 AM9/21/19
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OK, I guess that would account for everything in the French
pronunciation, except that <l> just gets lost.

However, I'm not sure if the name is in normal Albanian orthography
(or even if it is Albanian). Googling "Preljocaj" gets a large number
of hits, but all of them (as far as I bothered to check) are about this
one individual. So it's probably not an Albanian name as spelt, and not
a Romanian or Slovenian or some other name mis-identified as Albanian.
Reverse-engineering the French phonetics into what I think is standard
Albanian spelling (prëzhokazh) drew a complete blank.

Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 7:12:38 AM9/21/19
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<c> [⁠ʦ⁠]; j as in German, Croatian, Czech, Hungarian etc: [j]

But the Albanian spelling is

Angelin Preljoçaj

with a cedilla-c: ç ​[⁠ʧ⁠]​. (cf. the wiki-stub in Albanian:
<https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelin_Preljocaj>)

So, such makeshift adaptions as Prelyotchay or Prelyotchaï for French
& English would be better ones than [pʁəʒokaʒ]. This one is a (wrong)
French reading of a non-French word. A German spelling adaption
would look like this Prel(l)jotschaj. And in some Slavic spellings it
would look like this one: Preljočaj. In a Polish spelling either with
-cz- or with a <c> with a diacritic ("aigu") accent on it. In Kyrillitsa
renderings, perhaps Прелйoчай ПреЉoчаj. Serbian Kyrillitsa uses the same
<j> as in Croatian and Hungarian instead of the Russian and Bulgarian
<й> or the Ukrainian <ї>.

Tim

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 21, 2019, 7:18:28 AM9/21/19
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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 13:12:35 +0200: Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> scribeva:

>On 21.09.2019 12:07, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>
>>Angelin Preljocaj is apparently a noted choreographer. His name caught my eye
>>in this morning's paper. I wondered about its origin and pronunciation.
>>Wikipedia offers: "(French pronunciation: ?[p???oka?])". Why French? Because
>>he was born and still lives in France. But "He is of Albanian origin.
>>[citation needed]"
>>
>>So the consonants spelled <lj> <c> <j> are apparently [?] [k] [?] for
>>the French. But if this were Albanian orthography they would be [lj] [ts] [j].
>>Unfortunately I hardly know word one of Albanian, and have no idea of
>>what Albanian surnames should be like. It may not even be Albanian.
>>
>>Any suggestions?
>
><c> [???]; j as in German, Croatian, Czech, Hungarian etc: [j]
>
>But the Albanian spelling is
>
> Angelin Preljoçaj
>
>with a cedilla-c: ç ?[???]?. (cf. the wiki-stub in Albanian:
><https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelin_Preljocaj>)
>
>So, such makeshift adaptions as Prelyotchay or Prelyotchaï for French
>& English would be better ones than [p???oka?]. This one is a (wrong)
>French reading of a non-French word. A German spelling adaption
>would look like this Prel(l)jotschaj. And in some Slavic spellings it
>would look like this one: Preljo?aj. In a Polish spelling either with
>-cz- or with a <c> with a diacritic ("aigu") accent on it. In Kyrillitsa
>renderings, perhaps ?????o??? ????o??j. Serbian Kyrillitsa uses the same
><j> as in Croatian and Hungarian instead of the Russian and Bulgarian
><?> or the Ukrainian <?>.
>
>Tim

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

benl...@ihug.co.nz

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Sep 21, 2019, 7:30:45 AM9/21/19
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Thank you! That clears up a lot. But even with the corrected spelling
Google seems to turn up nobody but Angelin. Not a common name, then?
Do you know any more about it?

Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 8:11:39 AM9/21/19
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On 21.09.2019 13:30, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

>Thank you! That clears up a lot. But even with the corrected spelling
>Google seems to turn up nobody but Angelin. Not a common name, then?
>Do you know any more about it?

Unfortunately, I don't. (Neither Albanian, nor Slavic.)
I've noticed though that in Albanian surnames the -aj [aj]
suffix is quite common.

And by ... guessing, I'd think of something like "preliotis" (which
might look as a Greek word). Or think of pre- as a prefix. Perhaps
even of a South-Slavic borrowing; e.g. priloča seems to mean "added,
additional, supplement, surplus" & the like. (A "well-heeled, well-
to-do" person??) In Russian, "adjectival" circumstances seem to be
expressed with words starting as "pril".

Tim

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Sep 21, 2019, 8:28:58 AM9/21/19
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Nicolas Sarkozy made a visit to Hungary during his presidency. The TV
journalists seemed quite amused at the way the Hungarians pronounced
his name -- [ʃ] at the beginning; initial stress, etc.


--
athel

António Marques

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Sep 21, 2019, 8:53:58 AM9/21/19
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Looks more Slavic to me. Could it be Slovenian? Our resident Language Snob
should be able to figure it out in an eyeblink.

António Marques

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Sep 21, 2019, 8:56:23 AM9/21/19
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To me, the worst part is actually the stress (in this case or others). It
mangles the entire word beyond recognition.

Christian Weisgerber

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Sep 21, 2019, 9:30:07 AM9/21/19
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On 2019-09-21, benl...@ihug.co.nz <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

> Angelin Preljocaj is apparently a noted choreographer. His name caught my eye
> in this morning's paper. I wondered about its origin and pronunciation.
> Wikipedia offers: "(French pronunciation: ​[pʁəʒokaʒ])". Why French? Because
> he was born and still lives in France. But "He is of Albanian origin.

This does not appear to be a common surname anywhere. Google
searches principally bring up him and his sister.

There are several spelling variants. You may notice that the start
of the English Wikipedia entry actually has "Angelin Preljoçaj"
with a cedilla. That spelling is found in numerous places online,
but not overwhelmingly so. Albanian sources mostly use "Angjelin
Preljocaj", no diacritic, but an extra j in the first name. Since
lj strongly evokes Serbocroat, I tried "Preljočaj": that brings up
mostly Italian sources.

The French pronunciation given in Wikipedia is clearly a spelling
pronunciation. It more or less matches the few examples I could
find on YouTube; I hear [pʁɛʒokaʒ]. Not sure why the l is lost.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 9:34:34 AM9/21/19
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According to Hungarian spelling, <s> is always pronounced [ʃ].
(For the pronunciation [s], they use the spelling <sz>.)

Sárközy ['ʃa:r-kø-zɪ]

(sár "mud; clod"; perhaps also ref. to marshlands. Köz "between;
among(st)". In German, some of such concoctions might be pretty good
equivalents for this surname: "Mooser, Moosacher, Moospointner,
Moosinninger, Marschner" etc, at least in southern German dialects;
along with other ones, popular in Low German speaking areas.)

A "French" spelling would be "Charquezy/Charkeuzy/Charrekeuzi".

The -i suffix (meaning: "where from"; "belonging to whom
(clan etc)") is spelled as an y(silon), because he and
his paternal family (as well as various other bearers
of the same name, which initially is an nickname) are
acknowledged noble people (aristocrats), of lower ranks
(gentry). The onomastic ypsilonization of Hungarian surnames
has been an aristocratic privilege. ("Hoi-polloi" cannot
ypsilonize names without official acknowledgement. :-))

In contrast with this: the rest of the Sárközis, with the
normal -i suffix (meaning the same). BTW: At the same
time many Hungarian Roma also bear the name Sárközi
(only -i, no -y). When Nicolas was pres. of France, there
was in Vienna, Austria, a Rudolf Sárközy, the president
of the organization of Austria's Roma.

Tim

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Sep 21, 2019, 9:45:58 AM9/21/19
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On 2019-09-21 13:34:31 +0000, Tim Lang said:

> On 21.09.2019 14:28, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2019-09-21 10:31:20 +0000, António Marques said:
> >
>>> The French pronounce foreign words as if they were written in French? Cf
>>> Sarkozy.
>>
>> Nicolas Sarkozy made a visit to Hungary during his presidency. The TV
>> journalists seemed quite amused at the way the Hungarians pronounced
>> his name -- [ʃ] at the beginning; initial stress, etc.
>
> According to Hungarian spelling, <s> is always pronounced [ʃ].
> (For the pronunciation [s], they use the spelling <sz>.)
>
> Sárközy ['ʃa:r-kø-zɪ]

For the first two points, ([ʃ] and initial stess), yes. In addition,
French TV journalists also ignore the á, which makes it much longer
than plain a would be, and the two dots over the o. (They also ignore
these in writing, as António and I did above).
>
> (sár "mud; clod"; perhaps also ref. to marshlands. Köz "between;
> among(st)". In German, some of such concoctions might be pretty good
> equivalents for this surname: "Mooser, Moosacher, Moospointner,
> Moosinninger, Marschner" etc, at least in southern German dialects;
> along with other ones, popular in Low German speaking areas.)
>
> A "French" spelling would be "Charquezy/Charkeuzy/Charrekeuzi".

Maybe the last is best, to lengthen the a, perhaps. But you can't do
much about the stress pattern, a concept foreign to French speech.
>
> The -i suffix (meaning: "where from"; "belonging to whom
> (clan etc)") is spelled as an y(silon), because he and
> his paternal family (as well as various other bearers
> of the same name, which initially is an nickname) are
> acknowledged noble people (aristocrats), of lower ranks
> (gentry). The onomastic ypsilonization of Hungarian surnames
> has been an aristocratic privilege. ("Hoi-polloi" cannot
> ypsilonize names without official acknowledgement. :-))
>
> In contrast with this: the rest of the Sárközis, with the
> normal -i suffix (meaning the same). BTW: At the same
> time many Hungarian Roma also bear the name Sárközi
> (only -i, no -y). When Nicolas was pres. of France, there
> was in Vienna, Austria, a Rudolf Sárközy, the president
> of the organization of Austria's Roma.

Nicolas might prefer not to be reminded of that connection. (I don't
remember him expressing an opinion about Roma, but I'd be surprised if
he's keen on them.)


--
athel

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Sep 21, 2019, 9:48:35 AM9/21/19
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Maybe it derives from Magdalenian PRE LOK CAY. On the other hand maybe
it doesn't.


--
athel

wugi

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Sep 21, 2019, 9:52:30 AM9/21/19
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Op 21/09/2019 om 15:34 schreef Tim Lang:

> According to Hungarian spelling, <s> is always pronounced [ʃ].
> (For the pronunciation [s], they use the spelling <sz>.)
>
> Sárközy ['ʃa:r-kø-zɪ]

The ending would normally sound "-zh". But if, as you say, the -y is a
spelling whim for -ɪ to distinguish the idle sods from the plebs, maybe
pronunciation is not regular either, in this case?

--
guido wugi

Christian Weisgerber

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Sep 21, 2019, 10:30:07 AM9/21/19
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On 2019-09-21, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:

> The French pronounce foreign words as if they were written in French? Cf
> Sarkozy.

Pronouncing foreign names, whether people or places, is a hard
problem. Who even knows the basic letter-sound correspondences for
all national languages in Europe? People approximate the native
pronunciation for prestige languages (and will mock those who don't),
but quickly revert to a spelling pronunciation based on there own
language for everything else, sometimes with an exoticizing flourish
(cf. the observation that English speakers like to put [ʒ] in foreign
names, or the stereotype of the chavish German car enthousiast who
pronounces Lamborghini with [dʒ]).

That's why Polish names strike so much fear in people's hearts: a
naive spelling pronunciation of those z-digraphs is impossible, and
of course nobody knows the actual letter-sound correspondences of
a low prestige language like Polish.

Figuring out how to pronounce the names of people who immigrated,
or whose ancestors did, is a crapshoot. If you watch a major
international sports tournament, like this year's soccer world cup,
there are so many player whose names are not from the dominant
language of the country they are representing, and it's anybody's
guess how to pronounce them.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 21, 2019, 12:27:01 PM9/21/19
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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 15:53:03 +0200: wugi <br...@brol.be> scribeva:

>Op 21/09/2019 om 15:34 schreef Tim Lang:
>
>> According to Hungarian spelling, <s> is always pronounced [?].
>> (For the pronunciation [s], they use the spelling <sz>.)
>>
>> Sárközy ['?a:r-kř-z?]
>
>The ending would normally sound "-zh".

No. y can only modify g, l, n, t in Hungarian spelling, not z.

>But if, as you say, the -y is a
>spelling whim for -? to distinguish the idle sods from the plebs, maybe
>pronunciation is not regular either, in this case?

Pronunciation is regular, older spelling often are not.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 21, 2019, 12:27:34 PM9/21/19
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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 14:16:08 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<na...@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>Pronouncing foreign names, whether people or places, is a hard
>problem. Who even knows the basic letter-sound correspondences for
>all national languages in Europe?

I do. And beyond.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Sep 21, 2019, 12:36:05 PM9/21/19
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On 2019-09-21 16:27:00 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> Sat, 21 Sep 2019 15:53:03 +0200: wugi <br...@brol.be> scribeva:
>
>> Op 21/09/2019 om 15:34 schreef Tim Lang:
>>
>>> According to Hungarian spelling, <s> is always pronounced [?].
>>> (For the pronunciation [s], they use the spelling <sz>.)
>>>
>>> Sárközy ['?a:r-kø-z?]
>>
>> The ending would normally sound "-zh".
>
> No. y can only modify g, l, n, t in Hungarian spelling, not z.
>
>> But if, as you say, the -y is a
>> spelling whim for -? to distinguish the idle sods from the plebs, maybe
>> pronunciation is not regular either, in this case?
>
> Pronunciation is regular, older spelling often are not.

Also personal names. I know someone called Eörs. When I met him I asked
whether that didn't violate the rules. He said, yes it did, but
personal sometimes do.


--
athel

Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 1:51:56 PM9/21/19
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On 21.09.2019 15:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>For the first two points, ([ʃ] and initial stess), yes. In addition,
>French TV journalists also ignore the á, which makes it much longer than
>plain a would be, and the two dots over the o. (They also ignore these
>in writing, as António and I did above).

The <á> always has to be quite long. Kind of a French <a> or <à>, but
a longer one. In Hungarian, the spelling <a> stands for the pronuncia-
tion [ɔ] or, if you prefer, [ɒ], the uttering being almost as the
BE one (@ BBC-WS or the "Queen's"). Modern Hungarian doesn't have
[a; ʌ], hence no letter/diacritic for that kind of <a>.

>>A "French" spelling would be "Charquezy/Charkeuzy/Charrekeuzi".
>
>Maybe the last is best, to lengthen the a, perhaps.

Oh; I was afraid that -arre- would shorten it because of this
r-doubling. (In German, the -rr- would play exactly this role,
for which case in Hungarian it would be almost an impossible
rendition, since there is no ... [a; ʌ].)

>But you can't do much about the stress pattern, a concept foreign
>to French speech.

In Hungarian, almost all bi- and polysyllabic words get the
stress on the first syllable.

>Nicolas might prefer not to be reminded of that connection. (I don't
>remember him expressing an opinion about Roma, but I'd be surprised if
>he's keen on them.)

I vaguely remember that during his "reign" French executive authorities
did something in order to determine at least some groups of lots of
Roma having the Romanian citizenship (among them perhaps some Hungarian
speaking ones as well) to go home, i.e. leave those "bidonvilles" that
were the promptly demolished after they moved on. But Roma from Romania,
Hungary, Slovakia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Poland, and the Czech Rep. are
EU citizens. Conclusion: "like" it, or ... "Frexit". :-)

Tim

Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 2:39:54 PM9/21/19
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On 21.09.2019 15:53, wugi wrote:

>The ending would normally sound "-zh".

But how might a <y> sound <zh> [ʒ], or in the Cyrillic alph.
<ж>. If so, then in which European language?

>But if, as you say, the -y is a spelling whim

Yes, it may be deemed as a late medieval whim. Hungarian
spelling doesn't need any <y> for Hungarian words, except for
the ... conventions <gy> and <ty> (vide infra). Instead
of these, <gj> and <tj> could have been used as well,
especially since Hungarians tend to quickly pronounce
them as though they'd read <gy> and <tj> (esp. the latter
one). Thus, e.g. the word ribizli (from German Ribis(e)l,
"Johannisbeere; Ribes"), if written <rybyzly>, it'd be read
the same, ['ri-biz-li], as it were written <ribizli>.

>for -ɪ to distinguish the idle sods from the plebs, maybe
>pronunciation is not regular either, in this case?

The pronunciation is the same for Hungarian <i> and <y>.
Esp. in the suffix -i (for the aristocrats -y).

So Sárközy = Sárközi, since for both there is only this
pronunciation: ['ʃa:r-kø-zɪ].

Exceptions: (voiceless) <ty> and (voiced) <gy>, where <y>
is ... mute! It only plays a typographical role here -
in combination with <t> and <g> respectively - so that the
Hungarian sounds [ɟ] (cf. Magyar, György "George", gyár "factory")
and [c] (cf. Mátyás "Mathias", tyúk "chicken", kutya "dog"
(cf. Bulgarian kuče)) have special renditions in written,
in contrast with, say, Russian, that usually don't use
special letters/combinations or diacriticals for these
two palatal stops (IARC, neither does Slovakian, whose
[ɟ] and [c] are identical, as if they were Hungarian, while
the Russian ones aren't exactly the same, but a bit more
"apical" and almost only semi-palatal).

NB:

The Hungarian spelling uses the "accents" (always "aigus")
to show the ... length of the vowel: á, é, í, ó, ú, ő, ű.
[This would be rendered, e.g., in German either as ah, eh,
ih/ie, oh, uh, öh, üh - or as aa (also <ae> in some Low
German areas, with the so-called "Dehnungs-E", e.g. Claes
instead of Claas for Niklas/Nikolaus/Klaus), ee, ij, oo
(or <oe> in Northrhine-Westfalia, cf. Coesfeld, Soest),
uu, öö, üü]. This "NB" is important, since most people
think these accents in Hungarian spelling would be ...
accents; their role is not the one to show a "stress", but
to show that the same vowel is lengthened.

Tim


Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 2:53:33 PM9/21/19
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On 21.09.2019 16:16, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

>or the stereotype of the chavish German car enthousiast who
>pronounces Lamborghini with [dʒ]).

Yeah: although Italians insert an <h> there especially to avoid the
[dʒ] and to "save" the <g> as in (German) "Gilde, Ginster, Gisbert".
And "Raditscho", although Italian Radicchio has a special <cc> and
an additional <h> in order to avoid [tʃ].

>That's why Polish names strike so much fear in people's hearts: a
>naive spelling pronunciation of those z-digraphs is impossible, and
>of course nobody knows the actual letter-sound correspondences of
>a low prestige language like Polish.

Hehe, there are "zillions" of Germans (esp. in the Ruhr-region as
well as in Eastern Germany) bearing such (Czech & Polish) surnames,
which they themselves cannot pronounce (e.g. Przybilski, Grzimek).
Or there are awkward adaptions, such as Miosga for Miozga and
Mross(ek) for Mroz(ek)/Mraz(ek). Or pronunciation "reductions",
e.g. Kubicki [kubiki] and Lisicki [liziki], which actually have
to be pronounced [kubitski, lizitski] (the latter one has the
correct spelling Lizicki, I suppose. Or take, the city of Łódz:
Germans say "Lotsch". But Poles pronounce it as if it had the
"English" spelling ... "Woodge".

>Figuring out how to pronounce the names of people who immigrated,
>or whose ancestors did, is a crapshoot.

It is a "major" problem almost only in Engl.-speaking countries (esp.
USA).

Tim

Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 3:20:01 PM9/21/19
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On 21.09.2019 18:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>y can only modify g, l, n, t in Hungarian spelling, not z.

Sheesh, in my previous post I omitted <ly> (virtually the same
pronunciation as with the spelling <j>) and <ny>, which is
the same palatal-n as the French, Italian <gn>, Spanish <ñ>,
Portuguese <nh>, Albanian <nj> and (I assume) the Serbian-
Croatian <њ>.

>Also personal names. I know someone called Eörs. When I met him I asked
>whether that didn't violate the rules. He said, yes it did, but personal
>sometimes do.

Older spelling for Örs or Őrs. The same in Eötvös instead of
the simple Ötvös ("goldsmith; orfèvre"). Or look at more "exotic"
ones, such as Dezsewffy: this is a mere Dezsőfi, but in a medieval
and aristocrat spelling. (A ... whim. :-)) The pronunciation
['dæ-ʒø:-fɪ] for both; meaning "the son of Desiderius/Désiré".

Tim

António Marques

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Sep 21, 2019, 3:57:31 PM9/21/19
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Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> And "Raditscho", although Italian Radicchio has a special <cc> and
> an additional <h> in order to avoid [tʃ].

The h is to avoid /tS/. The extra c is because the consonant is /k:/ rather
than /k/.

In Portugal, no one can convince the Pizza Hut personnel NOT to say
['fun(d)Zi] for funghi.

António Marques

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Sep 21, 2019, 4:11:12 PM9/21/19
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Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> On 2019-09-21, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>> The French pronounce foreign words as if they were written in French? Cf
>> Sarkozy.
>
> Pronouncing foreign names, whether people or places, is a hard
> problem. Who even knows the basic letter-sound correspondences for
> all national languages in Europe?

It's one thing not to follow the foreign conventions, another to just
pronounce the word as if it were written in your own language. In Portugal
people of course mispronounce foreign names, but they try to follow the
'average international' value of letters. Of course that would fail
spectacularly even if we don't go into Irish. [sar'kOzi], [prel'jOkaj].

Radamel Falcao is named that way after a brazilian player; the name is
obviously Portuguese, but he's Colombian and they don't know what to do
with tildes there, so the ending gets mispronounced [aw], which is
absolutely how not do it - using the spanish cognate [on] would be a much
better approximation*. What's weird is that now that he hasn't played here
for years, the Portuguese media is keen on mispronouncing the name as if it
were completely and unrecognisably foreign.

(*) -ão merges medieval -ão, -an and -on (except for monosyllables, and the
plurals are still different). In Galician you can still find all the
possibilities, depending where you go:

irmá / irman / irman (sister)
irmao / irmão / irman (brother)
falcôs / falcons / falcois / falcões (hawks)
cás / cans / cais / cães (dogs)


Christian Weisgerber

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Sep 21, 2019, 4:30:07 PM9/21/19
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On 2019-09-21, Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> So Sárközy = Sárközi, since for both there is only this
> pronunciation: ['ʃa:r-kø-zɪ].
>
> Exceptions: (voiceless) <ty> and (voiced) <gy>, where <y>
> is ... mute! It only plays a typographical role here -
> in combination with <t> and <g> respectively - so that the
> Hungarian sounds [ɟ] (cf. Magyar, György "George", gyár "factory")
> and [c] (cf. Mátyás "Mathias", tyúk "chicken", kutya "dog"
> (cf. Bulgarian kuče)) have special renditions in written,

The Hungarian orthography employs various digraphs. Three use y
to indicate palatalization: <gy>, <ty>, and <ly>. Historically,
<ly> represented /ʎ/, but nowadays it is simply /j/.

About <gy> and <ty>, or rather the phonemes they represent, there
seems to be some disagreement whether they are palatal stops or
affricates /c͡ç/ and /ɟ͡ʝ/.

> in contrast with, say, Russian, that usually don't use
> special letters/combinations or diacriticals for these
> two palatal stops (IARC, neither does Slovakian, whose
> [ɟ] and [c] are identical, as if they were Hungarian, while

Slovakian uses ď and ť, respectively. (Depending on the font the
diacritic is rendered as a caron or reduced to an apostrophe.)
However, before front vowels the palatalization is automatic, so
you simply write de, di, te, di. The same applies for ľ /ʎ/ and ň
/ɲ/.

I'll let other people fight it out what the difference between [kʲ]
and [c] is and which languages actually use which. Note that the
phonemicization /.../ may not reflect the actual phonetic realization
[...].

> The Hungarian spelling uses the "accents" (always "aigus")
> to show the ... length of the vowel: á, é, í, ó, ú, ő, ű.

Yes. Short and long vowels are mostly distinguished by quantity,
but there is a small difference in quality too: short vowels are
slightly more centered, as one might expect. And, as you noted
elsewhere, short a has become rounded. A vowel chart is worth a
thousand words:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#/media/File:Hungarian_vowel_chart_with_rounded_short_a.svg

> [This would be rendered, e.g., in German either as ah, eh,
> ih/ie, oh, uh, öh, üh - or as aa (also <ae> in some Low
> German areas, with the so-called "Dehnungs-E", e.g. Claes
> instead of Claas for Niklas/Nikolaus/Klaus), ee, ij, oo
> (or <oe> in Northrhine-Westfalia, cf. Coesfeld, Soest),
> uu, öö, üü].

Some Low German toponyms also have a lengthening i, e.g. the common
"Broich" /broːx/. Then there is "Duisburg" /dyːsbʊrk/. And
"Mecklenburg" has a lenghtening c /meːklənbʊrk/. Needless to say,
many Germans are confused by these spellings and will mispronounce
the less familiar names.

Hans Aberg

unread,
Sep 21, 2019, 4:38:59 PM9/21/19
to
On 2019-09-21 12:07, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> Angelin Preljocaj is apparently a noted choreographer. His name caught my eye
> in this morning's paper. I wondered about its origin and pronunciation.
> Wikipedia offers: "(French pronunciation: ​[pʁəʒokaʒ])". Why French? Because
> he was born and still lives in France. But "He is of Albanian origin.
> [citation needed]"
>
> So the consonants spelled <lj> <c> <j> are apparently [ʒ] [k] [ʒ] for
> the French. But if this were Albanian orthography they would be [lj] [ts] [j].
> Unfortunately I hardly know word one of Albanian, and have no idea of
> what Albanian surnames should be like. It may not even be Albanian.
>
> Any suggestions?

A translation service detects "Preljo çaj" as Albanian for "Touch the
tea". :-)

António Marques

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Sep 21, 2019, 4:54:32 PM9/21/19
to
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> Slovakian

Slovak (since you make a point of writing flawless English)

I wonder if that's the origin of the -ak word for the Polish, which I
understand to be an awful slur in German but is the regular form in
Portuguese.

Christian Weisgerber

unread,
Sep 21, 2019, 5:30:07 PM9/21/19
to
On 2019-09-21, Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>>y can only modify g, l, n, t in Hungarian spelling, not z.
>
> Sheesh, in my previous post I omitted <ly> (virtually the same
> pronunciation as with the spelling <j>)

Totally the same. Historic /ʎ/ has become /j/. Compare the same
historical change to the "l mouillé(e)" in French, and yeísmo in
Spanish.

> and <ny>

And I promptly forgot that one too in my other post!

>>Also personal names. I know someone called Eörs. When I met him I asked
>>whether that didn't violate the rules. He said, yes it did, but personal
>>sometimes do.
>
> Older spelling for Örs or Őrs. The same in Eötvös instead of
> the simple Ötvös ("goldsmith; orfèvre"). Or look at more "exotic"
> ones, such as Dezsewffy: this is a mere Dezsőfi, but in a medieval
> and aristocrat spelling.

Another "impossible" spelling that pops up in Hungarian names is
<cz>. Apparently it corresponds to modern <c>.

Christian Weisgerber

unread,
Sep 21, 2019, 5:30:07 PM9/21/19
to
On 2019-09-21, Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> Or take, the city of Łódz: Germans say "Lotsch". But Poles pronounce
> it as if it had the "English" spelling ... "Woodge".

Sorry for being a stickler, but you dropped a diacritic there. It's
Łódź. That's significant in Polish. /wutɕ/. I don't know if the
German pronunciation is influenced by the spelling or simply
historical.

The letter-sound correspondences of the Polish orthography are
reasonably straightforward, but alas few people in Western Europe
or North America know or care.

>>Figuring out how to pronounce the names of people who immigrated,
>>or whose ancestors did, is a crapshoot.
>
> It is a "major" problem almost only in Engl.-speaking countries (esp.
> USA).

It's the same problem everywhere, it is just most conspicuous in
the US because of that country's history of extensive immigration.
But, for instance, there are plenty of germanophone names in France
and I don't know how to pronounce them.

Germany's star woman soccer player is Dzsenifer Marozsán. That
causes people's eyes to bug out if they don't know Hungarian
orthography, and few do.

Tim Lang

unread,
Sep 21, 2019, 5:33:25 PM9/21/19
to
On 21.09.2019 22:21, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

>elsewhere, short a has become rounded. A vowel chart is worth a
>thousand words:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#/media/File:Hungarian_vowel_chart_with_rounded_short_a.svg

Therefore, Hungarian <o> and <ó> are really centered,
whereas Germa o-ones, by comparizon, tend to sound almost
like [ɒ; ɔ]. This is why, almost all German radio & TV
speaker pronounce the name of the Hung. politician Orbán
['ɔrba:n], whereas Hung. native-speakers utter it ['o(:)rba:n].
In a similar way Macron: in German newscasts it sounds as
if its French spelling were ... "Macran/t, Macram, Macrant,
Macrem, Macren/t".

>Some Low German toponyms also have a lengthening i, e.g. the common
>"Broich" /broːx/. Then there is "Duisburg" /dyːsbʊrk/.

Yes. Broich and Voigt. But most Germans (and Austrians and
Swiss) aren't aware of these rules. Neither of the North-Eastern
-ow, in which -w is always mute: e.g. Modrow, Güstrow have to
be pronounced as though with these spellings: Modroo, Güstroo
or Modroh, Güstroh. (And there are several other "anomalies",
which have to be ... learned. E.g. Baesweiler, a toponym in
the neighborhood of Aachen/Aix-la-Chapelle: [ba-es-], i.e.
no <a> and no "Westfalian lengthening e". By the same token,
Oer in Oer-Erkenschwick (in the Ruhr region): [o-ə(:)(r)].
But most of Germany mis-reads this as ... "Ör-Erkenschwick".

>And "Mecklenburg" has a lenghtening c /meːklənbʊrk/.

Burg: it depends on the German-speaking region. In Southern
regions, the most frequent Burg is a [burk] or rather a [bʊək],
whereas Germans living in Middle and Low German areas (esp.
in the latter ones) tend to pronounce it [bur(j)χ]: Mecklenburch,
Hamburch, Düüsburch, Homburch, Aschaffenburch. As well as Berg:
Bamberch, Lemberch etc. as well as (-)Bersch. (The same people will
read Flugzeug: Fluchzeuch and in Cologne, Hessen et al, in the
Middle German areas, even Fluchzeusch; and ich "I; me": isch.)

Germans in the Ruhr-Basin will in most cases pronounce [dyːsbʊək].
The r-pronunciation in such environments is restricted to emphatic
High German pronunciation (rather a histrionic one; it will be
avoided even by almost all German radio-TV speakers and anchor
people); and some dialectal "pockets" in several regions, where
R after vowels are always clearly uttered (e.g. in some areas
of the Suebian dialect, as well as in Alemanian dialects of
Switzerland and Eastern Austria. "Oooodrrrrr?" ;-))

>Needless to say, many Germans are confused by these spellings and will
>mispronounce the less familiar names.

Especially the lengthening-e and -i ones (Coesfeld, Soest, Claes,
Grevenbroich, Voigtländer) and the East German -ow ones. Many
will pronounce Pankow (Berlin) ['pʌnkov], instead of ['pʌnko:].
And extreme cases such as Baesweiler and Oer-Erkenschwick have
to be explained by people living there. Fortunately, such "exotic"
spellings are very few. The rest, if written in the standard
spelling, can be read acc. to the rules of standard German
("High German"). Regional pronunciations are no exceptions, but
variants in a certain regional dialect (other than High German).
For instance, Mannheim is called Monnem in the local variant of
Suebian; Aachen ['o:-χə]; Köln ("Cologne"): Kölle ['køl-lə];
München ("Munich") is called Minga ['mɪƞ(g)ʌ] in Bavarian;
Nürnberg: Nemberch in the Nuremberg variant of Franconian; Vienna
(Austria), i.e. Wien: Wean [vean] (actually so in the whole Bavarian
dialect, i.e. between Munich and Western Hungary); Weaner Walzer
['veana 'vojtsa], Österreich ("Austria"): Eeestərrräääch :-),
Salzburg [sojtsbʊək], Mühldorf [mujdʊof], Leipzig: Lääääpzsch
['læ:ptsʃ], Aschenberg: Aschebersch &c.

Tim

Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 5:51:34 PM9/21/19
to
On 21.09.2019 22:54, António Marques wrote:

>Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:

>>Slovakian
>
>Slovak (since you make a point of writing flawless English)

Slovakian (both as noun & adj.) is OK as well. At least according to
Webster: <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Slovak>

>I wonder if that's the origin of the -ak word for the Polish, which I
>understand to be an awful slur in German but is the regular form in
>Portuguese.

Polak is also a Polish word (I assume: plural Polacy).
-ak is shared by Polish, Slovak and Czech. Then by
Ukrainian and Russian (methinks, there Polyak would
be the pronunciation). Polak is also a frequent Polish
surname. (I assume that -ak is used to a lesser extent
in Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian. Because of neighboring
Slovak, -ák is popular in Hungarian too, in surnames.)

And by the "awful slur" you probably mean "Polake", which
many Germans will unwarrantedly spell "Pollacke". AFAIK,
"Polake" isn't as offensive as, say, "frog" for French
or "boche" for Germans or "dago and wop" for Spaniards
and Italians. After all, "Polake" is a mere slightly
Germanized Polak (the ethnonym, i.e. no pejorative nick).
But, indeed, those who use it in German are anti-Polish.

Tim

António Marques

unread,
Sep 21, 2019, 6:04:58 PM9/21/19
to
Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 21.09.2019 22:54, António Marques wrote:
>
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>>> Slovakian
>>
>> Slovak (since you make a point of writing flawless English)
>
> Slovakian (both as noun & adj.) is OK as well.

Not, however, without a stylistic justification.


> At least according to
> Webster: <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Slovak>
>
>> I wonder if that's the origin of the -ak word for the Polish, which I
>> understand to be an awful slur in German but is the regular form in
>> Portuguese.
>
> Polak is also a Polish word (I assume: plural Polacy).
> -ak is shared by Polish, Slovak and Czech. Then by
> Ukrainian and Russian (methinks, there Polyak would
> be the pronunciation). Polak is also a frequent Polish
> surname. (I assume that -ak is used to a lesser extent
> in Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian. Because of neighboring
> Slovak, -ák is popular in Hungarian too, in surnames.)

I had no idea.

>
> And by the "awful slur" you probably mean "Polake", which
> many Germans will unwarrantedly spell "Pollacke". AFAIK,
> "Polake" isn't as offensive as, say, "frog" for French
> or "boche" for Germans or "dago and wop" for Spaniards
> and Italians. After all, "Polake" is a mere slightly
> Germanized Polak (the ethnonym, i.e. no pejorative nick).
> But, indeed, those who use it in German are anti-Polish.

Which, from historical experience, is a more serious issue that whatever
leads people to call the French 'frogs'.


António Marques

unread,
Sep 21, 2019, 6:05:03 PM9/21/19
to
Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 21.09.2019 22:54, António Marques wrote:
>
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>>> Slovakian
>>
>> Slovak (since you make a point of writing flawless English)
>
> Slovakian (both as noun & adj.) is OK as well.

Not, however, without a stylistic justification.


> At least according to
> Webster: <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Slovak>
>
>> I wonder if that's the origin of the -ak word for the Polish, which I
>> understand to be an awful slur in German but is the regular form in
>> Portuguese.
>
> Polak is also a Polish word (I assume: plural Polacy).
> -ak is shared by Polish, Slovak and Czech. Then by
> Ukrainian and Russian (methinks, there Polyak would
> be the pronunciation). Polak is also a frequent Polish
> surname. (I assume that -ak is used to a lesser extent
> in Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian. Because of neighboring
> Slovak, -ák is popular in Hungarian too, in surnames.)

I had no idea.

>
> And by the "awful slur" you probably mean "Polake", which
> many Germans will unwarrantedly spell "Pollacke". AFAIK,
> "Polake" isn't as offensive as, say, "frog" for French
> or "boche" for Germans or "dago and wop" for Spaniards
> and Italians. After all, "Polake" is a mere slightly
> Germanized Polak (the ethnonym, i.e. no pejorative nick).
> But, indeed, those who use it in German are anti-Polish.

Tim Lang

unread,
Sep 21, 2019, 6:26:06 PM9/21/19
to
On 21.09.2019 23:00, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

>>Or take, the city of Łódz: Germans say "Lotsch". But Poles pronounce
>>it as if it had the "English" spelling ... "Woodge".
>
>Sorry for being a stickler, but you dropped a diacritic there. It's
>Łódź. That's significant in Polish. /wutɕ/.

Thank you. Upon sending the message, I almost remembered a
special <z> in there, but I was too ... lazy, so I didn't check
it up. (And wasn't sure whether it was an accented one or one
<z> with a dot on it. Polish has at least three types of [ʒ],
German: none. Not even a [dʒ]. Hence "Lotsch" and "blu-tschihns".
Being happy to be able to utter at least one kinda consonant
out of these ones. :-))

>I don't know if the German pronunciation is influenced by the
>spelling or simply historical.

Methinks, by the spelling.

>The letter-sound correspondences of the Polish orthography are
>reasonably straightforward, but alas few people in Western Europe
>or North America know or care.

That's right. Yet the manifold Polish [ʒ; ʃ; č/ć] as well as the nasal
<a> and <e> must be distinctly heard, and need grammar explanations,
then these cases must be learnd "by heart". Otherwise, they are
unknown and "unnatural" even to all other Slavic neighbors, incl.
Slovaks, Czechs, Ukrainians as well as Yugoslavs.

>Germany's star woman soccer player is Dzsenifer Marozsán. That
>causes people's eyes to bug out if they don't know Hungarian
>orthography, and few do.

Because Dzsenifer ['dʒæ-ni-fær] is an (unusual!) adaption of Engl.
Jennifer. [NB: all Hungarian <e>, i.e. without an accent, are
pronounced [æ], in some provinces even almost as an [a] quite
the similar way as English people do with [æ] in some areas of
England (I don't know exactly where: Liverpool? In ... Cockney??).

And Marozsán ['mɔ-ro-ʒa:n] is a bit strange: the normal Hungarian
spelling would be Marosán [-ʃa:n] or even Marosi (which means
"from the banks of the river of Maros or, in Romanian, Mureş,
in German Mieresch). Marosi and Marosán are the most common
and known Hungarian spellings. Marozsán is highly unusual (must
be extremely rare).

The variant with the (quite non-Hungarian, yet Slavic and
Romanian) suffix -án might be a hint that she is of Romanian ex-
traction, with "roots" in the province of Transylvania (where
the river flows, in its 3/4 of the total "length", from the
Eastern Carpathians to Hungary, till confluence with Tissa
(Tisza; German Theiss) few kms after passing the Hungarian-Romanian
frontier). Romanian ethnics in the relevant province (which once
was the Eastern part of kingdom of Hungary until 1919) often have
the surname Mureşan [mu-re-'ʃʌn]. (Or, there might be another
explanation, perhaps a ... Slovak one. Perhaps some Marošan or
Marožan.)

At least Yugoslavs know how her names are to be pronounced:
(bingo!) "Dženifer Marožan (Njemačka - Olimpik Lion)", cited from a
web publication in Montenegro.

Tim

Christian Weisgerber

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Sep 21, 2019, 6:30:07 PM9/21/19
to
On 2019-09-21, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:

>> Slovakian
>
> Slovak (since you make a point of writing flawless English)

I blame Tim! Actually, it's an acceptable variant:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slovakian
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=slovakian
Phew, saved.

> I wonder if that's the origin of the -ak word for the Polish, which I
> understand to be an awful slur in German but is the regular form in
> Portuguese.

Uhm, "Polak" is the Polish word for a Pole. It's the endonym.

"Polack" is also a slur in English. Dated by now, I guess. Back
in the 1980s, in the U.S., I picked up a book promising the most
tasteless jokes. It had a distinctly NYC flavor with scorn being
heaped on Jews, Polacks, and New Jersey.

Tim Lang

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Sep 21, 2019, 6:39:33 PM9/21/19
to
On 21.09.2019 23:17, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

>Another "impossible" spelling that pops up in Hungarian names is
><cz>. Apparently it corresponds to modern <c>.

For this one, the explanation is simple:

Until the end of the 19th c. (I don't know the exact year; but
it could be found in the web), <cz> was the general spelling
for [ts]. Then came the simplification: only <c> for the
same consonant. Since the <z> attached to <c> really was
superfluous.

But the <cz> spelling (has) persisted (virtually until our days) in
person names (e.g. in the very frequent name Rácz, which is an
ethnonym: an older one for "Serbian") and perhaps in some place
names.

Caution: never to be pronounced like the Polish <cz>. And never
"czardas", but "csárdás". <cs> [tʃ]. (This error, i.e. taking Polish
<cz> and <sz> for the same Hungarian spellings, yet having other
pronunciations, is an almost daily occurrence in the German speaking
countries, and beyond.)

After all, Hungarian spelling (along with Serbian/Croatian and Turkish)
seems to be a spelling that's almost a phonetic transcription. At
the "opposite extreme" as compared with English and even French
spellings. Sort of "wysiswyg". (x-mal mehr als auf Deutsch)

Tim

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Sep 22, 2019, 1:43:48 AM9/22/19
to
On 2019-09-21 19:19:57 +0000, Tim Lang said:

> On 21.09.2019 18:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

No,I din't. I don't remember who did.
--
athel

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:19:13 AM9/22/19
to
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 8:39:54 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
> [...] in combination with <t> and <g> respectively - so that the
> Hungarian sounds [ɟ] (cf. Magyar, György "George", gyár "factory")
> and [c] (cf. Mátyás "Mathias", tyúk "chicken", kutya "dog" (cf.
> Bulgarian kuče))

It always strikes me that <ty> is rather rare in Hungarian. Of the above examples, Mátyás is obviously a loan ultimately from Hebrew, kutya is an onomatopoeia, Wiktionary tells me, and a tyúk makes the sound "tòòòk tòk tòk" in Dutch, so it is likely to be an onomatopoeia too. It's actually a loan, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ty%C3%BAk#Etymology, where we mustn't exclude the possibility that the Turkic original is in turn an onomatopoeia.

Hence my question: are there any original Hungarian words (i.e. of Ugric livestock), non-onomatopoeia, that have <ty>?

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:21:44 AM9/22/19
to
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 8:39:54 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
> The Hungarian spelling uses the "accents" (always "aigus")
> to show the ... length of the vowel: á, é, í, ó, ú, ő, ű.
> [This would be rendered, e.g., in German either as ah, eh,
> ih/ie, oh, uh, öh, üh - or as aa (also <ae> in some Low
> German areas, with the so-called "Dehnungs-E", e.g. Claes
> instead of Claas for Niklas/Nikolaus/Klaus), ee, ij, oo
> (or <oe> in Northrhine-Westfalia, cf. Coesfeld, Soest),
> uu, öö, üü]. This "NB" is important, since most people
> think these accents in Hungarian spelling would be ...
> accents; their role is not the one to show a "stress", but
> to show that the same vowel is lengthened.

The wrong way to say Bartók is onuitroeibaar. (cannot be eradicated? GT says irreversible, but that's not what I mean).

António Marques

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:26:07 AM9/22/19
to
Ruud Harmsen <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 8:39:54 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
>> [...] in combination with <t> and <g> respectively - so that the
>> Hungarian sounds [ɟ] (cf. Magyar, György "George", gyár "factory")
>> and [c] (cf. Mátyás "Mathias", tyúk "chicken", kutya "dog" (cf.
>> Bulgarian kuče))
>
> It always strikes me that <ty> is rather rare in Hungarian. Of the above
> examples, Mátyás is obviously a loan ultimately from Hebrew, kutya is an
> onomatopoeia, Wiktionary tells me, and a tyúk makes the sound "tòòòk tòk tòk" in Dutch,

Notice that /u~j/ occurs in exactly ONE WORD in Portuguese ('muito') and we
don't even write it.


Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:29:53 AM9/22/19
to
Sat, 21 Sep 2019 18:36:01 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:

>> Pronunciation is regular, older spelling often are not.
>
>Also personal names. I know someone called Eörs. When I met him I asked
>whether that didn't violate the rules. He said, yes it did, but
>personal sometimes do.

Yes, because personal names are often still in an older spelling.
Eötvös is another example, and Gaál.
I've seen a list of them, probably in Wikipedia, but I can't find it.
Not here, anyway:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_names#Orthography

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:34:24 AM9/22/19
to
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 8:53:33 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
>[...] Or take, the city of Łódz:
> Germans say "Lotsch". But Poles pronounce it as if it had the
> "English" spelling ... "Woodge".

Actually it's Wootch, with the Auslautverhärtung that is automatic in Polish. And German, Dutch and Russian, is that a Sprachbund effect? But not in Yiddish, strangely.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:39:46 AM9/22/19
to
On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 9:20:01 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
> Older spelling for Örs or Őrs. The same in Eötvös instead of
> the simple Ötvös ("goldsmith; orfèvre"). Or look at more "exotic"
> ones, such as Dezsewffy: this is a mere Dezsőfi, but in a medieval
> and aristocrat spelling. (A ... whim. :-)) The pronunciation
> ['dæ-ʒø:-fɪ] for both; meaning "the son of Desiderius/Désiré".

Yes. Dezsewffy is from the Welsh branch of Hungarian, obviously! :)

This helps me find the list I knew exists. It's actually in the Dutch Wikipedia:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongaars_alfabet#Het_gebruik_van_oude_spelling_in_familienamen


Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:43:53 AM9/22/19
to
Sat, 21 Sep 2019 21:17:32 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<na...@mips.inka.de> scribeva:
>Another "impossible" spelling that pops up in Hungarian names is
><cz>. Apparently it corresponds to modern <c>.

Sometimes, yes. Or also cs. Older spellings were not as consistent and
systematic as the modern one.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:46:01 AM9/22/19
to
On Sunday, September 22, 2019 at 7:43:48 AM UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2019-09-21 19:19:57 +0000, Tim Lang said:
>
> > On 21.09.2019 18:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> No,I din't. I don't remember who did.

Twas me.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:48:44 AM9/22/19
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On Sunday, September 22, 2019 at 8:26:07 AM UTC+2, António Marques wrote:
> Notice that /u~j/ occurs in exactly ONE WORD in Portuguese ('muito') and we
> don't even write it.

No doubt that's due to Wu Chinese influencing in Macao, where speakers of the local Chinese dialect tend to conflate /l/ and /n/. Multo, muinto, muĩto.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 2:55:53 AM9/22/19
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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 23:51:31 +0200: Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> scribeva:
>Slovakian (both as noun & adj.) is OK as well. At least according to
>Webster: <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Slovak>
>
>>I wonder if that's the origin of the -ak word for the Polish, which I
>>understand to be an awful slur in German but is the regular form in
>>Portuguese.
>
>Polak is also a Polish word (I assume: plural Polacy).
>-ak is shared by Polish, Slovak and Czech. Then by
>Ukrainian and Russian (methinks, there Polyak would
>be the pronunciation). Polak is also a frequent Polish
>surname. (I assume that -ak is used to a lesser extent
>in Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian. Because of neighboring
>Slovak, -ák is popular in Hungarian too, in surnames.)
>
>And by the "awful slur" you probably mean "Polake", which
>many Germans will unwarrantedly spell "Pollacke". AFAIK,
>"Polake" isn't as offensive as, say, "frog" for French
>or "boche" for Germans or "dago and wop" for Spaniards
>and Italians. After all, "Polake" is a mere slightly
>Germanized Polak (the ethnonym, i.e. no pejorative nick).
>But, indeed, those who use it in German are anti-Polish.

Polak is a rather common Jewisch Dutch surname. (Pronounced with final
stress.)

Here's a list of those famous enough to make it into Wikipedia:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polak

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 3:00:44 AM9/22/19
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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 20:21:26 -0000 (UTC): Christian Weisgerber
<na...@mips.inka.de> scribeva:

>Yes. Short and long vowels are mostly distinguished by quantity,
>but there is a small difference in quality too: short vowels are
>slightly more centered, as one might expect. And, as you noted
>elsewhere, short a has become rounded.

And <e> is rather open, more like [鎉 than [E], in constrast with <e>
which is [e:].

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 3:06:40 AM9/22/19
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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 23:33:21 +0200: Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> scribeva:
>Therefore, Hungarian <o> and <ó> are really centered,

Really? I never noticed that, in hours of listening to Hungarian
radio.

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 22, 2019, 3:21:57 AM9/22/19
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Sun, 22 Sep 2019 09:06:38 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Sat, 21 Sep 2019 23:33:21 +0200: Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> scribeva:
>>Therefore, Hungarian <o> and <ó> are really centered,
>
>Really? I never noticed that, in hours of listening to Hungarian
>radio.

You probably mean half-close.

Tim Lang

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Sep 22, 2019, 4:45:14 AM9/22/19
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On 22.09.2019 08:26, António Marques wrote:

>Ruud Harmsen <goo...@rudhar.com> wrote:

[...]

>>>and [c] (cf. Mátyás "Mathias", tyúk "chicken", kutya "dog" (cf.
>>>Bulgarian kuče))
>>
>>It always strikes me that <ty> is rather rare in Hungarian. Of the
>>above examples, Mátyás is obviously a loan ultimately from Hebrew,

Of course: it is one of the popular Christian names, having
variants in all languages of the Christian world. (With the
difference that in Hungarian only Mátyás (Mathias) is popular, i.e.
widely known, whereas Mathaeus not quite. (In Hebrew, Matatiahu for
both, AFAIK.)

>>kutya is an onomatopoeia, Wiktionary tells me,

If onomatopoeia, then not in Hungarian; it must have been so in
an other idiom, that also influenced Bulgarian, kuče

<https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%BE_%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B5>

Either from Balkan lingu. substrata or even Latin or from some
idiom that influenced both old Hungarian and old Bulgarian: either
the "R"-Turkic (actually: Turkish) in the North (e.g. Hunnic,
Proto-Bulgarian, Avar, Khazar; from among all these, extinct,
idioms, only Tchuvash survived as well as some Hungarian Turkic
lexical items that have R-Turkish features, and not "Z"-Turkish
(Turkey, "Ottoman", Turkish) ones.

example: ökör (with R) in Hungarian "ox"; öküz (with Z) in
Anatolia-Turkish (and I assume in Azeri-Turkish as well).

Or it might be an Iranian word, and both Hungarian & Bulgarian
are tremendously influenced in their old main vocabulary by
Persian and its "Sarmatian" dialects. From the latter ones,
Hungarians assimilated two major Ossetian "waves" (in the 9th-10th
- as part of the initial Turkic-Uralic-Slavic "confederation" of
"tribes") as well as in the 13th century (part of the Cuman &
Ossetian "tandem" that fled from today's Romania and Moldova
in 1238 becaused scared by the Mongolian advance); in Hungarian,
the Ossetian Scythians are called Jász and these Jászok were colonized
chiefly in the plains between the rivers of Tisza and the Danube,
where even today some counties and toponyms contain the word part
Jász; e.g. the city of Jászberény.). Important vocabulary
parts in Hungarian are of Iranian extraction (among them
the words for "God, devil, some spirits; gold, silver; lady;
bridge, arch, arrow, sword; customs fee; comb; smoke &c&c) And
it is to be doubted that Hungarian and Bulgarian only by
coincidence have for "dog & hound" quite the same word, which is
otherwise not in use in the neighboring languages.

So, it's a pity that the Wiktionary simply states "onomatopoeia"
without giving any other hint - whereas the possible origin might be
found in a complex, manifold, environment of old Persian, old
Turkic, perhaps also in Thracian dialects as well as popular
Latin (vulgata) in the latest century of the existence of the
Roman empire in the Balkans (and the Romanized idioms up to
the "frontier" lines proposed by the researchers Jirecek and
Skok for the limitation of the Greek-speaking areas there.

>>and a tyúk makes the sound "tòòòk tòk tòk" in Dutch,

Might be. But a connection would be strange since the
mighty presence of the representative of the German(ic)
family (in the beginnings of Hungary in the Carpathian
basin; then in medieval times; and esp. in the aftermath
of the 1683 victory of the then "European Union", that
managed to push back the Ottoman Empire that had besieged
Vienna, an enormous German-speaking population settled
down throughout the Hungarian kingdom, chiefly coming
from Southern Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Alsacia,
Lorena. Those who colonized certain areas of Hungary
in the 12th-13th c. went there chiefly from Luxembourg
and the Ripuarian Franconian area, as well as Wallonia
(who were quickly assimilated by the German-speaking
people).

And these rather have said: "putt, putt, putt". Besides,
I assume there's no interjection "tyúk-tyúk" in Hungarian
or at least in some regiolects of it, e.g. in Transylvania,
South Hungary, in North Hungary which is now Slovakia,
as well as in Western Pannonia - where German places
were highly numerous esp. in the epoch 18th century and
1940. Even the Buda hillocks of Budapest were thoroughly
German until the end of the 19th c., in German Ofen.
(Besides: whole lotta Hungarian chunks of vocabulary, esp.
of idiomatic phrases, are modern German translation
borrowings, so much so, that one might be tempted to
deem Hungarian as a further German dialect using words
from another language. :-) In modern Hungarian, even the
significant words for "mother and father", in Hungarian
"anya & anyú" and "apja & apu(ka)" are extremely frequently
replaced in colloquial normal Hungarian by "muter & fater"
(muterom & faterom "my mother & my father"), although the
Austrian "overlordship" ceased throughout the greater Hungary
in the fall of 1918. Go, figure. :-)

>Notice that /u~j/ occurs in exactly ONE WORD in Portuguese ('muito')
>and we don't even write it.

In Hungarian tyúk you have [ju:], not [u:j]. (Sort of "tyook" in a
possible Engl. spelling.)

OTOH, <ty> is rare as compared with the frequency of its voiced
variant, <gy>, and esp. as an initial <ty>, as in this <tyúk>. But
its usage is occasionally there (instead of simple /t/; the
script option <ty> and <gy> really shows the relation of these
pronunciation to their assuming "origin": /t/ and /g/ respectively,
which have been altered - I don't know but perhaps under Slavic,
esp. Slovak, influence (since Croatian and Slovenian AFAIK don't
have these palal sounds; whereas the Slovak ones are even stronger
than the Polish and Russian ones, let alone the Ukrainian ones. I
don't know whether Hung., in this respect, might have been influ-
enced by Old Russian of the 1st millennium CE, but the "Urheimat"
of Hungarians (as well as of the then non-Slavic Bulgarians or
"Bulghars") was in central Russia, roughly betw. the rivers of
Moskva and Kama, along the river of Volga; and according to the
oldest Hung. and foreign chronicles the proto-Hungarian "federation",
when emigrating from Ukraine, also contained a East-Slavic population,
i.e. prior to the Slavic influences exerted by Slovaks and Croats
after settling down in Pannonia, Pannonian fields & al. surrounding
areas within the so-called "Carpathian basin"),

e.g. ponty "carp"; pontyféle "minnow" (verbatim: "kind of carp");
konty "hair knot"; kontyvirág (a plant); gyertya "candle(stick) &
spark plug" (both equivalents of the German Kerze); atya "father"
(Atya Úr Isten "Lord God Father"); teremtő atyám! (as in "for
Chrissake/God's sake!, or in German "Allmächt(iger)!"; verbatim:
"my Creator Father!"); atyai "paternal"; atyafiság "nepotism";
atyáskodó "paternalistic"; [my assumption: Hung. atya's kinship
is represented by pan-Turkic ata "father"]; füty "pipe", fütyül
(all kindof pipe etc. sounds, starting with "to whistle"; fütyülök
rá "I give a darn", transl. of the German "ich pfeife drauf");
yet the word for "whistle" (noun) has a longer <ty>, so that it
is spelled with a double-T: fütty, whereas the figurative one,
fütyi, only with one; inconsequences in applying long and short
consonants, even long vowels (were it should be; and, alas, when
the "vowel harmony" is to be observed :)), do occur now and then
(the latter word is a milder colloquial/slangy one for "cock=penis",
if the more pejorative synonym fasz is to be avoided); kotyvalék
"glop, hogwash", kotyog (the hen: "to cackle") &c

Tim


António Marques

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Sep 22, 2019, 6:56:28 AM9/22/19
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Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 22.09.2019 08:26, António Marques wrote:
>> Notice that /u~j/ occurs in exactly ONE WORD in Portuguese ('muito')
>> and we don't even write it.
>
> In Hungarian tyúk you have [ju:], not [u:j].

What I'm pointing out is that there is at least one language in which a
certain sound (it doesn't really matter whether it's a phoneme or a
sequence of phonemes) appears in one place only, in this case resulting in
it even having its own spelling (múinto or mũito would be the perfectly
regular options).

I'm sure we all appreciate the specifics of spelling, but the point of a
newsgroup discussion is to share those bits that may be more interesting
for whatever reason, and preferably not readily known to the general
public. Please try to be more discriminating.

António Marques

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Sep 22, 2019, 6:57:48 AM9/22/19
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António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 22.09.2019 08:26, António Marques wrote:
>>> Notice that /u~j/ occurs in exactly ONE WORD in Portuguese ('muito')
>>> and we don't even write it.
>>
>> In Hungarian tyúk you have [ju:], not [u:j].
>
> What I'm pointing out is that there is at least one language in which a
> certain sound (it doesn't really matter whether it's a phoneme or a
> sequence of phonemes) appears in one place only, in this case resulting in
> it even having its own spelling

...in it NOT having...

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 22, 2019, 8:57:25 AM9/22/19
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On Saturday, September 21, 2019 at 6:04:58 PM UTC-4, António Marques wrote:
> Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> > And by the "awful slur" you probably mean "Polake", which
> > many Germans will unwarrantedly spell "Pollacke". AFAIK,
> > "Polake" isn't as offensive as, say, "frog" for French
> > or "boche" for Germans or "dago and wop" for Spaniards
> > and Italians. After all, "Polake" is a mere slightly
> > Germanized Polak (the ethnonym, i.e. no pejorative nick).
> > But, indeed, those who use it in German are anti-Polish.
>
> Which, from historical experience, is a more serious issue that whatever
> leads people to call the French 'frogs'.

From stereotypically eating frogs' legs.

Over Here (USA), "Polack" is offensive, like "Bohunk," "Chink," "Guinny,"
"Mick," etc. (an insult for every immigrant group), going along with
"Polish jokes," which assume that Polacks are stupid.

Tim Lang

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Sep 22, 2019, 9:48:08 AM9/22/19
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On 22.09.2019 12:56, António Marques wrote:

>I'm sure we all appreciate the specifics of spelling, but the point of a
>newsgroup discussion is to share those bits that may be more interesting
>for whatever reason, and preferably not readily known to the general
>public. Please try to be more discriminating.

Agreed. But I think that the "~" transformation of Portuguese
intervocalic /n/ can be seen as a "general knowledge", as compared
with the behaviour of <ty> and <gy> in Hungarian - a language which
is by and large an "exotic" one to most Europeans.

Let alone the fact that even these <ty>, <gy> aspects have
different renderings in some regions of the Hungarian language:

as if written <č> and <dž> - or, in the Hungarian spelling,
<cs> and <dzs>:

kucsa (kutya) "dog; hound"
csúk (tyúk) "csicken"
dzsercsa (gyertya) "candle; spark-plug"
dzser(m)ek (gyer(m)ek) "child; kid"
dzsár (gyár) "factory"
Dzsördzs (György)

(or at least some of such <ty>, <gy> words).

These aspects aren't common knowledge even to a native-speaker.
Or the parallel usage: Hung. kutya and Bulg. kuče; probably
sharing one and the same etymology. (The same is valid for
many aspects of onomastics as well as for the Old and Middle
Iranian and the old Turkic impact.)

Tim

Helmut Richter

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Sep 22, 2019, 11:15:08 AM9/22/19
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On Sun, 22 Sep 2019, Tim Lang wrote:

> as if written <č> and <dž> - or, in the Hungarian spelling,
> <cs> and <dzs>:
>
> kucsa (kutya) "dog; hound"
> csúk (tyúk) "csicken"
> dzsercsa (gyertya) "candle; spark-plug"
> dzser(m)ek (gyer(m)ek) "child; kid"
> dzsár (gyár) "factory"
> Dzsördzs (György)

I do not speak Hungarian but the way I learnt the spelling is that -zs- is
[ʒ], hence -dzs- is [dʒ] (like English "George") whereas -gy- is [ɟ] with
the tongue nearer to the upper teeth. Were there no difference, the
Hungarians would probably have written "*Gyenifer" and "*menegyer"
instead of the actual spelling "Dzsenifer" and "menedzser".

Are there non-loanwords containing -dzs-?

--
Helmut Richter

António Marques

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Sep 22, 2019, 11:42:08 AM9/22/19
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Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 22.09.2019 12:56, António Marques wrote:
>
>> I'm sure we all appreciate the specifics of spelling, but the point of a
>> newsgroup discussion is to share those bits that may be more interesting
>> for whatever reason, and preferably not readily known to the general
>> public. Please try to be more discriminating.
>
> Agreed. But I think that the "~" transformation of Portuguese
> intervocalic /n/ can be seen as a "general knowledge",

And no one has presented it as such. _Once more_, the interesting thing
here is that there is a phoneme / sequence of phonemes that has nothing
special about it and yet only occurs in a single word (a frequent and
normal word) in the entire language. Do you have examples from other
languages? I assume they must exist.

> as compared
> with the behaviour of <ty> and <gy> in Hungarian - a language which
> is by and large an "exotic" one to most Europeans.
>
> Let alone the fact that even these <ty>, <gy> aspects have
> different renderings in some regions of the Hungarian language:
>
> as if written <č> and <dž> - or, in the Hungarian spelling,
> <cs> and <dzs>:
>
> kucsa (kutya) "dog; hound"
> csúk (tyúk) "csicken"
> dzsercsa (gyertya) "candle; spark-plug"
> dzser(m)ek (gyer(m)ek) "child; kid"
> dzsár (gyár) "factory"
> Dzsördzs (György)
>
> (or at least some of such <ty>, <gy> words).
>
> These aspects aren't common knowledge even to a native-speaker.

They look like ordinary dialectal variation from here, which of course is
interesting within the context of Hungarian dialectology.

Christian Weisgerber

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Sep 22, 2019, 4:30:07 PM9/22/19
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On 2019-09-21, Tim Lang <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> And by the "awful slur" you probably mean "Polake", which
> many Germans will unwarrantedly spell "Pollacke". AFAIK,
> "Polake" isn't as offensive as, say, "frog" for French
> or "boche" for Germans or "dago and wop" for Spaniards
> and Italians.

I'm not sure I have ever heard "frog" as a serious slur. It is
sometimes used in jest. However, by far most uses are by French
people themselves who use it self-deprecatingly.

I think a lot of these slurs have become dated and the underlying
hatred has been directed at new targets.

António Marques

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Sep 22, 2019, 4:44:06 PM9/22/19
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Have you heard of a thing called 'Brexit'?

wugi

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Sep 22, 2019, 4:57:20 PM9/22/19