Europe's caste system - RISE IN ATTACKS ON THE ROMA (Gypsies)
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
[Caption] Robert Csorba, 27, and his 4-year-old son,
Robert, were killed as they tried to escape from their
burning home in Tatarszentgyorgy.
By Nicholas Kulish
The New York Times
Sunday, April 26, 2009
Tiszalok, Hungary - Jeno Koka was a doting grandfather and
dedicated worker on his way to his night-shift job at a
chemical plant last week when he was shot dead at his
doorstep. To his killer, he was just a Gypsy, and that
seems to have been reason enough.
Prejudice against Roma --
http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/attachments/EU-MIDIS_ROMA_EN.pdf
widely known as Gypsies and long among Europe's most
oppressed minority groups -- has swelled into a wave of
violence. Over the past year, at least seven Roma have been
killed in Hungary, and Roma leaders have counted some 30
Molotov cocktail attacks against Roma homes, often
accompanied by sprays of gunfire.
But the police have focused their attention on three fatal
attacks since November that they say are linked. The
authorities say the attacks may have been carried out by
police officers or military personnel, based on the stealth
and accuracy with which the victims were killed.
In addition to Mr. Koka's death, there were the slayings of
a Roma man and woman, who were shot after their house was
set ablaze last November in Nagycsecs, a town about an
hour's drive from Tiszalok in northeastern Hungary. And in
February, a Roma man and his 4-year-old son were gunned
down as they tried to escape from their home, which was set
on fire in Tatarszentgyorgy, a small town south of
Budapest.
Jozsef Bencze, Hungary's national police chief, said in an
interview on Friday with the daily newspaper Nepszabadsag
http://nol.hu/index.html
that the perpetrators, believed to be a group of four or
more men in their 40s, were killing "with hands that are
too confident." Military counterintelligence is taking part
in the investigation, Hungarian radio reported, and Mr.
Bencze said the pool of suspects included veterans of the
Balkan wars and Hungarian members of the French Foreign
Legion.
Experts on Roma issues describe an ever more aggressive
atmosphere toward Roma in Hungary and elsewhere in Central
and Eastern Europe, led by extreme right-wing parties,
whose leaders are playing on old stereotypes of Roma as
petty criminals and drains on social welfare systems at a
time of rising economic and political turmoil. As
unemployment rises, officials and Roma experts fear the
attacks will only intensify.
"One thing to remember, the Holocaust did not start at the
gas chambers," said Lajos Korozs, senior state secretary in
the Ministry of Social Affairs and Labor, who works on Roma
issues for the government.
In the Czech Republic, where radical right-wing
demonstrators have clashed with the police
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LH454047.htm
as they tried to march through Roma neighborhoods, a small
child and her parents were severely burned
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8015336.stm
after assailants firebombed their home in the town of
Vitkov this month. The police in Slovakia were caught on
video recently tormenting six Roma boys they had arrested,
forcing them to undress, hit and kiss one another.
But nowhere has the violence reached the level it has in
Hungary, spreading fear and intimidation through a Roma
population of roughly 600,000. (Estimates vary widely in
part because Roma say they are afraid to identify
themselves in surveys.)
Last Wednesday, Mr. Koka, 54, had just finished a cup of
coffee and brought his wife supper in their bedroom when he
went outside to start his orange Opel Astra for his nightly
drive to work. His wife, Eva, said she heard his body hit
the ground, but did not realize it until she went outside
and found him lying in a pool of blood a few paces from the
doorframe.
"I tried to lift his hand and his head, but he didn't say a
word," said Ms. Koka, whose brother rushed over from his
home across the street and tried to perform CPR on Mr.
Koka, who had been shot in the chest. "If he had not been
dead he would have said goodbye to me," Ms. Koka said in an
interview at their home.
Viktoria Mohacsi, a Roma member of the European Parliament,
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/e/european_parliament/index.html?inline=nyt-org
said the police -- who still decline to explicitly name
ethnicity as a motive in the cases -- were slow to
recognize the blossoming violence against the community.
"At the beginning, they said it was illegal money lenders
or that it was Roma killing each other," Ms. Mohacsi said,
as she visited the Koka family here in Tiszalok on Friday.
"In the past five years, attitudes toward Roma in many
parts of Eastern Europe have hardened, and new extremists
have started to use the Roma issue in a way that either
they didn't dare to or didn't get an airing before," said
Michael Stewart, coordinator of the Europe-wide Roma
Research Network.
http://web2.ceu.hu/rrn
The extreme-right party Jobbik has used the issue of what
its leaders call "Gypsy crime" to rise in the polls to near
the 5 percent threshold for seats in Hungary's Parliament
in next year's election, which would be a first for the
party. Opponents accuse the Hungarian Guard,
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/24/world/europe/24hungary.html
the paramilitary group associated with the party, of
staging marches and public meetings to stir up anti-Roma
sentiment and to intimidate the local Roma population.
The group held a rally last year in Tiszalok and in 2007 in
Tatarszentgyorgy, the town where the father and son were
killed in February, an act that some residents deplored
while in the same breath complaining about a spate of
break-ins in town that they blamed on Roma.
"The situation is bad because of the many Roma," said Eva,
45, a non-Roma Hungarian in Tatarszentgyorgy who declined
to give her last name, out of what she said was fear of
reprisals. "When the guard was here, for a while they
weren't so loud. It helped."
Since the attacks in Tatarszentgyorgy, some local residents
have joined their terrified Roma neighbors in nighttime
patrols, looking for strange cars armed with nothing but
searchlights.
"We are living in fear, all the Roma people are," said
Csaba Csorba, 48, whose son Robert, 27, and grandson, also
named Robert, were killed by a blast from a shotgun shortly
after midnight in the February attack. They were buried
together in one coffin, the little boy laid to rest on his
father's chest.
The child's death in particular shook Roma here. "It proved
to us it doesn't matter whether we are good people or bad
people," said Agnes Koka, 32, the niece and goddaughter of
Mr. Koka, who relatives said loved to bring candy and fruit
to his grandchildren. "It only matters that we are Gypsy,"
Ms. Koka said.
More at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/world/europe/27hungary.html?ref=world
Jai Maharaj
http://tinyurl.com/24fq83
http://www.mantra.com/jai
http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
Om Shanti
Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org
The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
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Dušan Vukotić
hari....@indero.com
strange because he is 100 percent american in all regards, but we leave
that fraud aside for now.
He tries to miminize indian social flaws by equating others. While
gypsy oppression is real and evil it in no way rises to the level of
caste. There is no moral equality here.
The below reminds me of 2002 and 2008 in india:
Stray Dog
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, hari....@indero.com wrote:
> Date: 28 Apr 2009 19:26:08 GMT
> From: hari....@indero.com
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian, alt.fan.jai-maharaj, sci.lang,
> soc.culture.europe, alt.computer.consultants
> Subject: Re: Europe's caste system - RISE IN ATTACKS ON THE ROMA (Gypsies)
>
> Jay stevens,aka dr. jai etc. is embarrassed by indian culture. This is
> strange because he is 100 percent american in all regards, but we leave
> that fraud aside for now.
>
> He tries to miminize indian social flaws by equating others.
Has he ever discussed _any_ Indian social flaws or shortcomings? Or any
bad things Indians ever did to other Indians?
I am not affraid to talk about either bad things or good things done in US
history. Just lets not just talk about only one kind of thing done by any
people.
While
> gypsy oppression is real and evil it in no way rises to the level of
> caste. There is no moral equality here.
>
> The below reminds me of 2002 and 2008 in india:
>
> "As Economic Turmoil Mounts, So Do Attacks on Hungary's Gypsies
>
> [Caption] Robert Csorba, 27, and his 4-year-old son,
> Robert, were killed as they tried to escape from their
> burning home in Tatarszentgyorgy."
>
Terrible.
harmony
with irrelevant yet solemn pronouncement: they originally came from india.
in other words, it is ok for the kirastani whites to hate roma because the
romas originated in the pagan country of india.
and now the brown kirastanistas ape the white ones.
why do the mad monothiests feel so threatened by india as we know it? as
the people in the west increasingly, and inevitably, walk away from
kirastanism, the missionaires have turned more hostile to hindusim and
anything and everything they can pin it on hindus, such as these romas.
the hindus mind thier own business, leave them alone.
<use...@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)> wrote in
message news:20090427FdrSVg8i3k45Tc6vFkgCx9R@NYECV...
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
feel so threatened by india as we know it?" is that they
must feel inferior to Hindus.
TRIBUTES TO HINDUISM
1. Mahatma Gandhi:
"Hinduism has made marvelous discoveries in things of
religion, of the spirit, of the soul. We have no eye for
these great and fine discoveries. We are dazzled by the
material progress that western science has made. Ancient
India has survived because Hinduism was not developed
along material but spiritual lines.
"India is to me the dearest country in the world, because
I have discovered goodness in it. It has been subject to
foreign rule, it is true. But the status of a slave is
preferable to that of a slave holder."
2. Henry David Thoreau:
"In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous
and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita in
comparison with which our modern world and its literature
seems puny.
"What extracts from the Vedas I have read fall on me like
the light of a higher and purer luminary, which describes
a loftier course through purer stratum. It rises on me
like the full moon after the stars have come out, wading
through some far stratum in the sky."
3. Arthur Schopenhauer:
"In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and
so elevating as that of the Upanishads. It has been the
solace of my life -- it will be the solace of my death."
4. Ralph Waldo Emerson said this about the Gita:
"I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad Gita. It was as
if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but
large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old
intelligence which in another age and climate had
pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which
exercise us."
The famous poem "Brahm" is an example of his Vedanta
ecstasy.
5. Wilhelm von Humboldt pronounced the Gita as:
"The most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical
song existing in any known tongue ... perhaps the deepest
and loftiest thing the world has to show."
6. Lord Warren Hastings, the Governor General, was very
much impressed with Hindu philosophy:
"The writers of the Indian philosophies will survive,
when the British dominion in India shall long have ceased
to exist, and when the sources which it yielded of wealth
and power are lost to remembrances."
7. Mark Twain:
"So far as I am able to judge, nothing has been left
undone, either by man or nature, to make India the most
extraordinary country that the sun visits on his rounds.
Nothing seems to have been forgotten, nothing overlooked.
"Land of religions, cradle of human race, birthplace of
human speech, grandmother of legend, great grandmother of
tradition. The land that all men desire to see and having
seen once even by a glimpse, would not give that glimpse
for the shows of the rest of the globe combined."
8. Rudyard Kipling to Fundamental Christian Missionaries:
"Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle
the Hindu brown for the Christian riles and the Hindu
smiles and weareth the Christian down; and the end of the
fight is a tombstone while with the name of the late
deceased and the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here who
tried to hustle the east".
9. Jules Michelet, a French historian, said:
"At its starting point in India, the birthplace of races
and religions, the womb of the world." This is what he
said of the Raamyana in 1864: "Whoever has done or willed
too much let him drink from this deep cup a long draught
of life and youth .. . Everything is narrow in the West -
- Greece is small and I stifle; Judea is dry and I pant.
Let me look toward lofty Asia, and the profound East for
a little while. There lies my great poem, as vast as the
Indian ocean, blessed, gilded with the sun, the book of
divine harmony wherein is no dissonance. A serene peace
reigns there, and in the midst of conflict an infinite
sweetness, a boundless fraternity, which spreads over all
living things, an ocean (without bottom or bound) of
love, of pity, of clemency."
10. Shri Aurobindo:
"Hinduism.....gave itself no name, because it set itself
no sectarian limits; it claimed no universal adhesion,
asserted no sole infallible dogma, set up no single
narrow path or gate of salvation; it was less a creed or
cult than a continuously enlarging tradition of the
Godward endeavor of the human spirit. An immense many-
sided and many staged provision for a spiritual self-
building and self-finding, it had some right to speak of
itself by the only name it knew, the eternal religion,
sanaatan dharm...."
11. Will Durant would like the West to learn from India,
tolerance and gentleness and love for all living things:
"Perhaps in return for conquest, arrogance and
spoliation, India will teach us the tolerance and
gentleness of the mature mind, the quiet content of the
unacquisitive soul, the calm of the understanding spirit,
and a unifying, a pacifying love for all living things."
12. Joseph Campbell:
"It is ironic that our great western civilization, which
has opened to the minds of all mankind the infinite
wonders of a universe of untold billions of galaxies
should be saddled with the tightest little cosmological
image known to mankind? The Hindus with their grandiose
Kalpas and their ideas of the divine power which is
beyond all human category (male or female). Not so alien
to the imagery of modern science that it could not have
been put to acceptable use.
"There is an important difference between the Hindu and
the Western ideas. In the Biblical tradition, God creates
man, but man cannot say that he is divine in the same
sense that the Creator is, where as in Hinduism, all
things are incarnations of that power. We are the sparks
from a single fire. And we are all fire. Hinduism
believes in the omnipresence of the Supreme God in every
individual. There is no 'fall'. Man is not cut off from
the divine. He requires only to bring the spontaneous
activity of his mind stuff to a state of stillness and he
will experience that divine principle with him."
13. Sir Monier-Williams:
The Hindus, according to him, were Spinozists more than
2,000 years before the advent of Spinoza, and Darwinians
many centuries before Darwin and Evolutionists many
centuries before the doctrine of Evolution was accepted
by scientists of the present age.
14. Carl Sagan, (the late scientist), asserts that the
dance of Nataraj signifies the cycle of evolution and
destruction of the cosmic universe (Big Bang Theory). "It
is the clearest image of the activity of God which any
art or religion can boast of."
15. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, a professor of Eastern
Religions at Oxford and later President of India:
"Hinduism is not just a faith. It is the union of reason
and intuition that cannot be defined but is only to be
experienced. Evil and error are not ultimate. There is no
Hell, for that means there is a place where God is not,
and there are sins which exceed his love."
Jai Maharaj
http://tinyurl.com/24fq83
http://www.mantra.com/jai
http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
Om Shanti
In article <49f760c2$0$23782$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net>,
"harmony" <a...@hotmail.com> posted:
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
Stray Dog
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, harmony wrote:
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:02:10 -0500
> From: harmony <a...@hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian, alt.fan.jai-maharaj, sci.lang,
> soc.culture.europe, alt.computer.consultants
> Subject: Re: Europe's caste system - RISE IN ATTACKS ON THE ROMA (Gypsies)
>
> often i notice anti-roma sentiments are expressed by the kirastanistas along
> with irrelevant yet solemn pronouncement: they originally came from india.
> in other words, it is ok for the kirastani whites to hate roma because the
> romas originated in the pagan country of india.
> and now the brown kirastanistas ape the white ones.
> why do the mad monothiests feel so threatened by india as we know it? as
> the people in the west increasingly, and inevitably, walk away from
> kirastanism,
Isn't it also true that some fraction of Hindus (Dalits in particular)
walk away from Hinduism and towards some "other path"?
harmony
"Stray Dog" <sdog...@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.64.09...@sdf.lonestar.org...
>
> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, harmony wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:02:10 -0500
>> From: harmony <a...@hotmail.com>
>> Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian, alt.fan.jai-maharaj, sci.lang,
>> soc.culture.europe, alt.computer.consultants
>> Subject: Re: Europe's caste system - RISE IN ATTACKS ON THE ROMA
>> (Gypsies)
>>
>> often i notice anti-roma sentiments are expressed by the kirastanistas
>> along
>> with irrelevant yet solemn pronouncement: they originally came from
>> india.
>> in other words, it is ok for the kirastani whites to hate roma because
>> the
>> romas originated in the pagan country of india.
>> and now the brown kirastanistas ape the white ones.
>> why do the mad monothiests feel so threatened by india as we know it? as
>> the people in the west increasingly, and inevitably, walk away from
>> kirastanism,
>
> Isn't it also true that some fraction of Hindus (Dalits in particular)
> walk away from Hinduism and towards some "other path"?
>
no.
would you like to contribute to dalit welfare fund?
uNmaiviLambi
> In article <Pine.NEB.4.64.0904282254590.7...@sdf.lonestar.org>, Stray Dog
> says...
Why? Because religions which
> originated in east are all inclusive. You follow your path to god , I
> follow mine. That is why dalits were never killed (like the way
> indians were killed in US, aborigines in Australia).
> On the other hand, these septic religions only fart loudly "ONLY
> MY WAY IS THE TRUE WAY TO GOD AND ALL OTHERS WILL GO TO
> HELL". That is they are all exclusive and that's why they have
> such a bloody history.
Great point! Thanks a lot
Dušan Vukotić
> http://www.angelfire.com/oh/Monkeys2/images/NGMonkey.jpg
hari....@indero.com
along with irrelevant yet solemn pronouncement: they originally came
from india. in other words, it is ok for the kirastani whites to hate
roma because the romas originated in the pagan country of india. and now
the brown kirastanistas ape the white ones.
why do the mad monothiests feel so threatened by india as we know it? "
What a silly idea. Gypsy hatred has nothing to do with religion or
ancient history. Gypsies are christians of various kinds.
I knew a jewish woman whose mother on hearing that hitler had killed
hundreds of thousands of gypsies along with jews said, thank god"
Few people in europe would know the historical origin. The name says
the old popular theory was theycame from egypt.
Most people in europe could care less about india amy more then any
other country.
Chetan
If they are not originally from India, would that justify their
ill-treatment?
harmony
"Chetan" <chetan...@xspam.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:uws93l...@myhost.sbcglobal.net...
pay no attention to brown kirastanista harikumar hate-hindu thomas.
romas are treated very shabbily in europe, way worse than what is alleged
(mostly mischevous lies by brown kirastanistas) vis-a-vis dalits in india.
euro journalists don't say a word about romas - no surprise there - but are
always quick to raise the dalit issue in india. the romas are brown, look
like indians. i know for a fact europeans have an awareness that romas are
of indian pagan origin (now "with a local veneer"), their forebears uprooted
by mommedan invaders from their homes in northwest india.
in modern times they are so excluded, forced to the outskirts of towns where
they live in squalor and diseases. roma kids are denied admissions in
schools. romas are denied employment, and must steal to survive, and then
they are called chicken stealers. they are frequently yelled at by italians
for no reason other than being seen. shows what indians are thought of by
sonia gandhi whom the 3m media calls "magic queen".
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
"harmony" <a...@hotmail.com> posted:
> . . .
> pay no attention to brown kirastanista harikumar hate-hindu thomas.
> romas are treated very shabbily in europe, way worse than what is alleged
> (mostly mischevous lies by brown kirastanistas) vis-a-vis dalits in india.
> euro journalists don't say a word about romas - no surprise there - but are
> always quick to raise the dalit issue in india. the romas are brown, look
> like indians. i know for a fact europeans have an awareness that romas are
> of indian pagan origin (now "with a local veneer"), their forebears uprooted
> by mommedan invaders from their homes in northwest india.
> in modern times they are so excluded, forced to the outskirts of towns where
> they live in squalor and diseases. roma kids are denied admissions in
> schools. romas are denied employment, and must steal to survive, and then
> they are called chicken stealers. they are frequently yelled at by italians
> for no reason other than being seen. shows what indians are thought of by
> sonia gandhi whom the 3m media calls "magic queen".
Here's a post from 2004:
[ Subject: ROMA VICTIMS REMEMBERED
[ From: Dr. Jai Maharaj
[ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004
ROMA VICTIMS REMEMBERED
Forwarded message from "G.Subramaniam" <gsub...@comcast.net>
[ From: "G.Subramaniam" <gsub...@comcast.net>
[ Subject: Fw: ROMA VICTIMS REMEMBERED
[ Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004
> From: Roma Network
> Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 8:28 AM
> Subject: ROMA VICTIMS REMEMBERED
Original Sender - USTIBEN <ustibe...@ntlworld.com>
Ustiben report by Grattan Puxon
ROMA VICTIMS REMEMBERED
At a time of rising anti-Gypsy racism and a hardly
diminishing toll of neo-Nazi attacks on Roma communities,
it is perhaps well that we try again to learn some
lessons from the horrors of the Holocaust.
The worldwide Commemoration of Roma Victims, taking place
on 1 and 2 August, hopes to bring home the message that
far from an "asocial" problem-group, as defined by
Hitler, Roma are today a fast awakening nation demanding
recognition and rights.
With Romani organisations in some forty countries taking
part, it is expected to be the largest yet collective act
of remembrance.
Roma of all faiths will be participating in memorial
services and meetings to mark the 60th anniversary of the
destruction of the Zigeunerlager at Auschwitz on the
night of 2 and 3 August, l944.
The commemoration, promoted with the assistance of the
Trans-European Roma Federation, ERIO and others, will
pay respects to all who died in the Holocaust and to the
victims of present-day pogroms and ethnic-cleansing.
In Brussels, several thousand Roma, including many Muslim
refugees from former Yugoslavia, will hear both Christian
and Muslim leaders call for further effort in the
movement towards full emacipation and realisation of
basic human rights.
"In recalling the final desperate fight of those who died
in Auschwitz," said Imer Kajtazi, president, Romani
Union of Former Yugoslavia in the Diaspora. "I shall
speak of all those who have died since - the victims of
ethnic-cleansing in Kosovo and elsewhere. And I shall
call upon all activists to renew our struggle in their
name."
Some 300 such deaths have so far been documented by the
URYD, TERF and other groups, for the period from l989,
which effectively marked the end of communism in Eastern
Europe. But the figure for Europe as a whole, including
that for former Yugoslavia, is believed to be twice as
high.
Two commemorations are planned for Britain, the largest
taking place at the Life & Light Convention at Penrith,
Cumbria, where some 4,000 are expected to take part. An
exhibition on the Holocaust and present-day evictions in
the UK is to be mounted
The second venue is in the Glasgow area (details from
seamu...@hotmail.com)
Berlin, Vienna, Moscow, Belgrade, Amsterdam, Yerevan,
Buenos Aires, Skopje, Los Angeles, Tbilisi, Paris,
Bordeaux, Cologne, Helsinger, Valetta. Petrosani and
Kumanovo are among the many cities and towns where
candles will be lit for the commemoration.
On Monday, 2 August, a major rally, with Roma and Sinti
from many countries making the pilgrimage, will take
place on the site of the Zigeunerlager at Auschwitz.
Organized by the Association of Polish Roma, this event
will climax with a silent march to the former gas
chambers where the names of those who perished will be
read aloud by young Roma.
"For many of our old people this may the last time to
come together for such an important commemoration,"
Romani Rose, of the Central Council of Sinti and Roma in
Germany, commented.
For more information e-mail TERF at
Ustibe...@ntlworld.com
Chairman Ladislav Balaz can be contacted at the offices
of the Trans-European Roma Federation and Europe Roma,
which have been re-located to: 524 Hertford Road, London,
N98AE. UK.
End of forwarded message from "G.Subramaniam" <gsub...@comcast.net>
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
[ Subject: HINDU ORIGINS OF THE ROMANI PEOPLE
[ From: Jai Maharaj
[ Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008
Forwarded message
CHANGES IN EUROPE AGGRAVATE PROBLEMS OF THE GYPSIES
Language, Customs and Religious Practices Reveal the Hindu
Origins of Romany Nomads
By Rakesh Mathur, England Correspondent
HINDUISM TODAY
http://www.hinduismtoday.com
August 1990
PART 1
[Photograph]
Caption: The late Indira Gandhi greets Raya, famous Gypsy
singer of Moscow, during a 1976 tour sponsored by the
Punjab state government to reintroduce the Gypsies to their
Indian roots.
A visit to the new Community of Romanies (Gypsies) in
Skojpe in the southeastern part of Yugoslavia is like
entering a village in Rajasthan. At the Belgrade Railway
Station I overheard Gypsy parents talking to their children
in their native tongue, Romany. It reminded me of visiting
a Bombay Chawl. The tone, the vocabulary were very
familiar, and they used expressions like "duur jaa" ["go
away"], a common chiding in Hindi. It was, in fact,
through such language similarities that the Gypsies' Hindu
origin (which included areas of Rajasthan) were initially
discovered in 1763.
The Gypsies -- they prefer to be called "Romany" or "Roma"
from "Rom", meaning "man" -- are very much in the news
these days in Europe. The London TIMES went so far as to
proclaim "Gypsies are one of the worst skeletons in
Europe's cupboard." Recently, the East German Parliament
met in in an emergency session to discuss how to cope with
the influx of Gypsies taking advantage of the newly opened
borders. The emergence of new nationalism in eastern
Europe has unleashed many long-suppressed ethnic rivalries,
but the problem of the Gypsies are of the utmost concern.
For the last two months, HINDUISM TODAY has been monitoring
developments in the Gypsy world. I went to Yugoslavia to
interview Rajko Djuric, the newly-elected president of the
International Gypsy Community [see sidebar]. Djuric works
for a famous newspaper group in Belgrade called Politica
and is currently editor of NIN magazine. As a seasoned
poet and writer, his election as the president is seen to
make an important bridge between the United Nations and
other key organizations and otherwise illiterate Gypsies
trying to survive in a world increasingly hostile to them.
Perhaps it is time for Hindus to become more aware and
concerned about the Roma, our wandering brethren.
India's Lost Tribes
The colorful and nomadic Gypsies in their horse- or truck-
drawn caravans are an ancient but never assimilated part of
Europe's communities. Many people still expect Gypsies to
fit the stereotypical mold -- exotically dressed, racially
pure, whiling away their time step dancing and
fortunetelling. The reality is less romantic. Many have
been so severely harassed they have become desperate. They
have shed much of their folksy color, as have we all. It
is a little-known but fully-documented fact that half-a-
million Gypsies dies in Nazi death camps during World War
II. Unlike the Jews the Gypsies have never recovered from
the catastrophe.
In addition to interviewing the Gypsies themselves, I met
with Donald Kendrich, a Romany linguist who has traced the
Hindu traditions still present in the Gypsies' way of life.
He told me that the old Gypsy saying, "Our caravan is our
family, and the world is our family" is a direct adaptation
of the Sanskrit saying, "Vasudev Kutumbakam." Another
echoing of Hindu origins is, "Whether it is night or day,
the door of a Gypsy is always open." There are hundreds of
Hindi words in the Romany language, which diverged from a
common ancestor about 1,000 years ago. Some cognate words
are "sutti" (sleep), "sui" (needle), "taan" (place) and
"sacchi" (true).
[Photograph]
Caption: Though wearing Adidas sneakers and playing modern
instruments, this Gypsy troupe in Belgrade, Yugoslavia,
continue the musical tradition of their ancestors who left
India -- as long ago as 700 CE. Photo by Juliet Naylor.
Kendrich has found traces of the Hindu way deeply buried in
Gypsy customs. For example, the tradition of burning of
caravan when a Gypsy dies is an extension of the cremation
of the body. This started in the medieval times when the
Gypsies were not allowed to cremate their bodies in the
Hindu fashion.
Gypsies are divided into caste groups who mostly live in
separate areas or "mohallas." For example, there are
"mohallas" of "Loari" (blacksmiths). There are Romanian
Loaris and their counterparts in Czechoslovakia and
Bulgaria. They have their own king, too -- a post which is
not hereditary. The crown is given to the richest and
wisest man in the Loari caste. There are 149 sub-castes
among the Bulgarian Gypsies. Most of the marriages among
Gypsies are pre-arranged by their parents, many of them
before the birth of the betrothed. Sometimes matches are
found in other villages and even in other countries.
(Next issue's installment will describe more of the
Gypsies' Hindu ways, how they left India and what the
future may hold for them.)
Sidebar:
Meeting with the Gypsy President
(Interview by Rakesh mathur with Rajko Djuric, elected
President of the International Gypsy Community at their
April, 1990, conference held in Warsaw, Poland.)
[Photograph]
Caption: Rajko Djuric in his house in Belgrade,
Yugoslavia. He is a poet, writer and editor.
HINDUISM TODAY: Where did the Romanies come from?
RAJKO DJURIC: Romanies originated from India, and one
proof is the language. This is equal to Hindi. It was born
between the 9th and 11th century and Romany shows all the
signs that it is derived from Sanskrit, and Prakrit which
is similar to Gujarati and Marathi languages. Of course,
we have shifted away from these languages, but one can
still identify the origin. Holi and other Hindu festivals
are celebrated in Serbia and Spain. We have the chakra on
the flag.
HT: How is Romany philosophy similar to Hinduism?
DJURIC: The philosophy of life of the Romany people is
definitely very similar to the Indian philosophy of life.
I link the philosophy of life to God Shiva. I also have
some esoteric knowledge, for example, the way of sitting of
Shiva. Tantraism and yoga have been more of a skill for the
Gypsies. Freedom and love of the tantrics are given
priority. We take parikramas (walking around) of our
worshipful objects. "Bhakt" means happiness.
Being a Gypsy means that you don't accept any authority.
Gypsies crave for freedom. We keep to ourselves because we
would not accept any authority -- not the authority among
ourselves but government legislation, regulation and so on.
It keeps us apart, which is bad. We do not integrate into
the society. The caste system is retained among the
Romanies. People of different caste do not mix with each
other.
Originally we were vegetarians but recently changed to
carnivores when we were forced to integrate. Vegetarianism
was suitable to this traveling people when we were touring.
HT: What was the most pressing problem discussed at the
conference?
DJURIC: The status of Romany people is not recognized.
Certain rights are not recognized. If your rights are not
recognized, then you are not recognized. It is like a
slavery. It is the last minute for Europe to change this
attitude. There have been genocides, persecutions in the
past, and now there are deep-rooted prejudices against the
question of national recognition. Germans are refusing to
recognize the Romany and trying to throw them out of
Germany. There are ashes in Auschwitz of the persecuted
people. Flames are still burning in the ashes. The
demands of the Romany people for an enquiry have not been
met in every conference. In all conferences, starting from
the first one in in 1971 in London until the last one, the
German government is refusing even to talk of the
recognition of the Romany people. They have the attitude
that there is nothing to be compensated, in spite of the
fat that 500,000 people died during the German War by the
Nazis. In the concentration camps, the Romanies suffered
with the Jews and other nationalities.
There are about 700,000 Gypsies without human rights in the
world. I am appealing to journalists all over the world to
really take notice of this so that the dreadful record of
past suffering may be investigated.
PART 2
GYPSIES STRUGGLE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AND CULTURAL IDENTITY IN
EUROPE
Part Two: "Romani" Retain Hindu Beliefs and Culture a
Thousand Years After Leaving India
By Rakesh Mathur, England Correspondent
HINDUISM TODAY
http://www.hinduismtoday.com
September 1990
Contrary to the popular "gadjo" (a non-Roma) conception, a
Romani is not necessarily a nomad. Most certainly they do
not think of themselves as "wandering Gypsies," an
invention of romanticism. On the other hand, they are
historically linked with frequent migrations over great
distances. From the 10th century onwards, Roma filtered
into Persian and later Arab empires of the middle East,
early groups of them reaching Byzantium in the 11th
century. Their attachment to established religions,
whether Islam, Christianity or Judaism, has been a matter
of convenience rather than convictions. Many of their
centuries-old customs still indicate their roots in the
Hindu way of life. When the first Roma entered western
Europe in the middle ages, some claimed to be pilgrims
banished from Egypt by the Muslim Saracens -- "Gypsy" is
derived from Egypt. This story gained them short-lived
protection from the Christian Church.
For a long time, the Roma were subject to forced
conversions.
Many of them wanted to remain as they were so they were
attacked by the Christian priests. In the 12th and 13th
centuries, those in Byzantium were converted to
Christianity. STill, they maintained Shiva's "Trishul"
trident -- symbol of God's three powers of desire, action
and wisdom -- and gave it a new shape to look like a
Christian cross. The Romani word for God is "devel" from
the Sanskrit root "dev" (lit. "shining being," an angel).
This was mistakenly heard by English-speaking people as
"devil" and helped brand Gypsies as witches.
Roma are peaceful people. Violent crimes are almost
unknown among them, though there are historical instances
of their forming armies for self defense. But they are
more inclined to passive resistance (satyagrah). In 1959,
England's famous snobbish racing of the Derby barred Gypsy
horsemen from taking part. The Gypsies came and sat on the
track to protest. The alarmed British gentry were made to
look guilty in front of the world media and had to relent.
The Roma follow many of the same observances as today's
Hindus regarding personal hygiene and food preparation.
Most Gypsies won't eat in other people's homes, for the
reason of cleanliness. They will use three different
machines in the launderette, one for undergarments, one for
cleaning clothes and the other for dresses. In India, one
can find the same practice existing today among many Hindu
families.
Marriage is considered a personal affair and remains very
much an internal community matter, the joining of hands and
affirmations to each other before their parents, taking
"parikrama" (rounds) around the fire being wholly binding,
just as in India. Courtship is restrained; any physical
intimacy before the marry was, and still is, unusual and
frowned on. Concerning marital fidelity, the record is high
and though domestic rows are far from uncommon, desertion,
separation or divorce are rare.
Although enslaved against their will for over five
centuries, Roma remained outside Europe's feudal society,
then later capitalist and even socialist societies. Their
natural proclivities have been to work for themselves and
not for a boss. many became horse dealers, smiths,
musicians and more recently scrap dealers, services that
brought them an income on their own terms. Much
legislation was, and still is, designed to sweep Roma along
with the dispossessed -- whether sturdy beggars of the 16th
century England or the homeless and unemployed today --
into the exploiter's sphere.
[Photograph]
Caption: English Gypsy family in their tidy caravan motor
home. Like the Jews, Gypsies -- who are Dravidian racial
stock -- are often genetically closer to the surrounding
population than to Gypsies in other countries, as the
daughter's blond hair and blue eyes attest.
Since the war most Roma have been growing up illiterate or
semi-literate. They are hardly prepared to compete in
modern society. Now by numbers alone they are compelling
adjustment in official policy. Some states, among them
West Germany, Belgium and Netherlands, have reacted by
trying to close their frontiers to foreign Roma and
callously deporting those in their territory who lack
citizenship.
In 1978 the International Romani Union was formed linking
some 50 Romani associations around the globe, including
parts of Europe, the United States, India and Pakistan.
The Union, which has consultative status with the United
Nations, is mandated to win some measure of self-
determination for the Romani people. In particular, they
are seeking for governmental recognition and accommodation
of their traditional style of living.
(For more information, contact Ian Hancock, the
International Romani Union, Manchaca, Texas 78652, USA.)
Sidebar:
Gypsy Wisdom of Dharm, Karm and Reincarnation
The Roma generally profess religious beliefs of whatever
country they find themselves in. Those in Europe may be
Roman Catholic; those in Iran, Muslims; those in Greece,
Orthodox Christian. But these religious affiliations have
never erased their Hindu philosophy, still intact centuries
after their departure from India. HINDUISM TODAY spoke
with two of the Romani community's prominent members, Ian
hancock and William Merino, both of the International
Romani Union, about the parallels between Hindu and Gypsy
religious beliefs. Here are just a few Gypsy precepts
listed with their nearest Hindu counterparts:
Dharm: "Romaniya" means "The absolutely right way to
live."
According to Hancock, "It involves everything you could
think of, especially how clean you are. There is a state
of ritual impurity, "marima," which must be avoided. The
way to avoid it is to follow the rules of Romaniya as
closely as possible."
Karm: "Tatrimasa" means literally "go with honesty." This
is a very strong belief, according to Morino, who likened
his understanding of it to the popular phrase, "What goes
around, comes around." Hancock added that it means, "If
you hurt me, you will have to pay the price in the long run
because something bigger than me will take care of you."
Reincarnation: "Avel Pale," meaning "come back," is very
close. Hancock said the Gypsies did not believe in "living
3,000 years as a pharaoh," but accepted that a deceased
relative such as a grandfather could come back as one of
the children. Morino offered a different explanation,
saying that he was taught people came back as animals such
as the horse or cow. This is the reason, he said, "Gypsies
never mistreat any animal."
HINDUISM TODAY
http://www.hinduismtoday.com
End of forwarded message
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
[ Subject: 1,010 HINDU ROMANI SEEK REFUGE IN ITALY
[ From: Dr. Jai Maharaj
[ Date: August 1, 1999
1,010 GYPSIES SEEK REFUGE IN ITALY
The Associated Press
Saturday, July 31, 1999
BARI, Italy (AP) - More than 1,000 illegal immigrants
in an old tugboat landed in southern Italy on Saturday
under Italian military escort, the biggest single
arrival in a weeks-long influx of Gypsies from
Yugoslavia.
Authorities said 489 of the 1,010 aboard were children.
The would-be refugees burst into applause when they
docked at the southern port of Bari.
Thousands of Gypsies have landed illegally in Italy
since the war in Kosovo ended, with many saying they
were fleeing revenge attacks by ethnic Albanians in the
Serbian province.
``The Albanians are hunting us,'' one man, identified
only as Ekrep, was quoted as telling Italy's ANSA news
agency. ``We have nothing, we have no homes, we have
nothing to eat, and above all, we're afraid. Afraid of
being killed.''
Italy declared in mid-July it would treat the Gypsies
as illegal immigrants rather than refugees, and return
them immediately. But most have been taken to reception
centers, which are often just first stops en route to
points elsewhere in Europe.
The new arrivals had left Friday from the coast of
Montenegro, Serbia's smaller partner in the Yugoslav
federation.
Once docked, the passengers were taken for medical
examination and for identification and then on to
reception centers.
Authorities took into custody two men from Romania
suspected of being immigrant traffickers.
For education and discussion only. Not for commercial
use.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Posted on 07/31/1999 16:03:42 PDT by JohnHuang2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- To: JohnHuang2
Excerpt from the Hindu Timeline published by Hinduism
Today:
[...]
1000 CE: World population is 265 million. India
population is 79 million, 29.8% of world.
1000 CE: A few Hindu communities from Rajasthan, Sindh
and other areas, the ancestors of present-day Romani,
or Gypsies, gradually move to Persia and on to Europe.
1000 CE: Vikings reach North America, landing in Nova
Scotia.
1000 CE: Polynesians arrive in New Zealand, last stage
in the greatest migration and navigational feat in
history, making them the most widely-spread race on
Earth.
[...]
Source of excerpt - http://www.hinduismtoday.kauai.hi.us/Dec94.html
It is sad that the Romani are having to continue to
move after all these centuries.
Posted on 07/31/1999 16:50:30 PDT by Jai
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Source of the above and more news and discussion:
http://www.freerepublic.com/
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
[ Subject: ROMANIA'S ROMANI (GYPSY) MINORITY - Report
[ From: Dr. Jai Maharaj
[ Date: October 1, 1998
ROMANIA'S ROMANI (GYPSY) MINORITY
English Programs Feature
Written by Judith Latham
Edited by Gary Edquist
Washington
September 30, 1998
Introduction
The Roma, or "gypsies," represent Romania's second
largest minority group. However, according to
government officials and human rights activists, the
Roma are the most disadvantaged of Romania's 18 national
and ethnic minorities. VOA's Judith Latham has a report
about the situation of the Romani minority in Romania.
Here's ______.
Text Estimates of the number of Roma, or gypsies, living in
Romania differ. According to Gyorgy Tokaj [zjorzj
toh-kye], minister of the Department for the Protection
of Minorities, there are about one million Roma. And,
he adds, they have remained the most disadvantaged
minority, despite constitutional guarantees of equal
rights for all national and ethnic groups.
Tape a: cut one -- Tokaj (establish Romanian for 5 seconds and
fade)
Tape b: cut one -- English translation (0:22)
"In this competitive society, the lack of professional
education and training causes them more problems than
the majority. There are issues concerning education,
sociology, even health care, and many others, but in all
those areas this minority is deeply disadvantaged, a
situation that we cannot tolerate."
Text Dan Oprescu [oh-pres-koo], former director of the Civil
Society Program at the Soros Foundation in Bucharest,
has worked closely with Romanian Roma, particularly in
the area of education. Mr. Oprescu now heads the Roma
office in the government's department for the Protection
of National Minorities. Although the last official
census places the number of Roma at about 500 thousand,
he says, many scholars believe there are in fact between
one-and-a-half and two million Roma in Romania. If so,
adds Mr. oprescu, there are nearly as many Roma as
ethnic Hungarians, but the situation of the Roma is far
worse.
Tape b: cut two -- Oprescu (0:48)
"Because of the economic situation and because of
certain traditions, the Romani people are disadvantaged,
so we are trying to improve their situation. One of the
prejudices against Roma in Romania is that they're
guilty until proved innocent. So, first arrest [them],
first beat [them], first interrogate [them], and then
maybe they will be released. Maybe. I know that the
police keep the Romani people separately with photos and
files and so on. It is a reality. And the majority is
quite comfortable with this because the perception is
that a lot of Romani people are not working, they are
stealing. It's not about big crimes, it's about
stealing from pockets."
Text According to a report on "Violence Against Roma in
Romania" published by the European Roma Rights Center in
Budapest, Roma are "systematically subjected to police
harrassment." the report says that the pattern of
community violence against Roma in the early 1990's "has
been replaced by a new pattern of police raids conducted
in Romani communities." But, Elena Cruceru [eh-lay-nah
kroo-chair-oo] of the project on ethnic relations in
bucharest says the situation of the Roma in Romania is
beginning to improve. In fact, the Project on Ethnic
Relations -- a nongovernmental organization
headquartered in Princeton, New Jersey -- has for
several years been involved in mediatiating conflicts
between the Roma and officials in Romania and ther
east-central European countries.
Tape b: cut three -- cruceru (1:20)
"The relations between the local communities, especially
in the rural areas, and between officials like the
police department have improved. And I think this is
largely a result of our work in preventing mob violence.
The Department of National Minorities has a special
branch, a Roma Office, and they are really working with
representatives of the Roma community. But there
are things that make this activity difficult. One of
them comes from the Romani community because they don't
have a common strategy, and they have many parties, and
they're not organized yet, so the Roma office has to
deal with many organizations. The problems of
the Romani community are mostly social problems.
immediately after 1989, their problems had more of an
ethnic character. The problems of the Roma community
[today] are connected with education, jobs, social
security, health."
Text Improving the education of Roma will improve their
social and economic status; however, Ms. Cruceru says
very few Romani young people are able to finish
secondary school.
Tape b: cut four -- Cruceru (0:22)
"Unfortunately, even though last year the ministry of
education tried to have special places at the university
for Romani students, there were not enough people who
wanted to go to high school -- first of all because they
are very poor, and they prefer to work instead of going
to high school."
Text Elena Cruceru says that only one in a thousand Roma in
Romania has a university degree, and the Roma currently
have only one representative in parliament. According
to a recent report of the Project on Ethnic Relations,
or PER [purr], another major problem for Roma is their
"negative portrayal" in the mass media. Last year PER
held an international workshop in Romania on media
coverage of the Roma. According to PER, Roma are
looked upon as "foreigners" in their own country, and
they are often described as "dark-skinned" and are said
to have "inherent deviant behavioral patterns." The
project on ethnic relations says one of the major goals
of the Roma in Romania is to enhance the image of their
community from being considered as "gypsies," or
"tsigan" [see-gahn], a word originally meaning "slave,"
to Roma who have equal status as citizens in a state
governed by the rule of law.
September 30, 1998 12:47 p.m. EDT (1647 UTC) Report 7-30584
Source Voice of America
harmony
defend european atrociousness on romas?
<use...@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj)> wrote in
message news:20090429F0biRk2LvV916vGg0fxU9bk@ME783...
Dušan Vukotić
Stray Dog
On Wed, 28 Apr 2009, Mohd Kutta wrote:
> Date: 28 Apr 2009 17:09:09 -0700
> From: Mohd Kutta <mohd....@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian, alt.fan.jai-maharaj, sci.lang,
> soc.culture.europe, alt.computer.consultants
> Subject: Re: Europe's caste system - RISE IN ATTACKS ON THE ROMA (Gypsies)
>
> In article <Pine.NEB.4.64.09...@sdf.lonestar.org>, Stray Dog
> says...
>
>> Isn't it also true that some fraction of Hindus (Dalits in particular)
>> walk away from Hinduism and towards some "other path"?
>
> this is true, but with a reason. Hinduism itself is a collection
> of beliefs. There is no single book or god to guide all hindus.
> Each region prays to its own god. There is nothing in common
> between the Hinduism followed by Gorkhas and one followed
> by say tamils. That is why in Indian army, each regiment do
> their prayers their own way.
> If Gorkhas and Tamils are both classified as Hindus, it is because
> of administrative convenience of Britishers. However despite all these
> differences, all of them live in peace. Why? Because that is one
> trait common to all Indians (except followers of semitic religions)
> "TOLERANCE FOR OTHER's BELIEFS". Why? Because religions which
> originated in east are all inclusive. You follow your path to god , I
> follow mine. That is why dalits were never killed (like the way
> indians were killed in US, aborigines in Australia).
> On the other hand, these septic religions only fart loudly "ONLY
> MY WAY IS THE TRUE WAY TO GOD AND ALL OTHERS WILL GO TO
> HELL". That is they are all exclusive and that's why they have
> such a bloody history.
Here, why don't you read the following and learn what nice, peaceful,
innocent Indians in India really are.....
And, you are totally ignorant of much worse bloodshed in Asian history
than ever happened in the U.S.
********
Lets look at this question: In India's history, how many Indians (in
India) were killed (in India) by other Indians (born and living in
India)? And, what kind of morals and ethics were known to exist in India.
Here are quotes from one scholarly book on Indian history: "The Wonder
That Was India" by A.L. Basham, BA, PhD., F.R.A.S., a reader in the
history of India in the University of London (568 pp., 25 pages of index,
20 pages of references, c 1954, more than 200 half-tones, sixteenth
printing, Grove Press)
Page 115: Crime
"Some of these unfortunate and uprooted people people provided
the submerged tenth of habitual criminals which seems to ahve
existed in all ancient Indian cities. In order to suppress crime
the Arthasastra advises the imposition of a stringent curfew from
about two and a half hours after sunset to the same time before
dawn. Later sources speak of castes of professional thieves who
had developed stealing to a fine art, and who made use of written
manuals on their profession." "Crime was equally rampant in the
countryside, where the existence of large robber bands is
attested from the time of Buddha onwards. Hsuan Tsang gives the
earliest account of hereditary bandits who robbed their victims
and murdered them as a religious duty, like the later
thugs...Thus ancient India was faced with a very serious crime
problem..."
Page 116: Administration of Justice
"A Jataka story tells of a bench of five magistrates, all of
whom, incidentally, are corrupt...."
"...the evidence of low-caste people was not valid against
persons...
(p. 117)
... of higher caste." "Where the accused was open to grave
suspicion not amounting to certainty he might be tortured to
elicit confession."
"Another means of ascertaining guilt was the ordeal...and in
certain forms is still sometimes resorted to in India to settle
disputes out of court." "Several Ordeals are mentioned, however,
including ordeals by fire and immersion [in water] similar to
those known in medieval Europe...."
(p. 118)
"The early Sutras laid down fines for the punishment of murder--
1,000 cows for killing a ksatriya, 100 for a vaisya, and 10 for a
sudra or a woman of any class; the killing of a brahman could not
be expiated by a fine."
"Mutilation and torture were common penalties for many
crimes...."
Page 119 describes mutilations, capital punishments, long
imprisonments where prisoners were left to rot and thus add up to
no better than that which can be found in any other society.
Page 120 lists more fines but for slander, all related to caste
priviledge. Also, "In the later Vedic period some brahmans
claimed to be above the law altogether." "According to most
orthodox sources the brahmans were exempt from execution,
torture, and corporal punishment...."
Page 121: The Secret Service
"Perhaps the least pleasant feature of political life in ancient
India was the espionage system. The most detailed picture of the
working of this secret service is given in the Arthasastra, the
author of which devotes two chapters to its organization.... The
text visualizes a country riddled from top to bottom with secret
agents or spies."
Page 122: Hindu Militarism
"A few enlightened people recognized the evil effects of the
warfare which afflicted the Indian sub-continent during most of
its history, but...
Page 123
....their message was generally unheard. Asoka was possibly the
only ancient Indian king who finally broke with the tradition of
aggression, though his spirit can perhaps be heard in certain
passages in Buddhist texts... Nevertheless, positive
condemnations of war are rare in Indian literature."
"In any case war was generally accepted as a normal activity of
the state, even by Buddhist kings. The doctrine of non-violence,
which in medieval India had become very influential, was never at
this time taken to forbid war or capital punishment."
"The intense militarism of ancient India...."
Page 124:
"'Demoniac conquest' still took place from time to time, notably
under the Guptas, but 'righteous conquest' was the ideal which
Hindu kings were expected to follow, and it is evident that they
usually did. War became the sport of kings--a sport which was
often very profitable and always very serious..."
Page 126:
"...culminated in the jauhar, the final holocaust which was the
fate of many a medieval Rajput king, with his family and body-
guard, the women and children burning alive in the inner chambers
of the fort while the men fought to the last on the battlements."
Page 127:
"...inter-state relations were of the most macchiavellian
character." "The working of this principle can be seen throughout
the history of Hindu India in the temporary alliances of two
kingdoms to accomplish the encirclement and destruction of the
kingdoms between them."
Page 129:
"Conditions in Hindu India were not unlike those in medieval
Europe...resulting in perpetual warfare. In Europe, however, the
well-organized and centralized Roman Church often acted as a
pacifying element in the situation; in India Hinduism, which had
no all-embracing super-national organization, rather encouraged
inter-state anarchy by incorporating many martial traditions into
the Sacred Law."
The next nearly dozen pages makes reference to many details of
Indian armies in ancient times, names sources, shows photographs
of Indian plaques and reliefs thousands of years old. Indian
armies were up to 200,000 in number of soldiers, thousands of
elephants, and thousands of chariots.
If you look at the reference-sources list at the end of the book, you will
see most references are to scholarly journals from India, translations of
old and ancient writings in India, and other Indian sources, from India
itself, often authored by people with Indian names.
hari....@indero.com
It gives me great pleasure to see my remarks hit the target. Of course
nothing was said excusing the evil done to them but that is a typical
tactic of propaganda to accuse such things.
It is obvious you know little about roma, or the gypsy english term.
Islam had nothing to do with their travel from s. asia as far back as
2000 years. There are accunts of them in waht is nowiran in about 400
coming eastwardly slowly. By about 1600 they had come to east europe.
As the came they adopted the religions of the local area. The roma of
east europe are christian.
Few who treat them poorly in europe know of their history and they could
care even less that it was s. asia. There are in fact other similar
populations who are called gypsy who are not roma. This is the case in
england and ireland for example. Any traveling people are "gypsy".
It is a laugh to try to tie the treatment they recieve with the caste
system of s. asia. Jay stevens,aka dr. jai etc. wants to excuse it by
saying like a child would do to excuse some bad act, but they are doing
it too.
Dušan Vukotić
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
earn brownie points by defending Christian terrorism.
Jai Maharaj
http://tinyurl.com/24fq83
http://www.mantra.com/jai
http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
Om Shanti
In article <49f8c6a3$0$23753$bbae...@news.suddenlink.net>,
"harmony" <a...@hotmail.com> posted:
>
> do you have a theory as to why brown kirastanistas go out of their way to
> defend european atrociousness on romas?
> Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:
Jack Campin - bogus address
> They are pitiful slaves
They don't come more pitiful than you, cunt.
==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
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