Paleo-etymology & dog@English, perro@Spanish, Kuon@Greek

[Daud Deden]

The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang

I will put my own opinion here.

Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).

It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.

My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
*qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.

Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
Kuon@Greek:dog.
Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
Kelev@Hebrew:dog

Gow@Chinese:dog
Ken@Japanese:dog

Inu@Japanese:dog
Dingo@Australia:dog
Dog@Mbabaram:dog
Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka

Anjing@Malay:dog
Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
Ari@India:pariah dog
Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls

Komatim@Eskimo:dogsled

Perro@Spanish:dog ~1ka from carry/ferry?, brought by Visigoths from Morocco Atlas mountains? The Amazigt Berbers of that area use 5 dogs to hunt, 4 bite the 4 heels to stop prey, one clamps down on the throat to kill.

*qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

[Daud Deden]

-
PTD: The etymology of English "dog" is not knowable, because there are no
attested early forms and no identifiable cognates in any known language.

nor: The OED gives the following spellings of the OE ancestor of dog:
docga, dogge, doggue, doig, dogg.

Based on the close resemblance these words, and particulary docga,
bare to the OE etymons dok, docke, and dock of Eng. dock for a type of
tail and its Icelandic cognate dockr for a 'short stumpy tail', there
are, imo, reasons for believing that these OE words for a dog may have
been derived to differentiate a Northern European dog or dogs with
short tails, such as the J�mthund, from dogs with longer tails, and
the word was subsequently generalized to include all dogs.

If this is correct, the process would have been similar to the one
that caused the ON etymon hundr, deductibly for a hunting dog, to
become the English term hound that people often use for any type of
dog.

BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
gloss    Canum : docgena

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 9:48:50 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
>
> I will put my own opinion here.
>
> Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
>
> It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
>
> My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.
>
> Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> Kuon@Greek:dog.
> Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> Kelev@Hebrew:dog
>
> Gow@Chinese:dog

quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?
> Ken@Japanese:dog
from Chinese of course

> Inu@Japanese:dog
> Dingo@Australia:dog
> Dog@Mbabaram:dog
> Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka
>
> Anjing@Malay:dog
> Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
> Ari@India:pariah dog
> Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls

Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?
>
> Komatim@Eskimo:dogsled
Actually komatik, more correctly qamutik

>
> Perro@Spanish:dog ~1ka from carry/ferry?, brought by Visigoths from Morocco Atlas mountains? The Amazigt Berbers of that area use 5 dogs to hunt, 4 bite the 4 heels to stop prey, one clamps down on the throat to kill.
>
> *qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

Dog's breakfast.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

No, that's backwards. "Hound" has cognates throughout Germanic which
mean "dog in general". It's only in Middle English that it narrows
to the sense of "hunting dog".

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 6:11:50 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 9:48:50 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
> >
> > I will put my own opinion here.
> >
> > Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
> >
> > It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
> >
> > My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> > *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.
> >
> > Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> > Kuon@Greek:dog.
> > Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> > Kelev@Hebrew:dog
> >
> > Gow@Chinese:dog
> quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?

Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3? I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

> > Ken@Japanese:dog
> from Chinese of course

Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

>
> > Inu@Japanese:dog
> > Dingo@Australia:dog
> > Dog@Mbabaram:dog
> > Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka
> >
> > Anjing@Malay:dog
> > Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
> > Ari@India:pariah dog
> > Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls

> Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?

Not necessarily, according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)
atimw: animal that pulls
misatim: horse
misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

http://creeliteracy.org/for-language-learners/that-moniyaw-linguist-teaches-cree-verbs/

> >
> > Komatim@Eskimo:dogsled
> Actually komatik, more correctly qamutik

Thanks, I know I've read komatim once, possibly a dialect. But yes, I've read komatik.

> >
> > Perro@Spanish:dog ~1ka from carry/ferry?

Perro ~ ferry ~ ari ~ carry ~ cargo, were dogs outboard motors pulling bowl boats? I think so. (Today, no people use them in that way.) Replaced first by bark canoes, then dugout log canoes, then reed/bamboo rafts, then by sails?

[Daud Deden]

Dock/dog: quayside cargo carrier/puller? Longshoremen/stevedors = dockers

Use of name "dog" for industrial mechanisms to carry or pull?

docker (plural dockers) One who performs docking, as of tails.

dock (“wharf”) +‎ -er A dockworker.

Link or chance res. between wharf, warp-woof(weave), wolf-woof!

> > If this is correct, the process would have been similar to the one
> > that caused the ON etymon hundr, deductibly for a hunting dog, to
> > become the English term hound that people often use for any type of
> > dog.
>
> No, that's backwards. "Hound" has cognates throughout Germanic which
> mean "dog in general". It's only in Middle English that it narrows
> to the sense of "hunting dog".

hond@Dutch:hound (spitz-type canid?)

> > BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
> > gloss    Canum : docgena

docg(en)a ~ sobajka@Russian:dog?

Note: The Hmong of Laos traditionally docked the tails of their hunting dogs. Dogs used for pulling bowl boats would need long tails which curled up, unlike wolves.
Note: There is a small proportion in Japanese population genetically which is shared with Hmong, perhaps showing their coastal route from the north.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 8:25:45 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 6:11:50 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 9:48:50 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
> > >
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
> > >
> > > I will put my own opinion here.
> > >
> > > Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
> > >
> > > It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
> > >
> > > My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> > > *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.
> > >
> > > Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> > > Kuon@Greek:dog.
> > > Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> > > Kelev@Hebrew:dog
> > >
> > > Gow@Chinese:dog
> > quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?
>
> Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3?

3rd tone. Could also be written quǎn.

I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

This list gives kkhwirʔ for Old Chinese "dog", whatever you make of that
phonetically.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Old_Chinese_Swadesh_list

Hundreds of old and new forms here, including some that look a bit like
your "gow":

http://stedt.berkeley.edu/~stedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/gnis?t=dog

As you may know, the *ku form in Chinese have been seriously
proposed as a possible early loan from IE.

If your "ow" means something like English "ow", keep in mind
that [au] and [ua] are found all over the world in human
representations of dog barking, and in words for dog.

Hemp is ma2 in Mandarin, probably remembered as part of the quartet
distinguished by different tones: mother/hemp/horse/curse

You're not thinking of hemp~horse, are you?

> > > Ken@Japanese:dog
> > from Chinese of course
> Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

Korean kae, don't know if that's Sino- or native.

> > > Inu@Japanese:dog
> > > Dingo@Australia:dog
> > > Dog@Mbabaram:dog
> > > Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka
> > >
> > > Anjing@Malay:dog
> > > Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
> > > Ari@India:pariah dog
> > > Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls
>
> > Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?
>
> Not necessarily,

Not necessarily what?
I told you a fact (that atimw is just the ordinary
Cree word for dog). Then I asked you a question. Apparently the answer
is "from somebody's blog":

according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)
> atimw: animal that pulls


> misatim: horse
> misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

These are of no interest except to show that the Cree have named some new
large quadrupeds that have come to their notice by analogy with the dog.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

No, it's generic for "dog".

> > > BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
> > > gloss    Canum : docgena
>
> docg(en)a ~ sobajka@Russian:dog?

That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
with kuon, etc. What on earth can the ~ mean here?

[Daud Deden]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 8:25:45 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 6:11:50 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 9:48:50 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
> > >
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
> > >
> > > I will put my own opinion here.
> > >
> > > Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
> > >
> > > It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
> > >
> > > My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> > > *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.
> > >
> > > Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> > > Kuon@Greek:dog.
> > > Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> > > Kelev@Hebrew:dog
> > >
> > > Gow@Chinese:dog
> > quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?
>
> Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3?

3rd tone. Could also be written quǎn.

Ok.

I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

This list gives kkhwirʔ for Old Chinese "dog", whatever you make of that
phonetically.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Old_Chinese_Swadesh_list

Hundreds of old and new forms here, including some that look a bit like
your "gow":

http://stedt.berkeley.edu/~stedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/gnis?t=dog

As you may know, the *ku form in Chinese have been seriously
proposed as a possible early loan from IE.

I'm holding on for "Phu Quoc" ~ kuon/kuan etc. Gow didn't fit well.

If your "ow" means something like English "ow", keep in mind
that [au] and [ua] are found all over the world in human
representations of dog barking, and in words for dog.

Yes, bowwow vs miaomiao.

Hemp is ma2 in Mandarin, probably remembered as part of the quartet
distinguished by different tones: mother/hemp/horse/curse

-
Ok, maybe so. Stallion = meat; mare = ma=mother=m.udder=milk.
-

You're not thinking of hemp~horse, are you?

-
No. Were early horse ropes of hemp? Mongols rode on horse-mane/tail saddle blankets, prevented saddle sores.
-

> > > Ken@Japanese:dog
> > from Chinese of course
> Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

Korean kae, don't know if that's Sino- or native.

> > > Inu@Japanese:dog
> > > Dingo@Australia:dog
> > > Dog@Mbabaram:dog
> > > Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka
> > >
> > > Anjing@Malay:dog
> > > Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
> > > Ari@India:pariah dog
> > > Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls
>
> > Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?
>
> Not necessarily,

Not necessarily what?

-
Specifically only dog. Possibly human (Athabaskans (west of Cree, same climate) in soft high snow, dogs hunted, guarded, rode, didn't pull.)
-

I told you a fact (that atimw is just the ordinary
Cree word for dog). Then I asked you a question. Apparently the answer
is "from somebody's blog":

-
Yes, a Cree teacher/linguist.
-

according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)
> atimw: animal that pulls

-
A Cree language specialist didn't specify dog only, so I have reasonable doubt. I prefer atimw=dog, it matches komatik & ari better.

Xolo(tl)@Aztec: dog? ~ kelev?
Techichi@Aztec: chihuahua ancestor

> misatim: horse
> misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

These are of no interest except to show that the Cree have named some new
large quadrupeds that have come to their notice by analogy with the dog.

-
Yes, but lion may refer to native mountain lion-puma-cougar?

I use ~ to mean approx. or similar to, but not verified exactly identical. Eg. A near-cognate that might actually be cognate but uncertain.

- show quoted text -

[Daud Deden]

BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
> > > gloss Canum : docgena
>
> docg(en)a ~ sobajka@Russian:dog?

That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
with kuon, etc.

-
I thought maybe "dzobajnga" gave rise to both terms, guessing.
-

What on earth can the ~ mean here?

-
Similar/approximately/possible cognate, shorthand.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 1:47:34 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
> > > > gloss Canum : docgena
> >
> > docg(en)a ~ sobajka@Russian:dog?
>
> That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
> with kuon, etc.
> -
> I thought maybe "dzobajnga" gave rise to both terms, guessing.

I suppose "dzobainga" would be a dialect variant of "qudongca", in
the same imaginary language?

> What on earth can the ~ mean here?
> -
> Similar/approximately/possible cognate, shorthand.

I think I'll change metaphors. What you're doing is what I've called
(in its earlier appearances on sci.lang) mud-pie linguistics. It bears
approximately the same relation to actual comparative linguistics as
making mud-pies does to actual cooking. Of course children can enjoy
making mud-pies even if they're aware that they aren't real food. At
least they don't claim that mud-cooking is a more advanced form of what
grownups do.

[Daud Deden]

mud/müder/m.b.udder ~ milky
PIE.

{Wonderful idea, Ross, your brilliance out-shines the sun!!}

I'm engaged with the Mother of Proto-Indo European !

Thanks Ross.
-

Now back to bowwow, wangwang and woofwoof.

DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆
-

grownups do.h

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 10:59:20 PM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> PTD: The etymology of English "dog" is not knowable, because there are no
> attested early forms and no identifiable cognates in any known language.
>

An Italian trainer of rescue dogs that saved hundreds of people from drowning
says these animals have so very many almost mysterious abilities that they
should be called gods instead of dogs (turning dog around). In the light of
Magdalenian there is more than a joke. I reconstructed DhAG for able, good
in the sense of able, inverse GADh for good in the moral and ethic sense.
DhAG is the word of the most and most varied derivatives, including, I claim,
English dog. Another is Dagda, supreme Celtic god, from the emphatic doubling
DhAG DhAG able able, the good god in the sense of the able god (Barry Cunliffe).
You have a talent for word playing, but you are terribly misguided by your lack
of knowledge. You said you published 29 books, 28 on plants. If that is true,
you should have some knowledge about evolution and taxonomy in botanics.
Why do you lack that entirely when it comes to words? And don't you ever
consider that you compromit yourself as author of books on plants when you
spread nonsense on words in a global scientific forum? By the way, Greek kynos
for dog derives (in the light of Magdalenian) for GYN for woman, telling us
that women adopted wolf pups a long time ago, and by and by domesticated them,
We have some evidence that this happened for the first time more than 60,000
years ago. Word bling bling can't replace knowledge about the past.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <0f2ab73b-5c6b-4398...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,

10/6/2017, Daud Deden wrote:
> The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
>
> I will put my own opinion here.
>
> Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
>
> It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
>
> My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet
> Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred
> for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh)
> between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the
> mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian"
> & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South
> East Asia.
>
> Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> Kuon@Greek:dog.
> Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> Kelev@Hebrew:dog
>
> Gow@Chinese:dog
> Ken@Japanese:dog

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

[Daud Deden]

Franz, you rely on pictures, I do not. Your observations of myself and my work simply is not in my interest. If you focused only on the word sounds, it would be of higher interest to me. The rest is simply unmerited & misunderstood jealousy.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 11:44:30 PM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> Franz, you rely on pictures, I do not. Your observations of myself and my work simply is not in my interest. If you focused only on the word sounds, it would be of higher interest to me. The rest is simply unmerited & misunderstood jealousy.

Yes, I must be jealous because you are a diode (sic) and I am not. In the name
of the others who are envious: what makes David a diode? You have been asked
several times but never given an answer. Before you popped up in here we have
been plagued for four years by someone who knows the absolute and complete
and total truth. Are you a parallel case? do you get your wisdom from a divine
source above?

[Daud Deden]

---

Thread title: Paleo-etymology & dog@English, perro@Spanish, Kuon@Greek.

I'll ask & answer questions about that subject, because it is of interest to me.

The rest is secondary, for another day perhaps.

[Daud Deden]

On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 7:20:08 AM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> In <0f2ab73b-5c6b-4398...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
> 10/6/2017, Daud Deden wrote:
> > The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
> >
> > I will put my own opinion here.
> >
> > Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
> >
> > It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
> >
> > My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> > *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet
> > Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred
> > for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh)
> > between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the
> > mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian"
> > & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South
> > East Asia.
> >
> > Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> > Kuon@Greek:dog.
> > Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> > Kelev@Hebrew:dog
> >
> > Gow@Chinese:dog
> > Ken@Japanese:dog
>
> Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
> dogs spread.

I agree.

[Daud Deden]

kuan/quan@Chinese:dog (comestible-domestic-homed pig & dog 8ka Yangtze)

sag@Farsi:dog (sobaka@Russian:dog?)

Note: separ@Farsi:shield- spar.abara vs spear-spike-pike-pick

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <7b2ca3b7-8a2a-42f0...@googlegroups.com>, on Tuesday,

Yes. sobaka is from an Iranian langauge (probably NW variety)

Turkish köpek (usually domestic, it < ıt feral; it is vulgar language)

Uzbek kopak "domestic dog", it "feral dog" IIRC

These köpek etc. are the "Kentum" versions of sobaka

Arabic kalb- -b is an Afroasiatic "animal ending"

Most AA languages have kVl- others kVn- variety

>
> Note: separ@Farsi:shield- spar.abara vs spear-spike-pike-pick

Classical Persian sipar

[Daud Deden]

Thanks Yusuf. So Turkic & Russian canid terms linked to Iranian.

I was wondering about the rhythm of sobaka/kopek & gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram

but I don't see anything significant.

*(sk).o.(bp).a.ka vs.*(gk).u.(dt).a.(gk).a

xyua/sieve/show + baka/paca/dag.a/tak.a

Small point: I've heard of show dog and dog show, but never a hound show or show hound. Is it likely that dog shows were events where best hounds were selected and bred heavily (studs), while others were castrated or even eaten, perhaps during harvest festivals?

> >
> > Note: separ@Farsi:shield- spar.abara vs spear-spike-pike-pick
>
> Classical Persian sipar

sipar ~ xy.mbuatl ~ shy/skin/sky + par(asol/isal/ical@India)/mat (portable)
[related to kufa.r.igolu / guphar(wood) + iglu], daybowl vs mongolu moonbowl

[Daud Deden]

Top posting to refocus: Hypothesised dog domestication at Phu Quoc island linked to Belgium & China? Linguistic or cave depictions support?
-

Goyet Cave, Belgium contained remains of 31.7ka dog and 35ka man who shared genetic resemblance to 40ka man at Tianyuan Cave, Beijing China.

https://anthropology.net/2017/10/14/tianyuan-man-genome-reveals-the-nuances-of-asian-prehistory/

links to articles mentioned:
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)31195-8
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/6/2223
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27240370/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/worlds-first-dog-lived-years-ago-ate-big/#.WeI7H7pFzDd

As contributions from Upper Paleolithic populations in Eastern Eurasia to present-day humans and their relationship to other early Eurasians is not clear, we generated genome-wide data from a 40,000-year-old individual from Tianyuan Cave, China, [1, 7] to study his relationship to ancient and present-day humans. We find that he is more related to present-day and ancient Asians than he is to Europeans, but he shares more alleles with a 35,000-year-old European individual than he shares with other ancient Europeans, indicating that the separation between early Europeans and early Asians was not a single population split. We also find that the Tianyuan individual shares more alleles with some Native American groups in South America than with Native Americans elsewhere, providing further support for population substructure in Asia [8] and suggesting that this persisted from 40,000 years ago until the colonization of the Americas.
-
The nuclear DNA sequences determined from this early modern human reveal that the Tianyuan individual derived from a population that was ancestral to many present-day Asians and Native Americans but postdated the divergence of Asians from Europeans. They also show that this individual carried proportions of DNA variants derived from archaic humans similar to present-day people in mainland Asia.
-
An international team of scientists has just identified what they believe is the world's first known dog, which was a large and toothy canine that lived 31,700 years ago and subsisted on a diet of horse, musk ox and reindeer, according to a new study. Remains which were excavated at Goyet Cave in Belgium, suggest to the researchers that the Aurignacian people of Europe from the Upper Paleolithic period first domesticated dogs.
-

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 4:48:50 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <19d6147b-c6e5-4b6d...@googlegroups.com>, on

Or the Turkic term came from a Pre-Iranian source, as the Iranian word
has s- but k- is older. Think Kentum / Satem

At any rate, words describing animals are easily spread across
linguistic boundaries. The group that sees the animal or domesticates
or breeds it names it.

>
> I was wondering about the rhythm of sobaka/kopek & gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram
>
> but I don't see anything significant.

That's a change.

[Peter T. Daniels]

That lets in Tocharian.

[Daud Deden]

PIE root *ḱm̥tóm, "hundred"

300ka - 50ka, no-one had that word, nor a dog.

kmtom ~ xyuamb.uat-xyuamb ~ comb.ine-comb ~ hands/10 bind-tie-times hands/10 = 100

> At any rate, words describing animals are easily spread across
> linguistic boundaries. The group that sees the animal or domesticates
> or breeds it names it.

Only if it is distinct from others similar. Deliberate breeding produced deliberate naming.

> >
> > I was wondering about the rhythm of sobaka/kopek & gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram
> >
> > but I don't see anything significant.
>
> That's a change.

I hear much significant. But I don't know what languages were spoken early at Phu Quoc.

[Daud Deden]

Yusuf, I missed this nice parallel:

From Qu'oc/Ku'on/Qu'an,

-Turk/Russ/Farsi
Ko(p)ak->s(ob)ak(a)->sag

-Bari/Mbabaram
Ku(t)aka->(gu)dag(a)->dog

Now I need 'dog' in Samre Pear, Chamic, Hani, Yali, Bali.

[Daud Deden]

I found this:

sag@Akkadian:head
kalab@Akkadian:dog

Also found this very interesting bit:

"The Hebrew word for "help" is עזר (ezer, underlined in red above). The first letter in this word is an "ayin". In modern Hebrew this letter is silent but the ancient pronunciation was a soft "g" (gh) as in the word "ring". This word would have been pronounced "ghezer".

The Ugarit word Ugarit gezer (gezer) means "young man" and is spelled the same as ghezer except for the first letter which is a "gimel". " http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

[Daud Deden]

Also note:

zag@Akkadian:shining like copper
siparru@Akkadian:copper

On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 7:03:32 AM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:54:59 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> I found this:
>
> sag@Akkadian:head

No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.

> kalab@Akkadian:dog

No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

> Also found this very interesting bit:
>
> "The Hebrew word for "help" is עזר (ezer, underlined in red above). The first letter in this word is an "ayin". In modern Hebrew this letter is silent but the ancient pronunciation was a soft "g" (gh) as in the word "ring". This word would have been pronounced "ghezer".

That is utterly wrong. There was a pronunciation tradition, very limited in
extent, where `ayin had somehow turned into "ng." It never spread to other
traditions of reading Hebrew, and it has NO warrant in "ancient pronunciation."
It was pronounced as it is in Arabic today, as a voiced pharyngeal fricative.

> The Ugarit word Ugarit gezer (gezer) means "young man" and is spelled the same as ghezer except for the first letter which is a "gimel". " http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

No idea what that's supposed to mean. (For one thing, there's no "e" in Ugaritic.)

> So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

?