Paleo-etymology & dog@English, perro@Spanish, Kuon@Greek

[Daud Deden]

The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang

I will put my own opinion here.

Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).

It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.

My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
*qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.

Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
Kuon@Greek:dog.
Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
Kelev@Hebrew:dog

Gow@Chinese:dog
Ken@Japanese:dog

Inu@Japanese:dog
Dingo@Australia:dog
Dog@Mbabaram:dog
Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka

Anjing@Malay:dog
Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
Ari@India:pariah dog
Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls

Komatim@Eskimo:dogsled

Perro@Spanish:dog ~1ka from carry/ferry?, brought by Visigoths from Morocco Atlas mountains? The Amazigt Berbers of that area use 5 dogs to hunt, 4 bite the 4 heels to stop prey, one clamps down on the throat to kill.

*qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

[Daud Deden]

-
PTD: The etymology of English "dog" is not knowable, because there are no
attested early forms and no identifiable cognates in any known language.

nor: The OED gives the following spellings of the OE ancestor of dog:
docga, dogge, doggue, doig, dogg.

Based on the close resemblance these words, and particulary docga,
bare to the OE etymons dok, docke, and dock of Eng. dock for a type of
tail and its Icelandic cognate dockr for a 'short stumpy tail', there
are, imo, reasons for believing that these OE words for a dog may have
been derived to differentiate a Northern European dog or dogs with
short tails, such as the J�mthund, from dogs with longer tails, and
the word was subsequently generalized to include all dogs.

If this is correct, the process would have been similar to the one
that caused the ON etymon hundr, deductibly for a hunting dog, to
become the English term hound that people often use for any type of
dog.

BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
gloss    Canum : docgena

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 9:48:50 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
>
> I will put my own opinion here.
>
> Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
>
> It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
>
> My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.
>
> Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> Kuon@Greek:dog.
> Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> Kelev@Hebrew:dog
>
> Gow@Chinese:dog

quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?
> Ken@Japanese:dog
from Chinese of course

> Inu@Japanese:dog
> Dingo@Australia:dog
> Dog@Mbabaram:dog
> Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka
>
> Anjing@Malay:dog
> Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
> Ari@India:pariah dog
> Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls

Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?
>
> Komatim@Eskimo:dogsled
Actually komatik, more correctly qamutik

>
> Perro@Spanish:dog ~1ka from carry/ferry?, brought by Visigoths from Morocco Atlas mountains? The Amazigt Berbers of that area use 5 dogs to hunt, 4 bite the 4 heels to stop prey, one clamps down on the throat to kill.
>
> *qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

Dog's breakfast.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

No, that's backwards. "Hound" has cognates throughout Germanic which
mean "dog in general". It's only in Middle English that it narrows
to the sense of "hunting dog".

[Daud Deden]

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 6:11:50 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 9:48:50 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
> >
> > I will put my own opinion here.
> >
> > Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
> >
> > It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
> >
> > My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> > *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.
> >
> > Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> > Kuon@Greek:dog.
> > Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> > Kelev@Hebrew:dog
> >
> > Gow@Chinese:dog
> quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?

Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3? I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

> > Ken@Japanese:dog
> from Chinese of course

Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

>
> > Inu@Japanese:dog
> > Dingo@Australia:dog
> > Dog@Mbabaram:dog
> > Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka
> >
> > Anjing@Malay:dog
> > Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
> > Ari@India:pariah dog
> > Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls

> Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?

Not necessarily, according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)
atimw: animal that pulls
misatim: horse
misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

http://creeliteracy.org/for-language-learners/that-moniyaw-linguist-teaches-cree-verbs/

> >
> > Komatim@Eskimo:dogsled
> Actually komatik, more correctly qamutik

Thanks, I know I've read komatim once, possibly a dialect. But yes, I've read komatik.

> >
> > Perro@Spanish:dog ~1ka from carry/ferry?

Perro ~ ferry ~ ari ~ carry ~ cargo, were dogs outboard motors pulling bowl boats? I think so. (Today, no people use them in that way.) Replaced first by bark canoes, then dugout log canoes, then reed/bamboo rafts, then by sails?

[Daud Deden]

Dock/dog: quayside cargo carrier/puller? Longshoremen/stevedors = dockers

Use of name "dog" for industrial mechanisms to carry or pull?

docker (plural dockers) One who performs docking, as of tails.

dock (“wharf”) +‎ -er A dockworker.

Link or chance res. between wharf, warp-woof(weave), wolf-woof!

> > If this is correct, the process would have been similar to the one
> > that caused the ON etymon hundr, deductibly for a hunting dog, to
> > become the English term hound that people often use for any type of
> > dog.
>
> No, that's backwards. "Hound" has cognates throughout Germanic which
> mean "dog in general". It's only in Middle English that it narrows
> to the sense of "hunting dog".

hond@Dutch:hound (spitz-type canid?)

> > BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
> > gloss    Canum : docgena

docg(en)a ~ sobajka@Russian:dog?

Note: The Hmong of Laos traditionally docked the tails of their hunting dogs. Dogs used for pulling bowl boats would need long tails which curled up, unlike wolves.
Note: There is a small proportion in Japanese population genetically which is shared with Hmong, perhaps showing their coastal route from the north.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 8:25:45 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 6:11:50 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 9:48:50 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
> > >
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
> > >
> > > I will put my own opinion here.
> > >
> > > Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
> > >
> > > It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
> > >
> > > My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> > > *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.
> > >
> > > Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> > > Kuon@Greek:dog.
> > > Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> > > Kelev@Hebrew:dog
> > >
> > > Gow@Chinese:dog
> > quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?
>
> Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3?

3rd tone. Could also be written quǎn.

I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

This list gives kkhwirʔ for Old Chinese "dog", whatever you make of that
phonetically.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Old_Chinese_Swadesh_list

Hundreds of old and new forms here, including some that look a bit like
your "gow":

http://stedt.berkeley.edu/~stedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/gnis?t=dog

As you may know, the *ku form in Chinese have been seriously
proposed as a possible early loan from IE.

If your "ow" means something like English "ow", keep in mind
that [au] and [ua] are found all over the world in human
representations of dog barking, and in words for dog.

Hemp is ma2 in Mandarin, probably remembered as part of the quartet
distinguished by different tones: mother/hemp/horse/curse

You're not thinking of hemp~horse, are you?

> > > Ken@Japanese:dog
> > from Chinese of course
> Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

Korean kae, don't know if that's Sino- or native.

> > > Inu@Japanese:dog
> > > Dingo@Australia:dog
> > > Dog@Mbabaram:dog
> > > Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka
> > >
> > > Anjing@Malay:dog
> > > Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
> > > Ari@India:pariah dog
> > > Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls
>
> > Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?
>
> Not necessarily,

Not necessarily what?
I told you a fact (that atimw is just the ordinary
Cree word for dog). Then I asked you a question. Apparently the answer
is "from somebody's blog":

according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)
> atimw: animal that pulls


> misatim: horse
> misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

These are of no interest except to show that the Cree have named some new
large quadrupeds that have come to their notice by analogy with the dog.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

No, it's generic for "dog".

> > > BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
> > > gloss    Canum : docgena
>
> docg(en)a ~ sobajka@Russian:dog?

That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
with kuon, etc. What on earth can the ~ mean here?

[Daud Deden]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 8:25:45 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 6:11:50 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 9:48:50 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
> > >
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
> > >
> > > I will put my own opinion here.
> > >
> > > Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
> > >
> > > It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
> > >
> > > My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> > > *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh) between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.
> > >
> > > Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> > > Kuon@Greek:dog.
> > > Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> > > Kelev@Hebrew:dog
> > >
> > > Gow@Chinese:dog
> > quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?
>
> Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3?

3rd tone. Could also be written quǎn.

Ok.

I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

This list gives kkhwirʔ for Old Chinese "dog", whatever you make of that
phonetically.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Old_Chinese_Swadesh_list

Hundreds of old and new forms here, including some that look a bit like
your "gow":

http://stedt.berkeley.edu/~stedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/gnis?t=dog

As you may know, the *ku form in Chinese have been seriously
proposed as a possible early loan from IE.

I'm holding on for "Phu Quoc" ~ kuon/kuan etc. Gow didn't fit well.

If your "ow" means something like English "ow", keep in mind
that [au] and [ua] are found all over the world in human
representations of dog barking, and in words for dog.

Yes, bowwow vs miaomiao.

Hemp is ma2 in Mandarin, probably remembered as part of the quartet
distinguished by different tones: mother/hemp/horse/curse

-
Ok, maybe so. Stallion = meat; mare = ma=mother=m.udder=milk.
-

You're not thinking of hemp~horse, are you?

-
No. Were early horse ropes of hemp? Mongols rode on horse-mane/tail saddle blankets, prevented saddle sores.
-

> > > Ken@Japanese:dog
> > from Chinese of course
> Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

Korean kae, don't know if that's Sino- or native.

> > > Inu@Japanese:dog
> > > Dingo@Australia:dog
> > > Dog@Mbabaram:dog
> > > Dog@English:dog ~1.4ka
> > >
> > > Anjing@Malay:dog
> > > Ari@KhoiKhoi:ridgeback hunting dog
> > > Ari@India:pariah dog
> > > Atimw@Cree:animal that pulls
>
> > Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?
>
> Not necessarily,

Not necessarily what?

-
Specifically only dog. Possibly human (Athabaskans (west of Cree, same climate) in soft high snow, dogs hunted, guarded, rode, didn't pull.)
-

I told you a fact (that atimw is just the ordinary
Cree word for dog). Then I asked you a question. Apparently the answer
is "from somebody's blog":

-
Yes, a Cree teacher/linguist.
-

according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)
> atimw: animal that pulls

-
A Cree language specialist didn't specify dog only, so I have reasonable doubt. I prefer atimw=dog, it matches komatik & ari better.

Xolo(tl)@Aztec: dog? ~ kelev?
Techichi@Aztec: chihuahua ancestor

> misatim: horse
> misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

These are of no interest except to show that the Cree have named some new
large quadrupeds that have come to their notice by analogy with the dog.

-
Yes, but lion may refer to native mountain lion-puma-cougar?

I use ~ to mean approx. or similar to, but not verified exactly identical. Eg. A near-cognate that might actually be cognate but uncertain.

- show quoted text -

[Daud Deden]

BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
> > > gloss Canum : docgena
>
> docg(en)a ~ sobajka@Russian:dog?

That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
with kuon, etc.

-
I thought maybe "dzobajnga" gave rise to both terms, guessing.
-

What on earth can the ~ mean here?

-
Similar/approximately/possible cognate, shorthand.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 1:47:34 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
> > > > gloss Canum : docgena
> >
> > docg(en)a ~ sobajka@Russian:dog?
>
> That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
> with kuon, etc.
> -
> I thought maybe "dzobajnga" gave rise to both terms, guessing.

I suppose "dzobainga" would be a dialect variant of "qudongca", in
the same imaginary language?

> What on earth can the ~ mean here?
> -
> Similar/approximately/possible cognate, shorthand.

I think I'll change metaphors. What you're doing is what I've called
(in its earlier appearances on sci.lang) mud-pie linguistics. It bears
approximately the same relation to actual comparative linguistics as
making mud-pies does to actual cooking. Of course children can enjoy
making mud-pies even if they're aware that they aren't real food. At
least they don't claim that mud-cooking is a more advanced form of what
grownups do.

[Daud Deden]

mud/müder/m.b.udder ~ milky
PIE.

{Wonderful idea, Ross, your brilliance out-shines the sun!!}

I'm engaged with the Mother of Proto-Indo European !

Thanks Ross.
-

Now back to bowwow, wangwang and woofwoof.

DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆
-

grownups do.h

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 10:59:20 PM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
>
> PTD: The etymology of English "dog" is not knowable, because there are no
> attested early forms and no identifiable cognates in any known language.
>

An Italian trainer of rescue dogs that saved hundreds of people from drowning
says these animals have so very many almost mysterious abilities that they
should be called gods instead of dogs (turning dog around). In the light of
Magdalenian there is more than a joke. I reconstructed DhAG for able, good
in the sense of able, inverse GADh for good in the moral and ethic sense.
DhAG is the word of the most and most varied derivatives, including, I claim,
English dog. Another is Dagda, supreme Celtic god, from the emphatic doubling
DhAG DhAG able able, the good god in the sense of the able god (Barry Cunliffe).
You have a talent for word playing, but you are terribly misguided by your lack
of knowledge. You said you published 29 books, 28 on plants. If that is true,
you should have some knowledge about evolution and taxonomy in botanics.
Why do you lack that entirely when it comes to words? And don't you ever
consider that you compromit yourself as author of books on plants when you
spread nonsense on words in a global scientific forum? By the way, Greek kynos
for dog derives (in the light of Magdalenian) for GYN for woman, telling us
that women adopted wolf pups a long time ago, and by and by domesticated them,
We have some evidence that this happened for the first time more than 60,000
years ago. Word bling bling can't replace knowledge about the past.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <0f2ab73b-5c6b-4398...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,

10/6/2017, Daud Deden wrote:
> The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
>
> I will put my own opinion here.
>
> Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
>
> It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
>
> My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet
> Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred
> for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh)
> between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the
> mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian"
> & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South
> East Asia.
>
> Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> Kuon@Greek:dog.
> Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> Kelev@Hebrew:dog
>
> Gow@Chinese:dog
> Ken@Japanese:dog

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

[Daud Deden]

Franz, you rely on pictures, I do not. Your observations of myself and my work simply is not in my interest. If you focused only on the word sounds, it would be of higher interest to me. The rest is simply unmerited & misunderstood jealousy.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 11:44:30 PM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> Franz, you rely on pictures, I do not. Your observations of myself and my work simply is not in my interest. If you focused only on the word sounds, it would be of higher interest to me. The rest is simply unmerited & misunderstood jealousy.

Yes, I must be jealous because you are a diode (sic) and I am not. In the name
of the others who are envious: what makes David a diode? You have been asked
several times but never given an answer. Before you popped up in here we have
been plagued for four years by someone who knows the absolute and complete
and total truth. Are you a parallel case? do you get your wisdom from a divine
source above?

[Daud Deden]

---

Thread title: Paleo-etymology & dog@English, perro@Spanish, Kuon@Greek.

I'll ask & answer questions about that subject, because it is of interest to me.

The rest is secondary, for another day perhaps.

[Daud Deden]

On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 7:20:08 AM UTC-4, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> In <0f2ab73b-5c6b-4398...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,
> 10/6/2017, Daud Deden wrote:
> > The 2014 thread on the OED etymology includes much about dog@English.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
> >
> > I will put my own opinion here.
> >
> > Dog@English = dog/gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram(Queensland, Austl).
> >
> > It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
> >
> > My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
> > *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet
> > Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred
> > for pulling small bowl-boats(arigolu@India/parical@India/coracle@Welsh)
> > between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the
> > mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian"
> > & Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South
> > East Asia.
> >
> > Can(em/is/id)@Latin:dog
> > Kuon@Greek:dog.
> > Kutaka@Mbabaram:dog
> > Kelev@Hebrew:dog
> >
> > Gow@Chinese:dog
> > Ken@Japanese:dog
>
> Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
> dogs spread.

I agree.

[Daud Deden]

kuan/quan@Chinese:dog (comestible-domestic-homed pig & dog 8ka Yangtze)

sag@Farsi:dog (sobaka@Russian:dog?)

Note: separ@Farsi:shield- spar.abara vs spear-spike-pike-pick

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <7b2ca3b7-8a2a-42f0...@googlegroups.com>, on Tuesday,

Yes. sobaka is from an Iranian langauge (probably NW variety)

Turkish köpek (usually domestic, it < ıt feral; it is vulgar language)

Uzbek kopak "domestic dog", it "feral dog" IIRC

These köpek etc. are the "Kentum" versions of sobaka

Arabic kalb- -b is an Afroasiatic "animal ending"

Most AA languages have kVl- others kVn- variety

>
> Note: separ@Farsi:shield- spar.abara vs spear-spike-pike-pick

Classical Persian sipar

[Daud Deden]

Thanks Yusuf. So Turkic & Russian canid terms linked to Iranian.

I was wondering about the rhythm of sobaka/kopek & gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram

but I don't see anything significant.

*(sk).o.(bp).a.ka vs.*(gk).u.(dt).a.(gk).a

xyua/sieve/show + baka/paca/dag.a/tak.a

Small point: I've heard of show dog and dog show, but never a hound show or show hound. Is it likely that dog shows were events where best hounds were selected and bred heavily (studs), while others were castrated or even eaten, perhaps during harvest festivals?

> >
> > Note: separ@Farsi:shield- spar.abara vs spear-spike-pike-pick
>
> Classical Persian sipar

sipar ~ xy.mbuatl ~ shy/skin/sky + par(asol/isal/ical@India)/mat (portable)
[related to kufa.r.igolu / guphar(wood) + iglu], daybowl vs mongolu moonbowl

[Daud Deden]

Top posting to refocus: Hypothesised dog domestication at Phu Quoc island linked to Belgium & China? Linguistic or cave depictions support?
-

Goyet Cave, Belgium contained remains of 31.7ka dog and 35ka man who shared genetic resemblance to 40ka man at Tianyuan Cave, Beijing China.

https://anthropology.net/2017/10/14/tianyuan-man-genome-reveals-the-nuances-of-asian-prehistory/

links to articles mentioned:
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)31195-8
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/6/2223
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27240370/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/worlds-first-dog-lived-years-ago-ate-big/#.WeI7H7pFzDd

As contributions from Upper Paleolithic populations in Eastern Eurasia to present-day humans and their relationship to other early Eurasians is not clear, we generated genome-wide data from a 40,000-year-old individual from Tianyuan Cave, China, [1, 7] to study his relationship to ancient and present-day humans. We find that he is more related to present-day and ancient Asians than he is to Europeans, but he shares more alleles with a 35,000-year-old European individual than he shares with other ancient Europeans, indicating that the separation between early Europeans and early Asians was not a single population split. We also find that the Tianyuan individual shares more alleles with some Native American groups in South America than with Native Americans elsewhere, providing further support for population substructure in Asia [8] and suggesting that this persisted from 40,000 years ago until the colonization of the Americas.
-
The nuclear DNA sequences determined from this early modern human reveal that the Tianyuan individual derived from a population that was ancestral to many present-day Asians and Native Americans but postdated the divergence of Asians from Europeans. They also show that this individual carried proportions of DNA variants derived from archaic humans similar to present-day people in mainland Asia.
-
An international team of scientists has just identified what they believe is the world's first known dog, which was a large and toothy canine that lived 31,700 years ago and subsisted on a diet of horse, musk ox and reindeer, according to a new study. Remains which were excavated at Goyet Cave in Belgium, suggest to the researchers that the Aurignacian people of Europe from the Upper Paleolithic period first domesticated dogs.
-

On Friday, October 6, 2017 at 4:48:50 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <19d6147b-c6e5-4b6d...@googlegroups.com>, on

Or the Turkic term came from a Pre-Iranian source, as the Iranian word
has s- but k- is older. Think Kentum / Satem

At any rate, words describing animals are easily spread across
linguistic boundaries. The group that sees the animal or domesticates
or breeds it names it.

>
> I was wondering about the rhythm of sobaka/kopek & gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram
>
> but I don't see anything significant.

That's a change.

[Peter T. Daniels]

That lets in Tocharian.

[Daud Deden]

PIE root *ḱm̥tóm, "hundred"

300ka - 50ka, no-one had that word, nor a dog.

kmtom ~ xyuamb.uat-xyuamb ~ comb.ine-comb ~ hands/10 bind-tie-times hands/10 = 100

> At any rate, words describing animals are easily spread across
> linguistic boundaries. The group that sees the animal or domesticates
> or breeds it names it.

Only if it is distinct from others similar. Deliberate breeding produced deliberate naming.

> >
> > I was wondering about the rhythm of sobaka/kopek & gudaga/kutaka@Mbabaram
> >
> > but I don't see anything significant.
>
> That's a change.

I hear much significant. But I don't know what languages were spoken early at Phu Quoc.

[Daud Deden]

Yusuf, I missed this nice parallel:

From Qu'oc/Ku'on/Qu'an,

-Turk/Russ/Farsi
Ko(p)ak->s(ob)ak(a)->sag

-Bari/Mbabaram
Ku(t)aka->(gu)dag(a)->dog

Now I need 'dog' in Samre Pear, Chamic, Hani, Yali, Bali.

[Daud Deden]

I found this:

sag@Akkadian:head
kalab@Akkadian:dog

Also found this very interesting bit:

"The Hebrew word for "help" is עזר (ezer, underlined in red above). The first letter in this word is an "ayin". In modern Hebrew this letter is silent but the ancient pronunciation was a soft "g" (gh) as in the word "ring". This word would have been pronounced "ghezer".

The Ugarit word Ugarit gezer (gezer) means "young man" and is spelled the same as ghezer except for the first letter which is a "gimel". " http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

[Daud Deden]

Also note:

zag@Akkadian:shining like copper
siparru@Akkadian:copper

On Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 7:03:32 AM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:54:59 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> I found this:
>
> sag@Akkadian:head

No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.

> kalab@Akkadian:dog

No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

> Also found this very interesting bit:
>
> "The Hebrew word for "help" is עזר (ezer, underlined in red above). The first letter in this word is an "ayin". In modern Hebrew this letter is silent but the ancient pronunciation was a soft "g" (gh) as in the word "ring". This word would have been pronounced "ghezer".

That is utterly wrong. There was a pronunciation tradition, very limited in
extent, where `ayin had somehow turned into "ng." It never spread to other
traditions of reading Hebrew, and it has NO warrant in "ancient pronunciation."
It was pronounced as it is in Arabic today, as a voiced pharyngeal fricative.

> The Ugarit word Ugarit gezer (gezer) means "young man" and is spelled the same as ghezer except for the first letter which is a "gimel". " http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

No idea what that's supposed to mean. (For one thing, there's no "e" in Ugaritic.)

> So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:58:30 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> Also note:
>
> zag@Akkadian:shining like copper

Wrong. Sumerian.

> siparru@Akkadian:copper

Looks like a loanword from Sumerian. What does the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary say?

[Daud Deden]

Thanks Peter, I don't know. I noted similarity between siparru & Persian sipar:shield.

(My computer is behaving badly again, can't view older threads.)

[Daud Deden]

On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:44:23 PM UTC-5, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:54:59 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > I found this:
> >
> > sag@Akkadian:head
>
> No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
> languages you go fishing in.

I copied straight from source, edited for brevity.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <3cfde05f-bde2-4b28...@googlegroups.com>, on

Thursday, 10/19/2017, Daud Deden wrote:
> I found this:
>
> sag@Akkadian:head
> kalab@Akkadian:dog
>
> Also found this very interesting bit:
>
> "The Hebrew word for "help" is עזר (ezer, underlined in red above). The
> first letter in this word is an "ayin". In modern Hebrew this letter is
> silent but the ancient pronunciation was a soft "g" (gh) as in the word
> "ring". This word would have been pronounced "ghezer".
>
> The Ugarit word Ugarit gezer (gezer) means "young man" and is spelled the
> same as ghezer except for the first letter which is a "gimel". "
> http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html
>
> So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.
>

As Peter T. Daniels said not "ng". But at the time of the LXX Hebrew
had preserved PSem */*gh*/ as we know from Greek transcriptions which
later merged with /3/. The alphabet is based on Phoenician where the
merger had taken place earlier. but עזר "help" was always with 3 . The
Arabic cognate is 3a*dh*ara "he excused" (usual) "he helped" (rare),
Sabaic <3*dh*r> "he helped". No Old Hebrew * *gh*ezer "help."

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <2d15c6f2-4e5c-464e...@googlegroups.com>, on

I don't have a further etymology for that, other than Old Persian spar,
"shield" Sanskrit sphara "shield" (my Turkish etymological dictionary
says the Sanskrit word is a loanword from Persian, but I take the
author with a grain of salt)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 6:33:46 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:44:23 PM UTC-5, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:54:59 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > I found this:
> > >
> > > sag@Akkadian:head
> >
> > No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
> > languages you go fishing in.
>
> I copied straight from source, edited for brevity.

If "source" told you that SAG is Akkadian, then stop using "source."

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le vendredi 20 octobre 2017 00:33:46 UTC+2, Daud Deden a écrit :
> On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:44:23 PM UTC-5, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:54:59 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > I found this:
> > >
> > > sag@Akkadian:head
> >
> > No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
> > languages you go fishing in.
>
> I copied straight from source, edited for brevity.

It seems you're too incompetent to be able to use the sources you read.
A.

[Arnaud Fournet]

it's interesting to note that we have two words with k/g versus s/z alternations.
iron: (ha)-balki, (ha)-barki versus Semitic barzilu
copper: kabali, kupros versus siparru
I suspect Luwian is the source of the transfer of Anatolian words toward Mesopotamia and the language where the sound change occurred.
A.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le jeudi 19 octobre 2017 23:44:23 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:54:59 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> > I found this:
> >
> > sag@Akkadian:head
>
> No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
> languages you go fishing in.
>
> > kalab@Akkadian:dog
>
> No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

Actually kalab is the construct form:
kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.
A.

[Peter T. Daniels]

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at grammars of Semitic languages.

[Arnaud Fournet]

possibly so, but as usual, you PTD is wrong.
You claim kalab does not exist, and it does.
Now you contradict yourself.
A.

[Daud Deden]

Apparently Old Persian and Sanskrit didn't have separate vowel 'i' character?
It must have been there though:

sipar@Persian: shield ~ chimalli@Aztec: shield ~ *XY(a)(M/b/P)a(R/LL)I from *Xyambuatlay ~ cy.mbal/skin.bell/an.vil(turtle shell/swell/mabul) ~ sy.mbol/(s/c)hine.brand ~ *tot.em.blem ~ tamga-tamag@Mongolian:s.tamp/blaze/brand ~ (*xy)ntjr@AncEgypt.:signature

(Same stuff in European heraldry, see Roundels thread.)

[Daud Deden]

xolo@Aztec: dog
k(e/a)l(e/a)(b/v/u)@Semitic: dog (+m = plural?)

Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)

ezpz

[Peter T. Daniels]

I never said anything of the sort.

If you can't tell the difference between a citation form and an inflection,
you're even more ignorant than we thought.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, October 20, 2017 at 12:30:29 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

> Apparently Old Persian and Sanskrit didn't have separate vowel 'i' character?
> It must have been there though:

Where did you get that particular bit of nonsense?

Charts of both scripts are actually available on The Web. Try omniglot.

[Daud Deden]

A. what language is kabali? coppery xya(m)b(u)a(t)l(a)y shine.body show.booty

A roundshield was a turtle shell, an umbo copper sheet was formed on an anvil.

[Daud Deden]

Peter, I said "It must have been there though".

If I'd said "may" or "might", I'd consider your advice helpful, but not this time.

Syabas!

shukria syukran todaraba tanleawat tadlimat selamat tanganlima terima teruma xyaduof doff duffle aloft

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, October 20, 2017 at 1:59:29 PM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:

> Peter, I said "It must have been there though".
>
> If I'd said "may" or "might", I'd consider your advice helpful, but not this time.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <aab94646-d9a9-4c08...@googlegroups.com>, on Friday,

The -b in Semitic kalb- is an "animal ending". One finds -b (mostly
wild animals), -r. -l (mostly domestic animals)

kalb- is the stem. -u- indicates the nominative. final -m is the
"mimation", the termination of the case ending that drops in the
construct state.

>
> Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)
>
> ezpz

[Daud Deden]

Kabali copper.y cup.per/cooper(cask maker)
Pahar@Sum:pot.ter.y
Copotter/xyuambuatla water cup kavadi?

[Arnaud Fournet]

for your information, Toddler Daud, kabali / kabalum are attested in Hurrian and Eblaite.
A.

[Daud Deden]

Khaybar ~ copper

The lava caves and "gates" of Harrat Khaybar (White Mountain) are in the news today. Scientists have known about this region for 30 years. This is the region of biblical Dedan and Ophir, described as rich in precious metals. This is probably the oldest known site of recovery of copper and gold, and the miners lived in the caves, many of which collapsed long ago. ht@AL

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228491446_THE_LAVA_CAVES_OF_KHAYBAR_SAUDI_ARABIA

[Daud Deden]

Thanks Yusuf, I don't understand the details, but appreciate that.


>
> >
> > Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)
> >
> > ezpz

[Daud Deden]

Chimal@Aztec: shield
Cymbal@English: cymbal
Sipar@Persian: shield
*Qupharigolu: coracle
Kuphos@Greek: cup
Topa@Hindi: coracle
Teba@Hebrew: ark

[DKleinecke]

Etymology is a science where vowels count for nothing and consonants for very little.

Voltaire

As quoted in: Max Müller Lectures on the Science of Language (2nd series, 1864) 'On the Principles of Etymology'

[Peter T. Daniels]

Whence quoted by Leonard Bloomfield in: Language (1933; UK ed. with different phonemicization of
English, 1935)

Unfortunately no one has ever found anywhere that Voltaire said anything like it. Perhaps he
was Oscar (Wilde or Levant) or James A. McNeill (Whistler) _avant la lettre_.

[Arnaud Fournet]

yes, it sounds like something Voltaire could have written, but indeed there's no reference in what Voltaire actually wrote that is known to us and looks like that.
A.

[Daud Deden]

On Sunday, October 22, 2017 at 11:55:31 AM UTC-5, DKleinecke wrote:
> On Sunday, October 22, 2017 at 7:36:09 AM UTC-7, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Chimal@Aztec: shield
> > Cymbal@English: cymbal
> > Sipar@Persian: shield
> > *Qupharigolu: coracle
> > Kuphos@Greek: cup
> > Topa@Hindi: coracle
> > Teba@Hebrew: ark
>
> Etymology is a science where vowels count for nothing and consonants for very little.

Counting is Neo-etymology.

[Daud Deden]

So possibly xolo(tl)@Aztec:dog ~ kele(b/v/bu)@Semitic:dog
-
Now here's of interest:

1st recall:
-Bhimbetke cave (wall pictures) at Narmada River, Central India, near 2 fossil Pygmy skeletons est. age 80ka + & 300ka;
-Madjebembe Cave, Queensland, Austl, wall pictures est. age ~65ka
-ebembe@Mbuti:body paint ~ pimple/mabul@Heb:swelling/pimp/ink/primp/pomp/font

---

Assyrian cuneiform clay tablets as they were discovered inside a clay vessel at the Bronze Age city site of Bassetki (Mitanni, Assyrian, Kurdistan)
-
Note: Bassetki ~ Basenji dog of Congo.
-

It is not yet known if the tablets contain business, legal, or religious records. "Our philologist Dr. Betina Faist has deciphered one small fragment of a clay tablet. It mentions a temple to the goddess Gula, suggesting that we may be looking at a religious context," he adds.

Goddess Gula and her dog:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+goddess+gula+and+her+dog&safe=active&tbm=isch&source=iu&pf=m&ictx=1&fir=nNBJNedmNZwGHM%253A%252Cq7av5KM4W9z9tM%252C_&usg=__Cn50XVpq_To6CWbM2ZgjOE_XnQU%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkrZipjozXAhULQyYKHUx-D5cQ9QEIOjAG#imgrc=nNBJNedmNZwGHM:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/315744623851606349/?autologin=true

Picture of Basenji dog of Congo: http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/basenji#/slide/1

Does anyone agree that Gula's dog portrayed a Basenji, and that breed ended up in Congo with Bantu agriculturalists via trade, along with Asian domestic crops?

Note: The KhoiSan (Hottentot) hunting dog aka Rhodesian ridgeback is called Ari.

Note: Ari is lion in Hebrew
Note: Ari is dog in India (Ari, Pariah, Pye dog).
Note: Ari appears to refer to sunny/yellow-orange-ochre/tawny/dawn/aurat@Arabic:fur-hair zone re. sunburn/aura/aurora/hari@Malay:day/matahari@Malay:sun (bright eye)/harimao@Malay:tiger
Note: lion and ridgeback share mane/ruff



The intense work of reading and translating the 93 cuneiform tablets will begin in Germany


Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/10/archaeologists-uncover-cuneiform.html#33fyPj8O7kLjoolb.99

In recent months, the researchers excavated layers of settlement dating from the Early, Middle, and Late Bronze Age, as well as from the subsequent Assyrian period. "Our finds provide evidence that this early urban center in northern Mesopotamia was settled almost continuously from approximately 3000 to 600 BCE. That indicates that Bassetki was of key significance on important trade routes," Pfälzner says.






Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/10/archaeologists-uncover-cuneiform.html#33fyPj8O7kLjoolb.99




Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/10/archaeologists-uncover-cuneiform.html#33fyPj8O7kLjoolb.99

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Interesting dogs. (My uncle used to own one.) According to Wiki:

<<The name comes from the Lingala language of the Congo, mbwá na basɛ́nzi which means "village dogs".>>

So since mbwá definitely means "dog" in Lingala, it would appear that
basɛ́nzi means "villages". (I'm unable to confirm this from online resources
on Lingala.)
But wait! There's more!
<<The Azande and Mangbetu people from the northeastern Congo region
describe Basenjis, in the local Lingala language, as mbwá na basɛ́nzi. Translated, this means "dogs of the savages", or "dogs of the villagers".
In the Congo, the Basenji is also known as "dog of the bush."... The word basɛ́nzi itself is the plural form of mosɛ́nzi. In Swahili, another Bantu language, from East Africa, mbwa shenzi translates to “wild dog”.>>

Aha! Little Swahili-English dictionary translates -shenzi as "uncivilized".

[Daud Deden]

Assyrian cuneiform clay tablets as they were discovered inside a clay vessel at the Bronze Age city site of Bassetki (Mitanni, Assyrian, Kurdistan)
> -
> Note: Bassetki ~ Basenji dog of Congo.
> -
>
> It is not yet known if the tablets contain business, legal, or religious records. "Our philologist Dr. Betina Faist has deciphered one small fragment of a clay tablet. It mentions a temple to the goddess Gula, suggesting that we may be looking at a religious context," he adds.
>
> Goddess Gula and her dog:
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=the+goddess+gula+and+her+dog&safe=active&tbm=isch&source=iu&pf=m&ictx=1&fir=nNBJNedmNZwGHM%253A%252Cq7av5KM4W9z9tM%252C_&usg=__Cn50XVpq_To6CWbM2ZgjOE_XnQU%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkrZipjozXAhULQyYKHUx-D5cQ9QEIOjAG#imgrc=nNBJNedmNZwGHM:
>
> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/315744623851606349/?autologin=true
>
> Picture of Basenji dog of Congo: http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/basenji#/slide/1

Interesting dogs. (My uncle used to own one.) According to Wiki:

<<The name comes from the Lingala language of the Congo, mbwá na basɛ́nzi which means "village dogs".>>

So since mbwá definitely means "dog" in Lingala, it would appear that
basɛ́nzi means "villages". (I'm unable to confirm this from online resources
on Lingala.)
But wait! There's more!
<<The Azande and Mangbetu people from the northeastern Congo region
describe Basenjis, in the local Lingala language, as mbwá na basɛ́nzi. Translated, this means "dogs of the savages", or "dogs of the villagers".
In the Congo, the Basenji is also known as "dog of the bush."... The word basɛ́nzi itself is the plural form of mosɛ́nzi. In Swahili, another Bantu language, from East Africa, mbwa shenzi translates to “wild dog”.>>

Aha! Little Swahili-English dictionary translates -shenzi as "uncivilized".

-
Thanks Ross. 'African wild dogs' are an entirely different species of canid, genetically distant from basenjis and their close kin - grey wolves. I'm not sure which one is meant in Ki-Swahili.

Mu- individual
Ba- plural/communal

'Dog of villagers' sounds accurate, 'savages' is the slang that non-villagers (eg. Pygmies) use to describe villagers. Efe Pygmies often borrow dogs from their Bantu owners, Mbuti Pygmies traditionally did not use dogs. Basenji is a district in the Congo.

[Daud Deden]

Errata: "Nyama" (animal), rather than 'savages' above.

[Daud Deden]

> MP: "Serbs say "ker" for dog. Both, Croats and Serbs say "pas" for dog (official language). In Zagreb, locally, we say "cucak" [tsutsak] for dog".

[Daud Deden]

K...@Serb.slg:dog ~ curr@English ~ kelv/b@Hebrew ~ xolo@Aztec. cucak@Croat: dog ~ gudaga/sobak; pas@SerbCroat: dog ~ perro-burro-ferry-parisal@India: coracle, pariah-pye dog- ari@KhoiSan: ridgeback

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 9:08:56 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> K...@Serb.slg:dog ~ curr@English ~ kelv/b@Hebrew ~ xolo@Aztec. cucak@Croat: dog ~ gudaga/sobak; pas@SerbCroat: dog ~ perro-burro-ferry-parisal@India: coracle,

"India" here means Tamil (also parical)

[Daud Deden]

UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> K...@Serb.slg:dog ~ curr@English ~ kelv/b@Hebrew ~ xolo@Aztec. cucak@Croat: dog ~ gudaga/sobak; pas@SerbCroat: dog ~ perro-burro-ferry-parisal@India: coracle,

Parisal, parical, perical, parasol all from arigolu(oldest, inverse of
mongolu@Mbuti: domi-cile), topa@Hindi~qufa@Arabic ~teba@Hebrew:ark~tub@English:(en)du-ua(tr) vs boat:ua-ua(tl/ndu) cf wahwah/ua-ua@Cuban: bus; cf bwato@Lake Malawi Chichewa Bantu: dugout canoe; all linked to ferry/bear/fare/!hxaro@!kung/xyambuatla

[Daud Deden]

KS@NJ:

"ἄγγος angos@Greek: "vessel, vat" etc:
Etymology = Uncertain; many words for "vessel" are mentioned by Homer but are loaned from outside Indo-European, possibly Near Eastern.
ἄγγος • (ángos) n (genitive ἄγγεος or ἄγγους); third declension
vessel (to hold liquids), vat, pitcher, bucket, pail, wine-bowl
(for dry substances) cradle, cinerary urn, casket, coffin
(of body parts) womb, stomach"

Angos~ !hxaro ~ oXyuambuatlua

[Daud Deden]

Pas ~ basenji ~ Basetki, Kurdistan trade center picture of goddess Gula with curly-tailed dog.

8ka engravings Arabia leashed hunting (Canaan-Basenji) dogs

http://cuevadelapileta.blogspot.com/2017/11/these-may-be-worlds-first-images-of.html?m=1

[Arnaud Fournet]

This word is probably of Hurrian origin. Cf. angurini and angunni.
A.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le mardi 14 novembre 2017 23:31:25 UTC+1, Daud Deden a écrit :

> > MP: "Serbs say "ker" for dog. Both, Croats and Serbs say "pas" for dog (official language). In Zagreb, locally, we say "cucak" [tsutsak] for dog".

cucak "dog" => is this a Turkic word?
What is the usually received origin of this word?

[Daud Deden]

I don't know, to both comments.

[Daud Deden]

Mbwa/Mbua@Lingala Bantu: dog [IMO, first: mother=bitch cf. mother@Lingala Bantu: mama; cf ma@Chinese: mother=mare; mbo@Balinese-Javanese: mother]

Mbua ~ kua(n)@Chinese: dog, ~ kuo(n)@Greek: dog, ~ Quo(c) island, VN
(Xy/k/q)uambua?

China 8ka: comestible pigs and dogs raised under houses (cf Iban)
Arabia 8ka: engraving of curly-tailed dog = basenji x Canaan dog forebear?
Bassetki, Kurdistan: reference to goddess Gula (always shown with curly-tailed dog)

[Daud Deden]

Those words "should" match with coracle/arigolu@India/qufa/kuphos/cup.
(t/q/x)yambuatlaya/ndjuambuangualua daylight-(mon)golu-> ari-bungalo ~ angu(ni/tly) ... I'd expect Hurrian to match Hindi topa, teba Hebrew not tamil parical.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

In <79335c29-f97e-4b21...@googlegroups.com>, on Sunday,

IIRC it is Khotan (?), kucha, perhaps brought by Bulgahrs or Alans.
Turkish has kuçu kuçu for calling a dog.

[Daud Deden]

4ka Russian dog sacrifices - annual winter killing of a few old dogs may have been part of a boy's transition to hunter-warrior adult

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/11/archaeologists-find-mysterious-4000-year-old-dog-sacrifices-in-russia/

Not used as food, but possibly fur coat, hoodie?

[Daud Deden]

Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog
Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog
Kuon (Greek) dog
Ken (Japan) dog
Canis, canem (Latin) dog

Note below from a Hungarian visiting Lapps of Finland:

"Otherwise saamis are quite distant lingusistically but when i was there and an old woman are calling her dog "kuuutya", "kutyuska." "

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 1:26:36 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog
No, that's Proto-Paman. The Mbabaram word, which develops regularly
from it, is dɔk.
> Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog
Possibly from Slavic. See discussion of this and similar Uralic
words at
https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/files/54165300/DogWolfFU2004Koivulehto60.pdf

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 2:08:24 PM UTC+13, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 1:26:36 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog
> No, that's Proto-Paman. The Mbabaram word, which develops regularly
> from it, is dɔk.
> > Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog
> Possibly from Slavic. See discussion of this and similar Uralic
> words at
> https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/files/54165300/DogWolfFU2004Koivulehto60.pdf
> > Kuon (Greek) dog
> > Ken (Japan) dog

From Chinese, of course. Why not cite Mandarin quǎn?

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 2:26:36 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog
> Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog

There is no such language as "Saami Finn". And the Finnish word for dog does not sound anything like "kutyuska".

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 3:08:24 AM UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 1:26:36 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog
> No, that's Proto-Paman. The Mbabaram word, which develops regularly
> from it, is dɔk.
> > Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog
> Possibly from Slavic. See discussion of this and similar Uralic
> words at
> https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/files/54165300/DogWolfFU2004Koivulehto60.pdf

And obviously, the real Saami word is a cognate of older Finnish peni (still found in "penikka, pentu" = puppy).

[Daud Deden]

MB:

There is no such language as "Saami Finn". And the Finnish word for dog does not sound anything like "kutyuska".

Nor is there as Mbabaram Austl.

[Daud Deden]

Ashakish@Pawnee, Ricaree: dog

[Daud Deden]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
> Ashakish@Pawnee, Ricaree: dog
-

Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

atimw@Cree: animal that pulls, dog
anima(te/l)
immal@Sumerian: wild cow (general ungulate?)
nyama@Mbuti: animal
(b)inatang@Malay: animal
(b)intang@Malay: star
intan@Malay: spark.le (life-ember?)
(b)inti@Malay: daughter
(b)ini@Malay: wife

(b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?

anxax/ashakish
Ashakish@Pawnee, Ricaree: dog
anjing@Malay: dog
ajax from Greek Aiax/Aias, from aia earth.

In Mycenean Greek Ma-ka (transliterated as Ma-ga, "Mother Gaia") also contains the root ga-

In Greek mythology, Gaia (/ˈɡeɪ.ə/ or /ˈɡaɪ.ə/ from Ancient Greek Γαῖα, a poetical form of Γῆ Gē, "land" or "earth"[1]),

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 11:34:25 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Ashakish@Pawnee, Ricaree: dog
> -
>
> Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)
>
> atimw@Cree: animal that pulls, dog

just "dog" (I called you on this one before)
> anima(te/l)
PIE *anə- 'breathe'

> immal@Sumerian: wild cow (general ungulate?)
> nyama@Mbuti: animal

Proto-Bantu *ǹɲàmà 'meat; animal'

> (b)inatang@Malay: animal
> (b)intang@Malay: star
> intan@Malay: spark.le (life-ember?)

'diamond'
> (b)inti@Malay: daughter
from Arabic
> (b)ini@Malay: wife
PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'
>
> (b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?
Back to word-squashing, is it? So what language would this
be a word of? The same one as *xyuam(bua)tla and variations
thereof? And why no asterisk? How about 'diamond dog [or bitch]
breath' as a gloss?

[Daud Deden]

15ka Magdalenian dogs

A new look at an old dog:
Bonn-Oberkassel reconsidered
Luc Janssens 2018
J.archaeol.Sci.online 3.2.18
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jas.2018.01.004
<https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jas.2018.01.004Get>

€The dog was 7 months old when it died, and was buried with 2 humans.
€The dog had been perniciously ill when 19 weeks old, caused by distemper.
€Grave goods included a molar from another, 2nd dog.

The B-O dog remains (Upper Pleistocene, 14223 +-58 yrs old) have been
reported >100 yrs ago.
Recent re-examination revealed the tooth of another older & smaller dog,
making this domestic dog burial
- the oldest known,
- the only one with remains of 2 dogs.
This observation brings the total known Magdalenian dogs to 9.

Domestication of dogs during the final Palaeolithic has important
implications for understanding pre-Holocene hunter-gatherers.
Most proposed H-G motivations for domesticating dogs have been
utilitarian,
but remains of the Bonn-Oberkassel dogs may offer another view.

The B-O dog was a late juvenile when it was buried at +-age 27­28 weeks,
with 2 adult humans & grave goods.
Oral cavity lesions indicate a gravely ill dog, that likely suffered a
morbillivirus infection (canine distemper).
A dental line of suggestive enamel hypoplasia appears at the 19-week
developmental stage.
2 additional enamel hypoplasia lines, on the canine only, document further
disease episodes at weeks 21 & 23.
Pathological changes also include severe periodontal disease, that may
have been facilitated by immuno-deficiency.

Canine distemper has a 3-week disease course with very high mortality:
the dog must have been perniciously ill during the 3 disease bouts &
between ages 19 & 23 weeks.
Survival without intensive human assistance would have been unlikely.
Before & during this period, the dog cannot have held any utilitarian use
to humans.

We suggest that at least some Late Pleistocene humans regarded dogs not
just materialistically, but may have developed emotional & caring bonds
for their dogs, as reflected by the survival of this dog, quite possibly
through human care.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 3:58:21 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:

> The B-O dog remains (Upper Pleistocene, 14223 +-58 yrs old)

specious precision

[DKleinecke]

Depends on how one reads it. I would read it as saying
there is a 67% chance of being between 14165 and 14281
years old. 67% because I assume the increment is one
sigma. Maybe they use more sophisticated statistics. I
think it would be fair to say "about 14200 years old".

Personally I suspect the error is being radically
underestimated - but I don't have any real knowledge.

[Daud Deden]

This is a rapid response post, I later wrote a better one which was lost, so here, rant included and missing a few points. DD

, February 10, 2018 at 11:34:25 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
> > Ashakish@Pawnee, Ricaree: dog
> -
>
> Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

Perro@Span: dog ~ ember-bear(verb) ~
Pariah/ari@India: dog (ferry/arigolu)

> atimw@Cree: animal that pulls, dog

just "dog" (I ..

I'll stick with the That Monigyah Linguist's impression, he wrote a good blogpost on it, he didn't just 'click the dict.'. Recall he linked lion as misatim. In Sumerian, a bitch or lioness = nig.

> anima(te/l)
PIE *anə- 'breathe'
> immal@Sumerian: wild cow (general ungulate?)
> nyama@Mbuti: animal
Proto-Bantu *ǹɲàmà 'meat; animal'

Nyama@Mbuti: anima(l/te)
Njama@PBantu: meat, animal
Njama@Mbuti: thicket
Jambo@Swahili: meet
Meet/meat/meal/eat/gate/grate/grill/mill/mesh-mat.rix-menstru/in-heat/greet/mate/make(baby-domi.cile)/pemm.ican/jam/jamb
All from ndjambua (part of ndjuambuangualua, an earlier rainforest form of OOA2 xyambuatlachya)

> (b)inatang@Malay: animal
> (b)intang@Malay: star
> intan@Malay: spark.le (life-ember?)
'diamond'

True in modern sense, but older sense included any sparkling/reflecting material. api fire, ambhi/bi.ntang/intan
[I'm thinking that 'ambi.dextrous' originally referred to the back & forth spinning of a fire-drill, only later meaning specifically 'either-both hand' and extra.pol.ated, as in amphi.bian: both land & water.]
> (b)inti@Malay: daughter
from Arabic
A not uncommon name for men in eastern ('pagan'/Christian)Indonesia.

> (b)ini@Malay: wife
PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'

Not girl/daughter, thus implies fer.tilized/s.peck.led/spar.kled/e{ncu}mbered/embarazado@Span.: pregnant

>
> (b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?
Back to word-squashing, is it? So what language would this
be a word of?

Names & numbers are a Neo-etymogist's obsession, both have less importance in Paleo-etymology. Linnaeus started a real taxonomic conundrum by claiming permanent labels for temporary-phases of flora & fauna, which are constantly gradually undergoing transformation due to mutation & natural selection, just like language. Why don't you label it "squash", if that comforts you? I don't share your discomfort with unlabeled/noncategorised words, since I consider them less as discrete 'things' than as concepts coded in (climate-affected thus somewhat arbitrary) sound arrangements, always changing (but basal words changing slower). Languages are nationalistic things today, but long long ago they were c.amp(hi) things. If you are a permanent cubicle-dweller and haven't done any Primitive camping around a campfire, this will appear to be an alien concept, I can't fix that, ignorance is bliss/belief. If you are in a box/cage studying people/fauna who do/did not live in a box/cage, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, but nobody will tell you, because ALL YOUR PEERS are also in boxes/cages. THAT is why I'm doing this, and that is why my work is important, despite my many flaws in rendering Paleo-etymology coherently to modern hyper-domesticated AMHsapiens, like the typical non-field-tested Neo-etymogist's & their wannabes.
[Note: I do not want to write this again, refer back to it when necessary. DD]

same one as *xyuam(bua)tla and variations
thereof? And why no asterisk?

Asterisk/star/stella denotes conjecture. ALL is conjecture in Paleo-etymology, which is why 1. experience of non-domesticated nature, 2. study of primate-anthropoid-hominoid-hominin biology, 3. application of principles of Parsimony & Continuity, and 4. comprehension of the significance of portable broadleaf-shingled domiciles & sharpened sticks allowed and selected for vocal communication; are all significant in determining what produced this communication method we call language. Of course, you don't have to believe that, you can righteously claim it was an emperor or god that gave us language, as some have done.

How about 'diamond dog [or bitch]
breath' as a gloss?

Not a bad deduction, in the elemental sense. Star/spark.le/(s)apha.y.re/(r)espir(itu)

Extraneous: I don't speak Korean, but I admire their reduction of characters to around ~ 30 oral-pictures. So much better than 50k picture-characters despite the losses. If Japanese was only katakana-based, I'd be fluent, but their priests-scribes maximized rather than optimized their scriptural code, like the ancient Egyptians, making it terribly inefficient to learn quickly. Thank God for Phoenician/phonetics.

DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:

I don't understand your "rant," as you put it, about writing.

> Extraneous: I don't speak Korean, but I admire their reduction of characters to around ~ 30 oral-pictures.

What does that mean?

> So much better than 50k picture-characters

What does that mean?

> despite the losses.

What does that mean?

> If Japanese was only katakana-based,

You mean hiragana.

> I'd be fluent,

What does writing have to do with fluency?

> but their priests-scribes maximized rather than optimized their scriptural code,

What does that mean?

> like the ancient Egyptians,

What does that mean?

> making it terribly inefficient to learn quickly. Thank God for Phoenician/phonetics.

What does that mean?

Now I have an idea of how Ross feels when you trample roughshod on Austronesian languages.

[DKleinecke]

Looks to me like he will never get to South America so I
am beginning to feel safe. His little excursion into Pirahã
was too generic to call an interest in South America.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 12:48:31 PM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> This is a rapid response post, I later wrote a better one which was lost, so here, rant included and missing a few points. DD
>
> , February 10, 2018 at 11:34:25 AM UTC+13, Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
> > > Ashakish@Pawnee, Ricaree: dog
> > -
> >
> > Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)
>
> Perro@Span: dog ~ ember-bear(verb) ~
> Pariah/ari@India: dog (ferry/arigolu)
>
> > atimw@Cree: animal that pulls, dog
> just "dog" (I ..
>
> I'll stick with the That Monigyah Linguist's impression, he wrote a good blogpost on it, he didn't just 'click the dict.'.

So you feel "writing a good blogpost" produces superior results to
merely looking in a dictionary? What is the source of his knowledge
of Cree?

Recall he linked lion as misatim. In Sumerian, a bitch or lioness = nig.
>
> > anima(te/l)
> PIE *anə- 'breathe'
> > immal@Sumerian: wild cow (general ungulate?)
> > nyama@Mbuti: animal
> Proto-Bantu *ǹɲàmà 'meat; animal'
>
> Nyama@Mbuti: anima(l/te)
> Njama@PBantu: meat, animal
> Njama@Mbuti: thicket
> Jambo@Swahili: meet
> Meet/meat/meal/eat/gate/grate/grill/mill/mesh-mat.rix-menstru/in-heat/greet/mate/make(baby-domi.cile)/pemm.ican/jam/jamb
> All from ndjambua (part of ndjuambuangualua, an earlier rainforest form of OOA2 xyambuatlachya)
>
> > (b)inatang@Malay: animal
> > (b)intang@Malay: star
> > intan@Malay: spark.le (life-ember?)
> 'diamond'
>
> True in modern sense, but older sense included any sparkling/reflecting material.

And you know this how?

api fire, ambhi/bi.ntang/intan
> [I'm thinking that 'ambi.dextrous' originally referred to the back & forth spinning of a fire-drill, only later meaning specifically 'either-both hand' and extra.pol.ated, as in amphi.bian: both land & water.]
> > (b)inti@Malay: daughter
> from Arabic
> A not uncommon name for men in eastern ('pagan'/Christian)Indonesia.

Men are called "daughter"? How unusual.
Or perhaps you mean just that there is a not uncommon name for men in
eastern Indonesia which is "binti" or "inti" or something sounding
a bit like one or the other?

> > (b)ini@Malay: wife
> PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'
> Not girl/daughter, thus implies fer.tilized/s.peck.led/spar.kled/e{ncu}mbered/embarazado@Span.: pregnant
> >
> > (b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?
> Back to word-squashing, is it? So what language would this
> be a word of?
>
> Names & numbers are a Neo-etymogist's obsession, both have less importance in Paleo-etymology.

Yes, it's clear everything is a lot more ... fluid ... in paleo-etymology.
But surely you have some idea of when and where this language was spoken?
You've cited so many of these polysyllabic squishes, I've often wondered
whether you have a list of them somewhere. Just up there, where I see
"OOA2 xyambuatlachya", it almost looks as if you've got them numbered or
catalogued or something.

Linnaeus started a real taxonomic conundrum by claiming permanent labels for temporary-phases of flora & fauna, which are constantly gradually undergoing transformation due to mutation & natural selection, just like language. Why don't you label it "squash", if that comforts you?

It doesn't comfort me any more than using any other word. I use "squash"
because they seem to have been constructed by fusing the various sounds
of a group of words you feel must have a common source. If there is
some other process which led you to these polysyllables, you have not
so far managed (or wanted) to explain it.

I don't share your discomfort with unlabeled/noncategorised words, since I consider them less as discrete 'things' than as concepts coded in (climate-affected thus somewhat arbitrary) sound arrangements, always changing (but basal words changing slower). Languages are nationalistic things today, but long long ago they were c.amp(hi) things. If you are a permanent cubicle-dweller and haven't done any Primitive camping around a campfire, this will appear to be an alien concept, I can't fix that, ignorance is bliss/belief. If you are in a box/cage studying people/fauna who do/did not live in a box/cage, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, but nobody will tell you, because ALL YOUR PEERS are also in boxes/cages. THAT is why I'm doing this, and that is why my work is important, despite my many flaws in rendering Paleo-etymology coherently to modern hyper-domesticated AMHsapiens, like the typical non-field-tested Neo-etymogist's & their wannabes.

I realize the condescension is essential to your portrayal of yourself
as a pioneer in a completely alternative system. But most of the things you
project onto me are untrue, though you have no way of knowing it.

> [Note: I do not want to write this again, refer back to it when necessary. DD]

Why would I want to?

> same one as *xyuam(bua)tla and variations
> thereof? And why no asterisk?
>
> Asterisk/star/stella denotes conjecture. ALL is conjecture in Paleo-etymology, which is why 1. experience of non-domesticated nature, 2. study of primate-anthropoid-hominoid-hominin biology, 3. application of principles of Parsimony & Continuity, and 4. comprehension of the significance of portable broadleaf-shingled domiciles & sharpened sticks allowed and selected for vocal communication; are all significant in determining what produced this communication method we call language. Of course, you don't have to believe that, you can righteously claim it was an emperor or god that gave us language, as some have done.

No, I don't plan to do that, either.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 1:48:31 AM UTC+2, Daud Deden wrote:
> If you are a permanent cubicle-dweller and haven't done any Primitive camping around a campfire, this will appear to be an alien concept

Being myself a half-primitive, I'd like to warn you that you writings may already be in breach of several of our tribal taboos. I might feel obliged to raise the kuolonkärki against you and follow slavishly the call of my totem god, Kiveksenviipaloija, the Testicle-Slasher.

[Daud Deden]

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
> This is a rapid response post, I later wrote a better one which was lost, so here, rant included and missing a few points. DD

-

Forgive me for not responding to responses to the "rant" (1st) post at this time, I need to recall what my 2nd post (which failed to post due to railroad wifi difficulties) included, I don't want to get distracted quite yet.


Some possible cognates between Basque and West Chadic words, incl. dog 47
[by Chris Davies at Maju's blog]

[DD: Note: compare star 149 & old 184, cf ~starosta@Russ & wazee@Swahili: elder]

149."Star"- Basque: 'izar'/ Guruntum [West Chadic]: 'saar'; Boot [West Chadic]:' ŝaàr'
23. "Two" - Basque: 'bi' ; Hausa [West Chadic]: 'biyu' ; Gwandara [West Chadic]: 'bi'
55. “Seed” – Basque: ‘hazi’ / “Grain” - Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘hatsi’
68. “Horn” – Basque: ‘adar’ / Glavda [Central Chadic]: ‘derawa’

47. “Dog” – Basque: ‘txakur’ [also similar in Sardinian etc.] / Toubou languages [Saharan]: ‘zeger’ ; Proto-West Chadic: *kyara- [eg. Hausa: ‘kare’, etc. etc.]; Proto-Central Chadic: *kur-/*kir-r’ [various examples] ;
81. “Leg” – Basque: ‘hanka’ / Miya [West Chadic]: ‘angar’
1. “I” – Basque: ‘ni’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘ni’

61. “Rope” – Basque: ‘soka’ [related to word for “snake”? ie. rope resembles a snake?] ; Koyraboro Senni, Songhai [Saharan]: ‘sugÉ›y’
156. “Stone” – Basque: ‘harri’ / Musgu [Central Chadic]: ‘kurii’
40. “Wife” – Basque: ‘emazte’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘matar’
184. “Old” – Basque: ‘zahar’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘tsoho’

159. “Earth” – Basque: ‘lur’ / Buduma/Yedina [Central Chadic]: ‘lo’
169. “(To) Burn” – Basque: ‘erre’ / Dangla [East Chadic]: ‘ere’

-
cf: MW: STAROSTIN. From "starosta", a word that means "village elder" or related things in several Slavic language. Star- means "old" in Slavic"

No link between starosta and zarathustra/zoroaster?
Star@Slav: old, aged
Tua@Malay: old, aged
*Xyua, stat/s(t)ag.e.d/stack/etage/storey, stepped
---
---------------------------------------------------

[Daud Deden]

DK: Maybe they use more sophisticated statistics. I

think it would be fair to say "about 14200 years old".

Personally I suspect the error is being radically
underestimated - but I don't have any real knowledge.

---
The claim refers to that site, dogs may have domesticated elsewhere long previously, but none show proof of "cared-for pet" rather than simple association with human camps.

[DKleinecke]

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 2:22:54 PM UTC-8, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
> > This is a rapid response post, I later wrote a better one which was lost, so here, rant included and missing a few points. DD
> -
>
> Forgive me for not responding to responses to the "rant" (1st) post at this time, I need to recall what my 2nd post (which failed to post due to railroad wifi difficulties) included, I don't want to get distracted quite yet.
>
>
> Some possible cognates between Basque and West Chadic words, incl. dog 47
> [by Chris Davies at Maju's blog]
>
> [DD: Note: compare star 149 & old 184, cf ~starosta@Russ & wazee@Swahili: elder]
>
> 149."Star"- Basque: 'izar'/ Guruntum [West Chadic]: 'saar'; Boot [West Chadic]:' ŝaàr'
> 23. "Two" - Basque: 'bi' ; Hausa [West Chadic]: 'biyu' ; Gwandara [West Chadic]: 'bi'
> 55. “Seed” – Basque: ‘hazi’ / “Grain” - Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘hatsi’
> 68. “Horn” – Basque: ‘adar’ / Glavda [Central Chadic]: ‘derawa’
>
> 47. “Dog” – Basque: ‘txakur’ [also similar in Sardinian etc.] / Toubou languages [Saharan]: ‘zeger’ ; Proto-West Chadic: *kyara- [eg. Hausa: ‘kare’, etc. etc.]; Proto-Central Chadic: *kur-/*kir-r’ [various examples] ;
> 81. “Leg” – Basque: ‘hanka’ / Miya [West Chadic]: ‘angar’
> 1. “I” – Basque: ‘ni’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘ni’
>
> 61. “Rope” – Basque: ‘soka’ [related to word for “snake”? ie. rope resembles a snake?] ; Koyraboro Senni, Songhai [Saharan]: ‘sugÉ›y’
> 156. “Stone” – Basque: ‘harri’ / Musgu [Central Chadic]: ‘kurii’
> 40. “Wife” – Basque: ‘emazte’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘matar’
> 184. “Old” – Basque: ‘zahar’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘tsoho’
>
> 159. “Earth” – Basque: ‘lur’ / Buduma/Yedina [Central Chadic]: ‘lo’
> 169. “(To) Burn” – Basque: ‘erre’ / Dangla [East Chadic]: ‘ere’
>

I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.

They don't seem to have convinced anyone much.

I just googled "Basque Afro-Asiatic" and got some hits.
Hence the connection has been suggested but is not generally
accepted.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 6:28:49 PM UTC-5, DKleinecke wrote:

> I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
> Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.

By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."

Phil Baldi wrote an extensive refutation of his book. I wonder whether it was
ever published -- whenever I asked, it was always forthcoming (he sent page
proofs, they probably perished two or three computers ago).

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 3:30:57 PM UTC+13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 6:28:49 PM UTC-5, DKleinecke wrote:
>
> > I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
> > Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.
>
> By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."
>
> Phil Baldi wrote an extensive refutation of his book. I wonder whether it was
> ever published -- whenever I asked, it was always forthcoming (he sent page
> proofs, they probably perished two or three computers ago).

Says here:

Vennemann's book Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica (2003) was reviewed
in Lingua by linguists Philip Baldi and B. Richard Page, who made reasoned dismissals of a number of his proposals. The reviewers still applauded Vennemann's "efforts to reassess the role and extent of language contact
in the development of Indo-European languages in Europe".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Vennemann

I thought of Vennemann too, though it's not exactly what DD has in mind.
V is arguing for a Basque substratum over a far larger part of Europe than
the present range, and also for a pervasive AA influence on Western Europe,
except it's Semitic rather than Chadic that interests him. I don't think he
actually claims Basque is AA. Still, it wouldn't hurt DD to read him, to
get some acquaintance with a higher level of scholarship, and perhaps
realize that these exciting new ideas on the internet are not so original...

[Marc Schütz]

Am Wed, 21 Feb 2018 18:30:54 -0800 (PST)
schrieb "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net>:

> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 6:28:49 PM UTC-5, DKleinecke wrote:
>
> > I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
> > Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.
>
> By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."
>

This is wrong. His claim is that an ancestor of _Basque_ ("Vasconic") is
the main substrate language, and that in addition there is an unrelated
AA substrate ("Atlantic") found along the atlantic coasts.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 10:12:05 PM UTC-5, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 3:30:57 PM UTC+13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 6:28:49 PM UTC-5, DKleinecke wrote:

> > > I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
> > > Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.
> >
> > By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."
> >
> > Phil Baldi wrote an extensive refutation of his book. I wonder whether it was
> > ever published -- whenever I asked, it was always forthcoming (he sent page
> > proofs, they probably perished two or three computers ago).
>
> Says here:
>
> Vennemann's book Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica (2003) was reviewed
> in Lingua by linguists Philip Baldi and B. Richard Page, who made reasoned dismissals of a number of his proposals. The reviewers still applauded Vennemann's "efforts to reassess the role and extent of language contact
> in the development of Indo-European languages in Europe".

Ah. When I was looking for articles on English orthography, I found that *Lingua* typically
had a publication delay of five years or more. Articles dated 1970 said things like "work
by Chomsky and Halle that is circulating in manuscript ..." (SPE, of course, was
published in 1968). Apparently nothing had changed 30 or 40 years later.

[Daud Deden]

I made no claim. There are some plausible cognates.

The sound "gai" for height is common, xy/sky/zi/thi, gunung@Malay & gara@Tigrinha: mountain.

Chaddic people & Sardinians share the V188 Gene, also prevalent in the Bug-Dniester people ("eDeN" of pre-deluge?) cattle-raisers, but I'm not sure about Basques.

[Arnaud Fournet]

The review in Lingua is available on Scribd and I read it.
It can be noted that Vennemann's theory contradicts itself.
For example, the word "sleep" is rather odd as it presupposes something like *sleHb- with the rare phoneme *b.
Vennemann made the interesting observation that many strong verbs like *sleHb- have *b either initially or medially, resulting in p in Germanic languages, a notoriously odd phoneme, often associated with non-IE origin.
According to Vennemann, the development of strong verbs like *sleHb- (into a particular class of strong verbs) would be the consequence of a so-called Semitidic superstratic influence.
Now, the obvious thing is that *s-leh-b "to sleep" shares something with Basque lo "to sleep". So, I think you can't have cheese and dessert at the same time.
Personally, I would be ready to buy the idea that Paleo-European substrates are quite probably related to Basque.
The Semitidic thing strikes as rather nonsensical.
A.