Nasal vowels

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Ruud Harmsen

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Apr 30, 2021, 1:38:12 PMApr 30
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An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Dingbat

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May 30, 2021, 5:24:27 AMMay 30
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On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> --

Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?

timbre
entente
lignes

Peter T. Daniels

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May 30, 2021, 9:14:02 AMMay 30
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Either you know the language or you know the spelling.

There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
There is no nasal vowel in lignes.

Ruud Harmsen

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May 30, 2021, 10:42:35 AMMay 30
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Sun, 30 May 2021 02:24:26 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>> --
>
>Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal

Of course, why not? Depends on whether you keep the nasal cavity close
during the vowel, and open it abruptly while closing the oral passage
for the consonant (a fast switchover), or you keep the nasal cavity
open in addition to the oral one, already during the vowel.

>and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>
>timbre
>entente
>lignes

Depends on the language, and the context. Nasal in standard French
(e.g. in Caen, but not in Cannes), non-nasal in southern French. In
Portuguese too, both situations occur, depending on word structure.

The words mentioned are [tE~bR], [A~tA~t], et [liJ]. (If J is the
symbol in some Ascii-isation for a palatal nasal consonant.)

Christian Weisgerber

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May 30, 2021, 11:30:08 AMMay 30
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On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>
> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?

At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels
appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but
on second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography
indicates nasal vowels?

The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m indicates a nasal vowel,
unless another vowel letter follows.

The French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more
context than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,
you need to take more surrounding letters into account.

Much like English orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation
of Middle English, French orthography is based on the pronunciation
of Old French, with centuries of sound changes layered on top.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

Arnaud Fournet

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May 31, 2021, 1:54:06 AMMay 31
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The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many, graphic renditions.
The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute letters.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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May 31, 2021, 3:47:20 AMMay 31
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On 2021-05-31 05:54:04 +0000, Arnaud Fournet said:

> Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
>> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> An
>> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
>>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
>>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
>> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
>> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
>> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
>> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
>> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
>> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
>> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
>> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
>> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
>> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.

In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

> The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many,
> graphic renditions.
> The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute
> letters.


--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years

wugi

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May 31, 2021, 5:22:18 AMMay 31
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Op 31/05/2021 om 9:47 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite
>> straightforward.
>
> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.


And stagner and bagne, immanquable and immuable, ville and fille, fils
and fils; un accueil pareil dans l'abbaye des abeilles...

Ok, still less crazy than English, admittedly.


--

guido wugi

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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May 31, 2021, 5:54:47 AMMay 31
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Yes. No escaping that.

Arnaud Fournet

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May 31, 2021, 6:52:29 AMMay 31
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Le lundi 31 mai 2021 à 09:47:20 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2021-05-31 05:54:04 +0000, Arnaud Fournet said:
>
> > Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
> >> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> An
> >> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
> >> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
> >>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
> >>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> >> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
> >> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
> >> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
> >> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
> >> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
> >> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
> >> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
> >> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
> >> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
> >> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
> >> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
> > The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

I have no issue with poêle = [poel]...
but I agree this might not be standard.

Peter T. Daniels

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May 31, 2021, 10:08:54 AMMay 31
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On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:22:18 AM UTC-4, wugi wrote:
> Op 31/05/2021 om 9:47 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:

NO, HE DID NOT.

> >> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite
> >> straightforward.
> > In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

> And stagner and bagne, immanquable and immuable, ville and fille, fils
> and fils; un accueil pareil dans l'abbaye des abeilles...
>
> Ok, still less crazy than English, admittedly.

The "dictée" is more dreaded in French schools than the "spelling test"
in English schools, because despite what AF implied above, the French
mapping from pronunciation to spelling is very far from straightforward.

Pierre Jelenc

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May 31, 2021, 11:27:34 AMMay 31
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In article <72aa357f-575b-4fe6...@googlegroups.com>,
But that's a regional pronunciation; [pwal] is standard. (Or [pwa:l] in
Québec.)

Pierre

--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

Ruud Harmsen

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May 31, 2021, 11:30:52 AMMay 31
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Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.

I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation

>
>> The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many,
>> graphic renditions.
>> The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute
>> letters.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

wugi

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May 31, 2021, 3:42:46 PMMay 31
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Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation


Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)


--

guido wugi

António Marques

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May 31, 2021, 4:18:13 PMMay 31
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Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
fanciful). The others are a matter of conflicting spelling subsystems.

Christian Weisgerber

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May 31, 2021, 5:30:06 PMMay 31
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On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:

>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>
> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
> fanciful).

According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.

TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
are remnants.

"Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
pronunciation /wɛ/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
shift /wɛ/ > /wa/.

António Marques

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May 31, 2021, 8:20:23 PMMay 31
to
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>
>> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
>> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
>> fanciful).
>
> According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
>
> TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
> pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
> that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
> before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
> are remnants.

Cf Montaigne.


> "Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
> pronunciation /wɛ/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
> shift /wɛ/ > /wa/.

So it turns out that neither is a dialectal variety.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 1, 2021, 1:08:53 AMJun 1
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Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
languages, in this case French. Because the English version of
Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
always consult that one first.

My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
"From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.

António Marques

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Jun 1, 2021, 2:47:40 AMJun 1
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Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>
>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>
>>
>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>
> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
> languages, in this case French.

I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
'onion'.

Dingbat

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Jun 1, 2021, 3:57:47 AMJun 1
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On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:20:23 PM UTC-7, António Marques wrote:
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> > On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> >
> >>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> >>
> >> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
> >> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
> >> fanciful).
> >
> > According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> > 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
> >
> > TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
> > pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
> > that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
> > before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
> > are remnants.

I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
it would have spelled it as <ignon>.

wugi

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Jun 1, 2021, 6:06:26 AMJun 1
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Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>
>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>> languages, in this case French.
> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
> 'onion'.


You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):

I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.


--

guido wugi

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jun 1, 2021, 7:57:18 AMJun 1
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On 2021-06-01 10:06:18 +0000, wugi said:

> Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>
>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>> languages, in this case French.
>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>> 'onion'.
>
>
> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):

Certainly not le Flamant, anyway. The English version of an explanatory
notice at the Parc Ornithologique du Pont de Gau says that the Flemings
come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't say where the Walloons do
their breeding.
>
> I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
> the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.


--

wugi

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Jun 1, 2021, 11:03:00 AMJun 1
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Op 1/06/2021 om 13:57 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> On 2021-06-01 10:06:18 +0000, wugi said:
>
>> Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>>
>>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>>> languages, in this case French.
>>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write
>>> their word
>>> 'onion'.
>>
>>
>> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
>
> Certainly not le Flamant, anyway. The English version of an
> explanatory notice at the Parc Ornithologique du Pont de Gau says that
> the Flemings come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't say where the
> Walloons do their breeding.


Do they at all? ;)

We have a lot of such mistaken translations, some funny, others merely
wrong.

A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
pierre.

In a (beautiful) "cité jardin", all streets of a ward were given bird
names. One of them is Rue du Troglodyte (Wren street). Facing the
nuisance of bilingualizing into Dutch (not sure if it was by an
unknowing Fleming or a dictionarising Frenchspeaker) it was translated
to "Holbewonerstraat" (Cave dweller street), after the obvious but
unfitting first meaning of troglodyte.


--

guido wugi

António Marques

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Jun 1, 2021, 12:23:17 PMJun 1
to
In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
those were converted into 'da raíña'*.

(*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
-nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one - according to our
phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
_faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
portuguese, as befits their own phonology.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 1, 2021, 2:54:53 PMJun 1
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Tue, 1 Jun 2021 00:57:46 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:20:23 PM UTC-7, António Marques wrote:
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>> > On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>> >>
>> >> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
>> >> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
>> >> fanciful).
>> >
>> > According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
>> > 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
>> >
>> > TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
>> > pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
>> > that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /?/,
>> > before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
>> > are remnants.
>
>I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> it would have spelled it as <ignon>.

The point is it hadn't, and couldn't have had.

Phonotactics is king.

>> Cf Montaigne.
>> > "Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
>> > pronunciation /w?/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
>> > shift /w?/ > /wa/.
>> So it turns out that neither is a dialectal variety.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 1, 2021, 2:56:08 PMJun 1
to
Tue, 1 Jun 2021 06:47:38 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>
>>>
>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>
>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>> languages, in this case French.
>
>I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>'onion'.

Could be and then Guido's right.

>> Because the English version of
>> Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
>> includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
>> always consult that one first.
>>
>> My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
>> too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
>> French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
>> "From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
>> union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"
>>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
>> So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.
>>
>
>

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 1, 2021, 2:57:38 PMJun 1
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Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:06:18 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
True. I did, but tried to hide it. Le Portugais comprehendera.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 1, 2021, 3:09:17 PMJun 1
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Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:02:52 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:

>A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
>Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
>building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
>the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
>merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
>as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
>pierre.

The same Steen, no doubt, which appears as Stein in the name of my now
home town (since 2016), IJsselstein, after the Castle, the only
building made of stone, around which the small town grew. The stone
castle along the river IJssel. Only one tower still stands, the rest
has recently been renovated as a town park, which indications of where
the old walls were, and there is a statue of a coragious, but
physically small woman:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_van_Heukelom
under whose supervision the castle and city were defended against the
ever evil bisschop of Utrecht, a mere 15 km along. Wars were local
then, and safety a luxury. Count your blessings. We can now go there
by bicycle and noone does us any harm.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 1, 2021, 3:55:21 PMJun 1
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Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:23:14 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
>was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
>those were converted into 'da raíña'*.
>
>(*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
>-nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one -

Yes. I clearly remember having learnt that from you. And here.

>according to our
>phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
>in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
>_faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
>simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
>portuguese, as befits their own phonology.

Befits, yes. Nice word. Difficult to translate, into some languages.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 1, 2021, 3:56:24 PMJun 1
to
Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:09:12 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:02:52 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>
>>A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
>>Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
>>building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
>>the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
>>merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
>>as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
>>pierre.
>
>The same Steen, no doubt, which appears as Stein in the name of my now
>home town (since 2016), IJsselstein, after the Castle, the only
>building made of stone, around which the small town grew. The stone
>castle along the river IJssel. Only one tower still stands, the rest
>has recently been renovated as a town park, which

with

wugi

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Jun 1, 2021, 4:02:21 PMJun 1
to
Op 1/06/2021 om 9:57 schreef Dingbat:

> I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> it would have spelled it as <ignon>.

https://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/gnon
So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!
Didn't know it was a shortened oignon. Neither about the supposed -ign-
graphy.

--
guido wugi

Dingbat

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Jun 1, 2021, 6:37:07 PMJun 1
to
English has not only a Latin derived word onion but also a word ramps from OE hramsa cognate with Greek kromion.
https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/on-the-etymology-of-the-word-ramps

English chive and French cive come from the same source
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chive#English

Arnaud Fournet

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Jun 2, 2021, 12:56:09 AMJun 2
to
Le mardi 1 juin 2021 à 22:02:21 UTC+2, wugi a écrit :
> Op 1/06/2021 om 9:57 schreef Dingbat:
> > I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> > it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
> https://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/gnon
> So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!

yes, quite funny, with Southern spelling nh = ign
LOL

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jun 2, 2021, 5:22:52 AMJun 2
to
On 2021-06-01 19:55:18 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:

> Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:23:14 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>> In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
>> was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
>> those were converted into 'da raíña'*.

You've sent me off on a tangent with this comment. There is a prominent
Chilean family called Larraín, and an up-market comuna of Santiago
called La Reina (where the late unlamented Erich Honecker spent his
declining years). I had sometimes wondered if the slight similarity of
names had any significance, but apparently not: La Reina means what it
looks as if it means, and Larraín is of Basque rather than Galician
origin.
>>
>> (*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
>> -nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one -
>
> Yes. I clearly remember having learnt that from you. And here.
>
>> according to our
>> phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
>> in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
>> _faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
>> simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
>> portuguese, as befits their own phonology.
>
> Befits, yes. Nice word. Difficult to translate, into some languages.


--

Dingbat

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Jun 2, 2021, 6:01:18 AMJun 2
to
On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > > --
> > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> >
> > timbre
> > entente
> > lignes
> Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>
> There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> There is no nasal vowel in lignes.

Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU

Peter T. Daniels

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Jun 2, 2021, 8:35:06 AMJun 2
to
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:01:18 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> > > timbre
> > > entente
> > > lignes
> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
> >
> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>
> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU

Both. As expected in that environment.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 2, 2021, 8:52:28 AMJun 2
to
Wed, 2 Jun 2021 03:01:16 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
But that's American English, not French.

Some Americans nasalise ALL vowels, regardless. She probably does not.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 2, 2021, 8:57:36 AMJun 2
to
Wed, 2 Jun 2021 05:35:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
Also in British English, also in French? I don't think so.

List to "aim" in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHxTwHYg1WE . Fully
nasalised all over. Then compare https://nl.forvo.com/word/aim/ .
Clear difference.

Dingbat

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Jun 2, 2021, 11:23:13 PMJun 2
to
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvUDingbat:
> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU

PTD:
Both. As expected in that environment.

My only question in my 1st posting was:
In which contexts is this expected?
Why is it expected for only one of these words?

timbre
entente
lignes
macedoine

And is it expected only from some speakers?

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 3, 2021, 4:24:51 AMJun 3
to
Wed, 2 Jun 2021 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
Lots of things language have no why and wherefore. They are as the
are.

>timbre
>entente
>lignes
>macedoine

Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?

>And is it expected only from some speakers?

Dingbat

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Jun 3, 2021, 6:56:27 AMJun 3
to
French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?

António Marques

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Jun 3, 2021, 8:16:42 AMJun 3
to
The recently mentioned immanquable, along with thousands of others?

In breton you have a number of minimal pairs between Vn and (nasal V).

Arnaud Fournet

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Jun 3, 2021, 12:45:44 PMJun 3
to
ennui for example
enamouré is another instance, not reflected by spelling.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 3, 2021, 1:21:09 PMJun 3
to
Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
What is a nasal stop??

Arnaud Fournet

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Jun 3, 2021, 2:55:20 PMJun 3
to
/n/ /m/ for example.

wugi

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Jun 3, 2021, 4:49:23 PMJun 3
to
Op 3/06/2021 om 18:45 schreef Arnaud Fournet:
Nous vînmes?

--
guido wugi

wugi

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Jun 3, 2021, 5:02:02 PMJun 3
to
Op 3/06/2021 om 22:49 schreef wugi:
Immanquable et al. which I mentioned elsewhere; unpredictable whether
im-m... is going to be nasal or not (in most cases not).

But those are not with "ending stops", compare:

Dingbat

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Jun 4, 2021, 2:46:23 AMJun 4
to
On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 10:21:09 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >timbre
> >> >entente
> >> >lignes
> >> >macedoine
> >>
> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>
> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
> What is a nasal stop??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_consonant

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 4, 2021, 3:12:04 AMJun 4
to
Thu, 3 Jun 2021 11:55:19 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> scribeva:
I only knew 'stop' as a synonym for plosive, like t, d, p, k etc.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 4, 2021, 3:23:46 AMJun 4
to
Thu, 3 Jun 2021 23:46:21 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
So it is a term. I didn't know it, but now do. It is quite logical
too: the oral airflow is stopped.

Dingbat

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Jun 4, 2021, 4:07:29 AMJun 4
to
Thanks. Whether it is predictable was something I wanted to know.

I find this word enigmatic:
encastré
https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/

It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
The terminal vowel sounds like [I]!
(the ending vowel of ancestry)

mabel wugi

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Jun 4, 2021, 4:29:01 AMJun 4
to
Op 4/06/2021 om 10:07 schreef Dingbat:

>
> I find this word enigmatic:
> encastré
> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>
> It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.

Where should that 'stop' be?

> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!

Regular.

> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!

Rince your ears a bit.

> The terminal vowel sounds like [I]!

é ~ longish [I], [I] ~ shortish [e]

> (the ending vowel of ancestry)

Why, it's just standard French pronunciation. en-cas-tré.


--
guido wugi

mabel wugi

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Jun 4, 2021, 4:33:27 AMJun 4
to
Op 4/06/2021 om 10:28 schreef mabel wugi:
> Op 4/06/2021 om 10:07 schreef Dingbat:
>
>>
>> I find this word enigmatic:
>> encastré
>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>

>
>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>
> Regular.


Have a look at this doublet: châtrer - castrer
https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/châtrer/14931
https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/castrer/13677


--
guido wugi

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jun 4, 2021, 4:46:23 AMJun 4
to
On 2021-06-04 08:33:21 +0000, mabel wugi said:

> Op 4/06/2021 om 10:28 schreef mabel wugi:
>> Op 4/06/2021 om 10:07 schreef Dingbat:
>>
>>>
>>> I find this word enigmatic:
>>> encastré
>>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>>>
>
>>
>>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>>
>> Regular.
>
>
> Have a look at this doublet: châtrer - castrer
> https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/châtrer/14931
> https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/castrer/13677

Not to be confused with Castrais, which refers to someone from Castres.
We know someone from Castres, and when we first met him and we asked
him if he was from this region (Provence) he said "Non, je suis
Castrais". As intended, we understood Castrais as castré until he
explained.

António Marques

unread,
Jun 4, 2021, 5:55:29 AMJun 4
to
In the french I was taught, <ai> was just the same as <è>. I've since been
made aware that is often the same as <é>, but not the rules for that. This
looks like as good as time as any other to inquire about those.
What are the rules? Quelles sont-elles, les règles?

Tim Lang

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Jun 4, 2021, 7:18:15 AMJun 4
to
On 04.06.2021 10:07, Dingbat wrote:

>>Immanquable et al. which I mentioned elsewhere; unpredictable whether
>>im-m... is going to be nasal or not (in most cases not).
>
>Thanks. Whether it is predictable was something I wanted to know.

Here, the Fr. spelling -mm- helps you. OTOH, it'd be nasalized if the
Fr. spelling were ... "inmanqable", where the Latin prefix in- wouldn't
be transformed becoming en- (in the French & Hispanic style).

>I find this word enigmatic:

Why enigmatic? It's perfect "standard" => "easy" to read to any
foreigner /ɔ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - kas - tre:/.

>encastré
>https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
> >It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!

i.e., /k/ (as well as in the above mentioned ... manquable)
(BTW: Italian incastrare; participle incastrato; noun incastro)

>The <a> is pronounced as <E>!

?!

>The terminal vowel sounds like [I]!
>(the ending vowel of ancestry)

?! To me it sounds /e:::::::::::::::::::::::::::/. Like
an American English /e/, e.g. in "bed", yet very ... long.
No /i/ or /I/ in it whatsoever. It's an Anglosaxon,
esp. American, habit to make of virtually all -e endings
in foreign words /i(:)/ and /eɪ, ɛɪ/. (Spies, take care of
your tongue training. :-))

In East-Austrian & Vienna-German it could be spelled ... "aunkaßtreh"
and "aungaßtreh" (yet preserving the French pronunciation).
"Aun-" is an unofficial, yet popular spelling, preferred by many
in the Vienna region for almost the same /ɔ~/-nasal. In South-East
Germany, for the same phenomenon (i.e. the regional pronunciation
variants of the German prefix an-) is rendered by an awkward
regional spelling, o-. Awkward, since it doesn't convey any hint
to a foreigner as to what pronunciation is to be expected in those
regional areas of the "lingo". The Austrian spelling counterpart,
aung-, isn't either a good one, but one showing a vivid ... imagination. :-)

But to be aware of what this is about, one should hear several
nativespeakers from Bavaria and Austria uttering this. And only
then also getting aware of the fact, wow,this thing reminds one
the French an-, am-, en-, em-, i.e. "enfant", "Entente" (although
the German prefix an- is etymologically and semantically not quite
related to em-, en-, am-, an- of the western areas of the Romance
world).

The real (i.e., existing!) differences to the French nasal an, am, en,
em, as well as to the Polish one, -ą-, are tiny; and not all
foreigners are able to perceive the differences. (The nasalisation
of aeiouöüɨʉɯ can be achieved by various native-speakers' mouths
in various languages in various ways, that would amaze French and
Poles, who might thing only their idioms have such nasals. :-)
To be precise: I mean all situation where the vowel isn't followed
by a real /n/ pronounced with any contact between the lingual apex
and the the teeth or the alveola or the palate or (as in some
German areas, incl. one former federal chancellor, Helmut Kohl)
the upper lip; be aware: a German minority of native speakers
pronounce /n/ with the tongue tip hitting the (outside) upper lip!
No German language school would teach you this in any
course whatsoever (perhaps in some rare "Germanistik" classes) ;-)))

Tim

Tim Lang

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Jun 4, 2021, 7:23:41 AMJun 4
to
On 04.06.2021 11:55, António Marques wrote:

>In the french I was taught, <ai> was just the same as <è>.

Me too.

>I've since been made aware that is often the same as <é>, but not the rules for that.

Yes, indeed.

>What are the rules? Quelles sont-elles, les règles?

Thank goodness that "elles sont" much more ... regular, i.e. not
as overwhelmed by ... whole lotta exceptions, as is the case in
the universe of English spellings (an utterly ... "libertarian"
world :-D).

Tim

Daud Deden

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Jun 4, 2021, 7:30:56 AMJun 4
to
Do not castrate a chaste rat...

mabel wugi

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Jun 4, 2021, 8:07:21 AMJun 4
to
Op 4/06/2021 om 13:18 schreef Tim Lang:
> On 04.06.2021 10:07, Dingbat wrote:
>
>>> Immanquable et al. which I mentioned elsewhere; unpredictable whether
>>> im-m... is going to be nasal or not (in most cases not).
>>
>> Thanks. Whether it is predictable was something I wanted to know.
>
> Here, the Fr. spelling -mm- helps you. OTOH, it'd be nasalized if the

No, it doesn't.

> Fr. spelling were ... "inmanqable", where the Latin prefix in- wouldn't

That would be the perfect spelling solution, but... too obvious:
l'inmanquable immeuble.

> be transformed becoming en- (in the French & Hispanic style).
>
>> I find this word enigmatic:
>
> Why enigmatic? It's perfect "standard" => "easy" to read to any
> foreigner /ɔ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - kas - tre:/.
>
>> encastré
>> https://forvo.com/word/encastr%C3%A9/
>> >It seems to start with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop.
>> The <c> is pronounced like in Italian!
>
> i.e., /k/ (as well as in the above mentioned ... manquable)
> (BTW: Italian incastrare; participle incastrato; noun incastro)
>
>> The <a> is pronounced as <E>!
>
> ?!
>
>> The terminal vowel sounds like [I]!
>> (the ending vowel of ancestry)
>
> ?! To me it sounds /e:::::::::::::::::::::::::::/. Like

But in the given sample it sounds just rather short, [I]ish.

> an American English /e/, e.g. in "bed", yet very ... long.
> No /i/ or /I/ in it whatsoever.

--
guido wugi

mabel wugi

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Jun 4, 2021, 8:08:28 AMJun 4
to
Op 4/06/2021 om 14:07 schreef mabel wugi:

>> Here, the Fr. spelling -mm- helps you. OTOH, it'd be nasalized if the
>
> No, it doesn't.

(I meant, spelling does not help)

--
guido wugi

mabel wugi

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Jun 4, 2021, 8:21:15 AMJun 4
to
Op 4/06/2021 om 11:55 schreef António Marques:
There aren't clear ones, and if there are, they're not universal. From
what there is, the distinction is better maintained in eg. Belgium
(except dialectical) than in 'mainstream' Île de France (which is also
in the stage of coinciding -in and -un).

-ai ~ é: parlai ~ parlé, parler, parlez etc.
-ais, -ait, -aient ~ è: mais ~ mets
-aise ~ è: (ma)laise ~ (mé)lèze.

But the increased confusion é,è shows up in spelling errors between
parlai and parlais, parlerai and parlerais (besides between homophonic
parlé, parler and parlez). Also in spelling confusion éléverai/élèverai;
accéderai/accèderai....

--
guido wugi

mabel wugi

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Jun 4, 2021, 8:26:02 AMJun 4
to
Op 4/06/2021 om 14:21 schreef mabel wugi:

> -ais, -ait, -aient ~ è: mais ~ mets

I meant short è like in très.

> -aise ~ è: (ma)laise ~ (mé)lèze.

I meant long è: like in Thérèse.

(Though vowel length is also fuzzy in French)

--
guido wugi

mabel wugi

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Jun 4, 2021, 8:33:25 AMJun 4
to
Op 4/06/2021 om 14:21 schreef mabel wugi:
> There aren't clear ones, and if there are, they're not universal. From
> what there is, the distinction is better maintained in eg. Belgium
> (except dialectical) than in 'mainstream' Île de France (which is also
> in the stage of coinciding -in and -un).
>
> -ai ~ é: parlai ~ parlé, parler, parlez etc.
> -ais, -ait, -aient ~ è: mais ~ mets
> -aise ~ è: (ma)laise ~ (mé)lèze.

Aime, -aire, -aine, aide, aigu, aile, glaive, laize...: all long è:

--
guido wugi

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 4, 2021, 11:54:33 AMJun 4