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Nasal vowels
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Ruud Harmsen
Apr 30, 2021, 1:38:12 PM4/30/21
to
An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
Dingbat
May 30, 2021, 5:24:27 AM5/30/21
to
On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> --
Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> --
timbre
entente
lignes
Peter T. Daniels
May 30, 2021, 9:14:02 AM5/30/21
to
There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
Ruud Harmsen
May 30, 2021, 10:42:35 AM5/30/21
to
Sun, 30 May 2021 02:24:26 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>> --
>
>Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal
Of course, why not? Depends on whether you keep the nasal cavity close
during the vowel, and open it abruptly while closing the oral passage
for the consonant (a fast switchover), or you keep the nasal cavity
open in addition to the oral one, already during the vowel.
>and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>
>timbre
>entente
>lignes
Depends on the language, and the context. Nasal in standard French
(e.g. in Caen, but not in Cannes), non-nasal in southern French. In
Portuguese too, both situations occur, depending on word structure.
The words mentioned are [tE~bR], [A~tA~t], et [liJ]. (If J is the
symbol in some Ascii-isation for a palatal nasal consonant.)
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>> --
>
>Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal
during the vowel, and open it abruptly while closing the oral passage
for the consonant (a fast switchover), or you keep the nasal cavity
open in addition to the oral one, already during the vowel.
>and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>
>timbre
>entente
>lignes
(e.g. in Caen, but not in Cannes), non-nasal in southern French. In
Portuguese too, both situations occur, depending on word structure.
The words mentioned are [tE~bR], [A~tA~t], et [liJ]. (If J is the
symbol in some Ascii-isation for a palatal nasal consonant.)
Christian Weisgerber
May 30, 2021, 11:30:08 AM5/30/21
to
On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>
>> An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
>
> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels
appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but
on second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography
indicates nasal vowels?
The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m indicates a nasal vowel,
unless another vowel letter follows.
The French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more
context than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,
you need to take more surrounding letters into account.
Much like English orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation
of Middle English, French orthography is based on the pronunciation
of Old French, with centuries of sound changes layered on top.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Arnaud Fournet
May 31, 2021, 1:54:06 AM5/31/21
to
The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many, graphic renditions.
The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute letters.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
May 31, 2021, 3:47:20 AM5/31/21
to
On 2021-05-31 05:54:04 +0000, Arnaud Fournet said:
> Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
> The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many,
> graphic renditions.
> The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute
> letters.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
> Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
>> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> An
>> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
>>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
>>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
>> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
>> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
>> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
>> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
>> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
>> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
>> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
>> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
>> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
>> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
>> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
>>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
>>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
>> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
>> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
>> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
>> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
>> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
>> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
>> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
>> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
>> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
>> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
>> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
> The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many,
> graphic renditions.
> The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute
> letters.
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
wugi
May 31, 2021, 5:22:18 AM5/31/21
to
Op 31/05/2021 om 9:47 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
and fils; un accueil pareil dans l'abbaye des abeilles...
Ok, still less crazy than English, admittedly.
--
guido wugi
>> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite
>> straightforward.
>
> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
And stagner and bagne, immanquable and immuable, ville and fille, fils
>> straightforward.
>
> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
and fils; un accueil pareil dans l'abbaye des abeilles...
Ok, still less crazy than English, admittedly.
--
guido wugi
Athel Cornish-Bowden
May 31, 2021, 5:54:47 AM5/31/21
to
Arnaud Fournet
May 31, 2021, 6:52:29 AM5/31/21
to
Le lundi 31 mai 2021 à 09:47:20 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2021-05-31 05:54:04 +0000, Arnaud Fournet said:
>
> > Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
> >> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> An
> >> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
> >> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
> >>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
> >>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> >> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
> >> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
> >> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
> >> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
> >> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
> >> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
> >> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
> >> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
> >> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
> >> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
> >> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
> > The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
I have no issue with poêle = [poel]...
> On 2021-05-31 05:54:04 +0000, Arnaud Fournet said:
>
> > Le dimanche 30 mai 2021 à 17:30:08 UTC+2, Christian Weisgerber a écrit :
> >> On 2021-05-30, Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:>> >> An
> >> articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:> >>
> >> https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm> >
> >>> Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and
> >>> if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> >> At first I took this for a phonological question--can nasal vowels>
> >> appear befor nasal consonants?--and was going to reply to that, but> on
> >> second thought I think you are simply asking how French orthography>
> >> indicates nasal vowels?>> The basic rule is that vowel letter + n/m
> >> indicates a nasal vowel,> unless another vowel letter follows.>> The
> >> French mapping from spelling to pronunciation requires more> context
> >> than other European languages (except Irish, I guess), i.e.,> you need
> >> to take more surrounding letters into account.>> Much like English
> >> orthography at its core reflects the pronunciation> of Middle English,
> >> French orthography is based on the pronunciation> of Old French, with
> >> centuries of sound changes layered on top.
> > The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite straightforward.
> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
but I agree this might not be standard.
Peter T. Daniels
May 31, 2021, 10:08:54 AM5/31/21
to
On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:22:18 AM UTC-4, wugi wrote:
> Op 31/05/2021 om 9:47 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
NO, HE DID NOT.
> Op 31/05/2021 om 9:47 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> >> The "French mapping from spelling to pronunciation" is quite
> >> straightforward.
> > In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> And stagner and bagne, immanquable and immuable, ville and fille, fils
> and fils; un accueil pareil dans l'abbaye des abeilles...
>
> Ok, still less crazy than English, admittedly.
in English schools, because despite what AF implied above, the French
mapping from pronunciation to spelling is very far from straightforward.
Pierre Jelenc
May 31, 2021, 11:27:34 AM5/31/21
to
In article <72aa357f-575b-4fe6...@googlegroups.com>,
But that's a regional pronunciation; [pwal] is standard. (Or [pwa:l] in
Québec.)
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org
Québec.)
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org
Ruud Harmsen
May 31, 2021, 11:30:52 AM5/31/21
to
Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>
>> The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many,
>> graphic renditions.
>> The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute
>> letters.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>
>> The main problem is that each phoneme has several, sometimes many,
>> graphic renditions.
>> The other issue is the Neoplatonician latinification, with all the mute
>> letters.
--
wugi
May 31, 2021, 3:42:46 PM5/31/21
to
Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
--
guido wugi
> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
--
guido wugi
António Marques
May 31, 2021, 4:18:13 PM5/31/21
to
language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
fanciful). The others are a matter of conflicting spelling subsystems.
Christian Weisgerber
May 31, 2021, 5:30:06 PM5/31/21
to
On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>
>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>
> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
> fanciful).
According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
> fanciful).
1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
are remnants.
"Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
pronunciation /wɛ/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
shift /wɛ/ > /wa/.
António Marques
May 31, 2021, 8:20:23 PM5/31/21
to
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>
>> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
>> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
>> fanciful).
>
> According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
>
> TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
> pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
> that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
> before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
> are remnants.
Cf Montaigne.
> On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>
>> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
>> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
>> fanciful).
>
> According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
>
> TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
> pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
> that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
> before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
> are remnants.
> "Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
> pronunciation /wɛ/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
> shift /wɛ/ > /wa/.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 1, 2021, 1:08:53 AM6/1/21
to
Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
languages, in this case French. Because the English version of
Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
always consult that one first.
My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
"From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.
is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
languages, in this case French. Because the English version of
Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
always consult that one first.
My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
"From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.
António Marques
Jun 1, 2021, 2:47:40 AM6/1/21
to
Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>
>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>
>>
>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>
> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
> languages, in this case French.
I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>
>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>
>>
>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>
> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
> languages, in this case French.
'onion'.
Dingbat
Jun 1, 2021, 3:57:47 AM6/1/21
to
On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:20:23 PM UTC-7, António Marques wrote:
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> > On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> >
> >>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> >>
> >> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
> >> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
> >> fanciful).
> >
> > According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> > 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
> >
> > TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
> > pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
> > that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
> > before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
> > are remnants.
I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> > On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> >
> >>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
> >>
> >> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
> >> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
> >> fanciful).
> >
> > According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
> > 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
> >
> > TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
> > pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
> > that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /ɲ/,
> > before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
> > are remnants.
it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
wugi
Jun 1, 2021, 6:06:26 AM6/1/21
to
Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.
--
guido wugi
> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>
>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>> languages, in this case French.
> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
> 'onion'.
You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>
>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>> languages, in this case French.
> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
> 'onion'.
I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.
--
guido wugi
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jun 1, 2021, 7:57:18 AM6/1/21
to
On 2021-06-01 10:06:18 +0000, wugi said:
> Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>
>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>> languages, in this case French.
>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>> 'onion'.
>
>
> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
Certainly not le Flamant, anyway. The English version of an explanatory
> Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>
>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>> languages, in this case French.
>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>> 'onion'.
>
>
> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
notice at the Parc Ornithologique du Pont de Gau says that the Flemings
come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't say where the Walloons do
their breeding.
>
> I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
> the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.
--
> I meant that le Hollandais, before the mot français oignon, would know
> the anglais word onion, and "read that into" the French word.
--
wugi
Jun 1, 2021, 11:03:00 AM6/1/21
to
Op 1/06/2021 om 13:57 schreef Athel Cornish-Bowden:
We have a lot of such mistaken translations, some funny, others merely
wrong.
A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
pierre.
In a (beautiful) "cité jardin", all streets of a ward were given bird
names. One of them is Rue du Troglodyte (Wren street). Facing the
nuisance of bilingualizing into Dutch (not sure if it was by an
unknowing Fleming or a dictionarising Frenchspeaker) it was translated
to "Holbewonerstraat" (Cave dweller street), after the obvious but
unfitting first meaning of troglodyte.
--
guido wugi
> On 2021-06-01 10:06:18 +0000, wugi said:
>
>> Op 1/06/2021 om 8:47 schreef António Marques:
>
>>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>>
>>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>>> languages, in this case French.
>>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write
>>> their word
>>> 'onion'.
>>
>>
>> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
>
> Certainly not le Flamant, anyway. The English version of an
> explanatory notice at the Parc Ornithologique du Pont de Gau says that
> the Flemings come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't say where the
> Walloons do their breeding.
Do they at all? ;)
>>>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>>>
>>>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>>>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>>>> languages, in this case French.
>>> I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write
>>> their word
>>> 'onion'.
>>
>>
>> You mean le Flamand (if not le Flamin):
>
> Certainly not le Flamant, anyway. The English version of an
> explanatory notice at the Parc Ornithologique du Pont de Gau says that
> the Flemings come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't say where the
> Walloons do their breeding.
We have a lot of such mistaken translations, some funny, others merely
wrong.
A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
pierre.
In a (beautiful) "cité jardin", all streets of a ward were given bird
names. One of them is Rue du Troglodyte (Wren street). Facing the
nuisance of bilingualizing into Dutch (not sure if it was by an
unknowing Fleming or a dictionarising Frenchspeaker) it was translated
to "Holbewonerstraat" (Cave dweller street), after the obvious but
unfitting first meaning of troglodyte.
--
guido wugi
António Marques
Jun 1, 2021, 12:23:17 PM6/1/21
to
was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
those were converted into 'da raíña'*.
(*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
-nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one - according to our
phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
_faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
portuguese, as befits their own phonology.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 1, 2021, 2:54:53 PM6/1/21
to
Tue, 1 Jun 2021 00:57:46 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:20:23 PM UTC-7, António Marques wrote:
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>> > On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>> >>
>> >> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
>> >> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
>> >> fanciful).
>> >
>> > According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
>> > 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
>> >
>> > TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
>> > pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
>> > that in Old French, <ign> was the notation for the palatal n /?/,
Phonotactics is king.
>> Cf Montaigne.
>> > "Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
>> > pronunciation /w?/ as the diphthong <oi> and then shared the sound
>> > shift /w?/ > /wa/.
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 5:20:23 PM UTC-7, António Marques wrote:
>> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>> > On 2021-05-31, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>> >>
>> >> Those two will likely be cases where the dialect that produced the written
>> >> language differed from the modern standard (as opposed to being outright
>> >> fanciful).
>> >
>> > According to TLFi, the Academy has been wavering for centuries:
>> > 1718-1762: oignon; 1798: ognon; 1835, 1878: oignon, ognon; 1935: oignon.
>> >
>> > TLFi mentions "ineffectual attempts" (velléités) at a spelling
>> > pronunciation /wa-/ or dropping the -i-. Wiktionary-FR points out
>> > before this was simplified to <gn>, and that "seigneur" and "oignon"
>> > are remnants.
>
>I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
The point is it hadn't, and couldn't have had.
>> > are remnants.
>
>I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
Phonotactics is king.
>> Cf Montaigne.
>> > "Poêle" looks like it arrived by a different route at the same
>> > shift /w?/ > /wa/.
>> So it turns out that neither is a dialectal variety.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 1, 2021, 2:56:08 PM6/1/21
to
Tue, 1 Jun 2021 06:47:38 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>
>>>
>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>
>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>> languages, in this case French.
>
>I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>'onion'.
Could be and then Guido's right.
>> Because the English version of
>> Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
>> includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
>> always consult that one first.
>>
>> My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
>> too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
>> French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
>> "From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
>> union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"
>>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
>> So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.
>>
>
>
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Mon, 31 May 2021 21:42:37 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 31/05/2021 om 17:30 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>>>> Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:17 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:
>>>>> In general, yes, but there are words like oignon and poêle.
>>>> I guessed oignon and I guessed right!
>>>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oignon#Pronunciation
>>>
>>>
>>> Pronouncing the English word the French way :0)
>>
>> No. The "en" in the URL means that part of the dictionary "Wiktionary"
>> is IN English, but it still a dictionary OF French and other
>> languages, in this case French.
>
>I believe le flammand meant that the French might as well write their word
>'onion'.
>> Because the English version of
>> Wiktionary is by far the most comprehensive, and nearly always
>> includes pronunciation, etymology, and declensions/conjugations, I
>> always consult that one first.
>>
>> My reaction to an alternative interpretation of your comment: Yes, I
>> too think the English onion, including its pronunciation, is from
>> French. Usually Normandy French, so let's look:
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/onion#Etymology
>> "From Middle English onyon, union, oinyon, borrowed from Anglo-Norman
>> union et al. and Old French oignon, from Latin [...]"
>>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ui#Dutch
>> So "ui" is wrong, "uien" should have been the singular, like ajuin.
>>
>
>
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 1, 2021, 2:57:38 PM6/1/21
to
Tue, 1 Jun 2021 12:06:18 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
True. I did, but tried to hide it. Le Portugais comprehendera.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 1, 2021, 3:09:17 PM6/1/21
to
Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:02:52 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
>Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
>building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
>the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
>merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
>as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
>pierre.
The same Steen, no doubt, which appears as Stein in the name of my now
home town (since 2016), IJsselstein, after the Castle, the only
building made of stone, around which the small town grew. The stone
castle along the river IJssel. Only one tower still stands, the rest
has recently been renovated as a town park, which indications of where
the old walls were, and there is a statue of a coragious, but
physically small woman:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_van_Heukelom
under whose supervision the castle and city were defended against the
ever evil bisschop of Utrecht, a mere 15 km along. Wars were local
then, and safety a luxury. Count your blessings. We can now go there
by bicycle and noone does us any harm.
>A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
>Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
>building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
>the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
>merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
>as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
>pierre.
home town (since 2016), IJsselstein, after the Castle, the only
building made of stone, around which the small town grew. The stone
castle along the river IJssel. Only one tower still stands, the rest
has recently been renovated as a town park, which indications of where
the old walls were, and there is a statue of a coragious, but
physically small woman:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_van_Heukelom
under whose supervision the castle and city were defended against the
ever evil bisschop of Utrecht, a mere 15 km along. Wars were local
then, and safety a luxury. Count your blessings. We can now go there
by bicycle and noone does us any harm.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 1, 2021, 3:55:21 PM6/1/21
to
Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:23:14 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>according to our
>phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
>in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
>_faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
>simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
>portuguese, as befits their own phonology.
Befits, yes. Nice word. Difficult to translate, into some languages.
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
>was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
>those were converted into 'da raíña'*.
>
>(*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
>-nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one -
Yes. I clearly remember having learnt that from you. And here.
>was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
>those were converted into 'da raíña'*.
>
>(*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
>-nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one -
>according to our
>phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
>in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
>_faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
>simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
>portuguese, as befits their own phonology.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 1, 2021, 3:56:24 PM6/1/21
to
Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:09:12 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:02:52 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>
>>A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
>>Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
>>building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
>>the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
>>merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
>>as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
>>pierre.
>
>The same Steen, no doubt, which appears as Stein in the name of my now
>home town (since 2016), IJsselstein, after the Castle, the only
>building made of stone, around which the small town grew. The stone
>castle along the river IJssel. Only one tower still stands, the rest
>has recently been renovated as a town park, which
with
scribeva:
>Tue, 1 Jun 2021 17:02:52 +0200: wugi <br...@wugi.be> scribeva:
>
>>A little historic street in Brussels centre (at a time it was indeed a
>>Flemish town) was called Steenstraat, because it led to the first stone
>>building ("het Steen"[-huis]), the count's stronghold on an "Island" in
>>the Senne river. Much later, in Francized times, the translation was
>>merely done as "Rue des pierres", since Steen was no longer understood
>>as the historic building and just taken to be the obvious "de steen", la
>>pierre.
>
>The same Steen, no doubt, which appears as Stein in the name of my now
>home town (since 2016), IJsselstein, after the Castle, the only
>building made of stone, around which the small town grew. The stone
>castle along the river IJssel. Only one tower still stands, the rest
>has recently been renovated as a town park, which
wugi
Jun 1, 2021, 4:02:21 PM6/1/21
to
Op 1/06/2021 om 9:57 schreef Dingbat:
> I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
https://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/gnon
So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!
Didn't know it was a shortened oignon. Neither about the supposed -ign-
graphy.
--
guido wugi
> I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!
Didn't know it was a shortened oignon. Neither about the supposed -ign-
graphy.
--
guido wugi
Dingbat
Jun 1, 2021, 6:37:07 PM6/1/21
to
https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/on-the-etymology-of-the-word-ramps
English chive and French cive come from the same source
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chive#English
Arnaud Fournet
Jun 2, 2021, 12:56:09 AM6/2/21
to
Le mardi 1 juin 2021 à 22:02:21 UTC+2, wugi a écrit :
> Op 1/06/2021 om 9:57 schreef Dingbat:
> > I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> > it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
> https://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/gnon
> So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!
yes, quite funny, with Southern spelling nh = ign
> Op 1/06/2021 om 9:57 schreef Dingbat:
> > I find it difficult to imagine that if Old French had the word <gnon>,
> > it would have spelled it as <ignon>.
> https://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/gnon
> So it first seems to have appeared as (de)nhon!
LOL
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Jun 2, 2021, 5:22:52 AM6/2/21
to
On 2021-06-01 19:55:18 +0000, Ruud Harmsen said:
> Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:23:14 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>> In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
>> was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
>> those were converted into 'da raíña'*.
You've sent me off on a tangent with this comment. There is a prominent
> Tue, 1 Jun 2021 16:23:14 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>> In Galicia there are a number of streets named after a man whose surname
>> was La Reina. When the time came to restore native place names, a number of
>> those were converted into 'da raíña'*.
Chilean family called Larraín, and an up-market comuna of Santiago
called La Reina (where the late unlamented Erich Honecker spent his
declining years). I had sometimes wondered if the slight similarity of
names had any significance, but apparently not: La Reina means what it
looks as if it means, and Larraín is of Basque rather than Galician
origin.
>>
>> (*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
>> -nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one -
>
> Yes. I clearly remember having learnt that from you. And here.
>
>> according to our
>> phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
>> in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
>> _faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
>> simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
>> portuguese, as befits their own phonology.
>
> Befits, yes. Nice word. Difficult to translate, into some languages.
--
>> (*} Portuguese doesn't mark stress when it falls on a hiatus vowel before
>> -nh-, which is an exception, albeit a logical one -
>
> Yes. I clearly remember having learnt that from you. And here.
>
>> according to our
>> phonology there cannot be a stressed diphthong in those circumstances. But,
>> in a display of incoherence, we don't apply the same reasoning to -lh-, so
>> _faúlha_. It applies to few words anyway. The galician official standard
>> simply copies the rules of spanish, which relies on context much less than
>> portuguese, as befits their own phonology.
>
> Befits, yes. Nice word. Difficult to translate, into some languages.
--
Dingbat
Jun 2, 2021, 6:01:18 AM6/2/21
to
On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > entente
> > lignes
> Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>
> There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > > --
>
> > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> >
> > timbre
> >
> > entente
> > lignes
> Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
>
> There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
Peter T. Daniels
Jun 2, 2021, 8:35:06 AM6/2/21
to
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 6:01:18 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 6:14:02 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 30, 2021 at 5:24:27 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > > An articulatory observation about the nasal vowels of French:
> > > > https://rudhar.com/fonetics/nasstrng.htm
> > > Can a vowel before a nasal consonant be either nasal or non-nasal and if so, how do you tell whether to make it nasal?
> > > timbre
> > > entente
> > > lignes
> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
> >
> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>
> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
Both. As expected in that environment.
> > > timbre
> > > entente
> > > lignes
> > Either you know the language or you know the spelling.
> >
> > There is no nasal consonant in timbre or entente. \
> > There is no nasal vowel in lignes.
>
> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 2, 2021, 8:52:28 AM6/2/21
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Wed, 2 Jun 2021 03:01:16 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
But that's American English, not French.
Some Americans nasalise ALL vowels, regardless. She probably does not.
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
Some Americans nasalise ALL vowels, regardless. She probably does not.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 2, 2021, 8:57:36 AM6/2/21
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Wed, 2 Jun 2021 05:35:04 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
Also in British English, also in French? I don't think so.
List to "aim" in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHxTwHYg1WE . Fully
nasalised all over. Then compare https://nl.forvo.com/word/aim/ .
Clear difference.
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
List to "aim" in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHxTwHYg1WE . Fully
nasalised all over. Then compare https://nl.forvo.com/word/aim/ .
Clear difference.
Dingbat
Jun 2, 2021, 11:23:13 PM6/2/21
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> Listen to Emma pronouncing Macedoine
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
PTD:
> Does she have a nasal vowel, a nasal consonant or both?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsOQsabUvU
Both. As expected in that environment.
My only question in my 1st posting was:
In which contexts is this expected?
Why is it expected for only one of these words?
timbre
entente
lignes
macedoine
And is it expected only from some speakers?
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 3, 2021, 4:24:51 AM6/3/21
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Wed, 2 Jun 2021 20:23:11 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
Lots of things language have no why and wherefore. They are as the
are.
>timbre
>entente
>lignes
>macedoine
Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>And is it expected only from some speakers?
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
are.
>timbre
>entente
>lignes
>macedoine
Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>And is it expected only from some speakers?
Dingbat
Jun 3, 2021, 6:56:27 AM6/3/21
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António Marques
Jun 3, 2021, 8:16:42 AM6/3/21
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In breton you have a number of minimal pairs between Vn and (nasal V).
Arnaud Fournet
Jun 3, 2021, 12:45:44 PM6/3/21
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enamouré is another instance, not reflected by spelling.
Ruud Harmsen
Jun 3, 2021, 1:21:09 PM6/3/21
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Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
What is a nasal stop??
<ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
Arnaud Fournet
Jun 3, 2021, 2:55:20 PM6/3/21
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wugi
Jun 3, 2021, 4:49:23 PM6/3/21
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Op 3/06/2021 om 18:45 schreef Arnaud Fournet:
Nous vînmes?
--
guido wugi
--
guido wugi
wugi
Jun 3, 2021, 5:02:02 PM6/3/21
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Op 3/06/2021 om 22:49 schreef wugi:
Immanquable et al. which I mentioned elsewhere; unpredictable whether
im-m... is going to be nasal or not (in most cases not).
But those are not with "ending stops", compare:
im-m... is going to be nasal or not (in most cases not).
But those are not with "ending stops", compare:
Dingbat
Jun 4, 2021, 2:46:23 AM6/4/21
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On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 10:21:09 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
> Thu, 3 Jun 2021 03:56:25 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat scribeva:
> >On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 1:24:51 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >timbre
> >> >entente
> >> >lignes
> >> >macedoine
> >>
> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>
> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
> What is a nasal stop??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_consonant
> >> >timbre
> >> >entente
> >> >lignes
> >> >macedoine
> >>
> >> Are you asking about French words, or English loanwords from French?
>
> >French words. Is there any French word with a nasal vowel followed by a nasal stop in a French accent?
> What is a nasal stop??