finishing off with Magdalenian (declension system of PIE)

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Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 14, 2019, 3:11:16 AM8/14/19
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Arnaud Fournet believes that he finished off with Magdalenian by asking me
about the origin of the declension system in PIE. We exchanged several
arguments. Here is a new reply to him that outlines a couple of problems
involved:

Magdalenian is deeper than PIE and its declension system (grammatical word
endings). I found Magdalenian also in Hebrew, via the Bible and the Goebekli
Tepe. Semitic has different declension systems. Grammatical suffixes (and
adfixes and infixes) are later additions to the basic words generated by
the four laws of Magdalenian. These words had been memorized and conveyed
as formulae, most often as double formulae used for ritual ceremonies.
A treasure of several hundred double formulae only would have sufficed.

I don't understand how a PIE shaman or priest should have memorized 30,000
till 50,000 lexical units (Mallora and Adams 2006) without written sources.
Magdalenian solves the problem with compounds. 400 words allow in principle
160,000 compounds of two words, or 64,000,000 compounds of three words,
or 25,600,000,000 words of four words like AD TOR OC CO Mycenaean atoroqo
Greek anthropos, the formula of the human condition (explained several times).

Compounds are the forte of Magdalenian, its poesy, from Greek poein 'to make',
its creative power.

Plenty so-called 'roots' of PIE, also of Hebrew, are such compounds.
You have still not provided evidence to the contrary.

If you believe that you can finish off with my Magdalernian nonsense,
why don't you start a separate thread and become the hero of sci.lang?
May it be that you fear my arguments are stronger than you'd like they
were? a mountain range appearing as a mere haze from the distance
but insurmountable when you get near?

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 14, 2019, 3:54:21 AM8/14/19
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On Wednesday, August 14, 2019 at 10:11:16 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> Arnaud Fournet believes that he finished off with Magdalenian

Magdalenian never existed outside your fevered (nota bene, fevered, not fertile) imagination. Thus, it does not need to be finished off.

Arnaud Fournet

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Aug 14, 2019, 9:46:04 AM8/14/19
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Le mercredi 14 août 2019 09:11:16 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> Arnaud Fournet believes that he finished off with Magdalenian by asking me
> about the origin of the declension system in PIE. We exchanged several
> arguments. Here is a new reply to him that outlines a couple of problems
> involved:
>
> Magdalenian is deeper than PIE and its declension system (grammatical word
> endings). I found Magdalenian also in Hebrew, via the Bible and the Goebekli
> Tepe. Semitic has different declension systems. Grammatical suffixes (and
> adfixes and infixes) are later additions to the basic words generated by
> the four laws of Magdalenian. These words had been memorized and conveyed
> as formulae, most often as double formulae used for ritual ceremonies.
> A treasure of several hundred double formulae only would have sufficed.
>
> I don't understand how a PIE shaman or priest should have memorized 30,000
> till 50,000 lexical units (Mallora and Adams 2006) without written sources.
> Magdalenian solves the problem with compounds. 400 words allow in principle
> 160,000 compounds of two words, or 64,000,000 compounds of three words,
> or 25,600,000,000 words of four words like AD TOR OC CO Mycenaean atoroqo
> Greek anthropos, the formula of the human condition (explained several times).
>
> Compounds are the forte of Magdalenian, its poesy, from Greek poein 'to make',
> its creative power.
>
> Plenty so-called 'roots' of PIE, also of Hebrew, are such compounds.
> You have still not provided evidence to the contrary.
>
> If you believe that you can finish off with my Magdalernian nonsense,

Your "Magdalernian nonsense" !!
Agreed.

Daud Deden

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Aug 14, 2019, 10:02:02 AM8/14/19
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Compounds are the forte of Magdalenian, its poesy, from Greek poein 'to make',
> its c/reative power.


Poesy@Grk: poetic(rhythmic)

Poa@Azt: count

Bua(t/h/ng)@Mly: do, fruit-fertl-birth/eject

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 15, 2019, 2:42:39 AM8/15/19
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The poetic genius of Magdalenian becomes apparent in surviving cvompounds
which made language inflate: a few words can be arranged to very many
compounds which then were contracted to words, or so-called roots of
Nostratic and PIE. Reminds me somehow of the inflation of the early
universe. Or, more realistically, of the quickly growing diversity of
Magdalenian tools. A new generations of linguists may find pleasure in
revealing those compounds, beyond my beginnings. Once they have learned
to look at language along the flow of time. Extrapolating the present
directly into a remote past can't solve all problems. We have to study
the rich legacy of the Stone Age and then proceed forward in time.

The poetic genius of Magdalenian compounds fills me with awe, poetic from
Greek poein 'do, make, build, create' - creating and shaping a world in
the mind.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 15, 2019, 2:45:47 AM8/15/19
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> The poetic genius of Magdalenian...

There is no poetic genius to Magdalenian. Now eat your strychnine, that is a good boy.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 16, 2019, 3:21:47 AM8/16/19
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> The poetic genius of Magdalenian becomes apparent in surviving cvompounds
> which made language inflate: a few words can be arranged to very many
> compounds which then were contracted to words, or so-called roots of
> Nostratic and PIE. Reminds me somehow of the inflation of the early
> universe. Or, more realistically, of the quickly growing diversity of
> Magdalenian tools. A new generations of linguists may find pleasure in
> revealing those compounds, beyond my beginnings. Once they have learned
> to look at language along the flow of time. Extrapolating the present
> directly into a remote past can't solve all problems. We have to study
> the rich legacy of the Stone Age and then proceed forward in time.
>
> The poetic genius of Magdalenian compounds fills me with awe, poetic from
> Greek poein 'do, make, build, create' - creating and shaping a world in
> the mind.

I don't force my alternative approach to early language but wait for ideas
to bubble up on their own. Years ago I found an explanation for the origin
of articles, via the Divine Hind of Altamira who called life into existence,
while articles call the subsequent nouns into existence, as it were. I also
noticed that nominative and genitive etc. are sometimes different words,
most spectacular the case of Zeus, allegedly the only name in the Greek
pantheon that poses no problem

TYR for the one who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give,
TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus - Zeus the nominative

DhAG meaning able, good in the sense of able, wherefrom theos deus
dingir divine etc., also Dios - Dios the genitive of Zeus

Assuming that various declension systems (grammatical suffixes, affixes,
infixes) evolved together with agriculture that was invented more than
10,000 years ago in the region of the Goebekli Tepe, I left this field
to others, considering that many people work on sounds and grammar,
whereas semantics is being much neglected. Maybe one day I or somene
else may have an idea that fills the gap.

As I said, I don't force Magdalenian, and my hermeneutic interpretations
justify my work, among them Chauvet, Lascaux, Altamira, Abri Bourdois,
Goebekli Tepe, Phaistos Disc (in the wake of Derk Ohlenroth's decipherment),
Odyssey, Genesis, Exodus, Solomon and Ezekiel.

My stalker of more than thirteen years just recently claimed that he could
deliver such an interpretation within a quarter of an hour (whereas I needed
decades). He could but he can't. A little difference that makes him fly
from one range into the next one. He just told me to eat strichnyne.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 16, 2019, 6:11:33 AM8/16/19
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You do.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 16, 2019, 6:12:46 AM8/16/19
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On Thursday, August 15, 2019 at 9:42:39 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>
>
> The poetic genius of Magdalenian compounds fills me with awe

Magdalenian compounds are your own creations. So, what you say amounts to 'My own poetic genius fills me with awe'.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 16, 2019, 6:15:59 AM8/16/19
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On Friday, August 16, 2019 at 10:21:47 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> He just told me to eat strichnyne.

You can't even spell "strychnine" correctly.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 17, 2019, 3:44:04 AM8/17/19
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Panu Petteri Höglund, my stalker of more than thirteen years, tells me
to eat strychnine. If I did, I would finally get rid of him. On the other
hand I wish to go on with my work. What shall I do? I asked the neurons
in my brain. They held a poll. The result is pretty clear (if a soccer
team gained such victory they'd be world master forever)

200,000,000,000 : 0

for the second option. Well, being a democrat I follow their decision
and go on with my work.

Where is Arnaud Fournet? I started this thread for him, because he bragged
several times that I failed his test case. Here he could show how he can
finish off with me. And why is there no-one else apart from the höglhound?
Because you love Magdalenian. You love to hate it. And above all you love
the surprises that come from it and make sense. Magdalenian is far from
trivial.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 17, 2019, 7:52:19 AM8/17/19
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A win-win situation.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 20, 2019, 2:54:39 AM8/20/19
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> I don't force my alternative approach to early language but wait for ideas
> to bubble up on their own. Years ago I found an explanation for the origin
> of articles, via the Divine Hind of Altamira who called life into existence,
> while articles call the subsequent nouns into existence, as it were. I also
> noticed that nominative and genitive etc. are sometimes different words,
> most spectacular the case of Zeus, allegedly the only name in the Greek
> pantheon that poses no problem
>
> TYR for the one who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give,
> TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disc, Derk Ohlenroth)
> Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus - Zeus the nominative
>
> DhAG meaning able, good in the sense of able, wherefrom theos deus
> dingir divine etc., also Dios - Dios the genitive of Zeus
>
> Assuming that various declension systems (grammatical suffixes, affixes,
> infixes) evolved together with agriculture that was invented more than
> 10,000 years ago in the region of the Goebekli Tepe, I left this field
> to others, considering that many people work on sounds and grammar,
> whereas semantics is being much neglected. Maybe one day I or somene
> else may have an idea that fills the gap.
>
> As I said, I don't force Magdalenian, and my hermeneutic interpretations
> justify my work, among them Chauvet, Lascaux, Altamira, Abri Bourdois,
> Goebekli Tepe, Phaistos Disc (in the wake of Derk Ohlenroth's decipherment),
> Odyssey, Genesis, Exodus, Solomon and Ezekiel.


A few grammatical elements turn Magdalenian from a ritual shamanic language
to a practical and functional everyday language. In the spring of 2005 I wrote
a fisherman's complaint; a speech of a time traveling teacher asking the parents
of a Magdalenian belle for her hand; and on Pentecost 2005 a cheeky assistant
of the Holy Ghost helped me retrieve the summer hit from Montignac in 14 385 BC

LET US JOIN THE SUMMER FESTIVAL OF MONTIGNAC, number 1 Magdalenian hit in the
summer of 14,385 BC; you hear first a man sing, then a woman reply, then their
voices join in the refrain; accompanied by flutes and drums:

CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB ...
TA'T LAB, MA OC
CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL ...
TA'T BEL, MA OC

CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL ...
TA'T BAL, MEL OC
MAJA VOD MAC-DA'-LUN-AC

CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB CA LAB ...
MA'M LAB, MA OC
CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL CA BEL ...
MA'M BEL, MA OC
CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL CA BAL ...
MA'M BAL, MA OC
ELM MAC VOD BEL-CA-UR-AC

PESH VAD UR
SHDEB MON DIG LUN AC

PESH VAD UR
SHDEB MON DIG LUN AC


Free translation:

Do you hear the winter sun-horse?
You have cold, apple of my eye.

Do you hear the spring sun-horse?
You have warm, my darling.

Do you hear the summer sun-horse?
You have hot, honey,
Daughter of a chief of the Moonshine Valley

I hear the winter sun-horse,
I have cold, apple of my eye.

I hear the spring sun-horse,
I have warm, my darling.

I hear the summer sun-horse,
I have hot, my love,
Noble son of a chief from the land of the warm blue sky

Let us swim in the deep blue river Vézère,
And then join the summer festival of Montignac

Let us swim in the beautiful deep blue river Vézère,
And then happily join the summer festival of Montignac

PS A tutoree of mine with a serious dyscalculy but a wonderful singing voice
interpreted the song directly from the leaf. Her beautiful clear voice and
the ad hoc melodies inspired by the special language rang through the whole
building. Marvellous.

Esperanto produced no Beatles and no ABBAs.

PIE has but Schleicher's tale, neither a novel nor a songbook.

Magdalenian passed the singing test with flying colors.

António Marques

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Aug 20, 2019, 8:21:29 AM8/20/19
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Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> Esperanto produced no Beatles and no ABBAs.

There is nothing good that can be said about Eo.


> Magdalenian passed the singing test

As would anything sung by a nice woman, from the perspective of someone who
is attracted to women.


> with flying colors.

Not, however, the language test - how do you know the first verses are 'do
you....?' and the latter ones are 'Yes, I...'?


Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 21, 2019, 2:16:11 AM8/21/19
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On Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 2:21:29 PM UTC+2, António Marques wrote:
>
> Not, however, the language test - how do you know the first verses are 'do
> you....?' and the latter ones are 'Yes, I...'?

Magdalenian was spoken directly, from one person to the other, embedded in
body language, making reference to the situation. This doesn't work anymore
when I spend holidays on a shore of the Barbados (which I never did) reading
a book about the expedition to the Arctica in the nineteenth century -
the surroundings and the book are in a wide contrast, which must be bridged
by a lot of words and explicit grammatical constructions.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 21, 2019, 4:30:17 AM8/21/19
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On Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 3:21:29 PM UTC+3, António Marques wrote:
> Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> >
> > Esperanto produced no Beatles and no ABBAs.
>
> There is nothing good that can be said about Eo.

Yes, there is. Esperanto is a language that can be learned, studied and spoken, which makes it infinitely better than Magdalenian.

It has also produced its own pop musicians, such as the Dolcxamar band I pointed out to Franz years ago. However, Franz did not register this, because Franz is basically an automaton designed for repeating its programmed prejudices.

António Marques

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Aug 21, 2019, 3:33:28 PM8/21/19
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Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski <craoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 3:21:29 PM UTC+3, António Marques wrote:
>> Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>> Esperanto produced no Beatles and no ABBAs.
>>
>> There is nothing good that can be said about Eo.
>
> Yes, there is. Esperanto is a language that can be learned, studied and
> spoken, which makes it infinitely better than Magdalenian.

Barely. The whole 'every word class has a specific ending' thing makes it
incredibly ugly, along with other things that make it even more so.
Is there even any human language with such a feature?


> It has also produced its own pop musicians, such as the Dolcxamar band I
> pointed out to Franz years ago.

Ugh.


> However, Franz did not register this, because Franz is basically an
> automaton designed for repeating its programmed prejudices.

It's a bit like those wasps who you can trick into repeating the same
chores again and again and again and again and again.


Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 21, 2019, 3:39:23 PM8/21/19
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On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 10:33:28 PM UTC+3, António Marques wrote:
> Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski <craoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 3:21:29 PM UTC+3, António Marques wrote:
> >> Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Esperanto produced no Beatles and no ABBAs.
> >>
> >> There is nothing good that can be said about Eo.
> >
> > Yes, there is. Esperanto is a language that can be learned, studied and
> > spoken, which makes it infinitely better than Magdalenian.
>
> Barely. The whole 'every word class has a specific ending' thing makes it
> incredibly ugly, along with other things that make it even more so.
> Is there even any human language with such a feature?

There probably is. I don't think it is particularly beautiful either, but it can get young people laid, and that is raison d'etre enough for it.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 22, 2019, 2:36:05 AM8/22/19
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On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 10:30:17 AM UTC+2, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>
> It has also produced its own pop musicians, such as the Dolcxamar band I pointed out to Franz years ago. However, Franz did not register this, because Franz is basically an automaton designed for repeating its programmed prejudices.

We had this before, even twice. The Dolcxamar band are neither the Beatles
nor the ABBAs. What I heard of songs in Esperanto was rather stilted.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 22, 2019, 2:43:04 AM8/22/19
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On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 9:33:28 PM UTC+2, António Marques wrote:
>
> It's a bit like those wasps who you can trick into repeating the same
> chores again and again and again and again and again.

Evolution does just that, repeating a biological algorithm over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over again, sometimes a mistake happens but changes nothing
much, or a bad mistake means the end, but occsionally a good mutation
occurs and makes things move forward.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 22, 2019, 3:07:22 AM8/22/19
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Apart from that I introduced a grammatical element (as I said: a few
grammatical elements turn Magdalenian into a regular language), namely
T'AT LAB, T'AT BEL, T'AT BAL, inspired by French tu as 'you have',
you are/have cold, warm, hot. Magdalenian began as an experiment in
Paleo-linguistics, and the transition form a word generator used for
ritual purposes to a regular language will also come from experiments.
I don't force the Magdalenian approach. For the time being the word
generator is sufficient for my purpose, a tool for hermeneutic inter-
pretations of cave art and rock art and mobile art and early literature.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 22, 2019, 5:46:23 AM8/22/19
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"Stilted" is just one of your snarl words. Actually, you did recognize that the Dolcxamar are able musicians, but you have this neurotic prejudice that Esperanto, for some reasons, never leads to anything worthy.

This reminds me of one racy anecdote: a French professor (of course a French one) tells his students that Esperanto is a stilted language, and that you can't have sexual intercourse*) in Esperanto. One girl then raises her hand and says: "Um...I have done it."

*) In the original version, it was of course "you can't make love in Esperanto", but "to make love" is a stilted euphemism for sexual intercourse.

Peter T. Daniels

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Aug 22, 2019, 7:49:27 AM8/22/19
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On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 5:46:23 AM UTC-4, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:

> This reminds me of one racy anecdote: a French professor (of course a French one) tells his students that Esperanto is a stilted language, and that you can't have sexual intercourse*) in Esperanto. One girl then raises her hand and says: "Um...I have done it."
>
> *) In the original version, it was of course "you can't make love in Esperanto", but "to make love" is a stilted euphemism for sexual intercourse.

How do you have sex in a language?

Ruud Harmsen

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Aug 22, 2019, 3:28:32 PM8/22/19
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Thu, 22 Aug 2019 02:46:21 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
<craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:

>"Stilted" is just one of your snarl words. Actually, you did recognize that=
> the Dolcxamar are able musicians, but you have this neurotic prejudice tha=
>t Esperanto, for some reasons, never leads to anything worthy.

It does, sometimes.
https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/ambival.htm
https://rudhar.com/religion/Homaranismo/trdhomia.htm

>This reminds me of one racy anecdote: a French professor (of course a Frenc=
>h one)

French, not Frenc\nh

>tells his students that Esperanto is a stilted language, and that yo=
>u can't have sexual intercourse*) in Esperanto. One girl then raises her ha=
>nd and says: "Um...I have done it."

Fiki is the word, I believe?

>*) In the original version, it was of course "you can't make love in Espera=
>nto", but "to make love" is a stilted euphemism for sexual intercourse.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

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Aug 22, 2019, 3:33:38 PM8/22/19
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Thu, 22 Aug 2019 02:46:21 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
<craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:

>*) In the original version, it was of course "you can't make love in Espera=
>nto", but "to make love" is a stilted euphemism for sexual intercourse.

Serious question: does the perfectly innocuous Portuguese word ficar
mean anything obscene in Spanish?

Someone somewhere else suggested that. Meso America or Columbia or
some such.

Ruud Harmsen

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Aug 22, 2019, 3:35:06 PM8/22/19
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Thu, 22 Aug 2019 21:33:36 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
Rato, rata, ratón, ratão.

Any comments?

António Marques

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Aug 22, 2019, 4:42:20 PM8/22/19
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Eh?
Rat(inh)a means beaver.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 22, 2019, 6:28:29 PM8/22/19
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I gather you only use foreign prostitutes who don't speak your language,

Daud Deden

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Aug 22, 2019, 11:25:07 PM8/22/19
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An example of your 'scientific methodology' no doubt.

Ruud Harmsen

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Aug 23, 2019, 3:42:22 AM8/23/19
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Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:42:16 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
My wife, learning Spanish, asked me about rato. I though rat and/of
mouse, from Portuguese, but it Spanish it means "while, period,
stretch of time", but rata = rat, ratón = mouse, while pt rata, as you
say, means beaver (not the animal).

Confusing, no?

Interlingua: rat = ratto, mouse = mus, mure, mouse.

Peter T. Daniels

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Aug 23, 2019, 8:05:40 AM8/23/19
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What does speaking a language have to do with the sex act?

You're the one that changed "make love" to "have sex."

António Marques

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Aug 23, 2019, 9:05:48 AM8/23/19
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Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:42:16 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>
>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Thu, 22 Aug 2019 21:33:36 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>>> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Thu, 22 Aug 2019 02:46:21 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
>>>> <craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>>>>
>>>>> *) In the original version, it was of course "you can't make love in Espera=
>>>>> nto", but "to make love" is a stilted euphemism for sexual intercourse.
>>>>
>>>> Serious question: does the perfectly innocuous Portuguese word ficar
>>>> mean anything obscene in Spanish?
>>>>
>>>> Someone somewhere else suggested that. Meso America or Columbia or
>>>> some such.
>>>
>>> Rato, rata, ratón, ratão.
>>>
>>> Any comments?
>>
>> Eh?
>> Rat(inh)a means beaver.
>
> My wife, learning Spanish, asked me about rato. I though rat and/of
> mouse, from Portuguese, but it Spanish it means "while, period,
> stretch of time",

(a small one)

I can't say the spanish meaning feels alien, maybe because we're used to
'rato' carrying the idea of 'smallness' almost as much as that of 'mouse'.
If you ask a child if they're hungry, they may reply they have a
ratinho/ratito (presumably in their stomach doing mouse-y things), which
will mean they're just a tiny bit hungry.
There's also the exceedingly rare verb 'ratear'.

> but rata = rat, ratón = mouse, while pt rata, as you
> say, means beaver (not the animal).
>
> Confusing, no?

In Brazil a computer mouse is called 'mouse' /'mawsI/.


Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 23, 2019, 9:38:12 AM8/23/19
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There is this thing called consensual sex act. To establish the consensus you use language. Moreover, sexual arousal can be created by using sexually explicit language.

>
> You're the one that changed "make love" to "have sex."

"Make love" is a euphemistic and insincere expression of the kind that should only be used ironically. And I didn't change it into "have sex", but into "sexual intercourse", if my memory serves.

Peter T. Daniels

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Aug 23, 2019, 10:58:09 AM8/23/19
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On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 9:38:12 AM UTC-4, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 3:05:40 PM UTC+3, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 6:28:29 PM UTC-4, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 2:49:27 PM UTC+3, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 5:46:23 AM UTC-4, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:

> > > > > This reminds me of one racy anecdote: a French professor (of course a French one) tells his students that Esperanto is a stilted language, and that you can't have sexual intercourse*) in Esperanto. One girl then raises her hand and says: "Um...I have done it."
> > > > > *) In the original version, it was of course "you can't make love in Esperanto", but "to make love" is a stilted euphemism for sexual intercourse.
> > > > How do you have sex in a language?
> > > I gather you only use foreign prostitutes who don't speak your language,
> > What does speaking a language have to do with the sex act?
>
> There is this thing called consensual sex act. To establish the consensus you use language. Moreover, sexual arousal can be created by using sexually explicit language.

Now you're talking about things that go _before_ the sex act.

> > You're the one that changed "make love" to "have sex."
>
> "Make love" is a euphemistic and insincere expression of the kind that should only be used ironically.

False. Are you suggesting that there is nothing to interpersonal, intimate
relationships other than the sex act?

> And I didn't change it into "have sex", but into "sexual intercourse", if my memory serves.

And I changed that to the normal way of saying it in colloquial English.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 29, 2019, 3:00:05 AM8/29/19
to

> Apart from that I introduced a grammatical element (as I said: a few
> grammatical elements turn Magdalenian into a regular language), namely
> T'AT LAB, T'AT BEL, T'AT BAL, inspired by French tu as 'you have',
> you are/have cold, warm, hot. Magdalenian began as an experiment in
> Paleo-linguistics, and the transition form a word generator used for
> ritual purposes to a regular language will also come from experiments.
> I don't force the Magdalenian approach. For the time being the word
> generator is sufficient for my purpose, a tool for hermeneutic inter-
> pretations of cave art and rock art and mobile art and early literature.


Magdalenian as word generator allows hermeneutic interpretations,
and helps me deepen them. The latter is the case in the case of Homer's
Odyssey. It helped me solve the Ithaca riddle - no traces found on the
island of Ithaca that goes along with Homer. Below the shortest possible
summary of the epic, result of decades of studies and working. (The Finn
who is not a Finn but an Irishman and not an Irishman but a Slav bragged
that he could write such an interpretation within a quarter of an hour
- why don't we ever see anything like that from him?). And who cares
about finishing off with Magdalenian? As I said, you guys love it.


Odysseus returns home from Troy and arrives in Ithaca, which named the
Peloponnese and especially the Argolis, and survives in the name of a
relatively small island off the southwestern Peloponnese - young bull ITA
sky CA, together ITA CA Ithaca, under the sky of the young Zeus bull
(mature bull ATI sky CA, together ATI CA Attica, under the sky of the
mature Zeus bull). The hero sleeps on the shore of his home. A long series
of dreams bring him back to - Troy, Troy in disguise, and blended with other
places and periods of time. In his first dream he encounters the one-eyed
giant Polyphem, Homeric symbol of Troy, his one eye the acropolis overlooking
the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa that provided protected
shelter for 5,000 to 10,000 people, and his den or cave the harbor in the
Besik bay where foreign ships (apart from the Greek ones) waited for favorable
winds and were forced to pay high tributes and fees. (And the Trojan horse?
a proud Achaean ship with the bow of a stallion, seemingly empty, drifting by
the harbor in the Besik bay ...) The first dream tells the war from the
Greek perspective. In his last dream he reaches pleasant Scherie, recognized
by Eberhard Zangger as a time travel to an early Troy (dramatic journey end
of book 5, idyllic arrival beginning of book 6). When Odysseus rcognizes
where he is and what a lovely place he destroyed, or will destroy in the time
perspective of the Phaeakians, he can't help but weeping. The final dream
tells him the war from the Trojan perspective. Now he falls in a deep sleep.
On the following morning he is ready for his next task, freeing his home
from the shameless suitors of his wife Penelope, those who profit from
the land without meeting their obligations, Penelope from PAS LOP, everywhere
PAS fortified settlements enveloped by surrounding palisades or walls LOP, and
Peloponnese from POL LOP PAS, fortified settlements POL (Greek singular polis)
enveloped by surrounding palisades or walls LOP everywhere PAS. And beautiful
Helen, cause of the Trojan war? she personifies tin, KAL EN Helen, tin found
in EN mines of the Underworld KAL in Central Asia, bound to pass the Darda-
nelles where the Trojans laid hands on the precious cargo, abducting Helen,
as it were.

The Odyssey is a modern book, anticipating Freud's dream logic, and science
fiction with a time travel.

Lord Laertes the gardener, father of Odysseus, is the hero of the Phaistos
Disc as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth, Eponymous Tiryns; Odysseus personifies
the end of the Helladic period; and his son Telemachos 'Far Away War' Greece
in the time of the second Messenian war. Homer 2 of the Odyssey (compiling
material of a dozen or even sixteen bards, Ricardo Mansilla) feared for the
coherence of the Greek civilization (symbolized by Odysseus shooting an arrow
through the handle holes of seventeen axes, a near impossible feat). Homer 1
of the Iliad flourished in the time of the first Messenian war and was moti-
vated by the same deep concern.

Arnaud Fournet

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Aug 29, 2019, 3:41:02 AM8/29/19
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Le jeudi 29 août 2019 09:00:05 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > Apart from that I introduced a grammatical element (as I said: a few
> > grammatical elements turn Magdalenian into a regular language), namely
> > T'AT LAB, T'AT BEL, T'AT BAL, inspired by French tu as 'you have',
> > you are/have cold, warm, hot. Magdalenian began as an experiment in
> > Paleo-linguistics, and the transition form a word generator used for
> > ritual purposes to a regular language will also come from experiments.
> > I don't force the Magdalenian approach. For the time being the word
> > generator is sufficient for my purpose, a tool for hermeneutic inter-
> > pretations of cave art and rock art and mobile art and early literature.
>
>
> Magdalenian as word generator allows hermeneutic interpretations,
> and helps me deepen them. The latter is the case in the case of Homer's
> Odyssey. It helped me solve the Ithaca riddle - no traces found on the
> island of Ithaca that goes along with Homer. Below the shortest possible
> summary of the epic, result of decades of studies and working. (The Finn
> who is not a Finn but an Irishman and not an Irishman but a Slav bragged
> that he could write such an interpretation within a quarter of an hour
> - why don't we ever see anything like that from him?). And who cares
> about finishing off with Magdalenian? As I said, you guys love it.

Five seconds of absolute glee.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 29, 2019, 4:09:15 AM8/29/19
to
Yes, you love Magdalenian too, you just don't know it yet.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Aug 31, 2019, 3:36:44 AM8/31/19
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A word on apperception and 'fulguration'


I learned several languages, among them Latin and Ancient Greek, for years,
intensively, and studied (on my own) cave art and rock art and mobile art,
modern art and Renaissance art and Greek art and Egyptian art and Celtic art,
for decades, also early literature, Homer's Odyssey and the Bible.

If you learn a lot, not only from textbooks but also along ideas and
experiments of your own, you can aquire what is called apperception,
a higher form being 'fulguration' - a deep insight seemingly coming out
of nowhere.

Such a moment linked a stunning piece of rock art and word language.
Late Klaus Schmidt, excavator of the Goebekli Tepe, showed the big limestone
ring from there in his book, saying its meaning is not known. Well, I saw
a male head ex negativo, the sky shining through, the face consisting of
nothing else than air and light - and this made the spark fly. I thought of
Ouranos read as AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR (poetic German has Aar for eagle,
König der Lüfte, king of the airs, plural) and light RAA (the supreme Egyptian
god RA made his appearance in the solar disc) and a mind NOS of his own
(Greek nous 'mind), so the Greek sky god Ouranos would originally have been
AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and lightr RAA and a mind NOS of his own,
personifying the sky

http://www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG

Ouranos was the only Greek god who had no temple and no shrine. Instead
he had the most glorious natural sanctuary, valleys, hollows between hills
and mountains filled with air and light, for example the Val d'Hérens
in the western Swiss Alps, leading up to a hevanly throne flanked by
shining white snow covered mountains

AAR RAA NOS ARANOS eRANS Hérens

Other apperceptions and 'fulgurations' linked cave art and language, again
visual language and word language.

I documented every step of my Magdalenian adventure in sci.lang, from
early 2005 till today, end of August 2019.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Aug 31, 2019, 6:39:50 PM8/31/19
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- Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira
spoke.

- The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the
people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

- Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that
can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims
to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

- Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense
logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of
conclusions must be "nachvollzogen" by other scholars.

- You have not been able to present us with either evidence or
conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn
over people who have demanded such things.

- On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents
have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be
"nachvollzogen".

- Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and
comparison of the languages involved.

- On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches
of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic
language.You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have
learnt languages unknown to you.

- Thus, and therefore, we don't feel morally or intellectually
compelled to take Magdalenian seriously.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 2, 2019, 2:58:10 AM9/2/19
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Those who have no sensibility for visual language can't nachvollzogen
Magdalenian, nor nachvollzügen, let alone nachvollziegen.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 2, 2019, 3:10:35 AM9/2/19
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Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 2, 2019, 3:13:35 AM9/2/19
to
If a hypothesis can be compared to a board, a theory to a piece of furniture
cleverly and carefully assembled from several boards.

Magdalenian has reached the status of a theory that proves its worth and
usefulness in an array of hermeneutic interpretations.

More than half a century ago we read large parts of Homer's Odyssey in the
original Greek in school. I liked the language, and the dramatic arrival
at pleasant Scherie, followed by an idyllic morning. But what is all about?

A first idea came from Eberhard Zangger at the beginning of the 1990s.
He recognized the journey to Scherie as a time travel 'avant la lettre'
to an early Troy, while regarding the report of the other stories as mere
sailor's yarn.

I made the next step, interpreting all those travels as dreams, a long series
of dreams that bring Odysseus back to Troy, Troy in disguise and blended with
other places and periods of time, beginning with Polyphem, a most famous
cyclops, a one-eyed giant, Homeric symbol of Troy, his eye the acropolis
overlooking the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa that provided
protected shelter for 5,000 - 10,000 people ...

Magdalenian helped me sort out several problems, for example the Ithaca riddle
- there is absolutley no archaeological trace linking the island of that name
to Homer. Well, Magdalenian offers ITA CA, young bull ITA sky CA, under the
sky of the young Zeus bull, and ATI CA, mature bull ATI sky CA, under the sky
of the mature Zeus bull. So Ithaca would originally have been the Peoponnese
and especially the Argolis, a name surviving in a relatively small island off
the northwestern peninsula, followed by Attica on the Greek mainland.

Once again, I don't make up words as I go along but mined them all in the spring
of 2005 and mainly in the spring of 2006 with my four laws of Magdalenian.

A good part of my endeavor is to make things simple, easily understandable
for a sympathetic reader. Please don't confound simple with naive and
simplistic.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 2, 2019, 3:15:36 AM9/2/19
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Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 2, 2019, 3:18:32 AM9/2/19
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Believers in the ruling paradigm can't "nachvollogen" nachvollzügen nachvoll- ziegen a new approach, but eventually, Thomas S. Kuhn wrote, they will die
out, and the young ones have no problem trying out a promising new idea.
As a grim saying goes: the sciences advance burial by burial.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 2, 2019, 6:45:56 AM9/2/19
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Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Sep 2, 2019, 8:47:34 AM9/2/19
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On 2019-09-02 07:18:31 +0000, Franz Gnaedinger said:

>
> [ … ]

> Believers in the ruling paradigm can't "nachvollogen" nachvollzügen
> nachvoll- ziegen a new approach, but eventually, Thomas S. Kuhn wrote,
> they will die

I've rarely come across _any_ real scientists who pay the slightest
attention to Thomas Kuhn. Kuhn knew a bit about physics, but bugger all
about chemistry or biology. I'd be surprised if he had anything useful
to say about linguistics. If you want to read a book written by someone
so much in love with his own ideas that he has the word "paradigm"
about three times on every page, then The Structure of Scientific
Revolutions might be just your thing. Come to think of it you are
yourself in love with your fantasies I'm not too surprised that you
like Kuhn.

> out, and the young ones have no problem trying out a promising new idea.

What "promising new idea"? I suppose you mean your Magdalenian musings,
but can you cite just one young (or old, or middle-aged) scientist who
takes them seriously?

> As a grim saying goes: the sciences advance burial by burial.


--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 2, 2019, 9:00:32 AM9/2/19
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On Monday, September 2, 2019 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> I've rarely come across _any_ real scientists who pay the slightest
> attention to Thomas Kuhn. Kuhn knew a bit about physics, but bugger all
> about chemistry or biology. I'd be surprised if he had anything useful
> to say about linguistics.

In fact his analysis fit the rise of Chomsky very well.

Just this morning NPR reported a study from MIT (if they said where it's
published, I missed it) finding that when a senior researcher dies, there's
a spurt of new publications by junior researchers in that field.

Seems like a correlary of Kuhn.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 3, 2019, 2:27:33 AM9/3/19
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Man is the measure of everything (Protagoras). My stalker of more than
thirteen years, Panu Petteri Höglund, takes it personally. What _he_ can't
understand, nobody can. If _he_ has no sensibility for reading visual language,
nobody does. And if _he_ has little knowledge of cave art, so does everybody
else.

He deliberately ignores what I say on my explanation of how the big limestone
ring on the Goebekli Tepe inspired the reading AAR RAA NOS for the sky god
of air AAR and light RAA with a mind NOS of his own - knowledge in many fields
made the spark fly.

He snubs my hermeneutic interpretations that prove the worth and usefulness
of my alternative approach to early language. I needed decades for my
elucidation of Homer's Odyssey. He just eclipsed it by saying he could write
such a piece within a quarter of an hour. Why, then, don't we ever get
anything like it from him? Only meta-statements, as his lines above,
expurgated version of an insult ridden message he posted to an inadequate
thread, but I saw it.

(may be continued)

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 3, 2019, 2:47:14 AM9/3/19
to
Imagination is a precious tool of the mind. With imagination we combine
the fleeting impressions we get from the senses to a stable and coherent
picture of the world. Where are you just now? Maybe in your office? Then
you probably can't see your loved ones, but knowing them so well, and
the places they frequent, you can almost see them before the inner eye.

Gaël de Guichen: Archaeology is not an exact science but a speculative one,
a science of imagination.

Archaeological imagination combines isolated fragments of a remote past.
My studies in art and early literature are complemented by the study of
early mathematics that reveal a phenomenon: the ancient ones encoded
complex relations in simple numbers and telling problems from which
they can be unfolded again by playing with the numbers.

The Rhind Mathematical Papyrus from Ancient Egypt, ca. 1650 BC, is the copy
of a lost scroll from around 1850 BC. Ahmose (the copist) announces all
secrets, but then follow dry arithmetical calculations, disappointing scholars.
Where are the promised secrets? On hidden levels! Take for example RMP 32.
Ahmose divides 2 by 1 + 1/3 + 1/4 or simply 1 '3 '4 and obtains 1 '6 '12 '114
'228

Apparent level, 1) Beginners learn how to operate with unit fraction series.

Hidden level, 2) Advanced learners are given a more demanding task. Imagine
a right parallel-epiped measuring 2 by 1 '3 '4 by 1 '6 '12 '114 '228 units.
How long is the diagonal of the volume? Impossible to calculate!, exclaim
the pupils. Easily done, smiles Ahmose

1 '3 '4 plus 1 '6 '12 '114 '228

1 1 plus '3 '6 plus '114 '228

2 '2 '3 '76 units

Hidden level, 3) Divide 2 by any number A and you obtain B. Let a right
parallel-epiped measure 2 by A by B units, and the diagonal will measure
exactly A+B units. Use this theorem for calculating rectangular granaries
of the inner height 10 royal cubits or 2 units, and the capacity 500 cubic
cubits ...

Play with the numbers of the RMP and free yourself from the dogma of the
Greek invention of real mathematics. Imagination will overcome the cultural
bias, obstacle on the way to a fair history of civilization, which is the
sine qua non of a prospering global society.

of a prospering globaö

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 3, 2019, 4:29:01 AM9/3/19
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No, you may not.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 3, 2019, 8:35:46 AM9/3/19
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On Tuesday, September 3, 2019 at 2:27:33 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> Man is the measure of everything (Protagoras).

Normally rendered as "Man is the measure of all things."

Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 3, 2019, 11:05:25 AM9/3/19
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Tue, 3 Sep 2019 05:35:44 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Tuesday, September 3, 2019 at 2:27:33 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>
>> Man is the measure of everything (Protagoras).
>
>Normally rendered as "Man is the measure of all things."

No. I am.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 4, 2019, 2:33:22 AM9/4/19
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Magdalenian is a multidimensional approach. It requires not only broad
knowledge including archaeology and anthropology but also a sensibility
for visual language and the ability of recognizing symbols in cave art,
rock art, mobile art and early literature - you can't read the Odyssey
and the Bible in the way we read a modern history book.

Learning a few ancient languages is enough. You don't need to know
every IE language. On the contrary, the languages you don't know
serve as a test. In 2006 I proposed KOD for tent, hut, and found
plenty derivatives in the languages I know. Then I consulted a Sanskrit
dictionary and was pleased to find many more. This told me that
I reached a deep level of language evolution and development.

The ramifications of Magdalenian lead me on and on. I still see no end.
Sooner or later others will take over. The array of hermeneutic inter-
pretations already gained compensate largely for the troubles I got
me in.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 4, 2019, 6:15:19 AM9/4/19
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Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 4, 2019, 6:15:40 AM9/4/19
to

António Marques

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Sep 5, 2019, 6:06:01 PM9/5/19
to
Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> Magdalenian is a multidimensional approach. It requires not only broad
> knowledge including archaeology and anthropology but also a sensibility
> for visual language and the ability of recognizing symbols in cave art,
> rock art, mobile art and early literature

...and if someone somewhere has all of that, they'll still not arrive at
your specific syllables.


Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 6, 2019, 3:50:39 AM9/6/19
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On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 12:06:01 AM UTC+2, António Marques wrote:
They can use the words I mined with my four laws of Magdalenian, or they
can propose words of their own.

Peter T. Daniels

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Sep 6, 2019, 9:10:49 AM9/6/19
to
On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 3:50:39 AM UTC-4, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> They can use the words I mined with my four laws of Magdalenian, or they
> can propose words of their own.

Those are Magdalengesetze, enforced by the Magdalenpolizei? With no
exceptions, and they work under all conditions?

Hypocrite.

António Marques

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Sep 6, 2019, 9:25:26 AM9/6/19
to
A scientists only uses the results of another scientist after those same
results are successfully obtained by other scientists. Until you get
someone to be able to derive the same syllables that you do, they're
useless to anyone but yourself.
(I suppose this qualifies as meta-babble?)

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 6, 2019, 1:11:18 PM9/6/19
to
1. Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira
spoke.

2. The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the
people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

3, Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that
can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims
to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

4. Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense
logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of
conclusions must be "nachvollzogen" by other scholars.

5. You have not been able to present us with either evidence or
conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn
over people who have demanded such things.

6. On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents
have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be
"nachvollzogen".

7. Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and
comparison of the languages involved.

8. On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 7, 2019, 3:33:17 AM9/7/19
to
Sure does. Go for a test case of mine.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 7, 2019, 4:04:31 AM9/7/19
to
Greek theorein means to look at, observe. Rules or laws are found by patient
observation, or by luck, or both. I use my four laws of Magdalenian, and call
them laws, the rules of my game. The novelty is that words come in groups,
in permutation groups, and they have a possible connection to the three-letter
words of the DNA, making Magdalenian an extended phenotype. New possibilities
to consider, denizen of Boremia.