How gracefully can different languages express this English sentence?

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skpf...@gmail.com

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Jun 19, 2019, 8:31:05 PM6/19/19
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I conjecture that apart from algebraic notation , no language can express the sentence "I am twice as old as you were, when I was as old as you are" as gracefully and succinctly as English.

This was a math problem from school. if x is the first person's age, y the second person's, the algebraic statement is x = 2 {y - (x - y)} , or 3x = 4y.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Jun 20, 2019, 1:16:14 AM6/20/19
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On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 3:31:05 AM UTC+3, skpf...@gmail.com wrote:
> I conjecture that apart from algebraic notation , no language can express the sentence "I am twice as old as you were, when I was as old as you are" as gracefully and succinctly as English.
>
> This was a math problem from school. if x is the first person's age, y the second person's, the algebraic statement is x = 2 {y - (x - y)} , or 3x = 4y.

English is not particularly graceful or succinct among languages, and making a fuss of English being somehow superior shows that you have no idea of other languages.

Dingbat

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Jun 21, 2019, 3:54:59 AM6/21/19
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I'll ask a Tamil expert whether that
can be expressed gracefully (or
expressed at all) in Tamil. Meanwhile,
you try to express the following
gracefully in English:

Naasatho vidyathae bhaavo , naabhaavo
vidyathae sathaha, ubhayo rapi
drustontha sthwanayo sthathwa
darsibhihi” - Bhagavad Gita 2 - 16

“For an asath ( for a non-existing
article ), there is no existence.
For a sath ( for an existing article ),
the question of non-existence does
not arise."...

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-deeper-meaning-of-nasato-vidyate-bhavo-sloka-in-the-Bhagavad-Gita

Franz Gnaedinger

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Jun 21, 2019, 4:04:51 AM6/21/19
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On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 2:31:05 AM UTC+2, skpf...@gmail.com wrote:
> I conjecture that apart from algebraic notation , no language can express the sentence "I am twice as old as you were, when I was as old as you are" as gracefully and succinctly as English.
>
> This was a math problem from school. if x is the first person's age, y the second person's, the algebraic statement is x = 2 {y - (x - y)} , or 3x = 4y.

Ich bi zweimal so alt gsi wie Du, wo'n ich so alt gsi bin wie Du.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jun 21, 2019, 4:27:11 AM6/21/19
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"Ce qui n'est pas clair n'est pas français" (Antoine Rivaroli)



--
athel

skpf...@gmail.com

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Jun 21, 2019, 6:45:59 AM6/21/19
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google translate brings it back into English as "I'm twice as old as you, when I'm as old as you". But I'll take your word for it and it seems as compact as the English version. The English version, I think, would work without the comma. How about the German?

skpf...@gmail.com

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Jun 21, 2019, 6:57:14 AM6/21/19
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The same site gives

'
its translation: Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent there is no endurance, and of the existent there is no cessation. This seers have concluded by studying the nature of both.

'
This is just religio-metaphysical mumbo-jumbo thats graceless in the original and can probably be given many meanings even in Sanskrit ,let alone in translation.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Jun 21, 2019, 9:12:19 AM6/21/19
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I thought it was usually written gsy.

Christian Weisgerber

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Jun 21, 2019, 11:30:06 AM6/21/19
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On 2019-06-21, skpf...@gmail.com <skpf...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Ich bi zweimal so alt gsi wie Du, wo'n ich so alt gsi bin wie Du.
>
> google translate brings it back into English as "I'm twice as old as you, when I'm as old as you".

I'm surprised that Google Translate managed to handle Franz's
semi-Alemannic at all. I think it simply skipped the intransparent
"gsi" (equivalent to a hypothetical *gesein; the standard form is
"gewesen").

> The English version, I think, would work without the comma. How about the German?

German orthography sets off all dependent clauses with commas.
There is no distinction between restrictive and non-restrictive
clauses.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

Christian Weisgerber

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Jun 21, 2019, 11:30:06 AM6/21/19
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On 2019-06-21, Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

>> "I am twice as old as you were, when I was as old as you are"
>
> Ich bi zweimal so alt gsi wie Du, wo'n ich so alt gsi bin wie Du.

That seems wrong.

Ich bi zweimal so alt wie du gsi bisch, wo'n ich so alt gsi bin wie du.

Standard German:
Ich bin doppelt so alt wie du warst, als ich so alt war wie du.

The main difference being that Franz's High Alemannic apparently
has lost the preterite even for the copula and uses an analytic
past tense instead.

wugi

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Jun 21, 2019, 12:58:25 PM6/21/19
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Op 21/06/2019 om 16:45 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
> On 2019-06-21, Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
>>> "I am twice as old as you were, when I was as old as you are"
>>
>> Ich bi zweimal so alt gsi wie Du, wo'n ich so alt gsi bin wie Du.
>
> That seems wrong.
>
> Ich bi zweimal so alt wie du gsi bisch, wo'n ich so alt gsi bin wie du.

Meseemed that to ;)

> Standard German:
> Ich bin doppelt so alt wie du warst, als ich so alt war wie du.

Would the following extra condens make sense to the forum? It seems it
would to me:

I am twice as old [,] as you when I was as old as you.

Ich bin doppelt so alt [,] wie du [](!) als ich so alt war wie du.

Ik ben twee keer zo oud [,] als jij toen ik zo oud was als jij.

In Romance it looks even kinda natural, with "de":

Tengo dos veces tu edad de cuando tenía yo tu edad.

J'ai deux fois ton âge de lorsque j'avais ton âge.

--
guido wugi

wugi

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Jun 21, 2019, 1:00:15 PM6/21/19
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Op 21/06/2019 om 18:59 schreef wugi:

> Meseemed that to ;)

Ooops, two, er, too.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Jun 21, 2019, 2:04:17 PM6/21/19
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On 2019-06-21 16:59:32 +0000, wugi said:

>
> [ … ]

> In Romance it looks even kinda natural, with "de":
>
> Tengo dos veces tu edad de cuando tenía yo tu edad.
>
> J'ai deux fois ton âge de lorsque j'avais ton âge.

Both of those look to me at least natural as the English (and no longer).

--
athel

Arnaud Fournet

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Jun 21, 2019, 2:36:36 PM6/21/19
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"J'ai deux fois l'âge que j'avais à ton âge" makes sense.
The other "sentence" is charabia.

Dingbat

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Jun 21, 2019, 7:25:18 PM6/21/19
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On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 6:01:05 AM UTC+5:30, skpf...@gmail.com wrote:
> I conjecture that apart from algebraic notation , no language can express the sentence "I am twice as old as you were, when I was as old as you are" as gracefully and succinctly as English.
>
> This was a math problem from school. if x is the first person's age, y the second person's, the algebraic statement is x = 2 {y - (x - y)} , or 3x = 4y.

In Tamil:
Enakku unadu indRaya vayadu irundappo andRaiya un vayadin irandu madangu indRaiya en vayadu.

"I am twice as old as you were, when I was as old as you are"
looks shorter.

António Marques

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Jun 21, 2019, 7:58:27 PM6/21/19
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wugi <br...@brol.be> wrote:
> Op 21/06/2019 om 16:45 schreef Christian Weisgerber:
>> On 2019-06-21, Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>>
>>>> "I am twice as old as you were, when I was as old as you are"
>>>
>>> Ich bi zweimal so alt gsi wie Du, wo'n ich so alt gsi bin wie Du.
>>
>> That seems wrong.
>>
>> Ich bi zweimal so alt wie du gsi bisch, wo'n ich so alt gsi bin wie du.
>
> Meseemed that to ;)
>
>> Standard German:
>> Ich bin doppelt so alt wie du warst, als ich so alt war wie du.
>
> Would the following extra condens make sense to the forum? It seems it
> would to me:
>
> I am twice as old [,] as you when I was as old as you.
>
> Ich bin doppelt so alt [,] wie du [](!)

warst?

> als ich so alt war wie du.
>
> Ik ben twee keer zo oud [,] als jij toen ik zo oud was als jij.
>
> In Romance it looks even kinda natural, with "de":
>
> Tengo dos veces tu edad de cuando tenía yo tu edad.
>
> J'ai deux fois ton âge de lorsque j'avais ton âge.
>

'[Eu] tenho o dobro da idade que [tu] tinhas quando eu tinha a idade que
tens.'

I'm not sure your romance versions are grammatical.


Franz Gnaedinger

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Jun 22, 2019, 3:28:29 AM6/22/19
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Google translate, which I consider the best of the available translating
tools, based on deep learning, can't recognize bi(n) 'am' and gsi bi 'have
been'. By the way, gsi 'was, have or has been' might be given in the form
of gsy for speakers of English, but our writers in dialect give it as gsi
or gsii. Gewesen sein haben gewollt zu wären, jawoll.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Jun 22, 2019, 6:06:41 AM6/22/19
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On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 10:28:29 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>
> Google translate, which I consider the best of the available translating
> tools

I can only heartily laugh at this.

Peter T. Daniels

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Jun 22, 2019, 8:10:34 AM6/22/19
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You must've missed the next few words, "based on deep learning," and
added your comment too soon.

Arnaud Fournet

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Jun 22, 2019, 3:20:33 PM6/22/19
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google.translate has all the flaws of English, the lack of distinction between thou (sg) and you (pl) in the first place.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 22, 2019, 3:42:15 PM6/22/19
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Sat, 22 Jun 2019 03:06:40 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
<craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:
Why? Is DeepL way better, you think? It's more limited where the
choice of languages are is concerned.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

António Marques

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Jun 22, 2019, 6:51:08 PM6/22/19
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Icredible as it may seem, in my experience Bing is better.

GT does behave as if any transaction uses English as an intermediate step.


Christian Weisgerber

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Jun 22, 2019, 8:30:07 PM6/22/19
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On 2019-06-22, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:

>>>> Google translate, which I consider the best of the available translating
>>>> tools
>>
>> Why? Is DeepL way better, you think? It's more limited where the
>> choice of languages are is concerned.
>
> Icredible as it may seem, in my experience Bing is better.

Better than Google Translate or better than DeepL?

António Marques

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Jun 22, 2019, 8:40:08 PM6/22/19
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Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> On 2019-06-22, António Marques <anton...@sapo.pt> wrote:
>
>>>>> Google translate, which I consider the best of the available translating
>>>>> tools
>>>
>>> Why? Is DeepL way better, you think? It's more limited where the
>>> choice of languages are is concerned.
>>
>> Icredible as it may seem, in my experience Bing is better.
>
> Better than Google Translate or better than DeepL?
>

I know litL about deepL.

Message has been deleted

skpf...@gmail.com

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Jun 23, 2019, 1:39:58 PM6/23/19
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By changing "I am twice..." to "you were half ..." it can be expressed fairly gracefully in Tamil (and it is shorter than the English version - which is surprising).

என் வயது உன் இன்றைய வயதாக இருந்தபோது உன் வயது என் இன்றைய வயதின் பாதியாக இருந்தது

En vayadu un indraya vayadaga irundapodu un vayadu en inraiya vayadin paadhiyaga irundadu

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 23, 2019, 2:20:34 PM6/23/19
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Sat, 22 Jun 2019 22:51:06 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
DeepL too, as I demonstrated:
https://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/nl03.htm
(In Dutch, about German, English and Dutch.)

What is the URL of Bing Translator? I didn't even know Microsoft had
one.

António Marques

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Jun 23, 2019, 6:11:10 PM6/23/19
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Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sat, 22 Jun 2019 22:51:06 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>
>> Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>> Sat, 22 Jun 2019 03:06:40 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
>>> <craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 10:28:29 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Google translate, which I consider the best of the available translating
>>>>> tools
>>>>
>>>> I can only heartily laugh at this.
>>>
>>> Why? Is DeepL way better, you think? It's more limited where the
>>> choice of languages are is concerned.
>>
>> Icredible as it may seem, in my experience Bing is better.
>>
>> GT does behave as if any transaction uses English as an intermediate step.
>
> DeepL too, as I demonstrated:
> https://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/nl03.htm
> (In Dutch, about German, English and Dutch.)
>
> What is the URL of Bing Translator? I didn't even know Microsoft had
> one.
>

https://www.bing.com/translator

MS is not necessarily good, but the way people these days don't see past
google is worrying.
Google is not (was never) the state of the art, you know. They're actually
behind in a lot of areas.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Jun 24, 2019, 2:33:02 AM6/24/19
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> Google translate, which I consider the best of the available translating
> tools, based on deep learning, can't recognize bi(n) 'am' and gsi bi 'have
> been'. By the way, gsi 'was, have or has been' might be given in the form
> of gsy for speakers of English, but our writers in dialect give it as gsi
> or gsii. Gewesen sein haben gewollt zu wären, jawoll.

Google translate is great, it can make sense where there is no sense at all,
for example of my utter nonsense coda

Gewesen sein haben gewollt zu wären, jawoll

which Google translate turns into

It was intended to have been, yeah

By the way, our dialects have many shadings, gsi gsii maybe also gsy, and even
Ech ben gsee.

Arnaud Fournet

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Jun 24, 2019, 3:23:27 AM6/24/19
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yes, doubtless so. English is the pivotal language of GT.

Arnaud Fournet

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Jun 24, 2019, 3:28:39 AM6/24/19
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Le lundi 24 juin 2019 08:33:02 UTC+2, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > Google translate, which I consider the best of the available translating
> > tools, based on deep learning, can't recognize bi(n) 'am' and gsi bi 'have
> > been'. By the way, gsi 'was, have or has been' might be given in the form
> > of gsy for speakers of English, but our writers in dialect give it as gsi
> > or gsii. Gewesen sein haben gewollt zu wären, jawoll.
>
> Google translate is great, it can make sense where there is no sense at all,
> for example of my utter nonsense coda
>
> Gewesen sein haben gewollt zu wären, jawoll

Maybe, you don't understand what you write ...
Seems so, some times ...

>
> which Google translate turns into
>
> It was intended to have been, yeah

Bing translates as: Have been wanted, yes

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 24, 2019, 12:28:10 PM6/24/19
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Sun, 23 Jun 2019 22:11:08 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:

>https://www.bing.com/translator
>
>MS is not necessarily good, but the way people these days don't see past
>google is worrying.
>Google is not (was never) the state of the art, you know. They're actually
>behind in a lot of areas.

DeepL was way better for a while, then GT stepped up.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jun 24, 2019, 12:36:05 PM6/24/19
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Sun, 23 Jun 2019 22:11:08 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>https://www.bing.com/translator

Tried it with a random article of mine:
https://rudhar.com/economi/vlsuitnl.htm . Bing's not good. Sometimes
ungrammatical, often misses the point, translate the reverse of the
title.

DeepL is better. Also not good enough, but better.

GT wins in this case. Almost perfect.

António Marques

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Jun 24, 2019, 1:42:06 PM6/24/19
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One swallow does not a Spring make.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Jun 25, 2019, 3:02:07 AM6/25/19
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On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 9:28:39 AM UTC+2, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Maybe, you don't understand what you write ...
> Seems so, some times ...
>
> Bing translates as: Have been wanted, yes
>
I was making fun of the German langwitch, in the wake of Mark Twain. My
coda meant absolutely nothing, but deep learning is based on meaningful
phrases, therefore it chooses the version that seems to come close.

Dingbat

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Jun 25, 2019, 8:46:40 AM6/25/19
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By changing "I am twice..." to "you were half ..." it can be expressed fairly gracefully in Tamil (and it is shorter than the English version - which is surprising).

என் வயது உன் இன்றைய வயதாக இருந்தபோது உன் வயது என் இன்றைய வயதின் பாதியாக இருந்தது

Wonderful improvement! So, you no
longer believe that no other
language can express it as
gracefully as English?

Ruud Harmsen

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Apr 5, 2020, 12:32:45 PM4/5/20
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On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:20:34 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sat, 22 Jun 2019 22:51:06 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <an..@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>
> >Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> Sat, 22 Jun 2019 03:06:40 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
> >> <cr..@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >>
> >>> On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 10:28:29 AM UTC+3, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Google translate, which I consider the best of the available translating
> >>>> tools
> >>>
> >>> I can only heartily laugh at this.
> >>
> >> Why? Is DeepL way better, you think? It's more limited where the
> >> choice of languages are is concerned.
> >
> >Icredible as it may seem, in my experience Bing is better.
> >
> >GT does behave as if any transaction uses English as an intermediate step.
>
> DeepL too, as I demonstrated:
> https://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/nl03.htm
> (In Dutch, about German, English and Dutch.)
>
> What is the URL of Bing Translator? I didn't even know Microsoft had
> one.

Google finally fixed the bug!:
https://rudhar.com/lingtics/machtrns/en07.htm
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