"Horaltic"--one for Donna's collection?
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
"horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
(both New World and Old World) and storks. However, "horaltic" is not
in the NSOED or in the dictionaries checked by dictionary.com and
onelook.com, and there are no hits on it at Google Scholar, Google
Books, or Amazon.
Is "horaltic" a mumpsimus for "heraldic"? Or is "heraldic
pose" (several hits relevant to vultures) folk-etymology for
"horaltic"? (A similar example from ornithology would be the now-
standard bird name "whydah" from "widow" pronounced /'wId@/; both
whydahs and widowbirds have very long black plumes.)
If "horaltic" is correct, what's its origin? Any comments on the
speculation that it refers to the Egyptian falcon-god, Horus?
http://thegreenbelt.blogspot.com/2006/12/wake-of-vultures.html
(Thanks to Wikipedia user Shyamal for finding that.)
And if "horaltic" is wrong, it's a candidate for Donna Richoux's
collection of words for which the wrong version outnumbers the right
on Google (though the numbers are very small). But I don't know the
rules--are you allowed to add other terms to the search to limit the
context?
"horaltic pose" vulture: 145
"heraldic pose" vulture: 15
And for a possible new record,
"horaltic pose" "turkey vulture": 152
"heraldic pose" "turkey vulture": 1
One reason that I'm posting this to sci.lang as well as a.u.e. is in
case any sci.langer knows someone who's studying the spread of
incorrect terms and wants an example from science.
Finally, who here wants to encourage whichever one is wrong?
--
Jerry Friedman can guess the answers to all his questions but would
like more learned opinions.
Pat Durkin
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1194234453.4...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
that some common authority (correctly or not) was used as a source by
all those vulture watchers.
Still, the word rings in my mind as a reference to prayer, but the only
similar word that comes to mind is "orant", which does describe a
spread-armed position of prayer. I see some worshipers adopt this
position in Catholic gatherings though in this modern usage, the hands
don't often rise above the shoulder.
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/bldefsorans.htm
Then I recalled that the times I have seen perching anhingas or
cormorants, they have the same position. But the word never appears in
the descriptions of their posture. 'Tis a puzzlement.
Peter T. Daniels
<jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> At a number of Web sites on birds, you can see references to the
> "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
> (both New World and Old World) and storks. However, "horaltic" is not
> in the NSOED or in the dictionaries checked by dictionary.com and
> onelook.com, and there are no hits on it at Google Scholar, Google
> Books, or Amazon.
>
> Is "horaltic" a mumpsimus for "heraldic"? Or is "heraldic
> pose" (several hits relevant to vultures) folk-etymology for
> "horaltic"? (A similar example from ornithology would be the now-
> standard bird name "whydah" from "widow" pronounced /'wId@/; both
> whydahs and widowbirds have very long black plumes.)
>
> If "horaltic" is correct, what's its origin? Any comments on the
> (Thanks to Wikipedia user Shyamal for finding that.)
>
> And if "horaltic" is wrong, it's a candidate for Donna Richoux's
> collection of words for which the wrong version outnumbers the right
> on Google (though the numbers are very small). But I don't know the
> rules--are you allowed to add other terms to the search to limit the
> context?
>
> "horaltic pose" vulture: 145
> "heraldic pose" vulture: 15
>
> And for a possible new record,
> "horaltic pose" "turkey vulture": 152
> "heraldic pose" "turkey vulture": 1
>
> One reason that I'm posting this to sci.lang as well as a.u.e. is in
> case any sci.langer knows someone who's studying the spread of
> incorrect terms and wants an example from science.
Did you try looking in a dictionary of ornithology?
Paul J Kriha
> "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
I don't think "heraldic pose" is any specific pose. Some of the poses are
rampant (i.e. on one leg),
salient (springing from two legs),
passant (standing on three legs, front one raised),
statant (on four legs),
sejant (seated),
couchant (lying on all fours with head up, like a sphinx),
dormant (sleeping).
All these are various heraldic poses.
Birds' heraldic poses are
erect (similar to rampant, standing upright facing right with both wings on left side)
displayed ('spread-eagled')
Heads look towards the right, unless they are
guardant (looking out at the viewer).
There are more than quarter million pages with correctly spelled words
"heraldic" and "pose", while there are some 194 pages with "horaltic"
and "pose".
I would say, the "horaltic" is an obvious misspelling. The cluster
you've identified around "horaltic pose" and "turkey vulture" of
152 pages is most probably caused by one poster, or a few
posters who have copied misspelled text from each other.
BTW, "horal" is a less common English word for HOURLY.
It's from the late (18C) Latin "horalis".
A nice red herring I'd say.
pjk
R H Draney
>
><jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1194234453.4...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> At a number of Web sites on birds, you can see references to the
>> "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
>
>"heraldic" and "pose", while there are some 194 pages with "horaltic"
>and "pose".
>
>I would say, the "horaltic" is an obvious misspelling. The cluster
>you've identified around "horaltic pose" and "turkey vulture" of
>152 pages is most probably caused by one poster, or a few
>posters who have copied misspelled text from each other.
Thought it might be related to, or a misspelling of a word related to,
"hortative", but that doesn't seem to lead anywhere...the word "hortalic" seems
to mean something in Portuguese but I can't decipher enough of the surrounding
references to get a feel for it....r
--
"He come in the night when one sleep on a bed.
With a hand he have the basket and foods."
- David Sedaris explains the Easter rabbit
Christopher Ingham
> "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
> (both New World and Old World) and storks. However, "horaltic" is not
> in the NSOED or in the dictionaries checked by dictionary.com and
> onelook.com, and there are no hits on it at Google Scholar, Google
> Books, or Amazon.
>
> Is "horaltic" a mumpsimus for "heraldic"? Or is "heraldic
> pose" (several hits relevant to vultures) folk-etymology for
> "horaltic"? (A similar example from ornithology would be the now-
> standard bird name "whydah" from "widow" pronounced /'wId@/; both
> whydahs and widowbirds have very long black plumes.)
>
> If "horaltic" is correct, what's its origin? Any comments on the
> speculation that it refers to the Egyptian falcon-god, Horus?
FWIW, I would speculate that "horaltic" makes reference to a
specific type of pose (spread-eagle) of Horus as depicted in
ancient Egyptian art. The falcon god Horus (fr. Gk._H ros_,
fr. Egypt. _Hor_ [_ H r_]) in the guise, for example, of "Horus of
Behdet" is shown as a winged disk, and often appears as
such on the upper borders and lunettes of stelae and other
pictorial compositions. An epithet of Horus the falcon/disk is
"Dappled of Plumage." [E. S. Meltzer, in_The Oxford Ency-
clopedia of Ancient Egypt_(2001), 2.120.]
Two other elements, I further suppose, form a compound suffix:
"alti-," normally a prefix, meaning "high" (fr. L._altus_), and
"-ic," forming an adjective with the sense "of the nature of"
and "pertaining to." [_OED_, 2nd ed.] Many connotations of
"high" are conveyed by_altus_: "a high place or position
(usually in the sky)," "lofty," "exalted," "having a specific
extension upwards," "proud or haughty," etc. [_OLD_(1996)];
one of these meanings may be meant in the "-alti-" component
of "horaltic" to designate specifically the spread-winged form
of Horus.
Christopher Ingham
Odysseus
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1194234453.4...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> > At a number of Web sites on birds, you can see references to the
> > "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
>
> I don't think "heraldic pose" is any specific pose. Some of the poses are
> rampant (i.e. on one leg),
> salient (springing from two legs),
> passant (standing on three legs, front one raised),
> statant (on four legs),
> sejant (seated),
> couchant (lying on all fours with head up, like a sphinx),
> dormant (sleeping).
> All these are various heraldic poses.
>
> Birds' heraldic poses are
> erect (similar to rampant, standing upright facing right with both wings on
> left side)
> displayed ('spread-eagled')
With these variations listed in Parker's _Glossary_: ~ erect, ~
inverted, ~ with double head, ~ without wings [!], ~ in majesty [with
crown & sceptre], ~ surgerant [soaring].
> Heads look towards the right,
Towards the dexter, that is, i.e. to the viewer's left.
> unless they are
> guardant (looking out at the viewer).
Also:
close [wings held against the body], ~ embowed, ~ preying, ~ in full
aspect, ~ aspectant, or at gaze, ~ in trian aspect [half profile], and ~
in trian aspect at gaze
expansed, ~ elevated, ~ addorsed, ~ disclosed
regardant
recursant
perched
standing
sitting
feeding
pecking
preying or trussing
pruning [preening?] its wings
rising
volant
singing
croaking (of ravens)
pendant when dead and hanging.
--
Odysseus
John Holmes
>
> BTW, "horal" is a less common English word for HOURLY.
> It's from the late (18C) Latin "horalis".
I have seen a cuckoo that had a horal tic. Perhaps the Addams Family had
a vulture like that.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Mike Lyle
> Paul J Kriha filted:
>>
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1194234453.4...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>> At a number of Web sites on birds, you can see references to the
>>> "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by
>>> vultures
>>
>> There are more than quarter million pages with correctly spelled
>> words "heraldic" and "pose", while there are some 194 pages with
>> "horaltic" and "pose".
>>
>> I would say, the "horaltic" is an obvious misspelling. The cluster
>> you've identified around "horaltic pose" and "turkey vulture" of
>> 152 pages is most probably caused by one poster, or a few
>> posters who have copied misspelled text from each other.
>
> Thought it might be related to, or a misspelling of a word related to,
> "hortative", but that doesn't seem to lead anywhere...the word
> "hortalic" seems to mean something in Portuguese but I can't decipher
> enough of the surrounding references to get a feel for it....r
I reckon "horaltic" must be an heraldic mumpsimus. I know zilchao
seriosamenticao de Portuguesa, but /hortalic-/ may be the Port
equivalent of Castilian /hortaliza/, "vegetable". But I guess you've
thought of that already.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
António Marques
> Paul J Kriha filted:
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1194234453.4...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>> At a number of Web sites on birds, you can see references to the
>>> "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
>> There are more than quarter million pages with correctly spelled words
>> "heraldic" and "pose", while there are some 194 pages with "horaltic"
>> and "pose".
>>
>> I would say, the "horaltic" is an obvious misspelling. The cluster
>> you've identified around "horaltic pose" and "turkey vulture" of
>> 152 pages is most probably caused by one poster, or a few
>> posters who have copied misspelled text from each other.
>
> Thought it might be related to, or a misspelling of a word related to,
> "hortative", but that doesn't seem to lead anywhere...the word "hortalic" seems
> to mean something in Portuguese but I can't decipher enough of the surrounding
> references to get a feel for it....r
_Hortaliça_ [ort@'lis@] 'vegetable'. Nothing to do, I suppose.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
Apparently I did, but not the modern one. The Google Book Search
included some 19th-century versions of Montagu's _Ornithological
Dictionary of British Birds_ (with various titles). Its 20th-century
successors--the 1985 version is what I called "the modern one"--don't
seem to be available on the Web, though, and asking people seems more
likely to bear fruit than looking for a copy of an out-of-print
British reference work--though somewhat to my surprise, there's one in
a library only an hour and a half from my home.
--
Jerry Friedman
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1194234453.4...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > At a number of Web sites on birds, you can see references to the
> > "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
>
> I don't think "heraldic pose" is any specific pose.
In general, no, but all the references to the "horaltic pose" that
I've seen are to the "displayed" pose that you mention below.
> Some of the poses are
> rampant (i.e. on one leg),
> salient (springing from two legs),
> passant (standing on three legs, front one raised),
> statant (on four legs),
> sejant (seated),
> couchant (lying on all fours with head up, like a sphinx),
> dormant (sleeping).
> All these are various heraldic poses.
>
> Birds' heraldic poses are
> erect (similar to rampant, standing upright facing right with both wings on left side)
> displayed ('spread-eagled')
> Heads look towards the right, unless they are
> guardant (looking out at the viewer).
>
> There are more than quarter million pages with correctly spelled words
> "heraldic" and "pose", while there are some 194 pages with "horaltic"
> and "pose".
>
> I would say, the "horaltic" is an obvious misspelling. The cluster
> you've identified around "horaltic pose" and "turkey vulture" of
> 152 pages is most probably caused by one poster, or a few
> posters who have copied misspelled text from each other.
I'm inclined to agree. The main vectors seem to be the Turkey Vulture
Society and Wikipedia (though the word was removed from Wikipedia
yesterday, after I questioned it).
> BTW, "horal" is a less common English word for HOURLY.
> It's from the late (18C) Latin "horalis".
> A nice red herring I'd say.
...
Neither flesh nor fowl, anyway.
--
Jerry Friedman, currently sejant guardant proper.
Peter T. Daniels
Very well; did you try asking at an ornithology newsgroup?
John Swindle
<paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
><jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1194234453.4...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> At a number of Web sites on birds, you can see references to the
>> "horaltic pose", which is the "spread-eagle" pose adopted by vultures
>
>I don't think "heraldic pose" is any specific pose. . . .
>
>I would say, the "horaltic" is an obvious misspelling. . . .
> . . .
And maybe: images of birds in hieratic poses, misheard as "heraldic
poses," misconstrued as some particular "horaltic pose."
Christopher Ingham
But the word is not "horal" or "horalic," it is "horaltic";
"-altic" would appear to be a multiple suffix attached to
the root "hor," which has nothing to do with "hourly."
You should scrutinize all the elements of the word when
you attempt to analyze it.
Christopher Ingham
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
No, I don't know of one. The closest thing is rec.birds, and as you
reminded me that someone there had a book that helped me with another
obscure fact, I just asked there.
My best hope now is ORNITH-L, and after the imminent failure of my
attempt to get a subscriber to ask, I'll subscribe tomorrow and ask as
a newbie.
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul J Kriha
news:1194286972....@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Well, that's telling too.
The fact that the word is unknown in heraldry ought to be a clincher.
> > BTW, "horal" is a less common English word for HOURLY.
> > It's from the late (18C) Latin "horalis".
> > A nice red herring I'd say.
> ...
>
> Neither flesh nor fowl, anyway.
> Jerry Friedman, currently sejant guardant proper.
pjk
soon to be couchant, then displayed dormant.
Paul J Kriha
news:1194291268.7...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Sorry Christopher, believe me I did.
"Horal" was the closest word I found in my CED and it was obviously irrelevant.
That's why I said it was a red herring.
Should I have included a smiley as well?
pjk
> Christopher Ingham
>