Multatuli

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Ruud Harmsen

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Sep 27, 2019, 10:47:37 AM9/27/19
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Franz Gnaedinger

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Oct 2, 2019, 3:12:29 AM10/2/19
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Do you have a song written in Interlingua? a song by you or someone else?

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Oct 2, 2019, 3:42:07 AM10/2/19
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- Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira
spoke.

- The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the
people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

- Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that
can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims
to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

- Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense
logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of
conclusions must be "nachvollzogen" by other scholars.

- You have not been able to present us with either evidence or
conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn
over people who have demanded such things.

- On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents
have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be
"nachvollzogen".

- Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and
comparison of the languages involved.

- On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches
of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic
language.You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have
learnt languages unknown to you.

- Instead of following the common rules of scientific method, you suggest that other people should observe the rules you have devised by yourself.

- Thus and therefore, your Magdalenian fails on the level of method and cannot be taken seriously as science or scholarship.

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 2, 2019, 4:32:52 AM10/2/19
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>On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 4:47:37 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> https://rudhar.com/writings/Multatuli/Ideen/III/541.htm
>> Multatuli in interlingua.

Wed, 2 Oct 2019 00:12:27 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>Do you have a song written in Interlingua? a song by you or someone else?

http://poemasepensatas.blogspot.com/
A vices ille tamben canta. (Ille = Marcus Scriptor, alias Kenneth
Platter.)

http://www.lulu.com/shop/thomas-breinstrup-red/cantario-de-interlingua/paperback/product-22810096.html

https://rudhar.com/musica/cfintlng/musinfor.htm

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Oct 2, 2019, 6:23:00 AM10/2/19
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I don't think you should take Gnaedinger's question seriously. He is the kind of person who can only appreciate English-language noise "music" and who is otherwise culturally analphabetic.

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 2, 2019, 7:22:39 AM10/2/19
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>On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 11:32:52 AM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 4:47:37 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> https://rudhar.com/writings/Multatuli/Ideen/III/541.htm
>> >> Multatuli in interlingua.
>>
>> Wed, 2 Oct 2019 00:12:27 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
>> <fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
>> >Do you have a song written in Interlingua? a song by you or someone else?
>>
>> http://poemasepensatas.blogspot.com/
>> A vices ille tamben canta. (Ille = Marcus Scriptor, alias Kenneth
>> Platter.)
>>
>> http://www.lulu.com/shop/thomas-breinstrup-red/cantario-de-interlingua/paperback/product-22810096.html
>>
>> https://rudhar.com/musica/cfintlng/musinfor.htm

Wed, 2 Oct 2019 03:22:58 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
<craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>I don't think you should take Gnaedinger's question seriously.

Sed io prefere facer lo nonobstante. Questiones seriose merita
responsas seriose.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Oct 3, 2019, 3:11:57 AM10/3/19
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On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 10:32:52 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> http://poemasepensatas.blogspot.com/
> A vices ille tamben canta. (Ille = Marcus Scriptor, alias Kenneth
> Platter.)
>
> http://www.lulu.com/shop/thomas-breinstrup-red/cantario-de-interlingua/paperback/product-22810096.html
>
> https://rudhar.com/musica/cfintlng/musinfor.htm
>

Thank you for the links. Those lyrics sound much better than the ones in
Esperanto. But still, imagine that Interlingua were the official language
of a continent - by and by the language would be polished down until it
were a language of its own, posing again learning problems. Interlingua
is far less stilty than Esperanto, but still to a certain degree. And it
leaves out Chinese and African languages, for example.

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 3, 2019, 4:50:39 AM10/3/19
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Thu, 3 Oct 2019 00:11:55 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 10:32:52 AM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>> http://poemasepensatas.blogspot.com/
>> A vices ille tamben canta. (Ille = Marcus Scriptor, alias Kenneth
>> Platter.)
>>
>> http://www.lulu.com/shop/thomas-breinstrup-red/cantario-de-interlingua/paperback/product-22810096.html
>>
>> https://rudhar.com/musica/cfintlng/musinfor.htm
>>
>
>Thank you for the links. Those lyrics sound much better than the ones in
>Esperanto. But still, imagine that Interlingua were the official language
>of a continent

It was never intended as such.

>- by and by the language would be polished down until it
>were a language of its own, posing again learning problems. Interlingua
>is far less stilty than Esperanto, but still to a certain degree. And it
>leaves out Chinese and African languages, for example.

True.

Attempts have been made to create auxiliary languages that take their
material from all parts of the world and many language families. But
the result is something that isn't readily understandable to anyone.
With Interlingua on the other hand, billions have a fair chance.

But admittedly, that recognisability relies on the realities of a
dominant Roman-Hellinistic culture basis, plus colonialism. But that
is true of English or Spanish as world languages just the same.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Oct 3, 2019, 5:24:29 AM10/3/19
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Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Oct 4, 2019, 7:40:30 AM10/4/19
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On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 2:22:39 PM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 11:32:52 AM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 4:47:37 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >> https://rudhar.com/writings/Multatuli/Ideen/III/541.htm
> >> >> Multatuli in interlingua.
> >>
> >> Wed, 2 Oct 2019 00:12:27 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
> >> <fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:
> >> >Do you have a song written in Interlingua? a song by you or someone else?
> >>
> >> http://poemasepensatas.blogspot.com/
> >> A vices ille tamben canta. (Ille = Marcus Scriptor, alias Kenneth
> >> Platter.)
> >>
> >> http://www.lulu.com/shop/thomas-breinstrup-red/cantario-de-interlingua/paperback/product-22810096.html
> >>
> >> https://rudhar.com/musica/cfintlng/musinfor.htm
>
> Wed, 2 Oct 2019 03:22:58 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
> <craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >I don't think you should take Gnaedinger's question seriously.
>
> Sed io prefere facer lo nonobstante. Questiones seriose merita
> responsas seriose.

He is only going to tell you how ridiculous the language sounds and how bad the music is. He cannot appreciate anybody else's cultural pursuits. If he could, even his Magdalenian obsession would be more tolerable. However, he is not just a crackpot but also an asshole.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Oct 5, 2019, 3:24:19 AM10/5/19
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On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:40:30 PM UTC+2, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>
> He is only going to tell you how ridiculous the language sounds and how bad the music is. He cannot appreciate anybody else's cultural pursuits. If he could, even his Magdalenian obsession would be more tolerable. However, he is not just a crackpot but also an asshole.

A new word for the dictionary of Interlingua: hölmörön

Finish hölmö = English moron

hölmö + moron = hölmörön

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Oct 5, 2019, 3:35:32 AM10/5/19
to
- Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira
spoke.

- The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the
people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

- Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that
can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims
to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

- Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense
logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of
conclusions must be "nachvollzogen" by other scholars.

- You have not been able to present us with either evidence or
conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn
over people who have demanded such things.

- On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents
have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be
"nachvollzogen".

- Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and
comparison of the languages involved.

- On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches
of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic
language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 5, 2019, 11:07:55 AM10/5/19
to
Sat, 5 Oct 2019 00:24:17 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger
<fr...@bluemail.ch> scribeva:

>On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:40:30 PM UTC+2, M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>>
>> He is only going to tell you how ridiculous the language sounds and how bad the music is. He cannot appreciate anybody else's cultural pursuits. If he could, even his Magdalenian obsession would be more tolerable. However, he is not just a crackpot but also an asshole.
>
>A new word for the dictionary of Interlingua: hölmörön
>
> Finish hölmö = English moron
>
> hölmö + moron = hölmörön

Not enough. You don't understand the method of extraction for
Interlingua. What is needed is 3 out of 4 languages.

António Marques

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Oct 5, 2019, 1:02:42 PM10/5/19
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Where do they get 'tamen' from?

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 5, 2019, 2:59:49 PM10/5/19
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Sat, 5 Oct 2019 17:02:40 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
Esperanto. But don't tell anyone.

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 5, 2019, 3:08:40 PM10/5/19
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>>> Not enough. You don't understand the method of extraction for
>>> Interlingua. What is needed is 3 out of 4 languages.
>>
>>Where do they get 'tamen' from?
>
>Esperanto. But don't tell anyone.

More seriously: the 3 out of 4 method often doesn't work for function
words a.k.a. particulas. Those were filled in mostly from Latin, but
also from other constructed languages (in a failed attempt to make
adherents feel familiar so they would all defect to the Interlingua
camp), like Occidental and Esperanto, which often have them from Latin
anyway. Marked with [ ] in the Interlingua-English dictionary. An
example of how to extract these from the dictionary using regular
expression is in the manual:
https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/cgi-grep/modempia.htm
https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/cgi-grep/modempia.htm#ParQuad

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 5, 2019, 3:15:25 PM10/5/19
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Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:08:38 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:
>https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/cgi-grep/modempia.htm#ParQuad

Procul harem: Interlingua for: far away lovers, remote women supply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLzbr1YNXZw

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 5, 2019, 3:16:30 PM10/5/19
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Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:08:38 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
>scribeva:
>>https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/cgi-grep/modempia.htm#ParQuad

<https://rudhar.com/cgi-bin/cgi-grep.cgi?cerca=(^\[[a-z].%2B\])|(\[[^%20-\.]%2B\])&iaen=1>

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 5, 2019, 3:17:11 PM10/5/19
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><https://rudhar.com/cgi-bin/cgi-grep.cgi?cerca=(^\[[a-z].%2B\])|(\[[^%20-\.]%2B\])&iaen=1>

<https://rudhar.com/ianl?cerca=(^\[[a-z].%2B\])|(\[[^%20-\.]%2B\])&iaen=1>

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 5, 2019, 3:18:50 PM10/5/19
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Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:17:10 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>><https://rudhar.com/cgi-bin/cgi-grep.cgi?cerca=(^\[[a-z].%2B\])|(\[[^%20-\.]%2B\])&iaen=1>
>
><https://rudhar.com/ianl?cerca=(^\[[a-z].%2B\])|(\[[^%20-\.]%2B\])&iaen=1>

No,
<https://rudhar.com/nlia?cerca=(^\[[a-z].%2B\])|(\[[^%20-\.]%2B\])&iaen=1>

António Marques

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Oct 5, 2019, 3:51:04 PM10/5/19
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Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>> Not enough. You don't understand the method of extraction for
>>>> Interlingua. What is needed is 3 out of 4 languages.
>>>
>>> Where do they get 'tamen' from?
>>
>> Esperanto. But don't tell anyone.

A lousy choice, it's too similar to _tamben_.


> More seriously: the 3 out of 4 method often doesn't work for function
> words a.k.a. particulas.

Doesn't it, or is it more difficult to apply? Sometimes people give up too
easily. Is IL subject to corrections?



Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 6, 2019, 2:57:35 AM10/6/19
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Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:51:02 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:

>Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>>>>> Not enough. You don't understand the method of extraction for
>>>>> Interlingua. What is needed is 3 out of 4 languages.
>>>>
>>>> Where do they get 'tamen' from?
>>>
>>> Esperanto. But don't tell anyone.
>
>A lousy choice, it's too similar to _tamben_.

Not for me. I seriously never thought of that connection. I learnt
'tamen' from Esperanto in 1972 or so, as the reflex of Dutch toch, and
never forgot it since. I probably encountered 'también' and 'tambem'
only later, and didn't confuse them at all.

Re-encountering 'tamen', and also 'sed' in Interlingua in 2003 or 2013
was like meeting old friends. Interlingua, by the way, also has
'nonobstante' and 'totevia' for 'tamen'; and anque, alsi, etiam,
equalmente for tamben.

>> More seriously: the 3 out of 4 method often doesn't work for function
>> words a.k.a. particulas.
>
>Doesn't it, or is it more difficult to apply? Sometimes people give up too
>easily. Is IL subject to corrections?
>
>

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 6, 2019, 3:01:21 AM10/6/19
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Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:51:02 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
<anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
The full method, originally in English although a later Interlangua
translation exists, is here: http://www.interlingua.com/ied/intro .

See also http://www.interlingua.com/introduction_ied and
https://web.archive.org/web/20160904065911/http://www.interlingua.fi/iedpref.htm
.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Oct 6, 2019, 4:27:09 AM10/6/19
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Where did Esperanto get it from?

Peter T. Daniels

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Oct 6, 2019, 9:00:07 AM10/6/19
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On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 2:57:35 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:51:02 -0000 (UTC): António Marques
> <anton...@sapo.pt> scribeva:
>
> >Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Not enough. You don't understand the method of extraction for
> >>>>> Interlingua. What is needed is 3 out of 4 languages.
> >>>>
> >>>> Where do they get 'tamen' from?
> >>>
> >>> Esperanto. But don't tell anyone.
> >
> >A lousy choice, it's too similar to _tamben_.
>
> Not for me. I seriously never thought of that connection. I learnt
> 'tamen' from Esperanto in 1972 or so, as the reflex of Dutch toch, and
> never forgot it since. I probably encountered 'también' and 'tambem'
> only later, and didn't confuse them at all.

Can you see how that would be different for a Portuguese- or Spanish-
speaker, and thus be somewhat antithetical to the supposed purpose of
Interlingua?

> Re-encountering 'tamen', and also 'sed' in Interlingua in 2003 or 2013
> was like meeting old friends. Interlingua, by the way, also has
> 'nonobstante' and 'totevia' for 'tamen'; and anque, alsi, etiam,
> equalmente for tamben.

(It doesn't help us outside kibitzers that you haven't provided a gloss
for any of the words you have mentioned.)

> >> More seriously: the 3 out of 4 method often doesn't work for function
> >> words a.k.a. particulas.
> >
> >Doesn't it, or is it more difficult to apply? Sometimes people give up too
> >easily. Is IL subject to corrections?

Does Interlingua encode the differences between _ser_ and _estar_, or
_aber_ and _sondern_, two pairs that can confuse English-speakers; or
_as_ and _like_, which definitely confuse German-speakers?

How do conlangs in general deal with distinctions that are "natural"
for speakers of one language but difficult for speakers of another?

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 7, 2019, 2:32:12 AM10/7/19
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Sun, 6 Oct 2019 06:00:05 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

>> Re-encountering 'tamen', and also 'sed' in Interlingua in 2003 or 2013
>> was like meeting old friends. Interlingua, by the way, also has
>> 'nonobstante' and 'totevia' for 'tamen'; and anque, alsi, etiam,
>> equalmente for tamben.
>
>(It doesn't help us outside kibitzers that you haven't provided a gloss=20
>for any of the words you have mentioned.)

rhar.net/ianl

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 7, 2019, 2:33:41 AM10/7/19
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>> >Where do they get 'tamen' from?
>>
>> Esperanto. But don't tell anyone.

>Where did Esperanto get it from?

Latin. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tamen

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Oct 7, 2019, 3:06:58 AM10/7/19
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Makes sense - Interlingua is basically a neo-Latin project.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Oct 7, 2019, 5:10:08 AM10/7/19
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Originally Latino sine flexione, I think. Derived from it, anyway.


--
athel

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 7, 2019, 12:17:34 PM10/7/19
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Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:10:04 +0200: Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> scribeva:

>On 2019-10-07 07:06:56 +0000, M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski said:
>
>> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 9:33:41 AM UTC+3, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>>>> Where do they get 'tamen' from?
>>>>>
>>>>> Esperanto. But don't tell anyone.
>>>
>>>> Where did Esperanto get it from?
>>>
>>> Latin. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tamen
>>
>> Makes sense - Interlingua is basically a neo-Latin project.
>
>Originally Latino sine flexione, I think.

No. There was a time when Latino sine flexione was called Interlingua,
but it is completely different and distint from IALA Interlingua of
1951.

> Derived from it, anyway.

No, wrong again. Latino sine flexione was only one of MANY languages
studied by IALA, others being Volapük, Esperanto, Ido,
Occidental-Interlingua, Novial.

Ruud Harmsen

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Oct 9, 2019, 1:22:48 PM10/9/19
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Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:47:34 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>https://rudhar.com/writings/Multatuli/Ideen/III/541.htm
>Multatuli in interlingua.

Fake news avant la lettre:
https://rudhar.com/writings/Multatuli/Ideen/III/542.htm

Con un nota de me, le traductor:
https://rudhar.com/writings/Multatuli/notatrad.htm#N001
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