Phaistos Disc again, delving deeper, final evidence

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Phaistos Disc again, delving deeper, final evidence. 10 messages in one,
compiled because of a current wave of adversity in sci.lang which
I transform as usual into energy


(1/10)

Phaistos Disc, as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth, combined with an alternative
archaeological story:

A promising young man from Lycosoura spent much time in Elaia's grove at
Phigalia, learned all he could about agriculture from the priestesses of
Demeter-Elaia, and consulted the oracle of Nyx. Powerful Nyx, feared even
by Zeus, was the daughter of Poseidon in the guise of a stallion and of
Demeter in the guise of a mare. (Demeter as goddess of cereals is represented
by the baking oven in the center field of the Elaia disc, and Poseidon,
originally the god of rivers, in form of the waves next to the baking oven)

Enter Elaia's grove, kindle wood that is polished round about,
walk around the sacrificial fire, beat the earth, and neigh
suddenly like a pair of horses: Aio ae! hyauax! Come, shadowy one,
noble late Night, born by the goddess again and again

Later on the young man wandered to the Argolis, bringing olive twigs and
portable beehives with him. He introduced edible olives (elaia 'olive')
in the Argivian plain, grew cereals, vegetables, vine, and cared for the
bees. Thus he luckily averted a famine and was appointed king of Tiryns.

He had a good friend at Phaistos in the fertile plain of Mesara in southern
Crete. He asked him for a pair of gold discs he could wear on his shoulders
on festive occasions. Well, the gifted scribe and goldsmith invented a
peculiar Greek alphabet which allowed him to render Elaia's grove and Tiryns
both in words and as pictures - Tiryns from the former Round Building on top
of the acropolis (rosette of eight massive blocks at the base still extant
in situ, represented by the rosette of eight petals in the center of the
Tiryns disc) to the well guarded palisade (enforced by a banning formula
of archaic power). Spiral text

Zeus is the shining one also when Zeus is the Lycaion one
whose lovers give birth to offspring his equal,
and if shining Tiryns is a divine town, also I (Eponymous Tiryns)
may be a shining one of the same kind (i.e. divine)

text covering the entire margin, banning formula enforcing the palisade,
deterring possible intruders who try to enter the acropolis and the Zeus
shrine replacing the former Round Building that burned down at the end
of the Early Helladic period of time

Marked (by the god) and lonely forever, without hope for salvation
and without a shadow, shall return who tries to intrude into the
sanctuary

A fresco in the palace of Tiryns showed the king and his successors worshiping
Demeter-Elaia, and Zeus in the guise of an eagle behind her, under a sky of
raining cereals (grains), between the men olive twigs, on their shoulders
gold discs, and they appearing as lion-wolf-dog-bee men. The lion symbolizes
royalty; the wolf reminds of Lycosoura, Greek lykos 'wolf'; dogs are watchful
guards; and bees industrious helpers of a farming society.

The palace is long gone, but the freso survives in the gold signet ring found
in a cache of Tiryns

http://www.seshat.ch/home/ring.gif
http://www.seshat.ch/home/ring2.JPG

The olive twigs between the lion-wolf-dog-bee men are the same sign as
on the Phaistos Disc, which disc is the pair of clay models baked together,
found by Luigi Pernier in 1908. Maybe the pair of gold discs will one day
be found in another cache of Tiryns? The lower parts of the palace ruins
are not yet excavated.


(2/10)

The emphatic sigma Ss (explained by Wilhelm Larfeld on the pages 54/5
of Derk Ohlenroth's book) is represented by the rosette of eight petals
which appears

*** at the beginning of the spiral text in the center of the Tiryns disc,
SsEYR for Zeus

*** repeated for the Lycaion SsEYR

*** and again at the beginning of the ring text, banning formula covering
the entire margin, SsLYGOS 'marked (by the god, SsEYR)'

*** and once on the margin of the Elaia side, KSsYNORIS for a pair of horses
- Poseidon fell in love with Demeter, she fled, he turned into a stallion,
she into a mare, he raped her, she in her anger made the cereals wither
and caused a famine; only Pan with his flute could mollify her, placated
she gave birth to Nyx 'Night' and made the fields fertile again

Whatever the meaning of this myth (perhaps a reflex on the invasion of the
Indo-Europeans and their horses in the Balkans?) the rosette indicates deities
and has a multiple significance in the center of the Tiryns disc

*** the former Round Building from the Early Helladic period on top of the
limestone hill of Tiryns contained a shrine of Zeus; the Round Building burned
down in the Early Helladic period, or at it's end; the sanctuary of Zeus was
probably rebuilt in the Middle Helladic period; anyway, a rosette of massive
blocks at the base of the former Round Building still extant in situ

*** as a flower it evokes the sun that makes vegetation grow

*** as a windrose it allows an exact orientation of the disc: entrance to the
acropolis in the NEE; pictogram of Demeter-Elaia on the margin turning into
a mare (growing a mane) indicating West, Phigalia west of Tiryns; two waves
in the South indicating the former course of the Manesse river (which caused
heavy floodings and was therefore diverted around the mountain east of Tiryns
with a kilometers long and up to thirteen meters high dam in the Late Helladic
period according to geo-archaeologist Eberhard Zannger - a Herculean labor)

*** a lunisolar calendar, each petal 45 days, in all a basic year of 360 days,
add 5 and occasionally 6 days for the tiny circle in the center and you get
a regular year of 365 and occasional leap year of 366 days, while 21 continous
periods of 45 days are 945 days and correspond to 32 lunations or synodic
months

*** a world formula: here and now (center), in the South and North, East and
West, below and above, in the past and future - SsEYR is everywhere, Zeus
onmipresent.


(3/10)

Eponymous Tiryns on the Phaistos Disc is (in my opinion) Lord Laertes
the gardener in Homer's Odyssey, of the lineage Zeus - Arkeisios - Laertes
- Odysseus - Telemachos.

TYR for the one who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give was
the god of the first Indo-European homeland on the middle course of the
Amu Darya. Central Asia abounds with derivatives of TYR. Magdalenian TYR
became Middle Helladic SsEYR Doric Sseus Homeric Zeus, while DhAG meaning
able accounts for Dios, genitive of Zeus.

Arkeisios led the former miner tribes of the Greeks and Hellenes from Central
Asia to the southern Balkans and might have been the mythological founder
of the Early Helladic period in the Argolis on the Peloponnese.

Lord Laertes the gardener personifies the Middle Helladic period, achieving
a certain equilibrium between the invading Indo-Europeans and the local
tradition of the Vinca (Vincha) culture surviving in Elaia's grove at Phigalia.
Problem: Eponymous Tiryns lived in the Argolis, Lord Laertes on Ithaca.
The question was solved by Magdalenian. ITA CA Ithaca means under the
sky CA of the young (Zeus) bull ITA, and ATI CA Attica under the sky of the
mature (Zeus) bull ATI. Ithaca named originally the Argolis, then larger parts
of the Peloponnese, or all of it, and survives in the name of a relatively
small island off the northwestern Peloponnese. The lion-wolf-dog-bee men
spread over the Peloponnese and are often depicted as pair blessing a young
tree between them. Eponymous Tiryns introduced edible olives in tha Argolis,
and Lord Laertes planted the olive tree around whose trunk Odysseuy and
Penelope constructed their immoveable bed, symbol of the hopefully eternal
Greek civilization.

Odysseus - 'if there ever was such a man' (Homer) - personifies Greece
in the time of the Late Helladic period ending with the Trojan war.

Telemachos 'Far Away War' symbolizes Greece in the time of the Messenian
wars, far from Troy and far away in time from the Trojan war. Homer 1 of
the Iliad flourished in the time of the first Messenian war, Homer 2 of
the Odyssey florished in the time of the second Messenian war, and both
of them were concerned about the coherence of the Greek civilization.


(4/10)

Eponymous Tiryns would have achieved a certain equilibrium between the
invading Indo-Europeans and Old Europe in the sense of Marija Gimbutas
which partly survived in Elaia's grove at Phigalia in Arkadia. Comparing
a loaf shaped clay plaque from Banjica near Belgrade, Early Vinca (Vincha),
with a rectangular spiral and inscriptions rendering a grove with gardens
and sanctuaries and beehives (honeycombs); the baking oven in the shrine
of the bird goddess at Sabatinovka, Southern Bug Valley, Early Cucuteni;
and the Elaia disc representing Demeter-Elaia's grove, a baking oven
in the center of the disc - in all fifteen baking ovens on this disc,
counterbalancing the fifteeen shields of the Argos eye on the other disc

http://www.seshat.ch/home/kirike08.GIF
http://www.seshat.ch/home/kirike11.GIF

The entrance field of Elaia's grove contains from the outside to the inside
(against the reading direction) the head of a pig, a pair of beehives (my
interpretation), a bag (dito), and a vine twig. Among the offerings to Demeter
had been pigs, also figurines with the head of a pig, and bags of unwashed
wool. The first lion-wolf-dog-bee man in line before Demeter on the gold
signet ring from a cache at Tiryns raises a libation jug of wine mixed with
honey in honor of the goddess. Both ring and offerings indicate respect for
the legacy of Old Europe, and only the balance of the old culture and new
culture of the Indo-Europeans made the rise of Greece possible.

The center field of the Elaia disc shows a baking oven, emblem of Demeter,
goddess of cereals, and a wave, emblem of Poseidon, originally a river god,
peacefully side by side. While the center field of the Tiryns disc associates
the rosette (Ss) of SsEYR Zeus and profile (EY) of the king and ear of grain
(R) as further emblem of Demeter. Eponymous Tiryns in divine company!
On his cheek is a tattoo resembling an 8 consisting of an upper circle for
the divine sphere and a lower circle for the human sphere. Eponymous Tiryns
rules in the name of the god and goddess, honors both of them in like manner,
and thus makes the Argolis flourish and prosper.

We find a marvellous complexity and multitude of enfolded messages, achieved
with a peculiar alphabet of 45 pictograms, among them for example six alphas,
allowing to render Elaia's grove and Tiryns both in words and as pictures.
A Greek alphabet from around 1650 BC, invented in the laboratory of writing
that was Minoan Crete.


(5/10)

Fifteen baking ovens on the Elaia disc as emblem of Demeter have a counterpart
in fifteen shields on the Tiryns disc, Argos eye, emblem of a watchful union
of towns in the Argolis, also of the organization of a single town - in the
center the ruler of the focused mind CO surrounded by guards of the open eyes
OC along the enveloping palisade or wall LOP, together CO OC LOP overformed
by Cyclops, the most famous one having been Polyphem, Homeric symbol of Troy,
his one eye overlooking the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa
that provided protected shelter for 5,000 till 10,000 people. Consider also
the term 'cyclopic wall'.

PAS LOP Penelope was the personification of the Argolis, everywhere PAS towns
enveloped by palisades or walls LOP, and POL LOP PAS named the Peloponnese,
fortified settlements POL enveloped by palisades or walls LOP everywhere PAS.

A further numerical symmetry are the five portable beehives on the Elaia disc
and five eagles on the Tiryns disc. The bee is an emblematic animal of Demeter,
also of Elaia, goddess of olives (Greek elaia 'olive'), see the gold ring from
Mokhlos in Crete http://www.seshat.ch/home/elaia.GIF and the eagle was
a guise of Zeus. The flying eagle on the disc holds a snake in his talons.
Perhaps the farmers of Tiryns trained eagles to catch snakes? Then there is
a political and military aspect. Zeus in his guise of an egle, protecting the
palisade of Tiryns (banning formula along the rim, covering the entire margin)
punishing intruders symbolized by snakes?

Maybe there is more information regarding the social organization of the
Argolis in the Middle Helladic period of time, made accessible by Derk
Ohlenroth with his fine decipherment.


(6/10)

Three signs on the Elaia disc and three signs on the Tiryns disc represent
a vertical olive twig. They return in the three vertical olive twigs between
the lion-wolf-dog-bee men on the gold signet ring from a cache of Tiryns
in the same form and nearly the same size (10 vs 12 mm high). May we assume
an open air sanctuary of three sacred olive trees in Middle Helladic Tiryns?

Plenty double axes of bronze and some of gold were deposited in the cult cave
of Arkalokhori on Crete. One of the bronze double axes bears a hieroglyphic
inscription. Three of the signs (no correspondence with the number three above)
closely resemble pictograms on the Phaistos Disc. Also this inscription was
deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth

DAeIOYS LO(Y)S(I)AS EIMI I belong to the goddess Lousia

Lousia means 'Angry One'. She was the Cretan equivalent of Demeter-Elaia
from Phigalia in Arkadia who turned into Black Demeter-Melaina and caused
a famine. So we have not only a connection of the scripts but also of the
underlying myths. Apparently the votiv gifts were deposited in order to
mollify the goddess and prevent a famine.

The first six pictograms in the center of the Tiryns disc tell the basic
story of Eponymous Tiryns in form of the shortest possible summary

rosette for SsEYR Zeus
profile of Eponymous Tiryns
ear of grain for Demeter

walking man
vertical olive twig

ground plan of a palace

Eponymous Tiryns, worshiper of Zeus and Demeter, had come from Elaia's
grove at Phigalia in Arkadia, bringing twigs of edible olives with him,
grafted them on wild olive trees, averted a famine, and was appointed
king of Tiryns the shining town ...


(7/10)

Remember the promising and ambitious young man from Lycosoura visiting
Elaia's grove at Phigalia, consulting the oracle of Nyx. What did she tell him
via her priestess? Maybe she gave him the advice to learn about agriculture?
and prophesized that one day he may be appointed king?

The reading direction leads from the end of the Elaia disc evoking Nyx to
the six first pictograms in the center of the Tiryns disc, which, when read
as emblems and pictures, convey the summary story of Eponymous Tiryns.
Can they also visualize the prophesy made by Nyx that came true?

From a 'shadowy late night' in Arkadia to the brightness of the Middle
Helladic day ...

If you magnify the six first pictograms in the center of the Tiryns disc,
the beginning of the spiral evokes a nautilus shell (and the man fixes
the ear of grain before him as if saying that he studied agriculture).
A Minoan seal from the Idaean cave, where Zeus was born according to
a Cretan legend, shows a priestess holding a triton shell before her mouth.
Beautifully colored spiraled conch-shells were found in many Minoan shrines,
nearly always the narrow end cut off, so they were used as megaphones by
a priestess conveying the message of her goddess.

The spirals on the pair of discs have then a further meaning, and thus confirm
the context of an oracle as found by Derk Ohlenroth in his fine decipherment.


(8/10)

Even astronomy is encoded in the Phaistos Disc - beyond the rosette of eight
petals that also adorns beautiful Kamares Ware from Middle Minoan Crete.

On the Elaia disc we count 119 and on the Tiryns disc 123 in all 242 =
11 x 22 pictograms which provide better definitions of the lunation and
year than the lunisolar calendar of the rosette.

But first of all they provide titles for the pair of discs. The one of the
Elaia disc is given by the 11 pictograms of the first 3 fields

EN / YLAeI / ELAiAS / in(to) Elaia's grove

and the one of the Tiryns disc by the 22 pictograms in the first 6 fields

SsEyR / KI / PhAAiNNOS / SsEyR / Ai YL / KIOS /

Zeus is the shining one also when Zeus is the Lycaion one

The Elaia disc evokes the 'noble late Night' Nyx, daughter of Demeter-Elaia,
personification of night, and the Tiryns disc a sunny day provided by Zeus.

Analogously the number 11 of the Elaia disc refers to the moon. 400 periods
of 11 days correspond to 149 lunations or synodic months, mistake half a
minute per lunation.

Count lunations in the 30 29 30 mode. 15 and 17 lunations yield 443 and 502
days respectively

17 15 17 15 17 or 17 32 49 64 81 lunations

502 443 502 443 502 or 502 945 1447 1890 2392 days

81 64 4 sum 149 lunations

2932 1890 30 29 30 29 sum 4400 days

Result: 400 periods of 11 days are 4,400 days and correspond to 149 lunations;
mistake half a minute per lunation.

Moon by night, sun by day. 119 123 123 sum 365 days in a regular year. Four
regular years plus one leap day are 1,461 days. 83 periods of 11 days are
1,826 days for 5 years; mistake one hour per year

365/1 (plus 1461/4) 1826/5 3287/9 4748/13 6209/17 ... 9131/25

These and further additive number sequences were known to the Minoans, helped
them find a way through the 'labyrinth' of demanding astronomical calculations,
and were later on dubbed 'Ariadne's thread'.

The myth of Minotaur in the labyrinth of Knossos and the round kernos in the
royal court of Mallia encode lunisolar calendars based on a number sequence
relating lunations (l) and years (y)

l/y 37/3 99/8 136/11 235/19 (Knossos) 371/30 (Mallia)

The Mallia calendar uses a period of 11 days (returning in Elaia's number).
Derk Ohlenroth found a phonological parallel between the Phaistos Disc and
the altar stone inscription of Mallia which he translates as follows: May
the goddess (Britomartis) let it rain. So the concern was again agriculture.

The Phaistos Disc in the light of Derk Ohlenroth's decipherment is of
a marvellous complexity which allows to combine various fragments of
the Minoan and Helladic past.


(9/10)

Not enough with astronomy, the numbers also reveal a system of early geometry.

The Elaia disc has 119 or 7 x 17 and the Tiryns disc 123 or 3 x 41 pictograms.

17 and 41 appear in the basic number column for calculating the square and
octagon

1 1 2
2 3 4
5 7 10
12 17 24
29 41 58
and so on

41 and 123 belong to the basic number column for calculating the cube,
equilateral triangle and hexagon (the construction of a hexagon is indicated
by the geometrical sun on the gold signet ring from a cache of Tiryns)

1 1 3
2 4 6
1 2 3
3 5 9
8 14 24
4 7 12
11 19 33
30 52 90
15 26 45
41 71 123
and so on

17 and 123 are present in the basic number column for calculating the double
square and decagon

1 1 5
2 6 10
1 3 5
4 8 20
2 4 10
1 2 5
3 7 15
10 22 50
5 11 25
16 36 80
8 18 40
4 9 20
13 29 65
42 94 210
21 47 105
68 152 340
34 76 170
17 38 85
55 123 275
and so on

Elaia disc 119, Tiryns disc 123, sum 242 pictograms. Let the circumference
of a circle measure 242 units. How long is the diameter? practically 77 units,
value for pi 22/7

77 x 22/7 = 11 x 22 = 242

Here we have again the number 11 of the Elaia title and number 22 of the
Zeus title involving night and day, lunar month and solar year, final evidence
for the validity of the decipherment achieved by Derk Ohlenroth.

A pseudo-decipherment is a window painted on the wall. A genuine decipherment
opens a window on a far away scenery and events in a long bygone era.


(10/10)

There might be even more geometry encoded in the Phaistos Disc, again
based on Egyptian - Mesopotamian - Minoan methods.

The Elaia title of the first three fields has 11 signs and the Tiryns title
of the six first fields has 22 signs, 11 x 22 = 242, number of all signs
on the Phaistos Disc.

The Elaia disc has 30 fields and the Tiryns disc 31 fields, 30 x 31 = 930,
an interesting number.

Basic pi sequence, followed by the most important one

4/1 (plus 3/1) 7/2 10/3 13/4 16/5 19/6 22/7

3/1 (plus 22//) 25/8 47/15 69/22 ... 465/148

Double the numbers of the last value and you get 930/296 for pi (3.14189...
instead of 3.14159...).

A rectangle measuring 12 by 35 units has a diagonal measuring exactly 37 units.
Multiply the numbers by a factor of 8 and you obtain a rectangle measuring
96 by 280 units, diagonal exactly 296 units, while the circle circumscribing
this rectangle has a circumference of practically 930 units, 930 the product
of the number 30 of Elaia fields and 31 of Tiryns fields.

The over-determination of laudatio and mythology and topography and astronomy
and geometry might explain some of the linguistic peculiarites of the early Greek
as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth - anyway a secret message, beacuse the name
of Nyx was taboo, her public name Despoina 'Mistress', but is given as her proper
name Nyx on the Elaia disc, daughter of Demeter-Elaia.

Spirals in the Neolithic art of the Balkans have the meaning of regeneration,
growing, waxing, and giving birth. Double spirals curving in and out - for
example on the womb of a Vinca (Vincha) goddess - are a symbol of the
sequence of generations, one following the other.

The goddess on the Elaia disc gives birth to Nyx over and over again, while
SsEYR on the Tiryns disc 'sired' offspring his equal, Zeus in Homer's Odyssey
founding the lineage Arkeisios - Laertes - Odysseus - Telemachos, Lord Laertes
the gardener being the alter ego of Eponymous Tiryns and his dynasty, hero
of the Phaistos Disc.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

one: Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

two: The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

three: Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

four: Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

five: You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

six: On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

seven: Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

eight: On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have
learnt languages unknown to you.

nine: To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le vendredi 1 novembre 2019 09:53:27 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :

> Phaistos Disc again, delving deeper, final evidence.

you know, my dear Franz, some words should never be used, in particular words like "final", "originally", "conservative", "archaic", etc.
These words are falsely descriptive and heavily loaded with ideological prejudices. They are self-delusional.
One case I have in mind is the book by Dietrich-Maier on the Mittani Letter. They arrogantly and imprudently wrote that their analysis is "endgüldig" [sic]. In fact, their book is a complete failure.

[unusually lengthy crap removed]

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 10:01:54 PM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>
> one: Cave art gives us no clue

Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
attacking women. Then he joined sci.lang in early 2006 and attacked
me out of the blue. May my head burst, he wrote in a stilted German,
the sooner the more betterer. He applied what I call the strategy
of the weak dog: find a weaker dog than yourself, bite him and hope
to climb the social ladder. Only that I am no weak dog. Ever since
he follows me around, commanding a shadow army of braying aliasses.
He attacks also others under different names in the same thread.
One of his pseudonyms had been Der psychopathsiche Entdärmer (sic)
'the psychopathic eviscerator'. Using his real name he wrote that
he has plenty ideas of what he could do to me with a knife, alas,
the law still considers me a human being with rights. He tried and
tries everything to obstruct my work and ruin my threads. About my
brief summary of Homer's Odyssey, work of decades, he bragged that
he could write such a piece within a quarter of an hour - only that
we never see anything like it from him. Once he told me in all earnest
that I can't understand the epic when I read the Greek original,
I must read the Finnish translation! A barren mind paired with
a burning ambition results in craving power. He must govern sci.lang
with a little textbook half-knowledge. He must make the rules.
Unable of arguing on the topic level he operates most of the time
on meta-levels and drops verdicts from above, not even knowing
what meta-level means, claiming that I call my work a meta-level,
proudly parading his exemplary typeryys.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Arnaud Fournet is an eerie wiedergänger of my first longtime online stalker:
Jean Faucounau alias grapheus, Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer,
located the language of the disc in southwestern Anatolia, never posted
his translation, stalked me from 2001-05, used stereotyped SHOUTING
-- Arnaud Fournet alias yangg, Frenchman and Phaistos Disc decipherer,
locates the language of the disc in southeastern Anatolia, never posts
his translation, stalked me from ca. 2010-14, uses stereotyped scatology.

Are there further Frenchmen and Phaistos Disc decipherers in line
waiting to stalk me and denigrate Derk Ohlenroth? My astrologer had
a long look into her Fine Magic Crystal Ball (tradem.reg.) and finally
nodded: Martin Feullemille alias glypho, locates the language of the
disc in the middle of southern Anatolia ... Pauv' type, wasting his
time on a prize he lost before he even started.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Science is about discussion and debating.
You never listened to what people say and keep repeating over and over your prefabricated crap.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

i) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

ii) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

iii) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

iv) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

v) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

vi) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

vii) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

viii) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

ix) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

eitt) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

tvö) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

þrjú) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

fjögur) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

fimm) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

sex) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

sjö) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

átta) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

níu) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is need

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sat, 2 Nov 2019 07:11:19 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
<craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:

>eitt) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.
>
>tvö) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.
>
>þrjú) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.
>
>fjögur) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.
>
>fimm) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.
>
>sex) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/proq-sex.htm

>sjö) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

Chweu!!!!!

>átta) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have
>learnt languages unknown to you.
>
>níu) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is need

Your numerals are difficult to read, would you please change them?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

[Helmut Richter]

He *does* change them! Indeed, they are the *only* changing part of the
contribution which has now appeared unchanged (barring the numbers) for
about 150 times.

This group was sometimes interesting before the Olcotts,
Wojna-Bojewskis, Dedens, and Gnaedingers took over.

--
Helmut Richter

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

I am quite happy to write about interesting things in an interesting way when I am not answering Franz. However, even the normal persons here seem to prefer to derail quite interesting discussions, and Peter has entered full Franz II mode.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sat, 2 Nov 2019 15:39:40 +0100: Helmut Richter <hr.u...@email.de>
scribeva:

>On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> Sat, 2 Nov 2019 07:11:19 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski
>> <craoi...@gmail.com> scribeva:
>>
>> >eitt) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.
>> >
>> >tvö) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.
>> >
>> >þrjú) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.
>> >
>> >fjögur) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.
>> >
>> >fimm) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.
>> >
>> >sex) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".
>>
>> https://rudhar.com/lingtics/intrlnga/proq-sex.htm
>>
>> >sjö) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.
>>
>> Chweu!!!!!
>>
>> >átta) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have
>> >learnt languages unknown to you.
>> >
>> >níu) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is need
>>
>> Your numerals are difficult to read, would you please change them?
>
>He *does* change them!

Yes, but I can only read normal English numbers, in black print on a
white background.

>Indeed, they are the *only* changing part of the
>contribution which has now appeared unchanged (barring the numbers) for
>about 150 times.
>
>This group was sometimes interesting before the Olcotts,
>Wojna-Bojewskis, Dedens, and Gnaedingers took over.

Now that you mention him, where is Olcott? Still there, or did I block
him?

[Helmut Richter]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:

> I am quite happy to write about interesting things in an interesting way
> when I am not answering Franz. However, even the normal persons here
> seem to prefer to derail quite interesting discussions, and Peter has
> entered full Franz II mode.

Same as you. Therefore I do not see your "interesting things" because they
are only a tiny percentage of your contributions. No, I don't check the
garbage for a possible pearl.

--
Helmut Richter

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

That's a pity, because Mścisław has a lot of interesting things to say.
However, I agree with you about the endless repetitions of his summary
of Franz's claptrap.

--
athel

[DKleinecke]

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 8:55:15 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> Now that you mention him, where is Olcott? Still there, or did I block
> him?

Peter Olcutt just stopped posting anywhere a while ago. In so
far as I can feel any emotion about him I fear for his safety.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

It was always patchy. There have been longish pauses before.


--
athel

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

I didn't even remember Olcott from before his last spree, but I guess he has been active here before.

[Peter T. Daniels]

He changes because he understands that GG hides his crap under "show quoted
text" links when it's repeated from elsewhere in the thread.

Note that Ruud felt a need to add yet another copy of Panu's crap to the
Permanent Record.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 3:39:43 PM UTC+1, Helmut Richter wrote:
>
> He *does* change them! Indeed, they are the *only* changing part of the
> contribution which has now appeared unchanged (barring the numbers) for
> about 150 times.
>
> This group was sometimes interesting before the Olcotts,
> Wojna-Bojewskis, Dedens, and Gnaedingers took over.
>

You encouraged the hölmö by saying a kind word on his message. He has a very
strong need of belonging, and now wishes to become the hero who finishes off
with me.

Judging by your name you are German, or of German ancestry, so you could read
the book by Derk Ohlenroth, also Wilhelm Larfeld, Klaus Schmidt and Eberhard
Zangger, and other German authors I mention, but I never see any interest in
them by the Germans in this group.

You can't say a word on the Phaistos Disc, only make meta-statements and
drop verdicts from above. Endless meta-babble is a drag of sci.lang.

And I did not take over sci.lang but was drawn in by Jacques Guy in 2003.
Is it my fault that you guys got no ideas and nothing to say? lacking
arguments on the topic level?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 7:02:57 PM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> That's a pity, because Mścisław has a lot of interesting things to say.
> However, I agree with you about the endless repetitions of his summary
> of Franz's claptrap.

You are a sock-puppet of the typerys aka hölmö. What intersting things
did he say? In 2006 he wrote that he is eternally fascinated by the many
different grammars, so I hoped he would start a thread on grammar, but no,
nada, niente. And what do you contribute to sci.lang? what makes you behave
as if you were an authority throning above me? You just raise once again
my old suspicion that you are a donkey holes in the stable of Panu Petteri
Höglund's braying aliasses.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

I tried in vain to suggest a realistic project to him, already years ago,
for example about neighboring words, but he never showed any interest.
Not long ago I read that an American team carried out a project like my
word neighboring statistics (not having a better name) and they found results,
for example 'professor' and 'John' are a fairly frequent combinations, also
'art' and 'Jane', revealing a bias, men being more inclined to science and
women to art. Instead of listening he began claiming that he was God,
the one creator of the Universe who also makes our lives go on and will
judge us at the end of days. I hope he is now getting professional help.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Adversity doubles my energy, while I find reward in the joy of my work.
Nobody able of speaking about the Phaistos Disc in here. Only meta-babble.
Content comes from me, and my hermeneutic interpretations carry me safely
across the stormy waters of sci.lang.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 1:56:17 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Science is about discussion and debating.
> You never listened to what people say and keep repeating over and over your prefabricated crap.

Yes, I offer my interpretation of the Phaistos Disc in the light of Derk
Ohlenroth's decipherment, then you would offer yours if you were a scholar,
then we could discuss them. But you don't post your translation, and you drop
verdicts from above, lacking arguments on the topic level, keeping your brain
in your pampers.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Why don't you buy Arnaud's book

https://www.thebookedition.com/fr/the-phaistos-disc-and-luwian-p-369788.html

?

It'll only cost you 35€. Then you'll know why he thinks it's written in
Luwian, and will be able to discuss it here "on the topic level."


--
athel

[Arnaud Fournet]

If Franz reads my book, he'll understand what a decipherment really is, and why mine is really a decipherment. Now, I cannot exclude that somebody might show up with another decipherment that abides by the rules with the same language as Luwian or another one.
In all cases, nobody who tried Greek as the encoded language managed to provide a reasonably acceptable decipherment. All had to cheat with the rules. And Ohlenroth is conspicuous for massive breach of all rules.
Incidentally, the contents of my book:
1. The Phaistos Disc 1
2. What is Deciphering? 5
3. Testing Hurrian as Language X 13
4. Determining a Syntactical Grid 19
5. Making Further Advances 27
6. Finalizing the Test 35
7. Annotated Translation of the Disc with Hurrian 43
8. Testing Luwian as Language X 55
9. The Phaistos Disc and Cypriot Syllabary 71
10. Annotated Translation with Archaic Lycian 81
Glossary of Archaic Lycian 104
11. The Arkalochori Ax 107
12. The Egeo-Anatolian Glyphs 109
References 117

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 2:50:57 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

> Judging by your name you [Helmut Richter] are German, or of German

> ancestry, so you could read
> the book by Derk Ohlenroth, also Wilhelm Larfeld, Klaus Schmidt and Eberhard
> Zangger, and other German authors I mention, but I never see any interest in
> them by the Germans in this group.

They are not chauvinists. They do not flock to anything that happens to be
written in their language.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le lundi 4 novembre 2019 08:50:57 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 3:39:43 PM UTC+1, Helmut Richter wrote:
> >
> > He *does* change them! Indeed, they are the *only* changing part of the
> > contribution which has now appeared unchanged (barring the numbers) for
> > about 150 times.
> >
> > This group was sometimes interesting before the Olcotts,
> > Wojna-Bojewskis, Dedens, and Gnaedingers took over.
> >
>
> You encouraged the hölmö by saying a kind word on his message. He has a very
> strong need of belonging, and now wishes to become the hero who finishes off
> with me.
>
> Judging by your name you are German, or of German ancestry, so you could read
> the book by Derk Ohlenroth, also Wilhelm Larfeld, Klaus Schmidt and Eberhard
> Zangger, and other German authors I mention, but I never see any interest in
> them by the Germans in this group.

Interesting. I missed this sentence.
So, in fact, you're a kind of Nazi German supremacist asshole, who blames Germans for not being as much as Nazi German supremacist as you are.
This must indeed be underlined.

[Peter T. Daniels]

This reply condemns AF even more than his usual bigotries.

Let AF see my response for a more suitable reproach.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

One) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

Two) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

Three) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

Four) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

Five) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

Six) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

Seven) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

Eight) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

Nine) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

One) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

Two) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

Three) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

Four) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

Five) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

Six) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

Seven) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

Eight) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

Nine) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

For some reason, Franz stayed out for a day or two. We tasted freedom.

"Oh, freedom, Oh, freedom
Oh freedom over me
And before I'd be a slave
I'd be buried in my grave
And go home to my Lord and be free"

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 1:59:10 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Interesting. I missed this sentence.
> So, in fact, you're a kind of Nazi German supremacist asshole, who blames Germans for not being as much as Nazi German supremacist as you are.
> This must indeed be underlined.

Last night I finally realized where the problem is. You try to save the belief
in sound laws being actual laws that answer all questions in an abstract manner,
'hors sol'. You do that by systematizing sound algebra, without really pene-
trating the fog. You can't shed light on the Hurrians. If only you could
decipher the Phaistos Disc as a Hurrian document, your model of sound algebra
were confirmed ... Whereas I consider 'sound laws' a shadow of the real thing,
outward approximations to the physiology and neurology of speaking. My under-
standing of language is generally more complex, and yields results: a wide
array of hermeneutic interpretations you must ignore and denigrate, panushing
me for ending the happy illusion of sound algebra. This is also why I am
resented in sci.lang. The perpetual escape to a meta-level says: we want back
the strong form of sound algebra, when things were simple!

Once it was paradise
but now it's time to let it go

(Miley Cyrus)

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 09:01:09 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 1:59:10 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Interesting. I missed this sentence.
> > So, in fact, you're a kind of Nazi German supremacist asshole, who blames Germans for not being as much as Nazi German supremacist as you are.
> > This must indeed be underlined.
>
>
> Last night I finally realized where the problem is. You try to save the belief
> in sound laws being actual laws that answer all questions in an abstract manner,
> 'hors sol'. You do that by systematizing sound algebra, without really pene-
> trating the fog. You can't shed light on the Hurrians. If only you could
> decipher the Phaistos Disc as a Hurrian document, your model of sound algebra
> were confirmed ...

My claim is that the Disc is written in (archaic) Luwian.
Try to read what people write.
Apparently, you really have a problem with quoting other people.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

1: Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

2: The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

3: Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

4: Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

5: You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

6: On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

7: Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

8: On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

9: To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed

> Once it was paradise
> but now it's time to let it go
>
> (Miley Cyrus)

10: And your tastes in music still suck.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 1:42:12 PM UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> They are not chauvinists. They do not flock to anything that happens to be
> written in their language.

At least one of them could have looked up the book by Derk Ohlenroth and told
them clowns and clones of clowns that he is a serious scholar. (Embarassing
that I have to say that, even more embarassing their silence.)

Sci.lang had been a stronghold of the belief in the unlimited 'hors sol'
magic of sound algebra. It became almost an ersatz religion. I am accused
of ending this happy and comfortable illusion by revealing a more complex
understanding of language. Yes, guilty of that, and proud of it, makes me
feel as if I held one end of a rainbow in my hand. Young readers, there
are plenty more ways of looking at language than you learn from a textbook.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

a) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

b) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

c) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

d) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

e) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

f) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

g) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

h) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

i) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed

j) And your tastes in music still suck.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 9:25:39 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> My claim is that the Disc is written in (archaic) Luwian.
> Try to read what people write.

Well then, Luvian. It was also known in Troy, considering the bronze seal
inscribed with Luvian hieroglyphs, one side honoring a male scribe and
the other a female scribe.

Where did the Luvians come from? Let me propose a hypothesis based on Nesic /
Hittite place names.

POL LAS Wilusa (W)Ilios Ilion (Homeric Troy)

POL means a fortified settlement (Greek polis Latin villa French ville),
and LAS a hill, or a mountain in what I call 'attention perspective':
a hill heightened by an awe and fear inspiring cyclopic wall. Homer's
Polyphem - a famous cyclops who resembled more a wooded mountain top
than a man who eats bread - symbolizes Troy, his one eye the acropolis
overlooking the wide river plain, his body downtown Troy VIIa that
provided protected shelter for 5,000 - 10,000 people.

TYR PAS Taruwisa Troy

TYR means to overcome in the double sense of rule and give, and PAS
everywhere (in a plain), here, south and north of me, east and west of me.
Troy dominated a crossing point of important tradeways (S-N and E-W),
and was protected from above by TYR SsEYR Sseus Zeus who ruled everywhere
PAS. According to Homer, Zeus and Athene had once been on the Trojan side.

KOD DhAG AS Hattusas (Hattushas)

KOD means tent, hut; several Sanskrit derivatives name strongholds. DhAG
means able, here a massive stronghold able to hold up all enemies (except
an inner usurpator who caused the fall of the mighty Hittite empire). And
AS means upward, up above. Together a really strong fortress on top of
a hill or mountain.

POL LAS named Athene as Pallas Athene.

Inverse LAS POL might have name the Luvian language, luwili

POL LAS Wilusa LAS POL luwili ?

POL Wil- LAS -lusa LAS lu- POL -wili

a language spoken by people residing in a palace on top of a hill or mountain
around 1600 BC ? how about Erzurum at the base of the Palandöken daglari

POL LAS DhAG Palandök- ??

Also the Hatti people or Hittites came a long way, from somewhere in the East
and/or North. Their last station before Hattusas (Hattushas) had been Nesa
Kültepe Kanish Kayseri.

Earth your 'hors sol' sound algebra. Find a connection to archaeology.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Your theories have only connections with your Gaggithaler ass.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

1. Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

2. The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

3. Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

4. Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

5. You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

6. On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

7. Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

8. On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

9. To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

10. And your tastes in music still suck.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 1:20:00 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Your theories have only connections with your Gaggithaler ass.

First you deciphered the Phaistos Disc as a Hurrian document, now as a Luvian
document. What will be the next language? But I guess the insults and the
scatology will remain the same, pétol.

A pseudo-decipherment resembles a fake inscription. Faucounau's decipherment
of the Phaistos Disc was a linear horror story. Mellaart's fake Luvian
inscription tells a linear story with acocalyptic elements. They shed no light
on the past, are dull as dish water. You can't post your translation. This and your general behaving tells me all.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 12:57:45 AM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
>
> 1. Cave art gives us no clue

> 2. The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue

Too much of nothing
Can make a man go Panu Petteri Höglund *

(Bob Dylan, Psylang Tapes)

* allusion to Panu Petteri Höglund the Clueless

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Manfred Korfmann, late excavator of Troy, was convinced that the Trojans
had been Luvians.

The antagonist of Troy was Ahhiyawa (Akhiyawa or Achijawa) Achaia,
identified as the Peloponnese with Mycene. Its name could go back to
AChI AD DA, swelling river AChI plus the generic river formula AD DA
for water flowing toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills or mountains.
This would go along with AChI )EI or AChI LEi Achilles, comparing the
fiercest Greek warrior to a river tsunami, swelling water attacking with
the vehemence of a lion.

Arzawa has been located in Lydia, western Anatolia, and was previously called
Luwija, land of the Luvians. The origin of the name Arzawa might have been
ARC AD DA, again the polished river formula AD DA -awa, this time combined
with a bear ARC (originally a cave bear, then Greek arktos for bear).
German has bärenstark 'strong like a bear', and reissen 'rip, tear' for both
a predatory animal killing a prey, eine Beute reissen, and a torrential
river, ein reissender Fluss. If this etymology holds, also the Luvians
had been fierce warriors.

Now the question is: where did the Luvians come from? did they cross the
Dardanelles? or did they come a long way from the East? maybe passing
Erzurum and the Dalandöken daglari? moving and spreading in a wide arc
around Hittite territory? finally reaching and overtaking Troy? or just
blending in?

Tomorrow: deep etymology of Odysseus

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le vendredi 8 novembre 2019 08:58:05 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 1:20:00 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Your theories have only connections with your Gaggithaler ass.
>
> First you deciphered the Phaistos Disc as a Hurrian document, now as a Luvian
> document. What will be the next language? But I guess the insults and the
> scatology will remain the same, pétol.

To be more precise, I described my attempt with Hurrian as an exercise in deciphering. And I indeed considered my attempt with Luwian is a real decipherment, that passes the criteria for being a decipherment.
It tend to think that it will not be possible to find a language that would match the Disc better than Luwian.

>
> A pseudo-decipherment resembles a fake inscription. Faucounau's decipherment
> of the Phaistos Disc was a linear horror story. Mellaart's fake Luvian
> inscription tells a linear story with acocalyptic elements. They shed no light
> on the past, are dull as dish water.

Most LinearA inscriptions are boring accountancy tablets, that shed no light on whatever, not even on typological features of the underlying language.
You have a completely perverted approach of historical sciences. Fancy does not make good History, it ruins it.
That's why your Magdagaggi fancies are worthless, as far as science is concerned. They belong at best to back-to-Paleolithic sci.fi literature. Try a career as a writer of fictional stuff.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 9:17:22 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> Most LinearA inscriptions are boring accountancy tablets, that shed no light on whatever, not even on typological features of the underlying language.
> You have a completely perverted approach of historical sciences. Fancy does not make good History, it ruins it.
> That's why your Magdagaggi fancies are worthless, as far as science is concerned. They belong at best to back-to-Paleolithic sci.fi literature. Try a career as a writer of fictional stuff.

Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake of
Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed that
the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic) and Robert Stieglitz and Jan
Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enumeration of cereals:
on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal, later
identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal). Most interesting for
me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
of a bull leaper on his feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life
for The, which allowed me the reconstruction MUC NOS SAI, bull MUC mind NOS
life SAI, the Minoan bull leaper as emblem of the Minoan astronomer taking
it up with the orbits of celestial bodies, and explaining both Minos and
Knossos

MUC NOS SAI Mi NOS (S)

MUC NOS SAI C NOS Sos

Boring? in your eyes, and the eyes of other psy.langers, but I am neither
you nor them, thank Adu and Dadumatha.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

I Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

II The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

III Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

IV Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

V You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

VI On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

VII Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

VIII On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

IX To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

X And your tastes in music still suck.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

1) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

2) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

3) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

4) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

5) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

6) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

7) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

8) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

9) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

10) And your tastes in music still suck.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le vendredi 8 novembre 2019 09:37:13 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 9:17:22 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > Most LinearA inscriptions are boring accountancy tablets, that shed no light on whatever, not even on typological features of the underlying language.
> > You have a completely perverted approach of historical sciences. Fancy does not make good History, it ruins it.
> > That's why your Magdagaggi fancies are worthless, as far as science is concerned. They belong at best to back-to-Paleolithic sci.fi literature. Try a career as a writer of fictional stuff.
>
> Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake of
> Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed that
> the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic)

At least three languages are encoded in LinearA, NW Semitic, Hurrian and presumably Eteo-Cretan.
There is no such thing as "the language of Linear A".
As usual, you're an incompetent stubborn clownish idiot.

and Robert Stieglitz and Jan
> Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enumeration of cereals:
> on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal, later
> identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
> Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal). Most interesting for
> me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
> of a bull leaper on his feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life
> for The, which allowed me the reconstruction MUC NOS SAI, bull MUC mind NOS
> life SAI, the Minoan bull leaper as emblem of the Minoan astronomer taking
> it up with the orbits of celestial bodies, and explaining both Minos and
> Knossos
>
> MUC NOS SAI Mi NOS (S)
>
> MUC NOS SAI C NOS Sos
>
> Boring? in your eyes, and the eyes of other psy.langers, but I am neither
> you nor them, thank Adu and Dadumatha.

There's no such word as Dadumatha, with -th-
As usual, your perverted invention of non-existing History.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

> Manfred Korfmann, late excavator of Troy, was convinced that the Trojans
> had been Luvians.
>
> The antagonist of Troy was Ahhiyawa (Akhiyawa or Achijawa) Achaia,
> identified as the Peloponnese with Mycene. Its name could go back to
> AChI AD DA, swelling river AChI plus the generic river formula AD DA
> for water flowing toward AD the sea while coming from DA hills or mountains.
> This would go along with AChI )EI or AChI LEi Achilles, comparing the
> fiercest Greek warrior to a river tsunami, swelling water attacking with
> the vehemence of a lion.
>
> Arzawa has been located in Lydia, western Anatolia, and was previously called
> Luwija, land of the Luvians. The origin of the name Arzawa might have been
> ARC AD DA, again the polished river formula AD DA -awa, this time combined
> with a bear ARC (originally a cave bear, then Greek arktos for bear).
> German has bärenstark 'strong like a bear', and reissen 'rip, tear' for both
> a predatory animal killing a prey, eine Beute reissen, and a torrential
> river, ein reissender Fluss. If this etymology holds, also the Luvians
> had been fierce warriors.
>
> Now the question is: where did the Luvians come from? did they cross the
> Dardanelles? or did they come a long way from the East? maybe passing
> Erzurum and the Dalandöken daglari? moving and spreading in a wide arc
> around Hittite territory? finally reaching and overtaking Troy? or just
> blending in?
>
> Tomorrow: deep etymology of Odysseus

Achilles had been attacked by the waves of the river Scamander,
a river called Xanthos by the gods. Greek xanthos named all hues
of copper ore, yellow brown reddish, hence the river attacking
Achilles was the Trojan army, soldiers clad in copper and bronze
armaments. And this confirms AChI )EI or AChI LEI Achilles,
comparing the fierce warrior to a river tsunami striking with
the vehemence of a lion - Achilles met his equal.
Eponymous Tiryns, hero of the Phaistos Disc, Lord Laertes
in Homer’s Odyssey, was the mythological father of Odysseus
whose name might go back to AD DA SAI, again the generic
river formula AD DA but now followed by SAI for life,
together life along rivers, or life as river in the sense of the
title of a French film: La vie est une longue fleuve tranquille,
life is a long and tranquil river. But not always! A river can
swell and flood a plain. Odysseus - 'if there ever was such
a man’ (Homer) - got angry, Greek odyssomai ‘be angry’.

What was the reason of his anger? The Mycenaean tin came
from Central Asia and was bound to pass the Dardanelles
where the Trojans laid hands on the precious cargo -
abducting Helen of the white arms, Homeric personification
of tin, her husband xanthos Menelaos the symbol of copper,
and their daughter lovely Hermione who resembled golden
Aphrodite the symbol of bronze, alloy of copper and tin,
of a golden shine when freshly cast. Abducting beautiful
Helen means confiscating tin destined for Mycenae which
led to a series of incidents that culminated in the Trojan War.

Polyphem is the Homeric symbol of Troy VIIa, his one eye
the acropolis overlooking the river plain, his body downtown
Troy, his cave the harbor in the Besik bay, his goats and sheep
foreign ships, and their milk high fees foreign sailors had to
pay for waiting in the harbor until a favorable wind came up.

The Greek ships were horses, resting in the mouthing area
of the Simois and Scamander, mosquito infested swamps
explaining the malaria episode in the Iliad.

The war dragged on. Then wily Odysseus had an idea.
He let a seemingly abandoned ship drift along the Aegean
shore and pass the Besik bay. The guards of the harbor
hauled it in - whereupon hidden Achaean soldiers leapt out
and took the guards by surprise. The castel, some three
kilometers away, was alarmed. The Trojan army sped
to the harbor. Meanwhile Achaean archers hiding near
the stronghold, shot fire arrows over the cyclopic wall
and burned down the acropolis - blinding Polyphem,
as it were.

Poseidon and Apollo got so angry that they made the
Simois and Sarcamander swell and sweep away all vestiges
of the Greek camps, as related in the middle of the Iliad,
end of book 12.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 1:48:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> There's no such word as Dadumatha, with -th-
> As usual, your perverted invention of non-existing History.

No, you barren scatologist. Walther Hinz explains why it was a th. You
ignore my long and explicit messages, then you point out a missing point
in a summary, one of the many tricks in psy.lang. And while you can't
shed light on the past, neither the Hurrians nor the Luvians, I can with
my alternative approach to early language and my skills in recognizing
symbols and reading visual language. Here is Mi-Nu-The on another Linear A
tablet, read in my way as bull (representing a celestial body) and visual
pun of a bull leaper standing on his hands feet hands (emblem of the Minoan
astronomer) and stylized tree of life (astronomy was absolutely important
for a seafaring nation, basis of their life)

http://www.seshat.ch/home/minos.jpg

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

i - Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

ii - The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

iii - Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

iv - Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

v - You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

vi - On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

vii - Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

viii - On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

ix - To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

x - And your tastes in music still suck.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

I) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

II) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

III) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

IV) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

V) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

VI) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

VII) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

VIII) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

IX) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

X) And your tastes in music still suck

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le samedi 9 novembre 2019 09:54:40 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 1:48:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > There's no such word as Dadumatha, with -th-
> > As usual, your perverted invention of non-existing History.
>
> No, you barren scatologist. Walther Hinz explains why it was a th.

Walther Hinz is a specialist of Iran, you unlearnable donkey.
Why should I trust him??
Da-du-ma-ta makes perfect sense with Hurrian: Dadum-Atta "loved by the father"
No need for th in atta.
CQFD.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 10:16:48 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> Le samedi 9 novembre 2019 09:54:40 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 1:48:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > >
> > > There's no such word as Dadumatha, with -th-
> > > As usual, your perverted invention of non-existing History.
> >
> > No, you barren scatologist. Walther Hinz explains why it was a th.
>
> Walther Hinz is a specialist of Iran, you unlearnable donkey.
> Why should I trust him??
> Da-du-ma-ta makes perfect sense with Hurrian: Dadum-Atta "loved by the father"
> No need for th in atta.
> CQFD.

The language of Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is Northwest Semitic, and
the name is Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Hadda Baal). Your logic:
the language is Hurrian, ergo Dadumata, cqfd. No, you just return to your
own paradigm of the language being Hurrian, which is called a vicious circle,
often found in psy.lang.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 10:05:57 AM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:
> I) Cave art gives us no clue
>

> II) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue

* Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
* history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
* attacking women. Then he joined sci.lang in early 2006 and attacked
* me out of the blue. May my head burst, he wrote in a stilted German,
* the sooner the more betterer. He applied what I call the strategy
* of the weak dog: find a weaker dog than yourself, bite him and hope
* to climb the social ladder. Only that I am no weak dog. Ever since
* he follows me around, commanding a shadow army of braying aliasses.
* He attacks also others under different names in the same thread.
* One of his pseudonyms had been Der psychopathsiche Entdärmer (sic)
* 'the psychopathic eviscerator'. Using his real name he wrote that
* he has plenty ideas of what he could do to me with a knife, alas,
* the law still considers me a human being with rights. He tried and
* tries everything to obstruct my work and ruin my threads. About my
* brief summary of Homer's Odyssey, work of decades, he bragged that
* he could write such a piece within a quarter of an hour - only that
* we never see anything like it from him. Once he told me in all earnest
* that I can't understand the epic when I read the Greek original,
* I must read the Finnish translation! A barren mind paired with
* a burning ambition results in craving power. He must govern sci.lang
* with a little textbook half-knowledge. He must make the rules.
* Unable of arguing on the topic level he operates most of the time
* on meta-levels and drops verdicts from above, not even knowing
* what meta-level means, claiming that I call my work a meta-level,
* proudly parading his exemplary typeryys, endlessly repeating his
* manifesto of a prematurely withered mind.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le samedi 9 novembre 2019 10:27:44 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 10:16:48 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > Le samedi 9 novembre 2019 09:54:40 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > > On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 1:48:15 PM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There's no such word as Dadumatha, with -th-
> > > > As usual, your perverted invention of non-existing History.
> > >
> > > No, you barren scatologist. Walther Hinz explains why it was a th.
> >
> > Walther Hinz is a specialist of Iran, you unlearnable donkey.
> > Why should I trust him??
> > Da-du-ma-ta makes perfect sense with Hurrian: Dadum-Atta "loved by the father"
> > No need for th in atta.
> > CQFD.
>
> The language of Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is Northwest Semitic, and
> the name is Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Hadda Baal).

The stem da(')d- is Akkadian, whence Hurrian.
Ugaritic is yd "to love", from North-West Semitic *wad(d)- "to love"
See DUL3 p.941
As usual, your claims are incompetent unsupported BS.

Your logic:
> the language is Hurrian, ergo Dadumata, cqfd. No, you just return to your
> own paradigm of the language being Hurrian, which is called a vicious circle,
> often found in psy.lang.

Such names exist in Hurrian, like Tadum-Hebat, loved by Hebat.
Nothing vicious, just competent supported data-based analyses.

You owe me 30 Swiss Francs for this consultation. How do you plan to pay?

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

1. Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

2. The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

3. Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

4. Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

5. You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

6. On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

7. Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

8. On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

9. To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

10. And your tastes in music still suck.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

1. Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

2. The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

3. Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

4. Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

5. You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

6. On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

7. Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

8. On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

9. To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

10. And your tastes in music still suck.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

> Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake of
> Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed that
> the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic) and Robert Stieglitz and Jan
> Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enumeration of cereals:
> on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal, later
> identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
> Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal). Most interesting for
> me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
> of a bull leaper on his feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life
> for The, which allowed me the reconstruction MUC NOS SAI, bull MUC mind NOS
> life SAI, the Minoan bull leaper as emblem of the Minoan astronomer taking
> it up with the orbits of celestial bodies, and explaining both Minos and
> Knossos
>
> MUC NOS SAI Mi NOS (S)
>
> MUC NOS SAI C NOS Sos
>

The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon recognized
Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense. Ugaritic
has d-d-m-sh for the goddess, and Yigael Yadin found her name in the form
of d-d-y-m-sh on a Hebrew seal from Tell Djemmeh (1960). Hence the final
syllable was pronounced tha, as in English (ta and tha are given by the same
sign, and Hinz remarks that Linear A and B were botched scripts). We have
then ma-tha, she 'loved by matha'. Matha is known from Sinai inscriptions
(published by Hinz in a journal). Semitic matha means 'chief, lord, master'.
Dadumatha was 'loved by the master' a-du Haddu Baal (later on young god,
Minoan Zeus). The language of Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is northwest
Semitic, as 'predicted' by Gordon.

The word mi-nu-te means 'wheat from mu-nu-ti-um Ugaritic mnt' better known
as Ebla in Syria (some forty kilometers south of Aleppo), by then a fertile
river oasis.

Follows my development.

I read mi-nu-te as 'wheat from Ebla' and Mi-Nu-The as New Ebla in the West,
kingdom of Minos, the kings called Minos residing at Knossos. Minnith in
Ezekiel 27:17 - "wheat of Minnith" - mentioned by Hinz can't have been Ebla
but was a further New Ebla, this time in the South, on the fertile altiplano
of Jordania.

The Minoans came from Ebla. Mi-Nu-The is given much the same way in Hiero-
glyphic Minoan, Linear A and Linear B

Mi head of a bull
Nu visual pun a bull leaper, a young man or girl on feet hands feet
The a stylized tree of life

Mi-Nu-The on another Linear A tablet from Hagia Triada

http://www.seshat.ch/home/minos.jpg

Enter Magdalenian

MUC for bull, became Mi
NOS for mind, became Nu (Greek nous)
SAI for life, became The

MUC NOS SAI Mi No S Minos
MUC NOS SAI C NOS S Knossos

Baal rose as golden calf = morning sun from the tree of life, while the Stone
Age bull was the moon (Marie E.P. König). The bull leaper standing on his
or her feet (before the bull) hands (on the bull) and feet again (behind the
bull) symbolizes astronomy, the art of calculating cycles of celestial bodies.
And the tree of life says that astronomy was vital for the seafaring Minoans
(as it had been for navigating the Syrian desert).

A lunisolar calendar is encoded in the myth of Minotaur in the labyrinth
(Linear B da-pu-ri-to) of Knossos. A minotaur, half bull half man, was
already known in Ebla.

New idea: Ebla might perhaps go back to AC BLA, expanse of land with water
AC black BLA (inverse of white ALB), naming the fertile river oases for its
'black earth', parallel to misr 'black' that names Egypt as land of the
fertile river oasis. Ebla must have been equally fertile as the Nile Valley.

How sad what happens in Syrian now!

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

a) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

b) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

c) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

d) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

e) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

f) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

g) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

h) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

i) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

j) And your tastes in music still suck.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 09:55:34 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> > Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake of
> > Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed that
> > the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic) and Robert Stieglitz and Jan
> > Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enumeration of cereals:
> > on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal, later
> > identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
> > Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal). Most interesting for
> > me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
> > of a bull leaper on his feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life
> > for The, which allowed me the reconstruction MUC NOS SAI, bull MUC mind NOS
> > life SAI, the Minoan bull leaper as emblem of the Minoan astronomer taking
> > it up with the orbits of celestial bodies, and explaining both Minos and
> > Knossos
> >
> > MUC NOS SAI Mi NOS (S)
> >
> > MUC NOS SAI C NOS Sos
> >
>
> The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon recognized
> Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.

The correct parsing is Hurrian dadum + atta, "loved by the father".

Ugaritic
> has d-d-m-sh for the goddess, and Yigael Yadin found her name in the form
> of d-d-y-m-sh on a Hebrew seal from Tell Djemmeh (1960). Hence the final
> syllable was pronounced tha, as in English (ta and tha are given by the same
> sign, and Hinz remarks that Linear A and B were botched scripts). We have
> then ma-tha, she 'loved by matha'. Matha is known from Sinai inscriptions
> (published by Hinz in a journal). Semitic matha means 'chief, lord, master'.
> Dadumatha was 'loved by the master' a-du Haddu Baal (later on young god,
> Minoan Zeus). The language of Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is northwest
> Semitic, as 'predicted' by Gordon.
>
> The word mi-nu-te means 'wheat from mu-nu-ti-um Ugaritic mnt' better known
> as Ebla in Syria (some forty kilometers south of Aleppo), by then a fertile
> river oasis.

Ebla was destroyed several centuries before Linear A came into being.

[Ymir]

On 2019-11-11 3:31 a.m., Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 09:55:34 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
>>> Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 as deciphered by Walther Hinz in the wake of
>>> Cyrus H. Gordon (who was panished with an icy silence when he proposed that
>>> the language of Linear A is Northwest Semitic) and Robert Stieglitz and Jan
>>> Best, is highly informative, although being 'just' an enumeration of cereals:
>>> on one side a list of cereals for the priests of Adu (Haddu Baal, later
>>> identified as Zeus), and the other side of cereals for the priestesses of
>>> Dadumatha, she loved by the master (Adu Haddu Baal). Most interesting for
>>> me is the place name Mi-Nu-The given as head of a bull for Mi, a visual pun
>>> of a bull leaper on his feet hands feet for Nu, and an abstract tree of life
>>> for The, which allowed me the reconstruction MUC NOS SAI, bull MUC mind NOS
>>> life SAI, the Minoan bull leaper as emblem of the Minoan astronomer taking
>>> it up with the orbits of celestial bodies, and explaining both Minos and
>>> Knossos
>>>
>>> MUC NOS SAI Mi NOS (S)
>>>
>>> MUC NOS SAI C NOS Sos
>>>
>>
>> The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon recognized
>> Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.
>
> The correct parsing is Hurrian dadum + atta, "loved by the father".

I'm surprised that no one has commented on the obvious connection
between 'da-du' and 'diode'.

André


--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail
service.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 5:31:15 AM UTC-5, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 09:55:34 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :

> > The word mi-nu-te means 'wheat from mu-nu-ti-um Ugaritic mnt' better known
> > as Ebla in Syria (some forty kilometers south of Aleppo), by then a fertile
> > river oasis.
>
> Ebla was destroyed several centuries before Linear A came into being.

Which is not relevant to what may or may not be found in common between
a putative West Semitic language in Linear A and an East Semitic language
in Ebla.

Plenty of words in Arabic have cognates in Akkadian.

(Ugarit is not Ebla, Franz. Their languages belong to the two
different branches of Semitic languages and are attested nearly 1000
years apart.)

[Daud Deden]

> > > Walther Hinz is a specialist of Iran, you unlearnable donkey.
> > > Why should I trust him??

> > > Da-du-ma-ta makes perfect sense with Hurrian: Dadum-Atta "loved by the father" AF

That is interesting, as a ceramic sherd had an inscription 'daudum' found someplace near Ebla or Elba iirc. (Alice Lindsley claimed Hurrians were Horites, a sort of Hebrew priesthood linked to Egyptian Horus cult.) Re. Andre's comment on 'diode', dio/theo/dzeus/, possibly the sun & moon were each eye of the sky father, but also (to females) mother earth's nipples bringing nourishment/love to the crops.

Mata@Mly: eye, a pupil, a point
matahari@Mly: eye of the day, sun
dua@Mly, Ltn: 2

[Ymir]

On 2019-11-11 8:31 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
>
>>>> Walther Hinz is a specialist of Iran, you unlearnable donkey.
>>>> Why should I trust him??
>>>> Da-du-ma-ta makes perfect sense with Hurrian: Dadum-Atta "loved by the father" AF
>
> That is interesting, as a ceramic sherd had an inscription 'daudum' found someplace near Ebla or Elba iirc. (Alice Lindsley claimed Hurrians were Horites, a sort of Hebrew priesthood linked to Egyptian Horus cult.) Re. Andre's comment on 'diode', dio/theo/dzeus/, possibly the sun & moon were each eye of the sky father, but also (to females) mother earth's nipples bringing nourishment/love to the crops.

I suspect you need to adjust your sarcasm detector.

[Daud Deden]

https://youtu.be/LiMuuciJ-3Y

[Italo]

Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:

> Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 09:55:34 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :

> > The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon recognized
> > Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.
>
> The correct parsing is Hurrian dadum + atta, "loved by the father".

No. It is obviously connected to the linear-b title duma to which also belong the forms du-ma-te, a-du-ma-ta, me-ri-du-ma-te, po-ro-du-ma-te, po-ru-da-ma-te.
Phrygian duma- is also a borrowing from the same source.






















--

b o y c o t t a m e r i c a n p r o d u c t s

[Italo]

Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:

>
<snip>

> The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon recognized
> Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense. Ugaritic
> has d-d-m-sh for the goddess, and Yigael Yadin found her name in the form
> of d-d-y-m-sh on a Hebrew seal from Tell Djemmeh (1960). Hence the final
> syllable was pronounced tha, as in English (ta and tha are given by the same
> sign, and Hinz remarks that Linear A and B were botched scripts). We have
> then ma-tha, she 'loved by matha'. Matha is known from Sinai inscriptions
> (published by Hinz in a journal). Semitic matha means 'chief, lord, master'.
> Dadumatha was 'loved by the master' a-du Haddu Baal (later on young god,
> Minoan Zeus). The language of Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95 is northwest
> Semitic, as 'predicted' by Gordon.

<snip>

> A lunisolar calendar is encoded in the myth of Minotaur in the labyrinth
> (Linear B da-pu-ri-to) of Knossos. A minotaur, half bull half man, was
> already known in Ebla.

<snip>

I wonder if "da-" in da-pu-ri-to isn't the same prefix as in da-du-ma-ta. Soysal sees such a prefix in Hattic: "ta2- Definition: Präformatives Element bei Nomina. Beispiele: ta–bar–na, ta–wana–na,".

[Italo]

Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:

> > Well then, Luvian. It was also known in Troy, considering the bronze seal
> > inscribed with Luvian hieroglyphs, one side honoring a male scribe and
> > the other a female scribe.

But the Luwian seal comes from Troy VIIb2 which is at least a century after the destruction of Homeric Troy. For comparison, the Mycenaean seal from nearby Besiktepe (the supposed Achaean camp) dates to Troy VIh.

<snip>

> Now the question is: where did the Luvians come from? did they cross the
> Dardanelles? or did they come a long way from the East?

I say they moved from east to west, first to Purushattum as allies/proxies of Sargon. Later the Hittites may have replaced the deported population of Arzawa with Luwians.

<snip>

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 22:26:03 UTC+1, Italo a écrit :
> Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:
>
> > Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 09:55:34 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
>
> > > The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon recognized
> > > Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.
> >
> > The correct parsing is Hurrian dadum + atta, "loved by the father".
>
> No. It is obviously connected to the linear-b title duma to which also belong the forms du-ma-te, a-du-ma-ta, me-ri-du-ma-te, po-ro-du-ma-te, po-ru-da-ma-te.

No, there's nothing "obvious" [sic]
just phonetic chance coincidences.

> Phrygian duma- is also a borrowing from the same source.

vague speculations.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Some people can think on their own, find relevant information, evaluate a
source, recognize symbols, read visual language, and shed light on the past.

Young readers who might one day stumble across my thread (in a time when
the belief in 'hors sol' sound algebra is no longer compulsary) notice that
we have three documents featuring a god or man on one side, a goddess or
woman on the other side, in temporal order: the Phaistos Disc as deciphered
by Derk Ohlenroth, Linear A tablet Hagia Triada 95, and the Luvian bronze
seal from Troy.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 1:50:56 PM UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> (Ugarit is not Ebla, Franz. Their languages belong to the two
> different branches of Semitic languages and are attested nearly 1000
> years apart.)

Religious names and place names are found in more than one place: mu-nu-ti-um
given in cuneiform signs dates from 2,200 BC, Ugaritic has mnt, and Minnith
for (my hypothesis) a New Ebla on the Jordanian altiplano, mentioned by
Eezekiel, and Minoan Minos. The same goddess is called d-d-m-sh in Ugaritic
and d-d-y-m-sh in Hebrew and Da-du-ma-tha in Linear A.

By the way, for Arnaud Fournet: Linear A was preceeded by Hieroglyphic Minoan,
and before one claims Hurrian as language of Linear A one should decipher
an entire Linear A tablet in a convincing way. Relying on just one word or fragment is not enough.

[Arnaud Fournet]

See here:
https://www.thebookedition.com/fr/linear-a-inscriptions-in-mino-hurrian-p-357900.html
It's already done.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 9:49:00 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> See here:
> https://www.thebookedition.com/fr/linear-a-inscriptions-in-mino-hurrian-p-357900.html
> It's already done.

Again hiding behind a pay-wall. You can't post it here. This, and your
general behaving tells me all.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

i Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

ii The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

iii Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

iv Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

v You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

vi On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

vii Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

viii On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

ix To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

x And your tastes in music still suck.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

a: Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

b: The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

c: Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

d: Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

e: You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

f: On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

g: Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

h: On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

i: To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

j: And your tastes in music still suck.

[Italo]

Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:

> Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 22:26:03 UTC+1, Italo a écrit :
> > Arnaud Fournet <fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef:
> >
> > > Le lundi 11 novembre 2019 09:55:34 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> >
> > > > The name Dadumatha was first read as da-du-ma-ta. Cyrus H. Gordon recognized
> > > > Ugaritic dd 'loved' in da-du. 'Loved by matha' ? Made no sense.
> > >
> > > The correct parsing is Hurrian dadum + atta, "loved by the father".
> >
> > No. It is obviously connected to the linear-b title duma to which also belong the forms du-ma-te, a-du-ma-ta, me-ri-du-ma-te, po-ro-du-ma-te, po-ru-da-ma-te.
>
> No, there's nothing "obvious" [sic]

It is no more as common sense to consider that the Myceneans in their takeover of the Minoan administrative system also adopted some of the titulature.

> just phonetic chance coincidences.
>
>
> > Phrygian duma- is also a borrowing from the same source.
>
> vague speculations.

"Pelasgian" was still spoken in Phrygia Minor (Hellespontine Phrygia) at the time of Herodotus. Trojan names were regularly glossed as "Phrygian" merely because of the later geographical name. I bet that there are substrate words in Phrygian inscriptions also. Is it a fact to you that Phrygian duma- (which seems related to the name Dymas - father of Trojan queen Hecuba) is an inherited IE word (and etymologized as such - to Gr. domos "house" or demo "build") ?

[Arnaud Fournet]

Vague speculations again. Obscurus ex obscuriori.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 10:47:34 AM UTC+1, Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski wrote:

> a: Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.
>
> b: The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue

** Panu Petteri Höglund of the Slavic alias got no clue but has a long
** history of aggression. Once he posted ugly messages to soc.men,
** attacking women. Then he joined sci.lang in early 2006 and attacked
** me out of the blue. May my head burst, he wrote in a stilted German,
** the sooner the more betterer. He applied what I call the strategy
** of the weak dog: find a weaker dog than yourself, bite him and hope
** to climb the social ladder. Only that I am no weak dog. Ever since
** he follows me around, commanding a shadow army of braying aliasses.
** He attacks also others under different names in the same thread.
** One of his pseudonyms had been Der psychopathsiche Entdärmer (sic)
** 'the psychopathic eviscerator'. Using his real name he wrote that
** he has plenty ideas of what he could do to me with a knife, alas,
** the law still considers me a human being with rights. He tried and
** tries everything to obstruct my work and ruin my threads. About my
** brief summary of Homer's Odyssey, work of decades, he bragged that
** he could write such a piece within a quarter of an hour - only that
** we never see anything like it from him. Once he told me in all earnest
** that I can't understand the epic when I read the Greek original,
** I must read the Finnish translation! A barren mind paired with
** a burning ambition results in craving power. He must govern sci.lang
** with a little textbook half-knowledge. He must make the rules.
** Unable of arguing on the topic level he operates most of the time
** on meta-levels and drops verdicts from above, not even knowing
** what meta-level means, claiming that I call my work a meta-level,
** proudly parading his exemplary typeryys.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 9:55:34 AM UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

Ebla was inhabited from 4000 BC till 700 AD, and Crete already in Neolithic
times. The Early Bronze Age of Ebla began in 2700 BC, the Early Minoan period
somewhat before 2600 BC. Ebla was engaged in long-distance trading. I guess
they had an outpost in Crete, which grew and grew, and was much enlarged
when Sargon of Akkad (or Naram Sin) destroyed the palace of Ebla in the 23rd
century BC, followed by marauding Amurrites.

Ebla was immensely rich. The kingdom might have extended as far as Damascus.
Ebla in the form of mu-nu-ti-um appears on a cuneiform document from 2200 BC.
Ugaritic has mnt. And New Ebla in the west would have been called Mi-Nu-The,
kingdom of Minos, name and title of every Minoan king, rendered much in the
same way in Hieroglyphic Minoan, Linear A and B - as head of a bull for Mi,
visual pun of a bull leaper on feet hands feet for Nu, and a strongly
stylized tree of life for The. The persistence of this ensemble of signs
over a long period of time speaks for its importance.

Apparently the Minoans abandoned cuneiforms and invented a hieroglyphic script
which was later on developed into Linear A. Minoan Crete, laboratory of early
writing.

The supreme weather god of the Hurrians was Teshup or Teshpak, the one of the
Semites Baal in the form of Haddu, mentioned as a-du on the Linear A tablet
Hagia Triada 95. Baal as Haddu was implored for rain. Who was Dadumatha,
she loved by the master a-du Haddu Baal?

She might have been the supreme Minoan goddess Britomartis, implored for rain
by the inscription on the altar stone of Mallia, deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth:
May the goddess let it rain.

So the cereals for Haddu and Dadumatha listed up on HT95 should mollify
him and her. Otherwise they might cause a drought, and Britomartis turn
into Lousia the Angry One, while Demeter-Elaia from Phigalia turned into
Black Demeter-Melaina who caused a famine, commemorated as Demeter Eryns
by Pausanias, Demeter as one of the Furies.

Derk Ohlenroth deciphered not only the Phaistos Disc and altar stone
inscription of Mallia but also the short inscription on a bronze double axe
from the cult cave Arkalochori in Central Crete: I belong to the goddess
Lousia. Three signs correspond to Phaistos Disc hieroglyphs, while one side
of the disc is devoted to Demeter-Elaia and her daughter Nyx who gave oracles.

All hangs together, centered in agriculture, from a time when people could
not just go a few blocks down to a supermarket and get everything they needed.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 10:28:32 PM UTC+1, Italo wrote:
>
> I wonder if "da-" in da-pu-ri-to isn't the same prefix as in da-du-ma-ta. Soysal sees such a prefix in Hattic: "ta2- Definition: Präformatives Element bei Nomina. Beispiele: ta–bar–na, ta–wana–na,".
>

Hinz mentions da-pu-ri-to for labyrinth as ultimate example of how botched
a script Linear B is, the same for Linear A. Gordon was right, Ugaritic dd
Minoan da-du 'loved', loved by the master a-du Haddu Baal, Da-du-ma-tha
Ugaritic d-d-m-sh Hebrew d-d-y-m-sh.

[Arnaud Fournet]

There's not a shred of evidence for Minoans using cuneiform.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

1) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

2) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

3) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

4) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

5) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

6) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

7) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

8) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

9) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

10) And your tastes in music still suck.

[Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski]

Alpha) Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira spoke.

Beta) The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

Gamma) Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

Delta) Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of conclusions must be "nachvollziehbar" by other scholars.

Epsilon) You have not been able to present us with either evidence or conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn over people who have demanded such things.

Zeta) On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be "nachvollzogen".

Eta) Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and comparison of the languages involved.

Theta) On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic language. You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have

learnt languages unknown to you.

Iota) To sum up, Magdalenian fails miserably already on the level of scientific method, which you disparagingly call "meta-level". Thus, no more discussion is needed.

Kappa) And your tastes in music still suck.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 3:10:19 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 10:28:32 PM UTC+1, Italo wrote:

> > I wonder if "da-" in da-pu-ri-to isn't the same prefix as in da-du-ma-ta. Soysal sees such a prefix in Hattic: "ta2- Definition: Präformatives Element bei Nomina. Beispiele: ta–bar–na, ta–wana–na,".
> >
>
> Hinz mentions da-pu-ri-to for labyrinth as ultimate example of how botched
> a script Linear B is,

"Botched"??

Clearly, the language for which Linear B was devised (not Greek) didn't
distinguish l from r (like many of the world's languages), and in this
word (and elsewhere?), if it indeed is "labyrinth," l was rendered with d.

Many scripts don't bother distinguishing voiced and voiceless, or maybe
aspirated and unaspirated, stops, and we happen to have a convention of
transliterating this sign as -pu- rather than -bu-. (We already know that
Franz is unable to comprehend the notion of transliteration, so his lack
of understanding that y and u are the same sound has already been dealt
with). And, like most CV syllabaries, a means for dealing with closed
syllables (CVC) has been invented. In this case, ignore a final nasal
stop (or perhaps it's ignore a nasal at the start of a homorganic cluster).

If da-pu-ri-to is in fact the Greek word borrowed into English as
"labyrinth," then it is spelled as well as could be done with a CV
syllabary devised for a language with a smaller consonant inventory.

Is that meta-argument? Then so be it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Or, I think, ever having seen a cuneiform inscription, either on an
imported object or on a clay tablet.

Compare the object still known as the "Caylus Vase," a ceramic object
from Achaemenid-period Egypt with inscriptions in both hieroglyphs and
cuneiform.

[Italo]

Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:

> On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 10:28:32 PM UTC+1, Italo wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if "da-" in da-pu-ri-to isn't the same prefix as in da-du-ma-ta. Soysal sees such a prefix in Hattic: "ta2- Definition: Präformatives Element bei Nomina. Beispiele: ta–bar–na, ta–wana–na,".
> >
>
> Hinz mentions da-pu-ri-to for labyrinth as ultimate example of how botched
> a script Linear B is, the same for Linear A.

Linear-B da-pu-ri-to / da-pu2-ri-to- "labyrinth" belongs with linear-B da-pu2-ra-zo / du-pu2-ra-zo, from linear-A du-pu2-re / du-pu3-re "lord". Which compares to Hattic tabarna "lord", prefix ta- root -bar- affix -na.
Another example put forward by Soysal: Taḫakšaziyati vs. Ḫakš[aziyati] (Sungoddess of the town Kakšaz) Soysal:"notwithstanding the indeterminable exact function of the prefix ta-, both names refer to the very same deity."

> Gordon was right, Ugaritic dd
> Minoan da-du 'loved', loved by the master a-du Haddu Baal, Da-du-ma-tha
> Ugaritic d-d-m-sh Hebrew d-d-y-m-sh.

First consider where linear-B (and Phrygian) has got this non-Greek title, duma (as in po-ro-du-ma-te / po-ru-da-ma-te - the first element would be Greek pro- or poly-).
From the pre-Greek of course, from Minoan. and Minoan is not Ugaritic.

[Italo]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> schreef:

Two imported cylinder seals with cuneiform were found on Crete. 18th c bce, apparently.

[Italo]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> schreef:

> On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 3:10:19 AM UTC-5, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
> > On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 10:28:32 PM UTC+1, Italo wrote:
>
> > > I wonder if "da-" in da-pu-ri-to isn't the same prefix as in da-du-ma-ta. Soysal sees such a prefix in Hattic: "ta2- Definition: Präformatives Element bei Nomina. Beispiele: ta–bar–na, ta–wana–na,".
> > >
> >
> > Hinz mentions da-pu-ri-to for labyrinth as ultimate example of how botched
> > a script Linear B is,
>
> "Botched"??
>
> Clearly, the language for which Linear B was devised (not Greek) didn't
> distinguish l from r (like many of the world's languages), and in this
> word (and elsewhere?), if it indeed is "labyrinth," l was rendered with d.
>
> Many scripts don't bother distinguishing voiced and voiceless, or maybe
> aspirated and unaspirated, stops, and we happen to have a convention of
> transliterating this sign as -pu- rather than -bu-.

or -phu-

> (We already know that
> Franz is unable to comprehend the notion of transliteration, so his lack
> of understanding that y and u are the same sound has already been dealt
> with). And, like most CV syllabaries, a means for dealing with closed
> syllables (CVC) has been invented. In this case, ignore a final nasal
> stop (or perhaps it's ignore a nasal at the start of a homorganic cluster).
>
> If da-pu-ri-to is in fact the Greek word borrowed into English as
> "labyrinth," then it is spelled as well as could be done with a CV
> syllabary devised for a language with a smaller consonant inventory.
>
> Is that meta-argument? Then so be it.

Apropos those d/l and l/r matters; since da-du-ma-ta comes from Hagia-Triada, which is in the territory of Phaistos, and Phaistos is linked to Rhadamanthus (as Knossos is to Minos),
Suppose da-du-ma-ta became pronounced *ladumantha (like da-pu-ri-to : laburinthos) - but how could in turn l- change into rh- of Rhadamanthus.. as the change is always from r to l, the other way around is not possible..?

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 9:39:24 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
>
> There's not a shred of evidence for Minoans using cuneiform.
>

How stoopeed can you get? I wrote explicitely that the Minoans abandoned
cuneiforms that had been used at mu-nu-ti-um / Ebla and instead invented
a hieroglyphic script which they later on developed into Linear A.
Minoan Crete was a laboratory of early writing.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 3:47:31 PM UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> "Botched"??
>
> Clearly, the language for which Linear B was devised (not Greek) didn't
> distinguish l from r (like many of the world's languages), and in this
> word (and elsewhere?), if it indeed is "labyrinth," l was rendered with d.
>
> Many scripts don't bother distinguishing voiced and voiceless, or maybe
> aspirated and unaspirated, stops, and we happen to have a convention of
> transliterating this sign as -pu- rather than -bu-. (We already know that
> Franz is unable to comprehend the notion of transliteration, so his lack
> of understanding that y and u are the same sound has already been dealt
> with). And, like most CV syllabaries, a means for dealing with closed
> syllables (CVC) has been invented. In this case, ignore a final nasal
> stop (or perhaps it's ignore a nasal at the start of a homorganic cluster).
>
> If da-pu-ri-to is in fact the Greek word borrowed into English as
> "labyrinth," then it is spelled as well as could be done with a CV
> syllabary devised for a language with a smaller consonant inventory.
>
> Is that meta-argument? Then so be it.

Why do you write labyrinth? why does everybody write labyrinth instead
of correctly laburinth? and sumphony? End of message, I need my time for
proposing an etymology of laburinth Linear B dapurito.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

Pondering the etymology of labyrinth given as dapurito in Linear B led me
to a Sumerian myth of creation in a Babylonian version. The first people were
immortal and procreated. Ever more and more of them populated the earth and
made such a racket that Enlil could no longer sleep. The gods decided to
eliminate the human race. Enlil created a horrible monster called Labbu,
a giant snake. Labbu devoured most humans, and was such an awful beast that
it was feared by all gods. One of them succeeded in killing it, whereupon
its blood flew for three days. The mother-goddess was outraged because of
the almost complete extinction of humanity. Finally a compromise was reached.
The surviving humans were allowed to live on, but became mortal, so they
would no longer over-populate the world.

Labbu might account for laby- dapu-. Now for -rinth -rito. The closest match
is Greek rhytaer 'archer; guard, protector'. Dragons lived in caves. Many
big caves are labyrinths of gangways. A labyrinth might originally have been
such a cave guarded by an imaginary dragon - a mini-Labbu, as it were -
whose evil breath might have been a sulfuric gas emerging from a cleft in
the rock. Consider also Hebrew laba for lava.

Another man-eating monster inhabited the labyrinth of Knossos, Minotaur.

Actually, the myth of Minotaur encodes a lunisolar calendar, and the labyrinth
symbolizes the complicated astronomical calculations carried out in offices
of the labyrinthic palace of Knossos.

Maybe also the Babylonian myth of Labbu was concerned about time. As long
as people were immortal, time was of no importance. But then Labbu ended
their lives. And the final compromise: we are given a limited lifetime.

Let us make the best of it.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 11:50:40 PM UTC+1, Italo wrote:
>
> Linear-B da-pu-ri-to / da-pu2-ri-to- "labyrinth" belongs with linear-B da-pu2-ra-zo / du-pu2-ra-zo, from linear-A du-pu2-re / du-pu3-re "lord". Which compares to Hattic tabarna "lord", prefix ta- root -bar- affix -na.
> Another example put forward by Soysal: Taḫakšaziyati vs. Ḫakš[aziyati] (Sungoddess of the town Kakšaz) Soysal:"notwithstanding the indeterminable exact function of the prefix ta-, both names refer to the very same deity."
>

> First consider where linear-B (and Phrygian) has got this non-Greek title, duma (as in po-ro-du-ma-te / po-ru-da-ma-te - the first element would be Greek pro- or poly-).
> From the pre-Greek of course, from Minoan. and Minoan is not Ugaritic.
>

I just posted my etymology of dapurito labyrinth, explaining dapu- via Labbu.
What do you say about it? Linear A and B are ambivalent, for example Linear B
has 21 expressions for e-ne whose understanding depends on context. Also I
need context, i.e. the translation of an entire document. Hinz delivered such
a decipherment and translation of HT95, a window on the past, conclusive,
leading further.

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 11:51:33 PM UTC+1, Italo wrote:
>
> Two imported cylinder seals with cuneiform were found on Crete. 18th c bce, apparently.

Plenty Syrian cylinder seals were found in the Aegaean, particularly in Crete.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Because that's how they're spelt in English. There is nothing "correct"
about your misspellings. Greek upsilon (υ) has been transliterated as y
in scholarly borrowings for centuries, and usually still is except in
modern non-scholarly words like hubris. There is no reason to prefer u
just on the basis of similarity of shape. Of course, as there is
nothing scholarly about you you wouldn't know this.

> End of message, I need my time for
> proposing an etymology of laburinth Linear B dapurito.

--
athel

[Franz Gnaedinger]

On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 9:06:58 AM UTC+1, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Because that's how they're spelt in English. There is nothing "correct"
> about your misspellings. Greek upsilon (υ) has been transliterated as y
> in scholarly borrowings for centuries, and usually still is except in
> modern non-scholarly words like hubris. There is no reason to prefer u
> just on the basis of similarity of shape. Of course, as there is
> nothing scholarly about you you wouldn't know this.
>

Textbook trivia spiced with an invective, nothing else can be expected
from the sock-puppet of Panu Petteri Höglund the Clueless.

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le jeudi 14 novembre 2019 08:21:45 UTC+1, Franz Gnaedinger a écrit :
> On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 9:39:24 AM UTC+1, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> >
> > There's not a shred of evidence for Minoans using cuneiform.
> >
>
> How stoopeed can you get? I wrote explicitely that the Minoans abandoned
> cuneiforms

You have no proof they ever used cuneiform, so it's complete fallacy, self-delusion and crookery to claim they abandoned it.

that had been used at mu-nu-ti-um / Ebla and instead invented
> a hieroglyphic script which they later on developed into Linear A.
> Minoan Crete was a laboratory of early writing.

100% BS.

[Arnaud Fournet]

The best of it belongs to toilet paper...

[Arnaud Fournet]

Le mercredi 13 novembre 2019 23:50:40 UTC+1, Italo a écrit :
> Franz Gnaedinger <fr...@bluemail.ch> schreef:
>
> > On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 10:28:32 PM UTC+1, Italo wrote:
> > >
> > > I wonder if "da-" in da-pu-ri-to isn't the same prefix as in da-du-ma-ta. Soysal sees such a prefix in Hattic: "ta2- Definition: Präformatives Element bei Nomina. Beispiele: ta–bar–na, ta–wana–na,".
> > >
> >
> > Hinz mentions da-pu-ri-to for labyrinth as ultimate example of how botched
> > a script Linear B is, the same for Linear A.
>
> Linear-B da-pu-ri-to / da-pu2-ri-to- "labyrinth" belongs with linear-B da-pu2-ra-zo / du-pu2-ra-zo, from linear-A du-pu2-re / du-pu3-re "lord". Which compares to Hattic tabarna "lord", prefix ta- root -bar- affix -na.

Several points:

Q1. Where is du-pu3-re attested?

Q2. Da-pu-ri-to and du-pu(2)-re do not have the same stem vowel.

Q3. what is your proof ta- in Tabarna is a prefix?
What does the "root" -bar- mean?

> Another example put forward by Soysal: Taḫakšaziyati vs. Ḫakš[aziyati] (Sungoddess of the town Kakšaz) Soysal:"notwithstanding the indeterminable exact function of the prefix ta-, both names refer to the very same deity."

This of course does not prove that ta- in Tabarna is a prefix...

[Peter T. Daniels]

And nearly half a dozen Indus seals have turned up in southern Mesopotamia.
What could Franz do with that if he knew about it!