rehabilitated words

[retrosorter]

I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
least for the time being, are beyond redemption.

This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.

Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?

[Jerry Friedman]

The best example I know of is "black". "Queer" has had a partial
rehabilitation.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Duggy]

On Mar 10, 9:00 am, retrosorter <hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.

It is all determined by the usage. I knew a woman who proudly called
herself a slut, but was upset when her mother called her one. It
would be the same with the women at the "Reclaim slut" marches,
they're probably upset about they way Rush Limbaugh used it.

I've seen faggot have the same issues.

> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.

Then again it still exists as a term for "lame." Just on Wednesday I
said to a lesbian who said "That's so gay" "You can't use that word,
that's our word for something that's lame."

> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?

Irishman.

===
= DUG.
===

[erilar]

In article
<29587097-4c03-4b07...@hv2g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

retrosorter <hric...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.

You must be very young. "Gay" used to mean cheerful, just as "fairy"
referred to an imaginary magical sprite.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[R H Draney]

retrosorter filted:

"Dwarf" seems to be well on its way....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:00:15 -0800 (PST), retrosorter <hric...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
>believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
>being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
>least for the time being, are beyond redemption.

What did "slut" mean before it degenerated?

The goodness or badness of the meaning of "faggot" is in the eye of the
beholder (or ear of the auditor, if you prefer).

>This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
>can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
>manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.

In my experience it is the other way round.

In the 1950s and 1960s there was a gay subculture, which used the word "gay"
as an approving reference for their own members. The subculture was not
identical with the sexual orientation. There were plenty of homosexual people
back then who had a homosexual sexual orientation but were not part of the gay
subculture, and many of them probably did not even know the word. So "gay" was
to "homosexual" as "gender" is to "sex".

In the 1970s "gay" became more widely known, outside the gay subculture, and
came into general use, and so acquired the neutral meaning of "homosexual".

It was only relatively recently that it came to be used in an insulting
manner, though I know that only by hearsay, not having experienced it myself.
,

>
>Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Eric Walker]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 08:39:26 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

[...]

> What did "slut" mean before it degenerated?

A sloven. Before that, a drudge.

One presumes the progression was that kitchen drudges are habitually
dirty creatures, and from that, that dirty creatures are cheap,
promiscuous creatures.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Duggy]

Or that promiscuous women are "dirty".

===
= DUG.
===

[Peter Moylan]

For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever had a
respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've heard the
word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way that
words like "poofter" have stuck.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[John Varela]

"Gay" IINM was the self-description used within the homosexual
community and, IIRC, someone here traced that usage to the 1920s or
thereabouts. I know I didn't become aware of that meaning until the
mid 1960s. I'm not sure when I first heard "dyke"; probably mid 60s
or after.

WIWAL in the 1940s and 50s the common derogatory slang terms were
"queer", "fairy", and "fruit", applied only to men. I don't recall a
term for lesbians. It may have been thought that they didn't exist.

--
John Varela

[retrosorter]

On Mar 10, 12:47 pm, Peter Moylan <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
wrote:

In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
Increasingly, however, the word is being used as a generalized term
for a "jerk" or a "loser" without an imputation of being homosexual.

[The Welsh Windbag]

"retrosorter" wrote.

>Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?

In the US, the word 'bastard' is in the process of being reclaimed by some
adopted people.

www.bastards.org

--
The Welsh Windbag

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 04:47:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>retrosorter wrote:
>> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
>> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
>> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
>> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>>
>> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
>> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
>> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.
>>
>> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>
>For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever had a
>respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
>continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've heard the
>word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way that
>words like "poofter" have stuck.

And in its other meaning it might be rehabilitated when Mussolini passes out
of living memory.

[Curlytop]

retrosorter set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.

In the UK (northern England especially) faggots still retain their innocent
meaning when served with mushy peas.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[tony cooper]

We are currently watching "Life's Too Short". It's a mock documentary
series about a dwarf - Warwick Davis - and his efforts to give his
film career a jump-start. It's written by Ricky Gervais and Stephen
Merchant, and they frequently appear in the episodes.

Quite funny, but if you watched it for the first time and didn't know
who wrote it, you'd instantly sense it is a Gervais product. The
pretentious, self-absorbed, misanthropic lead - the dwarf - is every
character Gervais plays but in a smaller package.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Duggy]

On Mar 11, 3:47 am, Peter Moylan <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
wrote:

> retrosorter wrote:
> > I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
> > believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
> > being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
> > least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>
> > This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
> > can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
> > manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.
>
> > Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>
> For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever had a
> respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
> continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've heard the
> word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way that
> words like "poofter" have stuck.

Then you and I have a totally different experience of the word
"faggot."

===
= DUG.
===

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 10, 2:20 pm, "The Welsh Windbag" <TheWelshWind...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "retrosorter"  wrote.
>
> >Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>
> In the US, the word 'bastard' is in the process of being reclaimed by some
> adopted people.
>
> www.bastards.org

Given the vast number of children born outside marriage, with no
social stigma, why would adoptees want to "reclaim" it?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.

Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
meaning?

> Increasingly, however, the word is being used as a  generalized term

> for a "jerk" or a "loser" without an imputation of being homosexual.-

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 10, 4:05 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 04:47:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
>
>
>
>
>
> <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >retrosorter wrote:
> >> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
> >> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
> >> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
> >> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>
> >> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
> >> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
> >> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.
>
> >> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>
> >For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever had a
> >respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
> >continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've heard the
> >word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way that
> >words like "poofter" have stuck.
>
> And in its other meaning it might be rehabilitated when Mussolini passes out
> of living memory.

? We call that (a) fasces.

[The Welsh Windbag]

"The Welsh Windbag" wrote:
> In the US, the word 'bastard' is in the process of being reclaimed by some
> adopted people.
>
> www.bastards.org

Peter T. Daniels asked:

>Given the vast number of children born outside marriage, with no
>social stigma, why would adoptees want to "reclaim" it?

I'll let them answer that. This is from the website of Bastard Nation:

What's with the name?

The half-century old practice of impounding and sealing an adopted person's
original birth records in perpetuity has had the disastrous effect of
breeding deep and long lasting attitudes of shame in all areas of the
adoption process. Secrets and lies abound. So we decided to reclaim the term
"Bastard" -- to take it back and make it ours. In so doing, we hope to
explode the myths of shame surrounding adoption and focus attention on the
absolute necessity of changing the laws.

We at Bastard Nation believe that there is NOTHING shameful about having
been born out of wedlock or about being adopted. We selected our name
because we will no longer be made to feel shamed by the odious state laws
that permanently seal our original birth records. We do not fling the word
"bastard" at anyone. Rather, we wear it proudly as we work to achieve our
goal of equal and unconditional access to original birth records for all
adult adoptees.

[tony cooper]

They wouldn't necessarily know the "bundle of sticks" definition, but
they would be more likely to know because they have been reading for
more years and - thus - more likely to have been exposed to that
definition.

[Duggy]

I'm 39, and I know it as "bundle of stick" because at some point in
High School we were told it was the German name for the bassoon and I
have a stupid memory that stores that information. I think I've seen
it used, rarely, in older books or fantasy trying to sound older but
not much.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Mar 11, 5:20 am, "The Welsh Windbag" <TheWelshWind...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "retrosorter"  wrote.
>
> >Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>
> In the US, the word 'bastard' is in the process of being reclaimed by some
> adopted people.
>
> www.bastards.org

The derogatory term has been reclaimed for some time:

http://www.aoob.com.au/

===
= DUG.
===

[Robert Bannister]

I doubt that, but it wasn't illegal in most places.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

Perhaps because we read the unbowderlised, unmodernised versions of the
fairy tales in which old people frequently walked around carrying or
looking for bundles of faggots. There is also the less widespread
northern English "faggot" that is like a rissole. Now, there's a word
that begs to be given a dirty meaning, but as far as I know, it has
escaped that fate.

--
Robert Bannister

[Duggy]

I'd say there was a portion of the population that didn't even know to
think it didn't exist.

But obviously there would have been people who knew about it. Even
outside the lesbian community itself.

===
= DUG.
===

[António Marques]

Even some inside!

[DKleinecke]

OK - Now that you guys solved that puzzle - what is the opposite of "gay"? In my youth I was once told that if a queer made a pass at you and you wanted to be polite about you say "Sorry, I'm jam". I was dubious and never used "jam" as the opposite of "gay" - nor heard it so used. San Francisco Bat Area circa 1950.

[benl...@ihug.co.nz]

Huh! Never heard it myself, but here it is in Chapman's Dictionary of
American Slang (1987): "A heterosexual man (said to be from _just a
man_)".
The common opposite is of course "straight".

[Duggy]

That's just crazy talk.

===
= DUG.
===

[R H Draney]

Duggy filted:
>
>On Mar 11, 8:28=A0am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> On Mar 10, 1:57=A0pm, retrosorter <hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
>> > not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
>>
>> Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.
>>
>> Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
>> meaning?
>
>I'm 39, and I know it as "bundle of stick" because at some point in
>High School we were told it was the German name for the bassoon and I
>have a stupid memory that stores that information. I think I've seen
>it used, rarely, in older books or fantasy trying to sound older but
>not much.

I, under 60 but not under 50, know both meanings (as well as the "meatball"
one), mainly because the stops on the organ I learned to play were marked with
their Italian names....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 10, 6:52 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> On 11/03/12 6:28 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> On Mar 10, 12:47 pm, Peter Moylan<inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> retrosorter wrote:
> >>>> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
> >>>> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
> >>>> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
> >>>> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>
> >>>> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
> >>>> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
> >>>> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.
>
> >>>> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>
> >>> For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever had a
> >>> respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
> >>> continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've heard the
> >>> word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way that
> >>> words like "poofter" have stuck.
>

> >> In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
> >> not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
>
> > Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.
>
> > Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
> > meaning?
>
> Perhaps because we read the unbowderlised, unmodernised versions of the
> fairy tales in which old people frequently walked around carrying or
> looking for bundles of faggots. There is also the less widespread
> northern English "faggot" that is like a rissole. Now, there's a word
> that begs to be given a dirty meaning, but as far as I know, it has
> escaped that fate.

I don't believe those conditions apply to 50-60-year-olds in North
America?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 10, 5:47 pm, "The Welsh Windbag" <TheWelshWind...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Even 50 years ago, it was no "shame" to be adopted.

I don't know that I ever knew anyone who was born out of wedlock, but
even 50 years ago it seemed an odd thing to get upset about.

It is still a shame to have an unwanted baby or to have a baby while
in high school.

[Peter Brooks]

I'd have said that faggots are more like haggis than rissoles.
Rissoles are, these days, commonly sold as rissole sandwiches, but
called 'hamburgers' - why Hamburg should be credited with inventing
the rissole sandwich isn't clear to me.

[Peter Moylan]

Thinking it over, I realise that that's probably because derogatory
"faggot" was an American word that didn't fully make it into AusE. (At
least for my generation. It might have crept in later.) The equivalent
word for us was "fag", and that was nowhere near as strong because it's
a word with multiple meanings.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 07:52:32 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

And perhaps because you did not grow up in North America, outside which most
people probably did not know the "homosexual" meaning, unless they were very
widely-read, until about 1990 or so, when electronic communications made it
possible for people to become aware of other cultures in a way they had not
before.

[Steve Hayes]

You could call it faeces too, but it's still an axe in a faggot.

[Peter T. Daniels]

> the rissole sandwich isn't clear to me.-

"Rissole" isn't even in the MW11C, and AHD5 makes it sound like an
empanada. (What that has to do with either haggis or hamburgers
escapes me.)

"Hamburger" (1884), rather obviously, entered the American language
with the spate of German immigration in that decade, originally as
"Hamburger steak," i.e. a ground meat patty, then a Hamburger
sandwich, under the perhaps mistaken belief that it was typical of the
cuisine of Hamburg. In the "early 20th century," AHD5 says [which
likely means at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, which introduced many
popular foodstuffs], it assumed its present sense of a patty on a bun
with condiments; loss of the connection with Germany and folk
etymology subsequently removed the "ham," yielding "burger,"
"beefburger," etc.

But of course you knew or could easily have looked up all that, but
you prefer to pretend to scorn things you don't understand from places
separated by bodies of water from your little island.

[Peter Brooks]

.

.
>
> But of course you knew or could easily have looked up all that, but
> you prefer to pretend to scorn things you don't understand from places
>

.
.
You said it.

[erilar]

In article <o63pl7h4raj5butq8...@4ax.com>,

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 07:52:32 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 11/03/12 6:28 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
> >>> not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
> >>
> >> Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.
> >>
> >> Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
> >> meaning?
> >
> >Perhaps because we read the unbowderlised, unmodernised versions of the
> >fairy tales in which old people frequently walked around carrying or
> >looking for bundles of faggots. There is also the less widespread
> >northern English "faggot" that is like a rissole. Now, there's a word
> >that begs to be given a dirty meaning, but as far as I know, it has
> >escaped that fate.
>
> And perhaps because you did not grow up in North America, outside which most
> people probably did not know the "homosexual" meaning, unless they were very
> widely-read, until about 1990 or so, when electronic communications made it
> possible for people to become aware of other cultures in a way they had not
> before.

I grew up in the Midwestern USA and fairies were magical creatures for
my first half-century or so.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:32:10 -0500, erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid>
wrote:

And faggots?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 11, 7:35 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 14:29:09 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Mar 10, 4:05 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 04:47:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
> >> <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >> >retrosorter wrote:

> >> >> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
> >> >> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
> >> >> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
> >> >> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>
> >> >> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
> >> >> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
> >> >> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.
>
> >> >> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>
> >> >For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever had a
> >> >respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
> >> >continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've heard the
> >> >word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way that
> >> >words like "poofter" have stuck.
>
> >> And in its other meaning it might be rehabilitated when Mussolini passes out
> >> of living memory.
>
> >? We call that (a) fasces.
>
> You could call it faeces too,

No, I couldn't.

> but it's still an axe in a faggot.

Only if you don't distinguish "sticks" from "rods."

Coincidentally, I received this announcement this afternoon:

>From <http://www.ancientartpodcast.org/SCARABsolutions/Resources/Entries/2012/2/9_Episode_47__Roman_Fasces.html>:
>[Go there for previous podcasts]
>=================================================================================================
>
>Episode 47: Roman Fasces
>
>Just how much can we discuss about a pile of wood? Well, episode 47 of
>the Ancient Art Podcast about the Roman Fasces dares to find out!
>Composed of a bundle of rods with an axe blade sticking out, this
>ancient symbol of solidarity and judicial authority was a very
>recognizable sight in Ancient Rome. We explore the symbolism of the
>fasces, its different makes and models, where it came from and where
>it went. The fasces remains highly popular today on military and
>political crests, emblems, and shields across the world. We'll also be
>introduced to some good Roman citizens, whose careers crossed paths
>with the fasces, including lictors bodyguards, flamen priests, and
>magistrates. Explore more at http://ancientartpodcast.org.

[Dr Nick]

Curlytop <pvstownse...@ntlworld.com> writes:

> retrosorter set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
> continuum:

>
>> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
>> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
>> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
>> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>

> In the UK (northern England especially) faggots still retain their innocent
> meaning when served with mushy peas.

That's two people who've linked faggots with Northern England. I was
born in Lancashire and never encountered faggots as something to eat
until I moved to Gloucestershire.

OK, if you work for the BBC then Glos is clearly the frozen north of
flat caps and whippets. But not for the rest of us.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk

[R H Draney]

Steve Hayes filted:

>
>On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:32:10 -0500, erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <o63pl7h4raj5butq8...@4ax.com>,
>> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>> And perhaps because you did not grow up in North America, outside which most
>>> people probably did not know the "homosexual" meaning, unless they were very
>>> widely-read, until about 1990 or so, when electronic communications made it
>>> possible for people to become aware of other cultures in a way they had not
>>> before.
>>
>>I grew up in the Midwestern USA and fairies were magical creatures for
>>my first half-century or so.
>
>And faggots?

Actor Leonard Frey, known for playing flamboyantly swishy characters, had one of
his earliest film roles as the pot-pushing ship's doctor in "The Magic
Christian"...he announced his name as "Laurence Faggot", pronounced
"fa-GO"...one of Terry Southern's less subtle jokes....r

[MC]

In article <jjiuc...@drn.newsguy.com>,

Reminds me of the Harvey Korman character in Blazing Saddles:

The Hon. William J. Lepetomane.

I wonder how many people got the reference when the film came out (or
since, for that matter).

--

"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones

[Mike L]

On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 07:52:32 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

Classic hearty and delicious working-class South Wales food, too: with
gravy, mashed potatoes and peas. Richer than haggis, I'd say. The
minced-up stuff is enclosed in, I think, mesentery, in a flattened
ball the size of a small fist. Somewhere along the line, somebody
somewhere ill-advisedly tried to posh them up a bit by renaming them
"savoury ducks" - like "Welsh rarebit" for the real name, "Welsh
rabbit".

Note also, that "faggot" is, or was till recently, a term of
opprobrium for an old woman (youngish one too?) one disapproved of,
like "old bag". I think it may have fogeyish implications, but I'm not
quite sure.

--
Mike.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 11, 4:39 pm, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> In article <jjiuci02...@drn.newsguy.com>,

>  R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Steve Hayes filted:
>
> > >On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:32:10 -0500, erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid>
> > >wrote:
>

> > >>In article <o63pl7h4raj5butq8646i3sj36omoo8...@4ax.com>,

> > >> Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> > >>> And perhaps because you did not grow up in North America, outside which
> > >>> most
> > >>> people probably did not know the "homosexual" meaning, unless they were
> > >>> very
> > >>> widely-read, until about 1990 or so, when electronic communications made
> > >>> it
> > >>> possible for people to become aware of other cultures in a way they had
> > >>> not
> > >>> before.
>
> > >>I grew up in the Midwestern USA and fairies were magical creatures for
> > >>my first half-century or so.
>
> > >And faggots?
>
> > Actor Leonard Frey, known for playing flamboyantly swishy characters, had one
> > of his earliest film roles as the pot-pushing ship's doctor in "The Magic
> > Christian"...he announced his name as "Laurence Faggot", pronounced
> > "fa-GO"...one of Terry Southern's less subtle jokes....r
>
> Reminds me of the Harvey Korman character in Blazing Saddles:
>
> The Hon. William J. Lepetomane.
>
> I wonder how many people got the reference when the film came out (or
> since, for that matter).

I saw that on TV once and the sound in the crucial scene was cut out.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

I had heard that it was originaly "tatar steak" which was raw, and
sold in ports like Hamburg, but it got shifted to the cooked variety.

[Duggy]

On Mar 11, 11:38 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Mar 11, 1:49 am, Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 11, 1:52 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > > On 11/03/12 6:28 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> > > >> On Mar 10, 12:47 pm, Peter Moylan<inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
> > > >> wrote:
> > I'd have said that faggots are more like haggis than rissoles.
> > Rissoles are, these days, commonly sold as rissole sandwiches, but
> > called 'hamburgers' - why Hamburg should be credited with inventing
> > the rissole sandwich isn't clear to me.-

> "Rissole" isn't even in the MW11C, and AHD5 makes it sound like an
> empanada. (What that has to do with either haggis or hamburgers
> escapes me.)

A dictionary isn't the best place to find regional usages as names for
food.

This is what the poster is talking above (scroll up for a picture):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rissole

But of course you knew or could easily have looked up all that, but
you prefer to pretend to scorn things you don't understand from places

separated by bodies of water from your little world.

So:

A haggis is offal wrapped in stomach.
A faggot is minced offal wrapped in caul.
A hamburger pattie is flat round mince pattie.
An Australian rissole is like a hamburger pattie, but thicker, smaller
and usually has other ingredients in it.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Mar 12, 2:32 am, erilar <dra...@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
> I grew up in the Midwestern USA and fairies were magical creatures for
> my first half-century or so.

That's the sweetest way I've ever heard homosexuals described.

===
= DUG.
===

[DKleinecke]

Thank You. I don't think "straight" was current for heterosexuals in those days in SF but I don't doubt it was known earlier. The gay community started publishing news letters and the like around 1950 and we could look there for usage - but I suspect most of the early stuff has vanished.

[R H Draney]

MC filted:

>
>In article <jjiuc...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>Actor Leonard Frey, known for playing flamboyantly swishy characters, had one
>> of his earliest film roles as the pot-pushing ship's doctor in "The Magic
>> Christian"...he announced his name as "Laurence Faggot", pronounced
>> "fa-GO"...one of Terry Southern's less subtle jokes....r
>
>Reminds me of the Harvey Korman character in Blazing Saddles:
>
>The Hon. William J. Lepetomane.

That's *Hedley*!...Mel Brooks played LePetomaine (and a Yiddish-speaking Indian
chief)....

>I wonder how many people got the reference when the film came out (or
>since, for that matter).

About as many as knew that there was actually a "fartiste" who performed under
that name at the turn of the 20th century....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

Steak tartare is still steak tartare, presumably from the story that
the Tatars cooked their meat by placing it between horse and saddle
while riding so that it was heated by the friction.

> > sandwich, under the perhaps mistaken belief that it was typical of the
> > cuisine of Hamburg. In the "early 20th century," AHD5 says [which
> > likely means at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, which introduced many
> > popular foodstuffs], it assumed its present sense of a patty on a bun
> > with condiments; loss of the connection with Germany and folk
> > etymology subsequently removed the "ham," yielding "burger,"
> > "beefburger," etc.
>
> > But of course you knew or could easily have looked up all that, but
> > you prefer to pretend to scorn things you don't understand from places

> > separated by bodies of water from your little island.-

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 11, 8:01 pm, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> On Mar 11, 11:38 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 11, 1:49 am, Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mar 11, 1:52 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > > > On 11/03/12 6:28 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> > > > >> On Mar 10, 12:47 pm, Peter Moylan<inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > I'd have said that faggots are more like haggis than rissoles.
> > > Rissoles are, these days, commonly sold as rissole sandwiches, but
> > > called 'hamburgers' - why Hamburg should be credited with inventing
> > > the rissole sandwich isn't clear to me.-
> > "Rissole" isn't even in the MW11C, and AHD5 makes it sound like an
> > empanada. (What that has to do with either haggis or hamburgers
> > escapes me.)
>
> A dictionary isn't the best place to find regional usages as names for
> food.

There was nothing in either informant's postings to suggest that the
word is any more "regional" than UK in general (not even so marked in
AHD5).

> This is what the poster is talking above (scroll up for a picture):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rissole

Yup, empanadas. Nothing remotely resembling either haggis or a
hamburger.

More like the "wellingtons" that Chef Ramsey insists on serving at
Hell's Kitchen all the time.

> But of course you knew or could easily have looked up all that, but
> you prefer to pretend to scorn things you don't understand from places
> separated by bodies of water from your little world.

Not at all. A quaint local foodstuff was offered as equivalent to an
American staple, and it isn't in the slightest.

> So:
>
> A haggis is offal wrapped in stomach.
> A faggot is minced offal wrapped in caul.
> A hamburger pattie is flat round mince pattie.

patty of ground beef. Minced is a different process from ground.

"mince" is a sweet mixture baked into pies around Christmas time; at
one time it involved lard.

> An Australian rissole is like a hamburger pattie, but thicker, smaller
> and usually has other ingredients in it.

patty

The picture of an Australian rissle doesn't look at all like a picture
of a hamburger.

[Peter T. Daniels]

has vanished.-

No, that's what archives are for. Try the New York Public Library and
the Library of Congress. Presumably the SFPL also has an important
collection.

Which reminds me of my friend the sociolinguist Steve Murray's book
*American Gay*, which I copyedited for the U of Chicago Press -- he
was very keen to convince the reader that gay liberation did not begin
at the Stonewall Inn in NYC in 1969, but with a similar raid at a
similar institution in SF a few years earlier -- except that because
there was no media in SF, no one knew about it.

"Straight" is opposed to "bent," as in the title of the play that on
Braodway starred Richard Gere and David Duke.

[Duggy]

On Mar 12, 1:33 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Mar 11, 8:01 pm, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > A dictionary isn't the best place to find regional usages as names for
> > food.
> There was nothing in either informant's postings to suggest that the
> word is any more "regional" than UK in general (not even so marked in
> AHD5).

Possibly like myself he was unaware that the Australian usage was so
different from international.

You've seen the experience we have with names-of-food here, a
dictionary is not the place to go.

> > This is what the poster is talking above (scroll up for a picture):
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rissole

> Yup, empanadas. Nothing remotely resembling either haggis or a
> hamburger.

Hmmm, the #AustraliaandNewZealand was cut somehow,

> > But of course you knew or could easily have looked up all that, but
> > you prefer to pretend to scorn things you don't understand from places
> > separated by bodies of water from your little world.

> Not at all. A quaint local foodstuff

Patronising git.

> > So:
> > A haggis is offal wrapped in stomach.
> > A faggot is minced offal wrapped in caul.
> > A hamburger pattie is flat round mince pattie.
> patty of ground beef. Minced is a different process from ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_mince

How so?

> "mince" is a sweet mixture baked into pies around Christmas time; at
> one time it involved lard.

Are you offering a quaint local food as equivalent to an international
staple?

> > An Australian rissole is like a hamburger pattie, but thicker, smaller
> > and usually has other ingredients in it.

> The picture of an Australian rissle doesn't look at all like a picture
> of a hamburger.

That's nice.

I didn't say it looked like it. I said it was like one, "but

thicker, smaller and usually has other ingredients in it."

Are you saying that that was untrue?

===
= DUG.
===

[Nathan Sanders]

In article
<c73e0abf-62f9-4f8d...@z31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>

> "Straight" is opposed to "bent," as in the title of the play that on
> Braodway starred Richard Gere and David Duke.

David Duke*s*! David Duke is a very different person, unlikely to
have starred in anything on Broadway, especially _Bent_!

Nathan

--
Department of Linguistics
Swarthmore College
http://sanders.phonologist.org/

[pauljk]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:76db92c3-a9f0-4600...@eb6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

Presumably? More likely recently invented folksy drivel.
I'd say Wiki is more likely to get the history of the name right.

<wiki quote>
Though there are many fanciful stories connecting steak tartare with
the Tatar or Tartar people of Central Asia, there is no evidence that
the Tatars ate raw chopped meat, and if they did, no explanation of
why the name would first appear in the 20th century.

The name may come from tartar sauce, which often accompanied it,
or from the notion that the Tatars were primitive--cf. the alternate names
boeuf cannibal and boeuf à l'américaine.

It was first served in French restaurants early in the 20th century.
What is now generally known as "steak tartare" was then called
steak à l'Americaine. Steak tartare was a variation on that dish;
the 1921 edition of Escoffier's Le Guide Culinaire defines it as steak
à l'Americaine made without egg yolk, served with tartar sauce on the side.

Over time, the distinction between steak à l'Americaine and its variant
vanished. The 1938 edition of Larousse Gastronomique describes
steak tartare as raw ground beef served with a raw egg yolk,
without any mention of tartar sauce.
<unquote>

I love good steak of tartar, providing the meat is finely scraped,
not minced. Lebanese kibbeh nayyeh is my favoured variety.

pjk

[James Hogg]

Isn't a rissole wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma?

--
James

[Snidely]

After serious thinking James Hogg wrote :

Also, which pronunciation is used where?

/dps "Rizz and sin no more"

--
Who, me?

[Duggy]

In Australia & New Zealand it isn't wrapped in anything.

===
= DUG.
===

[Katy Jennison]

On 12/03/2012 03:33, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> "mince" is a sweet mixture baked into pies around Christmas time; at
> one time it involved lard.

Nope, that's mincemeat. Distinct from mince(d) meat.

--
Katy Jennison

[The Welsh Windbag]

> "retrosorter" wrote.

> >Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?

>The Welsh Windbag:
> In the US, the word 'bastard' is in the process of being reclaimed by some
> adopted people.
>
> www.bastards.org

>Duggy:
>The derogatory term has been reclaimed for some time:
>http://www.aoob.com.au/


I see that as perpetuating the derogatory use of the word rather them
helping to reclaim it.

[The Welsh Windbag]

On Mar 10, 5:47 pm, "The Welsh Windbag" <TheWelshWind...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> "The Welsh Windbag" wrote:

<quote from Bastard Nation website>
> We at Bastard Nation believe that there is NOTHING shameful about having
> been born out of wedlock or about being adopted. We selected our name
> because we will no longer be made to feel shamed by the odious state laws
> that permanently seal our original birth records. We do not fling the word
> "bastard" at anyone. Rather, we wear it proudly as we work to achieve our
> goal of equal and unconditional access to original birth records for all
> adult adoptees.


>"Peter T. Daniels" wrote
>Even 50 years ago, it was no "shame" to be adopted.
>
>I don't know that I ever knew anyone who was born out of wedlock, but
>even 50 years ago it seemed an odd thing to get upset about.
>
>It is still a shame to have an unwanted baby or to have a baby while
>in high school.

Should we not be guided by what adoptees tell us? This group is telling us
that the way their birth records are hidden away makes them feel shamed.

[Robert Bannister]

On 11/03/12 9:13 AM, Duggy wrote:

> On Mar 11, 9:47 am, Robert Bannister<robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> On 11/03/12 2:34 AM, John Varela wrote:
>>> WIWAL in the 1940s and 50s the common derogatory slang terms were
>>> "queer", "fairy", and "fruit", applied only to men. I don't recall a
>>> term for lesbians. It may have been thought that they didn't exist.
>
>> I doubt that, but it wasn't illegal in most places.
>
> I'd say there was a portion of the population that didn't even know to
> think it didn't exist.
>
> But obviously there would have been people who knew about it. Even
> outside the lesbian community itself.

I suspect it was the contemporary attitude of men towards women: wives
had nothing to do with sex; they were simply there to provide (male)
heirs and what they did in their spare time was unimportant so long as
it did not involve another man who might sully the bloodline.


--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 11/03/12 11:43 AM, R H Draney wrote:
> Duggy filted:
>>
>> On Mar 11, 8:28=A0am, "Peter T. Daniels"<gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>>> On Mar 10, 1:57=A0pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
>>>> not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
>>>
>>> Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.
>>>
>>> Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
>>> meaning?
>>

>> I'm 39, and I know it as "bundle of stick" because at some point in
>> High School we were told it was the German name for the bassoon and I
>> have a stupid memory that stores that information. I think I've seen
>> it used, rarely, in older books or fantasy trying to sound older but
>> not much.
>
> I, under 60 but not under 50, know both meanings (as well as the "meatball"
> one), mainly because the stops on the organ I learned to play were marked with
> their Italian names....r
>
>
Your organ had a stop for meatballs?

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 11/03/12 12:10 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Mar 10, 6:52 pm, Robert Bannister<robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> On 11/03/12 6:28 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mar 10, 12:47 pm, Peter Moylan<inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>

>>>>> retrosorter wrote:
>>>>>> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
>>>>>> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
>>>>>> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
>>>>>> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>>
>>>>>> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
>>>>>> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
>>>>>> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.
>>

>>>>>> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>>

>>>>> For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever had a
>>>>> respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
>>>>> continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've heard the
>>>>> word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way that
>>>>> words like "poofter" have stuck.
>>

>>>> In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
>>>> not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
>>
>>> Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.
>>
>>> Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
>>> meaning?
>>

>> Perhaps because we read the unbowderlised, unmodernised versions of the
>> fairy tales in which old people frequently walked around carrying or
>> looking for bundles of faggots. There is also the less widespread
>> northern English "faggot" that is like a rissole. Now, there's a word
>> that begs to be given a dirty meaning, but as far as I know, it has
>> escaped that fate.
>

> I don't believe those conditions apply to 50-60-year-olds in North
> America?

You see: you only think you speak English.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 11/03/12 1:49 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:

> On Mar 11, 1:52 am, Robert Bannister<robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> On 11/03/12 6:28 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mar 10, 12:47 pm, Peter Moylan<inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> retrosorter wrote:
>>>>>> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
>>>>>> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be rehabilitated by
>>>>>> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
>>>>>> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>>
>>>>>> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only one I
>>>>>> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
>>>>>> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.
>>
>>>>>> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>>
>>>>> For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever had a
>>>>> respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
>>>>> continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've heard the
>>>>> word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way that
>>>>> words like "poofter" have stuck.
>>

>>>>> --
>>>>> Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
>>>>> For an e-mail address, see my web page.
>>

>>>> In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
>>>> not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
>>
>>> Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.
>>
>>> Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
>>> meaning?
>>
>> Perhaps because we read the unbowderlised, unmodernised versions of the
>> fairy tales in which old people frequently walked around carrying or
>> looking for bundles of faggots. There is also the less widespread
>> northern English "faggot" that is like a rissole. Now, there's a word
>> that begs to be given a dirty meaning, but as far as I know, it has
>> escaped that fate.
>>

> I'd have said that faggots are more like haggis than rissoles.
> Rissoles are, these days, commonly sold as rissole sandwiches, but
> called 'hamburgers' - why Hamburg should be credited with inventing
> the rissole sandwich isn't clear to me.

I see a much bigger difference between a rissole and a hamburger than
between a faggot and a rissole. Proper rissoles include onion,
(sometimes garlic), herbs, bread and egg. Proper hamburgers consist only
of meat.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

But that page above gave descriptions where the rissole was cooked in
breadcrumbs or who knows what. I don't think Wiki knows what a rissole
is. Your descriptions are much closer to the truth, although I didn't
know faggots were offal.


--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 12/03/12 11:33 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>
> patty of ground beef. Minced is a different process from ground.

I am seriously beginning to question whether you speak English. Do you
use a grindstone?


--
Robert Bannister

[Duggy]

On Mar 12, 7:03 pm, "The Welsh Windbag" <TheWelshWind...@gmail.com>
wrote:

OK, they're reclaiming the derogatory nature.

When I was young "bastard" was used as a playful insult, as noted on
the page.

Maybe it's an Australian thing.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

But (Australian) rissoles don't use offal and certainly aren't wrapped
in caul like faggots.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

On Mar 12, 7:17 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> I suspect it was the contemporary attitude of men towards women: wives
> had nothing to do with sex; they were simply there to provide (male)
> heirs and what they did in their spare time was unimportant so long as
> it did not involve another man who might sully the bloodline.

And women didn't want/like sex, so why would 2 women have sex?

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

I've know it to happen... but it's rare.

> I don't think Wiki knows what a rissole is.

Sounds right.

> Your descriptions are much closer to the truth, although I didn't
> know faggots were offal.

I'm only going by a quick "faggot recipe" search.

===
= DUG.
===

[Peter Brooks]

The comparison that I made was, firstly, between a faggot and a haggis
- both of which are made with offal.

Of course commercial hamburgers are made from offal too - actually, a
particular sub-species of offal, known as mechanically recovered meat.
So I stand corrected, a hamburger is probably closer to a faggot than
a rissole.

I'm not really sure what you mean by a 'proper' hamburger either. I
remember making some hamburgers, many years ago, I think it was a
Robert Carrier receipt, and they were very good. It involved hand-
minced fillet, onions and eggs.

I have tried commercially available 'hamburgers' a couple of times - I
am reasonably brave, and I had to know what they actually were like,
not that I'd like mechanically recovered meat to be a standard part of
my diet and I avoid trans-fats as well. I must say that they were very
nasty things, no relation at all to the Robert Carrier version.

[António Marques]

Peter Brooks wrote (12-03-2012 10:43):
> I remember making some hamburgers, many years ago, I think it was a
> Robert Carrier receipt, and they were very good.

I should know better than getting myself into this, but does anyone really
say (or is able to understand) receipt for recipe?

(Obviously *I* understand it because my word for the thing is 'receita'.)

[James Hogg]

The synonyms "receipt" and "recipe" have existed side by side for
centuries, but "recipe" has pretty much triumphed in this sense, except
in uses that the OED describes as "Now hist. or arch." There's a
quotation from Gore Vidal from 1992, "a receipt for chaos".

--
James

[MC]

In article <9s5tph...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> Your descriptions are much closer to the truth, although I didn't
> know faggots were offal.

They certainly *taste* offal.

--

"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones

[MC]

In article <9s5thg...@mid.individual.net>,

Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> Proper hamburgers consist only
> of meat.

...and "pink slime" apparently.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 12, 2:54 am, Nathan Sanders <sand...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> In article
> <c73e0abf-62f9-4f8d-babc-8b1eeeaa8...@z31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,

>  "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Straight" is opposed to "bent," as in the title of the play that on
> > Braodway starred Richard Gere and David Duke.
>
> David Duke*s*!  David Duke is a very different person, unlikely to
> have starred in anything on Broadway, especially _Bent_!

I can never remember which was which. The actor's prominence preceded
the politician's.

[Peter T. Daniels]

No, I think the preceding poster specifically and unjustifiably
posited, "In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50
or 60."

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "pauljk" <paul.kr...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:76db92c3-a9f0-4600...@eb6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

How else would you introduce a folk etymology? "One presumes that the
name caught on because ...."

> More likely recently invented folksy drivel.
> I'd say Wiki is more likely to get the history of the name right.
>
> <wiki quote>
> Though there are many fanciful stories connecting steak tartare with
> the Tatar or Tartar people of Central Asia, there is no evidence that
> the Tatars ate raw chopped meat, and if they did, no explanation of
> why the name would first appear in the 20th century.
>
> The name may come from tartar sauce, which often accompanied it,
> or from the notion that the Tatars were primitive--cf. the alternate names
> boeuf cannibal and boeuf à l'américaine.
>
> It was first served in French restaurants early in the 20th century.
> What is now generally known as "steak tartare" was then called
> steak à l'Americaine. Steak tartare was a variation on that dish;
> the 1921 edition of Escoffier's Le Guide Culinaire defines it as steak
> à l'Americaine made without egg yolk, served with tartar sauce on the side.
>
> Over time, the distinction between steak à l'Americaine and its variant
> vanished. The 1938 edition of Larousse Gastronomique describes
> steak tartare as raw ground beef served with a raw egg yolk,
> without any mention of tartar sauce.
> <unquote>
>
> I love good steak of tartar, providing the meat is finely scraped,
> not minced. Lebanese kibbeh nayyeh is my favoured variety.

"Steak of tartar"?? All that brings to mind is "cream of tartar," a
chemical used in cooling.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 12, 1:20 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> On Mar 12, 1:33 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> > On Mar 11, 8:01 pm, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > > A dictionary isn't the best place to find regional usages as names for
> > > food.

> > There was nothing in either informant's postings to suggest that the
> > word is any more "regional" than UK in general (not even so marked in
> > AHD5).
>
> Possibly like myself he was unaware that the Australian usage was so
> different from international.
>
> You've seen the experience we have with names-of-food here, a
> dictionary is not the place to go.

>
> > > This is what the poster is talking above (scroll up for a picture):
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rissole

> > Yup, empanadas. Nothing remotely resembling either haggis or a
> > hamburger.
>
> Hmmm, the #AustraliaandNewZealand was cut somehow,

>
> > > But of course you knew or could easily have looked up all that, but
> > > you prefer to pretend to scorn things you don't understand from places
> > > separated by bodies of water from your little world.

> > Not at all. A quaint local foodstuff
>
> Patronising git.

>
> > > So:
> > > A haggis is offal wrapped in stomach.
> > > A faggot is minced offal wrapped in caul.
> > > A hamburger pattie is flat round mince pattie.

> > patty of ground beef. Minced is a different process from ground.
>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_mince
>
> How so?

You grind meat with a grinder (hand-cranked, preferably), you mince
things with a blade. The texture of the outcome is different.

> > "mince" is a sweet mixture baked into pies around Christmas time; at
> > one time it involved lard.
>

> Are you offering a quaint local food as equivalent to an international
> staple?

>
> > > An Australian rissole is like a hamburger pattie, but thicker, smaller
> > > and usually has other ingredients in it.

> > The picture of an Australian rissle doesn't look at all like a picture
> > of a hamburger.
>
> That's nice.
>
> I didn't say it looked like it.  I said it was like one, "but

> thicker, smaller and usually has other ingredients in it."

In what way is it "like one"? A cat is "like" a dog, except nicer and
it purrs?

> Are you saying that that was untrue?

Being encased in pastry like a pasty rules it out, for one thing.

[John Holmes]

MC wrote:
> In article <9s5thg...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> Proper hamburgers consist only
>> of meat.
>
> ...and "pink slime" apparently.

That's what you get for grinding the meat instead of mincing it.


--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Peter T. Daniels]

Include bread crumbs (or sometimes rice) and egg and you're making
meat loaf. Certainly hamburger can be seasoned, but more likely the
onions (either raw or grilled) are an optional condiment.

[Peter T. Daniels]

And that was passed off as a "hamburger"???

Kind of like the dinners served by my hostess in Dublin in 1992 --
they were very nice, but as attempts to make American food, they
weren't even in the ballpark.

> I have tried commercially available 'hamburgers' a couple of times - I
> am reasonably brave, and I had to know what they actually were like,
> not that I'd like mechanically recovered meat to be a standard part of
> my diet and I avoid trans-fats as well. I must say that they were very

> nasty things, no relation at all to the Robert Carrier version.-

Where did you get "commercially available 'hamburgers'"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Not long ago I learned the Spanish word for receipt: recibo.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Mar 12, 5:07 am, "The Welsh Windbag" <TheWelshWind...@gmail.com>

I've never encountered it described as "shamed." Curious, cut off from
the past, betrayed -- but how "shamed"?

"Open adoption" is increasingly common -- and apparently it's still
the parents, not the children, who demand that their privacy be
protected.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Cf. Auntie Mame's famous declaration: "Life is a banquet, and most
poor bastards are passing it by!"

It's in the novel, I assume it was expurgated in the stage play, it's
expurgated in the Rosalind Russell movie, but I think it's used in the
execrable movie of the musical starring Lucille Ball (who couldn't
sing, couldn't dance any more, and by that age could barely do
physical comedy).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Mr. Brooks and Mr. Vidal certainly count as "arch."

But are they synonyms, or are they merely variant spellings?

[pauljk]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:07082ed3-410e-49ee...@d17g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

> On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "pauljk" <paul.kr...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in
>> messagenews:76db92c3-a9f0-4600...@eb6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>>

[...]

Okay, "of" is a typo.

pjk

[António Marques]

What, 'Brooks' and 'Vidal'?

[António Marques]

Yeah, it's the same as in portuguese. We use 'receita' also for a medicine
prescription.

[Peter Brooks]

Or a reference to something historical - I used the word to refer to
the sort of dish that Robert Carrier, Mrs Beeton or any sound chef
might produce - contrasting that to what might come from a meat
factory.

[Peter Moylan]

Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 11/03/12 11:43 AM, R H Draney wrote:
>> Duggy filted:
>>>
>>> On Mar 11, 8:28=A0am, "Peter T. Daniels"<gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>>>> On Mar 10, 1:57=A0pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
>>>>> not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
>>>>
>>>> Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.
>>>>
>>>> Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
>>>> meaning?
>>>

>>> I'm 39, and I know it as "bundle of stick" because at some point in
>>> High School we were told it was the German name for the bassoon and I
>>> have a stupid memory that stores that information. I think I've seen
>>> it used, rarely, in older books or fantasy trying to sound older but
>>> not much.
>>
>> I, under 60 but not under 50, know both meanings (as well as the
>> "meatball"
>> one), mainly because the stops on the organ I learned to play were
>> marked with
>> their Italian names....r
>>
> Your organ had a stop for meatballs?
>
You can't make it keep going if it's hungry.

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 12, 1:42 pm, "John Holmes" <s...@sig.instead> wrote:
> MC wrote:
> > In article <9s5thgFs9...@mid.individual.net>,

> > Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> >> Proper hamburgers consist only
> >> of meat.
>
> > ...and "pink slime" apparently.
>
> That's what you get for grinding the meat instead of mincing it.
>

Quite, it's a peculiar, unnatural, and unpleasant thing to do to meat,
though it's perfectly reasonable to do it to peppercorns.

[Peter Brooks]

I'd go for variant spellings.

[Duggy]

On Mar 12, 9:42 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Mar 12, 1:20 am, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

> > > > A hamburger pattie is flat round mince pattie.
> > > patty of ground beef. Minced is a different process from ground.
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_mince
> > How so?

> You grind meat with a grinder (hand-cranked, preferably), you mince
> things with a blade.

Grinders have blades and mincers can have hand cranks.

> The texture of the outcome is different.

Not significantly.

> > I didn't say it looked like it.  I said it was like one, "but
> > thicker, smaller and usually has other ingredients in it."
> In what way is it "like one"? A cat is "like" a dog, except nicer and
> it purrs?

It's made with minced or ground beef made into a pattie and fried or
barbequed.

The size and shape differ and the rissole is more likely to have extra
ingredients.

> > Are you saying that that was untrue?
> Being encased in pastry like a pasty rules it out, for one thing.

Australian Rissoles aren't encased in pastry. The link you claimed to
have looked at makes that clear.

Stop pretending to be a moron.

===
= DUG.
===

[Peter Moylan]

Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 11/03/12 1:49 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:
>> On Mar 11, 1:52 am, Robert Bannister<robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/03/12 6:28 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 10, 1:57 pm, retrosorter<hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 10, 12:47 pm, Peter Moylan<inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> retrosorter wrote:
>>>>>>> I had this semantic disagreement with two friends recently. They
>>>>>>> believed that the words "slut" and "faggot" could be
>>>>>>> rehabilitated by
>>>>>>> being used in value-neutral senses. I believe that both words, at
>>>>>>> least for the time being, are beyond redemption.
>>>
>>>>>>> This made me think which words have been rehabilitated. The only
>>>>>>> one I
>>>>>>> can think of is "gay" which used to be used often in an insulting
>>>>>>> manner but nowadays is merely a descriptive term fora homosexual.
>>>

>>>>>>> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been
>>>>>>> rehabiliated?
>>>

>>>>>> For now I can't see any way to rehabilitate "slut" -- has it ever
>>>>>> had a
>>>>>> respectable meaning? -- but for me the primary meaning of "faggot"
>>>>>> continues to be the "bundle of sticks" meaning. Certainly I've
>>>>>> heard the
>>>>>> word applied to a homosexual male, but it hasn't stuck in the way
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> words like "poofter" have stuck.
>>>

>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
>>>>>> For an e-mail address, see my web page.
>>>

>>>>> In North America, I venture to guess, most people under 50 or 60 are
>>>>> not even aware of the bundle of stick sense of "faggot."
>>>
>>>> Musicians are, because they have to know the German word for bassoon.
>>>
>>>> Why would persons of middle age or above know the bundle of sticks
>>>> meaning?
>>>

>>> Perhaps because we read the unbowderlised, unmodernised versions of the
>>> fairy tales in which old people frequently walked around carrying or
>>> looking for bundles of faggots. There is also the less widespread
>>> northern English "faggot" that is like a rissole. Now, there's a word
>>> that begs to be given a dirty meaning, but as far as I know, it has
>>> escaped that fate.
>>>
>> I'd have said that faggots are more like haggis than rissoles.
>> Rissoles are, these days, commonly sold as rissole sandwiches, but
>> called 'hamburgers' - why Hamburg should be credited with inventing
>> the rissole sandwich isn't clear to me.
>
> I see a much bigger difference between a rissole and a hamburger than
> between a faggot and a rissole. Proper rissoles include onion,

> (sometimes garlic), herbs, bread and egg. Proper hamburgers consist only
> of meat.
>
I didn't know that. I can imagine omitting the onion, but it would seem
strange to me to make a hamburger without any egg.

Personally, I like including chopped capsicum and celery in my rissoles,
but I concede that not everyone does that.

The picture of that "Australian rissole" in the Wikipaedia article that
someone quoted upthread looked especially unappealing. I once had
something like that in a cheap cafe, but wasn't able to finish it.

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-03-09, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> On Mar 9, 4:00 pm, retrosorter <hrich...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Anybody have any opinions on other words that have been rehabiliated?
>

> The best example I know of is "black". "Queer" has had a partial
> rehabilitation.


Was "black" ever really a derogatory term? AIUI, "black" was widely
used by black people even before "Black Power", the "Black Panthers",
or "black is beautiful".


--
By dint of plentiful try...catch constructs throughout our code base,
we are sometimes able to prevent our applications from aborting. We
think of the resultant state as "nailing the corpse in the upright
position". [Verity Stob]