Arabic verb 'tarjama'
Raymond Roy
Two questions about the Arabic verb 'tarjama' (to translate) :
- Being a four-stem verb, I suspect a foreign origin. Am I right? Could
it be akin to a Turkish word? In German we have the word 'Dolmetscher'
for 'interpreter', which comes from Turkish I think. Is there any
relationship between these words?
- What would be the 1st person of 'tarjama' in the present tense? Could
it be '(anā) 'atarjimu'? Which syllable would then be stressed? And the
past participle?
Thanks !
Raymond
Peter T. Daniels
Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
(targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
borrowing of Semitic ragāmu, which has to do with making noise.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
mike
@worldnet.att.net:
"dragoman" is obviously a mis-morph of "turkoman", but how did he think
that we'd get a word directly from sumarian? through one of madame
blawatsky's sceances?
Yusuf B Gursey
: Hello !
: Two questions about the Arabic verb 'tarjama' (to translate) :
: - Being a four-stem verb, I suspect a foreign origin. Am I right? Could
not all 4-stem verbs are of foreign origin, some are secondary formations
of native words. the immediate source for arabic is aramaic.
tarjuma:n is an oldish arabic word for "interpreter" (form aramaic and
perhaps suemrian, see daniel's post) but not much used nowadays. it's
still in use in modern turkish (alongside a neologism and more rarely the
regular arabic actuve participle). modern arabic tends to use the regular
active participle mutarjim.
OED says dragoman comes from old romance, which got it from late greek
which got it from arabic (from a dialect or period - the old period -
that used [g] for jim).
: it be akin to a Turkish word? In German we have the word 'Dolmetscher'
it is not from turkish. the german word might be from middle turkic, which
may have gotten it from aramaic as well. I'll look it up.
: for 'interpreter', which comes from Turkish I think. Is there any
: relationship between these words?
: - What would be the 1st person of 'tarjama' in the present tense? Could
: it be '(anā) 'atarjimu'? Which syllable would then be stressed? And the
the imperfect indicative is 'utarjimu (the pronouns, after or before the
vebr are not neccessary except emphasis, particlualry in standard arabic).
stress was not studied by the classical grammarians, but it tends to fall
on the penultimate syllable.
: past participle?
I don't know what you mean by it, the active participle is mutarjim, the
perfect stem is best illustrated by the 3 person perfect, tarjama .
the passive particple would be mutarjam
the verbal noun is tarjama(t) (there is also an old form from aramaic
tarjuma(t) ).
(I ommitted the case endings of the nouns, of course)
: Thanks !
: Raymond
:
Yusuf B Gursey
: Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
?
"mike" has made a valid point here.
: (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
: clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
: borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
Yusuf B Gursey
:>
:> Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
:> (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
:> clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
:> borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
: "dragoman" is obviously a mis-morph of "turkoman", but how did he think
which it is not. and "turkomans" (the medieval sense was "muslim but
tribal, nomadic oghuz turk") were not employed as translators, except on
rare occassions for people like ibn fadlan, certainly not for western
langauges
: that we'd get a word directly from sumarian? through one of madame
: blawatsky's sceances?
good point here.
mike
news:Gz44q...@world.std.com:
> mike <orang...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>:>
>:> Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
>:> (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
>:> clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
>:> borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
>
>: "dragoman" is obviously a mis-morph of "turkoman", but how did he
think
>
> which it is not. and "turkomans" (the medieval sense was "muslim but
> tribal, nomadic oghuz turk") were not employed as translators, except
on
> rare occassions for people like ibn fadlan, certainly not for western
> langauges
you remember though, that it is the appearance that is being named, and
not the activity. as in, "Bulah, fetch me my dragoman, i've got this
letter here from Istambol". i think that, to the backward European,
anyone that wasn't Chinese must be a Turk or a Moor.
the great medieval translators, were, i believe, jewish translators of
the arabic translations of greek classics. for "dragoman" to work, you'd
maybe have to have some event during the crusades allowing Cour D'Leon to
speak with a targuman, and designate the concept translation, which he'd
have had to have heard for the first time, as the *la taragumanistique.
but, what's the etymology of the "targuman" anyway? as someone noted, it
doesn't sound very arabic. is this "talk-u-man"? =) arabic from english?
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote in
: news:Gz44q...@world.std.com:
:> mike <orang...@aol.com> wrote:
:>
:>:>
:>:> Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
:>:> (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
:>:> clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
:>:> borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
:>
:>: "dragoman" is obviously a mis-morph of "turkoman", but how did he
: think
:>
:> which it is not. and "turkomans" (the medieval sense was "muslim but
:> tribal, nomadic oghuz turk") were not employed as translators, except
: on
:> rare occassions for people like ibn fadlan, certainly not for western
:> langauges
: you remember though, that it is the appearance that is being named, and
: not the activity. as in, "Bulah, fetch me my dragoman, i've got this
: letter here from Istambol". i think that, to the backward European,
: anyone that wasn't Chinese must be a Turk or a Moor.
you mean europeans mistook the greeks, armenians or jews who handled the
translation activites for turks or "moors" just on account of their
not being "chinese"??!!
: the great medieval translators, were, i believe, jewish translators of
: the arabic translations of greek classics. for "dragoman" to work, you'd
: maybe have to have some event during the crusades allowing Cour D'Leon to
: speak with a targuman, and designate the concept translation, which he'd
: have had to have heard for the first time, as the *la taragumanistique.
: but, what's the etymology of the "targuman" anyway? as someone noted, it
: doesn't sound very arabic. is this "talk-u-man"? =) arabic from english?
as I said, the immediate source for arabic is aramaic and the word though
found in sumerian may be ultimately semitic.
:>
:>: that we'd get a word directly from sumarian? through one of madame
:>
:>
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[...]
>Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
>(targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
>clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
>borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
Did he really claim that it was *directly* from Sumerian? And if so,
how? The chain in AHD3 seems far more likely: from OFr <drugeman>,
from MedLat <dragumannus>, from MedGk <dragoumanos>, from Ar
<tarjuma:n>, from Aram <tu:rgema:na:>, from Akk <targuma:nu>. (MW
fills in some of the later steps, giving ME <drogman>, from MFr, from
OItal <dragomanno>, from MGk <dragomanos>, from Ar <tarjuma:n>, from
Aram <turgema:na:>.) What's the Sumerian?
Brian
mike
> mike <orang...@aol.com> wrote:
>: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote in
>: news:Gz44q...@world.std.com:
>
>:> mike <orang...@aol.com> wrote:
>:>
>:>:>
>:>:> Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
>:>:> (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word,
>:>:> is clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well
>:>:> be a borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making
>:>:> noise.
>:>
>:>: "dragoman" is obviously a mis-morph of "turkoman", but how did he
>:>: think
>:>
>:> which it is not. and "turkomans" (the medieval sense was "muslim but
>:> tribal, nomadic oghuz turk") were not employed as translators, except
>:> on rare occassions for people like ibn fadlan, certainly not for
>:> western langauges
>
>: you remember though, that it is the appearance that is being named,
>: and not the activity. as in, "Bulah, fetch me my dragoman, i've got
>: this letter here from Istambol". i think that, to the backward
>: European, anyone that wasn't Chinese must be a Turk or a Moor.
>
> you mean europeans mistook the greeks, armenians or jews who handled
> the translation activites for turks or "moors" just on account of their
> not being "chinese"??!!
i don't think that this is what i said at all. the concept is that the
european had only a few catagories of non-european.
>
>: the great medieval translators, were, i believe, jewish translators of
>: the arabic translations of greek classics. for "dragoman" to work,
>: you'd maybe have to have some event during the crusades allowing Cour
>: D'Leon to speak with a targuman, and designate the concept
>: translation, which he'd have had to have heard for the first time, as
>: the *la taragumanistique. but, what's the etymology of the "targuman"
>: anyway? as someone noted, it doesn't sound very arabic. is this
>: "talk-u-man"? =) arabic from english?
>
> as I said, the immediate source for arabic is aramaic and the word
> though found in sumerian may be ultimately semitic.
well, say it again, and that may make it true.
Yusuf B Gursey
: : it be akin to a Turkish word? In German we have the word 'Dolmetscher'
: it is not from turkish. the german word might be from middle turkic, which
: may have gotten it from aramaic as well. I'll look it up.
tilme*ch*, tIlma*ch*, dilme*ch*, dIlma*ch*, dilma*ch* etc. are turkic
forms of a word for "translator". although the suffix is a little unusual
it is quite obviuos that teh first element is "tongue" (or "language").
apparently from NW turkic it was borrowed into hungarian as tolma'cs and
also into slavic, so german seems also reasonable.
dilma*ch* was present in ottoman turkish, but is not currently in use.
no mention of any aramaic influence is made. so you have an aramaic word
and a seperate turkic word.
if I have more information, I will communicat eit.
: : for 'interpreter', which comes from Turkish I think. Is there any
: : relationship between these words?
Nigel Greenwood
<...>
> perhaps suemrian, see daniel's post) but not much used nowadays. it's
> still in use in modern turkish
... & indeed there's a newspaper called Tercüman, with the helpful
subtitle "[interpreter] of events to the people".
> OED says dragoman comes from old romance, which got it from late greek
> which got it from arabic (from a dialect or period - the old period -
> that used [g] for jim).
The word Targum was formerly used in English in the sense of "Aramaic
paraphrase of the Old Testament". The word occurs in the works of
Thomas Browne [17th C], for example.
>
> : it be akin to a Turkish word? In German we have the word 'Dolmetscher'
>
> it is not from turkish. the german word might be from middle turkic,
It's Dilmaç [dil = tongue/language].
No relation between Tarjuma:n & Turkoman! Apart from the fact that
both are considered as quadriliteral roots in Arabic, which has the
plural form Tara:kimah for Turkomans/Turko"men".
Nigel
Language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern Greek/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
So read his brief article!
Peter T. Daniels
Well if I remembered that I would have given it, no? Something like
TAR.GAM.
Peter T. Daniels
> The word Targum was formerly used in English in the sense of "Aramaic
> paraphrase of the Old Testament". The word occurs in the works of
> Thomas Browne [17th C], for example.
Formerly?????
Nigel Greenwood
> Nigel Greenwood wrote:
>
> > The word Targum was formerly used in English in the sense of "Aramaic
> > paraphrase of the Old Testament". The word occurs in the works of
> > Thomas Browne [17th C], for example.
>
> Formerly?????
Oops -- still used, it seems.
The deceptively French-looking word Truchement is in fact good old
Tarjuma:n in a different guise.
Nigel
Yusuf B Gursey
Nigel Greenwood
<...>
> dilma*ch* was present in ottoman turkish, but is not currently in use.
A quick googling confirms this, with one exception. The University of
Mersin calls its specialist German translation & interpreting section
"Almanca Mütercimlik-Tercümanlik Anabilim Dali" (-lik is a suffix for
abstract nouns), and then goes on to describe its graduates as
"çevirmen ve dilmaç" (the "pure" Turkish equivalents of
Mütercim/Tercüman: Wordturners & Tonguesmiths, as it were). This is
obviously a specialised website, & is trying to establish a
distinction between translators & interpreters -- a distinction often
blurred in popular & journalistic usage in English ("We took our
translator with us into the war zone ...").
On the other hand Dilmaç seems to be a fairly common surname in
Turkey. Some of those old Ottoman dragomans may have adopted it when
they were obliged to choose a surname in the 1920s.
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com> wrote
: <...>
:> dilma*ch* was present in ottoman turkish, but is not currently in use.
: A quick googling confirms this, with one exception. The University of
: Mersin calls its specialist German translation & interpreting section
: "Almanca Mütercimlik-Tercümanlik Anabilim Dali" (-lik is a suffix for
: abstract nouns), and then goes on to describe its graduates as
: "çevirmen ve dilmaç" (the "pure" Turkish equivalents of
: Mütercim/Tercüman: Wordturners & Tonguesmiths, as it were). This is
: obviously a specialised website, & is trying to establish a
: distinction between translators & interpreters -- a distinction often
: blurred in popular & journalistic usage in English ("We took our
: translator with us into the war zone ...").
the distinction is not well known in turkish or arabic. arabic
interpreters here (USA) use mutarjim and turkish interpreters either
tercu"man or c,evirmen. if I translated the phrase "do you understand the
interpreter?" using <<dilmac,>> I'd get as a response "NO!" and lose the
job (I do interpreting myself). but this distinction may eventually catch
on.
: On the other hand Dilmaç seems to be a fairly common surname in
: Turkey. Some of those old Ottoman dragomans may have adopted it when
: they were obliged to choose a surname in the 1920s.
or they simply liked the word.
: Nigel
Yusuf B Gursey
: : : it be akin to a Turkish word? In German we have the word 'Dolmetscher'
: : it is not from turkish. the german word might be from middle turkic, which
: : may have gotten it from aramaic as well. I'll look it up.
: tilme*ch*, tIlma*ch*, dilme*ch*, dIlma*ch*, dilma*ch* etc. are turkic
: forms of a word for "translator". although the suffix is a little unusual
: it is quite obviuos that teh first element is "tongue" (or "language").
: apparently from NW turkic it was borrowed into hungarian as tolma'cs and
: also into slavic, so german seems also reasonable.
yes. doerfer, TMEN has it. he says it is via slavic (with a question
mark). the middle high german form was with t- (as it is in NW turkic).
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> : Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> :>
> :> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> :>
> :> : Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
> :>
> :> ?
> :>
> :> "mike" has made a valid point here.
> :>
> :> : (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
> :> : clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
> :> : borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
>
> : So read his brief article!
>
> reference?
Visualizing it (from many years ago), I think it was in JNES. But I
don't think you could tell from the title what it was about.
Yusuf B Gursey
wrote:
> :>
> :> : Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
> :>
> :> ?
> :>
> :> "mike" has made a valid point here.
> :>
> :> : (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
> :> : clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
>
> : So read his brief article!
>
> reference?
found it after all these years:
"The Word for Dragoman in the Ancient Near East," Glossa 2 (1968): 93-104.
>
> : --
> : Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
here is another response:
From: b.sc...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.languages.arabic
Subject: Re: Arabic verb 'tarjama'
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 03:00:46 GMT
Message-ID: <3d2e43ee....@enews.newsguy.com>
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:37:48 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
<gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[...]
>Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
>(targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
>clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
>borrowing of Semitic ragāmu, which has to do with making noise.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Jul 12 2002, 12:25 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > : Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > :>
> > :> Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > :>
> > :> : Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
> > :>
> > :> ?
> > :>
> > :> "mike" has made a valid point here.
> > :>
> > :> : (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
> > :> : clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
>
> > : So read his brief article!
>
> > reference?
>
> found it after all these years:
>
> "The Word for Dragoman in the Ancient Near East," Glossa 2 (1968): 93-104.
actually Gelb does not mention Sumerian at all in his etymology. he
mentions the Semitic etymology then finds difficulty in it because
alledgedly he finds the suffix -a:nu / -annu difficult to explain in
Semitic (also noting the vascillation between the two), and proposes
*torgu / *torgo / *trogu / *trogo and the suffix -man. he then
references Paul de Lagarde (Armenische Sudien, 1877 p.58 and
Mittheilungen II, 1877 p. 177) who proposes an Indoeuropean etymology
citing Balto-Slavic *tŭlkŭ : Old church Slavonic tlŭkŭ
"intepretation", tlŭkkovati "to interpret" Bulgarian tlŭkovam "to
interpet", Russian tolkovat' "to interpret" Lithuanian tulkas
"interpreter", tulku°ti "to interpret"
he then goes on to Hittite tark/gummai- , tark/gummiya "to announce",
"to interpete" also "to translate". and says "It is equally possible
that the word is native, or borrowed from Akkadian, from another non-
Akkadian and non-Semitic language".
Sumerian has the unrelated eme-bala (eme "tongue, language", bala
"change")
the Arabic variants borrowed from Aramaic are tarjamān, tarjumān and
turjumān "interpreter".
here is what someone wrote:
http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/library/ane/digest/1996/v1996.n013
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 04:39:08 -0500
From: Gonzalo Rubio <gonz...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
Subject: Re: ane trgm
On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, Peter Daniels wrote:
> Gelb showed that the "targum" words (incl. English dragoman) are Sumerian
> loans rather than a t-formation of rgm. (It may have been in his AOS
> presidential address.)
Peter, you are thinking of Gelb's article in _Glossa_ 2 (1968): 93-104
("The Word for Dragoman in the ANE"). Kaufman points to a possible
Hittite
origin, at least for Aramaic (_The Akkadian Influences on Aramaic_.
Chicago, 1974, p. 107). However, I like the *rgm etymology --and it
sounds quite likely to me (even if the taprusa:n- pattern did not
sound
very Akkadian to Gelb --but taprus- is quite a common pattern
[tamhuSu,
ta:luku, etc.], and the /-a:n/ suffix occurs in rugumma:nu^ etc. [GAG
no.
56 r]).
- ---------------------------
Gonzalo Rubio
Near Eastern Studies
Johns Hopkins University
gonz...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
- ---------------------------
this last post makes sense to me. I would favor a Semitic etymology.
>
>
>
> > : --
> > : Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
>
> here is another response:
>
> From: b.sc...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
> Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.languages.arabic
> Subject: Re: Arabic verb 'tarjama'
> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 03:00:46 GMT
> Message-ID: <3d2e43ee....@enews.newsguy.com>
>
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:37:48 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
> >(targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
> >clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
> >borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
>
> Did he really claim that it was *directly* from Sumerian? And if so,
> how? The chain in AHD3 seems far more likely: from OFr <drugeman>,
> from MedLat <dragumannus>, from MedGk <dragoumanos>, from Ar
> <tarjuma:n>, from Aram <tu:rgema:na:>, from Akk <targuma:nu>. (MW
> fills in some of the later steps, giving ME <drogman>, from MFr, from
> OItal <dragomanno>, from MGk <dragomanos>, from Ar <tarjuma:n>, from
> Aram <turgema:na:>.) What's the Sumerian?
also Akkadian targumannum
as I said before teh Sumerianis given as unrelated eme-bala
<<
Semitic etymology :
Number: 3182
Proto-Semitic: *rgm
Meaning: say, speak
Akkadian: ragāmu
Ugaritic: rgm
Aramaic: trgm
Arabic: rǯm, trǯm
Notes: DLU 385
>>
Arabic has rajama "make conjectures about" (or is this somehow
relatedto rajama "hurl stones"?)
On Jul 27, 11:09 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
> On Jul 12 2002, 12:25 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > : Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > :>
> > :> Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > :>
> > :> : Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
> > :>
> > :> ?
> > :>
> > :> "mike" has made a valid point here.
> > :>
> > :> : (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
> > :> : clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
> > :> : borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
>
> > : So read his brief article!
>
> > reference?
>
> found it after all these years:
>
> "The Word for Dragoman in the Ancient Near East," Glossa 2 (1968): 93-104.
actually Gelb does not mention Sumerian at all in his etymology. he
mentions the Semitic etymology then finds difficulty in it because
alledgedly he finds the suffix -a:nu / -annu difficult to explain in
Semitic (also noting the vascillation between the two), and proposes
*torgu / *torgo / *trogu / *trogo and the suffix -man. he then
references Paul de Lagarde (Armenische Sudien, 1877 p.58 and
Mittheilungen II, 1877 p. 177) who proposes an Indoeuropean etymology
citing Balto-Slavic *tŭlkŭ : Old church Slavonic tlŭkŭ
"intepretation", tlŭkkovati "to interpret" Bulgarian tlŭkovam "to
interpet", Russian tolkovat' "to interpret" Lithuanian tulkas
"interpreter", tulku°ti "to interpret"
he then goes on to Hittite tark/gummai- , tark/gummiya "to announce",
"to interpete" also "to translate". and says "It is equally possible
that the word is native, or borrowed from Akkadian, from another non-
Akkadian and non-Semitic language".
Sumerian has the unrelated eme-bala (eme "tongue, language", bala
"change")
the Arabic variants borrowed from Aramaic are tarjamān, tarjumān and
turjumān "interpreter".
here is what someone wrote:
http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/library/ane/digest/1996/v1996.n013
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 04:39:08 -0500
From: Gonzalo Rubio <gonz...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
Subject: Re: ane trgm
On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, Peter Daniels wrote:
> Gelb showed that the "targum" words (incl. English dragoman) are Sumerian
> loans rather than a t-formation of rgm. (It may have been in his AOS
> presidential address.)
Peter, you are thinking of Gelb's article in _Glossa_ 2 (1968): 93-104
("The Word for Dragoman in the ANE"). Kaufman points to a possible
Hittite
origin, at least for Aramaic (_The Akkadian Influences on Aramaic_.
Chicago, 1974, p. 107). However, I like the *rgm etymology --and it
sounds quite likely to me (even if the taprusa:n- pattern did not
sound
very Akkadian to Gelb --but taprus- is quite a common pattern
[tamhuSu,
ta:luku, etc.], and the /-a:n/ suffix occurs in rugumma:nu^ etc. [GAG
no.
56 r]).
- ---------------------------
Gonzalo Rubio
Near Eastern Studies
Johns Hopkins University
gonz...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
- ---------------------------
this last post makes sense to me. I would favor a Semitic etymology.
>
>
>
> > : --
> > : Peter T. Daniels gramma...@att.net
>
> here is another response:
>
> From: b.sc...@csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
> Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.languages.arabic
> Subject: Re: Arabic verb 'tarjama'
> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 03:00:46 GMT
> Message-ID: <3d2e43ee....@enews.newsguy.com>
>
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:37:48 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
> >(targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
> >clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
> >borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
>
> Did he really claim that it was *directly* from Sumerian? And if so,
> how? The chain in AHD3 seems far more likely: from OFr <drugeman>,
> from MedLat <dragumannus>, from MedGk <dragoumanos>, from Ar
> <tarjuma:n>, from Aram <tu:rgema:na:>, from Akk <targuma:nu>. (MW
> fills in some of the later steps, giving ME <drogman>, from MFr, from
> OItal <dragomanno>, from MGk <dragomanos>, from Ar <tarjuma:n>, from
> Aram <turgema:na:>.) What's the Sumerian?
also Akkadian targumannum
as I said before teh Sumerianis given as unrelated eme-bala
<<
Semitic etymology :
Number: 3182
Proto-Semitic: *rgm
Meaning: say, speak
Akkadian: ragāmu
Ugaritic: rgm
Aramaic: trgm
Arabic: rǯm, trǯm
Notes: DLU 385
>>
Arabic has rajama "make conjectures about" (or is this somehow
relatedto rajama "hurl stones"?)
Dušan Vukotić
> actually Gelb does not mention Sumerian at all in his etymology. he
> mentions the Semitic etymology then finds difficulty in it because
> alledgedly he finds the suffix -a:nu / -annu difficult to explain in
> Semitic (also noting the vascillation between the two), and proposes
> *torgu / *torgo / *trogu / *trogo and the suffix -man. he then
> references Paul de Lagarde (Armenische Sudien, 1877 p.58 and
> Mittheilungen II, 1877 p. 177) who proposes an Indoeuropean etymology
> citing Balto-Slavic *tŭlkŭ : Old church Slavonic tlŭkŭ
> "intepretation", tlŭkkovati "to interpret" Bulgarian tlŭkovam "to
> interpet", Russian tolkovat' "to interpret" Lithuanian tulkas
> "interpreter", tulku°ti "to interpret"
> he then goes on to Hittite tark/gummai- , tark/gummiya "to announce",
> "to interpete" also "to translate". and says "It is equally possible
> that the word is native, or borrowed from Akkadian, from another non-
> Akkadian and non-Semitic language".
It seems obvious that Slavic tolmač and Turkish dilmaç are closely
related. Turkish dil means 'language, tongue, speech' and it may
indicate that Slavic tolmač is borrowed from Turcic (Altaic) *dil-
*dilgan-.'tongue'.
Dušan Vukotić
Of course, there is another possibility, less plausible, but I think
worthy enough to be mentioned. Namely, is there a chance that Slavic
duma 'idea, thought' is somehow related to tolmač/tumač 'translator,
interpreter' (Ger. Dolmetscher)? Slavic dumati 'to think', dumanje
'thinking' may be a retracted form of dvoumiti (se), dvoumljenje (two
+ mind, think): literally _to think twice_ 'to be indecisive,
hesitate' (Goth. dōmjan 'try, judge', OHG toumen, OE dēman, Eng. doom,
deem). Translation is a sort of "double thinking"(cf. Eng. dub,
dubbing; from double).
DV
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Jul 28, 8:35 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
>
> > actually Gelb does not mention Sumerian at all in his etymology. he
> > mentions the Semitic etymology then finds difficulty in it because
> > alledgedly he finds the suffix -a:nu / -annu difficult to explain in
> > Semitic (also noting the vascillation between the two), and proposes
> > *torgu / *torgo / *trogu / *trogo and the suffix -man. he then
> > references Paul de Lagarde (Armenische Sudien, 1877 p.58 and
> > Mittheilungen II, 1877 p. 177) who proposes an Indoeuropean etymology
> > citing Balto-Slavic *tŭlkŭ : Old church Slavonic tlŭkŭ
> > "intepretation", tlŭkkovati "to interpret" Bulgarian tlŭkovam "to
> > interpet", Russian tolkovat' "to interpret" Lithuanian tulkas
> > "interpreter", tulku°ti "to interpret"
> > he then goes on to Hittite tark/gummai- , tark/gummiya "to announce",
> > "to interpete" also "to translate". and says "It is equally possible
> > that the word is native, or borrowed from Akkadian, from another non-
> > Akkadian and non-Semitic language".
>
> It seems obvious that Slavic tolmač and Turkish dilmaç are closely
the accepted view is that Slavic borrowed it from Turkic from the
Bulghars.
> related. Turkish dil means 'language, tongue, speech' and it may
> indicate that Slavic tolmač is borrowed from Turcic (Altaic) *dil-
older forms in Turkic are with a back vowel dIl
> *dilgan-.'tongue'.
dilgan is related Tungus-Manchu *dilga-n "voice", according to the
starling (Starostin et al) database.
Yusuf B Gursey
yes, that is included.
> 'thinking' may be a retracted form of dvoumiti (se), dvoumljenje (two
> + mind, think): literally _to think twice_ 'to be indecisive,
> hesitate' (Goth. dōmjan 'try, judge', OHG toumen, OE dēman, Eng. doom,
> deem). Translation is a sort of "double thinking"(cf. Eng. dub,
> dubbing; from double).
>
> DV
well, long rangers like Starostin et al (see their database)
reconstruct *dlenghu "tongue" for PIE hence words like "tongue, jazyk,
lingua" etc. but that is speculative.
Dušan Vukotić
But we have to understand how it happened that lingua and dingua came
out of the root *dlengh-. Namely, in many IE languages the name for
tongue is related to the verb to lick (Skr. lehana 'to lick, tasting
or lapping with the tongue', Slavic lizati, Gr. λείχω, Lat. lingo,
Ger. lecken. In Serbo-Slavic languages, the verbs lizati 'lick' and
klizati 'glide, slide' (Russ. скользить) are very close both
phonetically and semantically. Beside these two words there is another
word (dialectal), which denotes the gliding movement or sliding - it
is talizati (taliznuti, talizanje). As we can see, this taliznuti
could (incidentally or not) be derived from the root *dlengh-. Slavic
taljige 'cart' (OSl. тєлѣга; Cz. taliha) seems to be related to the
above word talizanje 'sliding' (from *talig-). Nevertheless, taljiga
can also be a Turkish loanword (taliga), but, according to Vasmer it
is questionable.
Yusuf B Gursey
probably dating to the Bulghars as it is found in Old Church Slavonic.
in Turkic it is only attested in Old Turkic
Turkic etymology :
Proto-Turkic: *Tilgen
Meaning: wheel
Old Turkic: tilgen, tilken (OUygh.)
Comments: EDT 499.
Altaic etymology :
New query
Proto-Altaic: *t`i̯olge
Meaning: a k. of vehicle
Russian meaning: вид повозки
Turkic: *Tilgen ( ˜ -e-)
Mongolian: *telegen
Tungus-Manchu: *tolga
Comments: A Western isogloss. MMong. may be < Turkic (though not
necessarily); a Mongolian source is probable for Chag. tälgän, Nogh.
dial. telegen, KKalp. telegen, see Лексика 534-535 with literature.
Mongolian etymology :
Proto-Mongolian: *telegen
Meaning: vehicle
Russian meaning: повозка, телега
Middle Mongolian: telege(n) (SH)
Tungus etymology :
Proto-Tungus-Manchu: *tolga
Meaning: sleigh (with dogs)
Russian meaning: нарта (собачья)
Evenki: tolgokī; tolgodō- 'to go in a sleigh'
Negidal: tolgoxị̃
Nanai: tolkị
Comments: ТМС 2, 194.
Yusuf B Gursey
Turkish talIga "a small carriage" is a loanword from Hungarian acc.
to Menges, "Oriental Elements in the Vocabulary of the Igor' Tale"
Supplement to Word, Dec. 1951 p.50-51
Menges connects it with *tegirgen, *tegergen "wheel, carriage" < *teg-
ir= *"to turn" also tegirmen "mill" Turkish değirmen "mill". Turkish
has tekerlek "wheel"
Menges thinks all these words are related.
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data...
>
> Turkic etymology :
>
> Proto-Turkic: *Tilgen
>
> Meaning: wheel
>
> Old Turkic: tilgen, tilken (OUygh.)
>
> Comments: EDT 499.
>
> Altaic etymology :
> New query
>
> Proto-Altaic: *t`i̯olge
>
> Meaning: a k. of vehicle
>
> Russian meaning: вид повозки
>
> Turkic: *Tilgen ( ˜ -e-)
>
> Mongolian: *telegen
>
> Tungus-Manchu: *tolga
>
> Comments: A Western isogloss. MMong. may be < Turkic (though not
> necessarily); a Mongolian source is probable for Chag. tälgän, Nogh.
> dial. telegen, KKalp. telegen, see Лексика 534-535 with literature.
>
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data...
>
> Mongolian etymology :
>
> Proto-Mongolian: *telegen
>
> Meaning: vehicle
>
> Russian meaning: повозка, телега
>
> Middle Mongolian: telege(n) (SH)
>
> http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data...
lass...@gmail.com
> Hello !
>
> Two questions about the Arabic verb 'tarjama' (to translate) :
>
> - Being a four-stem verb, I suspect a foreign origin. Am I right? Could
> relationship between these words?
>
> it be '(anā) 'atarjimu'? Which syllable would then be stressed? And the
> past participle?
>
> Thanks !
>
> Raymond
Yusuf B Gursey
Franz Gnaedinger
> Hello !
>
> Two questions about the Arabic verb 'tarjama' (to translate) :
>
> - Being a four-stem verb, I suspect a foreign origin. Am I right? Could
> it be akin to a Turkish word? In German we have the word 'Dolmetscher'
> for 'interpreter', which comes from Turkish I think. Is there any
> relationship between these words?
>
> - What would be the 1st person of 'tarjama' in the present tense? Could
> it be '(anā) 'atarjimu'? Which syllable would then be stressed? And the
> past participle?
>
> Thanks !
a remote past, and then look forward in time.
My Arabic verb you mention as the Semitic root *rgm
as Dragoman and further variations derive from TYR CA MAN,
they who carry out the will of the overcomer TYR in the
sky CA with their right hand MAN, the name or title TYR CA
being a short version of a double formula naming the supreme
weather god of the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age
ShA PAD TYR AS CA
DhAG PAD TYR AS CA
ShA --- ruler
PAD --- activity of feet
TYR --- to overcome in the double sense of rule and give
AS --- upward
CA --- sky
DhAG able, good in the sense of able
The formula contains the names of many gods, for example
ShA PAD TYR Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove
DhAG PAD TYR Dis pater, byname of Jupiter
TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disk,
Derk Ohlenroth)Doric Sseus (Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus
DhAG Dios, genitive of Zeus
TYR PAD TYR Zeus pataer
ShA CA DhAG CA Jahwe, raider of clouds, from Mount Seir (!)
in the Negev
Consider also the Serri bull of the Hurrians
TYR CA Turk-
ShA PAD Shiva
Old words and compounds were often overformed, a famous
example being Abram Abraham in the Bible, the still older
form having been ABA BRA, father ABA right arm BRA, he who
carries out the will of the heavenly father ABA with his
right arm BRA, with a parallel in AAR RAA BRA Arab, they
who carry out the will of the heavenly one of air AAR and
light RAA with their right arm BRA. Aramaean and Armenian
derives from AAR RAA MAN, they who carry out the will of
the heavenly one cof air AAR and light RAA with their
right hand MAN.
A TYR CA MAN carries out the will of the heavenly overcomer
who both rules and gives TYR up above in the sky CA with
his right hand MAN, and also speaks in the name of God
and translates the word form above for the people on earth,
and interprets it, wherefrom the meaning of translate and
interprete, as noun translator and interpreter.
Franz Gnaedinger
Here a better version.
Change the perspective, make an educated guess about
a remote past, and then look forward in time.
'say, speak' and Dragoman and further variations is that they
derive from a very ancient compound TYR CA MAN, they who carry
right hand MAN, the name or title TYR CA being a short version
of a double formula naming the supreme weather god of the
Chalcolithic and Bronze Age
ShA PAD TYR AS CA
DhAG PAD TYR AS CA
ShA --- ruler
PAD --- activity of feet
TYR --- to overcome in the double sense of rule and give
AS --- upward
CA --- sky
DhAG able, good in the sense of able
sense of rule and give TYR up above AS in the sky CA
and is able, good in the sense of able DhAG ...
The formula contains the names of many gods, for example
ShA PAD TYR Jupitter Jupiter Jovis Giove
DhAG PAD TYR Dis pater, byname of Jupiter
TYR emphatic Middle Helladic Sseyr (Phaistos Disk,
TYR PAD TYR Zeus pataer
ShA CA DhAG CA Jahwe, raider of clouds, from Mount Seir (!)
TYR CA Turk-
ShA PAD Shiva
Old words and compounds were often overformed, a famous
example being Abram Abraham in the Bible, the still older
form having been ABA BRA, father ABA right arm BRA, he who
carries out the will of the heavenly father ABA with his
light RAA with their right arm BRA. Aramaean and Armenian
A TYR CA MAN carries out the will of the heavenly overcomer
who both rules and gives TYR up above in the sky CA with his
and translates the word form above for the people on Earth,
interpreting it, wherefrom the meaning of translate and
interprete, as noun translator and interpreter, by and by
transfered from the religious to the profasne realm, quite
a common development also occurring for example in the case
of TYR Sseyr Sseus Zeus, the Middle Helladic form Sseyr
also accounting for French Sieur Monsieur, English Sire Sir,
and for German Herr, a title for every man.
hamido...@gmail.com
> Hello !
>
> Two questions about the Arabic verb 'tarjama' (to translate) :
>
> - Being a four-stem verb, I suspect a foreign origin. Am I right? Could
> it be akin to a Turkish word? In German we have the word 'Dolmetscher'
> for 'interpreter', which comes from Turkish I think. Is there any
> relationship between these words?
>
> - What would be the 1st person of 'tarjama' in the present tense? Could
> it be '(anā) 'atarjimu'? Which syllable would then be stressed? And the
> past participle?
>
> Thanks !
>
نالللتتتتتالخ_èبقاتلامنههههههههههلعغ
hamido...@gmail.com
Dingbat
> Two questions about the Arabic verb 'tarjama' (to translate) :
>
Aramaic (from Akkadian) targum means interpretation more than translation. As for translation, Aramaic (and Mishnaic Hebrew) has a different word:
"The document which you sent us has been read in translation (Aramaic 'mepares') before me"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum
> - Being a four-stem verb, I suspect a foreign origin. Am I right?
Peter T. Daniels
> On Friday, July 12, 2002 at 3:22:54 AM UTC+5:30, Raymond Roy wrote:>
> > Two questions about the Arabic verb 'tarjama' (to translate) :
> >
> Don't know about Arabic; if the response seems irrelevant, please ignore.
>
> Aramaic (from Akkadian) targum means interpretation more than translation. As for translation, Aramaic (and Mishnaic Hebrew) has a different word:
>
> "The document which you sent us has been read in translation (Aramaic 'mepares') before me"
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum
>
> > - Being a four-stem verb, I suspect a foreign origin. Am I right?
>
> Is there a rule that there can't be such a verb in Semitic languages? If targum is originally Akkadian, tarjama seems like its cognate. Of course, a common ancestor of Akkadian and Arabic could have got it from a foreign language.
the TRGM words are probably a borrowing from Sumerian and could then be folk-
analyzed as the root RGM with a t- prefix. "Dragoman" is one of the few
Sumerian-origin words in English.
Yusuf B Gursey
> On Jul 12 2002, 12:25 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@shell01.TheWorld.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > : Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > :>
> > :> Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > :>
> > :> : Gelb claimed that English "dragoman" comes directly from Sumerian
> > :>
> > :> ?
> > :>
> > :> "mike" has made a valid point here.
> > :>
> > :> : (targumannu, the Akkadian source of the general Near Eastern word, is
> > :> : clearly borrowed from Sumerian), but the Sumerian form may well be a
> > :> : borrowing of Semitic ragâmu, which has to do with making noise.
>
> > : So read his brief article!
>
> > reference?
>
> found it after all these years:
>
> "The Word for Dragoman in the Ancient Near East," Glossa 2 (1968): 93-104.
mentions the Semitic etymology then finds difficulty in it because
alledgedly he finds the suffix -a:nu / -annu difficult to explain in
Semitic (also noting the vascillation between the two), and proposes
*torgu / *torgo / *trogu / *trogo and the suffix -man. he then
references Paul de Lagarde (Armenische Sudien, 1877 p.58 and
Mittheilungen II, 1877 p. 177) who proposes an Indoeuropean etymology
citing Balto-Slavic *tŭlkŭ : Old church Slavonic tlŭkŭ
"intepretation", tlŭkkovati "to interpret" Bulgarian tlŭkovam "to
interpet", Russian tolkovat' "to interpret" Lithuanian tulkas
"interpreter", tulku°ti "to interpret"
he then goes on to Hittite tark/gummai- , tark/gummiya "to announce",
"to interpete" also "to translate". and says "It is equally possible
that the word is native, or borrowed from Akkadian, from another non-
Akkadian and non-Semitic language".
Franz Gnaedinger
> Hello !
>
>
> for 'interpreter', which comes from Turkish I think. Is there any
> relationship between these words?
>
> - What would be the 1st person of 'tarjama' in the present tense? Could
> it be '(anā) 'atarjimu'? Which syllable would then be stressed? And the
> past participle?
>
> Thanks !
>
Aramaic: air AAR light RAA right hand MAN, they who carry out the will of
the one of air AAR and light RAA with their right hand MAN. The full name
of the sky god as AAR RAA NOS, he of air AAR and light RAA with a mind NOS,
visualized ex negativo by the big limestone ring on the Göbekli Tepe,
his face inside the ring nothing than air and ligt
http://www.seshat.ch/home/ouranos.JPG
AAR RAA NOS became Ouranos, and Varuna in the Indus Valley. An alternative
from is AAR RAA CA, he of air and light in the sky CA. Varuna was relegated
to the Underworld, as the sun god Sol of Latium, and the same for AAR RAA
who became the night god Hurri, while the day god was Serri, emphatic form
of TYR for the one who overcomes in the double sense of rule and give,
Sseyr on the Phaistos Disc as deciphered by Derk Ohlenroth, Doric Sseus
(Wilhelm Larfeld) Homeric Zeus. Jahwe resides on Mount Seir in the Negev,
also he an overcomer in the double sense of rule and give, 'rider of clouds'.
TYR CA names the overcomer TYR in the sky CA, wherein I see the origin of
Turk, while the longer form TYR CA MAN, analogous to the above AAR RA MAN,
designates the one who carries out the will of the overcomer TYR in the
sky CA with his right hand MAN. Writing had been a most eclusive art in
early times, and someone who could not only read and write but also
translate a document from a foreign to his own language was almost
a magician, in the service of the heavenly overcomer, carrying out His
will with his right hand ... A similar idea underlies the name of Abraham,
formerly Abram, which I derive from ABA BRA (MAN), he who carries out
the will of the (heavenly) father ABA with his right arm BRA (and his
right hand MAN). While Brahman who created the world by playing his lyra
derives from BRA MAN, he who played the lyra with his right arm BRA
and his right hand MAN ...
Franz Gnaedinger
for the continuation.
If you accept my reconstruction TYR CA MAN in the above variety including
translator you can easily get from the hypothetical compound to tarjama 'translate'
TYR CA MAN TYR gA MAN TaR jA MA tarjama
By the way, Vasconic theory of early language has two chief witnesses
(German Kronzeugen), valleys like Val d'Aran, and rivers like Douro
and Thur. The latter derive from TYR, naming the river as overcomer
that rules a valley but also gives (fish, water, fertility), while the
former derives from AAR RAA NOS and AAR RAA MAN, for example two confluent
valleys in the Alps of Western Switzerland, Val d' Hérens (from AAR RAA NOS)
and Val d'Hérémence (from AAR RAA MAN), a valley being a hollow between hills
or mountains filled with air and light ... AAR RAA NOS on the Göbekli Tepe
was implored for rain, rain that fills river beds and water holes.
Accordingly also rivers are named for the god, for example the Arno of
Tuscany, the Arura Aare in Switzerland, combined with REO for river present
in Rhenus Rhine and Rhodanus Rhone, all three rivers Rhine Rhone and Aare
springing from the Swiss Alps, partly in the region called Raeto-Roman
which I derive from RYT for archer and REO MAN Roman, they who carry out
the will of the river goddess REO with their right hand MAN ... A further
variety of AAR RAA NOS that intrigues me occurs in Nepal, in the river Aran
(if memory serves). Makes me wonder how old that name might be.
Yusuf B Gursey
> > Let me propose a Magdalenian etymology. AAR RAA MAN Araman and the language
> > Aramaic: air AAR light RAA right hand MAN, they who carry out the will of
>
> for the continuation.
>
> If you accept my reconstruction TYR CA MAN in the above variety including
Yusuf B Gursey
> > On Friday, July 12, 2002 at 3:22:54 AM UTC+5:30, Raymond Roy wrote:>
> > > Two questions about the Arabic verb 'tarjama' (to translate) :
> > >
> > Don't know about Arabic; if the response seems irrelevant, please ignore.
> >
> > Aramaic (from Akkadian) targum means interpretation more than translation. As for translation, Aramaic (and Mishnaic Hebrew) has a different word:
> >
> > "The document which you sent us has been read in translation (Aramaic 'mepares') before me"
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum
> >
> > > - Being a four-stem verb, I suspect a foreign origin. Am I right?
> >
> > Is there a rule that there can't be such a verb in Semitic languages? If targum is originally Akkadian, tarjama seems like its cognate. Of course, a common ancestor of Akkadian and Arabic could have got it from a foreign language.
>
and Aramaic from Late Assyrian.
From tarjuma:n Arabic derives tarjama "to translate", "to interprete".
In modern Arabic tarjuma:n is a dragoman: interpeter and guide
for foreigners while mutarjim (active part. of tarjama) is
a translator or interpreter in a more general sense.
> There are a number of quadriradicals in Semitic, but not a large number.
>
> the TRGM words are probably a borrowing from Sumerian and could then be folk-
> analyzed as the root RGM with a t- prefix. "Dragoman" is one of the few
> Sumerian-origin words in English.
It seems to be from raga:mu "to shout", "to call" (Ugaritic
has <rgm> *to speak")
ta- preformative, with the suffix -a:nu
Arabic has rajama meaning "to throw stones" or "to speak
conjecturally".
However, Gelb finds difficulties in these and prefers
to derive it from IE through Hittite.
Franz Gnaedinger
threads, which is why the long expired Vonyich thread and tarjama thread
resurfaced. By the way, thar river in Nepal is called Arun. Ouranos and
Zeus have not just been Greek sky gods, they have been international gods.
And Mesopotamia had been 'invaded' by Late Magdalenian tribes coming from
the Göbekli Tepe region, so it is worthwhile to look out for MAgdalenian
traces in those languages.