A question about Russian/English Semantics
George A. Senf
English. The idea I have is something like the difference between the
English word "love" and the several of Biblical Greek words for Love.
I'm thinking about a vin diagram where all forms of the Greek forms
would overlap the English word "love." But I would like to see a few
examples from Russian. My student continues to translate from Russian
even the meanings do not overlap completely. Denotation may be similar
but Connotations are different.
Thanks for your aid.
Joe Fineman
I'm not quite sure this is what you are looking for, but one thing
that struck me when I was studying Russian was the difference in the
way the two languages map the human limbs. There is no equivalent in
Russian for either "hand" or "arm", and there is no equivalent in
English for either "ruka" or "kist'".
--
--- Joe Fineman j...@TheWorld.com
||: When there's no news in the truth, there's no truth in the :||
||: news. :||
(Speaking of Russian!)
Richard Herring
A couple of examples from phrases regularly in the news:
Mir - "peace" or "world" ?
Red Square - krasniy doesn't just mean "red" but has connotations
like English "golden".
IIRC. It's been a long time since I studied it.
--
Richard Herring | <richard...@baesystems.com>
Nicola Nobili
> Red Square - krasniy doesn't just mean "red" but has connotations
> like English "golden".
Doesn't "krasnyj" mean "beutiful" in this context? In modern Czech, for
instance, krasny' still means "beautiful". "Golden" should be "zolotoj" or
"zolotistyj", according to the shade of meaning.
Bye,
Nicola
--
Multa non quia difficilia sunt non audemus, sed quia non audemus sunt
difficilia (Seneca).
Jeff
> George A. Senf (georg...@verizon.net) wrote:
> > I'm looking for some examples of word overlap between Russian and
> > English. The idea I have is something like the difference between the
> > English word "love" and the several of Biblical Greek words for Love.
> > I'm thinking about a vin diagram where all forms of the Greek forms
> > would overlap the English word "love." But I would like to see a few
> > examples from Russian. My student continues to translate from Russian
> > even the meanings do not overlap completely. Denotation may be similar
> > but Connotations are different.
>
> A couple of examples from phrases regularly in the news:
>
> Mir - "peace" or "world" ?
True enough.
> Red Square - krasny doesn't just mean "red" but has connotations
> like English "golden".
No. "Krasniy" used to mean "beautiful"; "Krasnaya Ploshchad'" is an
historical name. This usage of "krasny" can be found in fairy-tales:
"krasnaya devitsa", etc.
In general, it is quite impossible to find words that mean *exactly*
the same thing. The only exception is scientific terminology, and
often not even then.
Kislorod = oxygen (either O or O2, whatever), but
"Mne kisloroda ne khvataet" --- "I can't get enough air"
^^^^^^^^^ ^^^
Tough luck. :)
Jeff Lanam
Not sure if this is what you mean, but as a student of Russian, I'm
struck by the fact that there is no single word in Russian for "blue".
There are two: "goluboy" for light blue, and "ceney" for dark blue.
I suppose there are a lot of similar situations in other languages,
where color words don't match up.
Nicola Nobili
> Not sure if this is what you mean, but as a student of Russian, I'm
> struck by the fact that there is no single word in Russian for "blue".
This is rather widespread. In Italian, for instance (the language of
painters, among other things), words for colours are abundant. The national
team, whose colour is light blue, is called "azzurri", whereas UNO's "Blue
Helmets" (is this the English name?) are "blu".
> There are two: "goluboy" for light blue, and "ceney" for dark blue.
May I kindly enquire why you transcribed it as "ceney"? I mean,
transcriptions may vary, alas! (I generally stick to the "scientific" one,
so I would write "sinij"). But why the initial "c"? The "soft" pronunciation
of "c" is a totally arbitrary choice of the English language, I can't see
any reason why you shouldn't simply use "s" when transcribing from another
language.
Paul J Kriha
>r...@gmrc.gecm.com (Richard Herring) wrote in message
news:<9kdp59$6pg$1...@miranda.gmrc.gecm.com>...
>> George A. Senf (georg...@verizon.net) wrote:
>> > I'm looking for some examples of word overlap between Russian and
>> > English. The idea I have is something like the difference between the
>> > English word "love" and the several of Biblical Greek words for Love.
>> > I'm thinking about a vin diagram where all forms of the Greek forms
>> > would overlap the English word "love." But I would like to see a few
>> > examples from Russian. My student continues to translate from Russian
>> > even the meanings do not overlap completely. Denotation may be similar
>> > but Connotations are different.
>>
>> A couple of examples from phrases regularly in the news:
>>
>> Mir - "peace" or "world" ?
>
>True enough.
But it's usually clear which is which from the context.
In these two examples
Mir miru!
Mir mira.
It's clear which is which, isn't it? :-)
Paul JK.
--
Know what's weird? Day by day nothing seems to
change, but pretty soon everything is different.
Jeff
Before the language reform in the early 20s, there were more letters
than there are now; in terms of the old alphabet, "mir" peace and
"mir" world had different spellings, though they were pronounced the
same. After the reform, only the *backwards N* was left, and these
words became identical.
Now I don't know how true the following is, so beware! One should
never trust hearsay too much...
Lev Tolstoy's book "War and Peace" ("Voina i mir") should have been
translated "War and the World"! Someone, the story goes, made a
mistake...
Perhaps someone can put the record right?..
Paul J Kriha
But, what you have just said about the spelling
reform more than a decade after Tolstoy died
prooves that it is a load of bull.
Or are you seriously suggesting that Lev Tolstoy
misspelled a title of his own book?
Paul JK
Rob Bannister
I know I was always confused by the old communist banners - I was never sure
whether they meant 'We are fighting for peace' or 'Let's fight for the world.'
-- Rob Bannister
Perth, Western Australia.
Jeff
The story didn't seem very credible to me, either. But confirmations
are reassuring. :)
Anatoly Vorobey
>Now I don't know how true the following is, so beware! One should
>never trust hearsay too much...
>
>Lev Tolstoy's book "War and Peace" ("Voina i mir") should have been
>translated "War and the World"! Someone, the story goes, made a
>mistake...
It's a very widespread urban legend, and is completely wrong. All editions
of "War and Peace" published during Tolstoy's life were called "Vojna i
mNr", with mNr=peace, rather than mir=world. Moreover, there existed
*authorised* translations to English and French in the 19th century.
Since this version (that the title was ostensibly written with mir=world)
has incredible intellectual appeal ("everybody's got it wrong except me"),
it's been widely propagated. People would rathre believe it and spread it
further than actually go to a library and check a pre-reform edition.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mel...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
Richard Herring
> Richard Herring
> > Red Square - krasniy doesn't just mean "red" but has connotations
> > like English "golden".
> Doesn't "krasnyj" mean "beutiful" in this context? In modern Czech, for
> instance, krasny' still means "beautiful". "Golden" should be "zolotoj" or
> "zolotistyj", according to the shade of meaning.
Yes. I didn't mean that krasniy *means* golden; just that it has
a connotation of something more than a colour name, in the same way
that "golden" doesn't just mean "metallic yellow" in Englosh.
--
Richard Herring | <richard...@baesystems.com>
Richard Herring
> r...@gmrc.gecm.com (Richard Herring) wrote in message news:<9kdp59$6pg$1...@miranda.gmrc.gecm.com>...
> > Red Square - krasny doesn't just mean "red" but has connotations
> > like English "golden".
> No.
No?
> "Krasniy" used to mean "beautiful"; "Krasnaya Ploshchad'" is an
> historical name. This usage of "krasny" can be found in fairy-tales:
> "krasnaya devitsa", etc.
Then you mean "yes" above. It's not just an adjective of colour,
but suggests something in an emotional register. The same is true,
mutatis mutandis, of the English word "golden". I was not
suggesting that the two words have the *same* meaning, just that
they both have an additional meaning beyond the literal one of
spectral analysis.
--
Richard Herring | <richard...@baesystems.com>
Peter T. Daniels
_I_ understood you, anyway.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Richard Herring
> _I_ understood you, anyway.
Much obliged.
--
Richard Herring | <richard...@baesystems.com>
Jeff
> Jeff (i...@online.ru) wrote:
> > r...@gmrc.gecm.com (Richard Herring) wrote in message news:<9kdp59$6pg$1...@miranda.gmrc.gecm.com>...
>
> > > Red Square - krasny doesn't just mean "red" but has connotations
> > > like English "golden".
>
> > historical name. This usage of "krasny" can be found in fairy-tales:
> > "krasnaya devitsa", etc.
>
> Then you mean "yes" above. It's not just an adjective of colour,
> but suggests something in an emotional register. The same is true,
> mutatis mutandis, of the English word "golden". I was not
> suggesting that the two words have the *same* meaning, just that
> they both have an additional meaning beyond the literal one of
> spectral analysis.
I'm not sure what you mean. There is a difference between connotation
and meaning, at least as I understand these two terms.
"Krasny" doesn't suggest anything in the emotional register. Just in
certain contexts it has a different meaning, that's it.
Jeff
>
> Since this version (that the title was ostensibly written with mir=world)
> has incredible intellectual appeal ("everybody's got it wrong except me"),
> it's been widely propagated. People would rathre believe it and spread it
> further than actually go to a library and check a pre-reform edition.
My fault. I hereby swear to never spread this rumor any further. :)
Phil Dragoman
Jeff wrote in message ...
[snip]
>words became identical.
>
>Now I don't know how true the following is, so beware! One should
>never trust hearsay too much...
>
>Lev Tolstoy's book "War and Peace" ("Voina i mir") should have been
>translated "War and the World"! Someone, the story goes, made a
>mistake...
Yes, including the mistakes of all the translators of all the languages
into which it was translated. ;-)
>
>Perhaps someone can put the record right?..
I believe the original title was "Vojna i svet" which more ambigously,
if less euphoniously, describes the theme of the novel. :-)
How about other mistranslations? "Fathers and Children", "Devils"?
And Dickens would have had a field day with "Oblomov".
Regards,
Phil
Jeff Lanam
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Jeff Lanam
>
>> There are two: "goluboy" for light blue, and "ceney" for dark blue.
>
> May I kindly enquire why you transcribed it as "ceney"? I mean,
>transcriptions may vary, alas! (I generally stick to the "scientific" one,
>so I would write "sinij"). But why the initial "c"? The "soft" pronunciation
>of "c" is a totally arbitrary choice of the English language, I can't see
>any reason why you shouldn't simply use "s" when transcribing from another
>language.
I'm not a linguist, just an interested layman. You're right, "s"
would be unambiguous. I've seen several different transcriptions in
the various texts I'm trying to learn from; I suspect most would use
"s". I think I was just sloppy; the letters that look the same but
have different sounds are the easiest to mistake.
I read a story that foreigners in Soviet Moscow had two classes
of restaurants: the good ones were "restaran", the ones that catered
to Russians were "pectopah", which of course is how you spell the
word in Cyrillic. I still have trouble seeing PECTOPAH as "restaran".
Nicola Nobili
> I read a story that foreigners in Soviet Moscow had two classes
> of restaurants: the good ones were "restaran", the ones that catered
> to Russians were "pectopah", which of course is how you spell the
> word in Cyrillic. I still have trouble seeing PECTOPAH as "restaran".
Incidentally, another anecdote. Many people know that "kafe" is the only
Russian word ending in "e" of masculine gender. I was taught it is so
because when coffee entered the country, it was "kafej", the final "short i"
clearly made it masculine, but later on it was dropped. Nowadays some
uneducated Russians, because of the spelling, use it as a neuter noun. A
teacher at the University of Moscow ones hilariously said: "Kafe is neuter
when you drink it in a poor university canteen, but it is masculine when you
sip it in an elegant restaurant".
Phil Dragoman
Nicola Nobili wrote in message <9kn7tj$5jrks$2...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>...
>Jeff Lanam
>> I read a story that foreigners in Soviet Moscow had two classes
>> of restaurants: the good ones were "restaran", the ones that catered
>> to Russians were "pectopah", which of course is how you spell the
>> word in Cyrillic. I still have trouble seeing PECTOPAH as "restaran".
Don't feel bad. My sister, who hasn't studied Russian, once took down
my copy of Anna Karenina, and asked, what's this, Ahha Kapehuha?
And Doctor Zhivago became 'Noktop Kenbaro'. Not sure how she got
that one. But I can tell you, a lot of the tragedy has gone out of 'Ahha
Kapehuha' for me. Also out of Dr. Zhivago - but that was because of
the travesty Julie Christie and Omar Sharif made of it. Not to mention
the schmaltzy sound track.
>
> Incidentally, another anecdote. Many people know that "kafe" is the only
>Russian word ending in "e" of masculine gender. I was taught it is so
>because when coffee entered the country, it was "kafej", the final "short i"
>clearly made it masculine, but later on it was dropped. Nowadays some
>uneducated Russians, because of the spelling, use it as a neuter noun. A
>teacher at the University of Moscow ones hilariously said: "Kafe is neuter
>when you drink it in a poor university canteen, but it is masculine when you
>sip it in an elegant restaurant".
>
V samom dele 'kofe' (muzhskogo roda) pjut v 'kafe' (srednego roda). ;-)
In a similar vein, someone told me Polish 'herbata' (tea) is for at home
and the neighborhood restaurant, but it's 'czaj' at the overpriced "English
Tea Room" in Kraków. Or maybe I've got that backwards.
S serdechnym privetom,
Phil
.
Paul J Kriha
>>translated "War and the World"! Someone, the story goes, made a
>>mistake...
>
>Yes, including the mistakes of all the translators of all the languages
>into which it was translated. ;-)
>
>>Perhaps someone can put the record right?..
>
>I believe the original title was "Vojna i svet" which more ambigously,
>if less euphoniously, describes the theme of the novel. :-)
I start another rumour, it was really called "Temnota i svet" :-)
Paul JK
>Phil
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
Ooops! I must be particularly absent minded in this period (maybe it's
because of the scorching weather?). I was supposed to write "kofe"
(the drink), of course. But you got the point, I see.
One more anecdote. SOme years ago PAul McCartney released a special
album for the USSR, called "CHOBA B CCCP" ("BAck in the USSR"). Once I
saw it a friend's house and I said: "Ah! You have /'snova vEsEsEsEr/".
She looked blank. I pointed at the cd. "Ah, you mean /tSOba bi
tSitSitSipi/!"
> S serdechnym privetom,
Vam tozhe, do skorogo,
Nikola (!)
Phil Dragoman
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote in
message ...
It must be the weather - scorching here too. I just read that phrase
with "CHOBA" and I was thinking, choba? what is choba? Is that a
dance style I missed? Then light dawned on marblehead!
I'm think I'll go read a chapter of Ahha Kapehuha. ;-)
Regards,
Phil
Phil Dragoman
Paul J Kriha wrote in message <9kq5ql$vk_...@actrix.co.nz>...
>In article <9kme5q$5b02m$1...@ID-60297.news.dfncis.de>, "Phil Dragoman"
><phildr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>Jeff wrote in message ...
>>[snip]
>>>
>>>Lev Tolstoy's book "War and Peace" ("Voina i mir") should have been
>>>translated "War and the World"! Someone, the story goes, made a
>>>mistake...
>>
>>Yes, including the mistakes of all the translators of all the languages
>>into which it was translated. ;-)
>>
>>>Perhaps someone can put the record right?..
>>
>>I believe the original title was "Vojna i svet" which more ambigously,
>>if less euphoniously, describes the theme of the novel. :-)
>
>I start another rumour, it was really called "Temnota i svet" :-)
>
LOL.
But didn't Dostoevski write one called "Zatemnenije i Osveshchenije"? ;-)
Regards,
Phil
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Jeff Lanam
>
>> Not sure if this is what you mean, but as a student of Russian, I'm
>> struck by the fact that there is no single word in Russian for "blue".
>
> This is rather widespread. In Italian, for instance (the language of
>painters, among other things),
Maybe *Italian* painters. To my knowledge, none of the Korean, American,
or German painters I admire speak a word of it (unless that word is
"ciao").
>words for colours are abundant. The national
>team, whose colour is light blue, is called "azzurri", whereas UNO's "Blue
>Helmets" (is this the English name?) are "blu".
[snip]
What I find especially interesting is that neither of these words is de-
rived from Latin. Colour names in many Romance languages--as well as the
system or colour names itself--were adopted from the Germanic languages.
(In this case, however, Italian, like Spanish, also draws from Arabic.)
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Anatoly Vorobey
Phil Dragoman <phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>
>V samom dele 'kofe' (muzhskogo roda) pjut v 'kafe' (srednego roda). ;-)
"V samom dele" - indeed
"Na samom dele" - actually - that's what you needed there ;)
Anatoly Vorobey
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
> Incidentally, another anecdote. Many people know that "kafe" is the only
>Russian word ending in "e" of masculine gender. I was taught it is so
>because when coffee entered the country, it was "kafej", the final "short i"
>clearly made it masculine, but later on it was dropped. Nowadays some
>uneducated Russians, because of the spelling, use it as a neuter noun.
Actually, 'kofe' as neuter is not a symptom of lack of education, and hasn't
been for some time. Recently it even entered the (traditionally conservative,
prescriptive) dictionaries, where it's usual now to see 'kofe' designated
as "m. or sr." . Its earlier form was "kofij".
Also, since Russian lacks true vocative case, I suppose a case could be made
that "Bozhe" is another masculine word ending in "e".
Nicola Nobili
> Maybe *Italian* painters. To my knowledge, none of the Korean, American,
> or German painters I admire speak a word of it (unless that word is
> "ciao").
Most of them speak a lot more. Indeed, Italian has lent a wide range of
artistic terms to most languages. You may find them even in English.
What I meant is, Italian was a language mainly used, among other things,
by artists and to describe art. It became a language widely used in daily
life in relatively recent times. Italian was definitely not the language of
bakers or carpenters, but it was the language of painters, poets and
intellectuals. If I offended someone, I apologise.
> What I find especially interesting is that neither of these words is de-
> rived from Latin. Colour names in many Romance languages--as well as the
> system or colour names itself--were adopted from the Germanic languages.
> (In this case, however, Italian, like Spanish, also draws from Arabic.)
Well, if one doesn't stop at the fundamental colour and examines the
ones generally used by painters and art experts, one will find that a lot of
shades of colours are of Latin origins.
By the way, what do you mean by "colour system"?
Nicola Nobili
> "V samom dele" - indeed
> "Na samom dele" - actually - that's what you needed there ;)
A-ah! So there is a slight difference between the two! But I still don't
fully get it. I mean, I'm thinking of their English equivalents, which sound
rather similar to me, and trying to translate them into Italian, or to think
of some examples...
Could you please provide a couple of sentences with the two, just to
make it clearer?
Brian M. Scott
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Anatoly Vorobey
>
>> "V samom dele" - indeed
>> "Na samom dele" - actually - that's what you needed there ;)
>
> A-ah! So there is a slight difference between the two! But I still don't
>fully get it. I mean, I'm thinking of their English equivalents, which sound
>rather similar to me
The English words are used quite differently. 'Indeed' in this sort
of context implies agreement; 'actually' implies disagreement. If I
say 'I think that <mela> is feminine', you might say 'It is indeed
feminine'. If I say 'I think that <mela> is masculine, you might say
'Actually, it's feminine'.
>, and trying to translate them into Italian, or to think
>of some examples...
> Could you please provide a couple of sentences with the two, just to
>make it clearer?
Brian
Anatoly Vorobey
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Anatoly Vorobey
>
>> "V samom dele" - indeed
>> "Na samom dele" - actually - that's what you needed there ;)
>
> A-ah! So there is a slight difference between the two! But I still don't
>fully get it. I mean, I'm thinking of their English equivalents, which sound
>rather similar to me, and trying to translate them into Italian, or to think
>of some examples...
> Could you please provide a couple of sentences with the two, just to
>make it clearer?
"V samom dele" confirms; "na samom dele" contradicts. Brian's given
convincing examples in English.
In Russian:
V samom dele, v samom dele
Vse sgoreli karuseli!
(taken from a famous children's poem by Chukovskij ;))
A. Volga vpadaet v Chernoe more.
B. Na samom dele, Volga vpadaet v Kaspijskoe more.
Here, "v samom dele" is impossible.
Phil Dragoman
Anatoly Vorobey wrote in message ...
>On Mon, 6 Aug 2001 20:09:30 -0400,
>Phil Dragoman <phil.d...@literally.com> wrote:
>>
>>V samom dele 'kofe' (muzhskogo roda) pjut v 'kafe' (srednego roda). ;-)
>
>"V samom dele" - indeed
>"Na samom dele" - actually - that's what you needed there ;)
>
Arrrgghhhhh. I always confuse them. Thanks for the correction (and the
explanation in your other post).
Regards,
Phil
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>
>> Maybe *Italian* painters. To my knowledge, none of the Korean, American,
>> or German painters I admire speak a word of it (unless that word is
>> "ciao").
>
> Most of them speak a lot more.
Can you support that assertion?
(Note that I don't consider dropping terms like "chiaroscuro" and "alla
prima" in English or German "speaking Italian". If that's "speaking
Italian", then I speak Latin every time I open my mouth.)
>Indeed, Italian has lent a wide range of
>artistic terms to most languages. You may find them even in English.
I do, but this isn't what you said before (and deleted in your reply).
Probably as many technical artistic terms entered English from French as
from Italian.
> What I meant is, Italian was a language mainly used, among other things,
>by artists and to describe art. It became a language widely used in daily
>life in relatively recent times. Italian was definitely not the language of
>bakers or carpenters, but it was the language of painters, poets and
>intellectuals.
Michelangelo was a painter from a family of bankers. At what point did he
cease speaking Florentine and pick up Italian? What did he speak to his
father and what did his father answer back in?
> If I offended someone, I apologise.
It takes more than a ludicrous generalisation to offend me.
>> What I find especially interesting is that neither of these words is de-
>> rived from Latin. Colour names in many Romance languages--as well as the
>> system or colour names itself--were adopted from the Germanic languages.
>> (In this case, however, Italian, like Spanish, also draws from Arabic.)
>
> Well, if one doesn't stop at the fundamental colour and examines the
>ones generally used by painters and art experts, one will find that a lot of
>shades of colours are of Latin origins.
And a lot aren't.
> By the way, what do you mean by "colour system"?
As I understand it, Latin-speakers had a colour system more similar to
that of earlier Welsh than modern English or French. The basic colour
terms described tones as much as hues. Thus, <ceruleus> was a dark colour
that varied in hue from black, to sky blue, to dark green. <Lividus>
could be the blue of a bruise or leaden gray. And so forth.
(Compare Welsh <glas>, which can describe anything from sky blue to grass
green to stone gray. [In modern Welsh, under the influence of English, it
has been increasingly equated with "blue". <gwyrdd>, a borrowing of Latin
<viridis> which originally meant only "bright green, spring green", has
become the equivalent of English "green" or Spanish "verde".])
Vulgar Latin had no single, unambiguous term for the hue "blue", result-
ing in the borrowing of either Germanic *blawo- or Arabic *lazward (ultim-
ately from Persian).
Brian M. Scott
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
[...]
>Vulgar Latin had no single, unambiguous term for the hue "blue", result-
>ing in the borrowing of either Germanic *blawo- or Arabic *lazward (ultim-
>ately from Persian).
Amusingly enough, though, they had a cognate in <flavus>. (For that
matter, the Gmc. word has covered a pretty impressive semantic range
just in Gmc.)
Brian
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Brian M. Scott <sc...@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 21:07:00 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
>Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>Vulgar Latin had no single, unambiguous term for the hue "blue", result-
>>ing in the borrowing of either Germanic *blawo- or Arabic *lazward (ultim-
>>ately from Persian).
>
>Amusingly enough, though, they had a cognate in <flavus>.
What does that cover in Latin? I think it describes the colour of ripe
wheat and other bright, golden shades, but I'm not too sure where its
boundaries are.
>(For that
>matter, the Gmc. word has covered a pretty impressive semantic range
>just in Gmc.)
Has it been suggested that all of Indo-European originally had a more
"tonal" colour system and many or most of the languages shifted to hue-
based ones?
Brian M. Scott
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>In article <3b71be0b....@enews.newsguy.com>,
>Brian M. Scott <sc...@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:
>>On Wed, 08 Aug 2001 21:07:00 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
>>Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>Vulgar Latin had no single, unambiguous term for the hue "blue", result-
>>>ing in the borrowing of either Germanic *blawo- or Arabic *lazward (ultim-
>>>ately from Persian).
>>
>>Amusingly enough, though, they had a cognate in <flavus>.
>
>What does that cover in Latin? I think it describes the colour of ripe
>wheat and other bright, golden shades, but I'm not too sure where its
>boundaries are.
I'm not nearly enough of a Latinist to know, but here's what Lewis &
Short have to offer (courtesy of Perseus):
flavus , a, um, adj. [for flag-vus from FLAG, flagro, burning,
light-colored] , golden yellow, reddish yellow, flaxen-colored,
xanthos (mostly poet.): color, Col. 4, 3, 4 : mellis dulci flavoque
liquore, Lucr. 1, 938 ; 4, 13: mella, Mart. 1, 56, 10 : aurum, Verg.
A. 1, 592 : Ceres, id. G. 1, 96 ; cf. of the same: et te, flava comas,
frugum mitissima mater, Ov. M. 6, 118 : mare marmore flavo, Enn. ap.
Gell. 2, 26 (Ann. v. 377 ed. Vahl.): arva, Verg. G. 1, 316 : crines,
id. A. 12, 605 : coma, Hor. C. 1, 5, 4 ; cf.: Galanthis flava comas,
Ov. M. 9, 307 : flavus comarum Curio, Sil. 9, 414 : Ganymedes, Hor. C.
4, 4, 4 : Phyllis, id. ib. 2, 4, 14 : Chloė, id. ib. 3, 9, 19 :
Tiberis, reddish yellow (from the puzzolan earth on its ground), id.
ib. 1, 2, 13; 1, 8, 8; 2, 3, 18: Tiberinus multa flavus harena, Verg.
A. 7, 31 ; Ov. M. 14, 447: Lycormas, id. ib. 2, 245 : pudor,blushing,
Sen. Hippol. 652 : capillus in flavum colorem, Vulg. Lev. 13, 36 ;
30.-- Subst.: an de moneta Caesaris decem flavos, gold pieces (cf.
Engl. yellow-boys), Mart. 12, 65, 6.--Comp.: flavior, Boėth. ap.
Porphyr. Dial. 2, p. 31.
The etymology's apparently wrong, though the words are related.
Watkins refers <flagrant> and <flavus> to *bhleg- and *bhL@-wo-,
respectively (with *L for the syllabic resonant).
I know that in the Middle Ages it was sometimes used to Latinize
bynames meaning 'blond(e)', 'fair-haired', etc.
>>(For that
>>matter, the Gmc. word has covered a pretty impressive semantic range
>>just in Gmc.)
>Has it been suggested that all of Indo-European originally had a more
>"tonal" colour system and many or most of the languages shifted to hue-
>based ones?
Again, I don't know. I do know that in both Germanic and Celtic there
are words that cover a range something like 'shining, white', which
seems more tonal than hue-based. I also know that some color words
seem to be secondary senses: Watkins derives <black> from Gmc. *blakaz
'burned', for instance, and <orange> as a color is from the fruit.
Brian
Nicola Nobili
> Can you support that assertion?
>
> (Note that I don't consider dropping terms like "chiaroscuro" and "alla
> prima" in English or German "speaking Italian". If that's "speaking
> Italian", then I speak Latin every time I open my mouth.)
I would distinguish loan words which remain unaltered in the TL, and
which are often perceived as foreign words, and loan words which are
adjusted to the spelling and/or phonetic system of the TL.
Italian words spelled like in Italian and pronounced (insofar as
possible) like the original Italian pronunciation are to be considered, in
my opinion, Italian words used in other languages. In the same way, I call
many common words we use in Italian (e.g. jogging, provider, gossip, etc.)
"English words". Other words of English origin, like "bistecca" (from "beef
steak") obviously do not belong to this category.
If you take a look at an art book, you'll find that English passages are
teeming with cupolas or porticoes, that artists love painting frescos and
making Pietàs (do you use the -s to mark the plural even in a loan word
which ends in a stressed vowel?), and if you ever play an instrument, even
if it is not a "piano" or "cello" (aka "pianoforte" and "violoncello"), a
"trombone" or a "fagotto", you'll find it hard to read a staff or study
music theory without frequently coming across "andante", "allegro",
"appoggiatura", "sordino", "fortissimo" and its counterpart "pianissimo",
and singers ("sopranos" and "altos" in primis) often deal with "bel canto" -
not to mention the "opera", which is very often in Italian.
I cannot see any good reason why these words should not be defined as
"Italian words". You previously stated that those artists you know "do not
speak one word of Italian". I personally do not know those people, but I
seriously doubt that they never use these words, and many more.
> I do, but this isn't what you said before (and deleted in your reply).
> Probably as many technical artistic terms entered English from French as
> from Italian.
Not really. Or rather, the ones which entered English through French can
be easily recognised, since the French have always modified them more
clearly than the English have. What is more, I was not referring to them.
Do not forget that during the Renaissance, the age when modern arts were
codified, the main language of culture in Europe was Italian and all other
national languages in the continent imported tons of words from the
boot-shaped peninsula.
> Michelangelo was a painter from a family of bankers. At what point did he
> cease speaking Florentine and pick up Italian? What did he speak to his
> father and what did his father answer back in?
I'm starting to believe that my why of speaking is hardly compatible
with yours... Joking aside, you seem to take my metaphoric/symbolic
statements rather too literally.
For a start, I might be extremely picky and say that Michelangelo spoke
"Tuscan" (he was from the countriside, though he reahced artistic maturity
in Florence), not Italian, since the variety spoken by educated Florentine
people was officially re-named "Italian" only in the middle of the XVI
century, and the artist was born in 1475. But this would be unfair of me :-)
I obviously did not mean that no-one who was not an intellectual was not
allowed to know or speak Italian. But apart from some areas of Central
Italy, Italian was not a spoken language, except for intellectuals. Changes,
style, vocabulary, etc. where imposed from above, what is now called
"Italian" has been affected much more by artists and poets than by
engineers, bakers, politicians, doctors, etc.
One petty anecdote: in the dialect of the region of Italy where I live
there are six or seven words for "butter", but just one verb for "think". In
Italian, "butter" is simply "burro" (unless you're an expert in the field,
but even then, the other terms are extremely specialistic and uncommon), but
we have "pensare", "meditare", "riflettere", "ponderare", "soppesare", "valu
tare", etc.
Rex F. May
have this color word? In working on Ceqli, I have a hard time
telling from dictionaries whether I'm finding the color word or
the fruit word. It strikes me that it's a very rare color to find in
nature, actually, and therefore likely to be included in 'red' or
'yellow' by most languages. But I don't know.
--
Rex F. May
To order my book, click on:
http://www.kiva.net/~jonabook/gdummy.htm
See my cartoons daily at:
http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/baloo.asp
Paul J Kriha
>On Tue, 7 Aug 2001 00:53:14 +0200,
>Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>> Incidentally, another anecdote. Many people know that "kafe" is the
only
>>Russian word ending in "e" of masculine gender. I was taught it is so
>>because when coffee entered the country, it was "kafej", the final "short
i"
>>clearly made it masculine, but later on it was dropped. Nowadays some
>>uneducated Russians, because of the spelling, use it as a neuter noun.
>
>Actually, 'kofe' as neuter is not a symptom of lack of education, and hasn't
>been for some time. Recently it even entered the (traditionally
conservative,
>prescriptive) dictionaries, where it's usual now to see 'kofe' designated
>as "m. or sr." . Its earlier form was "kofij".
>
>Also, since Russian lacks true vocative case, I suppose a case could be made
>that "Bozhe" is another masculine word ending in "e".
Masculine "bozhe"? Would it not be more likely a neuter?
Declined like "uchilishche"? :-)
Paul JK.
Roman Sotnikov
"Paul J Kriha" <re-move...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote in message
news:9kvssj$1dg...@actrix.co.nz...
Try to say "bozhe ty moyo" (as you could do with "uchilishche") :).
I'm sure you'll end up with "bozhe ty _moy_"<-masc.
Regards,
Roman
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>
>> Can you support that assertion?
>>
>> (Note that I don't consider dropping terms like "chiaroscuro" and "alla
>> prima" in English or German "speaking Italian". If that's "speaking
>> Italian", then I speak Latin every time I open my mouth.)
>
> I would distinguish loan words which remain unaltered in the TL, and
>which are often perceived as foreign words, and loan words which are
>adjusted to the spelling and/or phonetic system of the TL.
> Italian words spelled like in Italian and pronounced (insofar as
>possible) like the original Italian pronunciation are to be considered, in
>my opinion, Italian words used in other languages. In the same way, I call
>many common words we use in Italian (e.g. jogging, provider, gossip, etc.)
>"English words". Other words of English origin, like "bistecca" (from "beef
>steak") obviously do not belong to this category.
That might disqualify one of the examples I gave, since it is sometimes
pronounced <alla pr[aI]ma>. At the very least, it means that, according
to your definition, it is "Italian" for some speakers and "English" for
others.
But this pales next to the discovery that millions of Americans "speak"
Japanese. After all, they say <samurai>, <ninja>, <sushi>, <pokemon> in
as near an approximation of the original pronunciation as they can.
> If you take a look at an art book, you'll find that English passages are
>teeming with cupolas or porticoes,
I thought we were talking about painting!
>that artists love painting frescos and making Pietàs
Some artists. Not the ones I'm interested in. That was my point:
Terms from Italian are common in *some* areas of painting. But you don't
*need* them to discuss painting in English (even less so in Korean!), much
less actually *paint*. So to go from "Italian terms are used to describe
painting according to Renaissance models" to "All painters speak Italian"
seems to me a ludicrous jump.
>(do you use the -s to mark the plural even in a loan word
>which ends in a stressed vowel?),
Yup.
>and if you ever play an instrument, even
>if it is not a "piano" or "cello" (aka "pianoforte" and "violoncello"), a
>"trombone"
You mean a [tr@m'bown]?
>or a "fagotto",
We don't play <fagotti> in English; we play <bassoons>. Pray tell, what
Italian word is that derived from?
>you'll find it hard to read a staff or study
>music theory without frequently coming across "andante", "allegro",
>"appoggiatura", "sordino", "fortissimo" and its counterpart "pianissimo",
>and singers ("sopranos" and "altos" in primis) often deal with "bel canto" -
>not to mention the "opera", which is very often in Italian.
This is all very much beside the point. You said "painters"; now you're
talking about musicians. What gives?
> I cannot see any good reason why these words should not be defined as
>"Italian words". You previously stated that those artists you know "do not
>speak one word of Italian". I personally do not know those people, but I
>seriously doubt that they never use these words, and many more.
"to not speak a word" is an idiom in English. Speaking a language re-
quires a lot more than simply learning a few vocabulary items.
But here's a question: Can you say that these people are "speaking
Italian" if they don't *know* there words are Italian?
>> I do, but this isn't what you said before (and deleted in your reply).
>> Probably as many technical artistic terms entered English from French as
>> from Italian.
>
> Not really. Or rather, the ones which entered English through French can
>be easily recognised, since the French have always modified them more
>clearly than the English have. What is more, I was not referring to them.
I don't understand what you're saying. Not all artistic terms borrowed
from French came originally from Italian. What's Italian for <trompe
l'oeil>?
> Do not forget that during the Renaissance, the age when modern arts were
>codified, the main language of culture in Europe was Italian and all other
>national languages in the continent imported tons of words from the
>boot-shaped peninsula.
Don't forget that we're no longer living in the Renaissance. Many of
these words have since become obsolete and been dropped.
>> Michelangelo was a painter from a family of bankers. At what point did he
>> cease speaking Florentine and pick up Italian? What did he speak to his
>> father and what did his father answer back in?
>
> I'm starting to believe that my why of speaking is hardly compatible
>with yours... Joking aside, you seem to take my metaphoric/symbolic
>statements rather too literally.
It's hard to tell when you're making "metaphoric/symbolic statements" and
when you're simply exaggerating.
[literal answer to my rhetorical question deleted]
Paul J Kriha
No I don't. :-)
The trick is not to think of the original
meaning of the word "Bog".
Imagine you have some form of "vyazanie" (knitting)
the kind known as "bozhe". Then you say "u menya takoye
krasivoye vyazaniye, eto sdelal ja, eto moyo bozhe". :-)
(But Russian is not my first language, so my instinct
could be all horribly wrong).
Roman Sotnikov
> >I'm sure you'll end up with "bozhe ty _moy_"<-masc.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Roman
>
>
> No I don't. :-)
> The trick is not to think of the original
> meaning of the word "Bog".
>
> Imagine you have some form of "vyazanie" (knitting)
> the kind known as "bozhe". Then you say "u menya takoye
> krasivoye vyazaniye, eto sdelal ja, eto moyo bozhe". :-)
>
> (But Russian is not my first language, so my instinct
> could be all horribly wrong).
>
Seen from this point of view, you're absolutely right - "takoe krasivoye
bozhe" feels pretty good :).
Well, my approach to "ending up" with "bozhe ty _moy_" was of course
that of a native speaker of Russian, by which we're just used to hearing
things like
"o, bozhe; bozhe zh ty moy; otche nash; druzhe moy, etc," since childhood.
In any case, tvoyo "mojo bozhe" mne ochen' ponravilos' :)
Ciao aus Berlin,
Roman
Brian M. Scott
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>
>> Can you support that assertion?
>>
>> (Note that I don't consider dropping terms like "chiaroscuro" and "alla
>> prima" in English or German "speaking Italian". If that's "speaking
>> Italian", then I speak Latin every time I open my mouth.)
>
> I would distinguish loan words which remain unaltered in the TL, and
>which are often perceived as foreign words, and loan words which are
>adjusted to the spelling and/or phonetic system of the TL.
> Italian words spelled like in Italian and pronounced (insofar as
>possible) like the original Italian pronunciation are to be considered, in
>my opinion, Italian words used in other languages. In the same way, I call
>many common words we use in Italian (e.g. jogging, provider, gossip, etc.)
>"English words". Other words of English origin, like "bistecca" (from "beef
>steak") obviously do not belong to this category.
> If you take a look at an art book, you'll find that English passages are
>teeming with cupolas or porticoes, that artists love painting frescos and
>making Pietąs (do you use the -s to mark the plural even in a loan word
>which ends in a stressed vowel?),
<Cupola> and <portico> are English words. Now. The English plural of
<pieta> (which often appears without the accent) is indeed <pietas>.
> and if you ever play an instrument, even
>if it is not a "piano" or "cello" (aka "pianoforte" and "violoncello"), a
>"trombone" or a "fagotto",
<Piano>, <cello>, and <trombone> are English words. Now. In English
one doesn't play a <fagotto>; the English name is <bassoon>.
> you'll find it hard to read a staff or study
>music theory without frequently coming across "andante", "allegro",
>"appoggiatura", "sordino", "fortissimo" and its counterpart "pianissimo",
Technical terms, recognized as such. Using them in a musical context
is not speaking Italian.
>and singers ("sopranos" and "altos" in primis) often deal with "bel canto" -
>not to mention the "opera", which is very often in Italian.
<Soprano> and <alto> are English words. Now. One can sing opera
without understanding (and therefore without really speaking) the
language, though it's not the preferred situation.
> I cannot see any good reason why these words should not be defined as
>"Italian words".
Because many of them are part of normal English vocabulary, and the
rest are part of the English vocabulary of a specialized discipline.
Their language of origin is irrelevant.
[...]
>> Probably as many technical artistic terms entered English from French as
>> from Italian.
> Not really. Or rather, the ones which entered English through French can
>be easily recognised, since the French have always modified them more
>clearly than the English have.
Modified from what? I assume that Da was talking about terms that
originated in French, like <surrealism>, <pointilism>, and
<impressionism>. In music/dance I can think at once of <bransle>,
<galliard>, <gigue> (amusingly enough from English <jig(ge)>, itself
perhaps from French <gigue> 'violin'!), and <sarabande>.
> What is more, I was not referring to them.
Ah, well then, of course they must not exist.
[...]
Brian
Anatoly Vorobey
Paul J Kriha <re-move...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>>Actually, 'kofe' as neuter is not a symptom of lack of education, and hasn't
>>been for some time. Recently it even entered the (traditionally
>conservative,
>>prescriptive) dictionaries, where it's usual now to see 'kofe' designated
>>as "m. or sr." . Its earlier form was "kofij".
>>
>>Also, since Russian lacks true vocative case, I suppose a case could be made
>>that "Bozhe" is another masculine word ending in "e".
>
>Masculine "bozhe"? Would it not be more likely a neuter?
>Declined like "uchilishche"? :-)
'Bozhe' alrady has a syntactical gender, and it's masculine. It combines
with masculine adjectives, as in the set phrase "Bozhe moj", for instance.
Regardless of how it declines, this firmly establishes its gender as masculine.
(it doesn't, actually. decline, that is).
Brian M. Scott
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>In article <9ktugf$6faun$3...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>,
>Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
[...]
>>and if you ever play an instrument, even
>>if it is not a "piano" or "cello" (aka "pianoforte" and "violoncello"), a
>>"trombone"
>You mean a [tr@m'bown]?
Nah, he means a [,trA.m'b@wn]! (Never mind the vowels; do you really
have /@/ and no secondary stress on the first syllable?)
[...]
Brian
Nicola Nobili
> Actually, 'kofe' as neuter is not a symptom of lack of education, and
hasn't
> been for some time.
Then my teachers were excessively zealous, I guess. After all, they also
corrected expressions like "v Ukraine", which I can often read in Russian
newspapers. By the way, which gender is more widespread among educated
Russian? I hope it's the masculine one, I would like to be among the
educated :-)
> Also, since Russian lacks true vocative case, I suppose a case could be
made
> that "Bozhe" is another masculine word ending in "e".
Well, this is arguable. Words ending in -e IN THE NOMINATIVE SINGULAR
are neuter, but if we accept your argument, then we might assume that, for
example, "otec" is a masculine ending in "e", since it's prepositive is in
"e".
Nicola Nobili
> > If you take a look at an art book, you'll find that English passages
are
> >teeming with cupolas or porticoes,
>
> I thought we were talking about painting!
Yes, our ways of reasoning must be drastically different. I must admit I
don't like to subdivide culture into isolated fields, especially with
reference to similar activities like painting and scupturing. What is the
dividing line between the two? The answer is not that banal at all. And many
artists were excellent in both activities. Etcetera.
I simply mentioned some words that were relevant to my point. My point
being "arts" in general, I originally mentioned "painters" just because of
the circumstances, I never meant to excude other artists.
> Terms from Italian are common in *some* areas of painting.
It's hard to write a book or essay about painting without using some
words of Italian origin. It's hard to write a book about cooking without
resorting, at least occasionally, to some French terms. It's hard to write
anything about the Internet without an abundant dose of English words. You
may accurately avoid them, but a person who is interested in the subject,
even more so if s/he is a professionist in that field, MUST have a certain
knowledge of the terminology.
> So to go from "Italian terms are used to describe
> painting according to Renaissance models" to "All painters speak Italian"
> seems to me a ludicrous jump.
Indeed, it is. But the jump stems from your imagination, I never ever
mentioned or alluded to anything like that. I used the expression "the
language of painters" with reference to Italian (incidentally, it is no
invention of mine, I've heard it a thousand times, but perhaps it is not
that frequent in your neighborhood), meaning that Italian has been deeply
influence by artists and intellectuals for centuries, since it has become a
"national" language used in daily life in relatively recent times.
Now I find that I said "all painters speak Italian". If these are the
premises, I can't see how the two of us can communicate in a productive way.
> >or a "fagotto",
>
> We don't play <fagotti> in English
WRONG. You do, believe it or not. I clearly remember my music theory
classes when I lived in America. "Fagottos" everywhere: in our textbooks, in
the posters on the wall, in the school orchestra and band, etc. Perhaps you
don't play it (I don't either), but I'm referring to a linguistic element
here.
> This is all very much beside the point. You said "painters"; now you're
> talking about musicians. What gives?
Musicians are "artists", aren't they? I said "painter", which way a
figure of speech: a specific category instead of the more generic one. I
thought it was clear enough. I occasionally have the impression that you're
excessively "scientific" in our interpretations...
> "to not speak a word" is an idiom in English. Speaking a language re-
> quires a lot more than simply learning a few vocabulary items.
I never argued that they "speak" Italian. Actually, I was surprised you
said "they don't speak a word of Italian", therefore I reacted, ironically,
by saying that they speak many more than one, since a large number of
technical terms in their fiels are Italian. Again, I'm afraid the two of us
are destined to be eternally arguing about nothing...
> But here's a question: Can you say that these people are "speaking
> Italian" if they don't *know* there words are Italian?
I doubt a specialist doesn't know what country(ies) were/are the
protagonists in his/her field. I have never met an artist of art history
teacher who didn't have a passion for Italy (once I even met some art
teachers in Russia and Belarus who knew many Italian artworks and Italian
technical terms I was blissfully unaware of). Denying this would not be
realistic.
> I don't understand what you're saying. Not all artistic terms borrowed
> from French came originally from Italian.
Of course. What I was saying is that the Italian artistic terms which
entered the English language through French can be distinguished from the
ones which entered English directly.
> Don't forget that we're no longer living in the Renaissance. Many of
> these words have since become obsolete and been dropped.
But most haven't.
> It's hard to tell when you're making "metaphoric/symbolic statements" and
> when you're simply exaggerating.
Alas, there's the rub! I hope my statements are a little clearer now.
Most of what you attribute to me was absolutely absent in my intentions.
Nicola Nobili
> <Cupola> and <portico> are English words. Now.
But do you (plural) consider them "English" or do you still sense their
foreign origin? I remember I found several English native speakers who could
understand "dome" but not "cupola", "arcade" but not "portico". I noticed
that in every language a number of commonly used words of foreign origin are
still "foreign" to the average speaker. (And often mispelled). I daily use
several English words in Italian, but my interlocutors immediately recognise
them as English words, regardless of their pronunciation or use.
> one doesn't play a <fagotto>; the English name is <bassoon>.
No, "fagotto" is used in English as well. My American music theory
teacher, who was not a linguist or a polyglot, used it a hundred times
during that course. And I found it in books and posters quite often. Perhaps
"bassoon" is more common in daily life, but "fagotto" does exist and
definitely can be used.
> Technical terms, recognized as such. Using them in a musical context
> is not speaking Italian.
Once again, I never meant to say that artists and musicians everywhere
*speak* Italian. I ironically objected to my interlocutor's statement (which
clearly misunderstood my point) according to which they don't *speak a
word*. I said that they certainly speak *many words*, if not the language. I
believed my ironic remark was clear, perhaps it was an eccess of optimism on
my part.
> One can sing opera
> without understanding (and therefore without really speaking) the
> language, though it's not the preferred situation.
In theory. But the greatest singers always speak Italian, at least to a
certain extent. I often listen to their interviews on tv. I heard Japanese,
English, American, etc. singers who started studying Italian when they
decided to become professional artists.
> > What is more, I was not referring to them.
>
> Ah, well then, of course they must not exist.
They're irrelevant to the present situation. I said that there are many
Italian words in English, referring to the arts (undeniably). I did not care
at all about French words or words which were mediated through French. Once
again, I'm afraid my message has been deeply misunderstood.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
'S far's I c'n tell, yeppers. I've tried your pronunciation a few times,
and it just feels horribly affected to me.
Anyone ever toldja ya tawk funny?
(For the record, my stressed diphthong there is more centralised than I
showed it, but it's not fully mid-central and I didn't want to figure out
what kind of ad-hoc notation I'd need to describe it.)
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>
>> > If you take a look at an art book, you'll find that English passages
>are
>> >teeming with cupolas or porticoes,
>>
>> I thought we were talking about painting!
>
> Yes, our ways of reasoning must be drastically different. I must admit I
>don't like to subdivide culture into isolated fields, especially with
>reference to similar activities like painting and scupturing. What is the
>dividing line between the two? The answer is not that banal at all. And many
>artists were excellent in both activities. Etcetera.
But <cupola> and <portico> are architectural terms, not sculptural...
Oh, it doesn't really matter.
> I simply mentioned some words that were relevant to my point. My point
>being "arts" in general, I originally mentioned "painters" just because of
>the circumstances, I never meant to excude other artists.
I didn't recognise this as an instance of synecdoche. If I mean "artists
in general", I say "artists in general", not "scrimshoner". I guess that
makes me "excessively literal".
[snip]
>> So to go from "Italian terms are used to describe
>> painting according to Renaissance models" to "All painters speak Italian"
>> seems to me a ludicrous jump.
>
> Indeed, it is. But the jump stems from your imagination, I never ever
>mentioned or alluded to anything like that. I used the expression "the
>language of painters" with reference to Italian (incidentally, it is no
>invention of mine, I've heard it a thousand times, but perhaps it is not
>that frequent in your neighborhood), meaning that Italian has been deeply
>influence by artists and intellectuals for centuries, since it has become a
>"national" language used in daily life in relatively recent times.
> Now I find that I said "all painters speak Italian". If these are the
>premises, I can't see how the two of us can communicate in a productive way.
To me, "the language of painters" means "the language which painters use",
much as English might be described as "the language of air traffic con-
trollers". But, I find that, to you, this means "the language which has
historically been deeply influenced by artists". I agree, I don't think
productive communication is possible under these conditions.
>> >or a "fagotto",
>>
>> We don't play <fagotti> in English
>
> WRONG. You do, believe it or not. I clearly remember my music theory
>classes when I lived in America. "Fagottos" everywhere: in our textbooks, in
>the posters on the wall, in the school orchestra and band, etc. Perhaps you
>don't play it (I don't either), but I'm referring to a linguistic element
>here.
I stand corrected.
>> This is all very much beside the point. You said "painters"; now you're
>> talking about musicians. What gives?
>
> Musicians are "artists", aren't they? I said "painter", which way a
>figure of speech: a specific category instead of the more generic one. I
>thought it was clear enough. I occasionally have the impression that you're
>excessively "scientific" in our interpretations...
[see above]
>> "to not speak a word" is an idiom in English. Speaking a language re-
>> quires a lot more than simply learning a few vocabulary items.
>
> I never argued that they "speak" Italian. Actually, I was surprised you
>said "they don't speak a word of Italian", therefore I reacted, ironically,
>by saying that they speak many more than one, since a large number of
>technical terms in their fiels are Italian. Again, I'm afraid the two of us
>are destined to be eternally arguing about nothing...
If you insist on misunderstanding the commonly accepted meaning of English
idioms, then, yes. "To speak a language" means "to have the skill of con-
versing in a certain language". "not to speak a word of a language" is
simply an emphatic way of saying that someone lacks this skill.
>> But here's a question: Can you say that these people are "speaking
>> Italian" if they don't *know* there words are Italian?
>
> I doubt a specialist doesn't know what country(ies) were/are the
>protagonists in his/her field.
That's not the same thing. I've known highly-educated people who couldn't
distinguish French from German by sight. Why should they be able to pick
out words of Italian origin in English?
>I have never met an artist of art history
>teacher who didn't have a passion for Italy (once I even met some art
>teachers in Russia and Belarus who knew many Italian artworks and Italian
>technical terms I was blissfully unaware of). Denying this would not be
>realistic.
Denying what? That your sample of artists and art history teachers is
highly selective?
One of my college roommates was an art history major. His area of concen-
tration was Suprematism, though he had a side-interest in comic art, par-
ticularly Japanese. He could have cared less about Italy, Italian art,
and artists (except Milo Manara).
My art history professor studied Dada. He could have cared less about
Italian artists, with the exception of the Futurists. (I don't know how
he felt about Italy; it never came up.)
My boyfriend is a fan of the arts. His favourite gallery in Chicago
stocks only the work of Japanese and Korean painters and printmakers.
The two men who run it are highly knowledgeable and passionate about art.
Again, they could care less about Italian art and artists. My boyfriend
would much rather visit Japan again than anyplace in Europe.
Not once when discussing painting with any of the above did I hear them
make use of an Italian technical term. I don't suppose they were con-
sciously avoiding such terminology; it simply wasn't relevant to the tech-
niques and concepts under discussion.
>> I don't understand what you're saying. Not all artistic terms borrowed
>> from French came originally from Italian.
>
> Of course. What I was saying is that the Italian artistic terms which
>entered the English language through French can be distinguished from the
>ones which entered English directly.
How is that relevant to my point? I was demonstrating that the French had
at least as much influence on the artistic vocabulary of English as Ital-
ian. Your native language just isn't as ubiquitous as you seem to think
it is.
>> Don't forget that we're no longer living in the Renaissance. Many of
>> these words have since become obsolete and been dropped.
>
> But most haven't.
I wouldn't care to make a judgement on that until I saw a statistical ana-
lysis. It surprises me sometimes when browsing the OED to see how many
technical terms I come across that were borrowed from a foreign language,
used for a few decades, and then discarded.
>> It's hard to tell when you're making "metaphoric/symbolic statements" and
>> when you're simply exaggerating.
>
> Alas, there's the rub! I hope my statements are a little clearer now.
>Most of what you attribute to me was absolutely absent in my intentions.
I still think you're seeing Italian influence when it really isn't there.
Brian M. Scott
Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>In article <3b72c0ae....@enews.newsguy.com>,
>Brian M. Scott <sc...@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:
>>On Thu, 09 Aug 2001 15:16:39 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
>>Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <9ktugf$6faun$3...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>,
>>>Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>and if you ever play an instrument, even
>>>>if it is not a "piano" or "cello" (aka "pianoforte" and "violoncello"), a
>>>>"trombone"
>>
>>>You mean a [tr@m'bown]?
>>
>>Nah, he means a [,trA.m'b@wn]! (Never mind the vowels; do you really
>>have /@/ and no secondary stress on the first syllable?)
>
>'S far's I c'n tell, yeppers. I've tried your pronunciation a few times,
>and it just feels horribly affected to me.
Interesting; if I've heard it, I've never noticed that pronunciation.
I'll have to keep my ears open.
>Anyone ever toldja ya tawk funny?
I might could call to mind some such aspersion. But my brother, who
played one of the beasties in school, doesn't, and I'm pretty sure
that he has secondary stress on the first syllable as well.
[...]
Brian
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Brian M. Scott <sc...@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:24:28 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
>Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>
>>In article <3b72c0ae....@enews.newsguy.com>,
>>Brian M. Scott <sc...@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 09 Aug 2001 15:16:39 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
>>>Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <9ktugf$6faun$3...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>,
>>>>Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>>>and if you ever play an instrument, even
>>>>>if it is not a "piano" or "cello" (aka "pianoforte" and "violoncello"), a
>>>>>"trombone"
>>>
>>>>You mean a [tr@m'bown]?
>>>
>>>Nah, he means a [,trA.m'b@wn]! (Never mind the vowels; do you really
>>>have /@/ and no secondary stress on the first syllable?)
>>
>>'S far's I c'n tell, yeppers. I've tried your pronunciation a few times,
>>and it just feels horribly affected to me.
>
>Interesting; if I've heard it, I've never noticed that pronunciation.
>I'll have to keep my ears open.
As will I. The only memory I can summon currently of hearing the word
pronounced is from watching _The Music Man_ a few weeks ago--and that
hardly counts, since it's in song.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Speaking of "orange," does anybody know how many languages
> have this color word? In working on Ceqli, I have a hard time
> telling from dictionaries whether I'm finding the color word or
> the fruit word. It strikes me that it's a very rare color to find in
> nature, actually, and therefore likely to be included in 'red' or
> 'yellow' by most languages. But I don't know.
It's the last one on the list of Kay & Berlin's Basic Color Terms, and
it doesn't seem to have existed in English before we got the fruit and
its name through Spanish. (Heraldry and such uses the "gold" words to
name the color.)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Peter T. Daniels
> >>>You mean a [tr@m'bown]?
> >>
> >>Nah, he means a [,trA.m'b@wn]! (Never mind the vowels; do you really
> >>have /@/ and no secondary stress on the first syllable?)
> >
> >'S far's I c'n tell, yeppers. I've tried your pronunciation a few times,
> >and it just feels horribly affected to me.
>
> Interesting; if I've heard it, I've never noticed that pronunciation.
> I'll have to keep my ears open.
>
> >Anyone ever toldja ya tawk funny?
>
> I might could call to mind some such aspersion. But my brother, who
> played one of the beasties in school, doesn't, and I'm pretty sure
> that he has secondary stress on the first syllable as well.
Must be one a them St. Louis anomalies. But he gave in way too easy on
the claim that "fagotto" appears in English.
Brian M. Scott
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott
>
>> <Cupola> and <portico> are English words. Now.
>
> But do you (plural) consider them "English" or do you still sense their
>foreign origin?
I'm aware of their foreign origin and consider them English.
> I remember I found several English native speakers who could
>understand "dome" but not "cupola", "arcade" but not "portico".
This doesn't surprise me: <dome> and <arcade> are more common than
<cupola> and <portico>. But <portico> has been in the language longer
than <arcade>. (I hope that you don't think that they're synonymous
in English, though.)
> I noticed
>that in every language a number of commonly used words of foreign origin are
>still "foreign" to the average speaker. (And often mispelled).
Indeed. However, these words are not of that type.
>> one doesn't play a <fagotto>; the English name is <bassoon>.
> No, "fagotto" is used in English as well.
Don't tell me 'No'; I know rather more about it than you do.
<Fagotto> is used very rarely. It is a specialist term, used by
people professionally involved in music and music history. The
normal, everyday word, and the *only* word known to most people is
<bassoon>.
[...]
>> One can sing opera
>> without understanding (and therefore without really speaking) the
>> language, though it's not the preferred situation.
> In theory. But the greatest singers always speak Italian, at least to a
>certain extent. I often listen to their interviews on tv. I heard Japanese,
>English, American, etc. singers who started studying Italian when they
>decided to become professional artists.
They also customarily speak (to more or less the same degree) French
and German; it's part of the training.
[...]
Brian
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>> >>>You mean a [tr@m'bown]?
>> >>
>> >>Nah, he means a [,trA.m'b@wn]! (Never mind the vowels; do you really
>> >>have /@/ and no secondary stress on the first syllable?)
>> >
>> >'S far's I c'n tell, yeppers. I've tried your pronunciation a few times,
>> >and it just feels horribly affected to me.
>>
>> Interesting; if I've heard it, I've never noticed that pronunciation.
>> I'll have to keep my ears open.
>>
>> >Anyone ever toldja ya tawk funny?
>>
>> I might could call to mind some such aspersion. But my brother, who
>> played one of the beasties in school, doesn't, and I'm pretty sure
>> that he has secondary stress on the first syllable as well.
>
>Must be one a them St. Louis anomalies.
It seems that every time you open your mouth, Peter, you betray how small
your world is.
>But he gave in way too easy on the claim that "fagotto" appears in
>English.
It is in the OED, after all. Two citations from glossaries of foreign
musical terms, one published in 1724, one in 1876. And if Mr Nobili
claims to have seen it used in textbooks, who am I to argue? I wasn't the
one who moved the goalposts to include the field of music anyway.
Brian M. Scott
No, heraldry simply didn't use the color. 'Or' (and in late medieval
English blazon 'gold(e)') refers to a much yellower tincture. One
occasionally finds 'tawny', meaning a tawny orange, in livery colors,
but the tincture was rarely if ever used in armory until the 20th
century. In modern blazon the term is <tenné>.
Brian
Wolf Kirchmeir
[quoting Peter Daniels...: ..snip....]
>>But he gave in way too easy on the claim that "fagotto" appears in
>>English.
>
>It is in the OED, after all. Two citations from glossaries of foreign
>musical terms, one published in 1724, one in 1876. And if Mr Nobili
>claims to have seen it used in textbooks, who am I to argue? I wasn't the
>one who moved the goalposts to include the field of music anyway.
IMO, if people use a word it belongs to their language, whether or not it
retains spelling and/or pronunciation of the language from which it was
borrowed (stolen, maybe?)
This notion that words "belong" to the language in which they originated is
cultural chauvinism (to use a polite phrase.) The Nazis took the converse
view: that German ought to be purged of anything not composed of Germanic
roots. A few of their coinages persisted for a while, eg Kraftwagen for car,
but pretty well all of them are dead in current German. I don't think that's
an irrelevant observation, because insistence on cultural purity is twin to
insistence on racial purity. Whether you do by claiming words in another
langauge as yours, or do it by expunging words of foreign origin from yours
don't make no difference. It's all the same us'n be better'n your'n kinda
crap.
I'm going to use whatever words suit my purposes, and if you want to say I'm
using words that somehow belong to you, I'll say, So what? When I use them,
they're my words, and there's an end on't.
Best Wishes,
Wolf Kirchmeir
Blind River, Ontario
..................................................................
You can see a lot by just looking.
(Yogi Berrs, Phil. Em.)
..................................................................
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> To me, "the language of painters" means "the language which painters use",
> much as English might be described as "the language of air traffic con-
> trollers".
Evidently, you had never heard that expression, which is perfectly
common to me. I apologise for being ambiguous, but my intention was
radically different from what you thought. I hope you got the concept
by now.
> But, I find that, to you, this means "the language which has
> historically been deeply influenced by artists".
> If you insist on misunderstanding the commonly accepted meaning of English
> idioms, then, yes. "To speak a language" means
I meant to be ironic. I'll try to explain it once more:
1- I said "the language of artists"
2- You misunderstood what I meant by that (perhaps I was ambiguous, I
apologise)
3- You said "they don't speak ONE word" (I knew this expression, of
course)
4- I ironically replied to your misunderstanding by saying that they
speak "many words" (can you see the pun? ONE vs MANY?)
That's all I meant.
> One of my college roommates was an art history major. His area of concen-
> tration was Suprematism, though he had a side-interest in comic art, par-
> ticularly Japanese. He could have cared less about Italy, Italian art,
> and artists (except Milo Manara).
I could open a long digression here expressing how terribly sad and
distressing it is to notice how in modern times there is a tendency to
concentrate on tiny aspects of a subject while systematically ignoring
the rest of it, and I might add that a specialist in art should know
"art" tout court, a specialist in history should know "history" and
not just a certain period in history, etc.
But this would take me off topic...
> The two men who run it are highly knowledgeable and passionate about art.
> Again, they could care less about Italian art and artists.
If that's their personal taste, there is nothing wrong with that. If
they have never studied or cared about Italian (of French, or
Dutch...) artists, it's called "ignorance", no matter how
knowledgeable and passionate they are.
> Not once when discussing painting with any of the above did I hear them
> make use of an Italian technical term. I don't suppose they were con-
> sciously avoiding such terminology; it simply wasn't relevant to the tech-
> niques and concepts under discussion.
Then they were dealing with an extremely restricted number of
techniques and concepts. If you describe the various parts of a
Japanese temple, sword, painting, you may not use any such terms.
Otherwise, it gets extremely hard to do so.
> How is that relevant to my point? I was demonstrating that the French had
> at least as much influence on the artistic vocabulary of English as Ital-
> ian.
Nope. Carry out a statistic research work if you don't believe me.
> Your native language just isn't as ubiquitous as you seem to think
> it is.
I think it is extremely important in just some fields, like art. It is
totally irrelevant in most fields. Indeed, Italian experts in
high-tech, for instance, are unable to open their mouths without
uttering an impressive amount of English words. I do not hesitate to
define English as the "most important" language in the Internet. I do
not hesitate to define French as the "most important" language in
fashion. I can't see why there is so much resistance when I stress the
importance Italian has always had in artistic terminology.
> I still think you're seeing Italian influence when it really isn't there.
I'm afraid this unpleasant series of messages originated from a silly
misunderstanding.
Nicola
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> retains spelling and/or pronunciation of the language from which it was
> borrowed (stolen, maybe?)
The matter is more complex than that, I believe. Some words are only
occasionally borrowed, perhaps just to show off one's erudition. In
this case, I would consider it a clearly recognisable "foreign
element".
> The Nazis took the converse
> view: that German ought to be purged of anything not composed of Germanic
> roots.
Mussolini did something similar, when he obliged the nation to drop
"bar" for "mescita" (which sounds ridiculous nowadays) or "film" for
"pellicola". Even some Italian towns by the borders had to change
their names.
> I'm going to use whatever words suit my purposes, and if you want to say I'm
> using words that somehow belong to you, I'll say, So what?
I agree. I think everyone should be free to use whatever words s/he
likes. But there is a moment when words have just been imported into a
language and they still "sound" foreing. As time goes by, people may
forget about it, though.
Bye,
Nicola
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> <cupola> and <portico>. But <portico> has been in the language longer
> than <arcade>. (I hope that you don't think that they're synonymous
> in English, though.)
Unfortunately, many people seem to use them as synonyms. I read
"arcade" in quite a few tourist books in English, when they were
clearly referring to "porticoes".
> > No, "fagotto" is used in English as well.
>
> Don't tell me 'No'; I know rather more about it than you do.
I said it is still used. What you're saying confirms my statement. I
simply mentioned "fagotto" in my message, someone else said that
"fagotto" is not used in English and I replied by denying this. I
never spoke about the frequency. I have the impression that more than
one person here is sticking words into my mouth...
Nicola
Richard Herring
It's in the single-volume Chambers, too, with no indication that it's
obsolete or specialist, so someone must use it.
Personally I've never seen or heard it used, except by my old
music teacher when he was being facetious.
--
Richard Herring | <richard...@baesystems.com>
Brian M. Scott
dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata) wrote:
>sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
[...]
>> > No, "fagotto" is used in English as well.
>> Don't tell me 'No'; I know rather more about it than you do.
>I said it is still used. What you're saying confirms my statement. I
>simply mentioned "fagotto" in my message, someone else said that
>"fagotto" is not used in English and I replied by denying this.
Keep your conversations straight. You were responding to me, and what
I told you is that one doesn't play a <fagotto>, the English name
being <bassoon>. This is substantially true, as you may discover by
asking the members of any high school band.
> I never spoke about the frequency.
You implicitly classed it with <piano>, <cello>, and <trombone>.
These are all the common English names of the instruments in question;
<fagotto> is not the common English name of the bassoon and does not
belong with the other three words.
> I have the impression that more than
>one person here is sticking words into my mouth...
I interpret what you write according to normal conversational
expectations. Apparently you are unable to meet them. (But you might
find more people willing to make allowances if you toned down that
ridiculous linguistic chauvinism of yours.)
BMS
Brian M. Scott
dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata) wrote:
[...]
>I could open a long digression here expressing how terribly sad and
>distressing it is to notice how in modern times there is a tendency to
>concentrate on tiny aspects of a subject while systematically ignoring
>the rest of it, and I might add that a specialist in art should know
>"art" tout court, a specialist in history should know "history" and
>not just a certain period in history, etc.
There is no such thing as a specialist in history. The field is much
too big for that.
[...]
>> Not once when discussing painting with any of the above did I hear them
>> make use of an Italian technical term. I don't suppose they were con-
>> sciously avoiding such terminology; it simply wasn't relevant to the tech-
>> niques and concepts under discussion.
>Then they were dealing with an extremely restricted number of
>techniques and concepts.
No doubt Japanese and Korean printmakers could say the same about
someone who dealt only with European techniques and terminology.
[...]
>> How is that relevant to my point? I was demonstrating that the French had
>> at least as much influence on the artistic vocabulary of English as Ital-
>> ian.
>Nope. Carry out a statistic research work if you don't believe me.
I take it that you have not yourself done so. It would appear that
your opinion rests on a rather shaky foundation.
[...]
Brian M. Scott
Coby (Jacob) Lubliner
>dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata) wrote:
>
>>sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
>
>[...]
>
>>> > No, "fagotto" is used in English as well.
>
>>> Don't tell me 'No'; I know rather more about it than you do.
>
>>I said it is still used. What you're saying confirms my statement. I
>>simply mentioned "fagotto" in my message, someone else said that
>>"fagotto" is not used in English and I replied by denying this.
>
>Keep your conversations straight. You were responding to me, and what
>I told you is that one doesn't play a <fagotto>, the English name
>being <bassoon>. This is substantially true, as you may discover by
>asking the members of any high school band.
>
>> I never spoke about the frequency.
>
>You implicitly classed it with <piano>, <cello>, and <trombone>.
>These are all the common English names of the instruments in question;
><fagotto> is not the common English name of the bassoon and does not
>belong with the other three words.
I wonder how one would classify Italian words used in English with a
different meaning from their Italian one: piccolo (It. flautino), prosciutto
(prosciutto crudo), latte (caffelatte)...
Coby
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Wolf Kirchmeir <wwol...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>On Thu, 09 Aug 2001 22:19:12 GMT, D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote:
>
>[quoting Peter Daniels...: ..snip....]
>>>But he gave in way too easy on the claim that "fagotto" appears in
>>>English.
>>
>>It is in the OED, after all. Two citations from glossaries of foreign
>>musical terms, one published in 1724, one in 1876. And if Mr Nobili
>>claims to have seen it used in textbooks, who am I to argue? I wasn't the
>>one who moved the goalposts to include the field of music anyway.
>
>IMO, if people use a word it belongs to their language, whether or not it
>retains spelling and/or pronunciation of the language from which it was
>borrowed (stolen, maybe?)
No one used the loaded word "belongs"; Peter said "appears" and I said
"used". So you've constructed a straw man here and then blasted away at
it half-cocked.
>This notion that words "belong" to the language in which they originated is
>cultural chauvinism (to use a polite phrase.) The Nazis took the converse
>view: that German ought to be purged of anything not composed of Germanic
>roots. A few of their coinages persisted for a while, eg Kraftwagen for car,
>but pretty well all of them are dead in current German. I don't think that's
>an irrelevant observation,
What about the observation that a large number of people who were/are not
Nazis have been linguistic purists? Is that an irrelevant observation?
>because insistence on cultural purity is twin to
>insistence on racial purity. Whether you do by claiming words in another
>langauge as yours, or do it by expunging words of foreign origin from yours
>don't make no difference. It's all the same us'n be better'n your'n kinda
>crap.
>
>I'm going to use whatever words suit my purposes, and if you want to say I'm
>using words that somehow belong to you, I'll say, So what? When I use them,
>they're my words, and there's an end on't.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
This is one reason why it find it ridiculous to say that using terms de-
rived from Italian demonstrates any knowledge of Italian as a linguistic
system. Someone who orders a "latte" in an Italian caffe is in for a sur-
prising relevation about the weakness of Italian coffee. And what is
someone who knows what a "fresco" is to make of "pescato fresco"? Will
they think the menu is telling them that the entrees are as pretty as a
picture?
Mark Rosenfelder
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>1- I said "the language of artists"
>2- You misunderstood what I meant by that (perhaps I was ambiguous, I
>apologise)
More than ambiguous. The original quote was:
>In Italian, for instance (the language of
>painters, among other things), words for colours are abundant.
An English reader will take this as equivalent to claims that "French is
the language of diplomacy", or "English is the language of business".
There is a healthy serving of hyperbole in these expressions, but even
given that, Daniel is not misunderstanding but disagreeing with the
idea that Italian is or should be widely known among painters.
In a later message you explain that you really meant that "Italian has
been deeply influenced by artists and intellectuals [as opposed to common
people] for centuries". Perhaps this is the common understanding of
"the langauge of painters" in Italian, but you can hardly expect others,
with very different linguistic histories, to find this meaning, especially
in a context where the subject is not the history of Italian, but colors.
A parallel expression would be that Hebrew is "the language of theologians"
(because for centuries it was used by theologians rather than for ordinary
life), or that Classical Chinese is "the language of bureaucrats".
But I don't think people would be "silly" for not catching this meaning.
>3- You said "they don't speak ONE word" (I knew this expression, of
>course)
>4- I ironically replied to your misunderstanding by saying that they
>speak "many words" (can you see the pun? ONE vs MANY?)
This sounds like the sort of everyday conversations that go like this:
A: I don't speak a word of Greek.
B: Sure you do, you know 'gyros', and 'astronaut', and 'democracy', and...
Since B is being a pedant, it's appropriate to be pedantic back,
and point out that he's using a weak pun to change the subject.
A didn't mean that he never used words of Greek origin.
>> One of my college roommates was an art history major. His area of concen-
>> tration was Suprematism, though he had a side-interest in comic art, par-
>> ticularly Japanese. He could have cared less about Italy, Italian art,
>> and artists (except Milo Manara).
>
>I could open a long digression here expressing how terribly sad and
>distressing it is to notice how in modern times there is a tendency to
>concentrate on tiny aspects of a subject while systematically ignoring
>the rest of it, and I might add that a specialist in art should know
>"art" tout court, a specialist in history should know "history" and
>not just a certain period in history, etc.
Heavens. When, pray tell, was the golden age in which anyone at all
knew "'art' tout court", or "history"? Do you really mean that people
were equally knowledgeable about Italian, French, Arabic, Chinese,
Ghanaian, Indian, Javanese, Aztec, and Inca art? I rather suspect
that you're thinking of a time when a specialization in certain styles
of European art was mistaken for knowledge of art in general.
Nicola Nobili
I deliberately omitted any reference to the "misunderstanding", since I
think it is useless to keep on arguing about nothing.
> Heavens. When, pray tell, was the golden age in which anyone at all
> knew "'art' tout court", or "history"?
I have studied "art" and "history" as a whole in school. Then one may
focus on one or more particular fields, but those who just learn by heart a
book section do not know that subject, really. I once met a teacher of
Medieval history who knew every date and character from the fall of the
Western Roman Empire to 1492, but he hardly knew the French Revolution or
the Second World War. This is not culture, it is a disturbing kind of
ignorance made of meaningless memorised data.
> I rather suspect
> that you're thinking of a time when a specialization in certain styles
> of European art was mistaken for knowledge of art in general.
If you consider that the vast majority of art works are in Europe (Italy
alone owns about 70% of the world total), I seriously doubt that anyone can
be an art expert without knowing European art. Of course there are other
styles and countries, which deserve respect and which may have produced
masterpieces (I said "may" because I'm not sure all of them actually have),
but in the last few thousand years Europe has definitely been the main
reference point for artists and arts.
Nicola Nobili
> I wonder how one would classify Italian words used in English with a
> different meaning from their Italian one: piccolo (It. flautino),
prosciutto
> (prosciutto crudo), latte (caffelatte)...
Incidentally, "caffellatte" should be spelled with double "l" (though
someone spell it with a single one).
Words are polysemic in nature. Loan words may carry some of their
meanings into another language, they rarely carry all of them. They still
are loan words, aren't they? I didn't mean to get into details and propose a
taxonomy.
Nicola Nobili
> This is one reason why it find it ridiculous to say that using terms de-
> rived from Italian demonstrates any knowledge of Italian as a linguistic
> system.
I could not agree more. Indeed, I never mentioned or stated anything
like that, I never spoke of a "linguistic system". If I expressed myself
improperly, I apologise once more, but I cannot see the point of repeating
the same invented accusation over and over.
Nicola Nobili
> Keep your conversations straight. You were responding to me, and what
> I told you is that one doesn't play a <fagotto>, the English name
> being <bassoon>.
I still can't see how one can feel like quarrelling about such a stupid
issue. We said the same thing, then, didn't we? If a fagotto and a bassoon
are the same thing, how can you play the latter without automatically
playing the former?
> > I never spoke about the frequency.
>
> You implicitly classed it with <piano>, <cello>, and <trombone>.
And about a dozen more randomly chosen words which you conveniently
omitted.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
slide.
In article <9l18o0$6uhmi$3...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>,
Nicola Nobili <nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Mark Rosenfelder
[snip]
>> I rather suspect
>> that you're thinking of a time when a specialization in certain styles
>> of European art was mistaken for knowledge of art in general.
>
> If you consider that the vast majority of art works are in Europe (Italy
>alone owns about 70% of the world total),
Where on *earth* did you get such a figure? (The Italian tourist bureau?)
How are you defining "art work" such that a country of 60 million people
on less than 1% of the world's land area could have more than the other *6
billion* people inhabiting the rest of the world?
>I seriously doubt that anyone can
>be an art expert without knowing European art. Of course there are other
>styles and countries, which deserve respect and which may have produced
>masterpieces (I said "may" because I'm not sure all of them actually have),
>but in the last few thousand years Europe has definitely been the main
>reference point for artists and arts.
The *last few thousand years*? Ever hear of a place called "China"? You
know, the one that was producing magnificent bronzes when the forerunners
of the Italians were literally living in huts? The one that led the world
in painting at a time when Italy was struggling to regain the legacy of
the Romans? It's one of the many countries in a continent called "Asia"
whose culture deserves a little more than your condescending "respect".
I really can't see how, if Mr Kirchmeir is handing out lectures about
cultural chauvinism, he managed to miss you.
Brian M. Scott
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Mark Rosenfelder
[...]
>> Heavens. When, pray tell, was the golden age in which anyone at all
>> knew "'art' tout court", or "history"?
> I have studied "art" and "history" as a whole in school.
But while this may have given you a decent general knowledge of both
subjects, it did not make you a specialist in either. Moreover, I'd
be a bit surprised if you studied all of human history at the same
level of detail. Can you tell me anything about the kingdoms of
Paekche and Silla? The Chimú empire? The monastic university at
Nalanda ca.600 CE?
It's clear from your later comments that you didn't study all of art
at a single level of detail. Do you know anything about Islamic and
oriental calligraphic traditions? Mayan artistic conventions?
> Then one may
>focus on one or more particular fields, but those who just learn by heart a
>book section do not know that subject, really. I once met a teacher of
>Medieval history who knew every date and character from the fall of the
>Western Roman Empire to 1492, but he hardly knew the French Revolution or
>the Second World War. This is not culture, it is a disturbing kind of
>ignorance made of meaningless memorised data.
You seem to neglect the possibility that the data were merely the
factual basis for a fairly detailed understanding of western European
history in the period 500-1500. I find it quite conceivable that his
command of the data was the only part of his understanding that you
were capable of recognizing.
>> I rather suspect
>> that you're thinking of a time when a specialization in certain styles
>> of European art was mistaken for knowledge of art in general.
> If you consider that the vast majority of art works are in Europe (Italy
>alone owns about 70% of the world total),
I doubt this very much. I strongly suspect that it is true only by
some very narrow definition of art work.
> I seriously doubt that anyone can
>be an art expert without knowing European art. Of course there are other
>styles and countries, which deserve respect and which may have produced
>masterpieces (I said "may" because I'm not sure all of them actually have),
>but in the last few thousand years Europe has definitely been the main
>reference point for artists and arts.
Don't be silly. For most of the last few thousand years Europe was
irrelevant to the majority of the world's artists, if they even knew
that it existed. Most of them were in Asia, Africa, and the Americas.
Brian M. Scott
Brian M. Scott
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott
>> Keep your conversations straight. You were responding to me, and what
>> I told you is that one doesn't play a <fagotto>, the English name
>> being <bassoon>.
> I still can't see how one can feel like quarrelling about such a stupid
>issue. We said the same thing, then, didn't we?
No.
> If a fagotto and a bassoon
>are the same thing, how can you play the latter without automatically
>playing the former?
The subject under discussion is the words, not the instrument. I
can't get into an airplane without also getting into a Flugzeug, but
<Flugzeug> is not by any stretch of the imagination an English word,
obscure or otherwise. Thus, in English one doesn't get into a
Flugzeug, one gets into an airplane. Similarly, in normal, everyday
English one does not play the fagotto, but rather the bassoon. The
two terms refer to the same instrument, but they are not in practice
interchangeable in most discourse contexts.
>> > I never spoke about the frequency.
>> You implicitly classed it with <piano>, <cello>, and <trombone>.
> And about a dozen more randomly chosen words which you conveniently
>omitted.
No, you can't get off the hook that way. The four musical instruments
are a clearly defined group within your larger collection. Even if
this were not the case, names of common instruments are not technical
terms specific to the field of music.
BMS
Brian M. Scott
(Coby (Jacob) Lubliner) wrote:
[...]
>I wonder how one would classify Italian words used in English with a
>different meaning from their Italian one: piccolo (It. flautino), prosciutto
>(prosciutto crudo), latte (caffelatte)...
Good question. For what it's worth, <piccolo> for the instrument
seems to me to be fully naturalized, but <prosciutto> and <latte>
still feel foreign.
Brian
Wolf Kirchmeir
>What about the observation that a large number of people who were/are not
>Nazis have been linguistic purists? Is that an irrelevant observation?
H'm.
IMO the desire for linguistic purity arises from false premises and
assumptions about langauge and people. It is close cousin to the desire for
other purities (eg, the Good Old Days of Family Values) and sooner or later
one smells the odour of one kind of fascism or another.
The desire to slow down language change so as to prevent ambiguities and
misunderstanding is a less problematic one IMO, but in the long run as
pointless as the desire for purity. People just gonna talk the way they
wanna.
Wolf Kirchmeir
>I really can't see how, if Mr Kirchmeir is handing out lectures about
>cultural chauvinism, he managed to miss you.
I sampled this thread, and di miss the choice bits you quote.
Seems to me that Ms Nicola fancies herself educated because she has a high
school diploma, or whatever the equivalent is in Italy (see, I'm 'fessing up
to ignorance.)
Mike Wright
>
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 19:18:34 GMT, D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote:
>
> >I really can't see how, if Mr Kirchmeir is handing out lectures about
> >cultural chauvinism, he managed to miss you.
>
> I sampled this thread, and di miss the choice bits you quote.
>
> Seems to me that Ms Nicola fancies herself
Ho, ho! Missed some more choice bits.
> educated because she has a high
> school diploma, or whatever the equivalent is in Italy (see, I'm 'fessing up
> to ignorance.)
--
Mike Wright
http://www.CoastalFog.net
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Rob Bannister
What's 'gules' then? I thought that was a reddish gold.
-- Rob Bannister
Perth, Western Australia.
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
[...]
>What's 'gules' then? I thought that was a reddish gold.
No, it's simply red, preferably a good, strong, solid red.
Brian
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> >alone owns about 70% of the world total),
>
> Where on *earth* did you get such a figure? (The Italian tourist bureau?)
Quite a few of sources. Indeed, the figures range between 60% and 90%.
I chose 70% as a reasonable compromise.
> How are you defining "art work" such that a country of 60 million people
> on less than 1% of the world's land area could have more than the other *6
> billion* people inhabiting the rest of the world?
Exactly. And denying this would simply show a considerable degree of
ignorance in this respect.
One just needs to visit Italy to find an amazing amount of artworks
everywhere. Every little church or shrine in a town centre owns
treasures which would be in the main museum in every other country.
Our museums hold in their cellars as many works as they exhibit, since
there is not enough space to show them all.
One petty detail or two. Many art works by MINOR local artists which
were in minor local churches in towns not particularly famous for
their art compared to other Italian cities are now among the most
celebrated works in the Louvre in Paris. I could mention several works
by Guido Reni and the Carracci family, for instance, which were in
minor altars in minor churches in a town of average size like Bologna
and which are currently admired by thousands of visitors every day in
France. You see, we have so much stuff that we can even afford losing
some, and what we lose is highly valued by all the others.
And if you ever take a long trip to Europe, you'll find that a big
number of masterpieces in the most magnificient European capitals were
made by Italian artists (whereas works by foreign artists in Italy are
few). Go to Prague or Peterburg, if you don't believe me. Or have a
look at the most ancient and beautiful cathedral in the Kremlin, the
"Uspenskij Sobor", and you'll see that the architect was a Aristotele
Fioravanti, an artist from my very home town who had to emigrate
because of the strong competition he faced in Italy; he went abroad
and became the greatest architect of Russia.
Just a couple of examples, you may easily add a few thousands
yourselves, if you make the effort of opening an art history book.
> The *last few thousand years*? Ever hear of a place called "China"?
Ever heard of the Cultural Revolution? Try having a look at Jung
Chang's "Wild Swans", just to give you an idea. China has lost most of
her artworks forever, alas!
> It's one of the many countries in a continent called "Asia"
> whose culture deserves a little more than your condescending "respect".
I agree. Indeed, I am fond of the Asians. I admire many of their
qualities.
BUT: in every field, the superiority of the populations which have
achieved the highest standards throughout history must be
acknowledged. As far as art is concerned, the Europeans (especially
the Italians, but also the French, the Dutch and a few others,
according to the period and style) are the reference point. Perhaps in
a few centuries things will be different and we, the Europeans, will
be looking at Asia for inspiration, but at the moment it is quite the
opposite. Of course one has the right to have personal tastes, but
knowing everything about, say, Korean or Japanese art while
disregarding (or even deliberately ignoring) European art would be
like singing one country song while despising Bach and Beethoven.
I see that the problem is a lack of information on your part. I regret
to say that your remarkable preparation in things linguistics can only
be matched by your ignorance in things artistic.
Nicola
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
> factual basis for a fairly detailed understanding of western European
> history in the period 500-1500.
No, the person I'm referring to had very narrow views, believe me. And
he didn't care at all to deepen his knowledge of anything but his
narrow field.
> > If you consider that the vast majority of art works are in Europe (Italy
> >alone owns about 70% of the world total),
>
> I doubt this very much. I strongly suspect that it is true only by
> some very narrow definition of art work.
Take a trip to Italy. You'll change your mind. You'll see more art
works in a tiny church or alley than in most museums in the world. And
take a look at foreing museums. You'll find an amazing number of
Italian works.
> Don't be silly. For most of the last few thousand years Europe was
> irrelevant to the majority of the world's artists, if they even knew
> that it existed.
I'll try not to be silly. You try to be properly informed.
Nicola
Nicola Nobili dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata
Mr, please.
> fancies herself educated because she has a high
> school diploma
Incidentally, I have a university diploma. But I won't pick up this
chance to start a virtual fight.
Nicola (Mr.)
Brian M. Scott
dai labirintici meandri dell'ortografia disaccentata) wrote:
>sc...@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
[...]
>> > If you consider that the vast majority of art works are in Europe (Italy
>> >alone owns about 70% of the world total),
>> I doubt this very much. I strongly suspect that it is true only by
>> some very narrow definition of art work.
>Take a trip to Italy. You'll change your mind. You'll see more art
>works in a tiny church or alley than in most museums in the world. And
>take a look at foreing museums. You'll find an amazing number of
>Italian works.
You confirm that your definition of art is very narrow. And now that
I've read your response to Da, I see that you're an ignorant
chauvinist when it comes to art.
>> Don't be silly. For most of the last few thousand years Europe was
>> irrelevant to the majority of the world's artists, if they even knew
>> that it existed.
>I'll try not to be silly. You try to be properly informed.
You're obviously not competent to judge.
BMS
Nicola Nobili
> Similarly, in normal, everyday
> English one does not play the fagotto, but rather the bassoon. The
> two terms refer to the same instrument, but they are not in practice
> interchangeable in most discourse contexts.
Can you read Spanish? Have a look at another thread in this same
newsgroup, please. It might reveal a new horizon to you.
> No, you can't get off the hook that way. The four musical instruments
> are a clearly defined group within your larger collection.
Clearly? Just because it is convenient to you! I simply listed a
considerable number of Italian words used in English. All of them are
Italian words. All of them are used in English. I never referred to the
frequency, nor have I tried to distribute them into categories.
Incidentally, "sordino" and "appoggiatura" are even rarer and more technical
then "fagotto", but it was convenient for you to omit them. Yours is an
unfair argument, sorry.
> Even if
> this were not the case, names of common instruments are not technical
> terms specific to the field of music.
Are they specific to the field of mechanics? Medicine? Biology?
Nicola (Mr.)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Brian M. Scott
> > Similarly, in normal, everyday
> > English one does not play the fagotto, but rather the bassoon. The
> > two terms refer to the same instrument, but they are not in practice
> > interchangeable in most discourse contexts.
>
> Can you read Spanish? Have a look at another thread in this same
> newsgroup, please. It might reveal a new horizon to you.
>
> > No, you can't get off the hook that way. The four musical instruments
> > are a clearly defined group within your larger collection.
>
> Clearly? Just because it is convenient to you! I simply listed a
> considerable number of Italian words used in English. All of them are
> Italian words. All of them are used in English. I never referred to the
> frequency, nor have I tried to distribute them into categories.
> Incidentally, "sordino" and "appoggiatura" are even rarer and more technical
> then "fagotto", but it was convenient for you to omit them. Yours is an
> unfair argument, sorry.
That's just bullshit. Any string player, any brass player, and anyone
who reads about them or discusses them is familiar with "sordino," and
*any* classical musician or listener knows "appoggiatura," but "fagotto"
is *not* used in English.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Wolf Kirchmeir
dell'ortografia disaccentata wrote:
>"Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwol...@sympatico.ca>
>> Seems to me that Ms Nicola
>
>Mr, please.
My apologies.
Perhaps you could provide some information of how Italian names are marked
for gender. It seems that sometimes -a is feminine, and sometimes masculine.
Or do you just have to know?
Brian M. Scott
<nicolan...@libero.it> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott
>> Similarly, in normal, everyday
>> English one does not play the fagotto, but rather the bassoon. The
>> two terms refer to the same instrument, but they are not in practice
>> interchangeable in most discourse contexts.
> Can you read Spanish? Have a look at another thread in this same
>newsgroup, please. It might reveal a new horizon to you.
Because Phil Dragoman knows the word? So what? So do I. If he
claims that they're interchangeable in actual everyday use, he's
flat-out wrong, but I didn't see such a claim. (And if you really
want someone to look at another post, you should identify it
properly.)
>> No, you can't get off the hook that way. The four musical instruments
>> are a clearly defined group within your larger collection.
> Clearly? Just because it is convenient to you!
No. Whether you realized it or not, they form a group in at least two
respects: (1) they occur as a consecutive sublist within the whole,
and (2) they are all names of musical instruments, while the other
terms refer to various features of musical pieces. One expects the
technical terminology of music to be in general somewhat less familiar
than the names of the standard instruments.
> I simply listed a
>considerable number of Italian words used in English. All of them are
>Italian words. All of them are used in English. I never referred to the
>frequency, nor have I tried to distribute them into categories.
>Incidentally, "sordino" and "appoggiatura" are even rarer and more technical
>then "fagotto", but it was convenient for you to omit them. Yours is an
>unfair argument, sorry.
I didn't omit them. In my original post I characterized them as
'technical terms, recognized as such'.
>> Even if
>> this were not the case, names of common instruments are not technical
>> terms specific to the field of music.
> Are they specific to the field of mechanics? Medicine? Biology?
No. They are part of general cultural background knowledge.
BMS
Nicola Nobili
> Perhaps you could provide some information of how Italian names are marked
> for gender. It seems that sometimes -a is feminine, and sometimes
masculine.
> Or do you just have to know?
You're right, names ending in -a are generally feminine, except for some
names of Greek origin, like mine ("Nicola" meaning "winner of the people").
Two other masculine proper nouns of this kind are "Andrea" and "Luca", plus
a few uncommon ones like "Leonida", etc.
In general, names ending in -o are masculine. Two exceptions: mano
(hand) and eco (echo), plus some shortened forms like "foto" ("fotografia"),
"auto" ("automobile"), etc.
Names ending in -a are feminine, with some exceptions, especially names
ending in -ista, which may be of either gender (generally the article makes
it clear: IL giornalista is a man, LA giornalista is a woman).
Names ending in -e may be of either gender. In this case, the article
generally makes it clear.
Names ending in -u or -i are extremely few, generally exotic ones (gru,
zulú, etc.), you have to memorise them. The same goes for the words which
end in a consonant, which are always of foreign origin.
Nicola Nobili
> You confirm that your definition of art is very narrow.
So narrow that I spend much of my free time admiring art works and
studying art. I mean, "art", not just part of it. I visit exhibitions of
Japanese katanas, Russian cartoonists, American comic makers (I used to
collect American comics, not Italian ones, can you believe it?), I travel as
much as I can looking for art works and masterpieces (I could name the main
works and artists in most towns I have visited, in every country I have
personally been to)...
As I told you, extreme concentration results in merely memorising data
and names, but is not culture. This is why I love and admire ALL kinds of
art, everywhere I can. But this doesn't deny my statements, which you simply
(as usual) ignored, since you're unable to refute them.
> And now that
> I've read your response to Da, I see that you're an ignorant
> chauvinist when it comes to art.
You even didn't know that Italy is the country with the highest number
of art works in the world, and you're calling someone else "ignorant when it
comes to art"? Quite ridiculous.
Did you know that more than half the world's diamonds can be found in an
area in Africa probably not bigger than the Italian peninsula?
Did you know that China alone has won more Olympic gold medals in ping
pong than all other countries taken together?
Did you know that even if more than 3,000 languages are spoken in the
world, about half of ALL the letters written and mailed every day is in just
one language (English)?
I cannot understand why people don't want to believe that some countries
are the leaders in a certain field. It doesn't mean that the others do not
deserve respect, or that the situation may not change, but the current
situation cannot be denied.
You say I'm a chauvinist. Well, you haven't asked me anything about the
many aspects of Italy I despise. You need a document or important paper? It
will take you weeks if not months, and you don't even know where to ask for
it. You send a letter or postcard? God only knows when and if it will ever
reach its destination. You switch your tv on and there is a new scandal
every day. State run offices do not work. People seem to be unable to stand
in a line properly (queues are rather round than long in Italy). Scientific
research is neglected and even disregarded. Whenever I meet an Italian
abroad, I pretend to be a foreigner. And so on. And when I was younger, once
I even planned to leave the country and spend my life abroad.
I simply ackowledge what is to be admitted. Italian food, fashion, art,
music (in some historical periods), seas, are great. And foreigners who come
to Italy on vacation always agree with this. I can't see why there is so
much reluctance on your part.
> >I'll try not to be silly. You try to be properly informed.
>
> You're obviously not competent to judge.
Judge what? The number of art works in Italy? This is to be counted, not
judged. The fact that most art works you admire abroad (perhaps even in your
country, I don't know where you are from) were made by Italian artists or by
artists who studied in Italy? No judgement is required. I still can't see
your point. It seems that you are offended by the immense artistic patrimony
of my home country. Believe me, it is not my fault.
Nicola Nobili
> That's just bullshit. Any string player, any brass player, and anyone
> who reads about them or discusses them is familiar with "sordino," and
> *any* classical musician or listener knows "appoggiatura," but "fagotto"
> is *not* used in English.
Is *not* used? This seems rather too drastic a comment. Since I heard a
specialist use them and read some books and other kinds of material in which
it was used, it obviously can be used in English.
Nicola
Nicola Nobili
> Because Phil Dragoman knows the word?
Not only. You missed the best part of his post... You keep on omitting
what is not convenient to you.
> No. Whether you realized it or not, they form a group in at least two
> respects: (1) they occur as a consecutive sublist within the whole,
What was the characteristic of that sublist? They're all instruments.
The frequency is irrelevant.
> (2) they are all names of musical instruments, while the other
> terms refer to various features of musical pieces.
This doesn't say anything about the frequency of the words I mentioned.
I simply used the first words that came to my mind. I must have already said
that...
> No. They are part of general cultural background knowledge.
Our ways of reasoning evidently are incompatible. But I've got tired of
this game by now.
Nicola
Rob Bannister
Thanks. It's nice when someone actually knows.
Dylan Sung
Nicola Nobili wrote in message <9l4a34$77d61$5...@ID-64088.news.dfncis.de>...
:Peter T. Daniels
:> That's just bullshit. Any string player, any brass player, and anyone
:> who reads about them or discusses them is familiar with "sordino," and
:> *any* classical musician or listener knows "appoggiatura," but "fagotto"
:> is *not* used in English.
:
: Is *not* used? This seems rather too drastic a comment. Since I heard a
:specialist use them and read some books and other kinds of material in
which
:it was used, it obviously can be used in English.
I've never heard of fagotto before, and being a native of England, despite
being Chinese to boot, I've only heard of bassoon. Had someone else not
mentioned that, I'd not have known what type of thing or whatever it was. I
would've associated it with some form of timing on a score like pianissimo
or something. What a specialist does is have a narrow field of expertise. It
is quite unlike the average Joe on the street. Pete's comment is a fair one
in this respect.
Dyl.
Mike Wright
Who's this "Pete" character?