Iony?

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Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 5, 2013, 5:26:10 AM1/5/13
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Is pronouncing irony as iony very uncommon or mildly unusual?

More: http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 5, 2013, 8:40:24 AM1/5/13
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On Jan 5, 5:26 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Is pronouncing irony as iony very uncommon or mildly unusual?
>
> More:http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm

Welcome back ...

Pwesumably* you're listening to the common (Bwitsh) speech
"impediment" that labializes whatever r's survive in their dialect ...
"irony" isn't pronounced like "iron" (eye-urn), but as it's spelled --
eye-ruh-nee.

insufficient battery time & probably bandwidth to go hear it, here at
LSA.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 5, 2013, 12:02:50 PM1/5/13
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Sat, 5 Jan 2013 05:40:24 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

>On Jan 5, 5:26�am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Is pronouncing irony as iony very uncommon or mildly unusual?
>>
>> More:http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm
>
>Welcome back ...
>
>Pwesumably* you're listening to the common (Bwitsh) speech
>"impediment" that labializes whatever r's survive in their dialect ...

Yes, some do, Cockney I think.

But that wasn't the case here, as Walter Matthau was American, from
New York City's Lower East Side, according to Wikipedia.

>"irony" isn't pronounced like "iron" (eye-urn), but as it's spelled --
>eye-ruh-nee.

Right, that's what I thought.

>insufficient battery time & probably bandwidth to go hear it, here at
>LSA.

OK, later perhaps, then.
Walter Ma

Yusuf B Gursey

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Jan 5, 2013, 12:08:08 PM1/5/13
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what is LSA? Linguistic Society of America?

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 6, 2013, 10:06:24 AM1/6/13
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As I have mentioned in various other threads ...

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 6, 2013, 10:08:48 AM1/6/13
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On Jan 5, 12:02 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sat, 5 Jan 2013 05:40:24 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
> >On Jan 5, 5:26 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:

> >> Is pronouncing irony as iony very uncommon or mildly unusual?
>
> >> More:http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm
>
> >Welcome back ...
>
> >Pwesumably* you're listening to the common (Bwitsh) speech
> >"impediment" that labializes whatever r's survive in their dialect ...
>
> Yes, some do, Cockney I think.

I don't know about Cockney. I was thinking of upper-class twits
(doubtless the Funkster will take that as a derogation of his adopted
langoage).

> But that wasn't the case here, as Walter Matthau was American, from
> New York City's Lower East Side, according to Wikipedia.

You might have mentioned it was an _actor_. Is it an unguarded
interview, or as a character? Actors' performances are no more
legitimate a source of dialect info than singers are.

Arnaud F.

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Jan 6, 2013, 10:09:44 AM1/6/13
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Le dimanche 6 janvier 2013 16:06:24 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :


>
> As I have mentioned in various other threads ...

***

Most people possibly don't care...

A.

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 6, 2013, 10:12:04 AM1/6/13
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Lovely. Now yangg is attacking Yusuf.

Arnaud F.

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Jan 6, 2013, 10:22:27 AM1/6/13
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***

Talking about you, fraud.

Quote above is yours, Alzheimer.

A.

Arnaud F.

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Jan 6, 2013, 10:24:21 AM1/6/13
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Le dimanche 6 janvier 2013 16:08:48 UTC+1, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :

>
> I don't know about Cockney. I was thinking of upper-class twits
>
> (doubtless the Funkster will take that as a derogation of his adopted
>
> langoage).
>
***

langoaige is closer to stylish female Franglish.

A.

Yusuf B Gursey

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Jan 6, 2013, 12:26:04 PM1/6/13
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sorry, wasn't following. in which city, may I ask?

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 6, 2013, 1:23:50 PM1/6/13
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Sun, 6 Jan 2013 07:08:48 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

>On Jan 5, 12:02�pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> >> More: http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm

>You might have mentioned it was an _actor_. Is it an unguarded
>interview, or as a character?

It's all there, in my little article:
==
The Odd Couple [...] 1968, actor Walter Matthau, impersonating Oscar
Madison [...] the word �irony� without an r.
==

>Actors' performances are no more
>legitimate a source of dialect info than singers are.

Of course, there we go again.

http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm
==
A deliberate trait to depict a character who doesn�t know how to say
even the simplest of �difficult� words properly?
==

So I already accounted for the possibility that this might not be the
actor's dialect, but that of the character he was trying to portray.

benl...@ihug.co.nz

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Jan 6, 2013, 3:26:52 PM1/6/13
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On Jan 7, 7:23 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sun, 6 Jan 2013 07:08:48 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
As someone who grew up with an "incorrect" pronunciation of the word
"iron", I don't find the pronunciation of "irony" you describe at all
surprising. I would probably not even notice it as unusual if I heard
it from a non-rhotic speaker -- I'm impressed by your careful
listening. I would guess that it's not uncommon in actual speech,
despite not being recognized by dictionaries. People reading the word
would naturally make some association with "iron". There's even an
adjective "iron-y" for which your pronunciation is the accepted one.
There might even be folk-etymological ideas relating the two.

Although I still find the OED's new pronunciation system problematic,
it's interesting that they allow the pronunciation /ˈaɪərənɪ/ for
both the adjective and the noun, whereas the noun "iron" can only be /
ˈaɪən/. (Apparently they have not heard the rhotic pronunciation /
ˈaɪərn/.)

Nathan Sanders

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Jan 6, 2013, 6:49:28 PM1/6/13
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In article
<5cebdd38-e2be-4f23...@bx10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
It was in Boston this year. Luckily, it was not nearly as cold this
year around as it was when it was in Boston the last time.

Next year is in Minneapolis.

Nathan

--
Department of Linguistics
Swarthmore College
http://sanders.phonologist.org/

Brian M. Scott

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Jan 6, 2013, 8:14:13 PM1/6/13
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On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:49:28 -0500, Nathan Sanders
<san...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
<news:sanders-B56702...@news.eternal-september.org>
in sci.lang:

> In article
> <5cebdd38-e2be-4f23...@bx10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> Yusuf B Gursey <ygu...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Jan 6, 10:06�am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

>>> On Jan 5, 12:08�pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:

[...]

>>>> what is LSA? Linguistic Society of America?

>>> As I have mentioned in various other threads ...

>> sorry, wasn't following. in which city, may I ask?

> It was in Boston this year. Luckily, it was not nearly as
> cold this year around as it was when it was in Boston the
> last time.

> Next year is in Minneapolis.

St. Paul is nicer, but the Twin Cities really are something
of an oasis of culture. Still, it seems a strange place to
hold a January meeting.

Brian

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 6, 2013, 11:00:23 PM1/6/13
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On Jan 6, 8:14 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:49:28 -0500, Nathan Sanders
> <sand...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
> <news:sanders-B56702...@news.eternal-september.org>
> in sci.lang:
>
> > In article
> > <5cebdd38-e2be-4f23-9db4-e66502622...@bx10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >  Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jan 6, 10:06 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> On Jan 5, 12:08 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <ygur...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >>>> what is LSA? Linguistic Society of America?
> >>> As I have mentioned in various other threads ...
> >> sorry, wasn't following. in which city, may I ask?
> > It was in Boston this year.  Luckily, it was not nearly as
> > cold this year around as it was when it was in Boston the
> > last time.

It sure was on Thursday. But they predicted snow for Sunday morning,
and it was positively balmy.

> > Next year is in Minneapolis.
>
> St. Paul is nicer, but the Twin Cities really are something
> of an oasis of culture.  Still, it seems a strange place to
> hold a January meeting.

The next three are San Francisco, Washington DC, and Austin.

Brian M. Scott

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Jan 6, 2013, 11:39:20 PM1/6/13
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On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 20:00:23 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:282ce89e-58ad-4840...@c16g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:

[...]

> The next three are San Francisco, Washington DC, and
> Austin.

Oddly enough, I've never been to Austin, though I've been to
two January math meetings in San Antonio. The only bad part
of that was having to come back to Cleveland!

Brian

Adam Funk

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Jan 7, 2013, 5:12:06 AM1/7/13
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On 2013-01-06, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> As someone who grew up with an "incorrect" pronunciation of the word
> "iron", I don't find the pronunciation of "irony" you describe at all

What wrong pronunciation was that? (Just curious.)

> surprising. I would probably not even notice it as unusual if I heard
> it from a non-rhotic speaker -- I'm impressed by your careful
> listening. I would guess that it's not uncommon in actual speech,
> despite not being recognized by dictionaries. People reading the word
> would naturally make some association with "iron". There's even an
> adjective "iron-y" for which your pronunciation is the accepted one.
> There might even be folk-etymological ideas relating the two.
>
> Although I still find the OED's new pronunciation system problematic,
> it's interesting that they allow the pronunciation /ˈaɪərənɪ/ for
> both the adjective and the noun, whereas the noun "iron" can only be /
> ˈaɪən/. (Apparently they have not heard the rhotic pronunciation /
> ˈaɪərn/.)

I do find the OED's lack of support for rhotic pronunciations rather
irritating.


--
When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him
whose? --- Don Marquis

Adam Funk

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Jan 7, 2013, 5:10:30 AM1/7/13
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On 2013-01-06, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Jan 5, 12:02 pm, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Sat, 5 Jan 2013 05:40:24 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>> >On Jan 5, 5:26 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
>> >> Is pronouncing irony as iony very uncommon or mildly unusual?
>>
>> >> More:http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm
>>
>> >Welcome back ...
>>
>> >Pwesumably* you're listening to the common (Bwitsh) speech
>> >"impediment" that labializes whatever r's survive in their dialect ...
>>
>> Yes, some do, Cockney I think.
>
> I don't know about Cockney. I was thinking of upper-class twits
> (doubtless the Funkster will take that as a derogation of his adopted
> langoage).

You're nuts. I remain rhotic & don't hang around with upper-class
twits (or like them). (I do aim to use the British & American lexica
in the appropriate places, because it makes communication easier, but
that's just common sense.)

I suspect you're right to put "impediment" in scare-quotes --- I've
long suspected it's at least as much of an affectation as an
impediment, although I'm probably biased because I can't stand
Jonathan Woss for other reasons.


--
The three-martini lunch is the epitome of American efficiency.
Where else can you get an earful, a bellyful and a snootful at
the same time? [Gerald Ford, 1978]

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 7, 2013, 7:18:29 AM1/7/13
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On Jan 6, 11:39 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Jan 2013 20:00:23 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in
> <news:282ce89e-58ad-4840...@c16g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
> in sci.lang:
>
> [...]
>
> > The next three are San Francisco, Washington DC, and
> > Austin.
>
> Oddly enough, I've never been to Austin, though I've been to
> two January math meetings in San Antonio.  The only bad part
> of that was having to come back to Cleveland!

The AOS has gone to both Texas towns (and also Houston, sort of -- at
the Galleria, which is miles from anywhere so it was impossible to
visit the Menil or the Rothko Chapel), and both were wonderful
places. The Alamo isn't a disappointment.

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 7, 2013, 7:20:26 AM1/7/13
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On Jan 7, 5:12 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2013-01-06, benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > As someone who grew up with an "incorrect" pronunciation of the word
> > "iron", I don't find the pronunciation of "irony" you describe at all
>
> What wrong pronunciation was that?  (Just curious.)

"eye-run," presumably.

> surprising.

Adam Funk

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Jan 7, 2013, 4:04:47 PM1/7/13
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Well, I'm familiar with the issue of learning words from reading & not
knowing how to pronounce them (personally, & I know others with the
experience), but 'grew up with an "incorrect" pronunciation of the
word' suggested (to me, at least) that he meant others were doing it
too.


--
Master Foo said: "A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like
a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers
it and burns his hand." --- Eric Raymond

benl...@ihug.co.nz

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Jan 7, 2013, 6:27:55 PM1/7/13
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On Jan 7, 11:12 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
Well, it's inconsistent. Part of the inconsistency results from the
ongoing shift to the new pronunciation system -- which is itself
unsatisfactory.

So when I look up "park", I find: Brit. /pɑːk/ , U.S. /pɑrk/
which ignores non-rhotic US and rhotic UK pronunciations, but at least
acknowledges the presence of /r/ in some people's versions.
"Ark" on the other hand is given as just /ɑːk/.
but "bar" is /bɑː(r)/. (I think these are still in the old system.)

benl...@ihug.co.nz

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Jan 7, 2013, 6:53:49 PM1/7/13
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On Jan 8, 10:04 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2013-01-07, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 5:12 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >> On 2013-01-06, benli...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> >> > As someone who grew up with an "incorrect" pronunciation of the word
> >> > "iron", I don't find the pronunciation of "irony" you describe at all
>
> >> What wrong pronunciation was that?  (Just curious.)
>
> > "eye-run," presumably.
>
> >> surprising.
>
> Well, I'm familiar with the issue of learning words from reading & not
> knowing how to pronounce them (personally, & I know others with the
> experience), but 'grew up with an "incorrect" pronunciation of the
> word' suggested (to me, at least) that he meant others were doing it
> too.

Sure. I assume I learned it ("eye-r@n") from those around me, but it
was only much later that I became aware that it was non-standard, and
I never got around to questioning my immediate family and friends on
the matter. I concluded that it was (historically) a spelling
pronunciation. Not that I picked up the word from books -- it's so
common that I must have learned it in the normal way.

This came up a couple of years ago here, and I did find the OED's
explanation of how the pronunciation got out of whack with the
spelling -- IIRC they suggest an original trisyllabic pronunciation
with two successive schwa syllables, and the final being dropped (ai-@-
r@n > ai-@rn). Don't know whether that's generally accepted.

However, this time, looking through a few dictionaries, I came upon
something interesting in the Old Webster (1909?) that I dig out and
dust off occasionally.
For "iron" they give only "eye-urn" (I won't attempt to reproduce
their notation), but they refer to a note s.v. "apron".
For "apron" they have both "ape-run" and "ape-urn".
And the note says:
"The second pronunciation above [i.e. "ape-urn"] has until recently
been preferred. The change in pronunciation is analogous to that in
citron, saffron, etc., formerly pronounced [sit-urn, saf-urn] etc.
Iron still retains the pronunciation [eye-urn]."]
Interestingly OED gives both /ˈeɪprən/ and /ˈeɪpən/, but only /-rən/
for citron, saffron and a couple of other words I checked.
So possibly my little localect has simply pursued this analogical
tendency a little further than the rest.

Brian M. Scott

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Jan 7, 2013, 7:20:26 PM1/7/13
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On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:27:55 -0800 (PST),
"benl...@ihug.co.nz" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in
<news:b2fb6fa2-8c15-4015...@m4g2000pbd.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:

[...]

> "Ark" on the other hand is given as just /ɑːk/. but "bar"
> is /bɑː(r)/. (I think these are still in the old system.)

They are.

Brian

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 8, 2013, 5:33:15 AM1/8/13
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Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:53:49 -0800 (PST): "benl...@ihug.co.nz"
<benl...@ihug.co.nz> schreef/wrote:

>This came up a couple of years ago here, and I did find the OED's
>explanation of how the pronunciation got out of whack with the
>spelling -- IIRC they suggest an original trisyllabic pronunciation
>with two successive schwa syllables, and the final being dropped (ai-@-
>r@n > ai-@rn). Don't know whether that's generally accepted.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/iron#Etymology
So originally, there was an s (pronounced z?) and an r. Like still now
in Dutch: ijzer (noun), ijzeren (adjective).

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 8, 2013, 5:35:52 AM1/8/13
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Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:33:15 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
schreef/wrote:
>http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/iron#Etymology

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/irony
also gives a pronunciation with a post-syllable r. I can't remember if
Walter Matthau spoke non-rhotic in the movie, but because he's from
New York he might have. That woudl explain what I heard.

Adam Funk

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Jan 8, 2013, 6:38:00 AM1/8/13
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On 2013-01-07, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> On Jan 7, 11:12 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

>> I do find the OED's lack of support for rhotic pronunciations rather
>> irritating.

(OK, not *total* lack of support from them --- but inconsistent.)


> Well, it's inconsistent. Part of the inconsistency results from the
> ongoing shift to the new pronunciation system -- which is itself
> unsatisfactory.
>
> So when I look up "park", I find: Brit. /pɑːk/ , U.S. /pɑrk/
> which ignores non-rhotic US and rhotic UK pronunciations, but at least
> acknowledges the presence of /r/ in some people's versions.
> "Ark" on the other hand is given as just /ɑːk/.
> but "bar" is /bɑː(r)/. (I think these are still in the old system.)

Right, and there's "hot dog", which was discussed here a while back:

Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈhɒt dɒɡ/ , U.S. /ˈhɑt ˌdɑɡ/

That completely ignores the fact that a large number of Americans
(including me) have different vowels in "hot" & "dog". Wiktionary
makes more careful distinctions:

(UK) IPA: /ˈhɒt.dɒɡ/
(US) IPA: /ˈhɒt.dɒɡ/, /ˈhɒt.dɔɡ/
(Boston, New England) IPA: /ˈhʌt.dɒɡ/, [ˈhʌʔ.dɒːɡ]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hot_dog#Pronunciation

I like Wiki*'s policy of accommodating lots of distinctions, although
they admit to missing a few:

If, for example, you pronounce cot /ˈkɒt/ and caught /ˈkɔːt/ the
same, then you may simply ignore the difference between the symbols
/ɒ/ and /ɔː/, just as you ignore the distinction between the
written vowels o and au when pronouncing them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English


--
The history of the world is the history of a privileged few.
--- Henry Miller

Adam Funk

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Jan 8, 2013, 6:31:50 AM1/8/13
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That's interesting.


--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. [Robert R. Coveyou]

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 8, 2013, 10:52:50 AM1/8/13
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Sat, 05 Jan 2013 11:26:10 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
schreef/wrote:

>Is pronouncing irony as iony very uncommon or mildly unusual?
>
>More: http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm

I added two appendices,
http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm#20130108-1430, with references
to the actual spots in the movie. Eye-urny (Tony Randall) and eye-a-ny
(Walter Matthau), that what they were saying.

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 8, 2013, 3:51:23 PM1/8/13
to
On Jan 8, 10:52 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Sat, 05 Jan 2013 11:26:10 +0100: Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com>
> schreef/wrote:
>
> >Is pronouncing irony as iony very uncommon or mildly unusual?
>
> >More:http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm
>
> I added two appendices,http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm#20130108-1430, with references
> to the actual spots in the movie. Eye-urny (Tony Randall) and eye-a-ny
> (Walter Matthau), that what they were saying.

On the radio I just heard an interview with a lawyer who spoke of the
"ear-uh-ny" of his situation, and a few sentences later reiterated
that it was "eye-ron-ic."

(Since he was American, the labialization of his r's would indeed be
considered an impediment, like the one a childhood friend of mine was
sent to a speech therapist to cure.)

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 9, 2013, 1:17:22 AM1/9/13
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Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

>On the radio I just heard an interview with a lawyer who spoke of the
>"ear-uh-ny" of his situation, [...]

To irr is human. (:-0)

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 9, 2013, 1:18:22 AM1/9/13
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Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

>(Since he was American, the labialization of his r's would indeed be
>considered an impediment, like the one a childhood friend of mine was
>sent to a speech therapist to cure.)

I don't really see what r-labialization (which does indeed occur in
Britain, but is rare and uncommon) has to do with the issue.

Arnaud F.

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Jan 9, 2013, 1:54:18 AM1/9/13
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Le mercredi 9 janvier 2013 07:18:22 UTC+1, Ruud Harmsen a écrit :
> Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>

>
> I don't really see what r-labialization (which does indeed occur in
>
> Britain, but is rare and uncommon) has to do with the issue.

***

The bigoted fraud can't help insulting other speakers of English.

A.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 9, 2013, 5:13:45 AM1/9/13
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Tue, 8 Jan 2013 22:54:18 -0800 (PST): "Arnaud F."
<fournet...@wanadoo.fr> schreef/wrote:

>The bigoted fraud can't help insulting other speakers of English.

You are not exactly the person of choice when it comes to lecturing
others about insults, are you?

Trond Engen

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Jan 9, 2013, 6:28:20 AM1/9/13
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Ruud Harmsen:
If I were in need of insults, I think one of his lectures would be a
good place to start. Not very creative, maybe, but it seems like a
simple and consistent system.

--
Trond Engen

Arnaud F.

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 7:19:42 AM1/9/13
to
***

Actually my insults are currently limited to:

- PTD who is a bigoted fraud,
- the Gaggithaler Möngi,
- Brian Maynard Scott, who is an asshole.

They deserve the treatment they get.

A.

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 8:28:11 AM1/9/13
to
On Jan 9, 1:18 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> >(Since he was American, the labialization of his r's would indeed be
> >considered an impediment, like the one a childhood friend of mine was
> >sent to a speech therapist to cure.)
>
> I don't really see what r-labialization (which does indeed occur in
> Britain, but is rare and uncommon) has to do with the issue.

It's not "rare and uncommon," it's a feature of Brit upper-class-twit
affectation.

Your transcription "iony" suggests that that's what you were hearing.

Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 9:02:23 AM1/9/13
to
Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:28:20 +0100: Trond Engen <tron...@engen.priv.no>
schreef/wrote:
Yes, lecturing in a different sense, or I used the word in a wrong
one.

Ruud Harmsen

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 9:13:24 AM1/9/13
to
Wed, 9 Jan 2013 05:28:11 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

>On Jan 9, 1:18�am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>>
>> >(Since he was American, the labialization of his r's would indeed be
>> >considered an impediment, like the one a childhood friend of mine was
>> >sent to a speech therapist to cure.)
>>
>> I don't really see what r-labialization (which does indeed occur in
>> Britain, but is rare and uncommon) has to do with the issue.
>
>It's not "rare and uncommon," it's a feature of Brit upper-class-twit
>affectation.

British upper-class-twits are rare. And most of them have different
speech defects than that one. Mohvove, labialized ah's also occuh vin
certain types of upstairs-downstairs style Cockney.

>Your transcription "iony" suggests that that's what you were hearing.

It really helps if you first read what you comment to. Here's the link
again: http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm and in particular
http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm#20130108-1610 .

And because you are known for not clicking links:

<capclocks on>I WAS WRITING ABOUT AN AMERICAN MOVIE WITH AMERICAN
ACTORS AND AMERICAN CHARACTERS</CAPSLOCKS> (and two English women).
One rhothic and one not, i.e. New Yorkish. Who says weuyse (worse) and
ceuyse (curse). He says eye-uh-ny and the rhotic guy says eye-err-ny.
I err not cause I heuyd it myself. And not through the grapevine.

Adam Funk

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 9:20:09 AM1/9/13
to
On 2013-01-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Jan 9, 1:18 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>>
>> >(Since he was American, the labialization of his r's would indeed be
>> >considered an impediment, like the one a childhood friend of mine was
>> >sent to a speech therapist to cure.)
>>
>> I don't really see what r-labialization (which does indeed occur in
>> Britain, but is rare and uncommon) has to do with the issue.
>
> It's not "rare and uncommon," it's a feature of Brit upper-class-twit
> affectation.

Overt UCTs are rare, however. Wikipedia (FWIW) says:

Use of labiodental /r/ is commonly stigmatized by prescriptivists
who suggest standards of correctness within the English language.
Regardless, the consonant [ʋ] is used in a variety of other
languages and is increasing in many accents of British English.[1]
The majority of speakers using this realization are from the
southeastern part of the country, particularly in London. It is
also occasionally heard in some speakers of Boston and New York
City English, though more often in an exaggerated parody of these
dialects, as famously portrayed by the Looney Tunes character Elmer
Fudd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-labialization

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 1:38:04 PM1/9/13
to
On Jan 9, 9:13 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> Wed, 9 Jan 2013 05:28:11 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
It further transpired that you were talking about Jack Klugman and
Tony Randall. I suppose you're not familiar with their work, but they
very definitely both played specific types, and the accents they
ADOPTED FOR THE CHARACTERS THEY PORTRAYED need have nothing whatsoever
to do with any actual accent or with their own native speech.

Most likely, you were talking about *Grumpy Old Men* (or its sequel),
which was an exploitation of the relationship of their characters in
the TV verson of *The Odd Couple* (which they presumably could not
reprise without paying immense licensing fees to Neil Simon).

Maybe you heard a clip of Jack Klugman in his obitiaries last week. Go
check out _all_ his movies to maybe get an idea of his range.

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 1:39:52 PM1/9/13
to
On Jan 9, 9:20 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2013-01-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Jan 9, 1:18 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
> >> Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> >> >(Since he was American, the labialization of his r's would indeed be
> >> >considered an impediment, like the one a childhood friend of mine was
> >> >sent to a speech therapist to cure.)
>
> >> I don't really see what r-labialization (which does indeed occur in
> >> Britain, but is rare and uncommon) has to do with the issue.
>
> > It's not "rare and uncommon," it's a feature of Brit upper-class-twit
> > affectation.
>
> Overt UCTs are rare, however.  Wikipedia (FWIW) says:
>
>    Use of labiodental /r/ is commonly stigmatized by prescriptivists
>    who suggest standards of correctness within the English language.
>    Regardless, the consonant [ʋ] is used in a variety of other
>    languages and is increasing in many accents of British English.[1]
>    The majority of speakers using this realization are from the
>    southeastern part of the country, particularly in London. It is
>    also occasionally heard in some speakers of Boston and New York
>    City English, though more often in an exaggerated parody of these
>    dialects, as famously portrayed by the Looney Tunes character Elmer
>    Fudd.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-labialization

No, Elmer Fudd's problem is yet another different thing! His "wabbits"
have nothing of the rhotic about them.

benl...@ihug.co.nz

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 5:07:29 PM1/9/13
to
Really? And all the upper-class British twits you keep referring to
definitely have "something rhotic about them"? Could you perhaps point
to some credible phonetic study which would support this claim?

And what about Barbara Walters and Kay Francis? Or the character Barry
Kripke in "Big Bang Theory"? Or David Zayas (Puerto Rican actor,
raised in the Bronx)? These are all Americans mentioned in Wikipedia
(s.v. "Rhotacism") as having the labialized-r pronunciation.

Of course fictional characters may use an exaggerated version of the
trait (this would also apply to Pontius Pilate as depicted in "Life of
Brian"), but that hardly makes it a "different thing".

Incidentally, the various Brits mentioned in this same article as
having labialized-r are by no means all of upper-class origin --
ee.gg. Roy Hodgson (football coach), Matthew Bellamy (singer),
Jonathan Ross (Wossy) (TV presenter), Frank Muir (radio writer and
talker), Roy Jenkins (politician)... You can easily check their online
biographies if you doubt this.

In fact, it would be interesting to know how this particular feature
came to be stereotyped as a class indicator, since it is neither
exclusively British nor exclusively upper-class. I have not found any
leads to serious linguistic opinion on the matter.

Adam Funk

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 5:15:30 PM1/9/13
to
But he did a lot to popularize Wagner, so he's not all bad!

Seriously, I guess you mean that his wabbits have [w] rather than [ʋ].
Frankly, I don't think I could pronounce --- possibly even
consistently hear --- the distinction without training, so maybe the
actors who did his voice similarly did an approximation.

Now, returning to the accent/impediment/affectation question:--- let's
suppose that some people (e.g., some Cockneys) *naturally* acquire
this [ʋ] for /r/; what do twits deliberately going for the affectation
produce --- wouldn't it be a close approximation drawn from their
stock of natural phones?


(Returning to a different recent topic, I see that I'm apparently a
fan of sentential adverbs that violate the "ADJ+ly, S" = "It is ADJ
that S" principle. Oh well.)


--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. --- Lester Bangs

johnk

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 6:41:26 PM1/9/13
to
The movie "The Odd Couple" stars Walter Mathau as Oscar and Jack Lemon as Felix. The TV show had Jack Klugman and Tony Randall playing the parts. The You-tube clip is from the movie. Mathau's character is lacking an 'r' and it sounds like 'iony'. Lemon's character has the 'r' and it sounds like 'eye-earn-y' which is how I would pronounce it here in Kansas.

JohnK

benl...@ihug.co.nz

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 8:57:03 PM1/9/13
to
On Jan 10, 12:41 pm, johnk <jhobartk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 12:38:04 PM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Jan 9, 9:13 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
> > > Wed, 9 Jan 2013 05:28:11 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> > > <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> > > >On Jan 9, 1:18 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> > > >> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> > > >> >(Since he was American, the labialization of his r's would indeed be
>
> > > >> >considered an impediment, like the one a childhood friend of mine was
>
> > > >> >sent to a speech therapist to cure.)
>
> > > >> I don't really see what r-labialization (which does indeed occur in
>
> > > >> Britain, but is rare and uncommon) has to do with the issue.
>
> > > >It's not "rare and uncommon," it's a feature of Brit upper-class-twit
>
> > > >affectation.
>
> > > British upper-class-twits are rare. And most of them have different
>
> > > speech defects than that one. Mohvove, labialized ah's also occuh vin
>
> > > certain types of upstairs-downstairs style Cockney.
>
> > > >Your transcription "iony" suggests that that's what you were hearing.
>
> > > It really helps if you first read what you comment to. Here's the link
>
> > > again:http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htmandin particularhttp://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm#20130108-1610.
>
> > > And because you are known for not clicking links:
>
> > > <capclocks on>I WAS WRITING ABOUT AN AMERICAN MOVIE WITH AMERICAN
>
> > > ACTORS AND AMERICAN CHARACTERS</CAPSLOCKS> (and two English women).
>
> > > One rhothic and one not, i.e. New Yorkish. Who says weuyse (worse) and
>
> > > ceuyse (curse). He says eye-uh-ny and the rhotic guy says eye-err-ny.
>
> > > I err not cause I heuyd it myself. And not through the grapevine.
>
> > It further transpired that you were talking about Jack Klugman and
>
> > Tony Randall. I suppose you're not familiar with their work, but they
>
> > very definitely both played specific types, and the accents they
>
> > ADOPTED FOR THE CHARACTERS THEY PORTRAYED need have nothing whatsoever
>
> > to do with any actual accent or with their own native speech.
>
> > Most likely, you were talking about *Grumpy Old Men* (or its sequel),
>
> > which was an exploitation of the relationship of their characters in
>
> > the TV verson of *The Odd Couple* (which they presumably could not
>
> > reprise without paying immense licensing fees to Neil Simon).
>
> > Maybe you heard a clip of Jack Klugman in his obitiaries last week. Go
>
> > check out _all_ his movies to maybe get an idea of his range.
>
> The movie "The Odd Couple" stars Walter Mathau as Oscar and Jack Lemon as Felix.  The TV show had Jack Klugman and Tony Randall playing the parts.  The You-tube clip is from the movie.  Mathau's character is lacking an 'r' and it sounds like 'iony'.  Lemon's character has the 'r' and it sounds like 'eye-earn-y' which is how I would pronounce it here in Kansas.
>
> JohnK

Congratulations! You're the first to confirm my suspicion that "eye-
earn-y" is not uncommon. (Ruud's site also links to an anonymous
Wiktionary speaker with the same.)
You've also straightened out the identities of the actors in the
original clip. Jack Lemmon, I see, was born, raised and educated in
the Boston area, hence might be non-rhotic in his native accent. I
wonder whether he/they made Felix rhotic in order to heighten the
contrast with Oscar?

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 11:15:07 PM1/9/13
to
On Jan 9, 6:41 pm, johnk <jhobartk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 12:38:04 PM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Jan 9, 9:13 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
> > > Wed, 9 Jan 2013 05:28:11 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> > > <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> > > >On Jan 9, 1:18 am, Ruud Harmsen <r...@rudhar.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> Tue, 8 Jan 2013 12:51:23 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
>
> > > >> <gramma...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:
>
> > > >> >(Since he was American, the labialization of his r's would indeed be
>
> > > >> >considered an impediment, like the one a childhood friend of mine was
>
> > > >> >sent to a speech therapist to cure.)
>
> > > >> I don't really see what r-labialization (which does indeed occur in
>
> > > >> Britain, but is rare and uncommon) has to do with the issue.
>
> > > >It's not "rare and uncommon," it's a feature of Brit upper-class-twit
>
> > > >affectation.
>
> > > British upper-class-twits are rare. And most of them have different
>
> > > speech defects than that one. Mohvove, labialized ah's also occuh vin
>
> > > certain types of upstairs-downstairs style Cockney.
>
> > > >Your transcription "iony" suggests that that's what you were hearing.
>
> > > It really helps if you first read what you comment to. Here's the link
>
> > > again:http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htmandin particularhttp://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm#20130108-1610.
>
> > > And because you are known for not clicking links:
>
> > > <capclocks on>I WAS WRITING ABOUT AN AMERICAN MOVIE WITH AMERICAN
>
> > > ACTORS AND AMERICAN CHARACTERS</CAPSLOCKS> (and two English women).
>
> > > One rhothic and one not, i.e. New Yorkish. Who says weuyse (worse) and
>
> > > ceuyse (curse). He says eye-uh-ny and the rhotic guy says eye-err-ny.
>
> > > I err not cause I heuyd it myself. And not through the grapevine.
>
> > It further transpired that you were talking about Jack Klugman and
>
> > Tony Randall. I suppose you're not familiar with their work, but they
>
> > very definitely both played specific types, and the accents they
>
> > ADOPTED FOR THE CHARACTERS THEY PORTRAYED need have nothing whatsoever
>
> > to do with any actual accent or with their own native speech.
>
> > Most likely, you were talking about *Grumpy Old Men* (or its sequel),
>
> > which was an exploitation of the relationship of their characters in
>
> > the TV verson of *The Odd Couple* (which they presumably could not
>
> > reprise without paying immense licensing fees to Neil Simon).
>
> > Maybe you heard a clip of Jack Klugman in his obitiaries last week. Go
>
> > check out _all_ his movies to maybe get an idea of his range.
>
> The movie "The Odd Couple" stars Walter Mathau as Oscar and Jack Lemon as Felix.  The TV show had Jack Klugman and Tony Randall playing the parts.  The You-tube clip is from the movie.  Mathau's character is lacking an 'r' and it sounds like 'iony'.  Lemon's character has the 'r' and it sounds like 'eye-earn-y' which is how I would pronounce it here in Kansas.

Lemmon.

That's what I said. They couldn't do their "Odd Couple" characters in
a movie without paying Neil Simon for the use of the characters -- or
maybe even without having him write the script himself -- so they
cloned the characters in the "Grumpy Old Men" franchise.

They also worked together in a number of stage plays after the TV
series ended, including *The Odd Couple* for at least one run (a while
ago I read the book Jack wrote about their partnership after Tony
died).

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 11:22:41 PM1/9/13
to
No, only a lifetime of hearing them. You might try tracking down
audios of Max Black and Eric Blackall, professors of, respectively,
philosophy and German literature at Cornell whose classes I took.

> And what about Barbara Walters and Kay Francis? Or the character Barry
> Kripke in "Big Bang Theory"? Or David Zayas (Puerto Rican actor,
> raised in the Bronx)? These are all Americans mentioned in Wikipedia
> (s.v. "Rhotacism") as having the labialized-r pronunciation.

I have almost never listened to Barbara Walters, but Gilda Radner's
Baba Wawa had no rhotacism. Kripke's quirk is utterly artificial and
is essentially the Elmer Fudd [w]. Zayas (whom I know from Dexter, and
he had a cameo in a broadcase TV show last week) has a Nuyorican
accent, and the /r/ may or may not be characteristic.

> Of course fictional characters may use an exaggerated version of the
> trait (this would also apply to Pontius Pilate as depicted in "Life of
> Brian"), but that hardly makes it a "different thing".

No, but the sould of it does.

> Incidentally, the various Brits mentioned in this same article as
> having labialized-r are by no means all of upper-class origin --
> ee.gg. Roy Hodgson (football coach), Matthew Bellamy (singer),
> Jonathan Ross (Wossy) (TV presenter), Frank Muir (radio writer and
> talker), Roy Jenkins (politician)... You can easily check their online
> biographies if you doubt this.

The only one of those I've heard of is Frank Muir, and he's certainly
one I was referring to. Perhaps I've heard the others, though I rather
doubt it.

> In fact, it would be interesting to know how this particular feature
> came to be stereotyped as a class indicator, since it is neither
> exclusively British nor exclusively upper-class. I have not found any
> leads to serious linguistic opinion on the matter.-

Maybe persons from other classes who have it don't make it onto the
media.

A few weeks ago B&N was selling all Brit TV at 50%, so I got the
complete Jeeves & Wooster series for $30. Presumably I will hear
plenty of UCTs there.

Peter T. Daniels

unread,
Jan 9, 2013, 11:30:06 PM1/9/13
to
On Jan 9, 5:15 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2013-01-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Jan 9, 9:20 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> >> Overt UCTs are rare, however.  Wikipedia (FWIW) says:
>
> >>    Use of labiodental /r/ is commonly stigmatized by prescriptivists
> >>    who suggest standards of correctness within the English language.
> >>    Regardless, the consonant [ʋ] is used in a variety of other
> >>    languages and is increasing in many accents of British English.[1]
> >>    The majority of speakers using this realization are from the
> >>    southeastern part of the country, particularly in London. It is
> >>    also occasionally heard in some speakers of Boston and New York
> >>    City English, though more often in an exaggerated parody of these
> >>    dialects, as famously portrayed by the Looney Tunes character Elmer
> >>    Fudd.
>
> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-labialization
>
> > No, Elmer Fudd's problem is yet another different thing! His "wabbits"
> > have nothing of the rhotic about them.
>
> But he did a lot to popularize Wagner, so he's not all bad!

? Who suggested he was bad?

> Seriously, I guess you mean that his wabbits have [w] rather than [ʋ].

There's nothing "rhotistic" about the latter IPA symbol. There is also
nothing rhotistic about Elmer Fudd's /r/s. Compare those named just
above by Ross.

> Frankly, I don't think I could pronounce --- possibly even
> consistently hear --- the distinction without training, so maybe the
> actors who did his voice similarly did an approximation.

Mel Blanc is not "actors." He is only the greatest, and most
versatile, voiceover artist who has ever lived. (These days, animated
features center on the otherwise famous actors who voice the
characters. In the olden days, the focus was on the characters and
Disney's voicers were supposedly never identified.)

> Now, returning to the accent/impediment/affectation question:--- let's
> suppose that some people (e.g., some Cockneys) *naturally* acquire
> this [ʋ] for /r/; what do twits deliberately going for the affectation
> produce --- wouldn't it be a close approximation drawn from their
> stock of natural phones?

For the gazillionth time, RP is virtually no one's native accent. They
go to Public School in order to have it beaten into them. At moments
of extreme stress they presumably revert to their roots -- just, in
fact, like Eliza Doolittle at Ascot. (Which, if the book I have
contaiining both the play and the screenplay is to be believed, is
virtually the only scene that was not taken verbatim from GBS.)

benl...@ihug.co.nz

unread,
Jan 10, 2013, 12:28:05 AM1/10/13
to
Neither of them "upper class" in any serious sense.

> > And what about Barbara Walters and Kay Francis? Or the character Barry
> > Kripke in "Big Bang Theory"? Or David Zayas (Puerto Rican actor,
> > raised in the Bronx)? These are all Americans mentioned in Wikipedia
> > (s.v. "Rhotacism") as having the labialized-r pronunciation.
>
> I have almost never listened to Barbara Walters, but Gilda Radner's
> Baba Wawa had no rhotacism.

Strange that other people should refer to "Gilda Radner's "Baba Wawa"
impersonation ... on Saturday Night Live, featuring her idiosyncratic
speech with its rounded "R"" (from Wikipedia on BW).

Kripke's quirk is utterly artificial and
> is essentially the Elmer Fudd [w]. Zayas (whom I know from Dexter, and
> he had a cameo in a broadcase TV show last week) has a Nuyorican
> accent, and the /r/ may or may not be characteristic.

Whether characteristic or not, you admit he does it?

> > Of course fictional characters may use an exaggerated version of the
> > trait (this would also apply to Pontius Pilate as depicted in "Life of
> > Brian"), but that hardly makes it a "different thing".
>
> No, but the sould of it does.

Yet apparently you are unable to explain what makes this ineffable
difference in sound?

> > Incidentally, the various Brits mentioned in this same article as
> > having labialized-r are by no means all of upper-class origin --
> > ee.gg. Roy Hodgson (football coach), Matthew Bellamy (singer),
> > Jonathan Ross (Wossy) (TV presenter), Frank Muir (radio writer and
> > talker), Roy Jenkins (politician)... You can easily check their online
> > biographies if you doubt this.
>
> The only one of those I've heard of is Frank Muir, and he's certainly
> one I was referring to. Perhaps I've heard the others, though I rather
> doubt it.
>
> > In fact, it would be interesting to know how this particular feature
> > came to be stereotyped as a class indicator, since it is neither
> > exclusively British nor exclusively upper-class. I have not found any
> > leads to serious linguistic opinion on the matter.-
>
> Maybe persons from other classes who have it don't make it onto the
> media.

I just finished giving you a list of half a dozen people "from other
classes" who have this feature! Or is being in the media your
definition of "upper class"?

benl...@ihug.co.nz

unread,
Jan 10, 2013, 4:09:21 AM1/10/13
to
On Jan 10, 11:07 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:
Well, here's something a little bit helpful:

Paul Foulkes & Gerard J.Docherty, "Another chapter in the story of /
r/: 'Labiodental' variants in British English'. Journal of
Sociolinguistics 4(1): 30-59 (2000).

Some points from a quick perusal:

- First evidence from the early XIX c.
- Long regarded as an infantilism or speech defect.
- Stereotypical in unflattering portrayals of the upper classes, in
authors from Dickens to Orwell to Monty Python
- Wells (1982) apparently the first to suggest that it is _not_
significantly more frequent in upper class speech. (I notice that
Ross's original "U and non-U" paper (1954) does not mention it.)
- At the present time it is actually an expanding feature in non-
standard English, especially the southeast. (More detail in the book
_Urban Voices_ (1999) edited by these two.) It seems to have been
originally a Cockney feature, which they suggest may have its earliest
origins in the London Jewish community.

pauljk

unread,
Jan 10, 2013, 5:07:51 AM1/10/13
to

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:b260f13c-6975-4773...@n9g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
Beaten into them? Oh, really?

I have been to England many times and in the seventies I was seconded
there for two years by a British company I was working for in NZ.
Perhaps it wasn't gazillion times, but many many times I came across
young pre-school children speaking RP just like their parents.

I wonder how many of them would still fit into your "virtually no one".

pjk

Adam Funk

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Jan 10, 2013, 6:59:47 AM1/10/13
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On 2013-01-10, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Jan 9, 5:15 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-01-09, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Jan 9, 9:20 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>> >> Overt UCTs are rare, however.  Wikipedia (FWIW) says:
>>
>> >>    Use of labiodental /r/ is commonly stigmatized by prescriptivists
>> >>    who suggest standards of correctness within the English language.
>> >>    Regardless, the consonant [ʋ] is used in a variety of other
>> >>    languages and is increasing in many accents of British English.[1]
>> >>    The majority of speakers using this realization are from the
>> >>    southeastern part of the country, particularly in London. It is
>> >>    also occasionally heard in some speakers of Boston and New York
>> >>    City English, though more often in an exaggerated parody of these
>> >>    dialects, as famously portrayed by the Looney Tunes character Elmer
>> >>    Fudd.
>>
>> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-labialization
>>
>> > No, Elmer Fudd's problem is yet another different thing! His "wabbits"
>> > have nothing of the rhotic about them.
>>
>> But he did a lot to popularize Wagner, so he's not all bad!
>
> ? Who suggested he was bad?

Well, he was always trying to shoot Bugs Bunny.


>> Seriously, I guess you mean that his wabbits have [w] rather than [ʋ].
>
> There's nothing "rhotistic" about the latter IPA symbol. There is also
> nothing rhotistic about Elmer Fudd's /r/s. Compare those named just
> above by Ross.

What's the symbol for the thing you consider a labialized /r/ then?


>> Frankly, I don't think I could pronounce --- possibly even
>> consistently hear --- the distinction without training, so maybe the
>> actors who did his voice similarly did an approximation.
>
> Mel Blanc is not "actors." He is only the greatest, and most
> versatile, voiceover artist who has ever lived.

Of course! But several different artists (I don't see what's wrong
with calling people who do voices "actors" --- after all, the term
applies to radio performers) alternated in the rôle of Elmer Fudd from
1937 to 1989 (when Mel Blanc died); from scanning the list, Arthur
Q. Bryan seems to have played Fudd at least as often as Blanc did.

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0029092/


--
Unix is a user-friendly operating system. It's just very choosy about
its friends.

Adam Funk

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Jan 10, 2013, 7:04:01 AM1/10/13
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For the gazillionth time, that is not true. It is often, but
certainly not always, a native accent. If anything, it's more likely
to be native now than it used to be: fewer people are trying to learn
it deliberately, & the media no longer promote it. Furthermore, very
few speakers of RP have this labialized /r/.

Anyway, coming back to the point of the thread:--- what's the
difference between a natural lablialized /r/ & an affected one?

Adam Funk

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Jan 10, 2013, 7:05:28 AM1/10/13
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On 2013-01-10, pauljk wrote:

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message

>> For the gazillionth time, RP is virtually no one's native accent. They
>> go to Public School in order to have it beaten into them.
>
> Beaten into them? Oh, really?
>
> I have been to England many times and in the seventies I was seconded
> there for two years by a British company I was working for in NZ.
> Perhaps it wasn't gazillion times, but many many times I came across
> young pre-school children speaking RP just like their parents.
>
> I wonder how many of them would still fit into your "virtually no one".


Apparently his mind is made up on this one, & evidence isn't going to
help.


--
Slade was the coolest band in England. They were the kind of guys
that would push your car out of a ditch. --- Alice Cooper

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 10, 2013, 7:38:50 AM1/10/13
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On Jan 10, 12:28 am, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz>
Distinguished elderly British professors are not upper class?

> > > And what about Barbara Walters and Kay Francis? Or the character Barry
> > > Kripke in "Big Bang Theory"? Or David Zayas (Puerto Rican actor,
> > > raised in the Bronx)? These are all Americans mentioned in Wikipedia
> > > (s.v. "Rhotacism") as having the labialized-r pronunciation.
>
> > I have almost never listened to Barbara Walters, but Gilda Radner's
> > Baba Wawa had no rhotacism.
>
> Strange that other people should refer to "Gilda Radner's "Baba Wawa"
> impersonation ... on Saturday Night Live, featuring her idiosyncratic
> speech with its rounded "R"" (from Wikipedia on BW).
>
> Kripke's quirk is utterly artificial and
>
> > is essentially the Elmer Fudd [w]. Zayas (whom I know from Dexter, and
> > he had a cameo in a broadcase TV show last week) has a Nuyorican
> > accent, and the /r/ may or may not be characteristic.
>
> Whether characteristic or not, you admit he does it?
>
> > > Of course fictional characters may use an exaggerated version of the
> > > trait (this would also apply to Pontius Pilate as depicted in "Life of
> > > Brian"), but that hardly makes it a "different thing".
>
> > No, but the sould of it does.
>
> Yet apparently you are unable to explain what makes this ineffable
> difference in sound?

Yes, I am unable to explain it. If I write down my impression of what
causes the distinction, you'll just mock it. If you can't hear the
difference between Baba Wawa / Elmer Fudd / Barry Kripke [all of them
caricatures] and Frank Muir / David Zayas, then you need to pay more
attention.

> > > Incidentally, the various Brits mentioned in this same article as
> > > having labialized-r are by no means all of upper-class origin --
> > > ee.gg. Roy Hodgson (football coach), Matthew Bellamy (singer),
> > > Jonathan Ross (Wossy) (TV presenter), Frank Muir (radio writer and
> > > talker), Roy Jenkins (politician)... You can easily check their online
> > > biographies if you doubt this.
>
> > The only one of those I've heard of is Frank Muir, and he's certainly
> > one I was referring to. Perhaps I've heard the others, though I rather
> > doubt it.
>
> > > In fact, it would be interesting to know how this particular feature
> > > came to be stereotyped as a class indicator, since it is neither
> > > exclusively British nor exclusively upper-class. I have not found any
> > > leads to serious linguistic opinion on the matter.-
>
> > Maybe persons from other classes who have it don't make it onto the
> > media.
>
> I just finished giving you a list of half a dozen people "from other
> classes" who have this feature! Or is being in the media your
> definition of "upper class"?

Apparently it's not yours.

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 10, 2013, 7:42:10 AM1/10/13
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No idea. Certainly not "labiodental approximant."

> >> Frankly, I don't think I could pronounce --- possibly even
> >> consistently hear --- the distinction without training, so maybe the
> >> actors who did his voice similarly did an approximation.
>
> > Mel Blanc is not "actors." He is only the greatest, and most
> > versatile, voiceover artist who has ever lived.
>
> Of course!  But several different artists (I don't see what's wrong
> with calling people who do voices "actors" --- after all, the term
> applies to radio performers) alternated in the rôle of Elmer Fudd from
> 1937 to 1989 (when Mel Blanc died); from scanning the list, Arthur
> Q. Bryan seems to have played Fudd at least as often as Blanc did.

I find that rather hard to believe.

> http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0029092/

Peter T. Daniels

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Jan 10, 2013, 7:42:47 AM1/10/13
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On Jan 10, 7:04 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2013-01-10, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > On Jan 9, 5:15 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >> Now, returning to the accent/impediment/affectation question:--- let's
> >> suppose that some people (e.g., some Cockneys) *naturally* acquire
> >> this [ʋ] for /r/; what do twits deliberately going for the affectation
> >> produce --- wouldn't it be a close approximation drawn from their
> >> stock of natural phones?
>
> > For the gazillionth time, RP is virtually no one's native accent. They
> > go to Public School in order to have it beaten into them. At moments
> > of extreme stress they presumably revert to their roots -- just, in
> > fact, like Eliza Doolittle at Ascot. (Which, if the book I have
> > contaiining both the play and the screenplay is to be believed, is
> > virtually the only scene that was not taken verbatim from GBS.)
>
> For the gazillionth time, that is not true.  It is often, but
> certainly not always, a native accent.  If anything, it's more likely
> to be native now than it used to be: fewer people are trying to learn
> it deliberately, & the media no longer promote it.  Furthermore, very
> few speakers of RP have this labialized /r/.
>
> Anyway, coming back to the point of the thread:--- what's the
> difference between a natural lablialized /r/ & an affected one?

Affectation.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 10, 2013, 9:28:31 AM1/10/13
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Wed, 9 Jan 2013 10:38:04 -0800 (PST): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> schreef/wrote:

>> http://rudhar.com/fonetics/ionyen.htm

>It further transpired that you were talking about Jack Klugman and
>Tony Randall.

Who is Jack Klugman? How could I have been talking about him if I
don't know who he is?

>I suppose you're not familiar with their work, but they
>very definitely both played specific types, and the accents they
>ADOPTED FOR THE CHARACTERS THEY PORTRAYED need have nothing whatsoever
>to do with any actual accent or with their own native speech.

So? Did I suggest that then?

>Most likely, you were talking about *Grumpy Old Men* (or its sequel),

What gives you that idea? Never heard of that either, never wrote
about it.

>which was an exploitation of the relationship of their characters in
>the TV verson of *The Odd Couple* (which they presumably could not
>reprise without paying immense licensing fees to Neil Simon).

I did not write about any TV version. I wrote about a 1968 film
(movie, in your dialect).

>Maybe you heard a clip of Jack Klugman in his obitiaries last week. Go
>check out _all_ his movies to maybe get an idea of his range.

Only, maybe, if you first, finally read my little article before
commenting on it any further. It's so much easier and more effecient
that way.

Ruud Harmsen

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Jan 10, 2013, 9:31:52 AM1/10/13