about PIE kinship (H)ter words

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Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 17, 2019, 4:27:49 PM9/17/19
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I've written something on Academia and I dare think it might be of some interest:

as regards the kinship suffix -(H)ter, there's an interesting word in Hurrian, which -as you probably remember- I consider is an Indo-European language.
The word is pedari, pidari "bull". A possible proto-form is *p(e)H1-d(h)r- and further comparanda (like Arabic fih.l "stallion") suggests that the root has something to do with male procreation. Alternation between e /i is consistent with *eH1 / (zero-grade) *H1
My guess about all these kinship words, pater, mater, bhrater, etc is that several of them originally applied to animals: pater = the one who f*ks, mater = the one who breastfeeds, bhrater = one of the batch, etc.
Now, there's a little hitch because Hurrian is consistent with *H1 while pater, according to Greek, tends to bar this laryngeal, unless we admit that (1) either Greek <a> can stand for *H1 between stops or (2) some intense leveling occurred in that group of words. I don't know if we have other cases of zero-grade laryngeals between stops in Greek. (Help anyone?)
So it's possible Post-Anatolian created a whole set of words starting from a few existing words like *dhugHter and *peH1-d(h)r-.
Anyway, we already have truly PIE words:
*atta- "father"
*awo- "father's father, father's brother"
*nara "mother', also diminutive *nana
*sw(e)Hn- "son", "brother" in Hurrian sen(n)i.
According to Hurrian H is *H1.
The kinship -(H)ter words are clearly a specific creation of the Post-Anatolian branch.
Note that *dhug- has a comparandum in Hatti= tuh
And as a last word, I will repeat that we can't keep on having a fancy "Indo-European" word that does not have a clear perimeter and a fraudulent Improved-Proto-Sanskrit model, that is supposed to represent PIE but obviously does not.
Now, of course, we can also stick to a fancy ball-and-cups trick and a fraudulent model, that screws all attempts at external comparison... but it'll be "we" without me.

Daud Deden

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Sep 17, 2019, 7:36:32 PM9/17/19
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ductile/daughter/doctor bloodline

skpf...@gmail.com

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Sep 17, 2019, 8:14:03 PM9/17/19
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On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 4:27:49 PM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
nobody takes you seriously, since you have a horse in the race (Anatolian).

Anatolian does not have IE words for the most basic kinship terms.

Husband {pati], Wife [patni] father [pitr], mother [matr], son [sunu],
daughter {duhitr], brother[bhratr], sister [svasr].

If you make Hittite your fetish analogous to Hindutvas and Sanskrit - to paraphrase Gordon Gekko of the movie "Wall Street" "that's a dog with different fleas".

you are presenting a very dishonest picture of Hittite kinship terms.

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 18, 2019, 12:29:35 AM9/18/19
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Le mercredi 18 septembre 2019 02:14:03 UTC+2, skpf...@gmail.com a écrit :
> On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 4:27:49 PM UTC-4, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
> > I've written something on Academia and I dare think it might be of some interest:
> >
> > as regards the kinship suffix -(H)ter, there's an interesting word in Hurrian, which -as you probably remember- I consider is an Indo-European language.
> > The word is pedari, pidari "bull". A possible proto-form is *p(e)H1-d(h)r- and further comparanda (like Arabic fih.l "stallion") suggests that the root has something to do with male procreation. Alternation between e /i is consistent with *eH1 / (zero-grade) *H1
> > My guess about all these kinship words, pater, mater, bhrater, etc is that several of them originally applied to animals: pater = the one who f*ks, mater = the one who breastfeeds, bhrater = one of the batch, etc.
> > Now, there's a little hitch because Hurrian is consistent with *H1 while pater, according to Greek, tends to bar this laryngeal, unless we admit that (1) either Greek <a> can stand for *H1 between stops or (2) some intense leveling occurred in that group of words. I don't know if we have other cases of zero-grade laryngeals between stops in Greek. (Help anyone?)
> > So it's possible Post-Anatolian created a whole set of words starting from a few existing words like *dhugHter and *peH1-d(h)r-.
> > Anyway, we already have truly PIE words:
> > *atta- "father"
> > *awo- "father's father, father's brother"
> > *nara "mother', also diminutive *nana
> > *sw(e)Hn- "son", "brother" in Hurrian sen(n)i.
> > According to Hurrian H is *H1.
> > The kinship -(H)ter words are clearly a specific creation of the Post-Anatolian branch.
> > Note that *dhug- has a comparandum in Hatti= tuh
> > And as a last word, I will repeat that we can't keep on having a fancy "Indo-European" word that does not have a clear perimeter and a fraudulent Improved-Proto-Sanskrit model, that is supposed to represent PIE but obviously does not.
> > Now, of course, we can also stick to a fancy ball-and-cups trick and a fraudulent model, that screws all attempts at external comparison... but it'll be "we" without me.
>
> nobody takes you seriously, since you have a horse in the race (Anatolian).
>
> Anatolian does not have IE words for the most basic kinship terms.

Very badly worded.
The issue is that these Hter kinship words are *not* Indo-European, as shown by their near complete absence in Anatolian.

>
> Husband {pati], Wife [patni] father [pitr], mother [matr], son [sunu],
> daughter {duhitr], brother[bhratr], sister [svasr].
>
> If you make Hittite your fetish analogous to Hindutvas and Sanskrit - to paraphrase Gordon Gekko of the movie "Wall Street" "that's a dog with different fleas".
>
> you are presenting a very dishonest picture of Hittite kinship terms.

I don't really understand what this sentence refers to.
What is your honest picture of Hittite kinship terms?

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 18, 2019, 3:36:13 AM9/18/19
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In the light of Magdalenian, pater goes back to PAD TYR, activity of feet PAD
to overcome in the double sense of rule and give TYR, the father was then
the one who goes ahead and overcomes obstacles, also, as a Stone Age hunter,
animals that serve as food for his family and tribe. The compound allows a lot
of overformings, maybe also in your sense.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 18, 2019, 4:23:22 PM9/18/19
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- Cave art gives us no clue to how the people of Lascaux or Altamira
spoke.

- The pictographic symbols in Göbekli Tepe give us no clue to how the
people of Göbekli Tepe spoke.

- Anyone stating the opposite must make available some evidence that
can be scrutinized by other scholars, and the clues this person claims
to have found, must be observable and recognizable by other people.

- Moreover, the discoverer must be able to explain, in commonsense
logical terms, how he or she has arrived at his results. His chain of
conclusions must be "nachvollzogen" by other scholars.

- You have not been able to present us with either evidence or
conclusions. Instead, you have repeatedly attacked and poured scorn
over people who have demanded such things.

- On the other hand, PIE is based on solid evidence and its proponents
have left us clear instructions, evidence, and reasonings to be
"nachvollzogen".

- Their conclusions are based on a comprehensive understanding and
comparison of the languages involved.

- On the other hand, you are demonstrably ignorant of several branches
of Indo-European. You have admitted that you know not a single Slavic
language.You actually pour scorn and disdain over people who have
learnt languages unknown to you.

skpf...@gmail.com

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Sep 18, 2019, 6:39:24 PM9/18/19
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the more parsimonious hypothesis is that Anatolian lost these IE words. "atta" ,"nana" etc. are nursery words - not candidates for comparative linguists.

Daud Deden

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Sep 18, 2019, 10:42:16 PM9/18/19
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True, but fine sources for Paleo-etymologists.

Franz Gnaedinger

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Sep 19, 2019, 3:05:54 AM9/19/19
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someone is mighty proud of his barren mind

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

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Sep 19, 2019, 3:37:18 AM9/19/19
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Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 19, 2019, 3:55:49 AM9/19/19
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No it's not "parsimonious".
Atta "father" is a very good word, strongly attested.
The word for "mother" is nara-, nana is a diminutive.
Atta and nara are not nursery words,
papa and mama are nursery words.
Can you see the difference?

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 19, 2019, 3:56:42 AM9/19/19
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Anything will do for your buffooneries.

skpf...@gmail.com

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Sep 19, 2019, 8:30:17 AM9/19/19
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this is the problem with historical lingustics - everything is driven by claims - there is no ground of reality underneath.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iW8SAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=atta+nursery+word&source=bl&ots=7uR3OAYWML&sig=ACfU3U0-AZQIm5bbWkw0JkiDslsG160bnQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCh9PU79zkAhWwmuAKHcbiCCQQ6AEwEXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=atta%20nursery%20word&f=false

page 53

'

Kluge,however,seemsto rejectthe interpretation" protector,defender,"and to see in the worda derivativefromthe " nature-sound" pa.So also Westermarck(166.86-94).In Gothic,presumablythe oldestof the Teutonicdialects,the mostcommonwordfor " father" is atta,still seenin the nameof the far-famedleaderof the Huns,Attila,i.e. " littlefather,"and in the dtti ofmodernSwissdialects.To thesamerootattachthemselvesSanskritatta,"mother,eldersister";Osseticadda,"littlefather(V aterchen)" ; Greekotto,Latinatta," father" ; OldSlavonicoti-ci,"littlefather";Old Irishaite,"foster-father."

Attabelongsto the categoryof " nature-words" or " nursery-words" ofwhichour dad (daddy) is also a member.

'

learnt something new = "attila" = "little father".

Arnaud Fournet

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Sep 19, 2019, 9:26:26 AM9/19/19
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so what, idiot?
you're a weathercock who believes he's incarnated intelligence.

Daud Deden

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Sep 19, 2019, 6:43:53 PM9/19/19
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Anyway, we already have truly PIE words:
> > > > > *atta- "father"
> > > > > *awo- "father's father, father's brother"

Uncertain, but maybe

*aho@Noomah(Commanche): grandfather
(Unless it is greeting ~ djambo)
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