Greek Pronoun - an answer
Valentini Kalfadopoulou Melas
> [snip]
> Actually, it is an emphatic form, rather than katharevousa only. I
> _think_ it is equally acceptable in either katharevousa or demotic.
> Not that you will find anyone speaking or writing new material in
> katharevousa today;)
The personal pronouns have "strong" and "weak" forms. So we say
ego eg Ego pao sxoleio
emena - mena eg Dose to s'emena (where s' = se) or Dose to se mena
emas - mas eg Pare to paketo apo emas or Pare to paketo apo mas
esi eg Esi pas sxoleio
esena - sena eg To gramma apo esena or To gramma apo sena
esas - sas eg Bres to s' esas or Bres to se sas
etc
The "e" is the weak letter and it has been so since ancient Greek.
eg.
ego
emou
eme (me) etc
You can find the two forms used liberally in spoken and written Greek.
As a side note : There are publications in Greece that still use the
Katharevousa and a lot of legal documentation still remains in that
format. As for who would use the more antiquated form let me just give
you an example : I grew up with the katharevousa (I am 30 years old) and
was using it in school until the time I went to junior high.
>>I don't think 'mou' can be right as this is a dative form (=
>>me).
After scavanging Google I found the original message and i do agree that
the "mou" example is DEFINETLY wrong (what book gave you that
suggestion? Papaloizos? Because that's the only book I can think with
the grossest mistakes EVER).In ancient Greek it would be
ego si ---
emou (mou) sou (sou) (ou)
emoi (moi) soi (soi) oi (oi)
eme (me) se (se) ---
On the second and third person the weaker form did not bear any accents.
(Ref. Tzartzanos Ancient Greek Grammar).
Of course in Modern Greek we "lost" some of these (and even more from
the plural forms of these pronouns).
Sometimes you can use the genitive form of the personal pronoun to
express the same thing as you would do with the accusative. For example:
Dos' mou to gramma -> Dose to gramma se mena
I hope I found the right message on Google and did not send a wrong
answer :) .....
Regarding "dia" and "gia" I will agree with Matthew.
Matthew ... any connection to S Johnson? If yes then accept my apologies
for an overdue personal answer to some of his questions.
Valentini
--
_______________________________________
Valentini Kalfadopoulou Mellas
Translator EN,FR, IT > GR
Instructor Greek Language @ Pima College
Emails:Vmelas@hotmail<<removethis>.com
Tony Vella
message requesting info on the correct pronoun to use after gia. My choices
for "do you have anything for me?" from different sources were:
exete tipote gia mou;
exete tipote gia mena;
exete tipote gia emena;
For introduction, may I say that I am an almost 60-year-old retiree and as a
hobby I am trying to learn to read and write - to a basic level sufficient
for an occasional short email - without going to language school which are
very expensive in Ottawa, Canada. So I bought a grammar, a dictionary and a
book of conjugated verbs and I am studying alone at home. I also bought a
used Teach Yourself Modern Greek book and found some typed pages inside it
with all sorts of translated short sentences. Two of the above are samples
of these short sentences. That's the whole story.
--
Tony Vella
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
"Valentini Kalfadopoulou Melas" <VMe...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3E2FCE0E...@cox.net...
Valentini Kalfadopoulou Melas
is concerned. I might be able to help you with exercises to practice and
a couple of beginner level corssword puzzles.
Valentini
Matthew Johnson
<VMe...@cox.net> wrote:
>Matthew Johnson wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Actually, it is an emphatic form, rather than katharevousa only.
[snip]
>As a side note : There are publications in Greece that still use the
>Katharevousa and a lot of legal documentation still remains in that
>format. As for who would use the more antiquated form let me just give
>you an example : I grew up with the katharevousa (I am 30 years old) and
>was using it in school until the time I went to junior high.
I guess Browning was being too optimistic then, when he said
katharevousa was already dead. He clearly considers it an artificial
construct that deserves to fade away and be replaced by Demotic.
> >>I don't think 'mou' can be right as this is a dative form (=
> >>me).
>
>After scavanging Google I found the original message and i do agree that
>the "mou" example is DEFINETLY wrong (what book gave you that
>suggestion?
I have no idea where the OP got that.
> Papaloizos? Because that's the only book I can think with
>the grossest mistakes EVER).In ancient Greek it would be
>ego si ---
>emou (mou) sou (sou) (ou)
>emoi (moi) soi (soi) oi (oi)
>eme (me) se (se) ---
>
>On the second and third person the weaker form did not bear any accents.
>(Ref. Tzartzanos Ancient Greek Grammar).
>
>Of course in Modern Greek we "lost" some of these (and even more from
>the plural forms of these pronouns).
>
>Sometimes you can use the genitive form of the personal pronoun to
>express the same thing as you would do with the accusative.
But you woud not use the accusative there. You would use accusative +
preposition.
> For example:
>Dos' mou to gramma -> Dose to gramma se mena
Which example does not 'express the same thing as with the
accusative', since the accusative requires a preposition, but the
genitive does not.
A slight change of your original wording would remove all these
objectsions: perhaps you really meant to write:
>Sometimes you can use the genitive form of the personal pronoun to
>express the same thing as you would do with a preposition + accusative.
>I hope I found the right message on Google and did not send a wrong
>answer :) .....
Looks good here...
>Regarding "dia" and "gia" I will agree with Matthew.
I figured you would, since it was unlikely I had misread Browning that
badly;) But I must admit: I _still_ haven't got over the shock of
learning that all prespositions take the accusative in Modern Greek.
All that effort I took to learn when to use EPI+dative, when +acc.
when +genitive, and you moderns have tossed all this distinction into
the dustbin of history;)
>Matthew ... any connection to S Johnson? If yes then accept my apologies
>for an overdue personal answer to some of his questions.
No. I don't know who S Johnson is.
Matthew Johnson
<tony....@nogo.rogers.com> wrote:
> I also bought a
>used Teach Yourself Modern Greek book and found some typed pages inside it
>with all sorts of translated short sentences.
I have used other books in the Teach Yourself series before. They are
usually quite complete, which is remarkable in such short books, but
precisely _because_ they are so compact, they can be difficult to
understand. They give too few exercises, too.
> Two of the above are samples
>of these short sentences.
Now when you say 'typed pages', do you mean typed pages that were
stuffed in between the printed pages of the book? If so, it sounds
like whoever typed them just got it wrong.
I certainly hope you don't mean that the Teach Yourself book gave that
first sentence!
[snip]
mb
...
> >Sometimes you can use the genitive form of the personal pronoun to
> >express the same thing as you would do with the accusative.
> But you woud not use the accusative there. You would use accusative +
> preposition.
>
> > For example:
>
> >Dos' mou to gramma -> Dose to gramma se mena
> Which example does not 'express the same thing as with the
> accusative', since the accusative requires a preposition, but the
> genitive does not.
Not necessarily. Northern and Eastern people whose dialect does not
use the "dative genitive" but the accusative, with or without
preposition, are sometimes uncomfortable with the "dos mou"
construction, when at home they say "dos me". So "dos' eména[ne]" is a
form you'll hear. In Southern speech it is not uncommon either; it's
then mainly an emphatic form. In the speech of Constantinople,
Salonica etc. one wouldn't use a preposition in forms like "ton édosa"
(which corresponds to Southern "tou édosa").
...
> I _still_ haven't got over the shock of
> learning that all prespositions take the accusative in Modern Greek.
> All that effort I took to learn when to use EPI+dative, when +acc.
> when +genitive, and you moderns have tossed all this distinction into
> the dustbin of history;)
With some (learned) exceptions. Moderns also do quote ancients. As for
the dustbin, katharevousa is safely there in the sense that it is not
needed at all for daily life in Greece. Even if your occupation or
hobbies require the reading of it no one, to my knowledge, has to
write it.
A well-written summary description, more detailed than Browning and
more up-to-date than Thumb etc. is available. I'm sure you're aware of
it. If not: Geoffrey C. Horrocks. Greek: A History of the Language and
Its Speakers (Longman Linguistics Library) Addison-Wesley Pub Co (June
1997)ASIN: 0582307090.