noch nicht...als
UC
"wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wußte man noch nicht anders zu
dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
Not quite sure how this noch nicht works here:
"There are legends and images from early man(?), these actual scenes
of nature – at that time one knew not yet other than to tell tales and
to paint, than because one saw in things something."
(Nietzsche, 1880s)
Is anyone able to help me?
Ekkehard Dengler
> - es sind die Dichtungen und Gem�lde der Urmenschheit, diese
> "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wu�te man noch nicht anders zu
> dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
>
> Not quite sure how this noch nicht works here:
>
> "There are legends and images from early man(?), these actual scenes
> of nature � at that time one knew not yet other than to tell tales and
> to paint, than because one saw in things something."
>
> (Nietzsche, 1880s)
>
> Is anyone able to help me?
I haven't got much time, but what I can tell you is that "anders ..., als
indem" means "... other than by".
Regards,
Ekkehard
UC
> > "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wußte man noch nicht anders zu
> > dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
>
> > Not quite sure how this noch nicht works here:
>
> > "There are legends and images from early man(?), these actual scenes
> > of nature – at that time one knew not yet other than to tell tales and
> > to paint, than because one saw in things something."
>
> > (Nietzsche, 1880s)
>
> > Is anyone able to help me?
>
> I haven't got much time, but what I can tell you is that "anders ..., als
> indem" means "... other than by".
>
> Regards,
> Ekkehard
I wasn't sure...I was thinking along those lines too...but could not
fit everything together..
Leslie Danks
> - es sind die Dichtungen und Gem�lde der Urmenschheit, diese
> "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wu�te man noch nicht anders zu
> dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
>
> Not quite sure how this noch nicht works here:
>
> "There are legends and images from early man(?), these actual scenes
> of nature ? at that time one knew not yet other than to tell tales and
> to paint, than because one saw in things something."
>
> (Nietzsche, 1880s)
>
> Is anyone able to help me?
What about:
- there are the legends and paintings of prehistoric man,
these "realistic" scenes of nature; at that time, the only known approach
to story-telling and painting was to look a little way inside the
subjects.
--
Les (BrE)
UC
> > "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wußte man noch nicht anders zu
> > dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
>
> > Not quite sure how this noch nicht works here:
>
> > "There are legends and images from early man(?), these actual scenes
> > of nature ? at that time one knew not yet other than to tell tales and
> > to paint, than because one saw in things something."
>
> > (Nietzsche, 1880s)
>
> > Is anyone able to help me?
>
> What about:
>
> - there are the legends and paintings of prehistoric man,
> these "realistic" scenes of nature; at that time, the only known approach
> to story-telling and painting was to look a little way inside the
> subjects.
>
> --
> Les (BrE)
Thanks!
clicl...@freenet.de
Leslie Danks schrieb:
I am reading here something like this:
- they are the legends and paintings of ancient mankind, these "true"
scenes of nature - the story-tellers and painters of that time still
could not but perceive something beyond the immediate subjects.
Context is needed to confirm this reading of "[etwas in ein Ding]
hineinsehen".
Martin.
UC
> > > "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wußte man noch nicht anders zu
> > > dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
>
> > > Not quite sure how this noch nicht works here:
>
> > > "There are legends and images from early man(?), these actual scenes
> > > of nature ? at that time one knew not yet other than to tell tales and
> > > to paint, than because one saw in things something."
>
> > > (Nietzsche, 1880s)
>
> > > Is anyone able to help me?
>
> > What about:
>
> > - there are the legends and paintings of prehistoric man,
> > these "realistic" scenes of nature; at that time, the only known
> > approach to story-telling and painting was to look a little way
> > inside the subjects.
>
> I am reading here something like this:
>
> - they are the legends and paintings of ancient mankind, these "true"
> scenes of nature - the story-tellers and painters of that time still
> could not but perceive something beyond the immediate subjects.
>
> Context is needed to confirm this reading of "[etwas in ein Ding]
> hineinsehen".
>
> Martin.
Here's the whole bit:
Meine Aufgabe: alle die Schönheit und Erhabenheit, die wir den Dingen
und den Einbildungen geliehen, zurückfordern als Eigenthum und
Erzeugniß des Menschen und als schönsten Schmuck, schönste Apologie
dessen. Der Mensch als Dichter, als Denker, als Gott, als Macht, als
Mitleid. O über seine königliche Freigebigkeit, womit er die Dinge
beschenkt hat, um sich zu verarmen und elend zu fühlen! Das ist seine
größte "Selbstlosigkeit", wie er bewundert und anbetet und nicht weiß
und wissen will, daß er schuf, was er bewundert. - es sind die
Dichtungen und Gemälde der Urmenschheit, diese "wirklichen"
Naturscenen - damals wußte man noch nicht anders zu dichten und zu
malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah. Und diese Erbschaft
haben wir gemacht. - Es ist diese erhabene Linie, die Gefühl von
trauernder Größe, dies Gefühl des bewegten Meeres alles erdichtet von
unseren Vorfahren. Dieses Fest- und Bestimmtsehen überhaupt!
UC
>
> Meine Aufgabe: alle die Schönheit und Erhabenheit, die wir den Dingen
> und den Einbildungen geliehen, zurückfordern als Eigenthum und
> Erzeugniß des Menschen und als schönsten Schmuck, schönste Apologie
> dessen. Der Mensch als Dichter, als Denker, als Gott, als Macht, als
> Mitleid. O über seine königliche Freigebigkeit, womit er die Dinge
> beschenkt hat, um sich zu verarmen und elend zu fühlen! Das ist seine
> größte "Selbstlosigkeit", wie er bewundert und anbetet und nicht weiß
> und wissen will, daß er schuf, was er bewundert. -
My mission: All the beauty and sublimity which we have ascribed* to
real and imagined things, I will reclaim as the property and product
of man, and this should be his finest jewel and apology. Man as poet,
as thinker, as god, as power, as mercy. Oh, the regal liberality with
which he has lavished gifts upon things in order to impoverish himself
and make himself feel wretched! This has been his greatest act of
disowning, that he admired and worshipped, and knew how to conceal
from himself, that it was he who had created what he admired.
Evertjan.
>
> Leslie Danks schrieb:
>>
>> UC wrote:
>>
>> > - es sind die Dichtungen und Gem�lde der Urmenschheit, diese
>> > "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wu�te man noch nicht anders zu
>> > dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
>
> I am reading here something like this:
>
> - they are the legends and paintings of ancient mankind, these "true"
> scenes of nature - the story-tellers and painters of that time still
> could not but perceive something beyond the immediate subjects.
skip the "but", it wrongly inverts the meaning
exchange "still..not" with "not yet"
and "not...something" must be "not...anything".
... the story-tellers and painters of that time couldn't yet perceive
anything beyond what was directly visible.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
UC
- es sind die Dichtungen und Gemälde der Urmenschheit, diese
"wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wußte man noch nicht anders zu
dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
... the story-tellers and painters of that time couldn't yet perceive
anything beyond what was directly visible.
???
Evertjan:
I seem to get the impression that Nietzsche is saying that the
primordial
humans could not BUT inject something into things. Otherwise,
wouldn't
it have read something like this:
"- es sind die Dichtungen und Gemälde der Urmenschheit, diese
"wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wußte man noch nicht anders zu
dichten und zu malen, als was man sah. "
Evertjan.
>
> - es sind die Dichtungen und Gem�lde der Urmenschheit, diese
> "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wu�te man noch nicht anders zu
> dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
>
> ... the story-tellers and painters of that time couldn't yet perceive
> anything beyond what was directly visible.
>
> ???
>
> Evertjan:
>
> I seem to get the impression that Nietzsche is saying that the
> primordial
> humans could not BUT inject something into things. Otherwise,
> wouldn't
> it have read something like this:
>
> "- es sind die Dichtungen und Gem�lde der Urmenschheit, diese
> "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wu�te man noch nicht anders zu
> dichten und zu malen, als was man sah. "
I see your point.
... the story-tellers and painters of that time could not describe their
perception of reality without including their concept of what hey
visualized to be just below that.
Leslie Danks
> wrote on 22 dec 2009 in sci.lang.translation:
>
>>
>> Leslie Danks schrieb:
No he didn't. You have messed up your attributions.
>>> UC wrote:
>>>
>>> > - es sind die Dichtungen und Gem�lde der Urmenschheit, diese
>>> > "wirklichen" Naturscenen - damals wu�te man noch nicht anders zu
>>> > dichten und zu malen, als indem man in die Dinge etwas hineinsah.
>
>>
>> I am reading here something like this:
>>
>> - they are the legends and paintings of ancient mankind, these "true"
>> scenes of nature - the story-tellers and painters of that time still
>> could not but perceive something beyond the immediate subjects.
>
> skip the "but", it wrongly inverts the meaning
>
> exchange "still..not" with "not yet"
>
> and "not...something" must be "not...anything".
>
> ... the story-tellers and painters of that time couldn't yet perceive
> anything beyond what was directly visible.
>
>
--
Les (BrE)
clicl...@freenet.de
UC schrieb:
>
> The first part is already finished:
> >
> > und den Einbildungen geliehen, zur�ckfordern als Eigenthum und
> > Erzeugni� des Menschen und als sch�nsten Schmuck, sch�nste Apologie
> > dessen. Der Mensch als Dichter, als Denker, als Gott, als Macht, als
> > beschenkt hat, um sich zu verarmen und elend zu f�hlen! Das ist seine
> > gr��te "Selbstlosigkeit", wie er bewundert und anbetet und nicht wei�
> > und wissen will, da� er schuf, was er bewundert. -
>
> My mission: All the beauty and sublimity which we have ascribed* to
> real and imagined things, I will reclaim as the property and product
> of man, and this should be his finest jewel and apology. Man as poet,
> as thinker, as god, as power, as mercy. Oh, the regal liberality with
> which he has lavished gifts upon things in order to impoverish himself
> and make himself feel wretched! This has been his greatest act of
> disowning, that he admired and worshipped, and knew how to conceal
> from himself, that it was he who had created what he admired.
A literal translation "All the beauty and sublimity that we have
bestowed on real and imagined things" wouldn't need no footnote. The
phrase "and this should be ..." in the original simply reads "and as
...". Better keep the quotes around "disowning", which should perhaps
more accurately be "selflessness". The phrase "und nicht wei� und wissen
will, da� ..." is simply "and neither knows nor wants to know that ...".
Martin.
UC
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The first part is already finished:
>
> > > und den Einbildungen geliehen, zurückfordern als Eigenthum und
> > > dessen. Der Mensch als Dichter, als Denker, als Gott, als Macht, als
> > > beschenkt hat, um sich zu verarmen und elend zu fühlen! Das ist seine
> > > größte "Selbstlosigkeit", wie er bewundert und anbetet und nicht weiß
>
> > My mission: All the beauty and sublimity which we have ascribed* to
> > real and imagined things, I will reclaim as the property and product
> > of man, and this should be his finest jewel and apology. Man as poet,
> > as thinker, as god, as power, as mercy. Oh, the regal liberality with
> > which he has lavished gifts upon things in order to impoverish himself
> > and make himself feel wretched! This has been his greatest act of
> > disowning, that he admired and worshipped, and knew how to conceal
> > from himself, that it was he who had created what he admired.
>
> A literal translation "All the beauty and sublimity that we have
> bestowed on real and imagined things" wouldn't need no footnote. The
> phrase "and this should be ..." in the original simply reads "and as
> ...". Better keep the quotes around "disowning", which should perhaps
> will, daß ..." is simply "and neither knows nor wants to know that ...".
>
> Martin.
Thanks, Martin!
UC
> The phrase "und nicht weiß und wissen
> will, daß ..." is simply "and neither knows nor wants to know that ...".
>
> Martin.
This is an old translation that I'm trying to modify. Some parts I
leave in for the sake of....well not changing it if it isn't actually
wrong. So, even if the translation isn't exactly what you would do, if
it serves to keep the flavor of the original, I don't modify it.