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establish a difference – exact meaning?
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Helmut Richter
Feb 28, 2021, 9:16:26 AM2/28/21
to
I'd need some help in understanding an English sentence which deals with a
language issue. I know each word but it might be to be ambiguous in its
meaning, and native speakers could be of some help.
I start with two idioms before quoting to sentence in its context.
“fail to do sth”: according to COD, it means “try to do without success”,
“be unable to do”. My impression is, however, that it is often used in the
simple meaning “don't do” with no connontaion of an unability. Is this
correct?
“establish a difference”: I would understand it as “draw a distinction,
discern, discriminate”, rather than “perceive, notice, realize a
difference”. This is the key point of my question.
Now the context. Some L2 students of a language are not taught about a
subtle difference in the pronunciation of similar-looking words, so they
will pronounce them in the same way. However, in careful pronunciation,
there would be a difference. This situation is described with the words:
They fail to establish a difference on which no stress is laid in
language education.
At first sight, it means to me in this context:
They do not pronounce the words differently because they are not taught
to, or not insistantly enough. (Nothing is said about whether they may
have noticed the difference.)
Could that sentence also mean that they do not perceive/notice/realize the
difference rather than they do not reproduce it?
Well, the net effect on language education for these students is the same
in both cases. But I want to understand in the first place what the author
wrote.
--
Helmut Richter
language issue. I know each word but it might be to be ambiguous in its
meaning, and native speakers could be of some help.
I start with two idioms before quoting to sentence in its context.
“fail to do sth”: according to COD, it means “try to do without success”,
“be unable to do”. My impression is, however, that it is often used in the
simple meaning “don't do” with no connontaion of an unability. Is this
correct?
“establish a difference”: I would understand it as “draw a distinction,
discern, discriminate”, rather than “perceive, notice, realize a
difference”. This is the key point of my question.
Now the context. Some L2 students of a language are not taught about a
subtle difference in the pronunciation of similar-looking words, so they
will pronounce them in the same way. However, in careful pronunciation,
there would be a difference. This situation is described with the words:
They fail to establish a difference on which no stress is laid in
language education.
At first sight, it means to me in this context:
They do not pronounce the words differently because they are not taught
to, or not insistantly enough. (Nothing is said about whether they may
have noticed the difference.)
Could that sentence also mean that they do not perceive/notice/realize the
difference rather than they do not reproduce it?
Well, the net effect on language education for these students is the same
in both cases. But I want to understand in the first place what the author
wrote.
--
Helmut Richter
Hen Hanna
May 20, 2022, 10:14:16 AM5/20/22
to
> “fail to do sth”: according to COD, it means “try to do without success”,
> “be unable to do”. My impression is, however, that it is often used in the
> simple meaning “don't do” with no connontaion of an unability. Is this correct?
maybe often it's used casually in an arrogant (condescending) way.... the writer says something like [Students fail to realize....] and the writer is (metaphorically) shaking his head.
______________________
> They fail to establish a difference on which no stress is laid in
> language education.
i'd want to read (see) the whole paragraph. HH
Helmut Richter
May 24, 2022, 4:29:15 AM5/24/22
to
> (hello... i just found this today.)
> > “fail to do sth”: according to COD, it means “try to do without success”,
> > “be unable to do”. My impression is, however, that it is often used in the
> > simple meaning “don't do” with no connontaion of an unability. Is this correct?
> i agree with the dictionary-def and not you impression, but maybe often
> it's used casually in an arrogant (condescending) way.... the writer says
> something like [Students fail to realize....] and the writer is
> (metaphorically) shaking his head.
That is, in addition to “try to do without success” and “be unable to do” the
> > “fail to do sth”: according to COD, it means “try to do without success”,
> > “be unable to do”. My impression is, however, that it is often used in the
> > simple meaning “don't do” with no connontaion of an unability. Is this correct?
> i agree with the dictionary-def and not you impression, but maybe often
> it's used casually in an arrogant (condescending) way.... the writer says
> something like [Students fail to realize....] and the writer is
> (metaphorically) shaking his head.
meaning is sometimes “should do but don't do”.
> what's the particular example here?
Swahili. The context is:
As a matter of fact, there appears to be a general tendency to connect
aspiration with stress and with initial position, e.g. [...]
The blurring of the contrast between aspirate and non-aspirate is
consequently probably ascribable to the following causes:
(a) [...]
(b) [...]
(c) [...]
(d) the growing influence of the numerous non-native speakers who fail to
establish a difference on which no stress is laid in Swahili language
education in any case.
(Edgar Polomé: Swahili Language Handbook. Center for Applied Linguistics,
Washington, 1967, p. 41)
--
Helmut Richter
Hen Hanna
May 24, 2022, 8:23:31 PM5/24/22
to
there is a contrast... and this Contrast is prob. not a [Minimal Pair] situation
because... any [Minimal Pair] would be stressed in Swahili language education.
so maybe it's like ... More aspiration at Word-initial : Pact vs. Impact
______________
one of the suspected causes ( of blurring of the contrast between aspirate and non-aspirate )
is (d)
numerous non-native speakers who (do not / can not)
make (realize) this Contrast
--------- because there's no emphasis (focus) on the Contrast
in Swahili language (education) classrooms
so, i'm not really saying anything about THE crucial point of [fail to]
(maybe i'll think of something later). HH
Hen Hanna
May 24, 2022, 8:38:36 PM5/24/22
to
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 5:23:31 PM UTC-7, Hen Hanna wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 1:29:15 AM UTC-7, Helmut Richter wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 May 2022, Hen Hanna wrote:
> >
> > > On Sunday, February 28, 2021 at 6:16:26 AM UTC-8, Helmut Richter wrote:
> >
> > > > I'd need some help in understanding an English sentence which deals with a
> > > > language issue. I know each word but it might be to be ambiguous in its
> > > > meaning, and native speakers could be of some help.
> > > >
> > > > I start with two idioms before quoting to sentence in its context.
> > > >
> > > > “fail to do sth”: according to COD, it means “try to do without success”,
> > > > “be unable to do”. My impression is, however, that it is often used in the
> > > > simple meaning “don't do” with no connontaion of an unability. Is this
> > > > correct?
so it seems i 'm agreeing with your impression (after all) for the passage
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 1:29:15 AM UTC-7, Helmut Richter wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 May 2022, Hen Hanna wrote:
> >
> > > On Sunday, February 28, 2021 at 6:16:26 AM UTC-8, Helmut Richter wrote:
> >
> > > > I'd need some help in understanding an English sentence which deals with a
> > > > language issue. I know each word but it might be to be ambiguous in its
> > > > meaning, and native speakers could be of some help.
> > > >
> > > > I start with two idioms before quoting to sentence in its context.
> > > >
> > > > “fail to do sth”: according to COD, it means “try to do without success”,
> > > > “be unable to do”. My impression is, however, that it is often used in the
> > > > simple meaning “don't do” with no connontaion of an unability. Is this
> > > > correct?
The students are NOT (even) trying to make that distinction (Contrast)
but some of them do anyway (by luck, by Knack, by above-average intuition or ability)
sheena
May 25, 2022, 8:26:52 AM5/25/22
to
Hi, Helmut - I agree with your suppositions.
“Fail to do” can be used as “do not do.” Ex: “She failed to do her homework” can mean she simply did not do her homework. Her failure had nothing to do with intent or ability.
As for “not establishing a difference,” I don’t think the text - in the portions that were quoted - have sufficient information to deduce why the students fail to pronounce certain sounds correctly - whether it is because they were not taught the distinctions or they did not pick up on the subtleties or some other similar reason.
“Fail to do” can be used as “do not do.” Ex: “She failed to do her homework” can mean she simply did not do her homework. Her failure had nothing to do with intent or ability.
As for “not establishing a difference,” I don’t think the text - in the portions that were quoted - have sufficient information to deduce why the students fail to pronounce certain sounds correctly - whether it is because they were not taught the distinctions or they did not pick up on the subtleties or some other similar reason.
Hen Hanna
May 25, 2022, 10:00:20 AM5/25/22
to
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 5:26:52 AM UTC-7, sheena wrote:
> Hi, Helmut - I agree with your suppositions.
>
> “Fail to do” can be used as “do not do.” Ex: “She failed to do her homework” can mean she simply did not do her homework. Her failure had nothing to do with intent or ability.
>
i agree and i think of it as a Modality-Marker
> Hi, Helmut - I agree with your suppositions.
>
> “Fail to do” can be used as “do not do.” Ex: “She failed to do her homework” can mean she simply did not do her homework. Her failure had nothing to do with intent or ability.
>
1. She didn't do the homework
2. it's bad (that She didn't do the homework) = Modality
As for “establishing a difference,” i think it betrays an effort to avoid the expression [make a difference]
------------------- [establish a difference] is a common way to avoid it.
___________________________
(Forbes) The Bamboo Strategy: Practical New Tools To Replace Porter ...
.................. ... strategy remains Michael Porter's 1985 competitive advantage theory encouraging companies “to establish a difference and preserve it”.
.Jul 8, 2021
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