Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
body proper (D. Siegel)
193 views
Skip to first unread message
alberto...@gmail.com
Apr 18, 2013, 5:35:06 AM4/18/13
to
Hi,
I have a problem in understanding the meaning of " body proper" in the following passage taken from The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel:
Studies have repeatedly revealed that the parts of the brain most implicated in these studies vary but generally include integrative regions that link cortex, limbic area, brainstem, body proper, and social inputs from other brains
I've seen that "body" in English may refer also to "the main part of a person’s or animal’s body, not including the head, arms, or legs", but I don't think this is the case...
Do you think it could be possible to paraphrase "body proper" as "the other parts of the body"? I think that also cortex, limbic area ec. are part of the body
Thanks in advance for any hint!
I have a problem in understanding the meaning of " body proper" in the following passage taken from The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel:
Studies have repeatedly revealed that the parts of the brain most implicated in these studies vary but generally include integrative regions that link cortex, limbic area, brainstem, body proper, and social inputs from other brains
I've seen that "body" in English may refer also to "the main part of a person’s or animal’s body, not including the head, arms, or legs", but I don't think this is the case...
Do you think it could be possible to paraphrase "body proper" as "the other parts of the body"? I think that also cortex, limbic area ec. are part of the body
Thanks in advance for any hint!
Lanarcam
Apr 18, 2013, 2:23:02 PM4/18/13
to
Le 18/04/2013 11:35, alberto...@gmail.com a �crit :
> Hi,
> I have a problem in understanding the meaning of " body proper" in the following passage taken from The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel:
>
>
> Studies have repeatedly revealed that the parts of the brain most implicated in these studies vary but generally include integrative regions that link cortex, limbic area, brainstem, body proper, and social inputs from other brains
>
>
> I've seen that "body" in English may refer also to "the main part of a person�s or animal�s body, not including the head, arms, or legs", but I don't think this is the case...
> I have a problem in understanding the meaning of " body proper" in the following passage taken from The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel:
>
>
> Studies have repeatedly revealed that the parts of the brain most implicated in these studies vary but generally include integrative regions that link cortex, limbic area, brainstem, body proper, and social inputs from other brains
>
>
>
> Do you think it could be possible to paraphrase "body proper" as "the other parts of the body"? I think that also cortex, limbic area ec. are part of the body
>
I read it as the (rest of) the body which is under control of the brain.
> Do you think it could be possible to paraphrase "body proper" as "the other parts of the body"? I think that also cortex, limbic area ec. are part of the body
>
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Apr 18, 2013, 2:58:23 PM4/18/13
to
On 2013-04-18 18:23:02 +0000, Lanarcam said:
> Le 18/04/2013 11:35, alberto...@gmail.com a écrit :
>> Hi,
>> I have a problem in understanding the meaning of " body proper" in the
>> following passage taken from The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal
>> Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel:
>>
>>
>> Studies have repeatedly revealed that the parts of the brain most
>> implicated in these studies vary but generally include integrative
>> regions that link cortex, limbic area, brainstem, body proper, and
>> social inputs from other brains
>>
>>
>> I've seen that "body" in English may refer also to "the main part of a
>> person’s or animal’s body, not including the head, arms, or legs", but
in different contexts, and I've never come across "the body proper"
before. Physiologists define it precisely, and consider that only the
bits consisting of cells constitute the body, so, in particular, the
digestive tract is not part of the body. However, I don't think many
non-physiologists would define it like that. In this context I'd guess
that it means everything except the nervous system, but I'd be
surprised if that's accepted terminology.
--
athel
> Le 18/04/2013 11:35, alberto...@gmail.com a écrit :
>> Hi,
>> I have a problem in understanding the meaning of " body proper" in the
>> following passage taken from The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal
>> Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel:
>>
>>
>> Studies have repeatedly revealed that the parts of the brain most
>> implicated in these studies vary but generally include integrative
>> regions that link cortex, limbic area, brainstem, body proper, and
>> social inputs from other brains
>>
>>
>> I've seen that "body" in English may refer also to "the main part of a
>> I don't think this is the case...
>>
>> Do you think it could be possible to paraphrase "body proper" as "the
>> other parts of the body"? I think that also cortex, limbic area ec. are
>> part of the body
>>
> I read it as the (rest of) the body which is under control of the brain.
I don't find it at all clear, as "the body" is used in different ways
>>
>> Do you think it could be possible to paraphrase "body proper" as "the
>> other parts of the body"? I think that also cortex, limbic area ec. are
>> part of the body
>>
> I read it as the (rest of) the body which is under control of the brain.
in different contexts, and I've never come across "the body proper"
before. Physiologists define it precisely, and consider that only the
bits consisting of cells constitute the body, so, in particular, the
digestive tract is not part of the body. However, I don't think many
non-physiologists would define it like that. In this context I'd guess
that it means everything except the nervous system, but I'd be
surprised if that's accepted terminology.
--
athel
Alberto
Apr 19, 2013, 1:16:07 PM4/19/13
to
Thank you, Lanarcam and Athel, for your help....
It's really unclear...I've found that also other authors use this
expression in a seemingly similar way, as in Damasio:
Antonio Damasio - 2008 - 352 pagine
http://books.google.it/books?id=MRY3hmYc1W8C&pg=PT152&dq=cortex,+limbic+area,+brainstem,+%22body+proper%22,&hl=it&sa=X&ei=9WxxUbn4CpTH7AakpoH4Bw&ved=0CGoQ6AEwEA
It says for example: "the brain itself as it interacts with the body
proper and outside world"
It seems as though there were a difference between the brain and the
body proper...
ALSO HERE
Patrick Nolan - 2012 - 230 pagine
In refuting old distinctions, he finds that, 'It is the entire
organism rather than the body alone or the brain alone that interacts
with the environment ... When we see, or hear, or touch or taste or
smell, body proper and brain participate in the ...
COULD IT BE THAT SPECIALISTS MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN "BRAIN" AND
"BODY" IN THE SENSE THAT
MAYBE "BODY PROPER" IS MEANT AS "BODY AS A WHOLE" "IN GENERAL" WITHOUT
REFERRING TO THE INDIVIDUAL PARTS...
Thanks again!
Have a nice weekend!
Alberto
Traddict
Apr 27, 2013, 1:20:00 PM4/27/13
to
<alberto...@gmail.com> a �crit dans le message de groupe de discussion
: f12e9b72-cba8-4515...@googlegroups.com...
here, i.e. exclusive of all the other elements listed. Incidentally, in
French, the equivalent phrase would be "le corps proprement dit", which also
uses the French version of "proper", which is "propre."
: f12e9b72-cba8-4515...@googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
> I have a problem in understanding the meaning of " body proper" in the
> following passage taken from The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal
> Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel:
>
>
> Studies have repeatedly revealed that the parts of the brain most
> implicated in these studies vary but generally include integrative regions
> that link cortex, limbic area, brainstem, body proper, and social inputs
> from other brains
>
>
> I've seen that "body" in English may refer also to "the main part of a
> person�s or animal�s body, not including the head, arms, or legs", but I
> I have a problem in understanding the meaning of " body proper" in the
> following passage taken from The Pocket Guide to Interpersonal
> Neurobiology by Daniel Siegel:
>
>
> Studies have repeatedly revealed that the parts of the brain most
> implicated in these studies vary but generally include integrative regions
> that link cortex, limbic area, brainstem, body proper, and social inputs
> from other brains
>
>
> I've seen that "body" in English may refer also to "the main part of a
> don't think this is the case...
>
> Do you think it could be possible to paraphrase "body proper" as "the
> other parts of the body"? I think that also cortex, limbic area ec. are
> part of the body
>
> Thanks in advance for any hint!
"Body proper" should be understood as "the actual body" or "the body itself"
>
> Do you think it could be possible to paraphrase "body proper" as "the
> other parts of the body"? I think that also cortex, limbic area ec. are
> part of the body
>
> Thanks in advance for any hint!
here, i.e. exclusive of all the other elements listed. Incidentally, in
French, the equivalent phrase would be "le corps proprement dit", which also
uses the French version of "proper", which is "propre."
Alberto
Apr 28, 2013, 9:49:41 AM4/28/13
to
Thank you very much for your help!
Maybe the author wanted to stress "body" using "proper", because there may be a tendency to distinguish between "psychic"-related aspects (the brain) and all the other physical parts of the body (the body "proper").
Anyway, I feel I shouldn't stress this difference too much in the translation..I've seen that in other parts of the book,in similar contexts, the author sometimes uses simply "the body"..
Maybe, depending on the context, I could use "the other parts of the body" or simply "the body".
In Italian, too, we have the phrase "propriamente detto", but not "corpo proprio" in this sense.
I was wondering, though, whether it would sound "strange" to say: Il cervello e il corpo propriamente detto (the brain and the body proper). The reader may think: "but is the brain not part of the body?".
Maybe I could use more neutral forms: "il cervello e le altre parti del corpo" (The brain and the other parts of the body) or also "il cervello e il corpo" (the brain and the body)...that sounds less "marked".
Thanks again and have a nice Sunday!
Maybe the author wanted to stress "body" using "proper", because there may be a tendency to distinguish between "psychic"-related aspects (the brain) and all the other physical parts of the body (the body "proper").
Anyway, I feel I shouldn't stress this difference too much in the translation..I've seen that in other parts of the book,in similar contexts, the author sometimes uses simply "the body"..
Maybe, depending on the context, I could use "the other parts of the body" or simply "the body".
In Italian, too, we have the phrase "propriamente detto", but not "corpo proprio" in this sense.
I was wondering, though, whether it would sound "strange" to say: Il cervello e il corpo propriamente detto (the brain and the body proper). The reader may think: "but is the brain not part of the body?".
Maybe I could use more neutral forms: "il cervello e le altre parti del corpo" (The brain and the other parts of the body) or also "il cervello e il corpo" (the brain and the body)...that sounds less "marked".
Thanks again and have a nice Sunday!
Lanarcam
Apr 28, 2013, 9:55:58 AM4/28/13
to
In French, I would translate it as "le cerveau et le corps
proprement dit" which in Italian, from what you write could
be "Il cervello e il corpo propriamente detto". (I don't speak
a word of Italian).
I don't think you should read too much in that sentence, the
translation is there too convey the same meaning as in the
original text, not to explain it. The author probably wanted
to distinguish between the brain and the rest of the body, but
the fact that the brain belongs to the body is beyond the
point of translation, that's overtranslating.
Le 28/04/2013 15:49, Alberto a �crit :
proprement dit" which in Italian, from what you write could
be "Il cervello e il corpo propriamente detto". (I don't speak
a word of Italian).
I don't think you should read too much in that sentence, the
translation is there too convey the same meaning as in the
original text, not to explain it. The author probably wanted
to distinguish between the brain and the rest of the body, but
the fact that the brain belongs to the body is beyond the
point of translation, that's overtranslating.
Le 28/04/2013 15:49, Alberto a �crit :
Traddict
Apr 28, 2013, 12:55:54 PM4/28/13
to
"Alberto" <alberto...@gmail.com> a �crit dans le message de groupe de
discussion : 4db137c7-160a-4066...@googlegroups.com...
> Thank you very much for your help!
>
> Maybe the author wanted to stress "body" using "proper", because there may
> be a tendency to distinguish between "psychic"-related aspects (the brain)
> and all the other physical parts of the body (the body "proper").
>
> Anyway, I feel I shouldn't stress this difference too much in the
> translation..I've seen that in other parts of the book,in similar
> contexts, the author sometimes uses simply "the body"..
> Maybe, depending on the context, I could use "the other parts of the body"
> or simply "the body".
> In Italian, too, we have the phrase "propriamente detto", but not "corpo
> proprio" in this sense.
> I was wondering, though, whether it would sound "strange" to say: Il
> cervello e il corpo propriamente detto (the brain and the body proper).
> The reader may think: "but is the brain not part of the body?".
If I were you, I'd still settle for this, as the resulting strangeness
>
> Maybe the author wanted to stress "body" using "proper", because there may
> be a tendency to distinguish between "psychic"-related aspects (the brain)
> and all the other physical parts of the body (the body "proper").
>
> Anyway, I feel I shouldn't stress this difference too much in the
> translation..I've seen that in other parts of the book,in similar
> contexts, the author sometimes uses simply "the body"..
> Maybe, depending on the context, I could use "the other parts of the body"
> or simply "the body".
> In Italian, too, we have the phrase "propriamente detto", but not "corpo
> proprio" in this sense.
> I was wondering, though, whether it would sound "strange" to say: Il
> cervello e il corpo propriamente detto (the brain and the body proper).
> The reader may think: "but is the brain not part of the body?".
reflects that of the original, making it, paradoxically, a good translation.
Regards,
T
Alberto
Apr 28, 2013, 2:13:34 PM4/28/13
to
Hi, Lanarcam,
That's a difficult topic: if the author writes something difficult to understand, should the translator create a translation that is equally obscure?
I think it depends on the kind of text. if it were a poem, the translator certainly should.
The problem is that this text, although it has some degree of specialization, is basically for the general public.
I've also seen the translations of three previous texts by the same author and the other translators, who have a biological background, usually have translated "body proper" as "il corpo" (the body) or "altre parti del corpo" ("other parts of the body)
So, in my case, there is also the problem of "consistency" with previous texts...
Actually "body proper" is present several times in the text...
I really would like to ask the author...
May I ask whether it has ever happened to you to contact directly the author?
thanks again for your contribution
That's a difficult topic: if the author writes something difficult to understand, should the translator create a translation that is equally obscure?
I think it depends on the kind of text. if it were a poem, the translator certainly should.
The problem is that this text, although it has some degree of specialization, is basically for the general public.
I've also seen the translations of three previous texts by the same author and the other translators, who have a biological background, usually have translated "body proper" as "il corpo" (the body) or "altre parti del corpo" ("other parts of the body)
So, in my case, there is also the problem of "consistency" with previous texts...
Actually "body proper" is present several times in the text...
I really would like to ask the author...
May I ask whether it has ever happened to you to contact directly the author?
thanks again for your contribution
Lanarcam
Apr 28, 2013, 2:40:24 PM4/28/13
to
Le 28/04/2013 20:13, Alberto a �crit :
Seriously, I think you should translate faithfully, perhaps
while advising the author of possible mistakes. You should
be careful however because you can't always be sure that
it was not you who had not properly understood the sentence.
> I think it depends on the kind of text. if it were a poem, the translator certainly should.
I have never translated a poem, I find that generally you
can convey the meaning or the feeling but rarely both. You
have to be a poet yourself to do that. There are famous
examples, I can think of Baudelaire who translated
E.A. Poe.
faithful, the author had added "proper" for a purpose.
Perhaps, since it is for the general public, he wanted
to emphasize the fact that the brain controlled the
"rest" of the body. The problem is not simple since
we lack a word to describe what is part of the body
but not the brain itself. The body used to be understood
as distinct from the head in certain texts in the past,
that is perhaps the intended meaning.
"altre parti del corpo" conveys the meaning but adds
something that is the fact that the brain is understood
as part of the body. Is that necessary?
> So, in my case, there is also the problem of "consistency" with previous texts...
> Actually "body proper" is present several times in the text...
> I really would like to ask the author...
>
> May I ask whether it has ever happened to you to contact directly the author?
>
I have certainly asked agencies who were in touch with the
author.
> Hi, Lanarcam,
>
> That's a difficult topic: if the author writes something difficult to understand, should the translator create a translation that is equally obscure?
That can sometimes be tricky!
>
> That's a difficult topic: if the author writes something difficult to understand, should the translator create a translation that is equally obscure?
Seriously, I think you should translate faithfully, perhaps
while advising the author of possible mistakes. You should
be careful however because you can't always be sure that
it was not you who had not properly understood the sentence.
> I think it depends on the kind of text. if it were a poem, the translator certainly should.
can convey the meaning or the feeling but rarely both. You
have to be a poet yourself to do that. There are famous
examples, I can think of Baudelaire who translated
E.A. Poe.
>
> The problem is that this text, although it has some degree of specialization, is basically for the general public.
>
> I've also seen the translations of three previous texts by the same author and the other translators, who have a biological background, usually have translated "body proper" as "il corpo" (the body) or "altre parti del corpo" ("other parts of the body)
I think that the translation with "il corpo" is not
> The problem is that this text, although it has some degree of specialization, is basically for the general public.
>
> I've also seen the translations of three previous texts by the same author and the other translators, who have a biological background, usually have translated "body proper" as "il corpo" (the body) or "altre parti del corpo" ("other parts of the body)
faithful, the author had added "proper" for a purpose.
Perhaps, since it is for the general public, he wanted
to emphasize the fact that the brain controlled the
"rest" of the body. The problem is not simple since
we lack a word to describe what is part of the body
but not the brain itself. The body used to be understood
as distinct from the head in certain texts in the past,
that is perhaps the intended meaning.
"altre parti del corpo" conveys the meaning but adds
something that is the fact that the brain is understood
as part of the body. Is that necessary?
> So, in my case, there is also the problem of "consistency" with previous texts...
> Actually "body proper" is present several times in the text...
> I really would like to ask the author...
>
> May I ask whether it has ever happened to you to contact directly the author?
>
author.
Alberto
Apr 28, 2013, 4:05:28 PM4/28/13
to
> I think that the translation with "il corpo" is not
>
> faithful, the author had added "proper" for a purpose.
>
> Perhaps, since it is for the general public, he wanted
>
> to emphasize the fact that the brain controlled the
>
> "rest" of the body. The problem is not simple since
>
> we lack a word to describe what is part of the body
>
> but not the brain itself. The body used to be understood
>
> as distinct from the head in certain texts in the past,
>
> that is perhaps the intended meaning.
>
>
>
> "altre parti del corpo" conveys the meaning but adds
>
> something that is the fact that the brain is understood
>
> as part of the body. Is that necessary?
>
>
>
>
"In this book, this term indicates the extended nervous system distributed throughout the entire body that is intimately interwoven with the physiology and movements of the body as a whole. It is a term referring to the embodied neural mechanism that shapes the flow of energy and information. Often the term is used to signify only the skull-encased portion of the nervous system, a "head-brain," but in this book the term is used in this broader, whole-body meaning. The neural net processors around the heart and the gut, for example, are part of this larger notion of "brain" and could be called the "heart-brain" and the "gut-brain."
==
Then he says, for example:
"Limbic regions (Res): Located in the central part of the brain called the medial temporal lobe, these areas include the amygdala and hippocampus, which coordinate input from the higher cortical regions, with streams of input from the lower brainstem and the BODY PROPER"
==
The problem is that "body proper" (according to results in Google books) seems to be slightly more common than "corpo propriamente detto" in Italian (this phrase was very used in the past, much less in the last decades)...
Maybe I just should ask the author...if only there weren't those three previous books already translated and published, it would be much easier!
Thanks again
Traddict
Apr 28, 2013, 6:31:54 PM4/28/13
to
"Alberto" <alberto...@gmail.com> a �crit dans le message de groupe de
discussion : 5daba98a-8a03-4fd6...@googlegroups.com...
English-to-French online dictionary:
he lives outside the city proper il habite en dehors de la ville m�me OR
proprement dite
It therefore appears that the "quasi-adverbial" use of "proper" after a noun
is established in English, and is not specific to "body proper", which
suggests that the author might just as well have used e.g. "the body itself"
. That phrase happens to have a set translation in French, why don't you
just look up an Italian dictionary to find the corresponding set
translation, as I'm sure there is one?
Regards,
T
Alberto
Apr 29, 2013, 10:05:21 AM4/29/13
to
Hi,
I finally understood what the author intends with "body proper" (I think Lanarcam got it!)
"The body proper (muscles, bones, heart, lungs, intestines), the brainstem (fight-flight-or-freeze response) and limbic area (emotion, motivation, appraisal of meaning*, attachment, memory*) are the subcortical regions that are profoundly important for everything the cortex "does."
Thanks for your help!
I finally understood what the author intends with "body proper" (I think Lanarcam got it!)
"The body proper (muscles, bones, heart, lungs, intestines), the brainstem (fight-flight-or-freeze response) and limbic area (emotion, motivation, appraisal of meaning*, attachment, memory*) are the subcortical regions that are profoundly important for everything the cortex "does."
Thanks for your help!
Lanarcam
Apr 29, 2013, 10:25:47 AM4/29/13
to
Le 29/04/2013 16:05, Alberto a �crit :
(body \ nervous system)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complement_(set_theory)
How do you say "complement" in Italian? ;)
> Hi,
> I finally understood what the author intends with "body proper" (I think Lanarcam got it!)
>
> "The body proper (muscles, bones, heart, lungs, intestines), the brainstem (fight-flight-or-freeze response) and limbic area (emotion, motivation, appraisal of meaning*, attachment, memory*) are the subcortical regions that are profoundly important for everything the cortex "does."
>
It's simple then, the body proper is simply:
> I finally understood what the author intends with "body proper" (I think Lanarcam got it!)
>
> "The body proper (muscles, bones, heart, lungs, intestines), the brainstem (fight-flight-or-freeze response) and limbic area (emotion, motivation, appraisal of meaning*, attachment, memory*) are the subcortical regions that are profoundly important for everything the cortex "does."
>
(body \ nervous system)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complement_(set_theory)
How do you say "complement" in Italian? ;)
Traddict
Apr 29, 2013, 10:33:50 AM4/29/13
to
discussion : a3d6dc14-de55-4372...@googlegroups.com...
So are you going to use that explanation as a translation?
Alberto
Apr 29, 2013, 10:40:02 AM4/29/13
to
On Monday, April 29, 2013 4:25:47 PM UTC+2, Lanarcam wrote:
> Le 29/04/2013 16:05, Alberto a �crit :
Regards
> Le 29/04/2013 16:05, Alberto a �crit :
>
>
>
> >
>
> It's simple then, the body proper is simply:
>
>
>
> (body \ nervous system)
>
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complement_(set_theory)
>
>
>
> How do you say "complement" in Italian? ;)
It should be "complemento" (quite simple, for once!)
>
>
> >
>
> It's simple then, the body proper is simply:
>
>
>
> (body \ nervous system)
>
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complement_(set_theory)
>
>
>
> How do you say "complement" in Italian? ;)
Regards
Alberto
Apr 29, 2013, 10:46:47 AM4/29/13
to
>
> So are you going to use that explanation as a translation?
I don't know yet. But at least I know what the author meant and this will certainly help in finding a "proper" (!) translation...
I know that "proper" is "propriamente detto" in Italian, but it doesn't seem we use this expression very frequently in this particular context... It seems more common to say "cervello e resto del corpo" (brain and the rest of the body), for example.
But maybe I can use "corpo propriamente detto" and specify what is intended, at least the first time.
Thanks again!
Traddict
Apr 29, 2013, 11:13:23 AM4/29/13
to
discussion : 1160b22f-b50a-4a93...@googlegroups.com...
propriamente detto", and seems to be widely used in this context (Google
returns 41400 hits for ' "cervello" + "corpo stesso" ', and could therefore
be the right choice.
>
>>
>> So are you going to use that explanation as a translation?
>
>
> Hi,
> I don't know yet. But at least I know what the author meant and this will
> certainly help in finding a "proper" (!) translation...
>
> I know that "proper" is "propriamente detto" in Italian, but it doesn't
> seem we use this expression very frequently in this particular context...
"Il corpo stesso" is apparently an exact equivalent of "il corpo
>>
>> So are you going to use that explanation as a translation?
>
>
> Hi,
> I don't know yet. But at least I know what the author meant and this will
> certainly help in finding a "proper" (!) translation...
>
> I know that "proper" is "propriamente detto" in Italian, but it doesn't
> seem we use this expression very frequently in this particular context...
propriamente detto", and seems to be widely used in this context (Google
returns 41400 hits for ' "cervello" + "corpo stesso" ', and could therefore
be the right choice.
Alberto
Apr 29, 2013, 11:31:36 AM4/29/13
to
On Monday, April 29, 2013 5:13:23 PM UTC+2, Traddict wrote:
> "Alberto" <alberto...@gmail.com> a �crit dans le message de groupe de
I think "propriamente detto" and "proper" mean "strictly speaking", wheareas "stesso" or "itself" have an emphatic function...
I think that by using "body proper" the author wants to stress that he refers to the body WITHOUT the nervous system. Maybe he feels the need to use this expression, because before he has said that he uses the term "brain" as "extended nervous system distributed throughout the entire body". So "body proper" is all that is not normally included in the nervous system: muscles, bones, heart, lungs, intestines.
Anyway, I was thinking about your (yours and Lanarcam's) suggestions and I actually could use "corpo propriamente detto" followed by a specification of what it is.
I think it might be a good compromise between the peculiarity of the author's thought and the reader's need to understand the text (which is, by the way, very interesting, but also a bit complicated )
Thanks for your patience!
> "Alberto" <alberto...@gmail.com> a �crit dans le message de groupe de
>
> discussion : 1160b22f-b50a-4a93...@googlegroups.com...
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> So are you going to use that explanation as a translation?
>
> >
>
>
>
> discussion : 1160b22f-b50a-4a93...@googlegroups.com...
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> So are you going to use that explanation as a translation?
>
> >
>
>
>
> "Il corpo stesso" is apparently an exact equivalent of "il corpo
>
> propriamente detto", and seems to be widely used in this context (Google
>
> returns 41400 hits for ' "cervello" + "corpo stesso" ', and could therefore
>
> be the right choice.
>
>
>
> >
Hi, I find it difficult to explain it in English, but I think that in this context "stesso" and "propriamente detto" are not the same...
>
> propriamente detto", and seems to be widely used in this context (Google
>
> returns 41400 hits for ' "cervello" + "corpo stesso" ', and could therefore
>
> be the right choice.
>
>
>
> >
I think "propriamente detto" and "proper" mean "strictly speaking", wheareas "stesso" or "itself" have an emphatic function...
I think that by using "body proper" the author wants to stress that he refers to the body WITHOUT the nervous system. Maybe he feels the need to use this expression, because before he has said that he uses the term "brain" as "extended nervous system distributed throughout the entire body". So "body proper" is all that is not normally included in the nervous system: muscles, bones, heart, lungs, intestines.
Anyway, I was thinking about your (yours and Lanarcam's) suggestions and I actually could use "corpo propriamente detto" followed by a specification of what it is.
I think it might be a good compromise between the peculiarity of the author's thought and the reader's need to understand the text (which is, by the way, very interesting, but also a bit complicated )
Thanks for your patience!
Alberto
Apr 29, 2013, 11:54:03 AM4/29/13
to
> "Il corpo stesso" is apparently an exact equivalent of "il corpo
>
> propriamente detto", and seems to be widely used in this context (Google
>
> returns 41400 hits for ' "cervello" + "corpo stesso" ', and could therefore
>
> be the right choice.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
I think a possible synonym may be "corpo in senso stretto"...
Traddict
Apr 29, 2013, 12:08:51 PM4/29/13
to
discussion : 63e6b02f-e157-44fb...@googlegroups.com...
Then why not go for "il corpo stricto sensu", as Latin sounds good in
scientific texts in general?
>
scientific texts in general?
>
Alberto
May 1, 2013, 6:35:17 PM5/1/13
to
On Monday, April 29, 2013 6:08:51 PM UTC+2, Traddict wrote:
> "Alberto" <alberto...@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de groupe de
Thanks! I'll think about it!
Have a nice week!
> "Alberto" <alberto...@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de groupe de
Have a nice week!
Silvano
May 2, 2013, 10:17:57 AM5/2/13
to
Am 28.04.2013 22:05, schrieb Alberto:
> The problem is that "body proper" (according to results in Google books) seems to be slightly more common than "corpo propriamente detto" in Italian (this phrase was very used in the past, much less in the last decades)...
Slightly more common? This is quite normal, as there are
> The problem is that "body proper" (according to results in Google books) seems to be slightly more common than "corpo propriamente detto" in Italian (this phrase was very used in the past, much less in the last decades)...
many more English texts than Italian texts in Internet.
If a search engine finds some 10,000 "body proper", but less
than 10 "corpo propriamente detto", then I'd start looking
for alternative translations.
Please note that I am not suggesting a certain translation.
I am talking only about the relative frequency in English
and Italian.
Alberto
May 2, 2013, 11:57:08 AM5/2/13
to
Hi,
Silvano, you're definitely right...
I've taken this aspect into account and also the fact that many of the Italian results referred to many decades ago...
Time is also an important factor to consider when "googling"! (at first, I saw many results, but then I examined them more carefully)
Regards
Silvano, you're definitely right...
I've taken this aspect into account and also the fact that many of the Italian results referred to many decades ago...
Time is also an important factor to consider when "googling"! (at first, I saw many results, but then I examined them more carefully)
Regards
Michael Smith
Jan 9, 2014, 9:27:57 AM1/9/14
to
Michael Smith
Jan 9, 2014, 9:29:41 AM1/9/14
to
On Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:57:08 AM UTC-4, Alberto wrote:
Einde O'Callaghan
Jan 10, 2014, 1:53:15 AM1/10/14
to
On 09.01.2014 15:29, Michael Smith wrote:
> On Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:57:08 AM UTC-4, Alberto wrote:
<snip>
> On Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:57:08 AM UTC-4, Alberto wrote:
>
> I think "body proper" means "one's own body," and is what translator's sometimes refer to a "calque," that is a direct tracing from a foreign language. (We say in English "prince charming" and "notary public," due to a very literal translation (transposition almost) from French.
>
In many legal terms this is because before English became the language
> I think "body proper" means "one's own body," and is what translator's sometimes refer to a "calque," that is a direct tracing from a foreign language. (We say in English "prince charming" and "notary public," due to a very literal translation (transposition almost) from French.
>
of legal proceedings, Norman French was the language used.
Einde O'Callaghan
Eurolingua - Translations
Jan 24, 2014, 9:22:09 AM1/24/14
to
Dear Colleagues,
I would like to invite you to attend this interesting online webinar on "How
to speed up your Terminology Search on the WEB"
The first available date is set for Wednesday February 5th from 4,00PM to
7,00PM (GMT+1 - Centarl European Time)
The training course will be conducted in English and will last 3 hours
(first 2 hours about theory and last hour dedicated to a practical workshop.
For further information and possible registration please get conncted to
this web page: www.wordfast.it/terminology-research.html
I am looking forward to hearing from you,
With my best regards,
Paolo Sebastiani
EUROLINGUA
Land Line Tel: +39 (0)541 915164
Mobile Phone: +39 328 2419508
Skype: eurox55
email: in...@eurolingua.it
I would like to invite you to attend this interesting online webinar on "How
to speed up your Terminology Search on the WEB"
The first available date is set for Wednesday February 5th from 4,00PM to
7,00PM (GMT+1 - Centarl European Time)
The training course will be conducted in English and will last 3 hours
(first 2 hours about theory and last hour dedicated to a practical workshop.
For further information and possible registration please get conncted to
this web page: www.wordfast.it/terminology-research.html
I am looking forward to hearing from you,
With my best regards,
Paolo Sebastiani
EUROLINGUA
Land Line Tel: +39 (0)541 915164
Mobile Phone: +39 328 2419508
Skype: eurox55
email: in...@eurolingua.it
Alberto
Mar 3, 2014, 6:49:16 AM3/3/14
to
Thank you, Michael and Ende, for your remarks.
In this case, I feel that "body proper" might actually mean "other parts of the body...In the meantime I've read another book by the same author, in which he often says "the brain and other parts of the body" in similar contexts...
Thank you all for your help!
0 new messages