Format of German phone numbers
Nick Worley
written a post about it.
If you have a number such as: +49 (0)40 689 765-0, why is there a hyphen in
the number?
I think the 040 dialling code is for Hamburg, which is a largish city, so I
presume the phone numbers have 7 digits, so I'm guessing that the zero at
the end is part of the number (as opposed to say an extension number). The
hyphen and lone number at the end looks odd to me as someone used to English
conventions for writing phone numbers.
In the UK, for example, numbers tend to be grouped as follows:
- 6 digit numbers are often written with no spaces, e.g. 845932
- 7 digit numbers are often written as 3 then 4 digits, e.g. 845 9329
- 8 digit numbers are often grouped as 4/4, e.g. 8459 3291
I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's how I've often seen the numbers
grouped in the UK.
But I don't think I've ever seen numbers grouped using hyphens in the UK or
if I have, certainly not one stray number at the end.
So, long story short, it would look more "natural" to me as someone used to
UK conventions to write the number as follows:
+49 (0)40 689 7650
On other rare occasions I have seen *12* digit German phone numbers and I'm
sure that in that case the numbers at the end were an extension number -
does that sound likely? I mean even London with a population of about 7
million doesn't have 12 digit phone numbers.
What do people think?
Thanks
Nick
Christof Kuhn
>
> This is something that I've been wondering about for a while, but I've never
> written a post about it.
> If you have a number such as: +49 (0)40 689 765-0, why is there a hyphen in
> the number?
> I think the 040 dialling code is for Hamburg, which is a largish city, so I
> presume the phone numbers have 7 digits, so I'm guessing that the zero at
> the end is part of the number (as opposed to say an extension number). The
> hyphen and lone number at the end looks odd to me as someone used to English
> conventions for writing phone numbers.
>
AFAIK, phone numbers in Hamburg only have 6 digits.
At least, a google search for "hamburg telefon" gave me this impression.
Cheers, Christof
--
Christof Kuhn
Inst. f. Angewandte Geologie,
Univ. f. BoKu Wien, Austria
ku...@edv1.boku.ac.at
http://homepage.boku.ac.at/h9440283/index.htm
J.A.
<nickBECAUSE-I'M-WORTH-...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>This is something that I've been wondering about for a while, but I've never
>written a post about it.
>If you have a number such as: +49 (0)40 689 765-0, why is there a hyphen in
>the number?
>I think the 040 dialling code is for Hamburg, which is a largish city, so
I
040 is the dialing code fro hamburg, and the number 689 765-0 is the
number of somone with an internal switchboard, the -0 is an internal
extension.
the dialing code differs from 3 figures -large cities- to 5 for small
towns.
in hamburg you will find numbers with 6 to 8 figures in small towns
from 3 to 6 normally.
J.A.
João Luiz
> If you have a number such as: +49 (0)40 689 765-0, why is there a hyphen in
> the number?
This generally means an internal subdivision, like with 689 765-0 you will
hit the phone, with 689 765-1 the fax.
JL
David Goward
"Nick Worley" wrote...
(rather a lot about this phone n° +49 (0)40 689 765-0)
> What do people think?
>
I think that if you dialled the number up to the "5", you'd soon find out !
David
Darrel E. Knutson
"Nick Worley" <nickBECAUSE-I'M-WORTH-...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>If you have a number such as: +49 (0)40 689 765-0, why is there a hyphen in
>the number?
I have just such a number, but I use only one telephone on my ISDN line and
not a "Telefonanlage" to hook up multiple analog devices.
>I think the 040 dialling code is for Hamburg, which is a largish city, so I
>presume the phone numbers have 7 digits, so I'm guessing that the zero at
>the end is part of the number (as opposed to say an extension number). The
>hyphen and lone number at the end looks odd to me as someone used to English
>conventions for writing phone numbers.
When dialled from outside the country the country code (+49) is needed. The
"Vorwahl" for Hamburg is 040 inside of Germany and from outside the first 0
is left off.
According to some official style document I once saw, the numbers that
follow are written in groups of three - starting from the back, e.g.
12 345 678
1 424 787
What you see after the hyphen is the extension number. The general number
is -0 and those following may be telephones, faxes, modems or whatever.
>But I don't think I've ever seen numbers grouped using hyphens in the UK or
>if I have, certainly not one stray number at the end.
>So, long story short, it would look more "natural" to me as someone used to
>UK conventions to write the number as follows:
>+49 (0)40 689 7650
You're leaving off a bit of information that may or may not be vital or
redundant. In the case of the "0" you're fine. In the case of a "-21", then
it's really hard to backtrack to the general number for say, a company. I
might then mistakenly try to dial 869 7652-0. There are also a few large
companies here with 4-digit numbers and up to 5-digit extensions! Leave off
the hyphen for anything but the -0 extension and I will have a hard time
figuring out what the general company number is.
>On other rare occasions I have seen *12* digit German phone numbers and I'm
>sure that in that case the numbers at the end were an extension number -
>does that sound likely? I mean even London with a population of about 7
>million doesn't have 12 digit phone numbers.
>What do people think?
The number of digits in a telephone number varies. My in-laws live in a
small town that uses 4 digits for local numbers, but has a 5-digit
"Vorwahl". In Hamburg they are phasing out the 6-digit numbers and are
moving to numbers of 7 and more digits. A friend of mine has a 6-digit
number that I'd like to have, but the Deutsche Telekom won't let him
transfer the number to another account.
It's typcially German: more complicated than it ever had to be. At least I
don't have to guess at the article (der, die, das) for a telephone number!
Darrel
--
Internet Trainer & Translator <http://darrel.knutson.com/>
Roedingsmarkt 14 <mailto:dar...@knutson.com>
20459 Hamburg, Germany GSM/D2: +49 (0)173/2088764
Sally
"Christof Kuhn" <ku...@edv1.boku.ac.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3cb85b9b$0$21414$3b21...@news.univie.ac.at...
> AFAIK, phone numbers in Hamburg only have 6 digits.
>
I live in Hamburg and my number has 8 digits. As far as I know, there are
also older numbers with 6 and 7 digits, but the new numbers being given
("new" meaning 4 years ago or sooner) have 8 digits.
Hope this helps!
Sally
Sergio Parimbelli
"Darrel E. Knutson" schrieb:
>
> (...)
> According to some official style document I once saw, the numbers that
> follow are written in groups of three - starting from the back, e.g.
>
> 12 345 678
> 1 424 787
but German phone numbers are written in groups of TWO starting from the
back, according to the "Duden Satz- und Korrekturanweisungen" and to the
telephone books.
1 42 47 87 (German usage)
This book also states that the first three digits are grouped together
in Switzerland, where the area code is also not divided into groups of
two digits.
142 47 87 (Swiss usage)
But note that I have no Swiss telephone books available here.
I agree with all other statements in your e-mail.
Best regards
Sergio Parimbelli
Lee Sau Dan
>> AFAIK, phone numbers in Hamburg only have 6 digits.
>>
Sally> I live in Hamburg and my number has 8 digits. As far as I
Sally> know, there are also older numbers with 6 and 7 digits, but
Sally> the new numbers being given ("new" meaning 4 years ago or
Sally> sooner) have 8 digits.
I live in Freiburg, a city near the border with French and
Switzerland. Here and in the associated nearby towns, phone numbers
vary in length from 5 to 7 digits. I still haven't recognized any
regularities or simple rules for it. Even under the single region
code 0761 (Freiburg downtown and suburbs), I've seen numbers that
varies from 5 to 7 digits. It looks very arbitrary to me. This makes
it extremely difficult to check whether I've got a phone number
completely, esp. over the phone. It's quite frustrating for someone
like me who is used to uniform-length phone numbers (in Hong Kong).
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
E-mail: dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Sally
> I live in Freiburg, a city near the border with French and
> Switzerland. Here and in the associated nearby towns, phone numbers
> vary in length from 5 to 7 digits. I still haven't recognized any
> regularities or simple rules for it. Even under the single region
> code 0761 (Freiburg downtown and suburbs), I've seen numbers that
> varies from 5 to 7 digits. It looks very arbitrary to me. This makes
> it extremely difficult to check whether I've got a phone number
> completely, esp. over the phone. It's quite frustrating for someone
> like me who is used to uniform-length phone numbers (in Hong Kong).
>
That is difficult. But I have not come across anyone who has applied for a
new number and received a number here with 6 or 7 digits. This leads me to
believe those with 6 and 7 digits are the older ones. There are probably 6
and 7 digit numbers available but they would be "recycled" from those who
have moved or died. To avoid confusion, they probably just give out new 8
digit numbers. And, with ISDN, each person gets three numbers (at least), so
I can imagine the numbers running out more quickly.
But, actually, if 7 digits plus a 3 digit area code work in the States, the
same system could work here.
Who knows? We are in Germany after all.
sally
SimonT
message news:a99ks3$19bhr$1...@ID-90070.news.dfncis.de...
<snip>
>
> On other rare occasions I have seen *12* digit German phone numbers
> and I'm sure that in that case the numbers at the end were an
> extension number - does that sound likely? I mean even London with a
> population of about 7 million doesn't have 12 digit phone numbers.
> What do people think?
My German UMS tel. no. is 01212 - 5 - 678 - XX - XXX (14 digits, format
exactly as shown), whereby the X's represent the individual routing
number.
--
SimonT
____________
(change "berry" to "bury" for e-mail)
SimonT
"Sergio Parimbelli" <parim...@nikocity.de> wrote in message
news:3CBA9D08...@nikocity.de...
> Sorry to correct you on this point,
>
> "Darrel E. Knutson" schrieb:
> >
> > (...)
> > According to some official style document I once saw, the numbers
> > that follow are written in groups of three - starting from the back,
e.g.
> >
> > 12 345 678
> > 1 424 787
>
> but German phone numbers are written in groups of TWO starting from
> the back, according to the "Duden Satz- und Korrekturanweisungen" and
to
> the telephone books.
> 1 42 47 87 (German usage)
>
Officially (DT/German telephone book, etc.), *mostly* yes. But IME, many
different formats are in common use. Hyphens, spaces, brackets, etc. are
all common.
The apparently 'official' DT/German telephone book format:
(1234) 45 67 89 - Normal numbers with exchange no. /area code
0800 33 00800 - Free / "freecall"
0180 4 33 33 11 - Service numbers which cost something / toll numbers
01234 1234 - My ISP format
Darrel E. Knutson
Sergio Parimbelli <parim...@nikocity.de> wrote:
>but German phone numbers are written in groups of TWO starting from the
>back, according to the "Duden Satz- und Korrekturanweisungen" and to the
>telephone books.
>1 42 47 87 (German usage)
Odd that I have never seen a telephone number written that way. I have
dozens of local business cards here on my desk - and not one telephone
number is written using groups of two digits.
Then again, according to Duden, it "der URL", even though everyone I know
says "die URL".
John Woodgate
<dar...@knutson.com> wrote (in <B8E2413F...@222.0.iana-cblk-
reserved1>) about 'Format of German phone numbers', on Tue, 16 Apr 2002:
>Odd that I have never seen a telephone number written that way.
AFAIK, only France uses that XX XX XX XX format.
--
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Toby OCM
"John Woodgate" <j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:IV$HDMDU9...@jmwa.demon.co.uk...
> I read in sci.lang.translation that Darrel E. Knutson
> <dar...@knutson.com> wrote (in <B8E2413F...@222.0.iana-cblk-
> reserved1>) about 'Format of German phone numbers', on Tue, 16 Apr 2002:
>
> >Odd that I have never seen a telephone number written that way.
>
> AFAIK, only France uses that XX XX XX XX format.
Belgium uses XX.XX.XX.XX
--
Regards,
Toby
----
Enjoy the little things, for one day you may look back and realise they were
the big things
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Darrel E. Knutson
"SimonT" <kings...@gmx.net> wrote:
>The apparently 'official' DT/German telephone book format:
>(1234) 45 67 89 - Normal numbers with exchange no. /area code
>0800 33 00800 - Free / "freecall"
>0180 4 33 33 11 - Service numbers which cost something / toll numbers
>01234 1234 - My ISP format
This is a much different context. I have never seen telephone numbers
written like that *except* in the telephone book. Have a look at some
Hamburg business cards, company letterheads, Web sites, etc. None of them
follow the DTAG convention.
Alan Crozier
> <dar...@knutson.com> wrote (in <B8E2413F...@222.0.iana-cblk-
> reserved1>) about 'Format of German phone numbers', on Tue, 16 Apr 2002:
>
> >Odd that I have never seen a telephone number written that way.
>
> AFAIK, only France uses that XX XX XX XX format.
All Danish phone numbers are eight digits in that format. All Swedish phone
number are arranged (and read) in groups of two (or three if there's a odd
number of digits). I sometimes make the mistake of saying them that way when
talking to the UK, where people mishear my "forty-six" as "four-two-six".
Alan
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Alan Crozier
Skatteberga 1392
247 92 Södra Sandby
Sweden
TO REPLY BY E-MAIL: change Crazier to Crozier
Lee Sau Dan
Sally> That is difficult. But I have not come across anyone who
Sally> has applied for a new number and received a number here
Sally> with 6 or 7 digits. This leads me to believe those with 6
Sally> and 7 digits are the older ones. There are probably 6 and 7
Sally> digit numbers available but they would be "recycled" from
Sally> those who have moved or died.
In other places, such as Hong Kong, we just did a phone number
"reform" to "jump" from 7-digit number to 8-digit numbers. All
7-digit numbers are *systematically* mapped to 8-digit numbers. (It
was done by adding a "2" before the old number. Then, new numbers
starting with "9", "7", "8" were given out.) What's so hard with
that? We did that in 1993.
And before that, I also experience the migration from 6-digit numbers
(with region code) to 7-digit numbers (without region code). It was
more painful because one part of this reform was to drop the region
codes. Many irregular renumbers were made and we needed to update our
contact lists.
I know that Sydney and Melbourne also did something like that back in
1995 or so. They moved from 7-digit numbers to 8-digit numbers,
mainly by adding a "9" in front of the old number. Numbers in suburb
are each renumbered systematically. The result is that these
metropolitan areas now have a single region code, instead of multiple
suburb-based region codes.
How was that done in Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai, Peking and Canton when
they moved from 7-digit numbers to 8-digit numbers? I know that all
these cities except Paris now have phone numbers of 8-digit,
uniformly. This is very convenient, as I can always tell whether I've
got a phone number completely, esp. over the phone.
Sally> To avoid confusion, they
Sally> probably just give out new 8 digit numbers. And, with ISDN,
Sally> each person gets three numbers (at least), so I can imagine
Sally> the numbers running out more quickly.
Here, we've got much fewer people (around 20000). So, phone numbers
are still 7-digits for the longest ones (except when they have
in-house extensions).
Sally> But, actually, if 7 digits plus a 3 digit area code work in
Sally> the States, the same system could work here.
But it is no good. E.g. Greater Toronto alone has got 2 area codes.
This makes dialing within the metropolis complicated: for some
numbers, you CAN omit the area code; for some other numbers in the
same metropolis, you need to dial the area code. And calculating the
calling charges is more complicated because of this. This also
confuses outsides and foreigners, too! 2 area codes for the same
metropolis. So confusing!
Don't they have this problem too in NYC, LA, Chicago?
And almost all countries beside Canada and the US use different
lengths for the area/local codes. They make the length based on
population. Cities with more people get short area codes, for
economic (people's time; cost of the connecting wires and equipment)
reasons. This basically compensates for the longer local numbers when
people dial from overseas or from other cities. Cities and villages
with fewer people simply get shorter local numbers, making dialing
within those cities much easier. However, they get longer area codes.
Look at China, for instance. The big cities get area codes of 2
digits (discounting the "0" access code that they used to write before
the area code) and local numbers of 8 digits. Adding the country code
"86", it's just 12 digits. Just 1 digit more than US/Canada's
"1-xxx-xxxxxxx". Hong Kong has 8-digit numbers, no area code, and a
"country" code of "852". So, only 11-digits in full UTC form. Not
worse than the US. Tokyo has "86" as the country code, "3" for the
area code and 8-digit local numbers. Again, only 11-digits.
So, I think it is more reasonable to have different lengths for the
local and regional numbers depending on the size of population of a
certain area.
Lee Sau Dan
SimonT> The apparently 'official' DT/German telephone book format:
SimonT> (1234) 45 67 89 - Normal numbers with exchange no. /area
SimonT> code 0800 33 00800 - Free / "freecall" 0180 4 33 33 11 -
SimonT> Service numbers which cost something / toll numbers 01234
SimonT> 1234 - My ISP format
The people in this city like to use a "/" to separate the regional
code and local number, and use no parenthesis. (This can save 1
valuable letter from newspaper ads!) The only complaint is that they
don't put an "end-of-file" mark after that. So, it's difficult to
tell if I've got the correct number, given the variable length nature
of the local numbers here.
Sergio Parimbelli
>
> In article <3CBA9D08...@nikocity.de>,
> Sergio Parimbelli <parim...@nikocity.de> wrote:
>
> >but German phone numbers are written in groups of TWO starting from the
> >back, according to the "Duden Satz- und Korrekturanweisungen" and to the
> >telephone books.
> >1 42 47 87 (German usage)
>
> Odd that I have never seen a telephone number written that way. I have
> dozens of local business cards here on my desk - and not one telephone
> number is written using groups of two digits.
Dear Darrel,
shall I send you mine?
More seriously, I had a careful look at the letters I received in the
last few years from several German cities.
The area codes are almost always written without spaces, ignoring the
Duden recommendations.
About 50-60% xxxx/ and 40-50% (xxxx).
About 70% of the numbers after the area code are written:
xxx xx xx (actually more common) or
x xx xx xx
Some 20% are xxxxxxx
The rest is xxx xx xxx (but I found only one 8-digit number without an
extension),
xx xx xx (6 digits),
x xx xx (5 digits),
or xx xx (4 digits).
I could not find even ONE phone number written:
x xxx xxx, but I must say that Hamburg is missing from my collection. I
start wondering whether we are talking about the same Germany :-)
BTW, most people here in Berlin say, e.g., vier-zwei-drei fünf-acht
null-sechs.
Is this your experience in Hamburg as well? I'm getting really curious
about these regional differences.
And 100% of the dates are DD.MM.YYYY or DD.MM.YY (when the month is not
written in letters).
Best regards
Sergio Parimbelli
Nick Worley
> written in letters).
The DD.MM format is used in the UK too, but regarding dates, I think it
would be simpler and avoid any confusion globally if the month was written
in words.
e.g. 6 Apr 2002 or 6 April 2002 is not confusing, but 06.04.2002 is
confusing since some people will read it as 6 April and others will read it
as 4 June.
What do people think?
Regards
Nick
"Sergio Parimbelli" <parim...@nikocity.de> wrote in message
news:3CBD6AEF...@nikocity.de...
Steve M -move the dotcom to the end-
<dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
> Sally> But, actually, if 7 digits plus a 3 digit area code work in
> Sally> the States, the same system could work here.
>
>But it is no good. E.g. Greater Toronto alone has got 2 area codes.
>This makes dialing within the metropolis complicated: for some
>numbers, you CAN omit the area code; for some other numbers in the
>same metropolis, you need to dial the area code. And calculating the
>calling charges is more complicated because of this. This also
>confuses outsides and foreigners, too! 2 area codes for the same
>metropolis. So confusing!
>
>Don't they have this problem too in NYC, LA, Chicago?
I live in the 4th largest city in the USA. Yes, it was pretty stupid.
We could have gone to 8 digits, which would have covered every major
city. There are several reasons why it couldn't be done easily. More
information can be found at:
http://www.lincmad.com/future.html
In short, it's a combination of (a) the 3+7 scheme was hard-wired in
so many places in the system, and (b) the advent of competition, and
the assignment of potential new numbers to telephone companies in
blocks of 10,000 (not conceived back in the 1950's).
In Houston, Dallas, and several other areas, it means practically that
all local numbers are 10 digits. At present there are 3 area codes
for the Houston metro area. For now, most of 713 is inside of
Beltway, and 281 is outside. The third area code being used in areas
of rapid growth, mostly outside the Beltway and for wireless phones.
What was also proposed, and would have made sense, was to allow new,
separate area codes for wireless devices. After all, some people move
around frequently, and the term "area" is being used rather loosely.
Plus there are already some precedents for non-geographic area codes
(I think they call them "service" codes), mainly the toll-free codes
800, 888, 866, etc.
But the cellular phone companies asked for, and got, this changed. I
don't understand all the reasons, but one would have been that it
would have been "anti-competitive", and would have led to practical
discrimination. For example, say a new company wanted to offer
cellular service and was assigned one of the new area codes. That
would mean that customers would have been required to dial 10 or 11
digits to call cellular customers, while they could continue to dial
only 7 for wired subscribers. It was decided to treat cellular
customers the same way.
In Venezuela, where I grew up, it was done differently. The cellular
companies (now 3, I believe) were each given entirely new "area"
codes, that in fact cover the whole country. Very sensible in my
opinion.
>And almost all countries beside Canada and the US use different
>lengths for the area/local codes. They make the length based on
>population. Cities with more people get short area codes, for
>economic (people's time; cost of the connecting wires and equipment)
>reasons. This basically compensates for the longer local numbers when
>people dial from overseas or from other cities. Cities and villages
>with fewer people simply get shorter local numbers, making dialing
>within those cities much easier. However, they get longer area codes.
>Look at China, for instance. The big cities get area codes of 2
>digits (discounting the "0" access code that they used to write before
>the area code) and local numbers of 8 digits. Adding the country code
>"86", it's just 12 digits. Just 1 digit more than US/Canada's
>"1-xxx-xxxxxxx". Hong Kong has 8-digit numbers, no area code, and a
>"country" code of "852". So, only 11-digits in full UTC form. Not
>worse than the US. Tokyo has "86" as the country code, "3" for the
>area code and 8-digit local numbers. Again, only 11-digits.
>So, I think it is more reasonable to have different lengths for the
>local and regional numbers depending on the size of population of a
>certain area.
I would agree, but again, other "reasoning" prevailed in the USA.
One, regions grow and change. Next, for technical reasons, it is
apparently much more efficient for an exchange to wait for a fixed
number of digits from the caller, than it is to wait for one digit,
decide whether that digit completes a valid area code / local number
combination, and so on.
Venezuela used to have varying number lengths. Once we had to call a
hotel in the mountains, where my sister had gone with some friends,
and the local number had only 2 digits. My home number at the time
only had 4 digits (early 1970's). The largest cities had some areas
with 6 and others with 7. Later, my home town went to 5, then 6 about
10 years ago, and finally last year all numbers nationwide were
converted to 7. All area codes also went to 3 digits.
Steven
James Lee
I must say that Hamburg is missing from my collection. I start wondering
James Lee replied:
I have an extensive set of business cards from Hamburg. All of them have
phone nunmers in the form: (0 40) xx xx-xx xx. The four figures before the
dash are the company number, and the four figures after the dash are the
extension number. (0 40) xx xx-0 gives you the company exchange.
I think the style of quoting the telephone number is a comparatively recent
phenomenon, possibly the result of automated number recognition systems,
which cannot cope with 'zweiundviertzig' etc. Incidentally, I learned to say
'zwo' rather than 'zwei' on the telephone. Is this outdated?
Steve M -move the dotcom to the end-
<nickWITH-HIS-BRIGHT-EY...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> And 100% of the dates are DD.MM.YYYY or DD.MM.YY (when the month is not
>> written in letters).
>
>The DD.MM format is used in the UK too, but regarding dates, I think it
>would be simpler and avoid any confusion globally if the month was written
>in words.
>e.g. 6 Apr 2002 or 6 April 2002 is not confusing, but 06.04.2002 is
>confusing since some people will read it as 6 April and others will read it
>as 4 June.
>What do people think?
>Regards
>Nick
I always write the date in words when I do translations.
It can be confusing, because I sometimes receive documents from Latin
America in Spanish. Often they were prepared on U.S. versions of
Excel or other software packages, that use the US date format
(MM-DD-etc.)
Steven
David Goward
"Nick Worley" wrote...
> > And 100% of the dates are DD.MM.YYYY or DD.MM.YY (when the month is not
> > written in letters).
>
> The DD.MM format is used in the UK too, but regarding dates, I think it
> would be simpler and avoid any confusion globally if the month was written
> in words.
> e.g. 6 Apr 2002 or 6 April 2002 is not confusing, but 06.04.2002 is
> confusing since some people will read it as 6 April and others will read
it
> as 4 June.
> What do people think?
> Regards
> Nick
Refer to the current thread entitled "Dates in French and German". It's
been covered quite amply there.
David
SimonT
> >
> > In article <3CBA9D08...@nikocity.de>,
> > Sergio Parimbelli <parim...@nikocity.de> wrote:
> >
> I could not find even ONE phone number written:
> x xxx xxx, but I must say that Hamburg is missing from my collection.
I
> start wondering whether we are talking about the same Germany :-)
>
> BTW, most people here in Berlin say, e.g., vier-zwei-drei fünf-acht
> null-sechs.
> Is this your experience in Hamburg as well? I'm getting really curious
> about these regional differences.
>
IME here in Baden / Pfalz area, the area code numbers are generally
spoken individually as your example, but the following subscriber number
would be "zweiundvierzig-fünfunddreizig-achtzig-null-sechs" - although
seldom in such such "Hochdeitsch". (:-))
Bettina Price
"James Lee" <lee...@bart.nl> wrote in message
news:L9fv8.646$W3.8...@typhoon.bart.nl...
> I think the style of quoting the telephone number is a comparatively
recent
> phenomenon, possibly the result of automated number recognition systems,
> which cannot cope with 'zweiundviertzig' etc. Incidentally, I learned to
say
> 'zwo' rather than 'zwei' on the telephone. Is this outdated?
>
No, not at all. It is still done to make zwei more distinct from drei.
Greetings,
Bettina
Lee Sau Dan
Darrel> This is a much different context. I have never seen
Darrel> telephone numbers written like that *except* in the
Darrel> telephone book. Have a look at some Hamburg business
Darrel> cards, company letterheads, Web sites, etc. None of them
Darrel> follow the DTAG convention.
They normally space the numbers in a way that makes pronouciation easy
or funny. So, a hypothetical number "30 30 30" will be spaced that
way, and pronounced as "drei mal die dreißig", while "300 300" will be
spaced that way, pronounced "drei hundred drei hundred". "30 1000"
will be space like that and pronounced "dreißig ein tausend". There
seems to be no fixed rule or consistent notation other than "making it
easy to read out".
Lee Sau Dan
Steve> What was also proposed, and would have made sense, was to
Steve> allow new, separate area codes for wireless devices. After
Steve> all, some people move around frequently, and the term
Steve> "area" is being used rather loosely. Plus there are
Steve> already some precedents for non-geographic area codes (I
Steve> think they call them "service" codes), mainly the toll-free
Steve> codes 800, 888, 866, etc.
This is the case in many many countries, including German and Japan.
(This also means that calling a friend on the mobile number may be
charged different (usually much higher) than making a local call, even
when he's just next to you.)
But I myself like the system that you're using. We also use it in
Hong Kong. This makes the mobile numbers blend well with the fix-net
numbers. And in HK, it makes no difference on the phone bill whether
we are calling a fix-net number or a mobile number, irrespective of
whether the call originates from the fix-net or mobile. Every one
pays his own connection to the virtually grand-unified telephone
network. And most people just pay a flat monthly rate. So, it's
common for us just to call each other too see why can still haven't
meet each other even though we're at the "same" meeting place. When
we see each other, we just wave our hands and come together, but still
babble on the mobile phone for a while. :P
Of course, in a country with more than 1 cities, it makes sense to
have the mobile numbers to have its own "area code".
>> So, I think it is more reasonable to have different lengths for
>> the local and regional numbers depending on the size of
>> population of a certain area.
Steve> I would agree, but again, other "reasoning" prevailed in
Steve> the USA. One, regions grow and change. Next, for
Steve> technical reasons, it is apparently much more efficient for
Steve> an exchange to wait for a fixed number of digits from the
Steve> caller, than it is to wait for one digit, decide whether
Steve> that digit completes a valid area code / local number
Steve> combination, and so on.
Even with modern exchanges that support tone-dialing?
BTW, have you heard of the reason why 212 and 213 were assigned to NYC
and LA? You have to think in terms of the days of pulse dialing!!!
Steve> Venezuela used to have varying number lengths. Once we had
Steve> to call a hotel in the mountains, where my sister had gone
Steve> with some friends, and the local number had only 2 digits.
Steve> My home number at the time only had 4 digits (early
Steve> 1970's). The largest cities had some areas with 6 and
Steve> others with 7. Later, my home town went to 5, then 6 about
Steve> 10 years ago, and finally last year all numbers nationwide
Steve> were converted to 7. All area codes also went to 3 digits.
Just to "follow suit"?
Lee Sau Dan
James> I think the style of quoting the telephone number is a
James> comparatively recent phenomenon, possibly the result of
James> automated number recognition systems, which cannot cope
James> with 'zweiundviertzig' etc.
Why would such systems fail to cope with "zweiundvierzig"? And why
would people start to RELY on such systems if they're so stupid?
James> Incidentally, I learned to say
James> 'zwo' rather than 'zwei' on the telephone. Is this
James> outdated?
No. I still hear it often on TV.
Steve M -move the dotcom to the end-
<dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>BTW, have you heard of the reason why 212 and 213 were assigned to NYC
>and LA? You have to think in terms of the days of pulse dialing!!!
Yes, I noticed this in high school. There is a lot of information
about this here:
http://www.lincmad.com/table1947.html
NYC = largest city, 212 = shortest possible "dialed" number. (5
"pulls")
Chicago and LA, #2 and #3 = 312 and 213. (6 "pulls)
The original area codes with the most "pulls" (21) were sparsely
populated areas
605 S. Dakota
704 N. Carolina
803 S. Carolina
902 Maritime Prov. (NB, NS, PEI)
Steven
Darrel E. Knutson
"Nick Worley" <nickWITH-HIS-BRIGHT-EYES-AND-SHINY-COATworley@bt wrote:
>e.g. 6 Apr 2002 or 6 April 2002 is not confusing, but 06.04.2002 is
>confusing since some people will read it as 6 April and others will read it
>as 4 June.
>What do people think?
I prefer 6 April 2002 in my personal correspondence in English and 6. April
2002 in German. My translations reflect this, unless I know exactly who the
target audience for the document is.
Darrel E. Knutson
Sergio Parimbelli <parim...@nikocity.de> wrote:
Sergio,
We are in the same country, and the original question had to do with how
telephone numbers are written in Hamburg. That's where I am right now and
none of the 100+ business cards I have on my desk are writting "according
to Deutsche Telekon standard".
In Hamburg people like to say ridiculous things like
vier-hundred-zwei-drei-und-dreißig. Is that 400 2 33 or 402 33? My wife
said our old number like this:
vier-hundert-neunzig-sieben-und-vierzig-fünf-und-neunzig for 490 47 95. I
could never get myself to say that.
The dates are consistent, so when I am communicating with an American here
in Hamburg there are times when I have no idea which date is actually
meant.
Darrel E. Knutson
Lee Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>They normally space the numbers in a way that makes pronouciation easy
>or funny. So, a hypothetical number "30 30 30" will be spaced that
>way, and pronounced as "drei mal die dreißig", while "300 300" will be
>spaced that way, pronounced "drei hundred drei hundred". "30 1000"
>will be space like that and pronounced "dreißig ein tausend". There
>seems to be no fixed rule or consistent notation other than "making it
>easy to read out".
That does seem to be the case here, but there is no convention or fixed
standard that is commonly used. How would you deal with my office number:
040 366633? :-) I just say each individual digit and don't get fancy with
"drei, drei mal die sechs, zwei mal die drei".
I suspect that is what an "Apotheke" here does with a very similar number,
because people call me most every day enquiring about subscriptions and
medicines.
Darrel E. Knutson
"James Lee" <lee...@bart.nl> wrote:
>I have an extensive set of business cards from Hamburg. All of them have
>phone nunmers in the form: (0 40) xx xx-xx xx. The four figures before the
>dash are the company number, and the four figures after the dash are the
>extension number. (0 40) xx xx-0 gives you the company exchange.
Here's the number from a Hansenet (competitor to Deutsche Telekom) business
card: +49/40/237 26-xxxx. A lawyer here uses 040 / xxx xx xx. And here's
the format of the number for HanseMerkur (insurance company): (0 40) 41
19-xx xx.
Notice any consistency? I sure don't.
And the translators here aren't an improvement:
49 (0)40 x xx xx xx
040/xxxxxx
040 - xxx xx xx
+49 40 xx xxxxxx
040/xx xx xx xx
+49 - 40 xx xx xx xx
>Incidentally, I learned to say
>'zwo' rather than 'zwei' on the telephone. Is this outdated?
I hear it almost every day.
SimonT
news:B8E50D03...@222.0.iana-cblk-reserved1...
> In article <m3r8lez...@mika.informatik.uni-freiburg.de>,
> Lee Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>
> I suspect that is what an "Apotheke" here does with a very similar
number,
> because people call me most every day enquiring about subscriptions
and
> medicines.
>
My office tel. no. is almost the same as that of the local Red Cross
station responsible for the provision of special medical equipment (esp.
beds for bedridden patients at home).
Fortunately, I receive only a couple of enquiries a month. (;-)
David Goward
"SimonT" wrote:
> >
> My office tel. no. is almost the same as that of the local Red Cross
> station responsible for the provision of special medical equipment (esp.
> beds for bedridden patients at home).
>
> Fortunately, I receive only a couple of enquiries a month. (;-)
>
contractors operating the local refuse collection service. The number of
times I was asked on what day the bins were emptied in Treize-Septiers or
wherever...
Thankfully someone else whose name begins Gra... has slipped in between us
in this year's edition.
David
Lee Sau Dan
Darrel> I prefer 6 April 2002 in my personal correspondence in
Darrel> English and 6. April 2002 in German.
And this is more logical: you consistently go from smaller units to
larger units: day, month, year.
And I also like the Oriental way (Chinese, Japanese), in which we go
from larger units to smaller units *CONSISTENTLY*: year, month, day.
This style turns out to be easier for computer to process (because
dates in YYYY-MM-DD format can be sorted by comparing strings
lexicographically). It is not a coincidence that the ISO date format
is YYYY-MM-DD.
The American date format is, IMO, the most illogical. It jumps from
month to day and then year. Not a system at all!
Lee Sau Dan
Darrel> In Hamburg people like to say ridiculous things like
Darrel> vier-hundred-zwei-drei-und-dreißig. Is that 400 2 33 or
Darrel> 402 33? My wife said our old number like this:
Darrel> vier-hundert-neunzig-sieben-und-vierzig-fünf-und-neunzig
Darrel> for 490 47 95. I could never get myself to say that.
I also find it ridiculous to say numbers this way. But I'm learning
to recognize it (in parallel to learning German) and also trying to do
it myself.
Of course, your way of saying number is much easier to handle and more
intuitive, and we do it the same way in Chinese. Simpler and more
elegant, and also practical. I just can't understand how come people
have invented and even got used to that ridiculous method.
Lee Sau Dan
Darrel> Here's the number from a Hansenet (competitor to Deutsche
Darrel> Telekom) business card: +49/40/237 26-xxxx. A lawyer here
Darrel> uses 040 / xxx xx xx. And here's the format of the number
Darrel> for HanseMerkur (insurance company): (0 40) 41 19-xx xx.
Darrel> Notice any consistency? I sure don't.
Yes, I do. The consistency lies in the fact that they don't have a
consistent way of doing it. So, they consistently do it the ad-hoc
way they like. This can be considered a kind of consistency! :)
Lee Sau Dan
Darrel> That does seem to be the case here, but there is no
Darrel> convention or fixed standard that is commonly used. How
Darrel> would you deal with my office number: 040 366633? :-) I
Darrel> just say each individual digit and don't get fancy with
Darrel> "drei, drei mal die sechs, zwei mal die drei".
I'd prefer this one, as it is less confusing than "drei sechs sechs
sechs drei drei". The person on the other end of the phone line may
think/suspect halfway that you're trying to repeat some parts of the
number that you didn't say clearly.
Bettina Price
"Lee Sau Dan" <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message
news:m3elhb5...@mika.informatik.uni-freiburg.de...
> >>>>> "Darrel" == Darrel E Knutson <dar...@knutson.com> writes:
>
> Darrel> In Hamburg people like to say ridiculous things like
> Darrel> vier-hundred-zwei-drei-und-dreißig. Is that 400 2 33 or
> Darrel> 402 33? My wife said our old number like this:
> Darrel> vier-hundert-neunzig-sieben-und-vierzig-fünf-und-neunzig
> Darrel> for 490 47 95. I could never get myself to say that.
>
> I also find it ridiculous to say numbers this way. But I'm learning
> to recognize it (in parallel to learning German) and also trying to do
> it myself.
>
> Of course, your way of saying number is much easier to handle and more
> intuitive, and we do it the same way in Chinese. Simpler and more
> elegant, and also practical. I just can't understand how come people
> have invented and even got used to that ridiculous method.
>
It's a question of mnemonics. People group phone numbers so they can
remember them better.
Years ago, I knew a girl who found her phone number really hard to remember
when she grouped it in pairs (61 96 20) until someone pointed out to her
that it actually was really easy to remember if you read it as
"sechs-neunzehn, sechs-zwanzig". Works well (considering that she told me
this about twelve years ago and I can still remember her phone number).
Greetings,
Bettina
Steve M -move the dotcom to the end-
<dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>>>>>> "Darrel" == Darrel E Knutson <dar...@knutson.com> writes:
>
> Darrel> Here's the number from a Hansenet (competitor to Deutsche
> Darrel> Telekom) business card: +49/40/237 26-xxxx. A lawyer here
> Darrel> uses 040 / xxx xx xx. And here's the format of the number
> Darrel> for HanseMerkur (insurance company): (0 40) 41 19-xx xx.
>
> Darrel> Notice any consistency? I sure don't.
>
>Yes, I do. The consistency lies in the fact that they don't have a
>consistent way of doing it. So, they consistently do it the ad-hoc
>way they like. This can be considered a kind of consistency! :)
Keeps you on your toes.
Steven
einHund
"Darrel E. Knutson" <dar...@knutson.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:B8E50D03...@222.0.iana-cblk-reserved1...
> In article <m3r8lez...@mika.informatik.uni-freiburg.de>,
> Lee Sau Dan <dan...@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>
> >They normally space the numbers in a way that makes pronouciation easy
> >or funny. So, a hypothetical number "30 30 30" will be spaced that
> >spaced that way, pronounced "drei hundred drei hundred". "30 1000"
> >seems to be no fixed rule or consistent notation other than "making it
> >easy to read out".
>
> That does seem to be the case here, but there is no convention or fixed
> standard that is commonly used. How would you deal with my office number:
> 040 366633? :-) I just say each individual digit and don't get fancy with
> "drei, drei mal die sechs, zwei mal die drei".
I would pronounce it rhythmic, dreisechs-sechssechs-dreidrei
since many people might get confused with your sixes.
Michael