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WzM Nietzsche
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UC
Dec 11, 2009, 9:08:00 PM12/11/09
to
Große Dinge verlangen, daß man von ihnen schweigt oder groß redet:
groß, das heißt cynisch und mit Unschuld.
groß, das heißt cynisch und mit Unschuld.
Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent.
clicl...@freenet.de
Dec 12, 2009, 1:30:27 PM12/12/09
to
UC schrieb:
>
> Gro�e Dinge verlangen, da� man von ihnen schweigt oder gro� redet:
> gro�, das hei�t cynisch und mit Unschuld.
>
> Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> to say, cynically and without shame, � or be silent.
I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
"innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
What does WzM mean?
Martin.
UC
Dec 12, 2009, 3:42:11 PM12/12/09
to
On Dec 12, 1:30 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
> > Große Dinge verlangen, daß man von ihnen schweigt oder groß redet:
> > groß, das heißt cynisch und mit Unschuld.
>
> > Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> > to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent.
>
> I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
> to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
> "innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
> being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
> even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
> > Große Dinge verlangen, daß man von ihnen schweigt oder groß redet:
>
> > Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> > to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent.
>
> I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
> to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
> "innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
> being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
> even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
This is a very sensitive translation issue for so few words. For N to
define "groß" as "cynisch und mit Unschuld" is rather odd, to say the
least.
>
> What does WzM mean?
>
> Martin.
Wille zur Macht
UC
Dec 12, 2009, 4:07:28 PM12/12/09
to
> > Große Dinge verlangen, daß man von ihnen schweigt oder groß redet:
> > groß, das heißt cynisch und mit Unschuld.>
> > Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> > to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent.
>
> I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
> to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
> "innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
> being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
> even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
>
> What does WzM mean?
>
> Martin.
When I first saw it, the "strong tension, even incompatibility"
between "zynisch" and "mit Unschuld" is something that struck me as a
flaw, and I tried to make them not so seemingly incompatible in the
translation. A text such as this one would need a lot of notes and
commentary; otherwise the reader will think something is amiss with
the translation.
UC
Dec 12, 2009, 4:17:41 PM12/12/09
to
> > Große Dinge verlangen, daß man von ihnen schweigt oder groß redet:
> > groß, das heißt cynisch und mit Unschuld.>
> > Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> > to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent.
>
> I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
> to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
> "innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
> being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
> even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
>
> What does WzM mean?
>
> Martin.
clicl...@freenet.de
Dec 13, 2009, 1:31:38 PM12/13/09
to
UC schrieb:
> > > Gro�e Dinge verlangen, da� man von ihnen schweigt oder gro� redet:
> > > gro�, das hei�t cynisch und mit Unschuld.> >
> > > Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> > > to say, cynically and without shame, � or be silent.
> >
> > I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
> > to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
> > "innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
> > being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
> > even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
> >
>
> When I first saw it, the "strong tension, even incompatibility"
> between "zynisch" and "mit Unschuld" is something that struck me as a
> flaw, and I tried to make them not so seemingly incompatible in the
> translation. A text such as this one would need a lot of notes and
> commentary; otherwise the reader will think something is amiss with
> the translation.
> between "zynisch" and "mit Unschuld" is something that struck me as a
> flaw, and I tried to make them not so seemingly incompatible in the
> translation. A text such as this one would need a lot of notes and
> commentary; otherwise the reader will think something is amiss with
> the translation.
Not having read Nietzsche, I have no idea if the context could serve to
elucidate what is meant. It makes a difference if somebody is assumed to
speak of "magnificient" achievements of his own, or of the
"magnificient" achievements of others, or simply about "magnificient"
nature. It is also possible that Nietzsche didn't know what he meant.
Taking "zynisch und mit Unschuld" at face value, the default reading is
to assume an implied "zugleich" (at the same time), and to correlate the
dubious motives asserted by "zynisch" and the moral ignorance implied by
"mit Unschuld", where clearly the "gro�e Dinge" are what is morally
dubious. In your translation, however, the default reading is to relate
"without shame" to the "speaking (cynically)".
UC schrieb:
> This is a very sensitive translation issue for so few words. For N to
> define "gro�" as "cynisch und mit Unschuld" is rather odd, to say the
> least.
The default reading is not to take "cynisch und mit Unschuld" as an
attribute of "gro�e Dinge" in general, but only as an attribute of "gro�
von ihnen reden".
Martin.
UC
Dec 13, 2009, 4:01:39 PM12/13/09
to
On Dec 13, 1:31 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 12, 1:30 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > > UC schrieb:
>
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 12, 1:30 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > > UC schrieb:
>
> > > > Große Dinge verlangen, daß man von ihnen schweigt oder groß redet:
> > > > groß, das heißt cynisch und mit Unschuld.>
> > > > Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> > > > to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent.
>
> > > I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
> > > to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
> > > "innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
> > > being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
> > > even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
>
> > When I first saw it, the "strong tension, even incompatibility"
> > between "zynisch" and "mit Unschuld" is something that struck me as a
> > flaw, and I tried to make them not so seemingly incompatible in the
> > translation. A text such as this one would need a lot of notes and
> > commentary; otherwise the reader will think something is amiss with
> > the translation.
>
> Not having read Nietzsche, I have no idea if the context could serve to
> elucidate what is meant. It makes a difference if somebody is assumed to
> speak of "magnificient" achievements of his own, or of the
> "magnificient" achievements of others, or simply about "magnificient"
> nature. It is also possible that Nietzsche didn't know what he meant.
>
> Taking "zynisch und mit Unschuld" at face value, the default reading is
> to assume an implied "zugleich" (at the same time), and to correlate the
> dubious motives asserted by "zynisch" and the moral ignorance implied by
> dubious. In your translation, however, the default reading is to relate
> "without shame" to the "speaking (cynically)".
>
> UC schrieb:
>
> > This is a very sensitive translation issue for so few words. For N to
> > least.
>
> The default reading is not to take "cynisch und mit Unschuld" as an
> von ihnen reden".
>
> Martin.
Uhhhh...yes of course...why do you think otherwise?
"Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that
is
to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent."
The fact that these are all adverbials makes that clear.
There is no context, this is a single paragraph in the text.
Message has been deleted
UC
Dec 13, 2009, 4:10:43 PM12/13/09
to
On Dec 13, 1:31 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 12, 1:30 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > > UC schrieb:
>
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 12, 1:30 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > > UC schrieb:
>
> > > > Große Dinge verlangen, daß man von ihnen schweigt oder groß redet:
> > > > groß, das heißt cynisch und mit Unschuld.>
> > > > Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> > > > to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent.
>
> > > I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
> > > to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
> > > "innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
> > > being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
> > > even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
>
> > When I first saw it, the "strong tension, even incompatibility"
> > between "zynisch" and "mit Unschuld" is something that struck me as a
> > flaw, and I tried to make them not so seemingly incompatible in the
> > translation. A text such as this one would need a lot of notes and
> > commentary; otherwise the reader will think something is amiss with
> > the translation.
>
> Not having read Nietzsche, I have no idea if the context could serve to
> elucidate what is meant. It makes a difference if somebody is assumed to
> speak of "magnificient" achievements of his own, or of the
> "magnificient" achievements of others, or simply about "magnificient"
> nature. It is also possible that Nietzsche didn't know what he meant.
>
> Taking "zynisch und mit Unschuld" at face value, the default reading is
> to assume an implied "zugleich" (at the same time), and to correlate the
> dubious motives asserted by "zynisch" and the moral ignorance implied by
> dubious. In your translation, however, the default reading is to relate
> "without shame" to the "speaking (cynically)".
>
> UC schrieb:
>
> > This is a very sensitive translation issue for so few words. For N to
> > least.
>
> The default reading is not to take "cynisch und mit Unschuld" as an
> von ihnen reden".
>
> Martin.
This is the first line of Wille zur Macht, there is no context.
Message has been deleted
UC
Dec 14, 2009, 9:48:09 AM12/14/09
to
On Dec 13, 1:31 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 12, 1:30 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > > UC schrieb:
>
> UC schrieb:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 12, 1:30 pm, cliclic...@freenet.de wrote:
> > > UC schrieb:
>
> > > > Große Dinge verlangen, daß man von ihnen schweigt oder groß redet:
> > > > groß, das heißt cynisch und mit Unschuld.>
> > > > Magnificent things demand that we speak of them magnificently, that is
> > > > to say, cynically and without shame, — or be silent.
>
> > > I would say that translating "mit Unschuld" as "without shame" amounts
> > > to an interpretation; the actual meaning covers all of the shades of
> > > "innocently". Thus, in addition to the legal sense, it also refers to
> > > being morally untainted, having no idea of evil. The strong tension,
> > > even incompatibility, with "zynisch" is lost in the translation.
>
> > When I first saw it, the "strong tension, even incompatibility"
> > between "zynisch" and "mit Unschuld" is something that struck me as a
> > flaw, and I tried to make them not so seemingly incompatible in the
> > translation. A text such as this one would need a lot of notes and
> > commentary; otherwise the reader will think something is amiss with
> > the translation.
>
> Not having read Nietzsche, I have no idea if the context could serve to
> elucidate what is meant. It makes a difference if somebody is assumed to
> speak of "magnificient" achievements of his own, or of the
> "magnificient" achievements of others, or simply about "magnificient"
> nature. It is also possible that Nietzsche didn't know what he meant.
>
> Taking "zynisch und mit Unschuld" at face value, the default reading is
> to assume an implied "zugleich" (at the same time), and to correlate the
> dubious motives asserted by "zynisch" and the moral ignorance implied by
> dubious. In your translation, however, the default reading is to relate
> "without shame" to the "speaking (cynically)".
>
> UC schrieb:
>
> > This is a very sensitive translation issue for so few words. For N to
> > least.
>
> The default reading is not to take "cynisch und mit Unschuld" as an
> von ihnen reden".
>
> Martin.
I am now completely confused. I take "cynisch und mit Unschuld" to be
adverbial to "redet". Do you think otherwise?
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