Dutch Blue
Charles Eicher
left over from an old art history class, about the etymology of
the term "Dutch Blue." AFAIK, this term is only used in Japan,
or in reference to the bright blue color used in ukiyo-e.
But today, I turned on the TV, and there was an NHK
documentary on this very subject. It's amazing what kind
of info just falls into your lap here in Japan. So I wrote a few
notes and put it up on my blog, you can read it here:
Travers Naran
You know, I would have called this knowledge on par with takochuu. I grew
up with a mother obsessed with Delft ceramics, and the famous Delft Blue.
I've heard it referred to as Dutch blue as well.
But as for Lapis Lazuli and it's introduction in Japan, Google is your friend:
<http://www.suevematsu.com/lapis_lazuli.html>
But it shouldn't surprise anyone that it would be in Japan. Lapis Lazuli
was used virtually as currency all along the Silk Road. It's unique blue
color was prized everywhere. There are some very nice mosques decorated
with lapis lazuli.
During the Afghan-Soviet war, there were some fierce fighting for control
of the famous lazuli mines because the profits from the mines could finance
your army for years.
Deranged Personality Splinter
> During the Afghan-Soviet war,
Oh, you mean the war during which the US funded, trained, and armed
Osama Bin Laden.
<drawing of a scientist, his face covered blackened and his hair all
frazzled, looking down on an experiment gone wrong.>
By the way, Travers, is your name Sub-Continental?
--
「イエス盲人(めしひ)の手をとりて、村の外に連れ往き、その目に唾(つばき)
し、御手を当てて『何か見ゆるか』と問ひ給へば、見上げて言ふ『人を見る、そ
れは樹の如き物の歩くが見ゆ。』」 可 八・二三－四
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
>>During the Afghan-Soviet war,
>
> Oh, you mean the war during which the US funded, trained, and armed
> Osama Bin Laden.
Back then, he was a freedom fighter fighting against the Godless heathens.
> <drawing of a scientist, his face covered blackened and his hair all
> frazzled, looking down on an experiment gone wrong.>
It's called "blowback" in CIA circles. ;-)
> By the way, Travers, is your name Sub-Continental?
The first name? No. The last name. Maybeee.... どうして？
Charles Eicher
>
>Charles Eicher wrote:
>> For a long time, I've had one of those nagging historical questions
>> left over from an old art history class, about the etymology of
>> the term "Dutch Blue." AFAIK, this term is only used in Japan,
>> or in reference to the bright blue color used in ukiyo-e.
>> But today, I turned on the TV, and there was an NHK
>> documentary on this very subject. It's amazing what kind
>> of info just falls into your lap here in Japan. So I wrote a few
>> notes and put it up on my blog, you can read it here:
>>
>> http://ceicher.homeunix.com/archives/000691.html
>
>You know, I would have called this knowledge on par with takochuu.
The difference being that artists who can work with lapis lazuli pigments can
make a fortune from their artwork, many are legendary names like Giotto.
>I grew
>up with a mother obsessed with Delft ceramics, and the famous Delft Blue.
>I've heard it referred to as Dutch blue as well.
But Dutch Blue isn't Delft Blue. Dutch Blue is Lazurite in a powdered pigment
applied with an oil or water medium, Delft Blue is cobalt oxide glaze on
ceramics. The video showed Delft Blue being applied, it is pure black until it
is fired in the kiln.
>But as for Lapis Lazuli and it's introduction in Japan, Google is your friend:
>
><http://www.suevematsu.com/lapis_lazuli.html>
I haven't got sufficient access for leisurely googling these days, so thanks for
looking that up, but I'd have to say that page is pure bunkum. Yesterday I
visited the Tokyo National Museum which is exhibiting a lot of the oldest
treasures from Mt Koya, focusing particularly on the kukai shingon sects, it's
one of those shows that exhibits all the goodies that have never been seen
outside the monastery every before, and they really put all the best and most
important works in the show. I didn't see any evidence of lazurite pigments, and
that's the sort of thing I would notice. But there were quite a few scrolls with
indigo-dyed papers with writing in gold pigment. Sure maybe kukai got ahold of a
chunk of lapis as the web page asserts, but I don't think anyone ever had the
idea to grind it up and paint with it until the 15th century. It was considered
a rather radical idea even to European Renaissance artists like Giotto, where
lapis was well known as a semiprecious jewel.
Deranged Personality Splinter
> Back then, he was a freedom fighter fighting against the Godless heathens.
Godless, yes, but heathens, no. You see, the Russians have been
Christian about as long as the Anglo-Saxons (988?). The US never doubted
that. It was the Cindy-lovers who started the whole mess who decided to
shoo YHWH off into a corner.
> It's called "blowback" in CIA circles. ;-)
Some guy wrote a book on it and got called "shrill" by the Wall Street
Journal.
> The first name? No. The last name. Maybeee.... どうして？
Call me a dead cat.
Deranged Personality Splinter
> The difference being that artists who can work with lapis lazuli pigments can
> make a fortune from their artwork, many are legendary names like Giotto.
A) Your statement fails to prove a connection between use of lapis
lazuli and wealth.
B) You obviously don't want to know how much successful manga-ka make.
Paul Blay
> Charles Eicher wrote:
>
> > The difference being that artists who can work with lapis lazuli pigments can
> > make a fortune from their artwork, many are legendary names like Giotto.
>
> A) Your statement fails to prove a connection between use of lapis
> lazuli and wealth.
Particularly between knowing the origin of a word related to lapis lazuli and
wealth.
> B) You obviously don't want to know how much successful manga-ka make.
While I'm not disagreeing; How many sucessful manga-ka, or indeed authors of
any sort, have made their fortune working in a second /learned/ language?
Deranged Personality Splinter
> While I'm not disagreeing; How many sucessful manga-ka, or indeed authors of
> any sort, have made their fortune working in a second /learned/ language?
That's "learned" with a grave accent over the last e, right?
Chris Kern
<ra...@saotome.demon.co.uk> posted the following:
>"Deranged Personality Splinter" wrote ...
>> B) You obviously don't want to know how much successful manga-ka make.
>
>While I'm not disagreeing; How many sucessful manga-ka, or indeed authors of
>any sort, have made their fortune working in a second /learned/ language?
Not many, although there are a number of examples of very successful
English-language authors for whom English was a second language
(Nabokov, Ayn Rand, Joseph Conrad, and maybe Chinua Achebe).
-Chris
Charles Eicher
Splinter says...
>
>Charles Eicher wrote:
>
>> The difference being that artists who can work with lapis lazuli pigments can
>> make a fortune from their artwork, many are legendary names like Giotto.
>
>A) Your statement fails to prove a connection between use of lapis
>lazuli and wealth.
I wasn't aware that there was a need to prove a connection
between the purchase of precious gemstones and the expenditure
of large sums of money.
>B) You obviously don't want to know how much successful manga-ka make.
And in 500 years, they'll still be talking about Giotto, but not
the mangaka of today.
Travers Naran
>
> And in 500 years, they'll still be talking about Giotto, but not
> the mangaka of today.
Even today most people don't talk about Giotto. Hell, ask most people who
Raphael was and they'll say he was a mutant ninja turtle.
Oh, sorry, I forgot: I don't know who Giotto and Raphael are because I'm
brain damaged and read nothing but manga. ごめんなさい。 m(_ _)m I'll
remember my place in the future. 出る釘は打たれる.
Cindy
出る釘も打たれるけど、正確には「出る杭」だよん。
上記の言葉で検索したら、面白い（興味深い）エッセイを見つけたので時間が
あったら読んでみて。
http://impromotive.sub.jp/nekomaru/text/j-school.html
彼の小学校の時の先生に恨みを持っている。
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
>
>>Charles Eicher wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And in 500 years, they'll still be talking about Giotto, but not
>>>the mangaka of today.
>>
>>
>>Even today most people don't talk about Giotto. Hell, ask most people who
>>Raphael was and they'll say he was a mutant ninja turtle.
>>
>>Oh, sorry, I forgot: I don't know who Giotto and Raphael are because I'm
>>brain damaged and read nothing but manga. ごめんなさい。 m(_ _)m I'll
>>remember my place in the future. 出る釘は打たれる.
>
> 出る釘も打たれるけど、正確には「出る杭」だよん。
I just cut-n-past from EDICT. Blame Jim. :-)
> 上記の言葉で検索したら、面白い（興味深い）エッセイを見つけたので時間が
> あったら読んでみて。
>
> http://impromotive.sub.jp/nekomaru/text/j-school.html
Looks interesting, and JWPce says I know half the kanji already, so I'll
give it a try. Thank you.
> 彼の小学校の時の先生に恨みを持っている。
You'd be surprised at the number of people who carry grudges against their
old teachers.
Deranged Personality Splinter
> I wasn't aware that there was a need to prove a connection
> between the purchase of precious gemstones and the expenditure
> of large sums of money.
You don't. But you have to prove it was the artists themselves
purchasing it, and not their patrons.
> And in 500 years, they'll still be talking about Giotto, but not
> the mangaka of today.
I'll give you $5 for that crystal ball of yours. No make that $4.
Shez
Or indeed by playing takochuu, which is what I thought the comparison
was.
-Shez.
--
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