chigau desu ????
jet...@my-deja.com
I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
brettr
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Jay Andrew Allen
never thought much of it. It sounds like an abbreviation of "chigau no
desu" or "chigau n desu".
There is no textbook "correct" or "incorrect" in any language. If other
people can understand you, and your wording conforms to social norms
within the given context, your speech is "correct".
-J-
In article <7p94du$34g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
Jay Andrew Allen
Software Development - http://www.geocities.com/~jayandrewallen/softeng
Japanese Links - http://www.geocities.com/~jayandrewallen/nippon
Dave Fossett
>
>
> I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
>
> Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
> this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
Are you sure it wasn't "chigau n desu", which is a common abbreviated form of
"chigau no desu"?
--
Dave Fossett
Saitama, JAPAN
Makoto Doita
> I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
>
> Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
> this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
>
> brettr
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Maybe you simply missed the 'n' sound in between?
--
Makoto Doita (mailto:do...@yamato.ibm.com)
Information Technology Specialist - Client / Server
SMB Solution Support, TSM - AP, Product Support & Services
IBM Japan, Ltd.
Jesse Smith
> I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
> Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
> this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
I'm guessing it was "chigau n desu", short for "chigau no desu". I'm
not really qualified to speak about the nuances of "n/no da/desu", but
it's kind of in the middle between "chigau" and "chigaimasu" in
politeness.
--
Jesse Smith
jds...@servtech.com
"Don't spend the rest of your life wondering." - They Might Be Giants
Prince Richard Kaminski
Jesse Smith wrote:
> jet...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
>
> > Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
> > this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
>
> I'm guessing it was "chigau n desu", short for "chigau no desu". I'm
> not really qualified to speak about the nuances of "n/no da/desu", but
> it's kind of in the middle between "chigau" and "chigaimasu" in
> politeness.
I remember when I first went to Japan and had to ask for someone who turned
out not to be there. I was told "inai desu" (definitely no 'no' in between).
I was confused at the time, because I from what I had learnt, I thought they
should have said "imasen". However, the latter form is far less common than
the first, although it does usually have a 'no' in there somewhere.
Tomoyuki Tanaka
>
>I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
>
>Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
>this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
you're right.
chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
typical gaijin speech.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
s.l.j (TT topics) FAQ: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/japan/language-TT
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/japan/language-TT.html
http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/archive/japan.language-tt.html
=--------------------------------------------------------------------
-- "akai desu" is ungrammatical, and other fine/anal points
>
> `desu' after an adjective has
> no other purpose than to provide politeness,
(ungrammatical phrases/utterances are marked with asterisks.)
"*akai desu" is ungrammatical and sounds juvenile (infantile,
baby-talk, as "akai desyu").
it sounds like a Jp phrase spoken by a gaijin.
the correct way to make the assertion "akai" into a more polite
form is "akou gozaimasu" (which, i admit, sounds anachronistic
and over-polite).
since DESU and DA are grammatically equivalent, allowing
*AKAI DESU would result in allowing *AKAI DA.
strange: *abunai desu/da
correct:
kiken desu/da
abunou gozaimasu
abunai no desu/da
abunai n desu/da
i think this is a position shared by older (purist) writers
and linguists.
"ookii desune" sounds acceptable.
=--------------------------------------------------------------------
akai is a (canonical) keiyoushi
shizuka is a (canonical) keiyoudoushi
("canonical" means "archetypical" in Hackerspeak.)
keiyoushi words have inflections (katuyou), e.g.,
akai akakatta akakunai akaitoki akakereba ...
keiyoudoushi words don't have inflections (katuyou)
and are followed by DA/DESU.
on "akai desu", Honda Katuiti (prominent journalist) agrees
with me completely. "nihongo no sakubun gijutu" (p.222--)
another "gaijin-sounding" phrase is "... nai desu".
strange: "XXX ga nai desu"
correct: "XXX ga arimasen"
strange: "XXX-sinai desu" (okinai desu, toranai desu, kakanai desu)
correct: "XXX-simasen " (okimasen, torimasen, kakimasen)
=--------------------------------------------------------------------
this "akai desu" is (to a small extent) a matter of taste.
jet...@my-deja.com
Thanks everyone, maybe it was there, maybe it wasn't, but I don't
normally hear "n" anyway.
In article <7p94du$34g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
jet...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
>
> Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
> this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
>
Makoto Doita
>
> Jesse Smith wrote:
>
> > jet...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
> >
> > > Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
> > > this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
> >
> > not really qualified to speak about the nuances of "n/no da/desu", but
> > it's kind of in the middle between "chigau" and "chigaimasu" in
> > politeness.
>
> I remember when I first went to Japan and had to ask for someone who turned
> out not to be there. I was told "inai desu" (definitely no 'no' in between).
> I was confused at the time, because I from what I had learnt, I thought they
> should have said "imasen". However, the latter form is far less common than
> the first, although it does usually have a 'no' in there somewhere.
'Inai desu' is pretty common expression and I find no oddity.
However 'chigau desu' is bit different - somebody once tried to complete
the sentence with 'chigau' but thought completing the sentence that way
is not a polite way, so he just put 'desu' afterwards in order to show
he's not trying to be rude.
This can happen with other words also.
--
Makoto Doita (mailto:do...@yamato.ibm.com)
Information Technology Specialist
Charles Eicher
>chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
>
>typical gaijin speech.
Are you seriously going to parade your ignorance again, after having been
slapped down so hard the last time you insisted "akai desu" was ungrammatical?
You were proven absolutely wrong on this one, by both "gaijin" and nihonjin
living in Japan. And your pages full of protestations don't change the fact: you
are WRONG. But then, this sort of ignorance is expected from a
japanese-illiterate like you.
Sure, akai desu is "typical gaijin speech" IF they're a gaijin who is fluent in
Japanese.
nishikawa
Tomoyuki Tanaka <tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:7p9hgm$4ts$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu...
> In article <7p94du$34g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <jet...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >I just heard a lady on TV say "chigau desu".
> >
> >Apart from her having the BIANS (But I AM a Native Speaker) privilege,
> >this is not correct is it? Surely "chigaimasu" would be better????
>
>
>
> chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
>
> typical gaijin speech.
>
"Gochanndesu" by Sumo-tori is an exception, although there are nowdays
several gaijin Sumo-tori?
--
Nishikawa
Nishikawa Trade GmbH nish...@t-online.de
ドイツの高級洋食器 カトラリー／リモージュ（Limoges）の高級洋食器販売
Jesse Smith
> chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
> typical gaijin speech.
It's funny that all of my Japanese penpals (who live in Japan and
speak only Japanese) say things like "akai desu".
> another "gaijin-sounding" phrase is "... nai desu".
> strange: "XXX ga nai desu"
> correct: "XXX ga arimasen"
"nai desu" may be a little strange, but it's certainly not uncommon.
Annie
> In article <7p9hgm$4ts$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu says...
>
> >chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
> >
> >typical gaijin speech.
Am I a gaijin?????
I say "Akai desu.".....
> Are you seriously going to parade your ignorance again, after having been
> slapped down so hard the last time you insisted "akai desu" was
> ungrammatical? You were proven absolutely wrong on this one, by both
> "gaijin" and nihonjin living in Japan. And your pages full of
> protestations don't change the fact: you are WRONG.
You (Charles) are right.
The form 'adjective -i' + desu _was_ ungrammatical before.
But many people use the form, and the Monbu-sho approved this form on
1952.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Tomoyuki Tanaka
Annie <ann...@gol.com> wrote:
>Charles Eichmann <ceic...@inav.net> wrote:
>
>> >chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
>> >
>> >typical gaijin speech.
>
>Am I a gaijin?????
>I say "Akai desu.".....
>
i thought Annie was a gaijin with a near-perfect Japanese.
i suppose akai desu, nai desu are incorrect
only in the sense that
/noo-cular/ is an incorrect pronunciation
or
"10 items or less" is incorrect.
lots of Americans (even educated ones) say these.
Charles Eicher
>>
>>> >chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
>>> >
>>> >typical gaijin speech.
>>
>>Am I a gaijin?????
>>I say "Akai desu.".....
>>
>
>i thought Annie was a gaijin with a near-perfect Japanese.
Never in my life have I ever encountered such a bigot as Tomoyuki Tanaka, who
makes such unwarranted assumptions about people's race, based on no evidence
whatsoever.
Just for future reference, Mr. Tomoyuki, I suggest that you change your basic
assumptions about people. You should assume EVERYONE is a native-level Japanese
speaker. Because compared to YOU, they all ARE.
>i suppose akai desu, nai desu are incorrect
It does you no good to link a perfectly grammatical phrase like "akai desu" with
an ungrammatical one like "nai desu." The more you persist in defending your
mistake, the more it proves my point, that you are Japanese-illiterate.
>only in the sense that
>/noo-cular/ is an incorrect pronunciation
Do you go around correcting people's English too? No wonder people can't stand
you.
>or
>"10 items or less" is incorrect.
>
>lots of Americans (even educated ones) say these.
My teacher would say, at this point, "Don't argue with the language!"
Charles Eicher
>
>many Jp people avoid "akai desu" by
And many people come up with convoluted arguments rather than admit their
ignorance, when caught in an undeniable mistake.
>
> makka desu.
> akairo ga kirei desu.
Isn't that another adjective+desu form?
> kireina aka desu.
> akai iro desune.
> akai iro wo siteimasu.
> ...
None of this has the slightest relevance to your assertion that "akai desu" is
ungrammatical and incorrect. But go ahead, keep digging a hole for yourself, it
is rather amusing watching you bury yourself.
Mark Bradford
> 'Inai desu' is pretty common expression and I find no oddity.
> However 'chigau desu' is bit different - somebody once tried to complete
> the sentence with 'chigau' but thought completing the sentence that way
> is not a polite way, so he just put 'desu' afterwards in order to show
> he's not trying to be rude.
> This can happen with other words also.
I was talking with a young woman from Chino, in a park in my neighborhood,
when an older couple with Japanese features got out of their car and
proceeded to take photos of the sign proclaiming it "Kanemoto Park". I
speculated, "Mou Nihonjin deshou ka?" and heard the reply as "Wakaranai
desu", and assumed it was an example of what you describe; but my inexpert
ear could easily have missed an "n" (though I think I would have noticed a
full "no").
-- Mark Bradford (dino...@uswest.net) <> To err is human, to moo bovine.
"It is good to have an open mind, but not at both ends."
Chris S.
tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu (Tomoyuki Tanaka) wrote:
> only in the sense that
> /noo-cular/ is an incorrect pronunciation
> or
> "10 items or less" is incorrect.
>
> lots of Americans (even educated ones) say these.
If Americans pronounce/say it that way then IT IS CORRECT..
--Chris
--
...Mabuhay...
Visit / Visitez http://www.game-master.com
Gerald B Mathias
: In article <1dwp7og.1mz...@tc-1-199.kyoto.gol.ne.jp>,
: Annie <ann...@gol.com> wrote:
: >Charles Eichmann <ceic...@inav.net> wrote:
: >
: >> >chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
: >> >
: >> >typical gaijin speech.
: >
: >Am I a gaijin?????
: >I say "Akai desu.".....
: >
: i thought Annie was a gaijin with a near-perfect Japanese.
: i suppose akai desu, nai desu are incorrect
: only in the sense that
: /noo-cular/ is an incorrect pronunciation
: or
: "10 items or less" is incorrect.
: lots of Americans (even educated ones) say these.
The difference is that there is a better way to say those English words
and phrases. How do you say "It's red" politely, but not overly politely?
Unfortunately, "akakarimasu" never made it.
With the "(...)nai-desu" matter, it would be easy to be correct, because
there is a "-masen" form for all. It use to bug me when a Japanese
colleague who insisted adjective + "-desu" was ungrammatical (but
necessary!) had no qualms about "(...)nai-desu."
Bart
Jim Breen
>>If Americans pronounce/say it that way then IT IS CORRECT..
Must be quite a burden - setting the standard for everyone else
on the planet.
Explains why some of our papers get sent back from certain journals
because the spelling is "incorrect".
--
Jim Breen School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
Email: j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au Monash University
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton VIC 3168 Australia
P: +61 3 9905 3298 F: 9905 3574 ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Tomoyuki Tanaka
[the std blurb on descriptive vs. prescriptive
functions of grammar.]
Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
>
>How do you say "It's red" politely, but not overly politely?
>Unfortunately, "akakarimasu" never made it.
>
many Jp people avoid "akai desu" by
makka desu.
akairo ga kirei desu.
jet...@my-deja.com
> "10 items or less" is incorrect.
>
> lots of Americans (even educated ones) say these.
>
OK, Mr Tanaka you've got me on this one. What is wrong with it?
brettr
ps my answer is to do with the missig subject
Chris S.
Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> In sci.lang.japan Chris S. <van...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >>If Americans pronounce/say it that way then IT IS CORRECT..
>
> Must be quite a burden - setting the standard for everyone else
> on the planet.
>
> Explains why some of our papers get sent back from certain journals
> because the spelling is "incorrect".
Hmm.. Guess I shoulda said "correct" for them... But then again, there
really isn't any such thing as correct pronunciation, is there?
--Chris
--
...Mabuhay...
Visit / Visitez http://www.game-master.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Doug Wickstrom
ether to say:
>In article <7pc8ku$kmg$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
> tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu (Tomoyuki Tanaka) wrote:
>
>> "10 items or less" is incorrect.
>>
>> lots of Americans (even educated ones) say these.
>>
>
>OK, Mr Tanaka you've got me on this one. What is wrong with it?
I _really_ hate to stick up for the weasel, but "less" is not the
best usage for items that can be counted, as opposed to measured.
"Fewer" would be more correct. However, "less" isn't actually
wrong. Most usage questions can be fairly amiably settled in
favor of better/best choice, rather than right versus wrong.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Traditionally, most of Australia's imports come from overseas."
--former cabinet minister Keppel Enderbery
Jim Breen
>> Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>> Explains why some of our papers get sent back from certain journals
>>> because the spelling is "incorrect".
>>Hmm.. Guess I shoulda said "correct" for them... But then again, there
>>really isn't any such thing as correct pronunciation, is there?
An (Australian) friend of mine many years ago was living in Raleigh,
North Carolina. His kids went to school there. He found out one day that
his son, an excellent reader, had been placed in a "remedial reading"
class. On hotfooting off to the school to find out why, he was told by
the teacher it was because his son mispronounced words like "half" and
"tomato".
[Sorry to the slj-ers who have heard/read that anecdote before.]
--
Jim Breen [j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
Monash University, Fax: +61 3 9905 3574
Clayton VIC 3168, Australia ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
muchan
>
> [the std blurb on descriptive vs. prescriptive
> functions of grammar.]
>
> Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
> >
> >How do you say "It's red" politely, but not overly politely?
> >Unfortunately, "akakarimasu" never made it.
> >
>
> many Jp people avoid "akai desu" by
>
> makka desu.
> akairo ga kirei desu.
"many" Jp people says such a funny phrase? or
"Only one Jp person" (== TT) thinks it's normal Jp phrase?
Until this post, I never heard or read the word /akairo/.
Is this TT's inovation? or regional vocaburary? or just I heared it as
/akai iro/ everytime it was pronounced in frint of me?
> kireina aka desu.
> akai iro desune.
> akai iro wo siteimasu.
> ...
Think about teacher in kindergarden talk to children:
haai, kono e-o mite-kudasaai, kono hana-wa akai-desu-ne,
dewa, kotchino hana-wa naniiro-desuka?
Do you think it's not normal?
Should she say "akai iro-o shite-masu-ne" or
"kono hana-no iro-wa aka-desu-ne"?
TT knows about the difference of descriptive and prescriptive grammer,
and insist "incorrectness" based on his "presriptive" grammer, and say it
"typical gaijin speech". I think he is linguistically recessive.
muchan
Jim Breen
>>Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
>>>
>>> many Jp people avoid "akai desu" by
>>>
>>Until this post, I never heard or read the word /akairo/.
>>Is this TT's inovation? or regional vocaburary? or just I heared it as
>>/akai iro/ everytime it was pronounced in frint of me?
I have 赤色 in EDICT with the あかいろ reading. Nelson has it read
both あかいろ and せきしょく. The Kodansha has せきしょく as the main
reading, but gives あかいろ as the meaning.
Makoto Doita
> An (Australian) friend of mine many years ago was living in Raleigh,
> North Carolina. His kids went to school there. He found out one day that
> his son, an excellent reader, had been placed in a "remedial reading"
> class. On hotfooting off to the school to find out why, he was told by
> the teacher it was because his son mispronounced words like "half" and
> "tomato".
How could he mispronounce "half" and "tomato"?
--
Makoto Doita (mailto:do...@yamato.ibm.com)
Information Technology Specialist - Client / Server
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> How could he mispronounce "half" and "tomato"?
You ever heard the song, "you say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe"?
He was in South Carolina and pronounced them the way they did in
Australia. To the SC people, it was "wrong."
Tony
Anthony J. Bryant
Not Tanaka, but I'll answer and save the headache. <G>
This one drives me crazy, too. I wish someone who spoke English would
make these signs.
"Less" refers to a single quantity; "a liter or less of water." When
you're enumerating items, the word must be "fewer"; "ten items or
fewer."
Tony
Prince Richard Kaminski
"Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> jet...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > "10 items or less" is incorrect.
> >
> > OK, Mr Tanaka you've got me on this one. What is wrong with it?
>
> Not Tanaka, but I'll answer and save the headache. <G>
>
> This one drives me crazy, too. I wish someone who spoke English would
> make these signs.
>
> "Less" refers to a single quantity; "a liter or less of water."
Or in other words, uncountable nouns. Countable nouns take 'fewer', as
you say in the part I snipped. Less bread, fewer loaves of bread.
Doug Wickstrom
<j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> excited the ether to say:
>Chris S. <van...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>> Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>>> Explains why some of our papers get sent back from certain journals
>>>> because the spelling is "incorrect".
>
>>>Hmm.. Guess I shoulda said "correct" for them... But then again, there
>>>really isn't any such thing as correct pronunciation, is there?
>
>An (Australian) friend of mine many years ago was living in Raleigh,
>North Carolina. His kids went to school there. He found out one day that
>his son, an excellent reader, had been placed in a "remedial reading"
>class. On hotfooting off to the school to find out why, he was told by
>the teacher it was because his son mispronounced words like "half" and
>"tomato".
This in the state where they speak Heel?
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler."
--Albert Einstein
Gerald B Mathias
: jet...@my-deja.com wrote:
: >
: > > "10 items or less" is incorrect.
: >
: > OK, Mr Tanaka you've got me on this one. What is wrong with it?
: Not Tanaka, but I'll answer and save the headache. <G>
: This one drives me crazy, too. I wish someone who spoke English would
: make these signs.
: "Less" refers to a single quantity; "a liter or less of water." When
: you're enumerating items, the word must be "fewer"; "ten items or
: fewer."
You're going to live long enough to hear "the amount of students taking
French" and "How much people are running in this race?" become *very*
common. Hold on to your sanity!
Back in the '40s there were contests worded in the manner of "Complete the
sentence 'I like Oxydol because ...' in 25 words or less." I think I used
to understand that as "or less verbosity" but whatever the case, the
"incorrect" form has been around a long time.
Bart
Gerald B Mathias
: [the std blurb on descriptive vs. prescriptive
: functions of grammar.]
: Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
: >
: >How do you say "It's red" politely, but not overly politely?
: >Unfortunately, "akakarimasu" never made it.
: many Jp people avoid "akai desu" by
: makka desu.
: akairo ga kirei desu.
: kireina aka desu.
: akai iro desune.
: akai iro wo siteimasu.
The last two are at least possible, for people who really hate
"...i-desu."
But I find it hard to believe that many people are always ready with a
paraphrase for what would be "... itai." "... ii." "... marui." "...
takai." etc., if they didn't have to be polite.
On the other hand, it would probably be a good vocabulary-building
classroom game.
How about -deshoo? "Ii-deshoo!" is unacceptable? How about
"Hareru-deshoo"? "Muzukashii-dearoo"?
For those who accept these examples, the difference in "grammaticality"
twixt *"hareru-desu" and "harenai-desu" can be nothing more than "what
people actually say."
Bart
Mike Wright
>
[...]
> TT knows about the difference of descriptive and prescriptive grammer,
> and insist "incorrectness" based on his "presriptive" grammer, and say it
> "typical gaijin speech". I think he is linguistically recessive.
"Linguistically recessive" is a pretty nice term for a writer of stoned English.
Maybe muchan is Confused Grannie?
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Mike Wright
>
> On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:16:18 GMT, jet...@my-deja.com excited the
> ether to say:
>
> >In article <7pc8ku$kmg$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
> >>
> >
>
> best usage for items that can be counted, as opposed to measured.
> "Fewer" would be more correct. However, "less" isn't actually
> wrong. Most usage questions can be fairly amiably settled in
> favor of better/best choice, rather than right versus wrong.
Notice that if something cost four dollars, you can probably say, "It cost me
fewer than five dollars", but if it cost $4.95, you have to say "It cost me less
than five dollars." That kind of ambiguity may be bleeding over into other areas
of use--just a wild guess.
Don Kirkman
<7pc8ku$kmg$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>:
>In article <1dwp7og.1mz...@tc-1-199.kyoto.gol.ne.jp>,
>Annie <ann...@gol.com> wrote:
>>Charles Eichmann <ceic...@inav.net> wrote:
>>> >chigau desu & akai desu are both incorrect.
>>> >typical gaijin speech.
>>Am I a gaijin?????
>>I say "Akai desu.".....
>i thought Annie was a gaijin with a near-perfect Japanese.
Another error, eh? Annie is a Nihonjin with near-perfect (not 'a
near-perfect') English.
--
Don
Don Kirkman
> [the std blurb on descriptive vs. prescriptive
> functions of grammar.]
>Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
>>How do you say "It's red" politely, but not overly politely?
>>Unfortunately, "akakarimasu" never made it.
>many Jp people avoid "akai desu" by
> makka desu.
It's VERY [or totally] red.
> akairo ga kirei desu.
Red is pretty.
> kireina aka desu.
It's a pretty red.
> akai iro desune.
It's red, isn't it.
> akai iro wo siteimasu.
It's red.
Muzukashii desu, ne?
--
Don
Fabian
Makoto Doita hija kitbat
> No, but I got it.
> What about 'half'? 'hauf' instead of 'ha-f'? (grrrr, It's rather
> difficult to express what want to say with 26 plus some characters...)
There are dialects of English in which a syllable-final 'l' is not
pronounced, or is pronounced as a 'w'. Lancashire English is one such
dialect. Then there are others where that final 'f' could be voiced,
becoming a 'v'.
--
---
Fabian
If a flying horse ye see, mock ye not if it stays up not.
Makoto Doita
No, but I got it.
What about 'half'? 'hauf' instead of 'ha-f'? (grrrr, It's rather
difficult to express what want to say with 26 plus some characters...)
--
Hisashi FUKUI
Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7pf4k4$amb$1...@news.hawaii.edu>...
>Tomoyuki Tanaka (tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
>
>: [the std blurb on descriptive vs. prescriptive
>: functions of grammar.]
>
>: Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
>: >
>: >How do you say "It's red" politely, but not overly politely?
>: >Unfortunately, "akakarimasu" never made it.
>
>: many Jp people avoid "akai desu" by
>
>: makka desu.
>: kireina aka desu.
>: akai iro desune.
>: akai iro wo siteimasu.
>
>The last two are at least possible, for people who really hate
>"...i-desu."
>
>But I find it hard to believe that many people are always ready with a
>paraphrase for what would be "... itai." "... ii." "... marui." "...
>takai." etc., if they didn't have to be polite.
>
>On the other hand, it would probably be a good vocabulary-building
>classroom game.
>
>How about -deshoo? "Ii-deshoo!" is unacceptable? How about
>"Hareru-deshoo"? "Muzukashii-dearoo"?
>
>For those who accept these examples, the difference in "grammaticality"
>twixt *"hareru-desu" and "harenai-desu" can be nothing more than "what
>people actually say."
Well, I think Tomoyuki's claim that "akai desu" is ungrammatical
is suggestive for advanced learners and native Japanese.
Although we usually say "akai desu", "kowai desu", "samui desu",
and so on, we completely avoid them in formal writings. And
even in conversation, we sometimes feel a slight awkwardness in
"akai desu" usage and try to say another way if possible.
Therefore we should admit that the rule, no matter how weak it
may be, that basically "desu" should follow after a noun or noun-
equivalent, does exist.
It is not difficult to explain why "akai desu" usage appears so
often in conversation in spite of this rule. As Tomoyuki suggests
in his FAQ file, "desu" in this usage is informal/simplified kei-go.
And we use it conveniently, especially when a sentence needs
politeness but other options are hardly found than simply adding
"desu".
I think the only fault that Tomoyuki made is that he asserted
"akai desu" is "typical gaijin speech." "Akai desu" usage is
rather typical standard Japanese speech, at least in Tokyo area.
I think his claim was kind of exaggeration to emphasize the
awkwardness of this usage. But many learners in this news
group do not know how Japanese people actually talk, and
therefore such an exaggeration could easily become a wrong
information. If he slightly amends his FAQ file in this regard, it
will be useful for elementary learners as well. I don't want his
valuable information to be spoiled.
Bart's comment is also suggestive for me. I have found notes
in my dictionary that "deshou", "darou" and "de arou" should
follow after "rentai-kei" of verbs/adjectives as well as nouns.
So they are treated different way from "desu" or "da" in my
dictionary, while they are all derived from "desu" or "da"
apparently.
Hisashi
muchan
> Bart
Acording to TT, "yoroshii-desuka?" is gaijin speech.
"-deshoo" is interesting.
"Hareru-desu" is wrong, but you say "hareru-deshoo".
Without politeness, it would be "hareru-d(e) aroo".
"-desu" is supposedly from "-de (ari-ma)su", and "-de (ari-ma)shou",
but so two avbreviation developped separately, then?
Typical police report ends all the sentence with "-no-de (ari-ma)su".
maybe "grammatically wrong" sentence comes from this structure, just
dropping "-n(o)"? ???
muchan (maybe another tofu post...)
muchan
I think this Hisashi's message is very very excellent, well written.
muchan (only difference in my opinion is that I don't expect anything
in TT' FAQe...)
Hisashi FUKUI wrote:
>
> Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7pf4k4$amb$1...@news.hawaii.edu>...
> >Tomoyuki Tanaka (tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
> >
> >: [the std blurb on descriptive vs. prescriptive
> >: functions of grammar.]
> >
> >: Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
> >: >
> >: >How do you say "It's red" politely, but not overly politely?
> >: >Unfortunately, "akakarimasu" never made it.
> >
> >: many Jp people avoid "akai desu" by
> >
> >: makka desu.
> >: akairo ga kirei desu.
> >: kireina aka desu.
> >: akai iro desune.
> >: akai iro wo siteimasu.
> >
> >The last two are at least possible, for people who really hate
> >"...i-desu."
> >
> >But I find it hard to believe that many people are always ready with a
> >paraphrase for what would be "... itai." "... ii." "... marui." "...
> >takai." etc., if they didn't have to be polite.
> >
> >On the other hand, it would probably be a good vocabulary-building
> >classroom game.
> >
> >How about -deshoo? "Ii-deshoo!" is unacceptable? How about
> >"Hareru-deshoo"? "Muzukashii-dearoo"?
> >
> >For those who accept these examples, the difference in "grammaticality"
> >twixt *"hareru-desu" and "harenai-desu" can be nothing more than "what
> >people actually say."
>
nishikawa
Anthony J. Bryant <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:37BAD3...@indiana.edu...
> Makoto Doita wrote:
> >
> > How could he mispronounce "half" and "tomato"?
>
> You ever heard the song, "you say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe"?
>
> He was in South Carolina and pronounced them the way they did in
> Australia. To the SC people, it was "wrong."
>
I still remember that all people except gaijin like me down there in
Nashville pronouced the famous "Sprite", SPRAHT and they liked to laugh the
pronunciation of the long distance operaters in New York when they hear
them spoke very clearly, NAIN NAIN for 99 because it sounded so strange to
the people who'd definilty say NAH.
Then came a movie titled Call Miner's Daughter. I think I heard it
sung -------Call MAHNERS Daughter -----.
--
Nishikawa
Nishikawa Trade GmbH nish...@t-online.de
ドイツの高級洋食器 カトラリー／リモージュ（Limoges）の高級洋食器販売
Gerald B Mathias
: Doug Wickstrom wrote:
: >
: > On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:16:18 GMT, jet...@my-deja.com excited the
: > ether to say:
: >
: > >In article <7pc8ku$kmg$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
: > > tan...@catbert.ucdavis.edu (Tomoyuki Tanaka) wrote:
: > >
: > >> "10 items or less" is incorrect.
: > >>
: > >> lots of Americans (even educated ones) say these.
: > >>
: > >
: > >OK, Mr Tanaka you've got me on this one. What is wrong with it?
: >
: > I _really_ hate to stick up for the weasel, but "less" is not the
: > best usage for items that can be counted, as opposed to measured.
: > "Fewer" would be more correct. However, "less" isn't actually
: > wrong. Most usage questions can be fairly amiably settled in
: > favor of better/best choice, rather than right versus wrong.
: Notice that if something cost four dollars, you can probably say, "It cost me
: fewer than five dollars", but if it cost $4.95, you have to say "It cost me less
: than five dollars." That kind of ambiguity may be bleeding over into other areas
: of use--just a wild guess.
Five dollars is almost always an amount of money, not a number of dollars.
Especially if it is a price.
Something else that probably contributes to the blur between "less" and
"fewer" is that the opposite of both is "more."
Japanese doesn't have a good translation of either "less" or "fewer." I
note this just as an excuse to keep this in slj.
Bart
Gerald B Mathias
: "-deshoo" is interesting.
: "Hareru-desu" is wrong, but you say "hareru-deshoo".
: Without politeness, it would be "hareru-d(e) aroo".
I would like to think that people feel at least as awkward when they write
"hareru-dearoo" (which *looks* like "hareru-de aroo") as when they say
"akai desu."
"-de" follows a rentai-/shuushi-kei of verb or "i" adjective only with
"aroo" tacked on, or munged with "-wa" in "(hareru)-ja (nai). My guess at
what happened is 1. -deshoo gets particalized in polite speech. 2.
Perhaps later (it hasn't been that long since "ame-ga furoo" was natural,
I believe), -daroo gets particalized in informal speech, but is not used
after "i" adjectives (not "akai-daroo" but "akakaroo"). 3.
Particalization increases; "akai-daroo" becomes natural. 4. "de aru"
style (informal impersonal) needs a matching particle, so "-dearoo" is
created as a back formation from "-daroo."
I don't know whether anybody has done the research to support or falsify
this conjecture.
Bart
Atsushi YAGASAKI
> Although we usually say "akai desu", "kowai desu", "samui desu",
we って誰？ 貴方の家族？
私はこんな「変」な日本語はまず使いませんが・・・。
私の身近にいる人も同様。
別に喧嘩を売っている訳ではないのですが、こう言う不正確な一般化は
止めて頂きたいものです。sci.lang.japanにポストされている事を
考えると特に。
（alt.t.t.なんてのはどうでも良いのですが）
yagasaki
Atsushi YAGASAKI
> I would like to think that people feel at least as awkward when they write
> "hareru-dearoo" (which *looks* like "hareru-de aroo") as when they say
> "akai desu."
>
?????
hareru here is not an adjective. It's a verb.
晴れるであろう is quite natural as 赤くなるであろう, at least to me. :)
yagasaki
Jonh Stout
: make these signs.
enough to think that is wrong
: "Less" refers to a single quantity; "a liter or less of water." When
: you're enumerating items, the word must be "fewer"; "ten items or
: fewer."
Are you one of those people who gets all bunched up when people refer to
2000 as the new millennium?
I'm in band, and one of things that came up today is "play loud"
Which would correctly be "play loudly", but its not like anyone had any
misconceptions about what was being asked for
Oh yah, back to japanese
Is the avoiding the "-i desu" thing about as important as avoiding ending
english sentences in prepositions?
{I never noticed until after seeing Beavis&Butthead}
--
Jonh David Stout >>+_+<< jo...@polter.net
"Lord, what fools these mortals be" -Puck
Jim Breen
>>Are you one of those people who gets all bunched up when people refer to
>>2000 as the new millennium?
Bunched up? Not at all. I just knock them to the ground and trample on
them.
Annie
<yaga...@kwansei.ac.jp> wrote:
> Hisashi FUKUI wrote:
>
> > Although we usually say "akai desu", "kowai desu", "samui desu",
>
> we って誰？ 貴方の家族？
> 私はこんな「変」な日本語はまず使いませんが・・・。
> 私の身近にいる人も同様。
確かにweという書き方は適切でないかもしれません。
しかし、同様に「こんな『変な』日本語」と決めつける書き方をされるのも止めて
いただきたいと思います。
「形容詞＋です」という言い方は、昭和２７年５月に文部省が発表した「これから
の敬語」において
（引用）
７ 形容詞と「です」
これまで久しく問題となっていた形容詞の結び方 - たとえば「大きいです」
「小さいです」などは、平明・簡素な形として認めてよい。
（引用終わり）
として認められている形であり、「変な」と断定される方が不適切と思います。
> 別に喧嘩を売っている訳ではないのですが、こう言う不正確な一般化は
> 止めて頂きたいものです。sci.lang.japanにポストされている事を
> 考えると特に。
統計をとった訳でもなく、専門家でもありませんので確かに「不正確」ではありま
すが、
福武国語辞典の「です」の項に下記のように記述されております。
（引用）
終助詞がついた「ですね」「ですよ」などは形容詞にもつく。最近では接続が広く
なりつつあり、終助詞を伴わずに「美しいです」などというのが一般的になってき
ている。
（引用終わり）
このことからも、私は「『形容詞＋です』の形は広く使われているしている」と、
一般化して差支えのない事項と考えます。
もちろん、この形を「変」と感じ、使用を差し控える方がおられても自然なことで
すし、それは一向に差支えのないことです。
---
As for the form "adjective + -desu";
As mentioned in my previous post, the form 'adjective -i+ desu' was
approved by Monbu-sho on 1952 in the statement "Korekara no Keigo (The
Honorific Expression From Now On)".
<quote>(translted by me)
7 Adjective And Desu
The usage of the ending form of adjective, which has been left undesided,
for example "ookii-desu" and "chiisai-desu", can be aproved as a plain
form.
<unquote>
I think the usage of the form "adjective + -desu" is now widly spread,
though I have no statistical evidence. One of the _authority_, "Fukugake
Kokuto Dictionary" says:
<quote from the description of 'desu'> (translated by me)
The form followed by suffix such as "desu-ne" and "desu-yo" follows
adjective. Recently the usage The form without such suffix, for example
"utsukushii-desu", is becomeing popular.
<unquote>
That is;
The form "adjective + desu-ne" or "adjective + desu-yo" has been popular
(correct) for a long time (though I don't know how long). The form
"adjective + desu" without such suffix as "ne" and "yo" was incorrect
formerly. But recently the form withoug suffix, for example
"utsukushii-desu" is becoming popular.
I usually say "Hai, ii desu", "Eigo wa muzukashii desu." etc. though I
sometimes feel them awkward. It is reasonable that the older or the
well-educated (with traditonal grammar) person feel them odd. But my
opinion is the usage of this form is now wide-spread and _correct_.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Sean Holland
Oh yah, back to japanese
> Is the avoiding the "-i desu" thing about as important as avoiding ending
> english sentences in prepositions?
> {I never noticed until after seeing Beavis&Butthead}
>
If anything it is even less important. I've heard it from Japanese speakers a
gazillion times. Do yourself a favour and ignore pretty much anything TT has to
say about anything.
Mike Wright
>
> Anthony J. Bryant <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote in message
> news:37BAD3...@indiana.edu...
> > Makoto Doita wrote:
> > >
> > > How could he mispronounce "half" and "tomato"?
> >
> > You ever heard the song, "you say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe"?
> >
> > He was in South Carolina and pronounced them the way they did in
> > Australia. To the SC people, it was "wrong."
> >
> > Tony
It was *North* Carolina, Tony.
> I still remember that all people except gaijin like me down there in
> Nashville pronouced the famous "Sprite", SPRAHT and they liked to laugh the
> pronunciation of the long distance operaters in New York when they hear
> them spoke very clearly, NAIN NAIN for 99 because it sounded so strange to
> the people who'd definilty say NAH.
You meant to type NAHN, didn't you?
> Then came a movie titled Call Miner's Daughter. I think I heard it
> sung -------Call MAHNERS Daughter -----.
Actually, I've been writing about something similar on sci.lang. There are
Southern dialects where the vowels in "lack", "like", and "lock" are all
different, but non-Southerners hear the vowel in "like" as being the same as
either the one in "lock" or the one in "lack". The vowel in "like" in these
dialects is a single vowel, not a diphthong as in most other dialects, and seems
to be a bit higher than the one in "lock", but lower than the one in "lack".
Gerald B Mathias
: Gerald B Mathias wrote:
: > I would like to think that people feel at least as awkward when they write
: > "hareru-dearoo" (which *looks* like "hareru-de aroo") as when they say
: > "akai desu."
: >
: ?????
: hareru here is not an adjective. It's a verb.
I see you really know your grammar, but what's the point you would make?
: 晴れるであろう is quite natural as 赤くなるであろう, at least to me. :)
One would hope so. There is no significant grammatical difference between
them. Now if you had said 晴れるである is quite natural to you,
that would have been a shocker.
Bart
Don Kirkman
<7pigaf$e8s$2...@news-int.gatech.edu>:
>: This one drives me crazy, too. I wish someone who spoke English would
>: make these signs.
>I don't think anyone {maybe some people taking english classes} cares
>enough to think that is wrong
>: "Less" refers to a single quantity; "a liter or less of water." When
>: you're enumerating items, the word must be "fewer"; "ten items or
>: fewer."
>Are you one of those people who gets all bunched up when people refer to
>2000 as the new millennium?
>I'm in band, and one of things that came up today is "play loud"
>Which would correctly be "play loudly", but its not like anyone had any
>misconceptions about what was being asked for
>Oh yah, back to japanese
>Is the avoiding the "-i desu" thing about as important as avoiding ending
>english sentences in prepositions?
>{I never noticed until after seeing Beavis&Butthead}
Yes. 'Hon wa akai desu' is a construction we will not put up with. (Or
is that supposed to be 'up with which we will not put'?
--
Don
Hisashi FUKUI
Atsushi YAGASAKI wrote in message <37BC9959...@kwansei.ac.jp>...
>Hisashi FUKUI wrote:
>
>> Although we usually say "akai desu", "kowai desu", "samui desu",
>
>we って誰？ 貴方の家族？
>私はこんな「変」な日本語はまず使いませんが・・・。
>私の身近にいる人も同様。
>
>止めて頂きたいものです。sci.lang.japanにポストされている事を
>考えると特に。
You don't have to worry about that. Here in this news group
are some reliable native Japanese speakers and some non-
Japanese who are very good at Japanese language. So if I
make a mistake in my post, I'm sure they will correct it
instantly as Annie did with your comment. And readers in this
news group are enough wise to know that native speakers
sometimes make mistakes even about their own language.
Furthermore my former post was at the end of a thread where
people have long argued if "akai desu" is valid or not; that is,
at this moment readers already know this matter is at least an
arguable one and won't swallow my opinion naively.
Don't you know news groups are interactive media for discussion
and communication? If you have an opinion, you can just post it
at any time and share it with all the readers.
Hisashi
Tomoyuki Tanaka
Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>Well, I think Tomoyuki's claim that "akai desu" is ungrammatical
>is suggestive for advanced learners and native Japanese.
very true. when i'm not being careful i say things like
"akai desu" or "10 items or less".
>even in conversation, we sometimes feel a slight awkwardness in
>"akai desu" usage and try to say another way if possible.
exactly my point.
i'll prob. edit the section in the sljTTfaq.
H. Takahashi
>(snip)
> Well, I think Tomoyuki's claim that "akai desu" is ungrammatical
> is suggestive for advanced learners and native Japanese.
> Although we usually say "akai desu", "kowai desu", "samui desu",
> and so on, we completely avoid them in formal writings. And
Is "akai desu" or "samui desu" really ungrammatical?
In Shogakkan's middle-sized Japanese dictionary, "samui
desu" appears as an example of "teinei na katachi" in
the entry of "desu."
I want to be more accurate, but I don't have the dictionary
at hand now, so I can't offer the title or other explanations
written in it.
Hiro Takahashi
Reuben Muns
>How could he mispronounce "half" and "tomato"?
Using a rather crude transliteration, Americans would say "haff"
and "tomayto", whereas an Australian would say "hahf" and
"tomahto".
Reuben
Reuben Muns
>Japanese doesn't have a good translation of either "less" or "fewer." I
>note this just as an excuse to keep this in slj.
When I first began to teach Japanese how to use GE mainframes, I
ran afoul of "ika" and "ijou" and the fact that they were
inclusive.
Reuben
Doug Wickstrom
Muns) excited the ether to say:
This being North Carolina under discussion, "HIGH-uff" and
"tuh-MAY-ter" would be closer to the mark.
I once had a co-worker who tried to explain to me what
"arshtayterz" were. I finally twigged that he meant "Irish
potatoes."
--
Doug Wickstrom
"It's like an Alcatraz around my neck."
--Boston Mayor Thomas Menino on the shortage of city parking spaces
Annie
(Reuben Muns) wrote:
≦ 以下 ika
≧ 以上 ijou
＜ 未満、～より少ない miman, yori sukunai
＞ 超過、超、～より大きい、～を超える chouka, chou, yori ookii, wo koeru
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Annie
> Is "akai desu" or "samui desu" really ungrammatical?
> In Shogakkan's middle-sized Japanese dictionary, "samui
> desu" appears as an example of "teinei na katachi" in
> the entry of "desu."
> I want to be more accurate, but I don't have the dictionary
> at hand now, so I can't offer the title or other explanations
> written in it.
See my post Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 04:39:10 GMT, Message-ID:
<anniek-2008...@gol.com>.
And read the statement "Korekara no Keigo" by Monbu-sho in 1952, if
possible.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Tomoyuki Tanaka
speaking of stupid decrees/proposals by Monbushou (MoE), there
was an extremely unpopular decree/proposal by MoE about 20
years ago.
it proposed simplified verb conjugations and polite forms
typically for use by unintelligent gaijins.
are any details of this available on the net?
In article <anniek-2008...@gol.com>, Annie <ann...@gol.com> wrote:
>
>As for the form "adjective + -desu";
>
>As mentioned in my previous post, the form 'adjective -i+ desu' was
>approved by Monbu-sho on 1952 in the statement "Korekara no Keigo (The
>Honorific Expression From Now On)".
>
--
;;; TANAKA Tomoyuki ("Mr. Tanaka" or "Tomoyuki")
;;; http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html
Don Kirkman
<7pl2d3$qt2$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>:
>In article <7pgkir$eu4$1...@newsgw8.odn.ne.jp>,
>Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>>Well, I think Tomoyuki's claim that "akai desu" is ungrammatical
>>is suggestive for advanced learners and native Japanese.
>>Although we usually say "akai desu", "kowai desu", "samui desu",
>>and so on, we completely avoid them in formal writings. And
>very true. when i'm not being careful i say things like
>"akai desu" or "10 items or less".
Or 'kokugakusha' instead of 'kokugakushu'
It's tough sitting in the catbert seat, isn't it? :-)*
*Catbert = a cartoon character; a server at UC Davis. Catbird =
'Dumetella carolinensus,' one of the mockingbird family (Peterson says
it 'flips tail jauntily. Skulks in undergrowth.').
--
Don
Sean Holland
> speaking of stupid decrees/proposals by Monbushou (MoE), there
> was an extremely unpopular decree/proposal by MoE about 20
> years ago.
>
> it proposed simplified verb conjugations and polite forms
> typically for use by unintelligent gaijins.
>
> are any details of this available on the net?
What are you asking unintelligent gaijins for, you craven doghearted
jack-a-nape.
This TT is the Indiana one. It seems even worse than the UCDavis one.
Lei Tanabe
>
>私はこんな「変」な日本語はまず使いませんが・・・。
>私の身近にいる人も同様。
I am one of "we".
But haven't you ever heard someone around you say "kyou wa samui desu nee."
"kono mise wa yasui desu yo." "sore wa nai desu yo" etc?
I think Hisashi's explanation was excellent although I, myself use
"adjective + desu" even in my writing.
Probably that's my own style of writing. I like simple, straightforward
way.
Lei
muchan
Semaruuu, Shocker, jigoku-no guundaaan...
(huruinaa, wananeedaroonaa..)
muchan
muchan
Semaruuu, Shocker, jigoku-no guundaaan...
(huruinaa, wakaneedaroonaa..)
muchan
muchan
Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
>
> In article <7pgkir$eu4$1...@newsgw8.odn.ne.jp>,
> Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> >
> >Well, I think Tomoyuki's claim that "akai desu" is ungrammatical
> >is suggestive for advanced learners and native Japanese.
> >Although we usually say "akai desu", "kowai desu", "samui desu",
> >and so on, we completely avoid them in formal writings. And
>
> very true. when i'm not being careful i say things like
> "akai desu" or "10 items or less".
>
Here is written evidence, that TT was talking "prescriptive grammar".
So, where words like "unintelligent gaijin" comes from?
--- from unintelligent mind?
muchan
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> I'm in school now (4 AP classes!) and have not really had time to follow the
> discussion closely...if "akai desu" is wrong, or even not-quite-right, what is
> the better way to phrase it?
Try "akaku sourou."
Tony
Charles Eicher
says...
>
>I'm in school now (4 AP classes!) and have not really had time to follow the
>discussion closely...if "akai desu" is wrong, or even not-quite-right, what is
>the better way to phrase it?
"akai desu" is perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with it. But there IS
something wrong with the person who keeps insisting that it's incorrect.
Sean Holland
> I'm in school now (4 AP classes!) and have not really had time to follow the
> discussion closely...if "akai desu" is wrong, or even not-quite-right, what is
> the better way to phrase it?
If you are speaking informally just say "akai". It stands alone perfectly
well as a grammatical sentence of one word. It can end a sentence just as if it
were a verb.
If you are speaking in sentences that end in desu/masu forms, then go ahead
and say "akai desu". Most native speakers say it all the time, and the Japanese
Ministry of Education has officially approved it, as has been pointed out in this
thread.
Emily Horner
discussion closely...if "akai desu" is wrong, or even not-quite-right, what is
the better way to phrase it?
-The Sewing Minion
Tomoyuki Tanaka
i had 3 AP classes.
are you taking Jp in high school?
[insert here: the std blurb on descriptive vs.
prescriptive functions of grammar.
-- grammar as natural history vs. grammar as law.]
many Jp people instinctively/subconsciously
avoid "akai desu" by
makka desu.
akairo ga kirei desu.
kireina aka desu.
akai iro desune.
akai iro wo siteimasu.
...
Richard Thieme
>
(snip)
>
> makka desu.
> akairo ga kirei desu.
> kireina aka desu.
> akai iro desune.
> akai iro wo siteimasu.
> ...
Or what about "aka desu" as in "are ha aka desu" spoken to me by a
lawyer about Yokohama Law Office commenting on why the Kanagawa police
didn't move very aggressively when Sakamoto was kidnapped (Sakamoto
worked for Yokohama Law Office, which was, and for all I know still is,
counsel to the Communist Party).
Late at night and trying to avoid another long job.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
(and to Emily Horner, good luck to you. You sound like you have a lot
more on the ball than I had when I was your age)
Florian Eichhorn
TT is just a pseudonyme.
Looks like its time to tell that Godzilla for some smart reaction.
F
--
It is neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never
question anything. (Joseph Heller)
Ross Klatte
>Date: Mon, 23 August 1999 11:47 AM EDT
>Semaruuu, Shocker, jigoku-no guundaaan...
> (huruinaa, wananeedaroonaa..)
Say, who was that masked man, anyway?
Philip Brown
>"Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
>
>> Makoto Doita wrote:
>> >
>> > How could he mispronounce "half" and "tomato"?
>> He was in South Carolina and pronounced them the way they did in
>> Australia. To the SC people, it was "wrong."
>
>No, but I got it.
>What about 'half'? 'hauf' instead of 'ha-f'? (grrrr, It's rather
>difficult to express what want to say with 26 plus some characters...)
I think the 'merkin you are looking for is
"hey-yuf"
:-)
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