Kenka No Ato Wa
Sean Holland
(snip)
> The song begins:
>
> Kenka no ato wa kanashii na
>
> namida ga ippai kobore chau
> ^^^^
> hontoo wa tottemo suki na noni
> ^^^^^^^
> kirai da nante icchatte
> ^^^^^^^^
>
> "chau" sounds like a verb but I can't seem to find it anywhere.
> And if it were a verb, wouldn't "kobore" be "koborete?" Is it some sort
> of ending for "kobore" that I haven't learned yet?
Chau is informal "shimau". Adding the auxiliary verb to the verb stem is
also informal.
> "Tottemo" was easy to find. The trouble is that "toru" has so
> many different meanings I am not certain which one is intended here.
This is just "totemo" with a doubled consonant. Like writing "veeeery"
> Is "icchatte" related to "chau?" Chau-ing once?
Again, it's informal, kids' language for "itteshimatte"
> The first refrain goes:
>
> hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
>
> What is "hoppen?" I also can't find "chu" anywhere, although if
> it is a variant of "chuu" it would make sense in context - saying that
> after the quarrel one should seek the "middle" ground. Also, does anyone
> have any idea why the word "chu" was written in Romanji with furigana?
I don't know what "hoppen" is.
> The second refrain goes:
>
> hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
> hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
> hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
>
> What is "miteru?" If it is anything like "miseru" it might make
> sense: "honorable Mister Sun becomes visible from that time on."
"Miteru" is "miteiru": -te form of miru + iru.
> The second verse begins:
>
> kenka no ato wa samishii na
>
> What is "samishii?"
The same as sabishii.
> The third refrain begins:
>
> hoppen ni chu TONPOPO ga miteru kara
>
> The "tonpopo" is written in katakana. I am drawing a blank.
> Anyone have a clue?
Are you sure it isn't "tanpopo"?
> Chris, who literally had this song running through his head in his sleep
> last night.
Sean Holland
"koborechau" is "koboreteshimau".
Charles Eicher
>
>Ohayo minna-san,
>
> I finished my second semester of Japanese last month. My third
>semester doesn't begin until the Fall. So I have assigned myself some
>homework over the summer to keep my progress going and avoid backsliding.
A wise idea. I remember when I was in 1st year classes, even a long weekend
vacation, and it would seem like you had to start over from scratch.
>One such project involves a "Sesame Street" type CD aimed at Japanese
>preschoolers. There are 12 songs, which I figured would be easy to learn
>since they are aimed at little kids.
You might think they would be easy, but there have been many warnings about
trying to learn from children's stories/songs/etc. They contain a huge amount of
material that is known to every little kid in Japan, but not to foreign-language
learners.
>
> The song begins:
>
>Kenka no ato wa kanashii na
>
>namida ga ippai kobore chau
> ^^^^
>hontoo wa tottemo suki na noni
> ^^^^^^^
>kirai da nante icchatte
> ^^^^^^^^
>
> "chau" sounds like a verb but I can't seem to find it anywhere.
>And if it were a verb, wouldn't "kobore" be "koborete?" Is it some sort
>of ending for "kobore" that I haven't learned yet?
chau is a colloquial version of "shimau." "chatte" is "shimatte"..
Kobore is "overflowing" or "scattering".
> "Tottemo" was easy to find. The trouble is that "toru" has so
>many different meanings I am not certain which one is intended here.
Are you sure that its "tottemo" and not "totemo"..? Totemo is "completely/very"
which would fit in this context.
>
> Is "icchatte" related to "chau?" Chau-ing once?
Itte shimau. Which "iru" is intended, I leave for you to figure out.
>
> The first refrain goes:
>
>hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
>hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
>hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
>
> What is "hoppen?" I also can't find "chu" anywhere, although if
>it is a variant of "chuu" it would make sense in context - saying that
>after the quarrel one should seek the "middle" ground. Also, does anyone
>have any idea why the word "chu" was written in Romanji with furigana?
You stumped me on this one. No idea what "hoppen" is, or why "chu" is in romaji.
>
> The second refrain goes:
>
>hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
>hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
>hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
>
> What is "miteru?" If it is anything like "miseru" it might make
>sense: "honorable Mister Sun becomes visible from that time on."
Mitte iru. Another colloquialism.
>
> The second verse begins:
>
>kenka no ato wa samishii na
>
> What is "samishii?"
A variation on prononciation of "sabishii"
> The third refrain begins:
>
>hoppen ni chu TONPOPO ga miteru kara
>
> The "tonpopo" is written in katakana. I am drawing a blank.
>Anyone have a clue?
Maybe its "tanpopo" which would be "dandelion."
Sean Holland
>
> In article <7k1if7$sv5$1...@news.cudenver.edu>, cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu says...
> > The first refrain goes:
> >
> >hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> >hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> >hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
> >
> > What is "hoppen?" I also can't find "chu" anywhere, although if
> >it is a variant of "chuu" it would make sense in context - saying that
> >after the quarrel one should seek the "middle" ground. Also, does anyone
> >have any idea why the word "chu" was written in Romanji with furigana?
>
> You stumped me on this one. No idea what "hoppen" is, or why "chu" is in romaji.
>
> >
> > The second refrain goes:
> >
> >hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
> >hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
> >hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
> >
> > What is "miteru?" If it is anything like "miseru" it might make
> >sense: "honorable Mister Sun becomes visible from that time on."
Ok, I think I've got it. "Hoppen" is hoppe (cheek) and "chu" is baby talk to a
kiss, so the sun saw someone getting a kiss on the cheek. In a further refrain
it was a tanpopo (dandelion) that saw the kiss.
Chris
I finished my second semester of Japanese last month. My third
semester doesn't begin until the Fall. So I have assigned myself some
homework over the summer to keep my progress going and avoid backsliding.
One such project involves a "Sesame Street" type CD aimed at Japanese
preschoolers. There are 12 songs, which I figured would be easy to learn
since they are aimed at little kids.
Translating the lyrics to the Japanese "Sesame Street" CD is
turning out to be harder than I expected. I began translating the first
song but soon found that many of the words weren't in the Merriam Webster
J-E Dictionary. I tried a couple of large dictionaries from the library
and found a couple more words but still drew a lot of blanks.
So I picked what looked like the easiest song, #10. I think I
have the gist of it, but there are some key words I haven't been able to
find in any dictionary. Hopefully someone can help me?
The song begins:
Kenka no ato wa kanashii na
namida ga ippai kobore chau
^^^^
hontoo wa tottemo suki na noni
^^^^^^^
kirai da nante icchatte
^^^^^^^^
"chau" sounds like a verb but I can't seem to find it anywhere.
And if it were a verb, wouldn't "kobore" be "koborete?" Is it some sort
of ending for "kobore" that I haven't learned yet?
"Tottemo" was easy to find. The trouble is that "toru" has so
many different meanings I am not certain which one is intended here.
Is "icchatte" related to "chau?" Chau-ing once?
The first refrain goes:
hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
What is "hoppen?" I also can't find "chu" anywhere, although if
it is a variant of "chuu" it would make sense in context - saying that
after the quarrel one should seek the "middle" ground. Also, does anyone
have any idea why the word "chu" was written in Romanji with furigana?
The second refrain goes:
hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
What is "miteru?" If it is anything like "miseru" it might make
sense: "honorable Mister Sun becomes visible from that time on."
The second verse begins:
kenka no ato wa samishii na
What is "samishii?"
The third refrain begins:
hoppen ni chu TONPOPO ga miteru kara
The "tonpopo" is written in katakana. I am drawing a blank.
Anyone have a clue?
Funatsu Kunihiro
> >
> > What is "hoppen?" I also can't find "chu" anywhere, although if
> > it is a variant of "chuu" it would make sense in context - saying that
> > after the quarrel one should seek the "middle" ground. Also, does anyone
> > have any idea why the word "chu" was written in Romanji with furigana?
>
This is "hoppe"(cheek), informal "hoho" (頬).
--
Funatsu Kunihiro mailto:fu...@joe.co.jp
Jim Breen
My Kodansha seems to say that "hoppe" is babytalk (youjigo).I could be
misreading the entry:
頬っぺ [ほっぺ] ★ 《幼児語》ほお。ほっぺた。<用例> 赤い～。
--
Jim Breen School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
Email: j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au Monash University
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton VIC 3168 Australia
P: +61 3 9905 3298 F: 9905 3574 ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Funatsu Kunihiro
> My Kodansha seems to say that "hoppe" is babytalk (youjigo).I could be
> misreading the entry:
> 頬っぺ [ほっぺ] ★ 《幼児語》ほお。ほっぺた。<用例> 赤い～。
My Japanaese is now going to influenced by the conversation
between my wife and my 2 year old boy.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Funatsu Kunihiro <fu...@joe.co.jp> wrote in message
news:7k2509$28f$1...@nn-tk003.ocn.ad.jp...
> Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:7k2033$tbk$2...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
> > My Kodansha seems to say that "hoppe" is babytalk (youjigo).I could be
> > misreading the entry:
> > 頬っぺ [ほっぺ] ★ 《幼児語》ほお。ほっぺた。<用例> 赤い～。
>
> My Japanaese is now going to influenced by the conversation
> between my wife and my 2 year old boy.
Perhaps he could have a flame war with the formidable Master Bullock?
Jeff Schrepfer
> hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
>
> it is a variant of "chuu" it would make sense in context - saying that
> after the quarrel one should seek the "middle" ground. Also, does anyone
> have any idea why the word "chu" was written in Romanji with furigana?
'hoppen ni chu' means 'a peck on the cheek.' hoppen means cheek and chu
is an onomatopoeia (giongo) for the sound that a kiss makes. It is also
used as in 'chu shite!' which is a cute (girly) way of saying 'give me a
kiss!'
Jeff
--
=[]= You have received a message from:
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|| ________________
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\ / |________________|
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/ __ \
\ / Email: Je...@Schrepfer.com
\______/ Homepage: http://www.Schrepfer.com
Gerald B Mathias
: In article <7k1if7$sv5$1...@news.cudenver.edu>, cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu says...
: > Is "icchatte" related to "chau?" Chau-ing once?
: Itte shimau. Which "iru" is intended, I leave for you to figure out.
I don't know if Charles was playing a little joke here or what, but
everyone so far has let it ride.
For cddugan, who deserves a little better, let's clear it up.
"kirai-da nan-te itchatte" means "Saying you don't like me!"
The "iru" here is "iu."
"nante" is used very much like the quotative/nominalizer "-tte," a cousin
to "-to."
Bart
Sean Holland
> 'hoppen ni chu' means 'a peck on the cheek.' hoppen means cheek and chu
> is an onomatopoeia (giongo) for the sound that a kiss makes. It is also
> used as in 'chu shite!' which is a cute (girly) way of saying 'give me a
> kiss!'
>
I have long been acquainted with "hoppe" and "hoho" as words for cheek, but
not "hoppen". Have I been hearing people say this all along without realizing
there is a final "n"?
Chris
: Jeff Schrepfer wrote:
No. It is my fault. I typed it wrong. It should have read
"hoppe ne chu." Sorry!
I also blew it when I read "tanpopo" as "tonpopo."
Thanks for your help, everyone!
Chris
Jon Stern
If 'hoppen' means 'cheek,' I would guess 'hoppen ni chu' means
'a kiss on the cheek.' I believe 'chu' ("チュッ！") is the
onomatopoeic 'word' that represents the sound made by a kiss.
Thus, 'a kiss on the cheek, after the fight.'
Jon Stern
<kay...@snet.net>
Sean Holland
> My son is a toddler, and at the moment my wife is cooking noodles for
> him. He calls these `noo-noos' as in ``mmm, tasty noo-noos''. He has
> other names like this for things like bitesize shredded wheat which
> somehow became `boo-boos' and another breakfast cereal called
> `fruitibix' which became `sixabix' (he has a rare fascination with
> numbers and counting). Similarly somehow melon became `lemon'. This
> kind of stuff is what I would call `baby talk' in English which is
> maybe slightly different from `youjigo' in Japanese.
>
> --
Each of my three kids spoke Japanese before English, so I had the
opportunity to hear a variety of Japanese baby-talk and "kid words". A
few that come to mind: "gajaimo" for "jagaimo", "tokoromoshi" for
"tomorokoshi", "tetebi" for "terebi" and so on. It helped my often shaky
self-esteem in Japanese to be able to confidently correct the Japanese of
a native speaker (albeit a two year old native speaker).
Now it's none of business, and I know how people (including myself)
often react negatively to suggestions about child-rearing, but I'll stick
my neck out here and urge anyone who is a member of a multi-lingual
marriage to make every effort to have each parent speak to the children
in his or her native tongue. The fantastic opportunity for the children
to grow up with two native languages is not one to be missed. I found
that my kids, while they spoke to me in Japanese for the first few years
of their lives, could easily understand my English, and when the time
came for them to function in English it took very little time (a matter
of a few months) for their English to reach a level indistinguishable
from their native English speaking peers.
Charles Eicher
>
>Charles Eicher (cei...@inav.net) wrote:
>: In article <7k1if7$sv5$1...@news.cudenver.edu>, cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
>says...
>: >
>: > Is "icchatte" related to "chau?" Chau-ing once?
>
>: Itte shimau. Which "iru" is intended, I leave for you to figure out.
>
>I don't know if Charles was playing a little joke here or what, but
>everyone so far has let it ride.
Oops, my mistake. That's one of the problems with this particular -te form,
"itte" which could be iu, iku, or iru (I think.. or am I having another spasm of
brain fog?)
Jim Breen
>>Jim Breen wrote:
>>> My Kodansha seems to say that "hoppe" is babytalk (youjigo).I could be
>>> misreading the entry:
>>> 頬っぺ [ほっぺ] ★ 《幼児語》ほお。ほっぺた。<用例> 赤い～。
>>I'm sorry for my off-topic question, but would anyone tell me if
>>baby talk and youjigo are the same?
>>When I see the word "youji," an infant (aroud, say, five years old)
>>comes to my mind.
>>Of course, "youji" may include a baby, but "baby talk" and "youjigo"
>>don't seem to match. (to me, I mean.)
Sorry if "babytalk" is a bad gloss for 幼児語. In fact EDICT has "words
children use" for 幼児語. The Kodansha & Kenkyusha I have online both
say "babytalk", but I think EDICT's version is better. 8-)}
>>And I'm not sure "hoppe" is youjigo, as Kodansha says.
>>I'm not challenging Kodansha, but I often hear an adult say "hoppe,"
>>I suppose.
>>Am I just misunderstanding?
What do other Japanese-first-language people think about this?
In English a number of kids words persist into "adult" language. I guess
it's the same in Japanese.
BTW, is there a difference between 頬っぺた and 頬っぺ?
Sean Holland
> Oops, my mistake. That's one of the problems with this particular -te form,
> "itte" which could be iu, iku, or iru (I think.. or am I having another spasm of
> brain fog?)
Only if the iru you have in mind is the one that is irimasu in -masu form. The
other iru would be ite. (I know you know, but those who don't know should know
so I'm letting them know, you know?)
H. Takahashi
> (snip)
>
> My Kodansha seems to say that "hoppe" is babytalk (youjigo).I could be
> misreading the entry:
> 頬っぺ [ほっぺ] ★ 《幼児語》ほお。ほっぺた。<用例> 赤い～。
>
I'm sorry for my off-topic question, but would anyone tell me if
baby talk and youjigo are the same?
When I see the word "youji," an infant (aroud, say, five years old)
comes to my mind.
Of course, "youji" may include a baby, but "baby talk" and "youjigo"
don't seem to match. (to me, I mean.)
And I'm not sure "hoppe" is youjigo, as Kodansha says.
I'm not challenging Kodansha, but I often hear an adult say "hoppe,"
I suppose.
Am I just misunderstanding?
Hiro Takahashi,
Jeff Schrepfer
few years and I've often thought that this is how I would like to tackle
the goal of raising them bilingual and not missing the incredible
opportunity they have to learn 2 languages but it's nice to have my
conjectures reinforced by someone with real experience.
Jeff
--
Lion
> > Ben Bullock wrote:
> >
> >
> > Each of my three kids spoke Japanese before English, so I had the
> > opportunity to hear a variety of Japanese baby-talk and "kid words". A
> > few that come to mind: "gajaimo" for "jagaimo", "tokoromoshi" for
> > "tomorokoshi", "tetebi" for "terebi" and so on.
tetebi instead of terebi ? Cool, now i understand better why the little
girl in 'Tonari no Totoro' says 'Totoro' instead of 'Torolu' (Troll).
--
= Lion =
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion.
Let's not argue about who killed who."
Allan
<<SNIP>>
> What do other Japanese-first-language people think about this?
>
> In English a number of kids words persist into "adult" language. I guess
> it's the same in Japanese.
Like "bye-bye" ?
Allan.
Allan
<<SNIP>>
>
>
> "nante" is used very much like the quotative/nominalizer "-tte," a cousin
> to "-to."
I'd wondered about that one. I'd been writing it off as a vague "that sort of thing"
atom. What's the
real meaning and feeling to it?
Allan.
Tomoyuki Tanaka
In article <7k43lm$u3o$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>,
Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>
>
>>>And I'm not sure "hoppe" is youjigo, as Kodansha says.
i'd say hoppe is a youjigo word.
more "canonical" youjigo words are
nyan nyan. wan wan. buu buu.
anyo.
>
>In English a number of kids words persist into "adult"
> language. I guess it's the same in Japanese.
yes. in exactly the same way.
sort of like ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny and
3 layers of the human brain.
quite Freudian. Desmond Morris "Manwatching" comments how
lovers take turns acting like a parent and a baby, using baby
talk.
muchan
>
>
> I'm sorry for my off-topic question, but would anyone tell me if
> baby talk and youjigo are the same?
> When I see the word "youji," an infant (aroud, say, five years old)
> comes to my mind.
> Of course, "youji" may include a baby, but "baby talk" and "youjigo"
> don't seem to match. (to me, I mean.)
>
/Yoojigo/ is not colloquial word. May be used in dictionary for
classification, or as to notice is's not used in ordinary (adult's)
conversation. Meaning is same, but if you seek "baby talk" equivalent
in less oficial word, may be "akachan-kotoba"?
> And I'm not sure "hoppe" is youjigo, as Kodansha says.
> I'm not challenging Kodansha, but I often hear an adult say "hoppe,"
> I suppose.
> Am I just misunderstanding?
>
/hoppe/ or /hoppeta/ is used as colloquial word for /hoho/ or /hoo/.
It can be labeled as /koogotai/, /hanashi-kotoba/, spoken word, but
not necessary /yoojigo/ or "baby" talk. At least, /hoppeta/ is used
between elders, too, if not official conversation. (/buubuu/ is baby
talk, and not used in elder's conversation. :)
muchan
> Hiro Takahashi,
muchan
>
> "kirai-da nan-te itchatte" means "Saying you don't like me!"
>
> The "iru" here is "iu."
>
> to "-to."
>
ik.u (to go) --> itte-shimau --> itchau, itchimau
itte-shimatta --> itchatta, itchimatta
i.u (tosay) --> itte-shimau --> itchau, itchimau
itte-shimatta --> itchatta, itchimatta
/-chimau/ version may be very regional. (Edo, Tokyo)
Now I wonder if
i.ru (to stay) --> ite-shimau --> ichau, ichimau
ite-shimatta --> ichatta, ichimatta
are used somewhere. In my case I'd passively understand it sans problem,
but I think I'll never say it myself. Or is it just semanticly
impossible/improbable?
muchan
Annie
I think "hoppe" is a 'youji-go'(baby-talk) of "hoppeta".
I don't think "hoppeta" is a 'youji-go'. It's a colloquial word, I
think.
My kokugo-jiten (Fukutake Kokugo Jiten) says:
'hoppeta' - [zoku-go] hoho no atari
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Jeff Schrepfer
from 'nani.' It can mean 'nani to iu' and is used emphatically like:
nante kirei an yuuhi da ne! = What a beautiful sunset!
Kono mizu ha nante tsumetai n darou? = How cold this water is!
This same nante can also be used to ask a question but emphatically:
kare ni nante itta no? = what (on earth) did you say to him?
The second nante doesn't come from nani but from 'na no' (I think) but
is still used to lend emphasis:
benkyou nante kirai! = I hate studying (more emphatic than benkyou ha
kirai)
omae ga uso wo tsuku nante shinjirarenai = I can't believe you would
tell a lie.
I'm not sure if the te is some kind of particle by itself or if it is a
contraction of 'to itte.' Maybe one of the grammar bookies can answer.
Anyway, hope this helps.
Jeff
Allan wrote:
>
> Gerald B Mathias wrote:
> <<SNIP>>
>
> >
> >
> > "nante" is used very much like the quotative/nominalizer "-tte," a cousin
> > to "-to."
>
> I'd wondered about that one. I'd been writing it off as a vague "that sort of thing"
> atom. What's the
> real meaning and feeling to it?
>
> Allan.
--
ray steiner
Basic Japanese
column of Mangajin, Issue 64. This is an excellent article on verbal
contractions of this sort
with lots of examples.
Yoroshiku,
Ray Steiner
H. Takahashi
>
> H. Takahashi <thti...@urban.ne.jp> wrote:
> (snip)
> >>I'm sorry for my off-topic question, but would anyone tell me if
> >>baby talk and youjigo are the same?
>
> Sorry if "babytalk" is a bad gloss for 幼児語. In fact EDICT has "words
> children use" for 幼児語. The Kodansha & Kenkyusha I have online both
> say "babytalk", but I think EDICT's version is better. 8-)}
Thank you for your comment;"words children use" seems to fit perfectly.
> >>And I'm not sure "hoppe" is youjigo, as Kodansha says.
> >>I'm not challenging Kodansha, but I often hear an adult say "hoppe,"
> >>I suppose.
> >>Am I just misunderstanding?
>
> What do other Japanese-first-language people think about this?
I'll ask some tomorrow.
I too want to hear opinions of other Japanese speakers.
> In English a number of kids words persist into "adult" language. I guess
> it's the same in Japanese.
>
> BTW, is there a difference between 頬っぺた and 頬っぺ?
I see no difference of meaning/usage between "hoppeta" and "hoppe."
"Hoppeta" sounds slightly colloquial to me.
Hiro Takahashi,
H. Takahashi
Judging from the posts (including Jim's), "youjigo" seems to cover
somewhat broader age groups than "baby talk."
Hiro Takahashi, someone who used to call an elevator "ebere-ta-"
Funatsu Kunihiro
> I think "hoppe" is a 'youji-go'(baby-talk) of "hoppeta".
> I don't think "hoppeta" is a 'youji-go'. It's a colloquial word, I
> think.
You really think so? I do not agree.
"Hoppeta" and "hoppe" are both colloquial words, or both 'youji-go'.
I don't recognize the difference between them.
I know another word "hootan" for the same meaning.
Annie
> There are actually two nantes. The first is nante where the 'nan' comes
> from 'nani.' It can mean 'nani to iu' and is used emphatically like:
>
> nante kirei an yuuhi da ne! = What a beautiful sunset!
> Kono mizu ha nante tsumetai n darou? = How cold this water is!
This 'nante' is an adverb.
> This same nante can also be used to ask a question but emphatically:
>
> kare ni nante itta no? = what (on earth) did you say to him?
I don't think it is used emphatically. I think it is
a pronoun 'nani'(what) +
'kaku-joshi'(a particle which follows to noun or noun phrase)
'te'(changed from 'to')
That is:
"Kare ni nan to itta no?" (What did you say to him?)
"'......' to ii mashita." (I said "....".)
> The second nante doesn't come from nani but from 'na no' (I think) but
> is still used to lend emphasis:
What 'na no' means?
> benkyou nante kirai! = I hate studying (more emphatic than benkyou ha
> kirai)
> omae ga uso wo tsuku nante shinjirarenai = I can't believe you would
> tell a lie.
This 'nante' is a 'fuku-joshi' which means a particle the function of
which resembles that of an adverb. This 'nante' can be substitued by
other particle such as 'to' 'wa' etc.. but it adds other meanings.
"Benkyou nante kirai" can be substitued by "Benkyou wa kirai", but it
adds a kind of emphasise.
"Omae ga uso wo tsuku nante shinjirarenai." can be substitued by "Omae
ga uso wo tsuku towa shinjirarenai.", but it adds the expression that
the fact is a surprise.
"Kirai da nante icchatte" can be substitued by "Kirai da to icchatte",
but it adds the expression that though I don't to want to say "kirai" I
said....
>
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Annie
> Annie <ann...@gol.com> wrote in message news:1dtft7i.1nuf4e51g9fry8N@tc-1-169.
kyoto.gol.ne.jp...
> > I think "hoppe" is a 'youji-go'(baby-talk) of "hoppeta".
> > I don't think "hoppeta" is a 'youji-go'. It's a colloquial word, I
> > think.
>
> You really think so? I do not agree.
> "Hoppeta" and "hoppe" are both colloquial words, or both 'youji-go'.
> I don't recognize the difference between them.
I don't say 'hoho' or 'hoo' in everyday conversation except the words
like 'hoobeni' or 'hoobone' and the ideoms such as 'hoo ga kokeru'.
I usually say 'hoppeta'. I've never thought it is a 'youji-go'.
What do you say when something to eat is very delicious?
Don't you say 'Hoppeta ga ochisouna hodo oishii.'?
As for 'hoppe', it sounds curious (in Japanese, 'aho-mitai') for an
adult to say 'hoppe' for me.
> I know another word "hootan" for the same meaning.
I've never heard 'hootan'.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Mark Bradford
> tetebi instead of terebi ? Cool, now i understand better why the little
> girl in 'Tonari no Totoro' says 'Totoro' instead of 'Torolu' (Troll).
Eh? Granted, I've only seen the dubbed version, but about 837,429 times
(my toddler loves Totoro and Kiki's), and to my eyes at least, Totoro
himself clearly mouths "To To Ro" when Mei asks him who he is. So I
have to wonder about a link to "tororu." At least, I don't think of
trolls when I think of totoro-beasts. Do you have independent knowledge
that that's the source of the name?
-- Mark Bradford (dino...@uswest.net) <> To err is human, to moo
bovine.
"It is good to have an open mind, but not at both ends."
Chris
: > "nante" is used very much like the quotative/nominalizer "-tte," a cousin
: > to "-to."
: I'd wondered about that one. I'd been writing it off as a vague "that sort of
: thing" atom. What's the real meaning and feeling to it?
It implies a degree of criticism, as in "how COULD you DO that
sort of thing???"
Chris
Chris
: >hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
This makes sense. Any idea why "chu" was written in romanji with
furigana?
Chris
Prince Richard Kaminski
Chris <cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu> wrote in message
news:7k912v$9fd$4...@news.cudenver.edu...
> Jon Stern (kay...@snet.net) wrote:
> : >hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
>
> : If 'hoppen' means 'cheek,' I would guess 'hoppen ni chu' means
> : onomatopoeic 'word' that represents the sound made by a kiss.
> : Thus, 'a kiss on the cheek, after the fight.'
>
> This makes sense. Any idea why "chu" was written in romanji with
> furigana?
roomaji or "romaji" for short. (losing battle, stage 225)
Jim Breen
>>Chris <cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu> wrote:
>>> This makes sense. Any idea why "chu" was written in romanji with
>>> furigana?
>>roomaji or "romaji" for short. (losing battle, stage 225)
I prefer "ro-maji" because my FEP software converts the "-" into a chouon,
thus resulting in the correct kana. (also a losing battle, but I try.)
Prince Richard Kaminski
Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:7k9dbe$h04$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
> Prince Richard Kaminski <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>Chris <cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu> wrote:
> >>> This makes sense. Any idea why "chu" was written in romanji with
> >>> furigana?
>
> >>roomaji or "romaji" for short. (losing battle, stage 225)
>
> I prefer "ro-maji" because my FEP software converts the "-" into a chouon,
> thus resulting in the correct kana. (also a losing battle, but I try.)
Yes, sorry, I should have explained I was referring only to the usage in
English, not for Japanese entry or actually in Japanese. Romaji with a short
o would be incorrect in Japanese, but is commonly used in English, just as
"natto" is used instead of "nattou" and "Tokyo" instead of "Toukyou".
Gerald B Mathias
Yes, and the "sort of thing" is important. There's probably a "nado" or
"nanzo/nanka" hidden in the "nan(te)."
Bart
--
What would you say to someone who gets all upset when people
don't punctuate their questions or exclamations ?
"Hey , get a life !" is what I'd say . --Buck A . Yarrow
Don Kirkman
<7k919g$9fd$5...@news.cudenver.edu>:
>Allan (law...@ihug.co.nz) wrote:
>: Gerald B Mathias wrote:
>: <<SNIP>>
>: > "nante" is used very much like the quotative/nominalizer "-tte," a cousin
>: > to "-to."
>: I'd wondered about that one. I'd been writing it off as a vague "that sort of
>: thing" atom. What's the real meaning and feeling to it?
> It implies a degree of criticism, as in "how COULD you DO that
>sort of thing???"
One scholar of Japanese (I won't vouch for his accuracy or reputation)
says the uses of 'nante' are:
1> As an equivalent of 'nado' - "such as"
Tabemono ya nomimono nante . . .
2> As an equivalent of 'nan to'
Nante iu namae
3> As an equivalent of 'nan to iu'
Nante namae
Combining his scholarship with my meager knowledge, I'd tend to think
the 'degree of criticism' element is contextual and not grammatical.
--
Don
H. Takahashi
>
> Funatsu Kunihiro <fu...@joe.co.jp> wrote:
>
> > Annie <ann...@gol.com> wrote in message news:1dtft7i.1nuf4e51g9fry8N@tc-1-169.
> kyoto.gol.ne.jp...
> > > I think "hoppe" is a 'youji-go'(baby-talk) of "hoppeta".
> > > I don't think "hoppeta" is a 'youji-go'. It's a colloquial word, I
> > > think.
> >
> > You really think so? I do not agree.
> > "Hoppeta" and "hoppe" are both colloquial words, or both 'youji-go'.
> > I don't recognize the difference between them.
"Hoppeta" and "hoppe" are almost identical to me,too.
But today I checked all the Japanese dictionaries around me, and,
to my surprise, found all of them (five or so) say "hoppe" is youjigo.
(Curiously, no dictionary gives the entry of youjigo. . How do
dictionaries define a word as youjigo or not?)
>
> (snip)
> As for 'hoppe', it sounds curious (in Japanese, 'aho-mitai') for an
> adult to say 'hoppe' for me.
This is a complete surprise to me. I never thought my saying "hoppe"
could be childish or sound curious.
>
> > I know another word "hootan" for the same meaning.
>
> I've never heard 'hootan'.
What a coincidence! Today a woman from Yamaguchi Prefecture told me
that her father says "hootan."(But she herself doesn't.)
That was the first time I heard the word "hootan" in my life.
Hiro Takahashi, in confusion...
Gerald B Mathias
: (Curiously, no dictionary gives the entry of youjigo. . How do
The little red Shinmeikai Kokugojiten gives (apologies in advance for the
roomaji), "[<--taiyoojigo] gengo.shuutoku.ki-ni aru yooji-ni taishite
otona-ga, hatsuonshi.yasui-yooni-to-no koryo-kara ataeru katakoto-ni nita
hyoogen. 'yoshiyoshi'-o 'yochiyochi, 'inu'-o 'wanwan'-to yuu-nado."
But I guess Shinmura Izuru didn't know the word when he compiled
_Koojien_.
Jim Breen
>>(Curiously, no dictionary gives the entry of youjigo.
Both my Kodansha and Kenkyusha have 幼児語, with the meaning "babytalk".
As I mentioned earlier, I prefer the "words children use" in EDICT.
H. Takahashi
> : (Curiously, no dictionary gives the entry of youjigo. . How do
> : dictionaries define a word as youjigo or not?)
Gerald B Mathias wrote:
> The little red Shinmeikai Kokugojiten gives (apologies in advance for the
> roomaji), "[<--taiyoojigo] gengo.shuutoku.ki-ni aru yooji-ni taishite
> otona-ga, hatsuonshi.yasui-yooni-to-no koryo-kara ataeru katakoto-ni nita
> hyoogen. 'yoshiyoshi'-o 'yochiyochi, 'inu'-o 'wanwan'-to yuu-nado."
Jim Breen wrote:
> Both my Kodansha and Kenkyusha have 幼児語, with the meaning "babytalk".
> As I mentioned earlier, I prefer the "words children use" in EDICT.
Thank you for your information, Bart and Jim(again).
Yesterday I was a little influenced by Clintonesque semantics--It
depends on what you mean by "youjigo."
So I wanted to clarify the definition of youjigo.
Now I know that editors of dictionaries regard "hoppe" as a word
"given by adults in order that children can easily pronounce and
use."
I'm not yet persuaded that "hoppe" is youjigo, but probably they
have some good reason to put "hoppe" in the genre of youjigo.
Thanks agains,
Hiro Takahashi
Michael Rubida
I saw your post and thought that I might be able to help:
> Kenka no ato wa kanashii na
> namida ga ippai kobore chau
> hontoo wa tottemo suki na noni
> kirai da nante icchatte
> "chau" sounds like a verb but I can't seem to find it anywhere.
> And if it were a verb, wouldn't "kobore" be "koborete?" Is it some sort
> of ending for "kobore" that I haven't learned yet?
"chau" is the contracted (and informal) version of "shimau". In this form,
the "te" ending is dropped from the verb and added to the stem of the verb.
Ex: tabete shimau = tabechau. This way of speaking carries a somewhat
childish feel to it, an adult male could use the "chimau" form to sound more
masculine. Ex: tabete shimau = tabechimau
> "Tottemo" was easy to find. The trouble is that "toru" has so
> many different meanings I am not certain which one is intended here.
"tottemo" is not "totte + mo", but rather "totemo" with a glottal stop
(written with a small "tsu") for emphasis. You can do the same with the
word "daikirai" say, and add a glottal stop, making it "daikkirai" when you
really dislike something.
> Is "icchatte" related to "chau?" Chau-ing once?
This is "itte shimau." In this case, the meaning is something like "I said
too much," or "said something that I shouldn't have."
> The first refrain goes:
>
> hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
>
> What is "hoppen?" I also can't find "chu" anywhere, although if
> it is a variant of "chuu" it would make sense in context - saying that
> after the quarrel one should seek the "middle" ground. Also, does anyone
> have any idea why the word "chu" was written in Romanji with furigana?
"Hoppen" is most likely "hoppe" or cheek, also commonly "hoppeta". This
could be a typo (bad romanization) or a regional dialect??
"Chuu" is the onomatopoeia for a kiss, and is commonly written in katakana
(as are many sound symbolisms).
> The second refrain goes:
>
> hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
> hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
> hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
>
> What is "miteru?" If it is anything like "miseru" it might make
> sense: "honorable Mister Sun becomes visible from that time on."
More contractions. These are the words "mite + iru", (is + looking). The
"i" is commonly dropped in informal speech. Ex: Tabete + iru = tabeteru.
> The second verse begins:
>
> kenka no ato wa samishii na
> What is "samishii?"
Samishii is another way of saying "sabishii".
> The third refrain begins:
>
> hoppen ni chu TONPOPO ga miteru kara
>
> The "tonpopo" is written in katakana. I am drawing a blank.
> Anyone have a clue?
This is most certainly a typo of "tampopo", the word for dandelions.
I have taken the liberty of translating the lyrics and adding them to the
end of this e-mail. If you want to translate them yourself without any
help, don't scroll down. Otherwise, I hope I have helped you.... Feel free
to e-mail me with any other questions you might have.
Best regards,
Michael Rubida
> Kenka no ato wa kanashii na
> namida ga ippai kobore chau
> hontoo wa tottemo suki na noni
> kirai da nante icchatte
I'm sad after a fight
Having spilled so many tears
Even though I really like you
I said that I hate you
> hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
> hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
After a fight a kiss on the cheek
After a fight a kiss on the cheek
A kiss on the cheek, but it's a little embarrassing
> hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
> hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
> hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
A kiss on the cheek, because the sun is watching
A kiss on the cheek, because the sun is watching
A kiss on the cheek, but it's a little embarrassing
> kenka no ato wa samishii na
After a fight, I'm lonely
> hoppen ni chu TONPOPO ga miteru kara
A kiss on the cheek, because the dandelions are watching
Gerald B Mathias
: Hello Chris!
: I saw your post and thought that I might be able to help:
: [...]
: "tottemo" is not "totte + mo", but rather "totemo" with a glottal stop
: (written with a small "tsu") for emphasis. You can do the same with the
: word "daikirai" say, and add a glottal stop, making it "daikkirai" when you
: really dislike something.
That would be kind of a dirty trick on Chris, if he believes you and tries
to put glottal stops in the middle of "tottemo" and "daikirai."
I suppose there *could* be a language that puts glottal stops in front of
other consonants in the middle of words, though I haven't heard of one
yet. There would be an awfully strong incentive to assimilate it to the
sound of the following consonant.
Bart
: > Kenka no ato wa kanashii na
: > namida ga ippai kobore chau
: > hontoo wa tottemo suki na noni
: > kirai da nante icchatte
: I'm sad after a fight
: Having spilled so many tears
: Even though I really like you
: I said that I hate you
: > hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
: > hoppen ni chu kenka no ato wa
: > hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
: After a fight a kiss on the cheek
: After a fight a kiss on the cheek
: A kiss on the cheek, but it's a little embarrassing
: > hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
: > hoppen ni chu o-hi-sama ga miteru kara
: > hoppen ni chu demo chotto hazukashii
: A kiss on the cheek, because the sun is watching
: A kiss on the cheek, because the sun is watching
: A kiss on the cheek, but it's a little embarrassing
: > kenka no ato wa samishii na
: After a fight, I'm lonely
: > hoppen ni chu TONPOPO ga miteru kara
: A kiss on the cheek, because the dandelions are watching
--
The most crucial difference between British and American English
is this: In the U.S., if you walk on the "pavement," you might
get smoggered by a car. In England, you're likely to get smoggered
by a car if you *don't* walk on the pavement. --Buck A. Yarrow
Lei Tanabe
Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7kmadf$i...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>Michael Rubida (mru...@macol.net) wrote:
>: "tottemo" is not "totte + mo", but rather "totemo" with a glottal stop
>: (written with a small "tsu") for emphasis. You can do the same with the
>: word "daikirai" say, and add a glottal stop, making it "daikkirai" when
you
>: really dislike something.
>
>That would be kind of a dirty trick on Chris, if he believes you and tries
>to put glottal stops in the middle of "tottemo" and "daikirai."
>
>I suppose there *could* be a language that puts glottal stops in front of
>other consonants in the middle of words, though I haven't heard of one
>yet. There would be an awfully strong incentive to assimilate it to the
>sound of the following consonant.
On the other hand, when you really like something (someone), you say
"daaisuki".
Lei
Gerald B Mathias
: >Michael Rubida (mru...@macol.net) wrote:
: >: [...]
: >: (written with a small "tsu") for emphasis. You can do the same with the
: >: word "daikirai" say [...] and making it "daikkirai" when you
: >: really dislike something.
: On the other hand, when you really like something (someone), you say
: "daaisuki".
This is a very interesting observation! I wonder if it is a genuine
phenomenon, with other manifestations in Japanese?
Bart
Allan Lawrie
>
> : I saw your post and thought that I might be able to help:
>
> : [...]
>
> : really dislike something.
>
> to put glottal stops in the middle of "tottemo" and "daikirai."
What? No daidaidaikirai...?
Allan.
Benjamin Franz
Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:>: >: [...]
>: >: (written with a small "tsu") for emphasis. You can do the same with the
>: >: word "daikirai" say [...] and making it "daikkirai" when you
>: >: really dislike something.
>
>: On the other hand, when you really like something (someone), you say
>: "daaisuki".
>
>This is a very interesting observation! I wonder if it is a genuine
>phenomenon, with other manifestations in Japanese?
(Assuming you mean the vowel stretch and not some more subtle
observation beyond my abilities)
The vowel stretch seems to be a form of emphasis in general usage. I
can recall hearing 'tottemo' streched out to 'toottemo'. And
'haii' for 'hai'. And 'mootto' for 'motto'. And I am reasonably
sure I've heard 'daaikirai'. I'm sure with a little thought I could
come up with other examples. Thinking about it though,
it seems to be used by 'young people', female more than male. A 'cute'
kind of emphasis?
The other emphasis form I've heard is 'repeated prefixing': daidaikirai.
Mmmm...The vowel stretch occurs in English as well: 'I Reeaally hate that'.
--
Benjamin Franz
Lei Tanabe
Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7kp2p2$m...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>: >: (written with a small "tsu") for emphasis. You can do the same with
the
>: >: word "daikirai" say [...] and making it "daikkirai" when you
>: >: really dislike something.
>
>: On the other hand, when you really like something (someone), you say
>: "daaisuki".
>
>This is a very interesting observation! I wonder if it is a genuine
>phenomenon, with other manifestations in Japanese?
These types of colloquial emphasis appear not only in Japanese but also in
English.
As to emphasis by extending a vowel sound, there's "veeeeery" for "
とーーーっても tooooooottemo", "loooooong" for "ながーーーーい nagaaaaaai",
"biiiiiig" for "おーーーーきい ooooookii", "goooood" for "いーーーーい
iiiiiiii"etc.
These are to emphasize amount/size.
The other way of emphasis by a cutting sound includes "Yep!" for "はいっ hai
+ small tsu", "Shut up!" for "だまれっ damare + small tsu", "Yuck!" for "
きっもち悪い kitmochiwarui", etc.
These are to state something positively/definitely.
Lei
Gerald B Mathias
: Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7kp2p2$m...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
I should have expanded. What I found interesting was the apparent
equation of consonant-lengthening with a negative judgement and a
vowel-lengthening for a positive judgement.
If "daaaikirai" is a normal as "daikkirai," then there is a new dimension
to the interestingness--presumably a subtle nuance.
I can't imagine getting the fourth corner with "daissuki," but it may be
because I don't listen to TV enough. Are "daaaikirai" and "daissuki"
Japanese?
Bart
--
The Australians, Chinese, et. al., are clearly correct in their
belief that south is "up." If north were "up," then the solar
system and our galaxy would be rotating *counter*clockwise.
What a weird universe *that* would be! -- Buck A. Yarrow
Lei Tanabe
Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7l0hv4$9...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>I should have expanded. What I found interesting was the apparent
>equation of consonant-lengthening with a negative judgement and a
>vowel-lengthening for a positive judgement.
>
>If "daaaikirai" is a normal as "daikkirai," then there is a new dimension
>to the interestingness--presumably a subtle nuance.
>
>I can't imagine getting the fourth corner with "daissuki," but it may be
>because I don't listen to TV enough. Are "daaaikirai" and "daissuki"
>Japanese?
A vowel-lengthening works to emphasize quantity of feelings and a cutting (a
consonant-lengthening?) works to emphasize strength/definition.
I don't think these are related to negative/positive judgements. Only
because negative feelings are often acute, this strong and definitive way of
emphasis is used.
As to emphasis of "daisuki" and "daikirai", "daaaisuki" and "daikkirai" are
common, but also "daissuki" and "daaaikirai" are possible with different
nuances.
"daaisuki/daaikirai" is like "I like/hate it very much." and
"daissuki/daikkirai" is like "I LIKE/HATE it!"
Lei
H. Takahashi
>(snip)
> because I don't listen to TV enough. Are "daaaikirai" and "daissuki"
> Japanese?
I have never heard "daissuki."(And I think I can't pronounce it.)
As for "daaaikirai," I often hear the word thrown at me. :-)
Hiro Takahashi,
Gerald B Mathias
: Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7l0hv4$9...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
: >I should have expanded. What I found interesting was the apparent
: >equation of consonant-lengthening with a negative judgement and a
: >vowel-lengthening for a positive judgement.
: >
: >If "daaaikirai" is a normal as "daikkirai," then there is a new dimension
: >to the interestingness--presumably a subtle nuance.
: A vowel-lengthening works to emphasize quantity of feelings and a cutting (a
: consonant-lengthening?) works to emphasize strength/definition.
: I don't think these are related to negative/positive judgements. Only
: because negative feelings are often acute, this strong and definitive way of
: emphasis is used.
: As to emphasis of "daisuki" and "daikirai", "daaaisuki" and "daikkirai" are
: common, but also "daissuki" and "daaaikirai" are possible with different
: nuances.
: "daaisuki/daaikirai" is like "I like/hate it very much." and
: "daissuki/daikkirai" is like "I LIKE/HATE it!"
Expanding worked! It apparently is two dimensional (although Hiro
Takahashi supports my reaction to "daissuki," I think he and I probably
just don't talk and listen to the right people).
It isn't a simple matter, though. At least with certain kinds of words,
consonant lengthening works, but I'm sure vowel lengthening is impossible.
yappari, for sure. yaahari?
mattaku, for sure. maataku?
masshiro, for sure. maashiro?
tatta (ima/hitotsu). taada (ima/hitotsu)?
Bart
--
The Australians, Chinese, et. al., are clearly correct in their
belief that south is "up." If north were "up," then the solar
system and our galaxy would be rotating *counter*clockwise.
What a silly universe *that* would be! -- Buck A. Yarrow
Syun
>Lei Tanabe (l...@clear.net.nz) wrote:
>: A vowel-lengthening works to emphasize quantity of feelings and a cutting (a
>: consonant-lengthening?) works to emphasize strength/definition.
>: I don't think these are related to negative/positive judgements. Only
>: because negative feelings are often acute, this strong and definitive way of
>: emphasis is used.
>
>: As to emphasis of "daisuki" and "daikirai", "daaaisuki" and "daikkirai" are
>: common, but also "daissuki" and "daaaikirai" are possible with different
>: nuances.
>: "daaisuki/daaikirai" is like "I like/hate it very much." and
>: "daissuki/daikkirai" is like "I LIKE/HATE it!"
>
>
>Expanding worked! It apparently is two dimensional (although Hiro
>Takahashi supports my reaction to "daissuki," I think he and I probably
>just don't talk and listen to the right people).
>
>It isn't a simple matter, though. At least with certain kinds of words,
>consonant lengthening works, but I'm sure vowel lengthening is impossible.
>
> yappari, for sure. yaahari?
> mattaku, for sure. maataku?
> masshiro, for sure. maashiro?
> tatta (ima/hitotsu). taada (ima/hitotsu)?
I also don't think vowel-lengthening and consonant-lengthening are related to
negative/positive judgements. They just work to emphasize speaker's feelings.
If I intend to emphasize the feeling of "daikirai", I can say "daaikirai",
"daikkirai" and "daaikkirai". They all means emphasized "daikirai".
I don't know how I choose vowel-lengthening or consonant-lengthening.
Maybe I take a whim to choose one of them. Possibly, unconsiously I may say
not "daaikirai" but "daikkirai" (vice versa) in some case in some reason.
Anyway, I don't find sure difference between "daaikirai" and "daikkirai", if
I say/hear them in same tone. It seems that consonant-lengthening easily works
to make the word be crisp, but it's not so effective on the degree of emphasis.
I feel "daaikirai" and "daikkirai" are like both "I hate it very much." and
"I HATE it!". Am I explaining the almost same thing with Lei?
Of course I consiously choose "daaikkirai"
to add more emphasis, expecting the effect of double-emphasis.
And I can say as follows for best emphasis. Although I feel funny :-).
daaaaikirai
daikkkkkirai(I mean long space between dai and kirai. Clearly bad Romaji usage.)
daaaaikkkkkirai(I spell it as "だーーーいっっっきらい"
or "だあああいっっっきらい")
BTW, as for the ohter possibility,
daiikirai(Possible but I may not say)
daikiirai(I believe nobody say)
daikiraai(Possible)
daikiraii(Other kind of vowel-lengthening, not for emphasis, methinks)
daikirrai(I believe nobody say)
I'm not a linguist but it seems that vowel-lengthening mainly occurs at the
first vowel and consonant-lengthening mainly occurs at the first consonant
except for a consonant at the head of the word.
I'm interested in Gerald's(Bart's?) special examples. And I found "g" and "n"
make the other special examples.
There must be more exceptions.
I can't explain the reason why "daikiraai" is possible.
When I intend to emphasize "kirai" I don't say "kiirai" but say "kiraai".
Based upon this rule(?), as for the words above and some additional words,
B/F | V/L | C/L |REMARK
---------+-----------+-------------+--------------------------------------
daisuki | daaisuki |*daissuki |
daikirai | daaikirai | daikkirai |Additionally "daikiraai" is possible
yahari |!yaahari |!yahhari |"yappari" is possible
| | |(Substitute "pp" for "hh")
mattaku | maattaku | @ |
mashiro |!maashiro | masshiro |I think "masshiro" is the B/F nowadays
tada |!taada |!tadda |"tatta" is possible
| | |(Substitute "tt" for "dd")
---------+-----------+-------------+--------------------------------------
sugoi | suugoi | suggoi |Additionally "sungoi" is possible
monosugoi| moonosugoi|*monnosugoi(もっのすごい)|
| | |Additionally "mon'nosugoi(もんのすごい)"
| | |is possible
LEGEND:
B/F : Basic Form
V/L : Vowel-Lengthening
C/L : Consonant-Lengthening
* : I believe nobody say(hard to pronounce), but possible in (funny) writings
! : I believe nobody say/write
@ : Already consonant repeated
not marked : No problem
"monnosugoi" for "もっのすごい" is bad Romaji usage.
"mon'nosugoi" for "もんのすごい" may be not good Romaji usage.
Again, there must be more exceptions, and there are more examples
And these words are mainly used in colloquialism and particular writings
among familiar friends. Furthermore, some native Japanese speaker may not
agree with this.
Sorry for my using Japanese fonts, if you can't see them.
Sorry for the difficuly for seeing the table, if you use proportional fonts.
Sorry for the late reaction.
--
Syun
Gerald B Mathias
[takusan habukimashita, daaaaiisssukkkiiii-na-no-ni...)
: I'm not a linguist
Are you sure? This looks like a pretty good piece of analysis.
: but it seems that vowel-lengthening mainly occurs at the
: first vowel and consonant-lengthening mainly occurs at the first consonant
: except for a consonant at the head of the word.
[...]
: Based upon this rule(?), as for the words above and some additional words,
: B/F | V/L | C/L |REMARK
: ---------+-----------+-------------+--------------------------------------
: daisuki | daaisuki |*daissuki |
: daikirai | daaikirai | daikkirai |Additionally "daikiraai" is possible
: yahari |!yaahari |!yahhari |"yappari" is possible
: | | |(Substitute "pp" for "hh")
Presumably this doubling goes back to a time in some dialect before "p"
changed to "h."
: mattaku | maattaku | @ |
Probably the long "t" form replaced the short one before ?"mataki/mataku"
--> ?"matai/?mataku(/matoo)." "mattaki" and "mattaku" go back several
centuries.
: mashiro |!maashiro | masshiro |I think "masshiro" is the B/F nowadays
I probably shouldn't have used this example. The color words are special:
"ma" + "aka" --> "makka," "ma" + "ao" --> "massao." "Masiro" shows up in
Old Japanese, but I'm not sure about the other "pure" colors.
: tada |!taada |!tadda |"tatta" is possible
: | | |(Substitute "tt" for "dd")
I suspect that when "tatta" developed, "tt" was the only way to pronounce
"dd." Most people my age used to say "betto" (= shindai), "handobakku,"
etc.
: ---------+-----------+-------------+--------------------------------------
: sugoi | suugoi | suggoi |Additionally "sungoi" is possible
And I'm sure I've heard "suggoi" come out "sukkoi."
Omoshirooooi! (For some reason, I cannot say "omoshiroooookatta" or any
other emphatic version of "omoshirokatta.")
Bart
Syun
Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <7lr6gk$4...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>Syun (syu...@anet.ne.jp) wrote:
>: I'm not a linguist
I'm a mere Modern-Japanese speaker.
So, I'm not so good at Old-Japanese :-)
Obviously you can explain about them better than me.
I can't give any more opinion especially on "mattaku".
However, I guess I'm sharing same sense with you in various points.
>: but it seems that vowel-lengthening mainly occurs at the
>: first vowel and consonant-lengthening mainly occurs at the first consonant
>: except for a consonant at the head of the word.
>[...]
>: Based upon this rule(?), as for the words above and some additional words,
>
>: B/F | V/L | C/L |REMARK
>: ---------+-----------+-------------+--------------------------------------
>: daisuki | daaisuki |*daissuki |
>: daikirai | daaikirai | daikkirai |Additionally "daikiraai" is possible
>: yahari |!yaahari |!yahhari |"yappari" is possible
>: | | |(Substitute "pp" for "hh")
>
>Presumably this doubling goes back to a time in some dialect before "p"
>changed to "h."
>: mattaku | maattaku | @ |
>
>Probably the long "t" form replaced the short one before ?"mataki/mataku"
>--> ?"matai/?mataku(/matoo)." "mattaki" and "mattaku" go back several
>centuries.
>
>: mashiro |!maashiro | masshiro |I think "masshiro" is the B/F nowadays
>
>I probably shouldn't have used this example. The color words are special:
>"ma" + "aka" --> "makka," "ma" + "ao" --> "massao." "Masiro" shows up in
>Old Japanese, but I'm not sure about the other "pure" colors.
>
>: tada |!taada |!tadda |"tatta" is possible
>: | | |(Substitute "tt" for "dd")
>
>I suspect that when "tatta" developed, "tt" was the only way to pronounce
>"dd." Most people my age used to say "betto" (= shindai), "handobakku,"
>etc.
>: ---------+-----------+-------------+--------------------------------------
>: sugoi | suugoi | suggoi |Additionally "sungoi" is possible
>
>And I'm sure I've heard "suggoi" come out "sukkoi."
>
>Omoshirooooi! (For some reason, I cannot say "omoshiroooookatta" or any
>other emphatic version of "omoshirokatta.")
Bart ttara suggoku monoshiri nanda kara!
--
Syun
p.s. O[o/m/n]moshirokatta yo!
p.s.2 I hope you don't mind my impolite way of writing.