gimu and giri

[tie...@my-deja.com]

I'm proofreading a book that mentions these nihongo words -- but the
author suggests connotations of shame that my piddly little dictionary
doesn't suggest. My little dictionary only says they mean "obligation;
duty" and "moral obligation". Can anyone confirm whether or not there
are connotations of shame associated with these words?

Now that I think about it, I think he means the shame of -not-
fulfilling one's duty. I'm still not sure that the words giri and gimu
would be appropriate. I'm querying the author on it, but would
appreciate any input you could offer (now more for my own curiosity
*G*). Is there a word or term for "the shame of not fulfilling one's
duty"?

I really need a better dictionary...

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[muchan]

tie...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I'm proofreading a book that mentions these nihongo words -- but the
> author suggests connotations of shame that my piddly little dictionary
> doesn't suggest. My little dictionary only says they mean "obligation;
> duty" and "moral obligation". Can anyone confirm whether or not there
> are connotations of shame associated with these words?
>

I don't think "shame" is associated with "giri".
(Whereas "gimu" IMHO, is quite different sphare with "shame", etc.)

The difference are shown with the verb "associated" with these words.

"gimu(-o hatas.u)" : to fullfill the obligation
"giri(-o kak.u)" : ... (???how would you say it???)

"giri" as "moral obligation", seems me mismatching. I'd say something
"owing", or "social expectation that you are thought to owe something
to someone". In the case of "giri-gatai" people, like Jirochoo, etc.,
the "giri" is felt as "moral obligation". ;)

"shame" is associated to the corresponding "pride". So those who are
proud of fullfilling every "social expectation", not doing "giri" is
felt as "shame"... now question is if every, or most of, Japanese
people are so proud of fullfilling every "giri".. IMHO, we are rather
tired of mental burden and evaluate every case, if it's not so fatal
to pass it through or not...

> Now that I think about it, I think he means the shame of -not-
> fulfilling one's duty. I'm still not sure that the words giri and gimu
> would be appropriate. I'm querying the author on it, but would
> appreciate any input you could offer (now more for my own curiosity
> *G*). Is there a word or term for "the shame of not fulfilling one's
> duty"?
>
> I really need a better dictionary...
>

"Kao-o tsubusu", "menboku-nai", etc...

muchan

[Nobby Miura]

OK, let me try on this.

GIMU:
Obligation which is imposed often by law or regulations or based on your
position in society/company.

GIRI:
Obligation which is imposed often by relationships with other people and
based on moral judgement.

Of course, it is not this clear cut and they overlap somewhat.

Nobby Miura

[great...@yahoo.com]

There is another aspect to giri that I have not seen mentioned here. Giri is a social obligation to ones superiors in a fanatical, self sacrificing way. Despite this attitude of constant deference to another, it was understood giri will never be paid off as it sticks with you for life, (a life debt). A samurai of ancient Japan owed giri to his lord, and as such would have never been released from his duty to his lord.

[muchan]

I don't think "giri" means obligation only "to ones superiors".

(I recommend you reading some/many of Dazai's short stories.)
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000035/card2269.html
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/index_pages/person35.html

muchan

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2000 at 9:00:00 PM UTC-10, tie...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I'm proofreading a book that mentions these nihongo words -- but the
> author suggests connotations of shame that my piddly little dictionary
> doesn't suggest. My little dictionary only says they mean "obligation;
> duty" and "moral obligation". Can anyone confirm whether or not there
> are connotations of shame associated with these words?
>

> Now that I think about it, I think he means the shame of -not-
> fulfilling one's duty. I'm still not sure that the words giri and gimu
> would be appropriate. I'm querying the author on it, but would
> appreciate any input you could offer (now more for my own curiosity
> *G*). Is there a word or term for "the shame of not fulfilling one's
> duty"?
>
> I really need a better dictionary...
>
>

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about GIRI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_(Japanese)

[rbb...@gmail.com]

On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 5:27:10 AM UTC-5, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

> Here is what Wikipedia has to say about GIRI:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_(Japanese)

This quote: "Giri is a social obligation to ones superiors in a fanatical, self sacrificing way" seems to come from a novel (https://books.google.com/books?id=nvksDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA281&lpg=PA281&dq="to+serve+one's+superiors+with+a+self-sacrificing+devotion"), although it is attributed to Namiko Abe in the Wikipedia article. I don't know who Namiko Abe is, or if the quote actually comes from her, or is original to the novel. Nothing like the quote appears in the Japanese Wikipedia page for 義理. I would take the quotation with a rather large grain of salt. It smacks of unjustified exoticism to me.

[Ben Bullock]

I remember only recently that we found out that Wikipedia seemed to have invented its own form of Japanese romanisation, and now we find that it has invented new meanings for Japanese words.

Perhaps it is not a reliable source of information.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

What this recent book says about GIRI may be of interest:

https://books.google.com/books?id=6DnRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT110&dq=giri+japan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjml8mx7qfSAhUpqVQKHVx1BW0Q6AEIKjAD#v=onepage&q=giri%20japan&f=false